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Aging Loser Donald Trump Is Old And Losing · Politix

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But if they want the New York Times and the congressional team
0:03
they have on the
0:03
SPEAKER_02: Hill there to go all in on a Trump scandal,
0:07
SPEAKER_02: then try to get a cabinet member impeached.
0:10
SPEAKER_02: Like, that will work.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: That will drive headlines.
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SPEAKER_02: Why are these critiques missing?
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Democrats have spent recent weeks fighting each other over the
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stewardship of the
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SPEAKER_02: DNC,
0:26
SPEAKER_02: the candidacy of Graham Plattner.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: And the governing decisions of Jared Polis.
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SPEAKER_02: Is that why they're missing an action against Donald Trump?
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Is this the healthy kind of infighting or should everyone be in
1:00
general election mode already?
1:02
SPEAKER_02: We'll tackle these and other questions in this week's episode.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to listen to the whole conversation,
1:06
SPEAKER_02: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to the Politics Podcast.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm Brian Boitler.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm Matthew Iglesias.
1:18
So I have on our list of things to talk about Donald Trump's
1:22
old decaying ass is
1:23
SPEAKER_02: headed back to the hospital.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: And then also that we wanted to close the loop on the Jared Polis,
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SPEAKER_02: Tina Peters implosion fiasco,
1:33
SPEAKER_02: whatever it was.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: I have some thoughts about how these,
1:36
SPEAKER_02: I guess these separate genres of stories are connected,
1:39
SPEAKER_02: but we can take them in either order you like.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I just wanted to close the loop on Polis.
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SPEAKER_01: He got formally censored by the Democratic Party of Colorado,
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SPEAKER_01: so he is no longer welcome to speak at party events.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't...
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SPEAKER_01: I was surprised to learn that this is even, like, a thing that can occur.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, he's out for whatever out is.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: But again, I mean, I guess to me, like, I don't...
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I don't think that it's a surprise to Jared Polis that the
2:16
reaction to this from
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SPEAKER_01: his fellow partisans was negative because he did float it earlier.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: You know,
2:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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sometimes you float stuff and you hope that like the hardcore
2:27
civil liberalists
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SPEAKER_01: Libertarians are going to be like,
2:30
SPEAKER_01: oh,
2:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
2:30
like Polis is right about this or that like the abundance guys
2:35
who like his housing
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SPEAKER_01: takes are going to be like,
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SPEAKER_01: you got to got to stick with Jared here.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: And like nobody did that when he floated it previously.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: And then he went and did it anyway.
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SPEAKER_01: So now he's, you know, excommunicado.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: But
2:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: It has no impact.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: That's like, I don't know.
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Do you think that the pushback he faced two months ago when he
3:06
was really,
3:07
SPEAKER_02: what it looked like he was going to do it in the first instance,
3:10
SPEAKER_02: was of a nature that made him think,
3:13
SPEAKER_02: I really shouldn't do this or there's going to be hell to pay?
3:15
SPEAKER_02: Or was it more of the like, I should
3:18
Let them blow off some steam and then find a Friday and try to
3:21
bury it and I hope
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SPEAKER_02: it doesn't make a ton of waves.
3:24
Because I think it really was pretty clear that he was going to
3:30
get no support.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure it was clear that the party,
3:34
like the individual members of the Colorado Democratic Party
3:37
would behave in a
3:38
manner that suggested he had betrayed them because he did kind
3:42
of like leave them
3:43
SPEAKER_02: on the hook for this
3:45
SPEAKER_01: What do we do about this now?
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got to, you know...
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SPEAKER_01: Primary journalism would be helpful here.
3:55
But the TikTok that I read in the Times on this suggested that
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Polis had really
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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had tried to like canvas some people and like hope that they
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would agree with him
4:08
and then learned that they did not agree with him and that that
4:12
caused him to delay
4:14
SPEAKER_01: his actions.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: But like he decided to do it anyway and
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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You know,
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it would be fascinating to know,
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like,
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has he been surprised by the blowback here?
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SPEAKER_01: Or like,
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SPEAKER_01: did he get on the phone with any of the members of the,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_01: the U.S.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: House delegation and like ask them what was going to happen?
4:34
SPEAKER_01: But I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: I think that I think that to an extent what you're looking at is the,
4:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: deleterious
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There's not a lot of value from a certain perspective in being
4:50
a member of the
4:51
SPEAKER_01: Democratic Party in good standing.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's an incredible amount of value in that for many people.
4:59
There's a lot of backbench House members in various states who
5:03
would like to run
5:04
for governor or senator someday or maybe get a cabinet job or
5:07
something like that.
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SPEAKER_01: And for them, it matters an incredible amount.
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SPEAKER_01: But it's like, you know, not just if you're polis, right?
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SPEAKER_01: But like other more conventionally progressive governors,
5:19
SPEAKER_01: like you never hear anybody talk about Tina Kolek,
5:23
SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: Kotech in Oregon.
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SPEAKER_01: Like she's not on anybody's like shortlist to run for president.
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SPEAKER_01: There isn't a Senate seat opening up in Oregon.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: Nobody's like, what's her next gig going to be, you know?
5:39
SPEAKER_01: As far as I know,
5:39
she's just like a very orthodox progressive who is going to
5:42
remain in the good
5:44
SPEAKER_01: graces of National Democrats.
5:46
But like if she developed some eccentric opinion that she
5:49
wanted to sound off on,
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SPEAKER_01: it's like what's in it for her?
5:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like not that much on a certain level.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Most politicians I think are like
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SPEAKER_01: super sincere partisans who,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
6:04
really want to get along with other people and are very
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motivated by that,
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SPEAKER_01: even when there isn't,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: an incredibly clear,
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SPEAKER_01: objective reason to do so.
