Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Apostasy or Falling Away? | Lee Brainard

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Apostasy or Falling Away? | Lee Brainard · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers Podcast.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast everyone, monegal Zealez here with Lee Brainard.
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Speaker 2: Welcome Lee Mando.
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Speaker 1: It's good to be with you and the Prophecy Watchers team.
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Speaker 1: Once again.
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Speaker 2: We're gonna have a good time today. We're gonna be
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Speaker 2: talking about, I think one of one of the most
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Speaker 2: important topics, especially as we see looking around where people
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Speaker 2: think that some people that we are in the tribulation
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Speaker 2: period right now as we speak, and we're going to
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Speaker 2: address some of that. We're going to get into really
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Speaker 2: the meat of second this Salon, chapter two and what
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Speaker 2: apostasy means, and what rebellion means and falling away and
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Speaker 2: all this, and we're going to do that. But I
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Speaker 2: do want to remind everybody of a couple things that
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Speaker 2: are upcoming in the fall to put on your brain
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Speaker 2: and that as we have our Oklahoma conference, which is
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Speaker 2: going to be October ninth through twelfth, Lee, you're going
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Speaker 2: to be there and so get that on your calendar.
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Speaker 2: Also in Octo, over Lord Willing, I'll be traveling with
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Speaker 2: Billy Cron and Ken Michael to we will be doing
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Speaker 2: a tour of Athens of Mars Hill, we'll be going
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Speaker 2: to the Parthenon, and then we'll be taking a ship
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Speaker 2: down towards Turkey, Ephesus, down to Egypt to see the Pyramids,
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Speaker 2: and back up through Cyprus a couple other places that
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Speaker 2: Paul went in his missionary journeys, as well as doing
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Speaker 2: a Seven Churches tour, and then we're we're going to
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Speaker 2: head to eastern Turkey to see what could be one
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Speaker 2: of the big candidates for Noah's Ark. And so if
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Speaker 2: that has ever interested you, go to prophetcywochers dot com
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Speaker 2: and click on the events tab, scroll down to October
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Speaker 2: in the month and you'll see the link there to
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Speaker 2: get all the information about our upcoming trip. So it
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Speaker 2: should be a very very good time. I did the
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Speaker 2: Seven Churches tour last year and it was pretty phenomenal
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Speaker 2: to go and see all the places that Jesus wrote about.
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Speaker 2: And one of the great things was to stand right
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Speaker 2: the place where Paul in my leadst was meeting with
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Speaker 2: the Ephesian elders in Act chapter twenty, and right there
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Speaker 2: on the ocean, we were at the dock, at the
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Speaker 2: boat dock where all the ships had to come in.
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Speaker 2: So it's pretty amazing to see the Bible come alive
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Speaker 2: in those ways.
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Speaker 1: For sure, I would love to be on that trip
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Speaker 1: if I could fit it into my schedule. The concept
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Speaker 1: of actually seeing the potential arc site is extremely fascinating
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Speaker 1: to me, as well as the option of the Egypt
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Speaker 1: extension to see the pyramid.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, to see the pyramids. And with all the things
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Speaker 2: that are happening now with this latest discovery or claim,
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Speaker 2: we'll say it that way, of these buildings and towers
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Speaker 2: being underneath the pyramid going down eighteen hundred feet, it'll
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Speaker 2: be interesting to see if there's any even more excavation
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Speaker 2: or any activation by then that will help provide some
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Speaker 2: corroboration of those initial scans. So anyways, check it out.
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Speaker 2: But today, if you're with us and you can, if
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Speaker 2: you're driving, we'll don't do this, but if you can
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Speaker 2: open up your Bibles to second the Sloan chapter two.
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Speaker 2: This this is a really important topic, Lee, because there's
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Speaker 2: so much discussion about this, and there's so much there's
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Speaker 2: so much riches here. You have many people saying not
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Speaker 2: many like keep saying that, there's some that are saying that,
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Speaker 2: you know, we're in the tribulation period. Maybe it started
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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty. Any initial thoughts on those claims. Have
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Speaker 2: you heard you've heard something so, oh.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you hear it from There's people that profess to
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Speaker 1: be you know, they reject a pre trip rapture and
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Speaker 1: they say we're going into the seals. There's a number
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Speaker 1: of people on YouTube in the YouTube world that are
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Speaker 1: teaching that we're in the seals. There are different locations
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Speaker 1: in there. And my first thought comes to my mind
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Speaker 1: is where's the Antichrist? Are we just talking to some
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Speaker 1: esoteric antichrist? Antichrist? Where is peace taken from the earth?
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Speaker 1: I mean two three dozen hot spots localized, that's not
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Speaker 1: peace taken from.
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Speaker 2: The earth, from the whole earth? Yeah, yeah, and as
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Speaker 2: well as I mean we saw during the COVID years
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Speaker 2: twenty one two, even in A twenty three we saw
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Speaker 2: some inflation, certainly during BIDENEP, but I don't think we
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Speaker 2: saw you know, is it the third seal four seal inflation,
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Speaker 2: which is you know, your entire day's wage for a
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Speaker 2: loaf of bread, you know, I mean a few weeks
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Speaker 2: ago somebody else was buying, but I had a steak.
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Speaker 2: I'm sitting there with a steak and it was really
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Speaker 2: good steak. And I'm like, man, if this is tribulation living,
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Speaker 2: this this is this is not too bad. I mean here,
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Speaker 2: I've got steak, I got desserted, a nice salad. I'm
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Speaker 2: sitting there. The ambiance was nice. Yeah. And so but
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Speaker 2: what you just said is where's the nick rice? And
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Speaker 2: that's going to come up today in the second Thestilion's
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Speaker 2: two passage, So why don't want I just read it here?
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Speaker 2: Because and the version I have on my phone is
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Speaker 2: just a ESV. So it says, now, concerning the coming
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Speaker 2: of our Lord Jesus Christ, and are being gathered together
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Speaker 2: to him. We ask you, brothers not to be quickly
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Speaker 2: shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or
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Speaker 2: a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us,
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Speaker 2: to the effect that the day of the Lord has
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Speaker 2: come or has arrived as present. Let no one deceive
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Speaker 2: you in any way Verse three, For that day will
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Speaker 2: not be present unless the rebellion. Some versions will say apostasy,
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Speaker 2: some versions will say falling away, unless the rebellion comes first,
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Speaker 2: and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
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Speaker 2: who opposes and exalts himself against every So called God
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Speaker 2: or object of worship, so that he takes his seat
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Speaker 2: in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
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Speaker 2: Do you not remember that when I was still with you,
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Speaker 2: I told you all these things? And you know that
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Speaker 2: what is restraining him now so that he may be
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Speaker 2: revealed in his time? For the mystery of lawlessness is
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Speaker 2: already working. Only he who now restrains it will do
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Speaker 2: so until it is taken out of the way. And
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Speaker 2: he goes on, and the Lord will come and to
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Speaker 2: kill him with the breath of his mouth, and he
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Speaker 2: goes on and on. Okay, So for the sake of
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Speaker 2: simplicity here we want to get into a few things.
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Speaker 2: But and I might interrupt you, okay, if that's all right,
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Speaker 2: But lead us through what's happening in verse one and
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Speaker 2: why the transition into verse two is very very important.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, Well, basically verse one presents the rapture, the gathering, yep,
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Speaker 1: the gathering of the church. He says, we beseech you
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Speaker 1: Brethre in the court of the King James, we beseech
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Speaker 1: you by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and
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Speaker 1: are gathering together unto him. So it's talking about the
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Speaker 1: rapture of the Church. But then he goes on and
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Speaker 1: he moves in verse two into talking about the day
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Speaker 1: of the Lord, and he says, I don't want you
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Speaker 1: to worry about the day of the world. And then
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Speaker 1: he moves into verse three and he tells gives us
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Speaker 1: a reason why we don't have to worry about the
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Speaker 1: day of the Lord. And there he says that that
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Speaker 1: day is going to be characterized, not preceded like some
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Speaker 1: people say, but the postasy or the rebellion and the
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Speaker 1: Antichrist or the man of sin that characterizes the day
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Speaker 1: of the Lord. And so we have this blessed promise.
