Latest / We Can Do Better / Policies that Work for Caregivers Benefit Us All
Transcript
- Fran Quigley: Hello and welcome to We Can Do Better, a podcast about ending poverty in our time. My name is Fran Quigley. I'm a law professor, and I go with my students and colleagues every week to eviction court. There we represent some of the millions of people in this country who are facing the loss of their homes, and who also skip filling prescriptions and are also way too often even going hungry, despite living in the richest nation in the world. Hence the title of this podcast We Can Do Better. So we lift up the many people and organizations who are working to make housing and healthcare and a decent life enforceable human rights for all. And this week we're going to talk about Medicaid and SNAP, supplemental nutrition assistance program, also known as food stamps. And there's new research from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities that shows that one in every three people who are applying for SNAP benefits are denied, not because they're not eligible. But because they don't make it through the complex red tape process. Even worse, millions of Americans right now are facing losing their Medicaid health insurance under new work work rules that are going to begin in January. We're going to have some links in the show notes about past articles about these red tape work requirements. But here to talk about this crisis today, we have an expert and we are excited to welcome to the show Danielle Atkinson. Ms. Atkinson is the executive director of Mothering Justice Action Fund. which is an organization that activates the collective power of mothers to advance policies that improve the well-being of mothers and caregivers and families. So Danielle, welcome to the show. Danielle Atkinson: Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Fran. Fran Quigley: Well, thank you for your important work. And and before we talk specifically about the the Medicaid and Snap crisis, can you tell listeners a little bit about the the work of Mothering Justice Action Fund? Danielle Atkinson: Yes, I would love to again. Thank you so much for the work that you do. And then also, you know, highlighting Mothering Justice and Mothering Justice Action Fund. So I started, I'm the founder and I started Mothering Justice Mothering Justice's Action Fund sister about 13 years ago. and this was right after my daughter was born. I was just, you know, my she was 18. She's 18 now. But when she was when I was pregnant and when she was born, I was going through all the things like one, I I got pregnant when I was between jobs. So my pregnancy was a pre-existing condition at the time. That's before Obamacare. And so I was on Medicaid when I had her. And then I was kicked off of Medicaid the day after she was born because moms don't count. Fran Quigley: Yeah, I don't know. Danielle Atkinson: that law has also been changed. But you know, that really was the the impetus for why why is it like this? You know, I say that I put on my mom-colored glasses and I said that I saw the world in a completely different way, and I realized that even though I had been an organizer my whole professional career, that I was the person who needed an organizer, I was the person Fran Quigley: Mm. Danielle Atkinson: who needed an organization that represented my lived experience. but also joy, the joy of motherhood, the joy of these decisions and the family and the community that we're building, but also how hard it is, right? And so started Mothering Justice, and then eight years ago we started Mothering Justice Action Fund, which is the political organization, to be really explicit about the policies that we want to see happen. you know, our process is about listening to moms. making sure they understand that these issues have a collective solution. They're systemic problems and we have a collective solution. We build the leadership of individual moms, but also our collective voice. And we work to organize, organize beyond elections, right? So we are definitely active in this time. But then how are we holding our newly elected officials accountable? For the commitments that they made on the trail and also what we need as families. Fran Quigley: That's great. And in in past episodes of of our podcast, we have talked with folks about raising the minimum wage. We've talked to folks about paid sick time, et cetera. Those are topics near and dear to your heart and you've actually won fights on those. Can can you tell folks Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Fran Quigley: about the fights you've won on minimum wage and paid sick leave? Danielle Atkinson: Yeah, so we have what we call the mama's agenda. And these are the issues that came to us from our membership. We like to say we're a participatory organization. So that means that our members pick our issues and then they also pick the direction of the campaigns. So this includes paid leave, minimum wage, basic needs, affordable child care. these are these are what we lobby for on a regular basis. And so paid Sick time was something that we've been working on since the beginning. Moms continue to tell us how important it is to have paycheck security when somebody is sick because guess what? Someone's always sick. Someone's always sick. Fran Quigley: Right. Danielle Atkinson: And so we did a ballot initiative to have paid sick days. Then the legislature did what they do best, which is get in the way of democracy sometimes. Fran Quigley: Yes. Danielle Atkinson: And undermined that. And then we were in the courts. We had to sue everybody. and eventually we we established the first paid sick time law in Michigan, working on paid family medical leave right now. Yeah. Fran Quigley: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's great, right? That is just amazing and so important. As you said, everybody's always sick. We talk about the folks you face in it in eviction court. They've