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Guest Hypnotist Ronia Fraser on Narcissistic Abuse Recovery · The Hypnotist

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Welcome to The Hypnotist, the show that gives you inside
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0:41
Hi. It's Adam here.
0:42
And on today's episode of The Hypnotist, I'm joined by a guest
0:45
hypnotist. We're here with Rania Fraser.
0:48
Welcome to the show, Rania. Thanks for having me, Adam.
0:51
So Ronya, we, we knew each other for a few years before we
0:55
started seeing each other at conferences.
0:57
But there'll be a lot of people listening that aren't familiar
0:59
with you. So give us a quick intro to who
1:02
you are, You know, for, you know, people that have seen you
1:05
will see this very striking kind of red hair and the, the outfits
1:09
that you wear and those kind of things.
1:10
But but for those that that kind of don't really know what you're
1:14
about, give us a quick intro. Yeah, so my name is Rania Fraser
1:18
and I'm a multi award-winning trauma recovery coach and
1:21
clinical hypnotherapist and I'm one of the leading experts in
1:25
the field of narcissistic abuse recovery.
1:29
And Needless to say, you don't end up in this particular line
1:32
of work. It's very specific unless it has
1:34
happened to you. So I'm a survivor of
1:36
narcissistic abuse myself, and when I was going through my
1:42
recovery, I got really frustrated with the lack of
1:46
health that was available because I was really unwell at
1:48
the time. I was really struggling with my
1:50
mental health as a result of what had happened to me.
1:54
And because I got so frustrated with nothing happening, like
2:01
even though I was going to therapy like every week, I
2:03
basically went out on this mission to find something that
2:07
could reverse the damage as effectively as it was caused.
2:11
And I didn't know what I was looking for, but I knew that
2:14
something had happened to me. And I just thought, you know, if
2:18
it goes one way to turn me into this mess, surely there has to
2:22
be a way it goes the other way. And I went out on this mission
2:26
to find something. And that's when hypnosis
2:29
actually came, came into my life and I basically made this my my
2:37
career because there's still a lot of disconnect.
2:40
There is still a lot of challenges when narcissistic
2:44
abuse survivors are looking for help.
2:46
It's become this major buzzword. But no help is available.
2:50
Very little effective help is available.
2:52
And that's how I didn't also started doing my public
2:57
speaking, giving the talk. So not only to help, you know,
3:01
survivors myself with with the work that I do, but actually
3:05
also raising the awareness for professionals, for coaches, for
3:10
therapists, for medical professionals to give them the
3:13
practical tools to help their clients better.
3:17
And when we met and we, I, I was just starting out, right.
3:22
I had just written like my first e-book and you were actually the
3:25
first person who gave me a platform.
3:29
I think it was like back in 2017 or something when I when I when
3:32
we first had our our first podcast or radio interview.
3:37
Yeah, it was in in London, Gloucester Radio back then.
3:41
You came into the studio and, you know, I was kind of struck
3:45
by, you know, one obviously you went through like a very
3:48
difficult time and it seems like almost like the brink and you,
3:52
you got yourself back from there and, and actually turned it into
3:55
something very empowering, you know, a mission to help other
3:57
people. And I think a lot of people in
3:58
this therapeutic space go through something similar in the
4:02
sense they go through like a real struggle and because
4:04
they've experienced that they really want to make a difference
4:07
to other people. But also, since we first met in
4:11
2017, this phrase narcissistic narcissism is everywhere.
4:18
You know, someone has a bad breakup, suddenly they're a
4:21
narcissist. You, you know, and it's, I, I
4:24
think you know, clearly there is more awareness of, of
4:27
narcissistic abuse. But I also feel like there's a
4:30
real danger where it's a catch all term that if someone is
4:33
behaving in a way that you don't want, suddenly they're a
4:36
narcissist. And it's, it's a way to kind of
4:39
help make sense of things for those listening and that may
4:42
have heard of this phrase narcissism and narcissistic
4:45
abuse. You're the expert here.
4:46
Give us a a definition of what it is but also what it isn't,
4:50
because I think that might be helpful.
4:52
Yeah, but it's a it's, that's the weird thing, right?
4:55
When we first met, it didn't mean anything.
4:58
So you were one of the very few people who just acknowledged
5:01
what I said and then wanted to know more about it.
5:04
Whereas now it's this buzzword. It's everywhere.
5:07
As you said, people get labeled as narcissist left, right and
5:10
center. I actually just last week, I did
5:12
a piece with the Telegraph where it was about kids having there's
5:19
like this TikTok trend. Supposedly, I'm not on TikTok,
5:23
but supposedly there's this TikTok trend when teenagers
5:28
supposedly get educated about what narcissistic views is and
5:32
how to identify a narcissistic parent and then they are being
5:35
advised to cut contact with them.
5:38
And obviously as a teenager, you will not agree with your parents
5:43
parenting. That doesn't make them a
5:45
narcissist, right? So it's incredibly dangerous.
5:48
And the term is getting misused so much because it's being used
5:53
out of context, which actually does no one any favors, right?
5:57
So on the one hand, it's a good thing that we talk about it more
6:00
because people don't get away with they used to get away with.
6:03
We are much more aware consciously, we can spot the
6:07
science, which doesn't mean we're not going to make the same
6:10
mistake again because that goes much deeper.