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Speaker 1: And I'll just paraphrase the passage, Brethren, I don't want
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Speaker 1: you to worry about the day of the Lord, because
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Speaker 1: we are going up in the rapture. We are not
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Speaker 1: going through the day of the Lord.
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Speaker 2: So let's talk about that for a minute, because I
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Speaker 2: think this is important. Obviously, you and I are pre trip.
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Speaker 2: We believe that the rapture is going to occur prior
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Speaker 2: to the day of the Lord, which in this case,
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Speaker 2: again the first event of the Day of the Lord
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Speaker 2: is this rebellion and the man of sin tied together,
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Speaker 2: you know, being Those things too are connected in verse three.
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Speaker 2: But if you have others mid trib position or a
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Speaker 2: pre wrath, they believe that we're gonna see the man
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Speaker 2: of sin, and we're gonna be experiencing the at least
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Speaker 2: the first half what he's on the scene, and then
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Speaker 2: we're gonna be experiencing his his persecution amongst the first half, uh,
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Speaker 2: and then the mid trippers. Then we're out here at
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Speaker 2: the mid and if you're a pre wrath, maybe three
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Speaker 2: quarters we're gonna be out, but we're gonna be interacting.
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Speaker 2: The Church will be interacting with the administration of the
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Speaker 2: man of lawlessness for many, many years according to pre
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Speaker 2: rath position. Of course, if your post trib you're we're
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Speaker 2: gonna be doing all of it and we'll probably all
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Speaker 2: be dead. Okay, but let's let's not go too fast
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Speaker 2: here because it's hard for me. I want to understand
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Speaker 2: the logic. Paul is saying, Hey, Church, verse five, are
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Speaker 2: we already talked about this? Yeah, okay, don't be scared
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Speaker 2: out of your wits. It's actually what it says, don't
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Speaker 2: be scared out of your mind. As if the day
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Speaker 2: of the Lord has been already here. Look around. Do
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Speaker 2: you see the Antichrist? Right? You cannot. The day of
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Speaker 2: Lord cannot be present because you don't see the Antichrist,
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Speaker 2: and the rebellion hasn't happened. Now what I find that
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Speaker 2: that that is comforting, right, But let's say that it
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Speaker 2: he's saying this, don't be scared out of your mind, don't. Now,
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Speaker 2: if he had believed and taught that we were going
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Speaker 2: to see the Antichrist and be under his persecution for
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Speaker 2: the first three and a half years or three quarters,
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Speaker 2: he would have said to them, hey, look, don't be
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Speaker 2: scared out of your mind yet. That's right, because do
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Speaker 2: you see the Antichrist? So clearly the day of the
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Speaker 2: Lord hasn't happened. But when it comes, then get freaked
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Speaker 2: out because you're gonna Let's be honest, most believers we believe,
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Speaker 2: we call them tribulation saints. We know that's a fabricated word.
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Speaker 2: We know that that's just what we call them. That
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Speaker 2: the church, we believe the church is removed, but those
10:07
Speaker 2: believers that we there are believers in the middle of
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Speaker 2: or in the Tribulation Revelation thirteen seven Daniel seven, we
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Speaker 2: most of them die or Versan six'. Nine so there
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Speaker 2: is there is, uh there is evidence if you were
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Speaker 2: a believer in the tribulation period to BE i don't
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Speaker 2: want to say, fear, okay but to be concerned that
10:29
Speaker 2: most likely, you your, family everybody's gonna. Die, okay it is, flee,
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Speaker 2: Right isn't nobody said to The, jews, right. Flee don't
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Speaker 2: even go back and get your. Coat that's, Right, Okay
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Speaker 2: so let's let's let's just get the tone here. AGAIN
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Speaker 2: i imagine you know, again one of our brothers and
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Speaker 2: sisters In christ who we, love their pre rathers. Whatever
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Speaker 2: they're sitting right, here AND i want to, say, Look
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Speaker 2: paul is, saying, hey knock it, off don't, don't don't
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Speaker 2: get worked. Up they were worked up as if some
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Speaker 2: letter came that they were in. It look, around there's
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Speaker 2: nothing here because just what you, Said, lee the idea
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Speaker 2: that just the very tenor of What paul is saying
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Speaker 2: is there's nothing to worry.
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Speaker 1: About and what the point you made is really critical
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Speaker 1: because the question wasn't, Hey, paul can you tell us
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Speaker 1: what's going to happen in the distant? Future they thought
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Speaker 1: they were in the day of The. Lord now think
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Speaker 1: about the context they were. In they'd been taught By.
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Speaker 1: Paul they knew The antichrist was going to be the
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Speaker 1: head of The Roman. Empire and so here they are
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Speaker 1: under The Roman empire with a persecuting, emperor.
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Speaker 2: And they're being. Persecuted right. Now we know that from
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Speaker 2: chapter three and. Others, yes and so in church.
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Speaker 1: History we see that The Thessalonian church was the first
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Speaker 1: church to come under severe. Persecution and so they were
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Speaker 1: afraid that they might have misunderstood, something and they were,
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Speaker 1: thinking did we miss? Something? Here are we in the
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Speaker 1: day of The? Lord are we in the? Tribulation because
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Speaker 1: we are seeing some severe persecution under an Ungodly roman.
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Speaker 2: Emperor and then somebody was spending a, rumor, yes that
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Speaker 2: they were in The day of The, lord that's, right
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Speaker 2: and so they're freaking. Out. Now WHAT i find fascinating
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Speaker 2: here Is paul clearly is correcting. Them he, says, hey
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Speaker 2: DIDN'T i discuss this WHILE i was still with? You
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Speaker 2: in verse? Five what's? Missing IF i was If i'm
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Speaker 2: If i'm going to hold on to a Pre wrath
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Speaker 2: position as an, example or even a mid trip, position
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Speaker 2: any other, Position, okay besides the pre. Trip WHAT i
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Speaker 2: find missing here Is, hey, Church i've already told you these. Things,
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Speaker 2: Okay you're going in, okay and you need to. Endure
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Speaker 2: you need to hang. On you, Know i'm not telling
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Speaker 2: you not to. FEAR i would that would be a
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Speaker 2: good thing to, say is don't fear in the midst
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Speaker 2: of all. This The lord has, You The lord's in.
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Speaker 2: Control The lord's going to hold you for how, long don't,
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Speaker 2: know because most of you are still going to, die,
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Speaker 2: okay because we know that most people are going to.
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Speaker 2: Die but what he doesn't say is he doesn't give
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Speaker 2: any counsel about enduring the arrival of the, apostacy the
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Speaker 2: rebellion and the day and the man of sin that
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Speaker 2: when he. Comes, hey, Guys i've already told. This you
13:24
Speaker 2: need to buckle. Up you need to hold. On if
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Speaker 2: you were in, it, okay you're going to be in.
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Speaker 2: It remember you're going to be in. It so but
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Speaker 2: you're not in it, now but it's, coming and when
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Speaker 2: you are in, it hold on, tight just hold. On
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Speaker 2: when do we have that in this passage at?
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Speaker 1: All it's not, here and it's not in any passage
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Speaker 1: that addresses the. Church you'll have to go to passages
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Speaker 1: that clearly Address israel in the tribulation to find anything
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Speaker 1: that resembles.
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Speaker 2: That because and just before we move, on you'll, HEAR i,
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Speaker 2: know the. Arguments you'll hear people that are in those.
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Speaker 2: Positions they'll, say, yeah but The bible says to. Endure
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Speaker 2: those who endure the end will be. Saved that's. Right,
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Speaker 2: Okay so isn't that reference to The.
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Speaker 1: Church, no this is a reference To israel and The.
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Speaker 1: Tribulation and if we don't understand, THAT i, like if
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Speaker 1: you look at the, context what do we. See we
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Speaker 1: see a command to flee From jerusalem to the hills Of.