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SPEAKER_01: But I'm,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: trying to think,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: if I was trying to talk Polis out of this,
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SPEAKER_01: right,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: you could talk about the merits,
6:20
SPEAKER_01: but I'd be like,
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SPEAKER_01: Jared,
6:23
SPEAKER_01: don't
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SPEAKER_01: to whatever that's gonna be so bad for you.
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And it's like,
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well,
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he's both gonna be dead to the Democratic Party,
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but also he'll be fine.
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SPEAKER_02: So I,
6:38
SPEAKER_02: two months ago was like,
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SPEAKER_02: hey,
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SPEAKER_02: Colorado State Democrats,
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SPEAKER_02: you should tell Polis that you'll kick him out of office.
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SPEAKER_02: Because that's actually, that's a tangible thing.
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SPEAKER_02: It's humiliating to be impeached and removed.
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SPEAKER_02: And so it's real leverage, it's a real threat.
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SPEAKER_02: And
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SPEAKER_02: The legislators did write him a letter.
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SPEAKER_02: It did not contain any threats, but it was unanimous.
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SPEAKER_02: It was every member of the legislature from the Democratic Party.
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SPEAKER_02: So it did send a strong message of a kind.
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SPEAKER_02: And so when he went and did it, I always run a little hot.
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And so I was like,
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okay,
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well,
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they should just begin the impeachment process.
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SPEAKER_02: The smart refinement to this proposal...
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SPEAKER_02: came from one of the candidates for attorney general running in Colorado,
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SPEAKER_02: who I did a live conversation with on Friday.
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SPEAKER_02: His name's David Seligman.
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And he said that the legislature should try to come back for a
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session where they
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SPEAKER_02: do an investigation.
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SPEAKER_02: Michael Schoen
8:02
but they should try and then if they manage to get the
8:04
legislature back in session
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SPEAKER_02: they should try to ascertain to what extent Trump's threats or any other
8:11
inducements affected his decision to do it and if they turn
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over every leaf and
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interview everyone and it turns out this was just what was in
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Jared's pure heart
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then maybe what they do is censure him like in the official
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legislative sense as
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opposed to like the state party sense but if they find that
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yeah like the fact that
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SPEAKER_02: he thought that
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like mooting these threats from Trump or whatever other
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improper motives he might
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SPEAKER_02: have had was at the heart of it,
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then they really just have to impeach him because that is a
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betrayal of the oath,
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SPEAKER_02: right?
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SPEAKER_02: And that we in punditry,
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but also people in Congress and people in state legislatures
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have lost sight of the
8:53
SPEAKER_02: idea that
8:55
SPEAKER_02: These accountability measures are expected of them.
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They're like prescribed in the Constitution for people who are
9:04
elected to office to
9:05
SPEAKER_02: uphold,
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SPEAKER_02: right?
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And we treat them as kind of like,
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well,
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it's kind of up to them what's in their best judgment.
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SPEAKER_02: But like if a Constitution says an executive shall be removed forever,
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh, abuse of power and then the executive abuse is powered.
9:21
Like,
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you really are just supposed to move in the direction of
9:24
getting rid of him.
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SPEAKER_02: And we,
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SPEAKER_02: I think,
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SPEAKER_02: collectively as a,
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SPEAKER_02: as a polity have decided,
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SPEAKER_02: well,
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SPEAKER_02: it usually doesn't work out that way.
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SPEAKER_02: So what's the point of trying?
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SPEAKER_02: And I think in this case, I'm still pretty sold on trying.
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SPEAKER_02: Like,
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It's not going to eat at me every day for the,
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you know,
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there's bigger issues,
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you know.
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SPEAKER_02: But it is one place where like a thing could happen that could say,
9:52
like we the Democratic Party take a very firm line on the
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insurrection and we don't
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SPEAKER_02: tolerate Democrats who are willing to help Trump rewrite history here.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: If they, if
10:05
SPEAKER_02: If they try, great.
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SPEAKER_02: If they don't, I don't know.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: like,
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SPEAKER_02: it's just gonna,
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SPEAKER_02: it's gonna,
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SPEAKER_02: like,
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SPEAKER_02: be this unsatisfying,
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SPEAKER_02: unresolved thing,
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SPEAKER_02: and I guess we'll just have to move on from it like everything else.
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Can I raise another Colorado issue that I think actually should
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have made it
10:20
clearer in advance that Paulus wasn't gonna give a shit when
10:26
anybody thinks about
10:26
SPEAKER_01: this,
10:27
SPEAKER_01: which is that Colorado's house map has,
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SPEAKER_01: could be redrawn to gain three safe seats for Democrats pretty easily,
10:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: just based on where it is and how the state has moved and blah,
10:48
SPEAKER_01: blah,
10:48
SPEAKER_01: blah,
10:48
SPEAKER_01: blah,
10:48
SPEAKER_01: blah,
10:48
SPEAKER_01: blah.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: So even though Colorado is a,
10:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:52
SPEAKER_01: like not that big of a state in terms of population,
10:55
the redistricting gains that could potentially be obtained from
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Colorado for
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Democrats are...
11:03
SPEAKER_01: bigger than Illinois and equal in size to New York.
11:08
So it's actually like one of the most significant redistricting
11:11
opportunities.
11:12
It is too late to do this in advance of the 2026 midterms
11:17
because of the vagaries
11:19
SPEAKER_01: of the Colorado Constitution,
11:20
SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
11:20
SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
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SPEAKER_01: But they have a ballot initiative.
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SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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Democrats will live despite bad maps in 26,
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but they need to make the maps better by 28.