6:12
But we're much more aware of what behaviors are actually
6:16
unacceptable, what behaviors are abusive.
6:20
Whereas before, you know, we would have just brushed it off
6:23
as like, well, that person is a bit difficult.
6:26
However, if we of course overuse terminology, it desensitizes,
6:32
right? And people lose interest.
6:34
And the, the interesting thing is that we talk about it so much
6:38
and we are almost at a tipping point where people do lose
6:41
interest because they don't take it seriously anymore, which very
6:44
much impacts the people that are actually narcissistic abuse
6:48
survivors. But then from a professional
6:51
point of view, you know, that hasn't caught on yet at all.
6:55
So there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.
6:58
So narcissistic abuse isn't just breaking up with somebody.
7:02
It's not just somebody cheating on somebody else or somebody
7:06
hurting someone's feelings, right?
7:09
That's not narcissistic abuse. And don't get me wrong, every
7:12
breakup hurts obviously, and a broken heart is a horrible thing
7:18
to to experience. However, when we really talk
7:22
about narcissistic abuse, the symptoms present in a very
7:26
different way because it has such a profound impact,
7:30
detrimental impact to the survivors mental health to the
7:33
point where they are literally not functioning in, in their
7:37
normal day-to-day life anymore. You know, so it's really not
7:41
about a broken heart, it's about the impact that narcissistic
7:45
abuse has. Now, when I talk about
7:48
narcissistic abuse, I talk about abuse that's perpetrated by
7:52
somebody who exhibits narcissistic behaviors,
7:56
narcissistic tendencies. I don't care about a diagnosis.
8:00
I mean, I'm not a medical professional.
8:01
I cannot diagnose anyone anyway. But most narcissists that we
8:06
deal with in our day-to-day life, they won't have a
8:09
narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis because if
8:13
they do, they are already so high up on the spectrum.
8:17
And you know, they were like probably caught doing something
8:19
criminal. And then the psych evaluation
8:22
was ordered and that's how they got the diagnosis.
8:25
But just by the nature of what a narcissist is, they have no
8:28
self-awareness. It's not like they're going to
8:29
go like, oh, I think there's something wrong with me.
8:31
Let me get checked out. You know, So most people that we
8:36
experience and the people we walk into the trap, they don't
8:41
have a diagnosis at all. And again, it's not about a
8:46
broken heart or hurting someone's feelings.
8:49
Narcissistic abuse is actually psychological and emotional
8:53
abuse on the most sophisticated level.
8:55
So what we are talking about is like emotional blackmail.
8:59
It's systematic brainwash. It's the very calculated erosion
9:03
of identity. So there's so much more to it
9:08
and by labeling anyone a narcissist who doesn't agree
9:13
with us or hurts our feelings, that really, as I already said,
9:17
you know, washes down, narrows down the, the experience of what
9:21
an actual abuse survivor is experiencing, which actually is
9:26
a complex post traumatic stress. And I think people also get
9:31
confused because narcissistic abuse, because they hear the
9:35
word narcissist and then they hear narcissism.
9:38
You know, this element of, you know, the Greek myth of
9:42
narcissists who actually loved, loved himself, you know, So
9:46
those people that you know, have got high self esteem and, and
9:50
maybe they are on social media and they like the validation of
9:52
other people. Quite often that's linked to
9:55
what a narcissist is rather than, you know, perhaps some of
10:00
the more insidious or, or kind of calculating kind of
10:06
approaches. And I think some, you know,
10:07
you've mentioned a few things there, but gaslighting is, is
10:12
kind of one of the, let's say, kind of approaches that may be
10:15
used in, in narcissistic abuse. And, and it's, it's such a, a
10:20
sneaky thing because the moment someone questions what's real
10:24
and wasn't what isn't real, then they become heavily dependent on
10:27
the person that is giving them that information In the, in the
10:33
women, or I'm assuming it's, you know, more of a female bias.
10:36
But in the people that you work with that are recovering from
10:38
narcissistic abuse, how prevalent is, is gaslighting in
10:43
the kind of the form of the abuse that they've experienced?
10:46
Or is that actually overrepresented culturally?
10:49
We think it's it's more kind of significant than maybe it
10:52
actually is. Gaslighting is very, very common
10:55
and narcissistic abuse is one of the main tactics that a
10:58
narcissist will use. But gaslighting also falls into
11:02
the same labeling that it's so overused at this point.
11:06
And like in normal conversations, you nowadays will
11:09
hear something like stop gaslighting me.
11:12
While that person didn't gaslight you, they just didn't
11:14
agree with what you said. You know, that's a very, very
11:17
different thing than intentionally distorting your
11:20
reality to such an extent that you think you're losing your
11:23
mind. Completely used out of context
11:26
and gaslighting. I think in 20/22 it was even
11:30
word of the year, right? So with the awareness again, has
11:33
significantly increased. But then as a result of that,
11:36
it's been used out of context many, many times.
11:40
For an actual narcissistic abuse survivor, gaslighting is
11:44
absolutely detrimental because it's the abuser not only
11:49
invalidating your experience, right?
11:53
They also will destroy the reality to such an extent that
11:56
all of a sudden everything you think you remember doesn't seem
12:00
to be true anymore. And when this starts out, it's
12:04
it's quite subtle and it will go something along the lines of,
12:08
oh, I can't believe you said that.
12:11
I can't believe you did that. And then you will go like, what
12:14
are you talking about? I said that I did.