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Speaker 1: Judea we see an exhortation about observing The. Sabbath we
14:26
Speaker 1: see an exhortation about the. Temple, well this doesn't pertain
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Speaker 1: to the. Church are we going to have spiritualize all
14:34
Speaker 1: of this? Stuff, well if we spiritualize, that why don't
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Speaker 1: we spiritualize the tribulation of The? Antichrist?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Exactly so again that the whole what the? Whole,
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Speaker 2: again the, whole the WHOLE i use the word tenor
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Speaker 2: is it's just the. Whole the. Whole flavor of this
14:49
Speaker 2: entire thing is one of correcting and trying to to
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Speaker 2: calm their. Fears, yeah don't be scared out of your.
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Speaker 2: Wits you clearly. Not so, they like you, said they're
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Speaker 2: starting to get. Persecution there's this false letter that's, coming
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Speaker 2: and they're, going is this it is? This? It did we?
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Speaker 2: Misunderstand And paul's, like, no, no, no calm, down BECAUSE i, mean,
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Speaker 2: LOGICALLY i told you the first event is going to
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Speaker 2: be the man of sinning the. Rebellion do you see? Him,
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Speaker 2: okay so, stop you're not in, it and he's gonna
15:19
Speaker 2: come and he's gonna do all these other. Things but,
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Speaker 2: again the whole thing is not but that could happen
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Speaker 2: next week, potentially or when it does, HAPPEN i want
15:27
Speaker 2: you to stay strong and endure until the. End that's
15:30
Speaker 2: not found, here that's any anything. Close, Okay so let's
15:34
Speaker 2: jump in just to set the. Tone there's a lot
15:38
Speaker 2: of confusion here Because paul says again The day of
15:44
Speaker 2: The lord is not present because the first. Event what
15:48
Speaker 2: he doesn't say is before The day of The lord,
15:51
Speaker 2: starts you're going to have an apostesy or the man
15:54
Speaker 2: of sin be. Revealed this is there's two events that
15:57
Speaker 2: precede the start of the, day the word four and
16:00
Speaker 2: the word precede does not appear in the. Passage, now
16:05
Speaker 2: this is WHY i get a Good one of our
16:07
Speaker 2: brothers WHO i love Is Donald Arnold, fruchtamo and he
16:13
Speaker 2: has allowed that that flavor of of precede that they're.
16:20
Speaker 2: There In, english there there's a couple of ways to.
16:21
Speaker 2: Say we could, say, look you're not Going we're not
16:27
Speaker 2: going to go get ice cream until you clean your
16:30
Speaker 2: room and mow the lawn. First, Okay so you could say,
16:34
Speaker 2: that and so what that what he what that really means, is,
16:37
Speaker 2: look when the the the moment we leave to go
16:42
Speaker 2: get ice, cream the the cleaning of the room and
16:46
Speaker 2: the moy lawn has to precede that, moment or it
16:49
Speaker 2: has to happen. Before so you could see that In
16:51
Speaker 2: english where you could, say, again we're not gonna go
16:56
Speaker 2: GET I we're not gonna leave to go get ice
16:58
Speaker 2: cream until these things happen, first which means in the
17:02
Speaker 2: sense and plus those happens. Before. Okay now that's one
17:06
Speaker 2: way to say. It and so something most people have
17:09
Speaker 2: read this passage to say that that now you have
17:12
Speaker 2: The antichrist and the apostacy happening before the start of
17:15
Speaker 2: the Day, lord which has Led Arnold frucktebaum to the
17:18
Speaker 2: conclusion that there's going to be two revealings of The.
17:20
Speaker 2: Antichrist one will be one revealing to the church while
17:23
Speaker 2: the church is still, here and then the second revealing
17:26
Speaker 2: is he will, say the revealing is going to be
17:28
Speaker 2: when he's revealed at the midpoint of the. Tribulation AND
17:30
Speaker 2: i totally disagree with. That What paul is not. Saying
17:33
Speaker 2: paul is not saying The day of The lord is
17:35
Speaker 2: not going to begin unless those things happen. Before. First he's,
17:39
Speaker 2: saying the first events that start the day of The
17:43
Speaker 2: lord because The word again procede and before or not,
17:46
Speaker 2: here he, Said i'll just read it again and Then
17:48
Speaker 2: i'll get your, comments and THEN i want some. Definitions
17:50
Speaker 2: here he, says, again let no one deceive, you for
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Speaker 2: that day will not be present unless the rebellion comes
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Speaker 2: first and the man of lawlessness is. Revealed so when
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Speaker 2: he's talking to The, thessalonians he's, saying look, around the first
18:07
Speaker 2: events of this day of The lord is the rebellion
18:11
Speaker 2: and the man of sin being. Around that's, very very,
18:15
Speaker 2: important and we have some other ways to coincide. That
18:18
Speaker 2: but your thoughts on all the things that we do.
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Speaker 1: WELL i love this illustration because if you once understand
18:24
Speaker 1: The greek grammar, here the passage becomes crystal. Clear let
18:29
Speaker 1: me just put the format of The greek grammar Into
18:33
Speaker 1: english like you. Did, boys we are not going camping
18:37
Speaker 1: unless you cut the grass first and clean the. Garage,
18:41
Speaker 1: now that does not require them to cut the grass
18:46
Speaker 1: first and then clean the. Garage this isn't an order
18:50
Speaker 1: between those two. Events all he's saying is if those
18:54
Speaker 1: two things don't get done, first we're not going. Camping
18:58
Speaker 1: that's first in order. There but there's another, aspect another
19:02
Speaker 1: layer that comes into this passage because this is not
19:06
Speaker 1: a condition for the arrival of the day of The.
19:08
Speaker 1: Lord this is giving us characteristics of the day of The.
19:12
Speaker 1: Lord and if you once enter into, this he's not
19:15
Speaker 1: saying we're going to see the apostasy and the man
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Speaker 1: is sin and then the day of The lord.
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Speaker 2: Will come like a few weeks, later maybe months later or.
19:24
Speaker 1: Years, Yeah exactly what he's saying is do you see
19:28
Speaker 1: the apostasy and do you see The. Antichrist if you
19:33
Speaker 1: don't see, them you're not in. It and this really
19:35
Speaker 1: comes down to the verbon estec in which is the
19:38
Speaker 1: perfect of anistymy that the perfect form an, estecon and
19:43
Speaker 1: the participial forms of this are used with the sense
19:48
Speaker 1: of present has.
19:49
Speaker 2: Come. Yea so we're talking about when some versions will
19:51
Speaker 2: say has. Come and that's why you hear me saying is, present,
19:54
Speaker 2: yes because an eskin is very. Clearly people can study,
19:58
Speaker 2: This oh, absolutely if you look at the other versions
20:00
Speaker 2: in The book Of, romans it's those things passed and those.
20:03
Speaker 1: Things present present and the present evil.
20:07
Speaker 2: Age, yes it is crystal. Clear so it's.
20:09
Speaker 1: Present and so he's saying this, day don't be. Deceived
20:13
Speaker 1: let nobody deceive. You let no high speed theological solution deceive.
20:18
Speaker 1: You that day is not. Present it is not here
20:23
Speaker 1: unless you see the, apostasy the, rebellion the first event,
20:28
Speaker 1: yep and the man of sin is, revealed and these
20:32
Speaker 1: two things are gonna be. Together you can distinguish, them
20:36
Speaker 1: but you cannot divide.
20:37
Speaker 2: Them, yeah that's. Important and so that this helps us
20:40
Speaker 2: in understanding is again for you AND i have talked
20:43
Speaker 2: about this a, lot and some of the Things i've
20:45
Speaker 2: been teaching is that the rebellion and the man of
20:50
Speaker 2: sin again being a single event or being tied together
20:57
Speaker 2: really really. Nice, now before we go into all that
21:01
Speaker 2: and get let's talk about the word apostasy for a,
21:04
Speaker 2: minute because let's provide a. Definition most, again most, versions
21:11
Speaker 2: Like i'm bringing, here this is THE. Esv it says,
21:15
Speaker 2: rebellion and that's the rebellion, First so the rebellion and
21:19
Speaker 2: the man of, sin that is the first event of
21:22
Speaker 2: the day of The lord's present. Presentness but The greek
21:26
Speaker 2: word here is apost to see. It So King james
21:29
Speaker 2: The Bishop's, bible The Bishop's bible fifteen sixty. Eight we
21:32
Speaker 2: were talking about this first. Place it appears as falling.
