Latest / Job Hopping with Fexingo: Tenure, Loyalty, and the Modern Career Resume / How Job Hoppers Can Use Reference Calls Strategically
Transcript
- Lucas: Let me ask you something — when was the last time you actually prepped a reference before a job hunt? Luna: Honestly? Never. I just assumed if someone agreed to be a reference, they’d say nice things and that was that. Lucas: Exactly. That’s standard. And it’s a huge missed opportunity — especially for job hoppers. Because when you’ve had multiple short stints, the reference call is where a potential employer’s doubt can either get confirmed or completely dismantled. Luna: So you’re saying we should think of the reference call as part of the interview process — something we can actually influence? Lucas: Absolutely. I’d go further — it’s the one part of the hiring process where you’re not even in the room, but you can still steer the outcome. The problem is most people treat it passively. They list three names, the recruiter calls them, and whatever gets said, gets said. But if you’re a job hopper, that’s risky. A former manager might say, ‘Yeah, they were great — too bad they left after 14 months.’ And that single line can kill an offer. Luna: Right. Because the recruiter hears ‘short tenure’ as a red flag, even if your actual performance was stellar. Lucas: Exactly. So the fix is simple: you prep your references the same way you prep for an interview. Before you even start applying, reach out to each person and ask if they’re comfortable being a reference. Then send them a one-page summary — your current resume, the roles you’re targeting, and three bullet points you’d like them to emphasise. Luna: Three bullet points — specific, not generic, right? Like, ‘She led the migration to AWS’ rather than ‘She’s a hard worker’. Lucas: Exactly. And here’s the key: you also tell them how to handle the tenure question. You literally say, ‘If they ask why I left after 14 months, here’s the framing — I completed the project I was hired for, and then I moved on to a role with more responsibility.’ You’re giving them language that turns a potential negative into a positive narrative. Luna: That’s smart. But doesn’t it feel a bit… orchestrated? Like you’re scripting them? Lucas: A little, but it’s not manipulation — it’s alignment. Your reference wants to help you. They just don’t know what to say unless you tell them. And if you don’t, they’ll wing it, and that’s when accidents happen. I had a friend — brilliant product manager, three jobs in five years. His former boss said on a reference call, ‘He’s great, but he tends to get bored after a year.’ That one phrase cost him the offer. Luna: Ouch. And that boss probably meant it as a compliment — like, he’s too smart to stay in a role that’s no longer challenging. But it came across as flaky. Lucas: Exactly. So you control the narrative upfront. And you don’t just send an email — have a 10-minute call. Walk them through what the new role is, why you’re excited, and what specific skills you want highlighted. Then after the call, follow up with a thank-you note that recaps the key points. That way, if they get a call three weeks later, they have a cheat sheet. Luna: That reminds me of something a recruiter told me once — she said the best references are the ones who sound like they’ve rehearsed, but in a good way. They’re focused, they give concrete examples, and they don’t ramble. Lucas: That’s exactly what we’re going for. And here’s another angle — you can actually ask your reference to mention your growth mindset specifically. Something like, ‘Every 18 months, she seeks out a new challenge where she can learn a new domain.’ That reframes job hopping as intentional career development. Luna: But what if your reference is a former boss who’s not super supportive? Or someone who’s just lukewarm about you? Lucas: Then don’t use them. Seriously. You have a choice. Pick the people who will advocate for you most enthusiastically — even if they’re not your most recent manager. A glowing reference from a boss you had three jobs ago is worth more than a tepid one from your last company. Recruiters can hear hesitation in a voice. Luna: So you’re saying quality over recency. That’s a big shift from the conventional wisdom of ‘always list your most recent supervisor’. Lucas: It is. And if you’re a job hopper, your most recent boss might be the one who’s most annoyed you’re leaving. So you skip them. Use a peer, a mentor, a client — anyone who can speak to your impact without the emotional baggage. I’ve even seen people use a senior leader from a previous company who oversaw their division but wasn’t their direct manager. That can be incredibly powerful. Luna: There is one thing I’ve always been curious about — what about companies that have a policy of only confirming dates and titles? How do you handle that? Lucas: That’s a real hurdle, especially at big corporations. Some HR departments will literally say, ‘We only verify employment dates and job title.’ They won’t answer performance questions at all. In that case, you can’t prep that reference the same way. Instead, you rely on personal references — former managers who’ve left the company and can speak freely. Or you find a colleague who’s still there but will talk off the record. Recruiters know how to work around those restrictions. Luna: So you basically need a Plan B. Have a backup reference who can give the narrative that the official HR line can’t. Lucas: Exactly. And you also need to be upfront with the recruiter. If you know your last company only confirms dates, you can say, ‘My former manager would love to speak with you, but she’s no longer at the company. Here’s her personal email.’ That way the recruiter knows what to expect and doesn’t think you’re hiding something. Luna: That’s a good tip. I think a lot of job hoppers worry that gaps or short tenures will be seen as a pattern, and they don’t realise they can actively shape how that pattern is perceived. Lucas: And that brings me to one more tactic — you can actually ask your reference to proactively address the tenure question before the recruiter even brings it up. You say, ‘If they ask about my career history, I’d love if you could lead with the fact that I’ve consistently been promoted or took on expanding roles.’ That sets a positive frame. Luna: It’s almost like you’re writing a mini-script for them. But I can see how that would make a huge difference. A friend of mine lost out on a role last year because a reference accidentally said she was ‘too ambitious’ — which the hiring manager interpreted as ‘she’ll leave in six months.’ Lucas: And that’s the danger — an offhand comment that gets misinterpreted. That’s why you want to over-prepare. Now, I’ll also say — and this is a subtle point — you should also ask your reference what they plan to say. Don’t just send them your script and assume they’ll follow it. Ask them, ‘What would you say if they asked about my strengths?’ Then listen. If they say something different from what you expected, you have a chance to course-correct. Luna: That’s a really good point. It’s a two-way conversation. You’re not just broadcasting your talking points; you’re making sure they actually align with what the reference genuinely believes. Lucas: Exactly. And if they hesitate or say something vague like ‘Oh, you’re a great worker,’ that’s a red flag. You want someone who can rattle off a specific example without thinking. ‘She turned around our customer satisfaction scores by 20 points in six months’ — that’s the kind of reference that wins offers. Luna: You know, this whole conversation makes me think about how much of the job search process is about managing perceptions. And references are one of the last places where you still have some control. Lucas: Absolutely. And honestly, this is the kind of advice that can really level the playing field for someone who’s had a non-traditional career path. If we’ve helped you think through a reference strategy or any other part of your job search, and you’d like to support the show so we can keep it ad-free, you can buy us a coffee at buy me a coffee dot com slash fexingo. No pressure — just a way for listeners who find value here to chip in. Luna: Yeah, it really helps us keep making episodes like this. And we genuinely appreciate every single contribution. Lucas: So back to the prep sheet — let me give listeners a concrete format. At the top, put the job title and company you’re applying to. Then list three key achievements from your time working with that reference. Then include a line about why you left that role — framed positively. And finally, a sentence about what you’re looking for next. That’s it. One page. Luna: And you email that to them, and then follow up with a call? Lucas: Right. The call is crucial because you want to hear their tone. If they sound enthusiastic, great. If they sound hesitant, you might want to rethink using them. Also, on the call, you can ask them directly: ‘Is there anything about my performance or style that you think I should address in interviews?’ That gives them a chance to raise anything you might not want to come up unexpectedly. Luna: That’s almost like a pre-mortem for the reference call. You want to uncover any potential landmines before the recruiter does. Lucas: Exactly. And one more thing — timing. Don’t send your reference prep sheet the day before the recruiter calls. Give them at least a week. And check in with them periodically during your job search. Let them know when you’re actively interviewing so they’re not caught off guard. Luna: I imagine it’s also good to thank them after they’ve taken the call. A handwritten note or a small gift card goes a long way. Lucas: Absolutely. It’s a relationship. You want to maintain it for the long term. Because down the road, you might need them again. And if you’ve treated them well, they’ll be even more eager to help. Luna: So let’s say you’re a job hopper with five jobs in eight years. How do you choose which references to use? Lucas: I’d pick the two most recent managers who you had the best relationships with, and then one from earlier in your career who can speak to your foundational skills. Avoid using a reference from a job where you underperformed or left on bad terms. And if all your recent stints are short, lean on the ones where you had the biggest impact. Remember, recruiters are looking for a pattern of success, not a pattern of tenure. Luna: That’s a really helpful framework. I think a lot of people get stuck thinking they have to use the most recent boss, but you’re saying it’s better to use the best boss. Lucas: Exactly. And if you’re worried about a gap in references — say you haven’t worked with a manager in three years — you can use a client or a vendor you collaborated with. As long as they can speak to your work ethic and results, it’s valid. Luna: One last question — what about reference letters? Do those still matter? Lucas: Rarely. Most recruiters want to actually talk to someone. A letter can be a nice supplement, but it’s not a substitute for a live conversation. And honestly, a letter could be written by anyone. The phone call has credibility because the recruiter can hear the sincerity — or lack thereof. Luna: So the key takeaway is: treat your references like a key part of your interview strategy, prepare them thoroughly, and don’t be afraid to be selective about who you use. Lucas: Exactly. And if you do that, your job hopping history becomes a strength — because your references will tell a story of intentional growth, not instability.