Latest / Identity at the Center / #285 - Identiverse 2024: Danny de Vreeze from Thales OneWelcome

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#285 - Identiverse 2024: Danny de Vreeze from Thales OneWelcome · Identity at the Center

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You know, the same kind of AI that you use with Open Open AI
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or ChatGPT and the Google AI or Gemini is being able to go in
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there and have an iterative conversation through natural
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language that's going to enable non-technical people to ask
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business questions and get real answers that they can understand
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and then iterate on. I do think we've got a bit of a
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challenge on that. I think it's going to be a art
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almost like prompt engineering. Where do you start and do we get
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the right answer to the question we're asking?
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And obviously AI sometimes can just go in the other direction.
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I've did some some of the try out over the weekend myself as
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well. It's interesting to see, but I
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mean, we're going to get there because this gets smarter and
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smarter. So I think this whole copilot
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the the conversational part is going somewhere.
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It's also fair to say, I think at this moment we're in not even
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prototype within proto hype situation.
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So everybody, it's a second buzzword.
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Well, we've seen some buzzwords in our industry, Blockchain, CEO
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trust. I mean, I had some CEO trust
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coffee today, I mean. With 100% extra AI, yeah.
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Actually exactly. But but I think AI is a
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different dimension to it because it's going to change
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fundamentally how we how we work with our systems.
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And I think that's that's a great addition.
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This is identity at the center if it has anything to do with
1:26
IAM. This is the go to podcast now
1:31
your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman.
1:41
Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast.
1:42
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
1:44
Hey, Jeff, how are you? Not so bad.
1:46
You sound a little gravely there.
1:47
For I know it's not sounding very gravely, what's going on.
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I don't know, man. You're in Vegas, so it's.
1:51
Very dry here in Vegas, but I'm having a fantastic time.
1:55
This is a very international conference, you know, I mean we
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have folks a lot from South America, Canada, Europe.
2:04
Just thinking of Espenbago who's here.
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He's one of our friends, friend of the show and you know, a long
2:11
time friend just mostly just from interacting.
2:14
He's just such a a great person. Our guest today, Danny, is
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coming from one of my favorite countries in the world, the
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Netherlands, which I always called just Holland, just
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fantastic place. And you know, it's one, I think
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it's one of the underrated aspects of this conference.
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So I've never been, but yes, it is a worldwide attendance.
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So you have already alluded to it.
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We got Danny Devries, he's the VP of Identity and Access
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Management at Talos. Welcome, Danny.
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Thank you guys. Great to be here.
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Well, thanks for taking the time.
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Definitely want to give a shout out to RSM for helping us get
2:47
here. And then also Cyber Risk
2:48
Alliance for giving this lovely recording space that you're
2:51
seeing on probably YouTube. But let's get into it.
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Danny, how did you get into identity?
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Is it something that you chose or did it choose you well?
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Actually it's a good question. I think it's a bit of both to be
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true for truthful here. I also realized this morning,
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it's my 25th years more as an identity and access management,
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although in the early part of this we would not be calling it
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like that. So did it choose me or did it
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did I choose it? I mean, let me take a bit of my
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journey. And by the way, I'm a business
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guy, yes. So you may ask me some very
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technical questions and it will be slightly more difficult for
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me to answer. But when I started actually my
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first company, we focused on a thing called enterprise portals.
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And almost immediately we ended up with a problem because I
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liked this idea of personalization.
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I liked us to actually bring things to customers in the way
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they like it to be. And we found out that identity
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information was not stored in one place, but in multiple
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places. So before we actually really
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could embark on a personalization journey in a
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portal, we'd have to sort something around identity and
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action management. I mean, we call it by then user
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management. And I heard my techie guy say we
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need a meta directory to aggregate all this kind of
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stuff. In the end, my interest it was
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delivering an answer by sporter. So I mean, I obviously ran into
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IM because of doing this. So did it choose me?
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Did I choose it? I think a bit about in this, in
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this case, I've been in this space ever since that moment we
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wrote, we ran more and more into the I am space user management
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focus on B2E enterprise portals. Early days I was running a
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company called Everett, which was in the zero is the largest
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European boutique as I and I am. So we worked with a lot of the
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the income players at that moment in time, Novell, Oracle,
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Sun Microsystems. Later on we saw some models as
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well coming up sale point. Obviously when the IJ motion
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started back in the zeros, we added some other companies to
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the portfolio. Obviously Bing we worked with
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and then for sure came from the micro system team.
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So I mean what we were doing is we were working for large
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enterprise companies in Europe. So we're not focused on the
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small medium. And I think what we always like
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to say is we work with complexity.
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We also like to say, I think some of my competitors are now
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using it, their complexity, deal with it.
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And that's what we what we did because we understood that if
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it's only 1 user constituency talking to one application, you
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don't really need us. But if it's multiple user
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constituencies, multiple departments, maybe internal and
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external, you've got tons of IM application, you want to give
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access to it and certainly you need to have something in
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between. So there was a great, great
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thing for me to do in the zeros. I grew the company pretty fast
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across Europe. So I mean, I appreciate that the
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center of gravity and I am then, but even now was a bit more on
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this side of the pond. But we had a great time actually
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integrating these technologies and working with the parties
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that came from this side and bring that to our customer base.
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The only thing which I realized is that complexity is not only
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in the first implementation, but also in the run stage.
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So another company which I had on the side of Everett was a
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company called Esse Everett Solutions Support Center.
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The idea was that companies needed support while they
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implement, run and manage the solution.
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So this is what we did, by the way, first second line support
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also for the big players. And we did, they gave the
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solution support for our customers because we believed
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it's not just the technology, it's actually the way it's
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implemented, how people are using it that needed to be the
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scope of support. Well, I mean, you mentioned to
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me earlier, but how did you end up in the cloud then because
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this was still all on Prem. Yeah, that's true. 2010.
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I said back, and I like to do this every once in a while, just
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think about, OK, what is the business model that's going to
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make my company obsolete? Because I'm fair believe that if
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you can think of such a model, you better start it yourself.
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That's right. Yeah, 2011, I started I Welcome,
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which later on became one welcome.
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But the idea that the business model that's going to make a lot
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of IT companies obsolete is a cloud based model.
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So at that moment HRCRM Finance was all going into the cloud and
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the thesis was why not? I am as well.
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Well, obviously in the US with a couple of companies that started
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in the same time frame, one of them being knocked out.
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So they went a bit faster than I did.
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There's a big difference, by the way, starting this in Europe or
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starting that in the US, But the idea was it should be possible
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to deliver all of this for the cloud as well, which actually
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meant that my other company efforts had to get adjusted.
