Latest / Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast / Darling, Bish Hour: The Cult of the Real Housewife

Transcript

Darling, Bish Hour: The Cult of the Real Housewife · Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Happy New Year, friends, and welcome to another Darling bisch
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hower with me Melissa Reich.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: And me Amy Phillips. Happy New Year, Happy New Year, Amy.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: How are you? How are you? I'm good.
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: It's great to start the new year off with like
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: a very amazing, like literal reality check into the Real Housewives,
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: with this incredible show documentary that we are about to discuss.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to be here. Yes, Amy, I'm
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: so excited to start out the new.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Year with you.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: The Darling bisch Hower has been a huge success. Many
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: people are very very excited, and I'm just so happy
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to be with you and give the people what they
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: want at the same time.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Two birds, one stone.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: So in man, you're not kidding, And you know this
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: is great because it's like the first show back and
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: I can sit back and let you do your magic.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: No, I mean no, I it's just such a treat.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: And I mean this.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: As we just mentioned, we're going to be covering the
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Cult of Mary Cosby documentary that was on or is
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: on HBO Max currently. It is three parts. We we
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: both obviously finish the entire thing. From what I understand,
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Melissa has several pages of notes is.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: To be exact, eight pages to be exact.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Kit's yes, Amy can I don't know how much I have?
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: How many have.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: I have?
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Two and a half. No, that's a listen. Two and
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: a half is a normal amount of notes.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: What annoys me about myself is like I can't watch
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the stuff without literally doing like a paper. I do
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: outlines and I organize it, and it actually annoys me
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: about myself.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: But why, well, it's so much work.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm like melissa'ney. Yeah, exactly, listen, but you
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: keep all your notes, right, I do?
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Yes? Okay, good, good, yes, Because one day, who knows,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: maybe there will be a book. I don't know. I
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: think there should be noted.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: As Amy said, today, we are going to cover the
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Cult of the Real Housewife. It is a three part
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: docu series. It aired on TLC. I was able to
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: hot tip for people because I know that streaming services
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: there's so many, and you know, we can't pay for
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: all of them. If you have I was able to
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: watch this on my Dish network on demand because TLC
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: originally aired it. All right, if you use Dish or
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: you use TLC, you can do that.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: We are going to mention it all so you don't
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: even have to watch it because we've got it covered.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: We're gonna tell you everything. Yeah right.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: I watched it on the local Santa Clarita drive up
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: movie theater. No, I'm kidding, that'd be amazing. Also, I
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: really I think I should start that up here. I
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: don't even know, like I don't even the title of
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: this and when I merge it with other titles of
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: other things that we've seen that are documentaries involving real housewives,
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: I can't keep up these titles. I just think it's
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: called the Cult of Mary Cosby, which is how I
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: introduced it. Apparently it's called something Else, which you did,
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: so you know. I'm just along for the ride. It's
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: the content, not the titles for me. But before we
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: get started, I just want to I want to ask
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: you something, Melissa, because God was speaking to me, and
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: I believe God is telling me to like that you
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: are supposed to like give me a range Rover or
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: is God telling you to give me a range Rover?
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: Because I feel like I'm supposed to be getting a
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: Range Rover and like a Judith Lieber purse.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: It's so weird. Are you getting that. Are you getting that?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Is that the signals must be crossed? Because I'm not
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: getting that, Aimy, I'm not called a couple other people. Yeah,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: you might want.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: To just tap into a direct line to God, like
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Mary Cosby apparently, because she might have the answer for
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: you on that one.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm my.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: God, wow, I got literally wow, Okay, Melissa, let's crack
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: open this.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: This can of really sad and messed up. Warn't ters.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: That is really the Faith Temple Pentecostal Church in Sali.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, Amy, when I first started this podcast,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: season one, episode three or five, I can't remember exactly
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: what it was. I covered a lot of what was
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: covered in this documentary. Okay, so this docuseries about Mary Cosby.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Adam Oh, gosh, Hetzler, what is his name from?
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Up and On?