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SPEAKER_01: Colorado is one of the biggest opportunities to do that,
11:55
SPEAKER_01: more significant than Maryland,
11:56
SPEAKER_01: more significant than Illinois.
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The sticky wicket here is that for an initiative to pass in
12:04
Colorado,
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you need 55%.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's hard.
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You know,
12:11
it's much harder than 50 because Colorado is a blue state,
12:14
but it's not that blue.
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SPEAKER_01: Jared Polis has not endorsed these ballot initiatives.
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SPEAKER_01: Every other Democratic governor who I know of in a blue state is,
12:24
SPEAKER_01: like,
12:24
SPEAKER_01: working toward redistricting in one way or another.
12:27
There's different things playing out in different states,
12:30
but,
12:30
like,
12:30
they are all for...
12:34
SPEAKER_01: some measure of redistricting retaliation.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, Polis is not, you know, and that's just like basic partisan stuff.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: And he has flown the coop,
12:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:47
SPEAKER_01: like,
12:47
SPEAKER_01: I,
12:49
SPEAKER_01: I,
12:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
12:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
12:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why or what,
12:52
SPEAKER_01: but like,
12:52
this is clearly a guy who is not interested in like what the
12:57
democratic party
12:58
SPEAKER_01: thinks or needs or wants.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Um,
13:01
SPEAKER_01: from anyone.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know what it reminds me of?
13:04
SPEAKER_02: Very helpful.
13:06
It reminds me of like when like Jim VandeHei writes a piece
13:12
about how the country
13:13
SPEAKER_02: needs a third party that's all about bringing people together and they,
13:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:19
SPEAKER_02: it's always somebody like him and it's always the same
13:22
SPEAKER_02: Stupid ideas.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: And they're often ideas that Democrats already broadly embrace.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: But then there's this element of it,
13:28
SPEAKER_02: which is like,
13:29
SPEAKER_02: and you should be willing to eat some shit,
13:30
SPEAKER_02: right?
13:30
Like reach out to the,
13:32
across the aisle,
13:33
like show goodwill,
13:34
this,
13:34
that,
13:34
the other.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Like Jared Polis between the,
13:37
SPEAKER_02: his obstreperousness on redistricting and the,
13:39
SPEAKER_02: and the like the olive branch on Tina Peters is,
13:42
SPEAKER_02: is behaving like he reads those
13:46
Like that perennial genre of centrist hot take and is like
13:50
trying to implement it
13:51
SPEAKER_02: in the space of a governorship.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: And like everyone is super unhappy about it.
13:56
May I mean maybe he is I mean I I just like I I really don't
13:59
know you know um I
14:01
hadn't realized this redistricting angle like this thing about
14:04
um ballot initiative
14:07
and where it's going but you know it it I don't know it just it
14:11
makes me wonder um
14:13
SPEAKER_01: what Jared Polis thinks about anything um in politics um
14:19
SPEAKER_01: Really these days,
14:20
SPEAKER_01: because,
14:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:22
SPEAKER_01: everyone is operating like,
14:25
SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't say everyone,
14:26
SPEAKER_01: but like,
14:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:28
practical politicians tend to be operating like a little bit
14:31
gingerly around this
14:32
SPEAKER_01: redistricting stuff,
14:33
SPEAKER_01: because it's just,
14:34
SPEAKER_01: it's not like
14:34
SPEAKER_01: And Polis, as far as I can tell, is like,
15:01
SPEAKER_01: living in some other reality, right?
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Like having some other conversation about something.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: And,
15:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:08
SPEAKER_01: like people I talk to who are working on redistricting issues are quite
15:12
SPEAKER_01: pessimistic,
15:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:14
because like to get 55% in a ballot initiative when like
15:19
opponents can say like,
15:21
SPEAKER_01: even Jared Polis doesn't support this,
15:24
SPEAKER_01: like that's bad.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, like they're probably not going to win that one.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: And it means that
15:30
SPEAKER_01: You know,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: if all goes well for Democrats in redistricting,
15:34
SPEAKER_01: they could be at a modest disadvantage heading into 28.
15:37
But if it doesn't go well,
15:38
they could be facing like a quite large disadvantage.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: And Colorado is one of the biggest, you know, pieces of the puzzle there.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: One of the biggest difference makers.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
15:50
SPEAKER_02: Let me, I mean, let me, let me run this theory by you then.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: Like, doesn't that militate for
16:00
Democrats in Colorado to take the impeachment option more
16:03
seriously insofar as what
16:05
they would benefit from is the establishment of a record that
16:09
Polis was on Trump's
16:10
SPEAKER_02: side in these matters,
16:12
SPEAKER_02: right?
16:13
SPEAKER_02: Like that's a tendentious read of the situation, obviously.
16:16
But like when Republicans say you should vote against it
16:19
because even Jared Polis
16:21
SPEAKER_02: thinks it's a bad idea,
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Democrats are on stronger footing saying we kicked Jared Polis out of the
16:26
governorship because he helped an insurrectionist who tried to
16:29
help Trump steal an
16:30
SPEAKER_02: election.
16:31
So of course he's on the side of the Republicans as they try to
16:35
steal seats,
16:35
right?
16:36
SPEAKER_02: Like it makes that cohere much better than where we are,
16:41
SPEAKER_02: which is sort of like we strongly disapprove,
16:44
SPEAKER_02: like the second strongest,
16:45
SPEAKER_02: most amount of disapproval there is,
16:47
SPEAKER_02: right?
16:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I don't know.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: I get,
16:49
SPEAKER_01: cause I mean,
16:50
I would have to defer to people who are like more on the ground
16:54
in Colorado on
16:55
SPEAKER_01: this.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: Polis has not endorsed a redistricting ballot initiative,
17:01
SPEAKER_01: but he's also not out campaigning against it.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: You know,
17:04
like I could see the argument that like blowing this up into
17:08
like a bigger thing
17:09
SPEAKER_01: would make things worse.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what Jared Polis's approval rating in Colorado is.
17:13
Like I just don't have like a really strong handle on what the
17:18
situation is or what
17:19
SPEAKER_01: the best way to thread the needle is on this.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Just to say that like there is a bigger problem
17:25
SPEAKER_01: picture here in which I think Polis is kind of defecting,
17:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:30
SPEAKER_01: and that,
17:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:31
SPEAKER_01: he floated a couple a year ago.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: He was sort of like floating a like Maha synthesis idea.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was really weird.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: Now, I mean, you always get some version of this, right?
17:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, after...
17:46
SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of stuff from the antitrust people about how,
17:49
SPEAKER_01: like,
17:49
SPEAKER_01: Trump was actually going to be really good on their issues.
17:52
And then it turned out that actually he's interested in
17:55
extracting bribes from
17:56
SPEAKER_01: people in exchange for merger approvals.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: But, you know...
18:03
SPEAKER_01: Polis' interest in Baha seemed less like wishful thinking,
18:09
SPEAKER_01: the way the antitrust people were,
18:11
SPEAKER_01: or even like delusional thinking,
18:13
SPEAKER_01: and more like he just actually agrees.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean- Like, was how I took it, you know?
18:20
SPEAKER_02: Like, he wasn't- He's like a kooky guy, maybe?
18:23
SPEAKER_02: But,
18:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
18:24
SPEAKER_02: this is why the,
18:24
SPEAKER_02: like,
18:25
SPEAKER_02: an inquiry makes sense to me now,
18:27
SPEAKER_02: and like,
18:27
SPEAKER_02: I can dial back a little bit from like,
18:29
SPEAKER_02: just rush straight to him.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: Because like,
18:31
SPEAKER_02: Maybe what emerges is that like over the course of the last couple years,
18:35
he's like drifted off into woo-woo territory and he's just a
18:40
different kind of
18:41
SPEAKER_02: person.
18:42
And now he has these silly ideas about unilateral disarmament
18:47
on both the Tina
18:48
SPEAKER_02: Peters question and the redistricting question.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: And it's just a matter of
18:53
SPEAKER_02: The fact that his judgment has decayed,
18:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:56
SPEAKER_02: versus an induced,
18:58
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:59
SPEAKER_02: if they find that this was all about getting funding back that Trump was
19:03
SPEAKER_02: threatening or like that,
19:05
SPEAKER_02: you know,
19:05
SPEAKER_02: Peter Thiel promised him a job or some shit,
19:07
like then you're into like straight up quid pro quo corruption
19:12
and it is proper
19:14
SPEAKER_02: then that he like be removed and that that will brand him.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: Like I imagine at that point his approval rating would dip into the
19:22
20s or teens because like ultimately who's going to say like
19:27
like go to bat for a
19:27
guy like that right like maybe yeah I mean very few Democrats
19:32
and I think also very
19:33
few Republicans except the ones that are like trying to you
19:36
know troll essentially
19:38
like on behalf of Donald Trump to be like oh you helped our boy
19:41
and now we'll like
19:42
SPEAKER_02: claim to like you or whatever
19:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, who knows?
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe he becomes the next great savior of Colorado republicanism.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's no telling.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's pivot to – what are we talking about?
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Donald Trump's rigorous medical calendar?
19:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: I said in the free subscriber intro that it was his third –
20:06
SPEAKER_02: Third checkup of the year,
20:08
SPEAKER_02: which is what I thought I remembered from a headline,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: but now I'm having a crisis of confidence in my memory.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: Did I get that right?
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so they've scheduled this perfectly.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: It is his third medical checkup in 13 months.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: Ah, okay, okay, okay.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: So I didn't fake news, I'm sorry.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: So it's not technically three checkups in one year.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: It's...
20:34
SPEAKER_01: Just, you know.
20:36
SPEAKER_02: He's on an every six months cycle.
20:40
It's been seven months since his last visit to Walter Reed
20:44
Medical Center.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: And,
20:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:48
we got a good NPR's coverage has just sort of become more
20:52
partisan since they lost
20:54
SPEAKER_01: all federal funding.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: It was a good article.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: Is that true?
20:57
SPEAKER_02: Have you been tracking that?
20:58
Because I remember thinking after they got defunded,
21:01
I would check in and I
21:02
SPEAKER_02: Michael Schoen
21:17
Trump who turns 80 years old in June is the oldest person to
21:20
take the oath of office.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: His age,
21:21
swollen ankles and bruised hands have sparked repeated
21:24
questions about the
21:25
SPEAKER_01: president's health and fitness.
21:36
That is,
21:37
I think,
21:37
by far,
21:38
and again,
21:38
like,
21:39
this is a news article,
21:40
right?
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, not an opinion column or the Brian Boitler podcast.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: That is of, like, mainstream news articles.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: That is by far the most,
21:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:53
SPEAKER_01: last year of Biden,
21:55
SPEAKER_01: just,
21:56
SPEAKER_01: like,
21:56
SPEAKER_01: straightforward,
21:57
SPEAKER_01: like,
21:57
SPEAKER_01: people are saying this guy has weird secret health problems.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: But isn't that as it should be?
22:01
SPEAKER_01: A story that I've read anywhere.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think it is.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it's, you know, I mean, it is what it is.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Notably, even this article barely mentions, like, in the
22:16
Ninth paragraph or so,
22:18
it talks about how Republicans hit Biden on age stuff.