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Because I mean, if you want to work with a cloud based, you do
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not implement it all by yourself.
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You can become slightly less technical, but you elevate the
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conversation maybe to business level, to architects, to
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security officers that now want to do things from the cloud.
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So 1 Welcome, I Welcome was founded on Valentine's Day, so
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not only a friendly company name, but also a friendly day to
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start. And I think I do want to
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highlight the name I Welcome later on.
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One welcome. I mean, we could have called the
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company I Security because a lot of the stuff that we're doing is
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security. But for me, I'm thinking back
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about the personalization thing as well.
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It is all about giving access in a frictionless way.
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I mean, frankly, you don't even think about security if you
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don't want to give people access.
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I mean, the one comes from before the other.
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I also believe that if you make things frictionless and easy to
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use, it's already safer. I mean, see the whole password
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discussion. I mean, I never believed in
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passwords because I mean, they are creating friction and if
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they need to be complex, they're not as safe as we want it to be
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because we're going to reuse somebody else's or we're going
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to use the same convention. So I welcome really started with
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ID. We need to make things easy,
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frictionless, simple, as good as we can.
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It's interesting. I just want to jump in on that
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point because I think it's interesting how you'll have kind
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of a push and pull between the business and security where the
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business wants to just let people in Six character or 4
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digit PIN would be plenty of security.
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The security team maybe wants like multi factor authentication
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etcetera, etcetera that that is still happening today in certain
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places. I think both sides are becoming
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more conscious of the other side and the rationale behind it.
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I also wanted to point out one other thing that you're talking
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about, like 2010 talking about the cloud, what's going.
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It wasn't a slam dunk at that time.
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It was kind of like, is this cloud thing really going to
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happen? Is it going to come to fruition?
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Ultimately? Obviously we all know that the
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answer is yes, but at that time it wasn't clear.
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Absolutely. And even more so in Europe.
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So what I used to do is validate any ID.
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So that starts with a PowerPoint presentation, talk to a couple
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of my customers in Europe. And then in the UK, the response
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was, well, Danny, if you organize it well, we may
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consider in the Netherlands it was like a 5050 answer and in
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Germany it was pretty clear as well.
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Nine, we're not going to bring our stuff to the cloud.
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I mean that was a very clear, clear answer as well.
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So where we are right right now is that actually that's ID
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obviously or the mindset has gone and today people are
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accepted to the fact that there's cloud still not every
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place it's getting a bit. He was a little rowdy in out
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there and Jim wasn't having. It so he closed.
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Sorry. Yeah, a little too much.
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I could hear it. It wasn't, It wasn't
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distracting. So.
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OK, so let's get back to the track.
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Yeah, you want to read the spot? We'll.
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Do it. We'll do it live as we do we'll.
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Do it live as we do. So I mean that moment in time,
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the cloud was a difficult thing, especially in Europe and Europe
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is not just one place. Each and every country was
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different and the the ideas around privacy is different.
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The ideas about cloud adoption was completely different.
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That has changed over the last 15 years, obviously.
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I mean, this is where we are today.
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Getting back to what you said about the difference of the
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business versus maybe the security domains, it's true, but
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there's also simple answer to it.
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Step up. Do not start with the most
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complex processes or requirements if it can be done
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with way less. Make it easier for people to
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join a website where actually privacy is not a concern maybe,
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or wherever you just need to get some lightweight services.
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And when things get a bit more complex or where you want to
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add, for instance, additional privacy measures, then you ask
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people to to, well, actually register to a different kind of
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authentication. Yeah, It seems like the the use
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case that I've run into a lot, it's like you want to buy
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something for $10 and do you want to go and create an
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account? That's too much friction in a
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lot of cases. Let them do a cash check out.
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Yeah, we should do this a lot, for instance with insurance
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companies. So if you have a travel
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insurance, I mean, do you need to get all your private
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information on it or I mean is the risk low enough for an
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insurance companies? OK, we accept a certain amount
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of certainty. That's right.
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However, if with the same insurance company, you're also
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going to use their health insurance and obviously there's
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a two sided where we want to have more privacy protection
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because me as a person wants to be protected better and the
11:57
company needs to protect your identity better.
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So and it's logical for you at that moment in time to friends
12:02
in the Netherlands use an Eid or have a multi factor
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authentication form factor being used.
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I mean, this is a logical step up in a journey which could have
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started with maybe username password for the travel
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insurance itself. So I mean, step up is usually
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the way out. And what I've seen a couple of
12:18
times when you talk to customers, it's it was also the
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almost like happy people could be enlightened.
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OK, we can find each other here because we can do both.
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Yeah, you can actually do both as long as you think it from a
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customer journey perspective. What's easier for you to use to
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start with, and what needs to be increased at some stage in time?
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Yeah. That's such a good point.
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And so that evolvement, where did that kind of lead you to in
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terms of this your journey? Yeah, So maybe we're now at the
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the beginning of the the tense. What we did with the cloud based
12:55
thing is obviously we found some good customers that actually
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wanted to try it out. What was really interesting to
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see is that some companies actually went all the way.
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So you had these earlier dots of cloud and obviously for us it
13:07
was let's focus on these guys and do things.
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The other thing which I asked my techie team to do is adhere to
13:13
at least one crank principle and that was be integratable because
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I don't want to get into a story with our cloud proposition that
13:19
we, yeah, you can only use it if we replace everything.
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If you've got some stuff over there which is already working
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well, we integrate with it. Being integratable is a key
13:26
thing for us to actually get into customer situation and get
13:29
them acquainted with, OK, this can work from the cloud.
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Well, they could still sweat the asset they had or actually for
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us not being just intrusive with everything else.
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So that's what we did in the in the early time 2015, two 1016,
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which I had to make a bet. I mean, as simple as it is, we
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saw how the Americans were growing, what happened in terms
13:48
of financing and it's, it's true you can sometimes outsmart
13:52
competition, but there is a threshold of money which you can
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no longer outsmart. So we have to pick up choices.
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And that's one of the things I did.
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I. I choose to completely refocus
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to the science side, which at that moment time was a really
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upcoming consumer identity and access management or customer
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identity and access management terms being used.
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I. Don't think we haven't decided
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yet. No, we haven't.
14:13
Decided yet so I used to take it from the consumer angle and we
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had this upcoming thing in Europe called GDPR.
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So this whole privacy awareness was just going sky high in
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Europe and I was looking at OK, I mean this is going to create a
14:28
lot of friction. This is what the general idea of
14:29
most people well that really didn't resonate with I welcome.
14:33
So what we did is we build a science platform, ground up,
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complete new data model underneath.