12:16
That doesn't even sound like me, but because that person who's
12:20
doing that most likely is the person closest to you, there's
12:24
no reason to doubt what they say.
12:27
So you take it as the truth. But of course, to see this
12:32
already planted now, right? Because then all of a sudden we
12:35
start questioning our memory. We start questioning our
12:39
reality. And once the the person on the
12:45
receiving end of of gaslighting, then we'll go, I don't know
12:49
what's wrong with me. I feel like I'm losing my mind
12:51
or I feel like I'm going crazy. The abuser obviously will
12:54
completely jump onto that narrative and reinforce it.
12:58
So we feel like we're going crazy.
13:02
We are told we are going crazy. As a result, we start acting
13:05
crazy because we are literally losing our minds because we are
13:09
being manipulated to act in that way.
13:12
People around us think we are acting crazy.
13:16
And that's how the the crazy woman becomes a self fulfilling
13:20
prophecy. And of course it can happen to
13:22
men as well. And you said it's probably
13:25
mainly women. Actually, it's not true.
13:27
My clients. It's like about 5050 actually.
13:30
And there's a big has been a big change in men coming forward as
13:37
well. That see that that's, and I love
13:40
learning about these kind of perception shifts in my mind
13:43
because I, I thought maybe it was like 8020, like 80% of
13:47
people suffering from narcissistic abuse would be
13:49
female, maybe 20% men. To hear that it's closer to 5050
13:52
is is surprising. That's based on on the people
13:56
that come to me for help. And it's just something that has
14:00
changed over recent years because for men, I think it's
14:05
already incredibly difficult for, for women because you are
14:09
just not being believed, right. That's one of the the hardest
14:14
things when we go through this experience for a man, I think
14:20
it's even harder to come forward because there is this, this
14:24
disconnect to even imagine that a woman would be able to do
14:29
something like that because women are seen as loving and
14:32
caring and nurturing, right? But then of course, not all
14:36
women, women are like that. And when I wrote my book, I
14:41
actually wrote as a version just for men because for men, there
14:44
is nothing out there. There is no resources available.
14:47
And actually a lot of professionals now you know that
14:51
do narcissistic abuse recovery, narcissist abuse recovery
14:55
coaches who are female, they actually will refuse to work
15:00
with men, which to me indicates you haven't actually done your
15:04
own healing yet. Now.
15:07
If you're still being being triggered by that, but I think
15:09
for men it's, it's even more difficult to find help because
15:15
there is this bias, you know, so, but it can happen to anyone.
15:20
It can happen anywhere. It doesn't have to be a romantic
15:24
relationship. It can be in the family, it can
15:26
be a friendship, it can be in the workplace.
15:29
And it doesn't discriminate against gender.
15:32
It doesn't discriminate against nationality or age or sexual
15:36
preference. It's it really can can happen to
15:40
to anyone at any given time. And I imagine with with certain
15:46
men, not only have you got the issue of recovering from the
15:49
narcissistic abuse, but this idea of because I think a lot of
15:52
men when they're in the receiving end of domestic
15:54
violence, you know, feel a lot more shame, you know, and they
15:58
can't talk about it because there's this element of, you
16:01
know, well, a man would never be, you know, receiving end of
16:04
kind of violence and those kind of things.
16:06
So it again, it seems like there'd be even more isolated
16:10
because of the perceptions of other people.
16:13
And I, I remember working with a, a guy that was very, very
16:17
successful in finance, seems like, and, and again, like you,
16:21
I'm in no position to diagnose, but seemed like his ex partner,
16:25
you know, certainly had narcissistic, you know, kind of
16:28
tendencies. And one of the tools that she
16:31
was using was kind of reputation damage.
16:33
It was kind of like going to all of those kind of shared friends
16:36
and kind of getting in there first to kind of frame things in
16:39
a certain way. Is that is that part of the
16:42
narcissist playbook that that kind of tool?
16:45
Absolutely. And it's that that one, I mean
16:50
everything that's being used, every tactic that's being used
16:53
by a narcissist is very calculated and is soul
16:56
destroying for the person receiving end.
16:59
Now smear campaigning is very, very common because obviously
17:04
what narcissists do is they create this illusion how to be
17:07
perceived. There are people, what you would
17:11
call communal narcissist, for example, they are very well
17:15
respected in their community. They do a lot of good things in
17:18
their community. But behind closed walls, you
17:21
know, it's closed doors, it's a completely different, different
17:24
story. So as the survivor actually
17:28
starts speaking up, they will change the narrative and turn it
17:34
around and turn it against their their victim.
17:38
Because at that point the, the, the victim really is
17:43
destabilized, right? It's talking crazy, it's acting
17:45
crazy. The mental health is completely
17:48
shot. And then of course, people will
17:52
naturally listen to the person more.
17:55
That seems to be more stable. And because we at that point
17:59
have started acting crazy and people believe that we are
18:01
crazy, it's very easy for the narcissist to just spin a story
18:06
that fits their narrative. And what it actually does is it
18:09
completely destroys the community support because they,
18:14
it creates cognitive dissonance for, for the people, which is
18:18
basically, it's a, it's a psychological phenomena where
18:22
you receive information that doesn't make any sense to what
18:25
you think you know, And it almost suspends your, your brain
18:31
because it just doesn't make any sense.