21:36
Speaker 2: Away all the Other english versions use the word depart
21:40
Speaker 2: departure whatever something like. That so and we get The
21:45
Speaker 2: english word apostasy from This greek word apost to see.
21:50
Speaker 2: It that doesn't, mean, though that The english definition is
21:54
Speaker 2: what The greek definition means. Exactly so let's talk it
21:57
Speaker 2: and first bringing here, obviously you wrote a whole book on,
22:01
Speaker 2: this which is and you provided all the data talk
22:05
Speaker 2: about your process of looking at the Word. Apostaseea you
22:10
Speaker 2: don't have to go into all the details for, sure
22:12
Speaker 2: because we ro and recommend people getting your book on,
22:15
Speaker 2: this but recommend how you looked at just that. Word
22:21
Speaker 2: you looked at a whole bunch of. Things but you're,
22:22
Speaker 2: LIKE i want to focus on the word rather than
22:24
Speaker 2: the root or some of the other. Forms here we
22:27
Speaker 2: have In cyclistones two three apasta see? It what does it? Mean?
22:30
Speaker 1: WELL i looked at all two hundred and eighty three
22:34
Speaker 1: extant instances of The greek word apostaca from its first
22:39
Speaker 1: appearance around two hundred and FIFTY, bc And archimedes worked
22:42
Speaker 1: the sand reckoner all the way up to A d
22:45
Speaker 1: five hundred in the writings of The Early, Fathers so
22:49
Speaker 1: we got seven hundred and fifty years of coin a history,
22:52
Speaker 1: here and the word did not appear prior to two
22:55
Speaker 1: hundred and FIFTY. Bc so there's no classical references to this.
22:59
Speaker 1: Word if anyone says that there was used in Classical,
23:03
Speaker 1: greek they really are making a research mistake. Here they're
23:08
Speaker 1: making an. Assumption it's not a.
23:09
Speaker 2: Fact and where did you get your? Information so someone might, say,
23:13
Speaker 2: well how thorough were? You and you, know maybe you
23:16
Speaker 2: didn't have access to all of The greek manuscripts of
23:18
Speaker 2: Us so what did you?
23:19
Speaker 1: USE i used THE, Tlg Thesaurus Linguy, grecuy, website which
23:23
Speaker 1: costs me about one hundred and eighty dollars a year
23:25
Speaker 1: to access a Massive greek, database which basically has almost
23:29
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the Extant greek, literature.
23:33
Speaker 2: Not just, religious it's everything secular and. Sacred From, homer
23:38
Speaker 2: which is what time for.
23:39
Speaker 1: People, well classic dating would say about eight HUNDRED. BC
23:44
Speaker 1: i don't follow classic. DATING i think was actually The Bronze.
23:50
Speaker 1: AGE i think it was fifteen HUNDRED bc. Earlier, okay
23:54
Speaker 1: so that's the era that it, was and from there
23:58
Speaker 1: it goes forwards all the way up To Byzantine greek
24:02
Speaker 1: around one thousand or a d one. Thousands so we've
24:06
Speaker 1: got twenty five hundred years Of greek in documents.
24:09
Speaker 2: Here in that. Database, okay so that's what you're looking,
24:12
Speaker 2: at and you're seeing this. Word you don't see it
24:14
Speaker 2: appear anywhere before two hundred and FIFTY.
24:17
Speaker 1: Bcs that's that's, right it's well into the coin. Era
24:21
Speaker 1: and so THEN i looked at all these references AND
24:25
Speaker 1: i discovered that there's a small handful of uses for
24:30
Speaker 1: medical terminology like an. Absess there's some legal terminology like
24:35
Speaker 1: it's used for. Divorce, now these.
24:39
Speaker 2: Terms like departing like a woman departs yep or something like.
24:42
Speaker 1: That it, so and normally these uses were covered by a,
24:46
Speaker 1: pastasists which is a different, word but occasionally people use the.
24:51
Speaker 1: Pastasea but this was just a tiny handful of. Instances the,
24:56
Speaker 1: vast vast majority of the instances were. Rebellion there was
25:01
Speaker 1: political rebellion ten percent of the time and religious rebellion
25:05
Speaker 1: ninety percent of the.
25:06
Speaker 2: Time, okay so let's talk about rebellion. Then so what
25:11
Speaker 2: in our Modern english we often think about IF i
25:15
Speaker 2: If i'm an, apostate OR i commit, apostasy OR i
25:19
Speaker 2: apostasize using a. Verb. No, generally what Our english modern
25:24
Speaker 2: idea is THAT i used to be a follower Of,
25:29
Speaker 2: hinduism BUT i apostasized from. IT i used to be A,
25:34
Speaker 2: CHRISTIAN i embraced it at one, time and Now i've
25:36
Speaker 2: apostasized from. It that's the Modern english. Idea is that
25:42
Speaker 2: identical to The.
25:44
Speaker 1: Greek it's not the Way greek used apostaca is. Not
25:52
Speaker 1: there's only small overlap with The english word apostasy because
25:56
Speaker 1: In english we use apostasy for like you, said you
25:59
Speaker 1: form the embrace the. Religion now you not only do
26:02
Speaker 1: you walk away from, it you reject, it you repudiate.
26:05
Speaker 1: It and that's how we use apostacy and apostate In.
26:08
Speaker 1: English But, islam for, instance using The english, language they
26:14
Speaker 1: call All christians apostates and All hindus, apostates even though
26:20
Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine percent of those people were Never
26:23
Speaker 1: muslims in the first.
26:24
Speaker 2: Place so they're using it more in that in the
26:28
Speaker 2: Original greek sense that you have found in that we
26:32
Speaker 2: as A, christian even though never Embraced, islam THAT i rebel.
26:35
Speaker 2: Against it's when they're when they're coming and saying you
26:39
Speaker 2: need to submit To, islam which is what the word,
26:42
Speaker 2: means AND i rebel against and say, No i'm. Not,
26:45
Speaker 2: okay they're calling me an. Apostate that's, right, Okay but
26:48
Speaker 2: that that would be more in line of the original
26:51
Speaker 2: coin a use is simply rebelling against an established doctrine or,
26:57
Speaker 2: thought or political position or or or something. Right.
27:01
Speaker 1: Yeah and another way that we use it In english
27:03
Speaker 1: is we use it like in a lesser sense of
27:07
Speaker 1: just a declension or growing, lukewarm, backsliding, Okay and apostasia
27:14
Speaker 1: is not used for those kind of. Situations it's not
27:17
Speaker 1: used just for generic moral, declension it's not just.
27:20
Speaker 2: Used, okay that's important because so then so then the
27:23
Speaker 2: big trouble comes. In okay when, primarily as we, said
27:30
Speaker 2: The Bishop's bible fifteen sixty eight takes This greek word
27:34
Speaker 2: and it it you translates it falling. Away. Yep, Okay
27:38
Speaker 2: now that's that's that's that introduces a. Thought and then
27:42
Speaker 2: we know that The Bishop's bible was redone in sixteen oh,
27:46
Speaker 2: two kind of revised a little, bit but it was
27:49
Speaker 2: the foundation for The King James, bible which began in
27:52
Speaker 2: sixteen oh four to sixteen eleven being. Translated so the
27:56
Speaker 2: translators of The King james were, like again they use
27:59
Speaker 2: The Bish Bible english as a kind of a, foundation
28:03
Speaker 2: and then of course they did their own, translations but
28:04
Speaker 2: they put in falling. Away now once they introduced, that,
28:10
Speaker 2: Again King james is very influential The bible in the
28:13
Speaker 2: last four hundred. Years that has kind of now perpetuated
28:20
Speaker 2: and associated itself with our modern word of, apostcy THAT
28:26
Speaker 2: i have fallen away to something THAT i originally originally.