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And the idea was, let's see how we can make this conversational.
14:44
So how can we intertwine or inject consent while you're on a
14:47
customer journey and very conversation.
14:49
So let me just give you an example because that highlights
14:51
best. And let's assume you're using a
14:53
taxi app and then you order for a taxi and then the app asks
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you, OK, can I use your can I get your phone number so that
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the driver can call you once in front the door?
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Hey, makes sense for me to get my phone number at this moment
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in time, not before, because why these guys using it for for this
15:08
purpose? Actually, it makes sense.
15:10
So what the app does, it asks you the question, you give
15:12
consent to use, you give your mobile number, we store, OK.
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The consent is given for this purpose only.
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So extremely safe, completely auditable by the DPO, whereas it
15:21
did not increase any additional friction.
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Actually it felt very comfortable for the user.
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So this is the way we restructured our platform.
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And also let's end of 2016 that we certainly were ranked #2 by
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Gartner after Gigi and Gen. Ring, which were the income and
15:39
sign providers. I mean, in Europe, there was a
15:43
bit of a challenge with the traditional ones because they
15:46
felt and with GDP upcoming, this is all like almost like
15:49
borderline illegal getting so much data out of it.
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I mean, if it was true or not truthful, but I mean this is
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obviously the perception and with privacy you have to deal
15:56
especially early days, a lot of perception, same as with cloud
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by the way, but really, really have a story that resonated well
16:03
in the European play. So again making things
16:06
frictionless, again providing step.
16:08
Progressive profiling is the term you hear a lot, right?
16:12
Yeah. It was like real hot for a
16:14
while. You don't hear it as much
16:15
anymore, but sounds like that's kind of the vein that you're
16:18
talking about. Yeah, it's progressive
16:20
profiling, progressive consent that that's how we looked at it.
16:23
So and a deep progressive profiling was a huge one, was
16:27
like a marketing play. So get more and more information
16:30
and if somebody actually leaves his Facebook behind, let's see
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what we can get from it. Yeah.
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What we did is actually not using it as a marketing thing,
16:38
but really as like, OK, how we can we get consented information
16:42
from people that you can reuse well.
16:44
I think it was interesting that you use that scenario of the
16:47
taxi. And do you want the taxi to be
16:50
able to call you when they're there?
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That's a great way to say, yeah, This is why, you know, this is
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this is a great way to not only get the consent, but it's tied
16:58
to a service that the customer ultimately wants.
17:02
How important is it to find those those services to tie the
17:06
consent to and how difficult is it to track?
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Well, I've only consented to use it in this scenario.
17:13
So if, you know, DoorDash is very big, I use it all the time.
17:16
I want to know when my food is is about to arrive or if there's
17:19
problems, things like that. So I'm giving consent at
17:22
different points of my customer journey to say if they don't
17:26
have the item, call me right or make a substitution or things
17:29
like that. Talk to me more about that idea
17:33
of tying consent not just for collections sake, but for the
17:37
journey and the reason why the customer would want to give you
17:41
that consent. Yes, obviously that's that's
17:43
pretty bespoken because each and every company has a different
17:46
user journey and even companies in the same segment will have
17:49
different user journeys. So I mean this is actually where
17:51
I would say as eyes and other companies have to come in, they
17:55
need to somehow transfer the business logic into what we can
17:59
supply as a application fund because we're not nothing much
18:02
than that. The only thing we obviously had
18:04
to do is make sure that the platform is as flexible as
18:07
possible so you can actually accommodate all these different
18:10
kind of journeys. In the end it's not a different
18:12
from what you just suggest because you just asked
18:14
something, that's all. ID ask things and ask it in the
18:17
appropriate moment because that is going to be the killer.
18:19
It's not a killer as. The context, it's the killer
18:21
moment. It's why are you asking me this
18:24
and why do I want to give you that consent and from?
18:26
GDPR point of view, then you also need to make sure that you
18:29
store the reason why. I mean that that's key.
18:31
And then later on, obviously, you can also say, OK, this is
18:33
the reason why we stored, because the, the fundament
18:36
behind GDPR is ask for consent, show what you have stored so you
18:41
can actually change your consent.
18:42
And the third thing, I mean, protect the data as good as you
18:45
can and delete all. If somebody wants to delete it,
18:47
you don't need it. I mean, that's the kind of the
18:50
basic behind it, which we could support from the way you looked
18:53
at the world. I do think the security and the
18:55
privacy are two different concepts.
18:59
And here's what I mean by that. Like, so we're collecting this
19:02
information and then we have to secure it.
19:05
That's OK. So we're collecting the
19:07
information and all those checks and consents, and that's the
19:12
progressive profiling. That's all about the user
19:15
experience, right? The security is really the GDPR.
19:20
Now I'm saying this and I'm OK with being proven wrong or told
19:23
I'm wrong. But to me, when I looked at all
19:25
the GDPR and I haven't looked at it in a while, but all the major
19:28
fines were data breaches and all the data that got sent out the
19:32
door. So if I'm collecting Jeff's
19:34
phone number and then I'm deleting it because I no longer
19:38
need it, now I'm just keeping it because I'm a hoarder of data.
19:42
That's a that's what we're trying to prevent, right?
19:44
So now I get breached and instead of having 200,000 phone
19:49
numbers, I have 2000 phone numbers.
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My fine won't be as bad at least I don't know.
19:56
Does that make? Am I?
19:58
Am I? One point is correct, most of
20:02
the fine is on data protection and not so much on the privacy
20:05
part. That's a funny thing.
20:06
So I mean, and obviously the one goes hand in hand, but if you
20:09
have all your data consented and you lose it, I mean, it's still
20:13
a data breach, right? So, and what is one of, I would
20:17
say flaws almost is that we're not looking at how you collect
20:21
your data, but really actually looking at, OK, have you made
20:24
sure it's not being corrupted or it's not being stolen or there's
20:27
no breach here? This is where most of the fines
20:30
are that the mentality is changing as well.
20:33
I think the good news is that people are more aware now of
20:36
what what's being doing with data.
20:38
I also still believe that if you give me a nice present, I'll
20:42
give you everything I have. And that's obviously This is why
20:45
these kind of legislation has to come in place because sometimes
20:48
we need to assist people to be aware what to do.
20:51
I mean, I don't think we should pamper people because I don't
20:54
believe that's that's what we need to do.
20:55
But we should at least create awareness.
20:57
And this is what you do, friends with us asking the question at
20:59
the right moment. We're now going to use this
21:01
number, going to store it somewhere for this purpose.