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Adam Up and Adam Yes, Up up, pupping away.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: He's in that animated film Up. Yeah. Oh my god.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually thought I was like, this entire docu
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: series is like him. I'm like, okay, well, you know,
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: that's kind of amazing. But yeah, I remember when he
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: paid the interview with Mary's mom, which was mild at
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: the time.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: And stepdad and so I originally, like my original stance
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: on Mary Cosby was I felt that the church was
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: a cult. I felt that it was being used to manipulate, control, shame,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: like all that whole thing. So I did this episode
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: on Mary Cosby. I covered a lot of what was
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: already covered in this docuseries. But this docuseries, one thing
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: that we got which blew my socks off was actual
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: recorded conversations from unfortunately now deceased Cameron from his own mouth.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: And so for me, here's what I'm going to start
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: this out by saying, I feel like a fool. I
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: feel that I allowed myself to be duped by Mary.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I feel that I'm just I'm going to say it.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say it at the top of the
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: top of the episode. I feel that, you know, as
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: a therapist, sometimes we meet with people who are inherently flawed, right,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: We all have good parts and bad parts, and sometimes
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: as a therapist you want to see the best in people.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: You want to empathize.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: With those really dark parts, because that is our job
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: to do.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: And with Mary, I think I.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Wanted to believe so badly that she had changed that
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: I allowed her to distract me like she's distracted everyone else.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: Like a real like a true magician does with distraction.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, she did slide of hand. And here's why I'm
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: acknowledging this. I don't get fooled often, I really don't.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: But this did fool me.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: But guy, that's that's a tremendous thing to say. But
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: guess what what, I'm no longer fooled. I am, and
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: I feel the same way. I'm with you, and I
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: think a lot of people are. Absolutely I think a
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: lot of people are going to feel the same way.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: Because as we watched this documentary, we saw the arch
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: of when people were very you know, weary of Mary,
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: and then when these rumors and allegations that the housewives
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: brought to the show from the beginning, meaning Whitney and
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: then Lisa and Meredith talking to Cameron and all that
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: whole thing, we it was its surfaced. Everyone is like,
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: oh my gosh, Mary's a cult leader, and we were upset.
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: And then the sediment just rested, and then she went away.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: She didn't come to the reunion, and then the next
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: thing you know, she's being coming back in and coming
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: back in and now here she is. She's a new person.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: On the show and we're all like, oh my gosh,
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: I love Mary.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: She's just a different person. We've all done that.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: It doesn't mean to say that like we're weak minded
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: or that we're easily manipulated, because we're seeing what is
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: put in front of us, and also these things that
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: she's showing us. We can also appreciate her on the
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: show on some compartmentalized level because of the entertainment value.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: But it is now very clear why she did that,
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: because she needs money obviously, and why she's willing to
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: do these types of things now in light of how
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: all this is being exposed. So I agree with you.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: I feel the same way you know. I've thought she
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: was quirky and weird and that's always great for the show.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: And I would love to hear your thoughts on everything.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: Two things I want to mention before you rev up
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: your engine and just get going on your Busch motorcycle. Here,
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize how culpable Mary Cosby was.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: I thought she was more.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Of a victim than I gave it credit for. However,
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: I will put a footnote there and say that is
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: it if in fact there wasn't any And by the way,
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: trigger warning, trigger warning, there wasn't any essay with Robert
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: Junior as she was growing up, because if that was
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: the case, then I would change my mind that she
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: wasn't as culpable, that she was absolutely a victim. And
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: then now this is a matter of her not being
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: able to get out of the cycle. So that's my
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: side note. And then furthermore, Mama is way more culpable
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: than I think anyone is willing to acknowledge, including the Enochs.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: Everyone who was under Mama who is just touts her
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: as this incredible preacher and she wouldn't want this, and
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: she wouldn't want this. Well, guess who brought Robert into
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: everyone's lives, Mama.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: And when she knew that something had happened, which we'll
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: talk about Robert Senior essentially weaseled his way in, manipulated
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: his way in, and he started this kind of I
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: forget what they called it, but it was like a
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: corporal punishment for children essentially, which most cults will have
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: some component of that of young women, yes, of young boys,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: you know, doing the whole. You can't kneel otherwise you'll
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: fall on you know, sharp stick.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: You know, all this crazy stuff.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: When Mama found out about that, she was upset and
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: disappointed and put an end to it, but didn't put
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: an end to him. So I think that what this is,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: and I like the way that you set this up
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: is it's a complex story about generational trauma, religious trauma.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Religion can be.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: So perverted to serve whatever goals the leader has in mind.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: And so I think that religion and spirituality can be
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: a beautiful thing, a life saving thing, an amazing thing.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: But what we see here in this docuseries is how
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: it was such perfect instances to get all of this
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: to be the way that it ended.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Up being right now, unbelievable, almost like you know, a
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: legit template as to how things can go wrong, you know.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just amazing how it all turned and
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: also very interesting to hear the origin story of Mary
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: Cosby's grandmother going from Indianapolis and hitchhiking her way across
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: and taking buses to Salt Lake City, and how that
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: was unhinged, incredibly un him. Some would say otherwise, And