28:29
Speaker 2: Held so in that, regard do you think that is
28:34
Speaker 2: kind of where the confusion?
28:35
Speaker 1: Began, well it's it's a very large source definitely of the,
28:40
Speaker 1: confusion because if we're going to go with a term
28:43
Speaker 1: like falling, away we often use that for backsliding or
28:46
Speaker 1: for an individual that walks away from the. Faith there's
28:51
Speaker 1: only partial overlap with The greek concept of. Apostacia WHAT
28:55
Speaker 1: i like to point out to people is when you
28:57
Speaker 1: look at the instances of The greek word apostle to
29:00
Speaker 1: see it prior to the time That paul wrote The
29:02
Speaker 1: book Of Second, thessalonians we see a couple instances where
29:08
Speaker 1: it's used of secular political, rebellion and we see a
29:11
Speaker 1: number of uses in the septuagen in Other jewish writings
29:16
Speaker 1: where it's used for a definite act of defiance or
29:20
Speaker 1: rebellion at a definite, time under definite instigator or a definite.
29:26
Speaker 1: Instigators so it's very very. Definite this is it's a
29:30
Speaker 1: definite act of defiance or a definite act of.
29:34
Speaker 2: Rebellion that's the primary overwhelming would you, say use is
29:40
Speaker 2: this rebellion at a specific moment rather than a slow falling?
29:45
Speaker 1: Away, Absolutely and this sense was such a concrete common
29:51
Speaker 1: sense that it carried over for centuries into the use
29:54
Speaker 1: of The.
29:55
Speaker 2: Fathers, Okay so let me bring up another point you can.
30:00
Speaker 2: Address so we know that this word aposse sea appears
30:05
Speaker 2: also in The New, Testament, yes, right In act twenty,
30:07
Speaker 2: one talking about the forsaking Of. Moses, yes, Right so
30:12
Speaker 2: that that use, there which is that the only other
30:16
Speaker 2: USE i think is that that one of the only
30:17
Speaker 2: other uses in The New testament is actually one in that.
30:21
Speaker 2: Use that is the translation will say for. Saking, hey
30:26
Speaker 2: they've accused you of Forsaking. Moses, well that one clearly
30:30
Speaker 2: would be that could maybe maybe that's why the translators said.
30:34
Speaker 2: THIS i could see where they would, say, Hey, paul
30:38
Speaker 2: people are accusing you of falling away From, moses or
30:41
Speaker 2: for Saking, moses or you could say a rebelling Against.
30:43
Speaker 2: Moses you could use any of those. Things but there's
30:46
Speaker 2: no doubt That paul had Embraced moses at one. Time.
30:50
Speaker 1: True, Yeah and, SEE i think what's going on here
30:53
Speaker 1: is they were accusing him of walking away and Repudiating
30:57
Speaker 1: moses and embracing This jesus Of. Nazareth so they were
31:03
Speaker 1: looking at it like this is, Catastrophic this is a serious,
31:08
Speaker 1: departure this is rejecting the. Truth so you've got a
31:12
Speaker 1: definite instance of, rebellion our insurrection at a definite point in,
31:19
Speaker 1: time with a definite, instigator which Was jesus Of.
31:22
Speaker 2: Nazareth, okay so that's, so that's. Good so what we
31:26
Speaker 2: do have then, is again to be, fair we have
31:30
Speaker 2: one instance in The New, testament AND i Don't paul
31:34
Speaker 2: wasn't the one saying. IT i think it might have Been,
31:35
Speaker 2: james or at least, Well luke's writing. It luke's writing.
31:38
Speaker 2: It where you do have you have? THERE i guess
31:43
Speaker 2: would you say if we were to look at That
31:47
Speaker 2: act twenty one instance that in that, context even though
31:52
Speaker 2: it was it was a moment in time that he
31:55
Speaker 2: had fallen away or repubiated something that he held, previously.
31:59
Speaker 1: That's what they were accusing him. Of, yes and that's
32:02
Speaker 1: definitely what they're accusing, of because he was publicly testifying
32:05
Speaker 1: that he held this on the road To. Damascus he
32:08
Speaker 1: had this amazing instantaneous experience and in one day he
32:13
Speaker 1: completely forsook what he used to. Teach, well we know
32:17
Speaker 1: that's not, true but that's what the.
32:18
Speaker 2: Accusation, Okay so we want to be, Fair we want
32:22
Speaker 2: to be fair to all of the. Nuances but what
32:26
Speaker 2: we do also. Know and, again when you're looking at two,
32:30
Speaker 2: instances pretty much in The New, testament you can't build
32:34
Speaker 2: doctrine on whether you have you, know one other. Instance
32:42
Speaker 2: you know in language they'll call a single one of
32:45
Speaker 2: hay pax. Lakomena, right it appears one, time and so
32:48
Speaker 2: you don't build a whole doctrine on that one. Use
32:50
Speaker 2: but this is the. Value, now maybe explain to the
32:52
Speaker 2: audience why then you just, said, WELL i read it
32:56
Speaker 2: in next twenty. One that's enough there it. Is why
32:59
Speaker 2: go look at two hundred and eighty three instances that
33:03
Speaker 2: and the ones that are After, paul those have some
33:08
Speaker 2: part to. Play but the ones Before, paul why is
33:10
Speaker 2: that more important in the sense of, Methodology.
33:13
Speaker 1: Well for our, methodology if we're going to follow the
33:16
Speaker 1: historical grammatical, hermaeutic it is a first principle of this
33:22
Speaker 1: literal hermineutic that The greek vocabulary of The Greek New
33:27
Speaker 1: testament is using words in common.
33:31
Speaker 2: Com coin, a because coin a what does coin a?
33:34
Speaker 1: Mean for those that don't, know coin a is just
33:37
Speaker 1: the amalgamation of all the Different greek dialects into a
33:40
Speaker 1: Common greek dialects.
33:42
Speaker 2: For the for the. Layperson, yeah this is why the
33:45
Speaker 2: vulgate is called the vulgate because we use the word,
33:49
Speaker 2: vulgar because vulgar has the idea of the common. Person
33:53
Speaker 2: why you speaking like of you, know vulgar because they
33:56
Speaker 2: would talk and you, KNOW i wouldn't call it, hillbilly
33:58
Speaker 2: but they would talk in a very non, classical non
34:02
Speaker 2: high register in. Linguistics this was just the common language of,
34:06
Speaker 2: everybody and The bible was written in this common.
34:09
Speaker 1: That's Right, greek and so every word in The Greek
34:11
Speaker 1: New testament is used with the common senses In. Greek in,
34:16
Speaker 1: general there's no word in The New testament that has
34:19
Speaker 1: unique sense that wasn't found in Coin. A now what
34:22
Speaker 1: we do have is words often had an elevated. Sense
34:26
Speaker 1: so for, instance the word repentance had is used the
34:30
Speaker 1: same as it was in Secular, greek but it had
34:32
Speaker 1: it Was god.
34:34
Speaker 2: Focused and gope is the same.
34:36
Speaker 1: Thing, love, grace, mercy all these words have eternal focus
34:41
Speaker 1: versus temporal, focus A god focus rather than a man.
34:44
Speaker 1: Focus so they can have elevated, senses but they can't
34:48
Speaker 1: have different unique senses.
34:50
Speaker 2: EXACTLY i, MEAN i remember studying the word of gope
34:52
Speaker 2: and not that it never appears in pres, this but The,
34:55
Speaker 2: bible The New testament basically hijacks this. Word, yeah in
35:00
Speaker 2: a good, way and it's trying to, say, look if
35:03
Speaker 2: you want to Understand god and his love for, us
35:05
Speaker 2: and this agape this this, uh this this love that
35:09
Speaker 2: is without strings in many. Ways you, know it's like
35:13
Speaker 2: unconditional if you want to say it that, way that
35:17
Speaker 2: that this is the word For. God even though we
35:18
Speaker 2: know that again that The Father phileo he Loved, jesus
35:22
Speaker 2: he he had Got. Jesus so there's there is some.