21:04
By the way, if you want to change it, you can change it
21:06
somewhere else. Obviously, nobody does it.
21:09
That's the other side of some privacy needs.
21:11
Or every once in a while check what's being stored.
21:13
But you and me as a normal consumer, we still leave all our
21:16
data outside. So I think that still is a bit
21:19
of the challenge that that needs to be assorted.
21:21
Maybe we should be a bit more proactive as as a company, OK,
21:24
we've stored this information from you.
21:26
Do you still want us to store it, yes or no?
21:29
Which obviously is a bit difficult sometimes because
21:31
people do like to have the data. How much of a challenge are
21:35
abandoned accounts because you just, you know, you struck a
21:38
nerve there with me where people sign up for services, myself
21:41
included, and then they just stop using the service, but they
21:44
never actually go back and delete their account or change,
21:49
you know, information that might be sensitive.
21:50
Jim, I would say it's a business challenge.
21:52
I mean, so if you don't mind as a business, that's not a
21:54
problem. If you mind about the quality of
21:57
the people are using your service and if they are
21:59
repeatable users, yes or no, then obviously it makes tons of
22:02
sense to to clean it up. I mean, frankly, we can see
22:05
everything. We can do a query on how much
22:08
use for the account, which account will be dormant for the
22:10
next experience. But if I mean we can give you
22:14
the information, but if that ends with the action, then so
22:18
it's a business decision. I would say to clean it up.
22:21
I think depending on the kind of service you find on what
22:23
account. So it's a very lightweight
22:25
thing, people just if you just need something to get something
22:28
else, you may just want to put something out and you've got a
22:31
fake phone number, all that kind of data.
22:34
I mean again, it comes into thoughtfully thinking how you
22:38
engage and what you want to get out of it, if the data actually
22:40
is the right data and if there's a value or non value in the
22:44
number of accounts. And there's this balance, right,
22:46
that you have to really kind of straddle is, you know, if you're
22:50
a company, you want to have as many customers as possible and
22:53
customer data. But if you were to get breached,
22:56
you want to minimize the risk of that.
22:57
And the more customer and customer data you have the
23:02
potential for the risk along from the breach perspective.
23:05
So how do you balance that? So, OK, well we want to show we
23:08
had 100 million customers, but if those 100,000,050 millionaire
23:12
dormant, that can be a problem as well.
23:15
Well, yeah, that's that's another angle to actually make
23:18
sure aware that it doesn't make sense to have so many dormant
23:20
accounts. I mean, I don't think that's the
23:22
key driver for for businesses today, but I think it's much
23:26
more. I mean we like to look at from
23:27
how you actually grow your business and look at the top
23:29
line up much and that actually don't want accounts overly do
23:33
not mean anything. I mean there's a bit of a cost
23:35
attached, but that's not a lot. But this is a risk which you may
23:38
run into. But in the end, the value of
23:40
having accounts is that accounts interact with you and do
23:42
business with you. Otherwise, well, what's the
23:44
purpose? That's the difference between an
23:46
engaged customer and just a name and a name in a list somewhere.
23:50
That really. Isn't doesn't really care.
23:51
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think when I looked at
23:54
the the fines that can be levied from a GDPR perspective, I mean
24:00
the I mean the interesting of it is like it could almost shut
24:03
down your company. Yeah.
24:04
And it's that I think that's the one thing that's really
24:06
interesting for GDPRS is different for how we typically
24:08
see things in the US. It's like a fixed amount for GPR
24:11
though, it's a percentage of your revenue or something like
24:14
that, right? And it's a material percentage
24:17
of your revenue as well. But if you're in a multinational
24:21
company, right and it's not limited to the the revenue that
24:26
you get in Europe. So if you're maybe an American
24:30
based firm doing business around the world and you have a breach
24:34
and you lose all this data for European citizens, I mean, you
24:39
could have, you know, massive billions of EUR and fines.
24:45
Yes. And obviously that that's one
24:46
side, but I mean think about what that does with trust in
24:49
your Brent that's. True.
24:51
I think that's even more devastating.
24:53
So I mean, I think proper governance from any company
24:56
would mean less protected very well, because if we lose trust,
25:00
well, I think that's even farther away from being paying
25:02
off with a fine. So, OK, so we brought it up to
25:06
like 2016. Yeah.
25:09
So keep. Keep going.
25:11
Yeah. So, I mean, so the process was a
25:13
game changer in focus on this thing.
25:15
We also saw the market change. Obviously we infused this, this
25:18
constant and the friction experience, all that kind of
25:21
stuff. Fast forward a bit to early 20s,
25:25
what we saw obviously is that the market space was changing.
25:28
So I'm not talking entrepreneurial me.
25:30
I was looking at, OK, I mean this is a time to either go big
25:34
or go home and go big for me really meant, I mean there were
25:37
so many sub skill companies like ours fighting against the big
25:41
ones. So for us the way to do it is
25:44
OK, find a buy and build strategy, bring a lot of these
25:47
companies together and even I guess with most of my
25:50
competitive colleagues and we had a good plan.
25:53
So the idea was 2021 to more or less bring a lot of smaller
25:57
companies together, integrate and make a platform play from it
25:59
and have something which is not only European based, but really
26:03
global based until a company came by in the Netherlands
26:06
called Tallis. Well, Tallis is not necessarily
26:09
the most known quantity in the world on IM, but they've been
26:12
around for quite some time. And obviously in Europe they
26:15
were a bit well known because it's a huge company as a 20
26:18
billion company and and D face, but it's also 20,000 people in
26:23
digital identity and security. So I mean, nice combination of
26:26
both. You may not know, but all the
26:29
Eastern technology is from tireless.
26:31
Half of the bank cards are from Tireless.
26:34
If you look at driver's license, electronic drivers, Eids, border
26:37
control, Paymetrics, Dallas, and they had a portfolio around
26:42
identity and access management. So when I was doing my own play
26:45
on integrating all these different things and we looked
26:48
at user journey orchestration, so we started touching things
26:52
like wallets, Eids, validated attributes, identifier, IDV,
26:58
secure access. I certainly found that Tireless
27:00
Wallace had all of that somewhere in house and it was an
27:05
interesting kind of realization because it was like a candy shop
27:08
identity next management technologies.
27:11
And that made me wonder, I've got my plan here.
27:13
It's going to mean the next 3-4 years we're going to integrate
27:15
small companies and so on and so forth.
27:18
Or our Siam, which really is an orchestration authorization
27:23
engine takes all these different building blocks which are really
27:26
within this company. And I'll canmore or less have an
27:29
internal buy and build strategy here from a portfolio which has
27:33
proven itself and which has a global play, so.