18:33
And because the narcissist has created this wonderful
18:37
perception about themselves, the stories that now all of a sudden
18:41
come out by the victim don't make sense to to the people.
18:46
So in the very early stages, what will happen, and
18:49
unfortunately, it happens to to all of us.
18:52
It happened to me as well is that people will turn their
18:56
backs on on the actual victim because they believe what what
19:00
the, the story the the narcissist tells, which
19:03
obviously is very, very calculated.
19:05
And when you are going through the darkest time of your life
19:09
seemingly without any support, If you, you are looking for
19:13
validation, you are looking for people that believe you and
19:17
listen that this actually has happened.
19:20
But because it doesn't make sense for those people, they
19:22
don't. And again, it comes down to
19:26
being incredibly soul destroying.
19:28
It's incredibly isolating and you are literally going through
19:31
the darkest time in your life seemingly all on on your own.
19:34
Now with smear campaigns, there is nothing.
19:38
There's literally nothing you can do.
19:40
So the more you try to prove them wrong, the more you come
19:44
across as a crazy person. And that that just feeds into
19:47
that whole narrative, right, Being emotionally unstable and
19:52
you know it. It's very calculated.
19:54
So with smear campaigning, unfortunately, the only thing
19:58
that can be done is let it wash through and what will happen,
20:02
and that's a guarantee. What will happen is that
20:06
eventually people will see through the mask because a
20:09
narcissist can't keep the mask on forever.
20:12
And then all of a sudden they start realizing, oh, there is
20:16
actually more to that because all of a sudden they saw what's
20:19
underneath. And then they will come and
20:21
reconnect. And usually then they are very
20:23
apologetic and that they didn't see that they couldn't help but
20:28
they couldn't, you know, they were as caught up in the net of
20:31
the the narcissist that has the actual victim themselves.
20:35
So with the smear campaigning, as painful as it is,
20:39
unfortunately all we can do is sit it out.
20:42
The people that are supposed to be in our lives, they will
20:45
reconnect, they will come back. Unfortunately, of course,
20:48
there's a time delay to that, but it will also eliminate the
20:53
people that actually aren't supposed to be in our lives
20:57
anymore. If somebody actually doesn't
20:59
reconnect and doesn't get eventually what has happened,
21:03
they're not supposed to be in our lives.
21:05
They're not our tribe. And what also happens is as we
21:09
then go through our healing journey and become very
21:12
authentic and who we are, a lot of those people actually just
21:16
don't fit anymore, you know, because they're not on the same
21:19
wavelength. And yeah, so smear campaigns,
21:23
very, very common, pretty much happens to every single
21:27
narcissistic abuse survivor. And we we've talked some of the
21:30
the tactics that lead to abuse. What happens if someone figures
21:36
out, you know, the penny drops. I imagine that, you know, there
21:41
there is this kind of point of realization of, oh shit, this is
21:45
happening. I need to do something about it.
21:48
Is, is that like an epiphany or is is this some like what was
21:52
normally the catalyst for someone realizing, given that
21:55
they have been gaslit, they are questioning reality.
21:57
They, they don't know who they can trust and they can't trust
22:00
what, what tends to be the catalyst for the realization and
22:03
is that realization, if it is a realization, the beginning of
22:06
the recovery stage, what, what, what's actually happening that
22:09
gets them to recovery? So the realization usually
22:14
happens very late when it's pretty much a life invest
22:17
situation because there is trauma bonding at play which is
22:22
a very complex topic. I give whole lectures just on
22:25
that which explains why people that are being abused are
22:30
staying in the relationship or keep going back.
22:34
So the realization most likely will not happen while in the
22:39
relationship. I didn't realize until I don't
22:42
even know how long I was already out of the relationship when I
22:45
realized. Oh, actually, that wasn't me.
22:49
That was somebody doing this to me.
22:51
I thought I was the problem. You know, I was living in
22:54
Hollywood at the time. I thought I was one of L as
22:56
fallen angels. I took like all the blame myself
23:00
for losing my mind. It didn't even occur to me that
23:03
a person closest to me was doing that to me.
23:06
So most likely the realization comes afterwards because once we
23:12
leave that relationship and we go no contact, our nervous
23:16
system starts regulating again. And it's like the, the, the fog
23:19
lifts and all of a sudden we can see clearly.
23:22
And of course that is the beginning of the recovery
23:26
because we need self-awareness to, to start with.
23:30
And that's the only way we can, we can move forward.
23:34
But unfortunately, when we're talking about abusive
23:37
relationships, that realization really comes very, very late,
23:43
where most of the time it's really the case of, OK, am I
23:47
going to live or am I going to die?
23:49
And that's a decision that we then make for ourselves, and
23:52
that's when the survival instinct kicks in.
23:55
So when you say my survival. Instinct kicked in before I
23:58
didn't even realize, before I did realize that I was being
24:00
abused. Yeah.
24:01
When you say live or die, are we talking like the death can you
24:06
know, it it leads to accidents? We're talking like suicides that
24:09
you know that that it can go in that direction.
24:12
Yes. So we are talking about you know
24:17
something the the perpetrator does something we are also
24:20
talking about which is I think much more common the the victim
24:26
actually doing something themselves.
24:28
So basically, and it happened to me as well where the my
24:33
ex-boyfriend would actually get me to a point where I would hate
24:37
myself so much but I took it for the truth where he would, you
24:42
know, break me down emotionally and then he would leave knives
24:45
or box cutters lying around and for me to do his dirty work.