35:25
Speaker 2: Similarity but, nevertheless a gape is very in all of
35:28
Speaker 2: THE i imagine in all the things you, Saw, uh
35:31
Speaker 2: it's mostly used within The christian realm rather than the.
35:35
Speaker 2: Secular wouldn't you say if in all of the the
35:37
Speaker 2: word a goape or would would you see it?
35:39
Speaker 1: Differently, well a gopi definitely has a strong secular, usage
35:44
Speaker 1: but The New testament takes it and elevates it to
35:48
Speaker 1: a level it never had.
35:51
Speaker 2: Secular greek exactly and never attained in Secular. Yeah Never
35:53
Speaker 2: that's that's kind of WHERE i was, going is that
35:55
Speaker 2: we get this. Element they kind of hijacked it to
35:57
Speaker 2: their own.
35:58
Speaker 1: Ends, Okay, well let's come back to this how apostasia was. Used,
36:02
Speaker 1: yes so in One maccabees two fifteen we See apostasa
36:06
Speaker 1: used that this is A jewish, literature and it's used
36:11
Speaker 1: Of antiochus, epiphanies requiring The jews to sacrifice to the
36:18
Speaker 1: statue Of zeus and to participate in pagan temple. Ceremonies
36:25
Speaker 1: this is apostasy to The. Jews they were repudiating The
36:29
Speaker 1: god Of abraham and worshiping The god of The. Greeks
36:32
Speaker 1: and this was a definite act of defiance at a
36:36
Speaker 1: definite time with a definite instigator In tayka's, epiphanies And
36:40
Speaker 1: tayka's epiphanies is a type of The, antichrist and even
36:44
Speaker 1: The bible uses him in that. Way, now another interesting,
36:48
Speaker 1: one in The book Of, jubileese we See apostasa being
36:52
Speaker 1: used Of nimrod's rebellion Against god with the building of
36:56
Speaker 1: The tower Of babel and bringing everybody together in, war
37:00
Speaker 1: one grand act of defiance against the Living, god rejecting
37:05
Speaker 1: the Living, god rejecting The god of The.
37:09
Speaker 2: Bible so hold for pause for a. Moment so here
37:13
Speaker 2: you have Again nimrod was never worshiping The Living god
37:17
Speaker 2: because exactly and so it wasn't that he departed or
37:21
Speaker 2: fell away from worshiping The Living. God And taycha is
37:25
Speaker 2: the same, thing, right so that this isn't a falling.
37:27
Speaker 2: Away and that's, very very important because this question that
37:31
Speaker 2: comes up is the reason people are struggling with some
37:35
Speaker 2: of the things that we've talked. About it relates to
37:37
Speaker 2: second zones two. Three is they, say, no are You
37:41
Speaker 2: you're saying that The jews in order for them to
37:43
Speaker 2: commit an apostasy because we Again i'll speak for, MYSELF
37:47
Speaker 2: i believe the, apostacy the rebellion of second essilones two
37:50
Speaker 2: to three connected with. It The man Of sin is
37:53
Speaker 2: the is The jewish rebellion when they embrace him As.
37:57
Speaker 2: Messiah that's a rebellion in reject, yes the revealed will
38:02
Speaker 2: Of god right now that The jews knows they need
38:04
Speaker 2: to Follow jesus and they're, like, no we are, not
38:08
Speaker 2: and it's an act of rebellion when they embrace that
38:10
Speaker 2: guy is The. MESSIAH i, mean if you asked anybody
38:13
Speaker 2: in out of, context do you believe that when The
38:16
Speaker 2: jewish people embrace the anti Crisis Messiah john five point forty,
38:21
Speaker 2: three that that is an act of rebellion Against. Jesus
38:25
Speaker 2: everybody would say, Yes, yeah they would say. Yes, Okay
38:29
Speaker 2: so but the key thing here is talk about the
38:33
Speaker 2: definitiveness of this specifically time. Bound this isn't a slow
38:38
Speaker 2: falling away over, centuries specific time bound.
38:41
Speaker 1: Event, yeah, well exactly so With Antiocha's. Epiphanes this wasn't
38:45
Speaker 1: the slow declension of The jews over decades or. Centuries
38:49
Speaker 1: this was The jewish people being conquered by The, greeks
38:52
Speaker 1: and The greeks forcing them at sword, point at the
38:56
Speaker 1: threat of their heads to Worship, zeus the image Of
39:01
Speaker 1: zeus or die and there was associated with. This was
39:07
Speaker 1: was embracing The hellenistic, culture The hellenistic ways and repudiating
39:12
Speaker 1: their entire mosaic.
39:14
Speaker 2: System and And nibrod. Too again a singular. Event, Tworo,
39:19
Speaker 2: Babbel we're going to defy the Living god here and
39:24
Speaker 2: and rebel against his.
39:26
Speaker 1: Sovereignty you're either with us and rebellion against the Living,
39:29
Speaker 1: god or you're With.
39:30
Speaker 2: God.
39:32
Speaker 1: Yeah it's a definite event at a definite, time with
39:36
Speaker 1: a definite act of.
39:37
Speaker 2: Defiance, Okay so now let's bring this forward and let's
39:41
Speaker 2: talk about the how this comes into play and seconds loans.
39:44
Speaker 2: Two so you have Here paul again telling, them don't freak.
39:49
Speaker 2: Out i've told you this before The day Of lord
39:51
Speaker 2: is not, present not, here look, around because the first
39:54
Speaker 2: event is the apausta see of the rebellion and the
39:58
Speaker 2: man of sin. Being so let's talk about. That give
40:04
Speaker 2: us your view on.
40:05
Speaker 1: That, well to, me in my, mind were if a
40:10
Speaker 1: Believing jew read this, passage.
40:12
Speaker 2: Who was like A Messianic, jew like A Jewish, christian or.
40:15
Speaker 1: Any jew who MAYBE i shouldn't use the word, believe
40:18
Speaker 1: but just in they Were jewish and they're reading, this
40:22
Speaker 1: whether they had already believed in The messiah or whether they,
40:24
Speaker 1: hadn't but they would read this passage and they would
40:29
Speaker 1: recognize aspects of this passage about This. Antichrist they would
40:33
Speaker 1: recognize that from their own writings in The, tanak they
40:38
Speaker 1: would recognize it in The Old, testament and they would
40:41
Speaker 1: also catch the use of, apostacia and they would their
40:45
Speaker 1: mind would. Click they would, Say i've read this In,
40:47
Speaker 1: maccabies i have read this In, Jubileese i've read this
40:52
Speaker 1: in The. Septuagint they would know that. Apastasea here was a,
40:56
Speaker 1: definite active defiance at a definite time with the definite.
41:00
Speaker 1: Instigator The antichrist is the instigator of the definite act of.
41:05
Speaker 1: Defiance and they would put two and two. Together they
41:08
Speaker 1: could not read this passage without thinking Of macabees And.