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: you know, great people do very unique and reckless, wild things,
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: and that is absolutely one of them. She clearly built
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: up an entire church in a I would say, in
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: almost an incredibly non black area at all, then created
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: businesses to serve her black community, and it had not
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: done done that before, So she really built something spectacular. However,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: there's a you know, there's another side to that, which
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: is it can be twisted into what it became right.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've always been the type of person to say,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: when somebody wants power, it's so important to ask and
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: examine why, why do you want this power? What do
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: you want to use this power for? Because what happens
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: is people put themselves in these positions of power and
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: they say that they're conduits to God and reality. For
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of these folks, and specifically, it seems like
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: here it's all a farce. In this series, they did
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: interviews with a ton of folks, former members, Mary Cosby's sister,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: her cousins, but the most important there were two people.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: One was co expert doctor Stephen Hassan, who is really
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: huge in this game. I really like him a lot.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: He has written a book, he's very smart, he's very knowledgeable.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: And also Cheyenne Roundtree was the investigated journalist who wrote
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: the Daily Beast article that ended up being released in
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, which coincided with when Mary skipped the reunion.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: You know how I felt this docu series was it
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: was like you ever see The Usual Suspects, You know,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: the whole Kaiser Sosa thing where you watch the movie
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: and these pieces are coming together and then at the
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: end it all comes together and you realize the Kaiser
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: so say of it all. And I really felt like
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: when I finished watching this documentary, I was like that
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: meme of the Lady with the symbols, and it was like,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this has all come together for me
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: in terms of tie line, receipts, proof and things like that.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, And how the Housewives did bring it up.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: You realize that they were trying to expose this at
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: really the request of I think Cameron trying to bring it.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: I know, we'll get there, but I don't really understand
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: how he's he was claiming to have put her on
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: the Real Housewives.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I don't understand that.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Okay, I have an understanding because Okay, you wanted to
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: expose her, which I think is amazing.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Right, So here's the situation with Cameron, because what we
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: saw was it season one or season two where Cameron
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: had a connection to Lisa Barlow and on the docu
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: series The Enoch Family, so the interviews were largely with
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: the Enoch family. So Michael, Ernest Rose, Rosalind, Denise Jefferson,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: who's Mary's sister. Cameron Williams is the gentleman that we're
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: talking about. By the way, it was so fascinating to
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: see how you remember how gung ho, Lisa and Whitney
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: were about exposing Mary, and now all of a sudden,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: everyone including myself, had the brain of a goldfish and
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: just completely were distracted.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: And You're like, oh, yeah, what happened?
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: And how do they continue filming like that? They just
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: have to play the game. It seems like they're playing
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: the long game here, which I now I understand.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Right, So the allegation when Cameron came on camera, and
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I want to be very mindful and respectful
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: of how I speak about him because he unfortunately did
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: die due to surgery complications from a brain tumor. And
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: I just want to say, you know, I believe survivors, victims,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: people who tell their stories. And the one thing I
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: can say as a therapis pissed. Being an empathetic witness
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: to a lot of pain. The one thing that was
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: most convincing to me when I watched this documentary is
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the pain on these people's faces. This wasn't a gotcha moment.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: This wasn't I'm trying to get famous. This wasn't I'm
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: trying to ruin Mary's life.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: This is my story.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: She almost destroyed our lives. Now there is a happy
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: ending with the rest of these folks, which I'm really
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: really happy to hear.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: But you can see.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: The pain, the grief, the loss, the division, the manipulation,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: the power. You can see it all on their faces.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: And so that's who I believe. I believe them.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: I do too.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: So Cameron on this docuseriies there is actual recorded audio
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: that was recorded with Mary's cohusband, Dan Cosby.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And then his I think his wife, right, his wife Kim.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: He was interviewed too, Yeah, I mean she was interviewed
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: as well.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So yes.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: So initially what we heard from Cameron's own mouth and
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Dan confirmed this is that Cameron came to Salt Lake
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: City and he was looking for this church and he
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: had saved three years of tithings because he was a
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: very religious person. He was looking for a new church,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: and so he saved, and he saved, and he saved,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: and here he finds Mamma Cosby's church, right, Mary Cosby.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Why do I think that's really important is because I
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: think that Mary saw that as a he saw him
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: as a cash cow in other words, and so I
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: think that's really significant.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Number one.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Number two, the allegation is that Cameron went to Mary
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Mary's home, Mary grabbed his hand, inserted it into her vagina,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: and then they had sex. But what is the very
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: interesting thing about this is that the call in Cameron's
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: own words, he said, and I quote, we had the
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: affair and all that, but that was me being victimized.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: It had to take therapy for me to get out
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: of that. Now, what's also very important here is he
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: talked about being lonely and isolated when Mary gave him everything. Right.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: There is such a psychological component to coercive control and
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: coercive manipulation that it's so like she almost played by
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: this playbook. But one other thing that was leaked in
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: this old footage is that Cameron said, and I quote,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I really believed Mary was God. I was embarrassed of
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: how much of a fool I was, what.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Do you think of that?