27:36
One thing I wanted to ask you about, so Jeff and I were at a
27:39
smaller firm for I was there for 9 years.
27:43
Jeff, you were there for probably five years and it wound
27:47
up being acquired. And I think one of the things
27:50
that really jumped out to me is the importance of that cultural
27:54
fit. Did you find because you really
27:57
need to keep especially your star players, but really it's
28:02
continuity for the whole company because the star players all
28:05
care about the the players, you know, who maybe aren't the
28:09
senior executives. But I mean, really like that
28:13
cultural fit is so key. What did you did you come to
28:17
that same realization and how did it work out?
28:20
Yeah, it is a very good question because obviously everybody
28:23
asked me why, when are you leaving tireless?
28:24
Because you're a serial entrepreneur.
28:26
You've you've got your first boss here since you started
28:28
working. The answer to that is AI like it
28:33
and B, everybody understood that there are so many proper
28:38
building blocks that actually really start making sense if we
28:40
bring it together. So although it's it's a huge
28:43
company, the drive from above, but also from a lot of people
28:48
that actually were responsible for the different products was
28:50
OK, if we can bring this forward, if there's somebody
28:52
that brings in the energy to do it, let's see where this goes.
28:56
I'm very firm believe that you need to start with a vision and
28:59
secondly, then bring the team along.
29:01
I mean, without a vision, you will not be able to bring the
29:03
team along in a big company also need to be in a position to do
29:06
so. So I'm now VP, I am.
29:08
So that means that more or less all these different parts
29:12
reporting to me and maybe a bit of the startup mentality is not
29:17
taking no for Grant for granted. Just go out, talk to people and
29:22
make them enthusiastic and see where things go.
29:24
So I have to say within times, all the stuff that needed to be
29:28
done to actually make it a success was in place.
29:31
Then the question is, will it in the end work out because the
29:33
devil is in the details. Well, we are today.
29:35
You will see it when you're on the exhibition floor here.
29:38
A lot of different technologies that we have within Talos,
29:41
inclusive biometrics, inclusive identification, all these things
29:45
connected with RM portfolio hardware, software, logical,
29:48
physical. We're going to demonstrate down
29:50
here in the exhibition area. And it is because everybody felt
29:54
it's now time to connect all the pieces and Siam was the
29:58
connecting element. It's the glue between all of
30:01
that kind of stuff. So did I encounter different
30:06
cultures? Yes, of course we encountered
30:08
it. I'm also encountering that in
30:10
different places in the world. But I also have to say that
30:12
everybody bought into division and did the best.
30:17
And I mean, I think the biggest proof that we're doing the right
30:19
thing is that we're able to attract talent.
30:20
I mean, I think this is usually where things fail.
30:23
I mean, oh, that's a nice story. I'm not going to work there.
30:26
I'm going to be interested to see a lot of what you're talking
30:28
about, but Jeff always gives me a hard time about being a A
30:31
fanboy. Really what I'm a fanboy about
30:34
is the B to B piece. Because to me, this is my first,
30:41
you know, entry into the identity space was back in 2003.
30:46
I was responsible for at, at a company responsible for pulling
30:50
together all of our dealer facing applications.
30:56
What we are lacking was a common identity across all of them and
31:00
it's that B to B scenario. So we had dealership network and
31:03
it was the dealerships that went in to manage their own user.
31:08
So we had six different applications that we started
31:11
with. Each one had their own user
31:13
management interface. We had to get it down to one and
31:17
it was hard. There's a lot of custom
31:18
development required and over the years I've been waiting for
31:22
someone's going to take this problem and fix it with a
31:26
product. And yet what I continue to see
31:30
was the innovation on the authentication side has been
31:35
unbelievable. I mean, there's many different
31:38
solutions out there that I'm very impressed by, but I still
31:44
searched for who's going to solve this B to B user
31:49
management problem. Because here's the, here's the
31:51
thing, it's like the single sign on piece.
31:54
I'm not going to say it was easy to solve because I wasn't part
31:57
of solving it, but it was, you know, most companies don't have
32:01
a huge variance in terms of how they authenticate.
32:04
But when you talk about delegated administration within
32:08
B2B, there's a huge variance. And so the, the approach that I
32:15
saw the most was companies would go out there and build an
32:18
application to solve this specific problem that is like
32:23
one of the very few areas in enterprise IT where people will
32:28
go out and build their own applications for anymore.
32:31
And so when I saw that you guys would basically build a product
32:35
around that, I was like, OK, I really need to dig in because
32:39
like to me, even you can't even take the basics for granted.
32:45
Like what I call a dealer or a franchise or a brokerage,
32:52
another firm that's in the exact same space may call it something
32:55
different and then they may have different hierarchical models.
33:00
And let me start with the question, why did you even want
33:04
to solve that problem? It's such a hard problem to
33:06
solve. Why don't you just pick
33:08
something easier to solve and and just focus on doing the best
33:13
job at that? Yeah.
33:14
Well, I mean, that's a question I've asked myself a couple of
33:16
times in the past 25 years. Well, why didn't do something
33:19
easy? Because I've never been in an
33:20
easy space. I think it's the, it's almost
33:23
like the only white space left in our field.
33:26
I also believe this is the future white space.
33:28
So I mean, then if that's the case and obviously it's logical
33:32
for us for us to jump in, let's break down B to B bits to what
33:36
it really is because as you rightly said, it's a lot of
33:38
different things. So it is business customers,
33:40
that's simple. I mean, it's somebody ordering
33:42
something in your company on behalf of another company.
33:44
Still there's some mandation behind it because I mean, a
33:46
company cannot audit a person within the company will order.
33:49
So secondly, it's usually the ecosystems that you need to
33:53
manage, which can be somewhere where you're in R&D department.
33:55
But later on when there's a supply chain, there's what we
33:58
found, those will be tons of different people.
34:00
If it's capital goods, most likely afterwards there's also a
34:03
service ecosystem to manage. I mean, when the ecosystems get
34:05
big and then obviously the challenge is very big as well,
34:08
then a third more or less main case is what we indeed say it's
34:11
the dealers, the brokers, agents, the business to business
34:15
to consumer most of the time or sometimes business to business
34:18
to business to consumer or consumer in the end.
34:20
So I mean, these all these kind of things you somehow need to be
34:24
able to cover with product capabilities.
34:26
That's obviously a challenge. We've focused on that from 2020
34:30
on what's more or less so very strong capability in delegation
34:34
because this is where it needs needs to start.