41:12
Speaker 2: Jubileese, okay so let's that's. Good so in this sense
41:17
Speaker 2: we know we know as, well and this is where
41:21
Speaker 2: my mind has gone. On this journey is again of,
41:25
Speaker 2: discovery so to. Speak and that is. Okay you And
41:29
Speaker 2: i've talked about this, before and we've given credit to
41:32
Speaker 2: Doctor Andy woods that typically when you look at secont
41:35
Speaker 2: and so one's two, three the apostasy or the falling
41:38
Speaker 2: away using The King, james which again it's caused a
41:40
Speaker 2: lot of, issues is that the church would slowly fall
41:44
Speaker 2: away at the end of the. Age and we know
41:46
Speaker 2: For timothy four to one says, that so we believe that's, true,
41:49
Speaker 2: Right but For timothy four one doesn't say that it
41:51
Speaker 2: happens just as many will depart from the. Faith that
41:53
Speaker 2: doesn't say it's a specific time bound. Event and What
41:56
Speaker 2: Dr Andy woods believes is he questioned this second That
42:02
Speaker 2: stellians two three as a use or as proof of
42:07
Speaker 2: a church, apostacy saying this can't be the. Case, guys
42:10
Speaker 2: look and he believes that the church is going to
42:12
Speaker 2: depart from the faith for sixty four. One but he,
42:13
Speaker 2: says Second essie two does not say this because here
42:16
Speaker 2: there's a definite, article ye with, apostasea there's a definite
42:20
Speaker 2: article with the man of. Sin and so he, says
42:22
Speaker 2: if you look at, that this clearly cannot refer to
42:25
Speaker 2: a church apostasy or a falling, away because we know
42:29
Speaker 2: it's not can happen in a singular. Event and so
42:32
Speaker 2: WHEN i read, That i'm, like, OH i think he's
42:34
Speaker 2: making a great. Argument so his solution was this refers
42:38
Speaker 2: to the, rapture the, physical the departure of the. Church
42:46
Speaker 2: and SO i, thought, well, okay he's making a good argument.
42:48
Speaker 2: There and then you come along and again in your
42:50
Speaker 2: research and to say this in the two hundred and
42:52
Speaker 2: eighty three, instances maybe well you say, it it's your.
42:55
Speaker 1: Work, well two hundred and eighty three extent instances from
42:59
Speaker 1: two hundred and FIFTY bc to A d five, hundred
43:02
Speaker 1: not one time was it ever used for physical departure at.
43:07
Speaker 2: Once and WHAT i, WROTE i did a presentation this last,
43:10
Speaker 2: weekend and and SO i, calculated, okay let's take this
43:14
Speaker 2: one out of two hundred eighty, Three, yeah and one
43:18
Speaker 2: divided by two eighty, three and it was point zero
43:20
Speaker 2: zero three. Percent and so are you, saying and, Well
43:25
Speaker 2: i'll speak for you and you can. Agree are you
43:28
Speaker 2: saying that it is absolutely impossible that it can be
43:32
Speaker 2: used as physical? Departure?
43:33
Speaker 1: HERE i wouldn't say it's, impossible but it's about as
43:37
Speaker 1: close to impossible as you can get if you're gonna
43:40
Speaker 1: follow the straightforward use a, robust complete use of the
43:47
Speaker 1: historical grammatical.
43:48
Speaker 2: Governmentity so what somebody asked me is do you think it's?
43:51
Speaker 2: IMPOSSIBLE i said, no because you, know when you're dealing with,
43:54
Speaker 2: science things are don't speak about. Impossibilities but it has
43:58
Speaker 2: a point zero zero three per sent chance of being
44:01
Speaker 2: used in that one way out of two hundred and
44:03
Speaker 2: eighty three, times which would be that strains. Me that
44:08
Speaker 2: would be it's not even.
44:10
Speaker 1: Unusual and and to go in that direction and embrace
44:13
Speaker 1: something with that low odds of being the, answer you're
44:18
Speaker 1: going down a path that's Against aukham's. Razor you're going
44:21
Speaker 1: against the, past that's against the elegant. Solution we want
44:25
Speaker 1: the simplest solution that harmonizes all the.
44:28
Speaker 2: Data. Okay so like if you are, again we respect
44:31
Speaker 2: our brother And Andy, woods we love, him but he's
44:33
Speaker 2: the one that got the.
44:34
Speaker 1: Conversation oh he.
44:35
Speaker 2: Is yeah, again that's he's like what he said, there,
44:38
Speaker 2: like oh, Great and then now your research and he
44:40
Speaker 2: didn't have your research at all, time, no, Okay and
44:43
Speaker 2: but now your research is available and anybody can go document. It.
44:47
Speaker 2: Okay so now we have the idea of it being
44:49
Speaker 2: a physical departure is kind of out the. Window so
44:52
Speaker 2: then the next option, is, well then what does this
44:55
Speaker 2: refer to? You what specific time bound? Event which he,
44:59
Speaker 2: says this is a specific time bound. Event so my
45:03
Speaker 2: question to you then is what specific time bound event
45:06
Speaker 2: is this referring? To what rebellion is it referring?
45:10
Speaker 1: To, well the, context obviously is the. Tribulation so we
45:16
Speaker 1: need to be looking at something in the tribulation that
45:20
Speaker 1: involves The jewish. People and to me it's Obvious daniel
45:26
Speaker 1: nine to twenty seven when the Anti christ forces his
45:30
Speaker 1: covenant upon the many In, israel we know from The
45:35
Speaker 1: book Of isaiah IS i believe it's twenty eight, eighteen isn't?
45:38
Speaker 2: It eight twenty, eight fifteen through, Eighteen, yeah, yep.
45:40
Speaker 1: That there will be an agreement with Shi al and
45:43
Speaker 1: a covenant with. Death UNLESS i got that, flipped and
45:46
Speaker 1: a covenant with death and agreement with She, AL i can't.
45:49
Speaker 2: Clip so it's all right, there.
45:50
Speaker 1: Yep but, Anyways, israel this implies That israel is going
45:55
Speaker 1: to have in her heart of hearts sense something's, wrong
45:58
Speaker 1: and she's going to do it. Anyway this is going
46:02
Speaker 1: to be a repudiation Of jesus Of nazareth As Israel's
46:08
Speaker 1: messiah and embracing this man who comes in his own
46:12
Speaker 1: name is The.
46:13
Speaker 2: Messiah, yeah It's and to me WHAT i find fascinating
46:17
Speaker 2: is that we don't have to guess on. This in
46:20
Speaker 2: that in first on, two you, know basically fifteen through
46:25
Speaker 2: eighteen twenty, three all that whole, section it says the
46:30
Speaker 2: one who denies That jesus is The messiah is The.
46:35
Speaker 2: Antichrist that's exactly. RIGHT i, mean so if you want
46:37
Speaker 2: to know what's The, antichrist what's his? Platform, well when
46:40
Speaker 2: he shows up and he's talking to The, jews and
46:42
Speaker 2: we don't know all the details of how we don't
46:43
Speaker 2: know how it's all going to come. Together but what
46:45
Speaker 2: we do know is what The bible, says at least
46:47
Speaker 2: in one of these, flavors and that is when he
46:50
Speaker 2: shows up and they're coming to this. Agreement In daniel
46:53
Speaker 2: nine twenty seven and The hebrew there it only appears
46:55
Speaker 2: a couple. Times, again it's another one of these tough.
46:57
Speaker 2: Passages The hebrew there, appears and The, psalms and if
47:00
Speaker 2: you look at the, subduagen it has this idea of.
47:02
Speaker 2: Prevailing it's kind of so he's going to cause to
47:06
Speaker 2: prevail the, covenant WHICH i believe is The Mosaic. Covenant
47:11
Speaker 2: he's going to cause it to prevail throughout the. Land,
47:13
Speaker 2: Okay but when he does, this when he makes this
47:16
Speaker 2: covenant with The jewish people and they embrace, him one
47:21
Speaker 2: of his things, is if we do this AND i
47:24
Speaker 2: AND i AND i help, you the covenant is The
47:26
Speaker 2: MOSAIC i help you go and build your temple and
47:28
Speaker 2: all these other. Things you have to acknowledge That jesus
47:31
Speaker 2: is not The. Messiah, well how do you know? That
47:33
Speaker 2: because that's what First john two eighteen says is the
47:35
Speaker 2: message of the antichristis that's, right and they say. Done
47:40
Speaker 2: is that an act of, rebellion.
47:42
Speaker 1: That is the absolute highest act of rebellion that a
47:48
Speaker 1: human being can. DO i, mean unbelief is the.