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Well, I just thought, you know, it's it's hard to
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: comprehend that people in this day and age actually start
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: thinking and believe that a person is God.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: That's hard.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: That's a tough pill for me to swallow, because I'm like, really, like,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: are you for real?
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, how where are we at?
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: Like IQ level? You know, you know, And I'm not
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: trying to be talked down. I'm not trying to be rude,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: but it makes me think, like, what are you talking?
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Why would you think this at this point?
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: And if you know.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: Scripture and if you know whatever, and I understand manipulation
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: and control and religious abuse. However, it is very strange
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: to me that he would think that, and that anyone
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: would really think that. But I could see how it
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: would start to unravel in that direction and how he
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: was manipulated right because Mary said.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: They had a lot of old audio of Mary and
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: she said, and I quote, there is one mediator between
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: God and man, and who do you think that is?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: And so so to your question, Amy, it's it's certainly
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: not an issue you know of IQ or anything like that.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: But what the cult expert did explain is that, well,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: this is my interpretation. You know, I'll tell you what
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: he talked about, but my interpretation is that all humans
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: have a need for connectedness, love, and belonging period, whether
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: it's in if you don't get it in your family
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: of origin, or even if you do, you end up
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: searching for that to kind of give life meaning.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Victor Frankel wrote this book, Man Search for Meaning. It's
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: one of the best books I've ever read. Highly recommend it.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: But I think that the fundamental premise of these religious
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: cults are about what doctor Hassan said, power, money, and
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: sex and sex isn't about love sex, It's all about control.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: And the one thing he said that really resonated with
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: me is that situational vulnerability leads people to cults.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: And what is that means? That stuck out to me too.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, moving, loss, break up, your family, not accepting you,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: you know, all of these things. It leads to being
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: vulnerable to these groups who will then use tactics like
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: love bombing, which is super common and Kim Mary Cosby's
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: cousin Dan his wife, Kim talked about, I mean extensively,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: the love bombing that started to happen as soon as
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: they could see that she was taking one foot out
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: the door, right, Because the other thing that I believe
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: to be true about Robert SR. Is that, And I'm
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: gonna be mindful of how I say this, but Mary
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: and Robert have predatory behaviors, and people who have predatory
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: behaviors are better at sussing out people's weaknesses than people
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: are at keeping themselves safe.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: It's pathological.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: And that's why I feel fooled, and I feel foolish
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: because you know, raised by sociopath, I was taught the
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: greatest lessons about sociopathy and manipulation and things like that,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: And I feel I allowed Mary's story with her son
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: and the addiction piece of it to pull out my heartstrings. Yeah,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: but in reality, what I'm talking about here, this isn't
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: something that's going to be changed, if I'm being honest.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: The psychology of what we're talking about with Mary, the
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: psychology of how she grew up and how cold and
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: callous she was, and everyone in this documentary they had
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: all the same things to say about her, right, I mean,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: meme girl callous, She was a bully, she got into trouble,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: she didn't listen, she was wilful, and I think the
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: one most the one greatest piece of evidence that flipped
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: my brain to coming back to the right side of
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: reality with her was that Mary, for so long had
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: claimed that this was her grandmother's wish right to Mary
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Robert Sr. And take over the church. But that is
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: absolutely not the case, and I will tell you why.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: At the time that Mama Cosby passed away suddenly and
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: unexpectedly at the age of sixty five, Mary was disfellowed.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Now what is disfellowed mean?