22:22
But like what I thought was particularly notable about this
22:25
article is that unlike
22:26
SPEAKER_01: most of the commentary I've seen from liberals,
22:29
that the article mostly exists as if the author doesn't know
22:33
that Joe Biden was
22:34
SPEAKER_01: president,
22:35
SPEAKER_01: right?
22:35
And is like innocent of the discourse and is not making like a
22:39
hypocrisy point about this.
22:41
it is just an article about how the president has some strange
22:45
bruising and maybe
22:46
the bruising is due to too much aspirin and how he seems to be
22:49
nodding off in
22:50
certain meetings and how the White House says these are routine
22:54
checkups but it's
22:55
not normal for somebody to get checkups this often you know and
22:58
it's like it's like
22:59
not laden with irony and you know why isn't the media it's like
23:07
just doing the
23:08
SPEAKER_01: coverage you know
23:11
SPEAKER_01: Will anybody care?
23:12
SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting question.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: Trump already quite unpopular, but conservatives seem to just love him.
23:20
SPEAKER_02: Lauren Egan at the Bulwark did a story about the obvious fact of Trump's
23:26
deterioration and the question of why it's not as much of a
23:31
news story as Biden's
23:33
SPEAKER_02: age and deterioration was two years ago.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: And I have this mantra that I apply in many circumstances,
23:41
SPEAKER_02: which is like the media should be better,
23:44
SPEAKER_02: but Democrats need to make do with the media as it is.
23:48
And I think that the subtext of the Lauren Egan piece was that
23:54
one of the reasons
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Trump doesn't get the same kind of dubious coverage,
24:01
SPEAKER_02: the like,
24:02
SPEAKER_02: oh,
24:02
SPEAKER_02: shoot,
24:02
SPEAKER_02: like what's going on with this guy thing and what are they hiding?
24:05
Is in large part because Democrats don't work the refs the way
24:11
Republicans do,
24:12
right?
24:13
SPEAKER_02: There are other factors, right?
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Like Trump has more physical energy than Biden did.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: So he does more events and he talks to the press more.
24:19
And so he creates the impression of like his fires burning a
24:23
little hotter or
24:24
SPEAKER_02: whatever,
24:24
SPEAKER_02: but he's clearly falling asleep in meetings.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: He's clearly doing all the things you said.
24:29
And the difference tends to be that Democrats get spun up in
24:33
their own head
24:35
about what would happen if they just treated this like it was a
24:39
scandal and talked
24:41
SPEAKER_02: about his deterioration,
24:43
SPEAKER_02: his sleeping in the Oval Office,
24:45
SPEAKER_02: his blah,
24:45
SPEAKER_02: blah,
24:46
SPEAKER_02: blah.
24:47
All the time is like a first order critique and they don't do
24:50
it in part because they...
24:53
SPEAKER_02: They tend to fall back on hypocrisy arguments, right?
24:55
SPEAKER_02: Like,
24:56
imagine if Joe Biden had fallen asleep in a meeting instead of
24:58
just being like,
24:59
SPEAKER_02: look,
24:59
SPEAKER_02: right?
25:00
And then why they do that is because they anticipate the
25:04
hypocrisy allegation that
25:06
SPEAKER_02: they imagine is coming.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: Well, where were you when Joe Biden was also very old, right?
25:12
And because they don't want to lapse back into that discourse,
25:18
they decide to leave it be.
25:20
And I think that that's like a correct analysis of why this
25:25
specific question
25:27
SPEAKER_02: doesn't mirror,
25:28
SPEAKER_02: right?
25:29
Like the way Trump is covered for his age doesn't mirror the
25:32
way Biden was covered for his age.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: That leaves open the question of whether that's good or bad, right?
25:37
SPEAKER_02: Like one time several months ago,
25:40
SPEAKER_02: we had a discussion on the podcast about like,
25:42
do we really want the main thing the public thinks about Donald
25:46
Trump to be that
25:47
SPEAKER_02: he's old and tired and not engaged?
25:51
SPEAKER_02: Or do we want people to understand the threat more accurately, right?
25:55
And in that light,
25:56
maybe it's fine that the Democrats are taking a pass on this
26:00
line of attack.
26:02
But that then raises the question of other things they could be
26:05
throwing at him.
26:06
SPEAKER_02: If they don't want to go at him for being old and infirm,
26:09
they could go at him for being this belligerent who's going
26:14
around the world losing
26:15
SPEAKER_02: wars and destroying American credibility.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: But they're not really doing that either.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, let me note two things on this.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
26:27
What is that,
26:28
like,
26:30
you know,
26:31
objectively,
26:33
Donald Trump's popularity is,
26:36
in fact,
26:36
very low.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, right now.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Donald Trump is also not, you know, running for re-election in 2028.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: Right,
26:48
SPEAKER_01: which is,
26:48
this is a different situation from attacking Joe Biden when he
26:52
was going up for
26:53
SPEAKER_01: re-election.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: So I-
26:55
SPEAKER_01: I sympathize with the fact that,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:58
a lot of Democrats are- He does say he might run for an
27:02
unconstitutional third
27:04
SPEAKER_02: term.
27:04
But also like Trump announcing that he's going to run for an
27:08
unconstitutional third
27:09
SPEAKER_01: term would obviously be like bad for America,
27:11
SPEAKER_01: but it would be a gift to Democrats.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Probably.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
27:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:16
So,
27:16
I mean,
27:16
I sort of do get why like messaging focus is not so heavily on
27:23
like-
27:24
SPEAKER_01: How do, you know, Trump's disapproval average is 58% right now.