been making things work, they've been holding things together, but then somebody got sick, or there's a death in the family, Danielle Atkinson: Yes. Fran Quigley: is a car breakdown, or or hours. Something always happens, but the something always happens is so often somebody gets sick, Danielle Atkinson: Yes. Fran Quigley: and if you can't take time off work, you lose the job or you bring your sickness to work. That's huge, Daniel. Thank you for doing that. Danielle Atkinson: 100%, 100%. And it's just like the most human thing in the world is to get sick. And some of us have time to get well and some of us don't. And that is the problem, right? and then we also increase the minimum wage twice here in Michigan. Again, ballot initiative initiated, citizen initiated ballot initiative. because again, two-thirds of the people making minimum wage are adults, most of whom are supporting families. this was not only a practical issue when we're talking about beating poverty, which everybody knows, but it's also about affirming the value of work, right? You know, we love to make these distinctions, really all of us, and we have to constantly be rewriting the narrative. it really doesn't matter how progressive you are, about what what a job having a job means and what is a good job, right? And if I'm flipping burgers versus rocket science scientists, both require you to leave your family, both Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Danielle Atkinson: require you to take time away from the things that you need to get done, both things contribute to society. So, what is the value of work and what does it mean for someone to make a living wage when they leave their house so that they can support their family? And so that affirmation was really, really important to us to drill home because that is the basis for all of these rights that we are fighting for is are we valuing human time and human beings and letting people be caregivers? Fran Quigley: That's wonderful. And you say it so beautifully. Thank you. And we are gonna put a link in the show notes to Mothering Justice Action Fund's website, but it is motheringjusticeaction.org, all one word, Mothering Justice Action. Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Fran Quigley: Is that correct? Danielle Atkinson: I believe so. Isn't that horrible that I don't know? It's such a millennial. But Fran Quigley: Okay, that's why I had to look at myself. So we'll put the link. People don't actually type in the URLs anymore. They just link. They just click on Danielle Atkinson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one types it anymore. Fran Quigley: a link. So but it which does have you know a nice recitation of all the work you have done, all the priorities that that you've been working on now. And again, I love the title of it and I love as you say, you changed it to being just such a focus on justice and action and not Not charity, not short term service. Bless Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Fran Quigley: the people who do that. But you're trying to, you're making systemic big picture changes and raising people's wages and getting access to sick leave is just so impactful. So thank you for all of that. But now you're fighting unfortunately we're we're fighting a little bit on on the defense, right? Because there's some h Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Fran Quigley: horrible things coming down from the federal government, which might you can correct me, but I think they come it's the origin story is when the one big beautiful bill act and last year where we knew it was horrible, but now it's actually getting ready to start having huge impact on people's lives. So can you talk a little bit about the the Medicaid and the SNAP impacts of of that legislation and and how that's getting ready to start and in some ways already is starting to impact real families in in our communities? Danielle Atkinson: Yeah, the w I w I wish we could all get get around a good horrible name for for what happened, but you know HR one has we have yet to see all of the ramifications of the cuts. but you know it it looks like we're gonna lose thirteen point one million people by twenty thirty-five if you know something isn't done about this off of Medicaid. And we're talking about just the most substantial need for health insurance is who is relying on Medicaid. We did a survey I think two years ago, talking to moms about how they utilize services, and over 50 percent, you know, are are utilizing one of these services, either SNAP or Medicaid, and they they and and I think 90% said it would be detrimental if it was cut and it was taken away. And on its face, right? Like let's be real. The narrative is is very very alluring, right? Like the idea like people should work if they if they want benefits and we people can't rely on this forever. And we have a national debt. But if you really go into it, if you really think about what we're doing. We're taking away an essential service to the people who are the most vulnerable. That doesn't stop the need, that just transfers it to an individual burden and putting more pressure on our emergency services. I was at a briefing by the United Way, and they have they study the Alice population, which is income restricted. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Danielle Atkinson: Lord, I mess it up every time. But it's the donut hole, right? It's people. Yeah. Thank you. That acronym everdone. Fran Quigley: I I can't remember that Alice. I'll I'll look it up while you're talking. I'll look up the Alice acronym because I yeah, I forget it too. Danielle Atkinson: But it's people who make above poverty, but don't have enough to make ends meet. and really studying this population, they are they are trying to tell us all that that we're headed towards a crisis. We are putting our emergency services in a position that they've never been in before before and that they cannot handle. And this means people will die. Children will die. and so you know, I like to say that, you know, buying fewer life jackets doesn't prevent people from drowning. We have to make learning to swim more accessible. So why we need to double down on these services, and then we also need to provide pathways for people. to to have more to have more access to jobs that that allow them to have health insurance and that they're in a more financial stable place so that they won't be reliant on these emergency services. But eliminating and making it harder is not the answer. Fran Quigley: No, no. And to put it to come back to it, asset limited, income constrained, employed, which is I would I would not have remembered that. But as as you say, these are folks Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Asset limited income construction. Fran Quigley: who are working. These are folks who who are doing important jobs in the community. It's always stunning to me how many people we see being evicted who are working in caring and caring. Sometimes it's non-paid carrying work, but sometimes Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Fran Quigley: it's care paid carrying work. They're home care providers, etc. So The number of people we see in eviction court wearing scrubs, they're working Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Fran Quigley: hard at important jobs and we're just not paying them enough to to literally pay their rent. But and I just I wanted to circle back to what you said too about the 13.1 million people that that we expect to lose their health insurance. And you mentioned that the implications that they're people are going to get sick and people are gonna die. I was doing third you're based in Michigan, which is a huge state. But the population is less than thirteen million. So this is like every single woman, man and child in the state of Michigan, and then three million more people, all losing their health insurance. This is what Danielle Atkinson: Exactly. Thank you so much for that, for that context and that picture. yeah, and in Michigan, we did away with work requirements. I can't even remember the year, because we realized that one, it's it's it's counterintuitive, it's it's not productive, and it's not saving anybody money. think about, you know, if we think about other services that we have decided are for the common good and education, could you imagine? A child only being eligible for public school if their parents were working. What are the Fran Quigley: It's just yeah. Danielle Atkinson: long-term ramifications for that? Medicaid is this preventative service, the same preventative service as an education would be for poverty, right? It is about prenatal visits, it's about it's about pediatric visits, it's about postpartum visits. and then we were talking about two-thirds. sorry, black women are three times more likely to pass away than their white counterparts in that. And those deaths happen after a baby is born. That's where they're Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Danielle Atkinson: the most vulnerable. And you're talking about restricting those services and you have to have a job. Guess what? It's really hard to have a job. When you have a newborn Fran Quigley: Yeah, yeah. Danielle Atkinson: and you're physically recovering from labor, God forbid there were any complications. So Fran Quigley: Right. Danielle Atkinson: it's you know, if any this is also why I'm sorry, I'm ADHD and I'll go all over the place. But this is why we need more moms and caregivers in office because they would look at this just on its face and say, this doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense for the people that are taking care of our communities and our society and our loved ones, whether they be elder or or young, because again, those those caretakers are getting paid just they're not getting paid a living wage. So to take away this or to make it harder. is is is going to be detrimental to not only the individual family but the community in our country. Fran Quigley: That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And and and no, I think you're being completely consistent because as you say, and I think that's your organization's position, is we can't just look at these things in isolation. These are these are big picture policy decisions that that are destabilizing communities, destabilizing families, and harming people to the point of even even death. so you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I I think that the work requirement, which again, as you say, if you people don't look too closely, why will that course that makes sense? So it's Adult age six 19 to 64, they have to complete 80 hours a month of approved activities, which can be work, it can be volunteer, et cetera. and so, that may sound like that's not too much. Of course, why should they? And the truth of the matter is, I think the data on past work requirements, as you said, Michigan got rid of it, a lot of places got rid of it because it is not effective that most of the people who are losing the benefits are working or are living with a disability and should be exempt from the requirement. But the red tape captures them. Maybe the the getting the notice to the address they're not there anymore, or not understanding these incredibly opaque notices, or missing a deadline they weren't aware of, and people are getting kicked off. And as a result, you know, kids and and parents are gonna go without the medicine they're prescribed or or the the the doctor visit that they need. So so what's what the number so this is gonna roll out, you're gonna really is people are getting the notices and and across the country now saying that you've got to have these hours in of January? Danielle Atkinson: Yeah, J Yeah, they've already started for some folks, undocumented individuals are have already seen cuts. I think that was last month, but January 2027. you know, and we're gonna again see these, see the ramifications for months and years. And as I am, you know, I I do public policy, but as I look more and understand more public administration, just we are These these changes to how these agencies operate are really hard to just switch and cutting staff and changing requirements, and but you still have the same people coming to your door. So now you have to like figure out, okay, sorry, you're not eligible, but maybe you're eligible for here and maybe you go over here. We are making government less effective. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Danielle Atkinson: and it's it I sometimes I just have to like. sit with my head down because I'm like, what are we doing? Who are the who are the adults in the room making these making these assertions and then turning these assertions into policy? but we have to have, you know, more people like your students who are gonna have firsthand experience with with real people speaking up in all Fran Quigley: Right. Danielle Atkinson: the ways. Fran Quigley: Well, I appreciate that. And and I I love how you put that who are the adults in the room. So lots of times we have these conversations with folks, and and they're an organization that can't advocate politically and can't or make it can't push for systemic change, but they're trying to put a band-aid on a bullet wound, right? But you all advocate for systemic change and you have structured yourself so you can do so and you can talk about. So tell us, who should be the adults in the room and and what what Danielle Atkinson: Yes. Fran Quigley: can we do about this? This is happening. This is the law right now, as of you know, October of twenty twenty six, but we obviously don't want it to continue to be the law. So what what needs to change? Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Well, we have an election coming up. So that is first and foremost. I understand people's ideological beliefs about the election and and and whether or not it makes a difference, but I'm just gonna ask you to do it. Do it for Danielle. Go Fran Quigley: Ha ha. Danielle Atkinson: and vote for the person who is most likely to listen to experts. That's it. They don't need to be your best friend, they don't need to have always, you know, done the right thing, but We need to vote for people that groups like mine have access to who can say, these are your voters and they're upset. Okay, that's first and foremost. Two, we have to keep talking about these issues and bringing the expertise to elected officials. They're not experts. They are leaders, they have access and they have power. They're not necessarily subject matter experts, and they need to understand the nuances. Of what we're talking about because they have the ability to make small changes. They have obviously the ability to weigh in on big changes. And then the power of their offices have the ability to really make life-changing choices and services for their constituents. I have I I think when I really realized this was when Rashida Talib became a congresswoman. even when she was in the legislature, and I could just bring a problem to her. I'm like, hey, my Uber driver Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Danielle Atkinson: is facing deportation, And she's able to get on the phone, have five people mobilized to help this person. Working with another organization, a student leader was detained again, having the ability, Rashida calling our US senator who had the ability to stop the plane on the tarmac. Like that's That's what we're talking Fran Quigley: Wow. Danielle Atkinson: about when we're talking about access. so we have to keep talking about the nuances, the things that we see all the time. And then we need to mobilize people, we need to stay in the conversation. I know that it sucks to talk to someone who is ideologic ideologically opposed to you. but it's important that we keep talking about real life experiences, relating them to people's values, and then connecting them to our leadership. So that we're changing hearts and minds one at a time. And what I, I grew up in Orlando, went to a Southern Baptist church. So you can only imagine the my who my friends were and what they believe. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. Danielle Atkinson: But it's it's not always about changing their mind. It's also about neutralizing them. and so we have to be willing to stay in those conversations so that they can see the hypocrisy of their argument, so that they're like, you know what, maybe I'll just sit out. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe that's not a horrible thing. Maybe that in your instance, maybe that's not a horrible thing. So yeah. Yeah. And and Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah. That's right, but for you, that's I I like that for you. Yeah. Danielle Atkinson: I think the last thing is when we do all of these things, we're helping marginalized populations confront and combat their internalized oppression, which keeps them away from their power. And those are the ex those are the real experts, right? And for me and for the moms that I have you know talked to over the years, it's a shame. It's there's there's a shame around not affording childcare. There's a shame around getting an eviction notice. There's a shame around not understanding how to access services or I'm not qualified for the services. They that can be an indictment on your on that person. And and that that turns into internalized oppression, which prevents people from saying, hey. I deserve more. And this is my experience with this system. So when we speak these things, people like me can say, wow. Okay. So it's not just me. Okay, so it's a systems problem, not just my personal problem. Okay, Fran Quigley: Right. Right. Danielle Atkinson: I will talk to my elected official. I will talk to that candidate about these things now because I got these people who have