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Was a shocking That was probably the most shocking part
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: of this entire documentary for me. I agree that when
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: I expected not at all, and that was like the
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: absolute smoking gun.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I feel the same way because it's like, you can't
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: you know, the problem with people who have died is
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: they can't tell their story. They can't tell their tale.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: But this is as close to telling the tale as
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: I think Mamma Cosby could have gotten, because if she
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: really wanted Mary to take over, she would not have
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: disfellowed or what was it called this fellowship, Yeah, diseas,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: which was essentially this fellowship is kind of like you're
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: not necessarily excommunicated. You can attend services, but you're kind
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: of on like a time out because your behaviors aren't
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: matching with your the spiritual goals, right, Like there's there's
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: a lack of alignment, which, to be honest, I'm like, okay,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: you know, I think that sometimes when you go off
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: the path, you need a little bit of a feedback,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: maybe some consequences.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I guess I could understand that. But Mary was acting.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Out so so much so that her own grandmother, who essentially,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: by the way, raised her. Because there's a lot of
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: generational trauma with Mary's mom, Rosalind Cizarez. It tells you
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: so much about what mama where she was really at
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: at the time that she died. She did not want
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Mary to take over. Nobody wanted Mary to Mary Robert Senior.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Nobody wanted that and brought it ended up breaking up
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: the church to this very day.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now they keep referring to the will. I mean
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: they lightly referred to the will. I remember hearing that
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: on The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City that in
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: her will she wanted Robert to marry one of the daughters,
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: and that was like in her will, show us the will,
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: show us, show us where these wishes were it doesn't exist.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: It doesn't exist.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: And the other thing that I want to hold Mama
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: culpable for is bringing Robert into this world. He played
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: her so hard. He played her like a fiddle. He
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: came in, he sidled along, and he rode that until
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: he got into her good graces. Somehow was able to
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: convince her to marry him. And then she I don't
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: know if she said to him, I want you to
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: continue on the legacy, my legacy in this church. I
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: actually don't find that hard to believe. I think she
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: maybe did say that. Maybe she did because he was younger.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: That's very possible, and that's completely asinine. So again I
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: want to put a little bit more responsibility on on her.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: And then moving onward to find out that Robert Sr.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Was in Mary's life at the age of three. She
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: was three years old.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: That and.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Mary and the sister here at Denise Jefferson, their dad
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: left when they were young. And not only did Robert
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: aka Grampy by the way they called him, Grampy came
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: into Mary's life at the age of three. He was
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: the father figure. It's so so concerning, it's so like
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: because here's the thing. It's like, okay, you can, on
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the one hand, you can rationalize and say, okay, well
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: if it wasn't a blood relation.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: And I don't know.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: I've seen things happen in therapy circumstances that maybe on
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: paper look wild, but then you know, you dig into
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: it and there's reasons and things.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: This is not one of those, right.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: This man was a grandfather to Mary, He was a
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: father figure. He was twenty years her senior. To marry
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: someone who came into your life when you're three years
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: old and was a father figure, there's certainly something a
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: little bit Freudian. There's certainly something psychologically concerning about that piece.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, periods said that her sister, when that's when
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: it became clear to me that she's way more responsible
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: and willing in the situation than I gave her credit for.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Because when her sister explained, like her doing this, making
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: this choice, to do these things and to be with him,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: that shows the side of her that nobody that we
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: know it to be, and that that's really screwed up,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: and that she was so shocked that Mary was even
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: willing to make those choices. And you know, to that point,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: what I have learned when you're gathering information, when you're
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: gathering assessment information about someone, or historical information about family contexts,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: the people in that system are the people who lived
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: through it, and those are the people who I hear
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: and I listen to. Right, this was not just one
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: person saying this was odd. This was everybody saying nobody
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: wanted this, this is not appropriate. Mary's mother, Rosalind, there
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: was this final church service after Mama Cosby died and
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Robert was taking over, and it was essentially this walkout
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: service where Rosalind got up on the pulpit and she said,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: no one came to talk to me about this, No
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: one asked me my opinion. This is not right. The
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: devil has crept up in here. I think that she
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: and the Enoch family and all these people who witnessed it,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: who were traumatized by it, their stories are valid. And
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Mary and Robert what people do when they run colts
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: is anyone who who starts to be aware of those
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: the real stuff, you have to you have to scooch
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: them out, You have to get them out, because that
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: then threatens the whole cult.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Right, that's when he made Dan leave and all of them,
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: the way he made Dan leave too. It was like
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: so ridiculous.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: He would just like put his hand on people's head
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: and be like you see that, that was God leaving you.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Now you're out, and it's like right, help him.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so weird. It's all so odd. And then
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: the police were called that day.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: This part I would highly recommend watching because you get
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: to see the video of how Robert Senior, you know,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Rosalind is preaching and she's telling the truth, and he's nervously.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: He's walking back and forth and he's trying to take
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: his hand and move her over, and he's trying. He
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: is trying his damnedest to manipulate and she is just
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: not having it. And I respect that people who it's
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: like I see through this. You're not going to manipulate me.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: I don't care what bag of bullshit you're trying to sell.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I am bind it.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Well, this the will, Like, here's where I have a
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: real issue with how this all went down in terms
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: of like the church and the businesses. So Mama just
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: left it all in Robert Senior's name, like he just
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: had all of it.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Well do you know why? I think that was?