24:50
Now, if I had actually done that and if I had gone through with
24:55
it, nobody would have bet in an eyelid because everybody thought
24:59
I was crazy anyway. I was just like this crazy chick
25:01
from Hollywood. You know, nobody would have
25:04
questioned how this actually came to be, even though some
25:10
people might have then thought, oh, it's a bit out of character,
25:12
but you know, crazy woman, nobody would have questioned
25:18
that. The person actually gave me the
25:20
tools to do it. And I luckily I clocked it, you
25:23
know, and I called him out on it.
25:25
But in the moment itself, I didn't even realize the
25:28
seriousness of, of the the issue.
25:32
You know, I said to him, take your box cutters because I'm
25:35
going to use them. And he said, oh, don't be silly.
25:39
You wouldn't do that to me. And so there was like this part
25:43
in me that was still sane enough to actually noticed that.
25:48
And I left shortly after because I didn't trust myself and I knew
25:52
if I stayed another four weeks, I literally would be dead.
25:55
So that's actually something that needs to be talked about
25:59
more. And there is a lot of talk and
26:04
raising awareness about male suicide.
26:07
No one ever really talks about female suicide.
26:10
And I think that's something that really needs to be
26:13
questioned because many times there is somebody in the
26:18
background that actually pulls, pulls the strings there.
26:21
And narcissistic abuse has very, very detrimental consequences
26:26
for for the survivor. And as I said, it can literally
26:30
be a life and death situation. I think there was a high profile
26:33
case in the media here in the UK maybe 3 or 4 weeks ago where
26:39
the, the woman that died, she did commit suicide, but there
26:41
was clearly a long period of abuse that led up to that.
26:47
And because he wasn't actually the one doing the thing that
26:51
lead to the, the, the death directly, I think it was a very
26:55
mild punishment, if if any at all, you know, and it, and it's
27:00
a weird thing because clearly that was the, the major fact
27:03
that led to that person's death. So the UK actually it was last
27:08
year, two years ago had a case where the coroner actually ruled
27:14
the cause of death as murder. I think a manslaughter something
27:22
where where the coroner actually put a responsibility on the
27:30
partner or ex partner, which was a first.
27:34
You know, that had never happened before anywhere else
27:36
in, in the world before. And I actually, I did like a
27:41
whole press campaign. I put out a press release and
27:44
everything. Nobody picked it up because
27:46
nobody wanted to talk about it. It's like one of those topics
27:49
that really need to be talked about more.
27:51
But it's just, you know, it's, it's a tricky topic to, to talk
27:57
about. And because there is no, no real
28:00
evidence, which unfortunately narcissistic abuse survivors
28:04
always have to deal with because it's invisible, you know, it's,
28:07
it's a very, very tricky thing. But I think we just need to to
28:11
ask those kind of questions more like what's actually going on
28:15
here? I'm looking at the story now and
28:18
it seemed like Kiana Doors was only 23.
28:23
She took her own life on a railway line.
28:27
And yeah, the abuse contributed to the woman taking her own
28:31
life. And yeah, it, it does seem that
28:36
the, yeah, the, the years of abuse from a partner led to
28:41
manslaughter charge, which I think was, was kind of like
28:46
fairly rare for it to kind of happen.
28:48
But luckily they they did join the dots in that case.
28:51
Well, it should be. It should be murder, really,
28:53
because it's all calculated. And.
28:57
But yeah, so I think that that's the second case then.
29:00
And nowhere else in the world has that happened other than the
29:03
UK like in Germany, for example. I do quite a bit of work in
29:05
Germany as well. It's not even acknowledged as as
29:09
a crime. You know, like in the UK, you
29:12
have coercive control is a crime.
29:14
It's in the law. Somebody can, you know, go to
29:17
prison for that. In Germany, it doesn't exist.
29:20
It's not acknowledged whatsoever.
29:22
Wow. So let's say someone's come to
29:25
the realization that they were a victim of narcissistic abuse.
29:31
They're starting to retrospectively put the pieces
29:33
together. What what does it take to kind
29:37
of go on that journey to actually reach a point where
29:41
they could consider themselves whether it's healed, recovered,
29:44
whatever the right phrase is. But I imagine that's not, you
29:47
know, an overnight thing. No, it's absolutely not.
29:50
And it's quite multi layered as well.
29:53
And what happens to a lot of narcissistic abuse survivors is
30:00
that they gain an incredible in depth knowledge about the topic.
30:05
Like I literally haven't met a single one who couldn't write
30:07
APHD on narcissists. It's part of the recovery
30:11
journey because what happened to us is so out of this world.
30:14
You know, when we are brainy people, we need to cognitively
30:18
understand what actually has happened here.
30:21
So it's a very big part of the recovery journey to understand,
30:25
you know, OK, so that's a narcissist, that's narcissistic
30:28
abuse. This actually wasn't my fault.
30:30
This was done to me. But what also that needs to
30:33
happen is that you need to come to the realization you know
30:38
everything you need to know. And I'm not saying everything
30:41
there is to know because with it being this buzzword, somebody
30:44
comes up with new terminology every single day.
30:47
Like I don't even when people always send me stuff like, have
30:50
you seen this? Have you heard about this?