34:36
It's a different thing also from the IGA side because you're not
34:39
talking about the scope, you know, you're partly talking
34:41
about the scope of people you do not have access to and they will
34:44
be invited to, for instance, new systems that you give to make
34:50
available to others. Second, critical capability is
34:54
what we call find grade authorization.
34:57
And the other thing which we typically see in a lot of these
34:59
kind of scenarios is distributed identity.
35:01
So you're using the identity which is outside of what you
35:04
control. So then orchestration comes into
35:07
place as well. These are the modules we have to
35:10
actually cope with the complexity.
35:11
And obviously it depends on which kind of customer scenario
35:15
B to B to C insurance company is different than what we for
35:18
instance, do for the European Central Bank, just to give you
35:20
that example. I mean, any bank has to login in
35:24
the in the ECB, but it's not a bank login, it's somebody.
35:27
So there will be a super use that super user can assign other
35:30
users that may actually be super used to assign other users.
35:32
That's right. So you see how far away from
35:35
your direct visibility of control it is.
35:38
And still you need to start checking, OK, other users there
35:42
been invited to get access to the system.
35:44
Have they actually accepted invitation, yes or no?
35:47
Hey, we see people are no longer using it.
35:49
So what does it mean? I mean, is the person gone
35:50
because you don't know if you're at the ECB site?
35:53
Another very critical one which we see is on supply chain.
35:56
So let me just give you an example of a, an airplane
36:00
manufacturer. More than 70% of a plane is
36:03
manufactured by somebody else in the company itself.
36:06
Think about it, we're not talking about 5000 people from
36:08
outside. Assembling right?
36:10
100,000 Yeah, because the cockpit is being built by
36:12
somebody else. Well, sometimes in this case,
36:16
but anything in the airplane is we built, a lot of things are
36:18
built by other people. And the other complexity here is
36:21
that they do not have to have access to that airplane in the
36:24
final assembly line all the time.
36:25
They need to have it for these two days.
36:27
And this guy is working in the cockpit, so he's got a clearance
36:31
on top level security. The other person installing the
36:34
toilet in the back of the plane has a different security
36:36
clearance and they all work in the same hole and walk in the
36:39
same hole. So, and this is another thing
36:41
which I like from being with Talas, this is, I'm not going to
36:44
promote too much, but this is something which actually makes
36:46
the story complete is it doesn't stop just with the physiological
36:51
part. This actually goes into the
36:53
physical. So actually we add to the
36:55
delegation model things like wearables that you can use so
36:58
you can walk hands free to instinct and you've got
37:00
clearance because you are the guy that has to go into the
37:02
cockpit and it's all being feathered.
37:04
And I mean, we've done the verification part with a
37:07
variable to authenticate, authenticate yourself and go in.
37:10
That same variable will be used by Jim three days later.
37:13
So we obviously have been connected to another delegation
37:16
model. So we actually combine all these
37:18
kind of things in a full proposition.
37:21
And I mean, I now make it sound very simple, but if you think
37:24
about different use cases, the different types of people, the
37:27
different kind of rules and roles that you have to somehow
37:30
fit in the authorizations, which are critical here obviously, and
37:33
the people that actually manage the authorizations.
37:35
I mean, it's a very very very complex problem, yet not easy be
37:39
solved by build yourself either. The crazy part is though, it's
37:43
like 1 product can fill that scenario, but it also could be a
37:49
fast food franchise model or insurance brokerage model.
37:55
It's really all falls within this B to B space.
37:58
It's a company interacting with it, with customers which are not
38:04
it. The actions are taken by
38:06
individual human beings, but it's on behalf of a company.
38:10
The relationships also, you know, the relationship of that
38:15
fast food company is really with the franchise.
38:20
It's the contract. Now all the people who are
38:24
acting on behalf of the franchise are operating within
38:28
that contract. They're agents of that company.
38:30
It's. Yeah.
38:31
And there's one constituency which we didn't discuss in this
38:34
context, we also use the same technologies for gig workers.
38:38
And that's interesting because I mean, what's going to happen
38:40
with this traditional employee, which is starting with HR,
38:43
whereas most of the company now actually have people that do not
38:45
start with HR, but they work for them for a gig for.
38:48
So think about seasonal labor, think about all gig works that
38:50
work for multiple companies. That's quite often bring their
38:53
own identity. So again, you need to
38:55
orchestrate step outs to what they do, bring wallet technology
38:59
and all that kind of stuff. And let me give you a very nice
39:01
example. Again, it's a bring your own van
39:04
for a post company. So these people around Christmas
39:07
New Year need more people to drive around and deliver
39:10
parcels. So there's a website where you
39:12
register. Then you add some of your
39:14
identity details, which will be a step out to a an ID provider.
39:19
Then obviously you need to prove that you've got a driver's
39:21
license. Again, step out to a driver's
39:23
license registry. Then you need to prove you
39:25
actually have the van. So there's a step out to a car
39:28
registry then the smaller stuff you need to do.
39:30
So I mean, if you want to orchestrate these kind of
39:33
things. And by the way, this person then
39:34
after all this fetting will be working on this one distribution
39:38
center on this corner of the country where actually the
39:40
person that actually needed that one has a delegated
39:43
responsibility to actually start this process.
39:45
So again, it all comes together. Same.
39:48
If you look at, for instance, you talked about restaurants.
39:49
We've got a very nice example in the UK.
39:52
I mean, they've got 33,000 pubs in restaurant, but there's a
39:55
huge amount of seasonal label. I mean, this is not high
39:57
security compared to the airline line manufacturer.
40:01
This is high turnover. And again, it's something you
40:03
need to manage. Yeah.
40:05
So interesting that it's like the internal or enterprise
40:13
identity management has become more commoditized over time.
40:17
And the reason why I think that that that was enabled was people
40:25
started just transitioning to these best practices.
40:29
The authoritative source for employees is here.
40:32
Maybe it's also for non employees, but maybe you have a
40:36
different data set for non employees and then you get them
40:39
into a centralized system and provision out their access to
40:43
use tickets or connectors. But that starts to break down
40:48
when you get into the CIAM model.
40:52
So here's, let me turn that into a question.
40:55
So you have the CIM model, but you still have to here's what
41:00
happened over time is that companies have taken what their
41:04
business processes with their customers.
41:07
They've been hesitant to change that, right, Because it's a
41:11
model that works. And when you only get one chance
41:14
to mess up with your customers, right?
41:16
So they take these processes from technology to technology
41:21
and have to customize and customize, which I think is
41:25
ultimately a death sentence. And what I want to know is like,
41:30
is that something you talk about with executives as you talk to
41:34
them about, hey, this is the approach that you should take
41:38
when moving your CIM program forward?