47:51
Speaker 2: Sin of all. Sins, Yes and this is where you,
47:55
Speaker 2: wonder will it be that maybe you Have, elijah or
48:01
Speaker 2: you have one hundred and forty four thousand or whatever
48:04
Speaker 2: other people that are specifically, Preaching we don't. Know they
48:08
Speaker 2: don't even need to be either one of. Those i'm
48:09
Speaker 2: not even saying, that but somebody preaching specifically when they're
48:12
Speaker 2: coming up and they're seeing their opportunity to bring forth
48:17
Speaker 2: The Mosaic, covenant because that's what they believe that in
48:19
Speaker 2: their eschatology And Jewish rabbonic, eschatology they believe that when
48:22
Speaker 2: The messiah, arrives he will cause The mosaic law to.
48:26
Speaker 2: Prevail that's, right he. Does and, so but when they're
48:29
Speaker 2: coming up and they're getting, ready getting, excited and someone
48:32
Speaker 2: over here comes in and, says, no you don't need,
48:34
Speaker 2: this you Need. Jesus you Need jesus is The, Messiah
48:38
Speaker 2: and we know how they feel. Already but there's a
48:41
Speaker 2: fresh preaching of the proclamation of The gospel Of Jesus.
48:46
Speaker 2: Christ jesus their messiah to, them and then The antichrist
48:49
Speaker 2: comes on it, says you're gonna go with? Them are
48:51
Speaker 2: you going to go with?
48:52
Speaker 1: Me that's exactly, right.
48:55
Speaker 2: And they rebel against that. Proclamation and if we look in,
48:59
Speaker 2: hindsight Now paul would, say, okay if you're in the,
49:04
Speaker 2: tribulation if you're in the day of The, lord look
49:06
Speaker 2: around when you look. Backwards the first event was a
49:10
Speaker 2: rebellion connected with the man of? Lawlessness did that? Happen
49:14
Speaker 2: and other people would, say Did dadiel nine twenty seven?
49:17
Speaker 2: Happen Did john five point forty three? Happen that they?
49:20
Speaker 2: Received jesus came in his own name and his father's.
49:22
Speaker 2: Name they didn't receive. Him another's going to come in
49:24
Speaker 2: his own name and him they're going to. Receive was
49:26
Speaker 2: there a? Reception was there a rebellion Against? Jesus and
49:30
Speaker 2: was there a? Covenant that's all connected?
49:32
Speaker 1: Together definite defiance at a definite time with a definite.
49:36
Speaker 2: Instigator to, me it fits very very. Nice in, again
49:43
Speaker 2: we got, linguistics won don't you summarize, then what do
49:46
Speaker 2: we have in this position in the sense of what
49:49
Speaker 2: do we have in the sense of normal? Interpretation kind
49:53
Speaker 2: we can kind of wrap it up, here what do
49:54
Speaker 2: we have on our, side so to, speak or that would?
49:57
Speaker 2: Help are we just reaching here or how did we get?
50:00
Speaker 1: Here really looking at the context, context which is the
50:05
Speaker 1: Anti christ and the war that he's gonna and the
50:10
Speaker 1: havoc that he's going to, reak we see that right
50:12
Speaker 1: there in the, context this understanding of, apostasia of a
50:17
Speaker 1: definite act of defiance at a definite time with a definite,
50:21
Speaker 1: instigator that actually fits the immediate context, perfectly.
50:26
Speaker 2: BECAUSE i would, say in the next, verse what's the,
50:29
Speaker 2: Context he's standing in the temple declaring himself the? Temple what?
50:31
Speaker 2: Temple A jewish? Temple where In jerusalem declaring himself to Be?
50:36
Speaker 2: God and it goes on and. On but people can't
50:38
Speaker 2: say this is not A jewish. Context that's, right.
50:41
Speaker 1: It's Absolutely, jewish it's absolutely, tribulation and it's Absolutely. Antichrist.
50:46
Speaker 2: Yes so, again one more little thing, here WHICH i
50:49
Speaker 2: think is helpful in you AND i have discussed this
50:52
Speaker 2: in other, places but in The church, fathers when they
50:56
Speaker 2: are looking at this, passage they are so overwhelmed with
51:02
Speaker 2: the connection that's right between the rebellion and the and
51:06
Speaker 2: the and the and the man of. Sin here The
51:08
Speaker 2: antichrist are what are some things? That how do they phrase?
51:12
Speaker 2: It WHICH i think is.
51:12
Speaker 1: Fascinating, well two, observations and the one that you're speaking.
51:16
Speaker 1: To they connect the apostasy and the man of sin so,
51:23
Speaker 1: intimately so inseparably that they actually call The antichrist by
51:29
Speaker 1: the name of The. Apostasy he is these are. Personified, yeah,
51:35
Speaker 1: Yes and but another interesting. OBSERVATION i have read Every greek,
51:40
Speaker 1: church Every greek well not Every greek father that wrote In,
51:44
Speaker 1: greek but Every greek writing of THAT i could find
51:47
Speaker 1: the Early church, fathers whether that was a translation or
51:50
Speaker 1: whether they have themselves wrote In. Greek AND i read
51:53
Speaker 1: through all those and early fathers on this. Passage not
51:56
Speaker 1: one of them brought up the possibility of a physical.
52:01
Speaker 1: Departure not one of them opposed the idea of a physical.
52:06
Speaker 1: Departure not one of them taught the idea of a physical. Departure,
52:11
Speaker 1: now this is actually quite, amazing because the Early church
52:14
Speaker 1: fathers argued just about everything under the.
52:16
Speaker 2: Side they really.
52:17
Speaker 1: Did, yeah they were just like, Us they were, humans
52:21
Speaker 1: just like. Us the fact that they didn't even raise
52:25
Speaker 1: it is something to, mention something to, consider something to
52:29
Speaker 1: fight and to.
52:30
Speaker 2: Reject, yeah even to reject.
52:31
Speaker 1: It's not, there it's. Absent to, me this is a
52:36
Speaker 1: really strong argument that the sense did not.
52:39
Speaker 2: Exist, yeah and so you know what we've been doing
52:42
Speaker 2: in this podcast, here and we kind of get in
52:44
Speaker 2: some of the. Minutia BUT i hope at the end
52:47
Speaker 2: of the day that number one, AGAIN i wrote the
52:50
Speaker 2: ForWord for your book because it's just to. Me you
52:53
Speaker 2: address so many things in there about, everything but certainly
52:56
Speaker 2: the physical departure of the other. Views but you go
52:59
Speaker 2: into The, English you're going to The english, versions et,
53:02
Speaker 2: cetera et. Cetera because why at the end of the,
53:04
Speaker 2: day this brings us back to. This this is one
53:07
Speaker 2: of the greatest passages for a pre trip, rapture, absolutely
53:12
Speaker 2: and that we are not to be. Fearful we are
53:14
Speaker 2: not going to go. In we're not going to see
53:17
Speaker 2: any of. This why are we scared out of our?
53:19
Speaker 2: Mind this isn't a word of encouragement to hang. ON
53:23
Speaker 2: i know you're gonna probably, die but stay strong to the.
53:25
Speaker 2: End this is why are you freaking? Out do you look,
53:28
Speaker 2: Around you're not in a. Tribulation you're not going to
53:29
Speaker 2: see the day of The lord stop freaking. Out that's exactly.
53:33
Speaker 1: Right any closing, Thoughts, YEAH i just want to encourage
53:36
Speaker 1: people to if this question here that we're talking about
53:41
Speaker 1: today is unsettling to, you don't worry about. It if
53:43
Speaker 1: you can't figure this out in the next few hours
53:46
Speaker 1: of the next few, weeks just, relax keep looking At,
53:49
Speaker 1: jesus keep studying the, scriptures and just let this simmer
53:53
Speaker 1: on the back. Burner but keep your eyes focused On.
53:56
Speaker 1: Jesus we're going to go up. Soon we may not
53:59
Speaker 1: go up as soon as we, like but we will
54:00
Speaker 1: be going up. Soon.
54:02
Speaker 2: Amen, Amen and so here we are with. Everybody thank
54:04
Speaker 2: you for listening, today and we will catch you next.
54:07
Speaker 2: Time