30:52
I'm like, I don't care. There is a point where you know
30:55
everything you need to know and then you got to step out of the
30:59
cognitive function and every single narcissistic abuse
31:03
survivor will know that that even though they have all this
31:06
in depth knowledge, they're still struggling with their
31:08
mental health. They're still compromising on
31:11
living their life the way they would because they are avoiding
31:14
triggers. So it gives this illusion that
31:18
they are better because they feel safer having all of this
31:21
knowledge, but they also need to realize that they actually
31:25
altered their normal way of being to such an extent that
31:29
it's very limiting because you know you are avoiding the
31:33
triggers. So what the recovery really
31:36
needs to then be taken out of the cognitive function because
31:39
you cannot rationalize trauma away.
31:42
And that's where we then dive deeper.
31:44
And hypnosis, of course, is the perfect tool to facilitate that
31:48
because it allows us to step outside of the cognitive
31:51
function to access our unconscious mind, our inner
31:54
wisdom, our inner resources, and really do work on a deep level.
32:00
As you know, deep as it was caused because narcissistic
32:03
abuse effects us emotionally, mentally, spiritually,
32:07
physically. It's so multilayered.
32:10
So as long as somebody keeps their recovery, it's not
32:14
actually really recovery in the cognitive function.
32:17
You're not going to come out the other side and then repeat.
32:20
Trauma will become very, very common because you know
32:24
everything about narcissists, you know all the red flags, but
32:27
then some other different shade of narcissist comes along and we
32:33
walk into the same trap again because we actually haven't done
32:35
the healing work that's that's necessary.
32:38
Reprogramming faulty programs. You know that that gets us into
32:42
trouble over and over again, and you know that you have recovered
32:48
when you are very authentic in yourself, when you have healthy
32:53
boundaries in place, and when you actually don't have the
32:59
emotional triggers anymore. Like, for example, I couldn't be
33:04
doing the work that I'm doing if I hadn't undergone my healing
33:07
first because that's what actually allows me now to hold
33:11
the space for somebody else because I'm clean.
33:14
If I hadn't done that, I would be working with somebody who,
33:19
you know, is working through their own narcissistic abuse
33:22
journey. And it would emotionally trigger
33:24
me, which then would obviously interfere with withholding space
33:28
because all of a sudden I would feel anxious.
33:30
You know, I would have some sort of emotional reaction.
33:34
So when you have undergone your recovery and what happens is
33:40
that you're just very solid in yourself.
33:43
You're very content, your nervous system is very stable
33:47
and you have become very resilient.
33:49
So then when actually life throws curveballs at you, which
33:53
it always does, the way you can deal with those kind of
33:56
situations, it's much more healthy.
33:58
You know it doesn't send you in like an emotional meltdown as it
34:02
would when you are in a highly activated state, as you would be
34:06
when you come out of a narcissistic relationship,
34:08
obviously. And obviously it is
34:11
multifaceted. There's going to be different
34:13
kind of things. But is there, you know, a
34:15
crucial thing that almost has to happen to get to that point of
34:20
healing? You know, because let's say in
34:23
in grief, you'd say right, at some point you have to get to
34:26
acceptance, you know, in order to go through the grieving
34:28
process. What would be the equivalent in
34:31
narcissistic abuse recovery where it's just it's such a
34:33
vital ingredient that healing is very difficult without that
34:36
thing? It's acceptance.
34:39
It always is acceptance, and acceptance is one of the hardest
34:45
things. Like regardless of what it is
34:48
that you're dealing with, what kind of challenge it is, just
34:50
accepting that this is what it is.
34:53
That's the status quo and without judgement, letting it be
34:59
that that's that's necessary for any kind of change work You,
35:03
you, you want to do. So grief and narcissistic abuse
35:07
recovery, like the motions of grief and narcissistic abuse
35:12
recovery, it's actually not that dissimilar.
35:14
I developed a framework which I called The Road to Recover Me,
35:19
which is in my, my ebook, where it actually is based on, on the
35:26
grief curve. Because you go through the same
35:29
thing, you know, like the realization, the denial, and
35:33
it's the same, it's the same motions.
35:35
And I think realizing that is incredibly powerful because we
35:40
tend to fight supposed bad emotions and no bad emotions,
35:46
and because there is so much overwhelm of grief and sadness,
35:50
which has a very valid reason and narcissistic abuse.
35:54
But that's, that's what we then when we are at that stage,
35:58
really are fighting when in reality it's a very normal
36:02
reaction to an incredibly abnormal situation.
36:05
So the we go through the same motions as we would when we
36:12
grieve someone, but who we are actually grieving is ourselves.
36:16
And I think that's also huge realization because we talked
36:20
about death before, so we talked about the physical death.
36:23
But it's remember when I said earlier, a big part of the
36:27
narcissistic views is the very tactical emotional identity that
36:32
actually we witness our own death.
36:35
That's what happens. And if somebody hasn't
36:38
experienced narcissistic abuse and they're listening right now,
36:41
they're like, what the heck is she talking about?
36:43
But if somebody has experienced it, they know exactly what I'm
36:46
talking about right now because you're literally watching
36:48
yourself die and you look in the mirror and you don't recognize
36:52
the person looking back at you. And I remember I was at a point
36:55
where I literally asked myself, how am I sitting here still
36:59
breathing when I have died? You know?