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Because she died suddenly unexpectedly at a pretty young age.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: I mean sixty five, that's young to pass.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: Yes, so you don't think that she had like but
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: she had a will according to them, which is what
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: she said, she wanted Robert to marry one of the daughters. Right,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: So if there was a will, you're saying that she left,
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: which I don't believe that that was in there, by
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: the way, But if there was a will, then she
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: willingly left everything to him.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: That's fucked up.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Well it is, and I also doubt that that is
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: the case. And here's you know why I doubt that
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: there's a will because if there was, I think we
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: would have seen it. When when investigative reporter Cyanne Rountree,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: she did bring some facts and she they did show
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: specifically there were Mary was married to a man named
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Dana who was a member of the church, right and
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: so mild, that was wild, but like Cheyenne, Rountree had
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: receipts of like when when did Mary file for divorce
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: from Dana? And then when did she file for her
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: marriage certificate with Robert? And guess what spoiler alert nineteen
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: days apart. Mary tried to say before that Robert had
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with this, that this is what her
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: grandmother wanted, blah blah blah. In my opinion, they were
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: people who run cults will literally just say whatever suits
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: them and say that that's what God wants because that's
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: what they're leading people to believe. And that's how you
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: keep people under your thumb, you know, to be manipulated
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: and to be controlled. And it's not that these people
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: aren't smart. They realized this was going on. But then
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: it's like, you have to look at this is your
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: whole life. So if this is your world, this is
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: your family, this is what you do every Sunday. And
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: keep in mind there's a huge financial component to this
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: because when you are financially abused and you are forced
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: to put in money, there is psychology that says if
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: you put money into something, you are less likely to
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: abruptly leave whatever that thing is because you are psychologically
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: invested in this thing. But going back to the will
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: is that if there were receipts about that, I think
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: we should have seen them. We would have seen them,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: and maybe she didn't have a will.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Maybe she didn't.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very possible, you know the idea that well,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: the fact that Mary was married. Is so weird to
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: me because when you find out like she was this
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: fellowshipped and she was just the picture that was painted.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: To me, it was like this, she's this gal about town.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: You know, she's being a little rebellious. It's not lining
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: up with the church. And then to find out this
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: whole time, at whatever point she got married, she was married.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: We saw pictures.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: It was like this big wedding, you know, like a
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: large wedding party, was an entire So what exactly was
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: she and Dana doing or what was she doing in
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: this marriage? Was she was there infidelity? What was happening
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: that made her not you know, worthy of being a
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: part of the church that she had to be on
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: some you know, religious probation because if he was such
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: a great member, I meaning Dana, what what was happening?