27:31
If you could get all 58% of the people who disapproved Donald
27:34
Trump to vote for
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Democrats,
27:37
SPEAKER_01: you would solve a lot of political problems.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: If you could push the number from 58% to 61%,
27:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm actually not sure how many problems you would solve.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: Because as Elliot Morris was saying,
27:49
SPEAKER_01: it's like the lower Trump's numbers go,
27:51
the more the marginal disapprover is just like an anti-abortion
27:58
gun fanatic.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
28:01
Who's like going to be hard to persuade to vote for Democrats
28:04
no matter what
28:06
SPEAKER_01: specific points about Trump you raised.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: The other thing,
28:08
SPEAKER_01: though,
28:09
SPEAKER_01: is that like what I feel is always like the missing,
28:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:13
like the dark matter in progressives explanations of media
28:19
dynamics is just like
28:21
SPEAKER_01: the authentic
28:23
SPEAKER_01: interest level of progressive Americans.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: You know,
28:28
SPEAKER_01: and if I read things that are getting a lot of coverage,
28:31
SPEAKER_01: right,
28:31
like there is a lot of interest in Graham Plattner's success in
28:38
defeating Janet
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Mills in a primary in a blue state.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: You know,
28:42
there is a lot of interest in Zorhan Mamdani replacing Eric
28:47
Adams as mayor of New
28:49
SPEAKER_01: York City.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: There's a good amount of interest in,
28:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:55
SPEAKER_01: here,
28:55
like the lead story on The Intercept right now is corporate
28:59
interests paid for
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Haley Stevens' trip to Portugal.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: Right?
29:03
SPEAKER_01: So like there's a lot of interest at The Intercept in defeating,
29:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: what they perceive as like AIPAC-backed Democrats in primaries.
29:13
They've got an article about the autopsy and how it doesn't
29:16
talk about Gaza enough.
29:18
They've got a separate article about AIPAC and crypto spending
29:22
in Democratic primaries.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're just like,
29:27
SPEAKER_01: They're really into this as a topic.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: They're even a little bit into, they've got a story about Thomas Massey.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: Thomas Massey loses his seat in a win for Trump, M-Dash and AIPAC.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: This is something that's very animating to them.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: The American Prospect right now has a piece about
29:44
The back and forth on the housing bill and how Elizabeth Warren
29:48
is right and Maxine
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Waters is wrong.
29:51
They've got an article about how Abigail Spanberger is not left
29:54
wing enough.
29:55
They don't like they don't have any articles like about Trump's
30:01
health cover up like it's not.
30:05
It's not something that,
30:06
like,
30:07
is interesting to them and to their readers.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: And then you get a version of this the same,
30:13
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:14
centrist Democrats are very concerned that they are going to
30:17
lose these primaries
30:18
and get bumped off and are very focused on sort of fighting
30:22
back against that
30:23
SPEAKER_01: stuff.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, like, Democrats are very...
30:32
SPEAKER_01: You know,
30:32
they don't have a leader and they don't even have super clearly
30:36
defined factional
30:37
SPEAKER_01: leaders,
30:38
but they have a lot of super clearly defined factional
30:40
followers at this point.
30:42
You know,
30:42
like your Platners and your El Sayeds and proxies for different
30:47
things.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: And like,
30:49
there's just more juice in those kind of stories than in like
30:54
what's up with
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Trump's hands.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: So I don't, I mean, I don't know how...
30:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, any of these outlets are doing traffic wise.
31:01
I'm not certain that the existence of these stories suggests
31:05
that this is where
31:06
their paydirt is so much as they are run and funded by people
31:09
who care about these
31:10
SPEAKER_02: issues and they'll take the hit to optimal traffic,
31:12
SPEAKER_02: right?
31:13
Because I suspect that if they started doing what the National
31:16
Review does when
31:17
SPEAKER_02: there's a Democrat in the White House or whatever and started just...
31:21
SPEAKER_02: flooding the zone with anti-Trump articles,
31:24
SPEAKER_02: that those would do very well because people are really mad.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I don't know.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, or like, look at the New York Times opinion section, right?
31:31
Because that's like a more,
31:33
you know,
31:34
commercially oriented kind of thing.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
31:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got a piece about the Pope and AI.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: You've got a piece about how California should do a billionaire tax.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: You've got a piece about how progressives should be more left-wing on AI.
31:51
You've got a piece about how Democrats should be more left-wing
31:53
on Israel.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: You've got a piece complaining about school accountability.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: You've got some, like, diet and exercise stuff.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: A piece about aging.
32:05
um some something about France that I don't understand I mean
32:08
and I don't know you
32:09
know but it's like the the the New York Times you know opinion
32:13
section like cares
32:14
about ideology and cares about ideas but is like also part of a
32:18
for-profit
32:19
enterprise and I mean maybe I just picked a bad day yeah well
32:24
like they don't they
32:25
SPEAKER_01: just like it's
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Seems like they don't feel readers care about this.
32:29
This is what I was getting at with the idea that there needs to
32:32
be a symbiosis
32:33
SPEAKER_02: between party actors and media actors,
32:36
SPEAKER_02: right?
32:36
SPEAKER_02: Like the media should do better,
32:39
SPEAKER_02: but given that they don't do great,
32:43
the people in the Democratic Party who want to set the agenda
32:46
need to understand
32:47
what it takes to get outlets like the New York Times to care
32:50
about a story.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: And it would be very helpful, I agree, but
32:53
if the progressive independent outlets that have been around
32:58
for forever were today
33:01
more engaged in straight partisan fighting than in internal
33:05
factional fighting.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: But they're not the only game in town, right?
33:09
SPEAKER_02: TPM covers the news the way I think it deserves to be covered.
33:14
And the bulwark is very engaged on these questions and it's
33:18
doing very well.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: There's plenty of...