37:03
So I think that understanding helps both the survivor and
37:10
people dealing with the survivor, whether it's family or
37:13
whether it's a therapist, to really put that into context,
37:17
you know, because we wouldn't judge anyone who's grieving for
37:20
a loved one either. You know, we would hold space
37:23
for them. We would allow them to go
37:24
through the motions of grief, and the same applies when when
37:29
we're actually graming, graming ourselves.
37:31
Yeah, I think it's it's quite a powerful metaphor at some level
37:35
because you are grieving the version of you that you were,
37:38
you know, and and if that took place over many, many years, you
37:42
know that person, even if it felt very difficult to be that
37:45
person. But, you know, part of the
37:46
acceptance is leaving that version in the past.
37:49
A quick question because I know you're going to do a a bit of
37:53
hypnosis or an experience for us.
37:56
I don't know if it's just a, a perception.
38:00
Again, maybe it's true, maybe it's not true, but there is a a
38:04
belief, I think that empaths attract narcissists.
38:09
Is that just a misconception or is there an element of of truth
38:12
to that? No, that's, that's true.
38:15
And so if you think about it, an empath and a narcissist, they're
38:18
basically two sides of the same coin, right?
38:22
And that's also why it's so magnetic, actually, why they are
38:25
so drawn to each other. And as an empath, we care
38:30
deeply, we love deeply. And often times we have a faulty
38:37
conditioning from, from our upbringing, right, that we then
38:41
end up sacrificing ourselves for the sake of love.
38:45
And if we have a program like that running in the background
38:48
and until something happens, we are not aware of that at all.
38:52
You know, it's just always been that way.
38:55
That obviously opens ourselves up to situations like that
39:01
because every narcissist has a sob story.
39:03
And then what happens? And I did the same thing.
39:06
And I did it so many times until it almost cost me my life.
39:11
Let me save you with all this love I have to give.
39:15
And now let me convince you how lovable, how worthy you are when
39:21
actually this love we should direct at at ourselves.
39:26
And again, that opens us up to actually walking into the trap.
39:31
Because what does the narcissist do?
39:32
They create this illusion. They match in mirrors to such an
39:36
extent we actually fall in love with ourselves.
39:39
And you know, they share the same insecurities, they the same
39:43
vulnerabilities, the same fears, the same dreams, supposedly.
39:47
And that's how all of a sudden, very quickly they become the
39:50
soulmate. And then for the very first
39:52
time, you then feel may be seen or heard or worthy or lovable or
39:58
good enough. And that's that's where the
40:02
healing and also needs to really address that because that's the
40:07
carrot that a narcissist waves. And unless that heart is healed,
40:12
unless that need that wasn't met for all our lives actually is
40:18
met from the inside out, that carrot will always be appealing,
40:22
regardless of what kind of narcissist.
40:25
We, we are dealing with so in, in my work, it's very important
40:33
for me because I'm an empath as well.
40:36
But there is a way to actually be an empath, which is a
40:40
beautiful thing. We wouldn't want to take that
40:43
away, right? It's a beautiful quality to have
40:45
to love and to care about other people.
40:49
But there is a way to keep all of that, that let go of
40:53
everything that doesn't serve us, which actually allows us to
40:57
be empathic, but in a healthy way without sacrificing
41:01
ourselves. And that has to be the goal of
41:04
narcissistic abuse recovery because that's something we want
41:09
to keep. You know, if you think about it,
41:10
if there were more empath in the world, it would be a much better
41:13
place. But unfortunately, the empath,
41:16
you know, they have faulty wiring as much as the narcissist
41:20
because they sacrifice themselves, they get themselves
41:23
into trouble. And what healing work, deep
41:27
healing work actually does is to really balance that out, you
41:30
know, and then be able to do fantastic things and to help
41:35
other people and doing it in in a healthy way without, you know,
41:41
the suffering and while still being very authentic with
41:45
yourself. Yeah, and having those
41:47
boundaries to to stop history repeating, I think it's also an
41:51
important thing. We're both talking at the Irish
41:53
Hypnotherapy conference literally in in a few weeks, I
41:56
think about four weeks time. I'm I'm guessing you're talking
42:00
about narcissistic abuse recovery there.
42:02
And you have a post conference workshop.
42:04
Tell us a little bit of what people can expect from your talk
42:08
there. Yeah, so I will be giving an
42:10
introduction into narcissistic abuse recovery.
42:14
So the focus really is about the recovery.
42:17
I'm not going to give a lecture about narcissists and how they
42:20
work and how they think and how to figure them out because it's
42:23
not about them at all. So I will be sharing what
42:28
narcissistic abuse really is, as we touched on already as well,
42:32
what makes it so dangerous, how we can actually spot it in
42:36
ourselves and others. And I will give an intro into
42:41
how we can then utilize hypnosis to actually facilitate the
42:44
healing to help somebody come out the other side.
42:47
So whether you are a survivor yourself, it will help you that,
42:53
that hope will help you to have an idea of what's actually
42:57
available and that there is a very practical solution
43:00
available and what you can expect when you work with with a
43:05
with a therapist, what to look out for also.
43:07
But if you are a therapist, a coach, a hypnotherapist, medical
43:11
professional, it really is intended to give you an idea how
43:16
you can then facilitate a healing for for your clients.