my back. Fran Quigley: That's a I I really appreciate you saying that as if we we discussed before we hit record is that that we definitely see you know a lot of moms of color who are facing eviction, just like you say with struggling with the child care. But and sometimes we don't always see as the lawyers the the idea that you say that that they feel shame, but I do feel people hear hear people saying that, you know, this is a failure, or you know, I feel like I let my kids down. Well they're They're working, they're caring for their kids, they're doing everything they can. As you said, the system's letting them down. They're doing important work, valuable work in the community. As you said, why can't that be treated the same way we treat a rocket scientist, or at least someone who's a middle manager somewhere who makes a living wage, right? doesn't have to be rocket scientists' wages. Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. At least middle management. Fran Quigley: so what does the, you know, it what does the, you know, the the What does the political and maybe better to say the policy landscape look like? What should it look like for so that we can treat moms and their families with the appropriate respect and care? And you know, what you've you've campaigned for living wages and for paid sick leave, et cetera. And you talked about the importance of health insurance. Kind of just big picture, what would it look like or what should it look like in let's say 2032 or something like that if we we do treat these moms with the respect and give them the dignity and justice they deserve. what what would our communities look like then? Danielle Atkinson: Yeah, I I think our policy needs to center caregivers. and not even not even the act of caregiving. Caregivers, the people. I'm currently looking at the administrative burden on the sandwich generation, that population of people that are caring for elder adults and young children. because it's these if you if you look at it through that lens, through those eyes, none of it makes sense. I shouldn't be you the it shouldn't take me this long. These systems should talk to each other better. my time should be valued. And if we did that, if we really crafted policy based on the needs of caregivers, we all will do better, right? My children would have more of my time if I wasn't burdened By systems that don't think about how I'm operating. I would have more time to be in my head and my vision, which would translate into a better work product and a better, you know, more me contributing more to society. If I had more time on my hands, I could volunteer. I could be at my kids' school more, which again connects us as a society. Our communities are the heart of our society. And we need people to be able to do that. So just thinking about it that way, I think in 30 years we would be happier, we would be more connected, we would be more prosperous, not only financially, we more people would be stable, which is really the is how we should be looking at you know, our success as a nation, not how much money, but the wealth disparities. Not only in that respect, but we would be more fulfilled. and then we would also be able to contribute more internationally. And again, we that's not even again, first time I'm saying it. We need to be thinking about how we sit in a global society. And when individuals are in need, hierarchy of needs, we're only thinking about those individual needs. We're not able to have expansive thinking that allows Fran Quigley: Sure. Danielle Atkinson: us to think about the things that don't that we don't see touching us that will eventually have an effect on us. Fran Quigley: Right, right. Well that's that's really wonderfully put. Well, we are coming up on time, but I want to ask you, Mothering Justice Action Fund doing amazing work. I think our listeners are going to very much resonate with the the work that you're doing and and who you're organizing. but you're Michigan-based, but you're not just Michigan, right? So what if folks are listening Danielle Atkinson: Yeah. Fran Quigley: and they're outside Michigan and want to get connected to you all? How would they do that? Danielle Atkinson: Yes, we are we say that our roots are deep in Michigan. That's where we started, but we're a multi-state organization. So if people want to be involved, they obviously should follow us on all the social medias, but we have a lot of fellowships, they're learn-do fellowships, so people can learn about organizing and then take steps in their community with their folks. and that translates and connects to what we started with Rashida Talib, the Congressional Mama's Caucus. And that is a place where we are organizing with people who are moms, who care about moms, who have moms in Congress, to get deeper on these issues on a local level and also on a federal level. Fran Quigley: That's great. That's terrific. Well, unless you have more you want folks to know, I think that's a wonderful place to end. And we will absolutely put in the show notes for anybody looking at this, reading this, listening to it, that we will have the connection to Mother and Justice Action Fund, how you can get connected to Danielle and and all these wonderful folks. As you say, not just mothers, but all of us who have mothers or know mothers, who love mothers. so 'cause I love the way you center that if we if we value have policies that value caregivers, we're all gonna be winners, whether we are the ones who are direct caregivers or not. So that's a wonderful way to put it. Now, Daniel, appreciate your work and appreciate you taking time away from the work to talk about it with us. And we will put the Mothering Justice Action Fund information and contact portals on our information for the show notes for the this particular show. In the meantime, thank you for your work. Thank you to everybody who's listening. And as you heard today from Daniel Atkinson, we can do better.