41:41
Or what are some of the other things, maybe in addition to
41:44
that, that you know, become your main talking points?
41:47
Yeah, this obviously is one because, well, you mentioned
41:51
commodity. I would say B2E use cases are
41:54
commodity. Everybody knows this for the
41:55
last 30 years. I mean, is it very different
41:58
from 30 years ago? Now technology's concept
41:59
different, but what you want to do give your employees access to
42:03
information is different, is more or less the same.
42:06
Siam on a very simple case, I mean a website and having
42:11
consumers is pretty commoditized as well because we all can do
42:15
it. It really gets more complex when
42:17
you talk about this B2B kind of engagement or where there's a
42:20
lot of other components that where there's an Omni channel
42:23
kind of approach. So what we've seen especially in
42:26
the B2B side more than even in any of the others is the do it
42:29
yourself. And it is because we would just
42:31
want to mimic our specific project procedures and processes
42:36
into the IT that we deliver, which works.
42:39
If you've got a use IT department, you know these guys
42:41
are here to stay. It doesn't work when your AIT
42:45
budget is shrinking because people want to start using
42:47
different kind of services. I mean that has to come with
42:50
accepting some kind of standard. And then the question is where
42:55
is the trade off between the configuration that you can do
42:58
with systems like ours, which actually can go pretty far,
43:01
maybe amends some of the ways you engage things and accept the
43:04
fact that that is still better than being completely dependent
43:07
on bespoke, custom and all these things.
43:11
So the further you go up to the chain in the company, the more
43:14
they realize that there's also future proof as being a key
43:18
element for what needs to be done.
43:20
I mean, is the gap is too big. Obviously then the gap is too
43:23
big. But I would say in quite a lot
43:26
of situations you can actually work with the current identity
43:29
fabrics that are around. So we're here at Identiverse.
43:33
What do you get out of a conference like this?
43:37
I mean, for sure for me, the different question for my team
43:42
and obviously we like to engage with customers.
43:43
We like to engage with some of the partners that we have a lot
43:46
of partners here in the US that's good.
43:49
It's also good to see where the industry is going.
43:52
Having said that, I mean that also happens in interactions
43:56
between the companies itself. We obviously hope to get
43:59
commercial success from this, but I really like to see what
44:02
the others are doing and engage a bit with, I would like like to
44:06
say, competitors or some companies which are very close
44:09
to us, because I think I mentioned the word integratable
44:11
quite a lot of time. There's a lot of technology here
44:15
exposed to us as well, which again may be a good integration
44:19
for us going forward. What's an area of identity that
44:23
you're really bullish on right now?
44:26
Well. I mean, the bullish part is the
44:28
B2B site. And then obviously, there's one
44:30
thing which everybody talks about is AI and why what I like
44:36
from AI is not necessarily, again, the security things that
44:39
we're trying to do with it, because we've been trying to
44:41
deal with it. I really like, again, keyword
44:43
conversational part of it. So use the chat, but use the
44:47
question, the conversation method to actually get into
44:50
data. And I would say use it for all
44:53
user groups. So I mean, if I'm a user of
44:58
system, I would like to ask, OK, what actually do you have on me
45:02
and get information back rather than starting to search
45:04
somewhere. I mean, this is the kind of
45:05
interaction which obviously I love as if you've been talking
45:08
about conversations all the time.
45:09
Something similar you can do on AP testing.
45:12
OK, we, we've got this model and we've got that other user
45:16
journey. Which one works better and where
45:18
do we see differences? Is that in the country?
45:19
I mean, and that kind of information cutting back in
45:21
natural language, obviously, or maybe say we're getting this
45:24
back in financial terms or in a business terms.
45:26
I mean, that makes tons of sense.
45:28
So I think AI can be great help for us in these kind of things
45:32
as well. So I'd like to take AI to the
45:34
conversation part and frictionless part on top of what
45:38
we can do with that to detect anomalies and that kind of
45:41
better, Yeah, security profile out of it.
45:44
Yeah, that's the way I see it as well.
45:46
I mean, I think one of the big benefits is when AI gets, you
45:50
know, the same kind of AI that you use with Open Open AI or
45:55
ChatGPT and the Google AI or Gemini is being able to go in
45:59
there and have an iterative conversation through natural
46:03
language that's going to enable non-technical people to ask
46:07
business questions and get real answers that they can understand
46:12
and then iterate on. I do think we've got a bit of a
46:14
challenge on I think it's going to be a odd, almost like prompt
46:19
engineering. Where do you start and do we get
46:22
the right answer to the question we're asking?
46:24
And obviously AI sometimes can just go in the other direction.
46:26
I've did some some of the try out over the weekend myself as
46:29
well. It's interesting to see, but I
46:31
mean, we're going to get there because this gets smarter and
46:33
smarter. So I think this hope Co pilots
46:35
the the conversational part is going somewhere.
46:38
It's also fair to say, I think at this moment we're in not even
46:41
prototype within proto hype situation.
46:44
So everybody, it's a second buzzword or we've seen some
46:47
buzzwords in our industry have blockchain CEO trust.
46:49
I mean, I had some shared trust coffee today, I mean. 100%
46:54
extra. AI, yeah, actually exactly.
46:56
But I think AI is a different dimension to it because it's
46:59
going to change fundamentally how we how we work with our
47:03
systems. And I think that's that's a
47:04
great addition. Obviously it also going to
47:07
impose some threats because I mean it works on the trust side.
47:10
So what will it do with trust? I'm not sure if we're talking to
47:14
Jim or he's a deep fake while I was in the same room.
47:16
So we know it is, but I mean, So what does that do for instance
47:19
with biometrics, I mean how is that going to change over time?
47:24
Is it, I mean so to impose all kind of new, new things to us
47:30
both in security as well as opportunity side?
47:32
Anybody who listens to the show knows I'm very bullish on AI.
47:35
So there will be obviously challenge to go along with it.
47:38
But I think I think your toy right the word I don't want to
47:41
pick from what you just as fundamental.
47:43
I think it's a fundamental change in the way that we
47:44
approach not only building solutions, but answering
47:48
questions that people are going to have.
47:52
How great would it be to have a conversation with your identity
47:55
platform? I mean, it sounds very nerdy to
47:57
say that, but to be able to get the information out of it in a
48:00
way would say, hey, you know, what can X organization do with
48:04
my data? What have I, what pieces of my
48:07
privacy have I, you know, whatever questions I want to ask
48:11
it, right? How can it be used and to get
48:13
back an actual answer that the user can understand is game
48:17
changing. And you're not talking to the IM
48:19
system, you're talking from a user perspective to your portal,
48:22
to your service, to your app, to your taxi driver.