33:23
content out there kind of aimed at nudging Democrats to take on
33:29
Trump and aimed at
33:30
taking down Trump by highlighting his failures or his
33:36
deterioration or whatever
33:38
SPEAKER_02: else it is.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: I think we all know from experience that what...
33:45
What makes scandals lurid and attractive to newspapers and
33:50
bigger outlets is sort
33:51
SPEAKER_02: of like drip,
33:52
SPEAKER_02: drip,
33:52
SPEAKER_02: drip.
33:52
SPEAKER_02: What are they hiding?
33:53
SPEAKER_02: Kind of like,
33:55
SPEAKER_02: let's get to the bottom of this mystery,
33:56
SPEAKER_02: which is why like when the Epstein files were being,
33:59
SPEAKER_02: when that bill was moving and then the files started coming out,
34:02
we saw the kind of coverage that predictably attaches to
34:08
prominent Democrats when
34:10
SPEAKER_02: they're in power.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: And like,
34:15
SPEAKER_02: That feeling is like, it's like the worst way to coach a baseball team.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: But it's like, you know, you know how that worked out?
34:21
SPEAKER_02: Like, just go do that again.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: Is like,
34:24
SPEAKER_02: I think like a,
34:25
a good way for Democrats in Congress today to sort of tee up
34:30
issues for the media
34:34
SPEAKER_02: companies.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: And maybe they do like they start
34:37
they roll out a strategy to make Trump's age a big thing for
34:40
instance and like they
34:42
can't get the Intercept to care because the Intercept really
34:44
only cares about the
34:46
factional fight with the center and maybe they can't get the
34:50
New York Times opinion
34:51
page to care because the New York Times opinion page cares
34:54
about yoga or whatever
34:56
but they can probably get Maggie Haberman and that crew at the
34:59
politics desk
35:01
engaged on it right and then you can like you know then you
35:05
imagine the sort of
35:06
SPEAKER_02: Snowball effect that has hurt National Democrats so many times.
35:12
And I feel like mostly this is a thesis that came from the fact
35:19
that I wanted to
35:19
SPEAKER_02: connect our two topics of conversation.
35:21
But there is something about the fact that while The Intercept
35:26
is focused on what
35:26
SPEAKER_02: it's focused on,
35:28
Jared Polis is out here helping Donald Trump get an
35:30
insurrectionist out of prison.
35:31
There's a big fight that everyone in Washington is engaged in
35:35
over the DNC
35:37
And like I'm throwing this one in because it broke last night
35:40
and it had me real mad.
35:42
You have Jake Auchincloss like essentially endorsing Susan
35:47
Collins for Senate.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: And it's like,
35:50
SPEAKER_02: okay,
35:50
SPEAKER_02: well,
35:51
SPEAKER_02: if this is what the Democrats are talking about,
35:53
then of course the newspapers aren't doing drumbeat coverage of
35:58
Donald Trump's
35:58
SPEAKER_02: melting skin or whatever else,
36:01
SPEAKER_02: you know,
36:01
SPEAKER_02: like the fact that he fucking lost a war.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: Like that should be the end of his presidency, but it's like not...
36:07
like it's being covered in the terms Trump wants is like is
36:11
this going to be the
36:11
next two weeks when the blah blah blah because there's no
36:15
there's no unified set of
36:17
democratic voices being like can you believe this guy like lost
36:20
a war for America I
36:23
SPEAKER_02: feel like if
36:24
SPEAKER_02: The Democrat had just started a war and immediately lost it.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: It would have been quite bad for the party politically.
36:30
SPEAKER_02: I just don't really see them engaged.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: They're letting the Iran crisis- Yeah, I agree with you.
36:39
I'm trying to get more specificity on this because I do think
36:45
that 90% of Democrats
36:48
SPEAKER_01: are, in fact, focused on anti-Trump messaging, right?
36:51
SPEAKER_01: And 10% of Democrats are focused on factional infighting.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
36:55
And the 10% who are focused on factional infighting are
36:58
receiving something like
36:59
SPEAKER_01: 99% of the attention.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's just like primarily audience...
37:05
driven you know like different people are you know at different
37:09
places right so
37:10
it's like you have the strong left factionalists who all they
37:14
want to talk about is
37:15
tearing down Haley Stevens and you have the strong centrist
37:18
factionalists who all
37:19
they want to do is complain about Graham Plattner and then you
37:22
have the anti-anti
37:23
left factionalists like you who want to complain about Auction
37:27
Clause complaining
37:28
about Plattner and you know he endorsed Susan Collins it's
37:31
different I'm not I'm
37:32
SPEAKER_01: not
37:34
I'm just like I'm describing the situation you know what I mean
37:37
just like this is
37:39
what is more interesting to people right now and then they'll
37:44
say like well if we
37:45
had a real opposition party and I'm like well what would it be
37:48
and I'll point out
37:48
but like here's like 17 things Hakeem Jeffries tweeted and
37:51
they're like oh well
37:52
SPEAKER_01: he's just tweeting but all anybody is
37:54
SPEAKER_01: doing is just tweeting.
37:55
It's just that like when somebody does a take about genocide or
38:01
the Epstein class
38:02
SPEAKER_01: or APAC or Graham Plattner's tattoos,
38:05
SPEAKER_01: a lot of people are interested in that.
38:07
And when they do a take about how Republicans are bad,
38:10
it completely falls flat.
38:11
And like,
38:12
this is why the thing that I most dread in all the universe is
38:16
Gavin Newsom 2028.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Because it's like Democrats need to have
38:24
A fight in 28 in which you get somebody who is clearly and
38:29
distinctly more
38:31
right-wing than the previous set of Democrats running against
38:35
someone who is
38:35
clearly and distinctly more left-wing so that that person can
38:39
win the nomination,
38:40
SPEAKER_01: then almost certainly lose in 28.