43:19
Perfect. And if anyone's interested in
43:22
seeing Rania and myself at the Irish Hypnotherapy Conference,
43:24
the website is Irish Hypnotherapy Conference dot IE,
43:28
so check that out. And Rania, if people want to
43:30
learn more about you, what's the best website they can go to?
43:34
My website isronniefraser.com and you can find me on Facebook
43:39
and Instagram as well. Rock'n'roll coach Ronnie.
43:43
Ronniefraser.com and Rock'n'roll Ronnie.
43:47
Perfect. So we've we've got those places.
43:50
We'll put them in the show notes as well.
43:51
But you've got a bit of an experience which is going to
43:54
keep us safe from negative energy.
43:56
So talk us through that. I'm going to put myself on you
43:58
and then it's it's over to you. OK, So what I would like to
44:03
share with you is the really simple, nice little exercise.
44:08
And the interesting thing about narcissistic abuse is we can try
44:13
to rationalize it as much as we want.
44:17
There is so much more happening there and there is a very strong
44:21
energetic connection between a narcissist and their their
44:26
victim. And especially if you are an
44:27
empath, you know from your own experience how vulnerable you
44:32
are to energy vampires. So what I would like to share
44:37
with you today is how we can create an energetic protective
44:42
shield that actually protects you from those energy attacks.
44:48
And it's a very simple exercise, and I'm going to teach it to you
44:53
today. And then you can do it as many
44:55
times as you like for as many different purposes as you like.
45:00
And I would like to invite you to just pause for a moment and
45:03
go get like a ring and necklace, maybe your glasses, maybe
45:09
earrings, something that you wear that you can put on and get
45:15
something that doesn't have a meaning just yet.
45:19
So not your wedding ring or something like that.
45:23
If you don't have anything at hand right now, you can always
45:27
listen to the replay, you know, go and get something.
45:31
And as I said, I will teach you how to do it and then you can do
45:35
it yourself as many times and for as many purposes as you
45:38
need. So get your item of choice and
45:43
then come back. Good.
45:47
So now go ahead and place this item in your hand and close your
45:56
hand around this item, whether it's a ring or a necklace or
46:01
bracelet or anything else, and really get a sense of that item
46:08
in your hand. And you may want to close your
46:10
eyes if that helps you really connecting with the item in your
46:14
hand and get a sense of the form, the shape, the weight, the
46:21
temperature. That's right.
46:26
And what we are going to do now is we are going to place an
46:30
energetic protective shield on this item.
46:33
So every time you put it on, you will be protected from this
46:39
negative energy. Now for this purpose of today, I
46:42
would like you to pick one very particular purpose that you
46:48
would like to have energetic protection from.
46:50
And that can be one particular person or it can be narcissistic
46:55
energy in general or anything else.
46:59
And really get really clear on what it is that you would like
47:03
to feel protected from. And don't worry about it.
47:06
You can create as many as you like get and as you're clear on
47:15
the purpose of this energetic protective shield that we are
47:18
going to place on this item right now, go ahead and let this
47:23
energetic shield expand from the item in your hand and surround
47:29
you from the top of your head all the way down the tips of
47:33
your toes. And I don't know what color this
47:37
protective shield has, but I do know that you can tweak it
47:44
exactly how you need it. So go ahead and tweak the color,
47:49
tweak the temperature, the strength of the shield, play
47:53
around with it to make it feel right for you.
48:01
That's right. And notice how much more
48:04
protected you already feel. That's right.
48:07
Very good. And then go ahead and let that
48:09
shield collapse into the item that you're holding in your
48:14
hand. Very good.
48:17
And then expand and collapse, expand, collapse.
48:24
I really notice how you are in control here.
48:27
And every time you expand, you can keep tweaking it as you like
48:31
it. Expand, collapse, expand,
48:36
collapse. That's right, very good.
48:39
And then I'll go ahead and put that item on.
48:43
So if it's a ring, put it on your finger.
48:45
If it's a bracelet, put it on your arm and necklace, put it
48:49
around your neck. And then one more time, go ahead
48:54
and expand this energetic protective shield around you.
49:00
Take a deep breath in and really notice what you notice.
49:05
That's right. And if you want, you can leave
49:08
it activated. If not, and you don't need it
49:11
right now, go ahead and let it collapse.
49:15
And then you can take a deep breath in and open your eyes and
49:20
come back to the room, knowing that you now have an energetic
49:25
protective shield on this item of your choice, which you can
49:29
activate anytime you need. Rania, that was amazing.
49:36
Thank you so much for that. I now have a ring that protects
49:39
me from judgement, so I'm going to use that whenever I feel like
49:43
I need. So that's amazing.
49:45
What? Colour was your shield.
49:47
You know, it was, it was like a a force field of almost kind of
49:51
like, you know, there's kind of like glass things that have like
49:54
the electrical kind of things. It was kind of like electrical
49:58
kind of colours with like an energetic kind of like a science
50:02
fiction force field, something like that.
50:04
So yeah, I could, I could really picture it.
50:06
So that was amazing. Rania, give us your website
50:09
again for anyone that's listening that wants to check
50:11
you out. Raniafraser.com.
50:14
Nice and easy to remember, Rania, thank you so much for
50:16
joining me on the show today. Thank you for having me.
50:19
And you at home, thanks for joining me today on The
50:21
Hypnotist and see you on the next episode soon.
50:27
Thank you for listening to The Hypnotist with Adam Cox, the
50:30
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50:33
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