48:25
I mean, that's obviously how it works.
48:27
And that's what I like from what you see AI can now do.
48:30
I think that that's one of the big game changers for, I mean,
48:33
there's also what we invest in right now because we need to see
48:35
how we can quickly integrate that into into the conversations
48:38
that we have with the customers from a techie enablement
48:41
perspective. So it's my turn to do the yeah.
48:46
You want to do like an overrated underrated like?
48:48
What do you? Want to have so we always go out
48:50
with a lighter note question. And so my what I've been pushing
48:55
for for a while is overrated or underrated.
48:58
Those are two options and the topic Is Las Vegas overrated or
49:05
underrated? Oh yeah, I think for me it's
49:09
overrated. Why do you say that?
49:15
We talked about artificial in terms of intelligence.
49:18
So I mean, it's obviously it's insane if you if you fly in,
49:23
flying over the desert and you see what's happening here.
49:25
And I and I see how much energy we consume, how much what do we
49:29
consume here? I mean, so obviously it's
49:31
fantastic that we have this this crazy place where we can come
49:34
together as people. But yeah, in the end, after two
49:39
days of walking around, it's done for me because then the new
49:41
stuff is is out of it and then you start looking at maybe a
49:45
little bit of the insanity of it.
49:47
So but if I leave home and talk to people and say I'm going to
49:51
Las Vegas, everybody says, oh, that's fantastic.
49:55
So what's really true? I, I guess I fall on the other
49:58
side. I think it's underrated only
50:00
because I think it's such a well built town for conferences.
50:04
I could care less about gambling or anything like that, right?
50:09
Drinking. I'm, I'm not a fan of like
50:11
either. I don't do anything but for to
50:14
be able to come to a town that is you never have to look for a
50:16
hotel room. There's plenty of them.
50:18
There's plenty of spaces, great spaces.
50:20
There's plenty of places to have conversations after the fact,
50:23
restaurants, little nooks, speakeasies like Jim and I went
50:27
to last night, right? Things like that where you can
50:30
have a good time, but you're not, I guess you don't, you
50:34
don't have to be in a situation where you're kind of the hustle
50:37
and bustle. It's a very interesting town.
50:38
It's very efficient too. A lot of the water usage here is
50:43
definitely recycled and things like that, but it is definitely
50:46
like an act of defiance. They have a city like this in
50:49
the middle of the desert. It doesn't make sense and yet it
50:52
for me it works. It's easy to get to.
50:55
There's plenty of things to do, see and, you know, work through
50:59
conversations or whatever, but only because I don't care about
51:02
gambling or, you know, drinking or anything like that.
51:05
I'm. Definitely in the underrated
51:07
camp. And so first I have to have to
51:10
justify that with, I think a lot of people hate Las Vegas.
51:13
I thought you did. No, I've never been on the I
51:17
hate Las Vegas side. I've had sometimes where it's
51:19
like you're there for a week and by the end of the week you're
51:22
just like, Get Me Out of here. But usually that's because my
51:27
biggest knock on Las Vegas is how expensive it is.
51:32
If you realize you've been here for seven days and you've spent
51:35
2500 or $3000, it's like unless you're like Uber rich like
51:41
that's you're going to be like, wow, that's I spend a lot of
51:44
money to be there. You know, there's all the $10
51:47
bottles of water and things like that.
51:49
But here's the thing about Las Vegas.
51:51
So I've been to a lot of cities around the world, but I've been
51:55
to most of the big cities in the United States.
51:58
There's nothing else like Las Vegas, right?
51:59
So it is completely unique. The other thing is you get these
52:06
epic things in Las Vegas. And one was one that I visited
52:11
yesterday called the Sphere. So we all know the sphere now,
52:14
right? You drive, you fly in, you see
52:16
this big ball and you're like, what is that thing?
52:19
And it's so cool looking. Wait till you go inside.
52:23
You go inside and watch like this movie that they have now
52:26
and you will be completely blown away.
52:29
And again, it's like only something they would do in Las
52:32
Vegas because you have so many tourists coming in.
52:36
Then finally, I'll say what Jeff said, which is it's a perfect
52:40
town for conferences and they try and put a conference in like
52:43
Dallas or even Orlando. To me, it's like super
52:47
underwhelming. There's so many drawbacks and
52:50
it's not laid out for conferences.
52:52
You almost have to rent a car or you come here.
52:56
You do not need to rent a car. In fact, I think you're crazy if
52:59
you do rent a car, that's just yeah, you just Uber around and
53:03
or walk and get your exercise in.
53:07
Like, I don't know. So I'm a clearly, you know, Las
53:10
Vegas is underrated. We're going to change your mind,
53:13
Danny. Well, let's do that, then.
53:15
Let's go out. We'll do that tonight.
53:16
All right, why don't we go ahead and wrap it up for for this
53:19
episode? Danny, thank you very much for
53:20
taking the time. I know you're a busy guy.
53:22
You got a lot of stuff going on and we're going to see you
53:24
probably tonight at the event that Talus and RSM are are
53:28
working on together. So with that, we'll leave it for
53:31
this week. We'll have links in our show
53:32
notes for people to check out Talus when welcome to link with
53:35
you on LinkedIn as well as Jim and I.
53:38
We're on the web idacpodcast.com.
53:40
We're on YouTube. Jim, I'm getting the I'm getting
53:43
the plug in.youtube.com slash at IDAC podcast.
53:48
Or you could just go to YouTube and search for identity at the
53:52
center, but you won't. Have to type that much.
53:54
Yeah, on the web, we're pretty close on the identity search
53:57
rankings. Now we're working on YouTube,
54:00
Twitter. What are we on?
54:02
Twitter IDAC podcast and I of course IDAC podcast and then
54:07
Macedon IDAC podcast at infosec dot.
54:09
Exchange How many connections do we have on Mastodon 3?
54:12
No, we have a few. There's a few people.
54:15
I think it's, it was the refuge from Twitter about a year ago.
54:19
I would say when Elon took over and started to cause havoc over
54:23
at X or Twitter or whatever. It's kind of died down though by
54:27
now, right? No, it's still, it's still
54:29
going. I mean the Fetaverse is they
54:32
call it. I never used it.
54:34
I know you don't. I do all the things.
54:36
I really don't care. I thought it was actually
54:38
running the the Mastodon account.
54:40
All right, let's leave it there. Thanks everybody for listening
54:43
and or watching. And yeah, we'll talk to
54:45
everybody in the next one. You've been listening to
54:50
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
54:54
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
54:59
But in the meantime, hit the website at
55:01
identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
55:07
the Center.