38:43
But people will at least agree that that's what happened
38:45
because it's the only
38:47
SPEAKER_01: thing that anyone actually cares about now.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: And to just keep straddling, I think, is untenable.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: I was with you until that catastrophizing at the end there.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm like, I'm also- I'm not catastrophizing though.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: Like I just like- Newsom would not be my first choice either.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: I think rerunning Harris- I'm just saying he's my last choice.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: Okay, rerunning Harris would be my last choice.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: But okay, but what I heard you saying- Yeah.
39:14
In a manner of suggesting that like the,
39:20
you know,
39:20
that all people who consume-
39:24
SPEAKER_02: media are interested in is the infighting.
39:27
I hear that as people who consume news coverage are interested
39:30
in conflict.
39:32
And right now,
39:32
Democrats are engaged in a lot of conflict with each other.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: And so it's getting a lot of attention.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: Now,
39:38
SPEAKER_02: I grant that it is very hard for Democrats to pick sustained fights with
39:45
SPEAKER_02: Republicans right now because they're in the minority.
39:47
SPEAKER_02: So that's why I think it's important whenever there's a
39:51
An appropriations deadline or whatever for Democrats to seize
39:54
it and make use of it.
39:56
But they could also talk with a little bit more confidence in
40:00
their oversight
40:02
agenda for 2027 instead of being afraid of having an oversight
40:06
agenda for 2027
40:08
because they're worried that talking about oversight will
40:10
distract attention from
40:11
SPEAKER_02: their agenda to lower costs,
40:13
SPEAKER_02: which is what Hakeem Jeffries says whenever he has a chance,
40:16
SPEAKER_02: right?
40:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess so.
40:20
If you want people to be interested in a Democrat versus
40:24
Republican fight that is
40:26
SPEAKER_02: advantageous to Democrats,
40:28
SPEAKER_02: you need Democrats to pick fights with Republicans,
40:31
SPEAKER_02: which is something that they are often very scared to do.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: And so the attention flows to wherever the nearest conflict is.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's a conflict that Republicans picked with Democrats.
40:40
And sometimes Republicans pick fights that are so stupid that
40:43
it blows up in their faces.
40:45
But there's also all these examples of Democrats fighting each
40:48
other right now.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: And so I think another answer to the question the Bulwark posed,
40:53
SPEAKER_02: like why doesn't Trump's old ass get covered the way Biden's old ass did,
41:00
is that it's not just that Democrats are unsure how to run a
41:05
campaign about Trump
41:07
SPEAKER_02: being an old fart,
41:08
SPEAKER_02: but because they're just fighting each other and that's enough
41:13
That's enough red meat for the politics teams at all the
41:17
outlets to cover.
41:18
SPEAKER_02: That's going to draw attention because there's fighting happening.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: I just like...
41:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's...
41:28
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: I just like,
41:29
I don't understand your concept of what it would mean for
41:32
Democrats to be picking
41:33
SPEAKER_01: fights with Republicans.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: I just see,
41:35
SPEAKER_01: I see every day the vast majority of Democrats trying to pick fights with
41:40
SPEAKER_01: Republicans,
41:41
SPEAKER_01: and it's just falling flat because there is sincerely no interest in it.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, not like from the press.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: It's like from,
41:49
SPEAKER_01: and like even,
41:50
and then there's a group of people who advertise themselves as
41:55
more interested in
41:55
SPEAKER_01: fighting Republicans than in factionalism.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: But like you guys,
41:59
you then just do like meta fighting with Democrats by saying
42:05
that they're not
42:05
SPEAKER_01: fighting with Republicans in like a correct or adequate way.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you talk about the bulwark, right?
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Like the last,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: set of bulwark content that I recall really making waves was just,
42:18
SPEAKER_01: again,
42:18
SPEAKER_01: it was content about Graham Plattner's tattoos,
42:21
SPEAKER_01: you know?
42:21
SPEAKER_01: And it was Tim Miller versus Sarah Longwell and,
42:26
SPEAKER_01: like,
42:27
SPEAKER_01: having different takes about this because,
42:29
SPEAKER_01: like,
42:30
SPEAKER_01: I just think people are,
42:30
SPEAKER_01: like,
42:31
SPEAKER_01: sincerely much more interested.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, not even close, right?
42:34
There's,
42:35
like,
42:35
the level of interest in Graham Plattner's primary campaign is,
42:39
like,
42:40
50x the level of interest in every single race that pits a
42:44
Democrat against a
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Republican in a red-leaning state.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know what to do about that.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, I wish people cared more about beating Republicans.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: Like,
42:55
I wish there had been one New York Times op-ed about Roy Cooper
42:59
and the lessons we
43:00
SPEAKER_01: could learn from Roy Cooper,
43:01
SPEAKER_01: because he's going to beat a Republican in a red-leaning state.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: But there have been none.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: And people are like,
43:07
SPEAKER_01: Really interested in Mamdani, right?
43:09
SPEAKER_01: Like pro and con.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: They're really interested in Plattner, pro and con.
43:13
There was a little bit of interest when Jasmine Crockett tried
43:16
to like outwoke Tallarico.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: But once that fizzled, like people don't care about that race anymore.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: Nobody cares about Mary Potola.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: It's like you can only do what you can do.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: Let me answer this jacuse on the other side of the paywall.
43:33
SPEAKER_02: Because there's a few things at issue here.
43:35
SPEAKER_02: And I think that we could come to terms on all of them, I think.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: If you want to hear that part of the conversation,
43:41
SPEAKER_02: you can go to politics.fm and upgrade your subscription.