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: And then they made him leave in order to get
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: the divorce. They basically said, you're getting in the way
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: of God's mission or God's vision of Mary marrying Robert.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: That was so weird.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they pulled what they did with Dan Cosby, which
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: was they held a church meeting where they berated Dana
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: for hours, which you know is quite a spiritual thing
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: to do, berate, humiliate, shame people.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Those are cult tactics.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Those are not spiritual tactics. And they wanted to make
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: it Dana's fault because if it's Dana's fault, then Mary
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: is free to marry Robert Senior to take all the
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: riches that Mama Cosby worked so hard to cultivate.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: And they did the same thing.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: With Dan where he kind of put it, you know,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Robert Senior put his hand on Dana's head and he's like,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: God just left you.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: You're out. I mean it's when you kind of lay
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: it out like this.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: It does sound ridiculous, but for people in this church,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: I mean it's like it also cultivates the fear. Doctor
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Hassan said of am, I next, I better fall in
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: line because if I don't, that's going to be me.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's everything to them, everything to them, right.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: So Mary filed to divorce Dana on September eighth, nineteen
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: ninety eight. A new marriage certificate was issued on September
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: twenty seventh, nineteen ninety said.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: After Mama died.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: There was a seismic shift, and Mary went from struggling
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: with Dana to wanting to live a rich lifestyle. And
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: you hear all these church members talk about these heave
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: meetings or heavings where some people would give mortgage their
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: homes five thousand, one hundred thousand cash out for a
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: one case.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Cameron was one of them with the mortgage.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Kate he right, he remortgaged his house in addition to
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: all of his tithings and heathens and all of that.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: But one thing that the cold expert talked about is
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: that tithings, again, religion can be perverted to be anything
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: that the leader wants it to be.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Tithing are in the Bible.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: They run through many different religions and cultures. But the
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: tithing is meant to support the community to write to participate, right,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: almost like paying taxes. I mean, I guess I would
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: equate it to that, but taxes are BS two.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: But whatever, we won't get into that.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: So the tithing part is like, okay, it's about giving
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: to your community, but it shouldn't be about and it's
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: not meant to be about giving all you have even
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: if you can't eat, even.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: If you have, giving them your credit card number and
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: you know, like having you now be in complete debt
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: so that Mary can fund or Robert and Mary can
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: fund their lavish lifestyles.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Right, which it did just make me so mad because
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: you see these people cry and talk about, you know,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: the meeting that Mary. We heard her and she admitted
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: this on the reunion that she yelled at people for
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: being stingy and not give her birthday cards and she
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: only got fourteen cards. Well, Ernest Enoch, he said that
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: he was there the day that it happened and he
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: had just given Mary a thousand dollars. Could you imagine
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: anyone giving you one thousand dollars a meeting like you
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: stingy mf Like I'd be like, no, I don't need
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: you keep this, like.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: No thank you?
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: And she didn't even think you not even a thank
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: you note, nothing, nothing.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: And in addition to the smoking gun that we kind
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: of already talked about how Mary was disfellowed at the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: time of Mama Cospy's death, the other thing that really
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: really bothered me was the death of Michael Enoch's daughter,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: McHale or Mike how do you Michael Enoch, No, the
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: daughter It was m A I K E. L. Michael
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: mikeel or Mkhil Mikaale, Mikhail mkil mckayl.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: I think it's like the girl version of Michael.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I guess right.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I'm miss All the time, I practice
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: names and then I get on the mic and I
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: get nervous and I just say them wrong seventy five
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: thousand times.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: So I do apologize.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: But what we watched the scene for everyone who may
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: have remembered from season I think it was season two,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: season one or season two of Real Housewives where Mary
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: is in Whitney's kitchen with Whitney's children and she is
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: talking about how last night, one of the members of
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: her church was ejected from the sun roof of a
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: car in an accident and was killed. And she smiled
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: and she said, wear your seatbelt. And when I realized
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: that this beautiful girl who died Michael Enoch's daughter, Mikel.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: She had two young children, she had a very close
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: relationship with Mary. She had been a church member since birth.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Mary had given this girl a doll that she carried
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: around because she loved Mary. And that was the moment
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: that I realized I had been a fool, because that's ugliness,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: that that's not going to be fixed, that that is
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: real lack of empathy.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Bulackness, and you know the amy. I want to get
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: your thoughts on this.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: The thing that I saw when I watched that scene
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: again is Mary seems to get a glint in her
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: eye when bad things happen to people who speak badly
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: against her. She gets a joyful glint like God smites
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: people right so against me, you know, absolutely, and you
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: can't fix that. She gets a real pep in her
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: step when something terrible happens, because they both are like,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: that's what happens when you if you turn against us,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: turn against God, and then bad things happen to you.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: And she said about Cameron, is that he died because
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: he lied on her. That's what Mary said.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Yes, And by the way, what you know when she
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: was this fellow shipped or dis fellowed, then Mama died
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: real quick after that, which is like we all look
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: at that and go, you know, look.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Nami, what what what did he do?
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: What would Robert? Do you know what I mean? Like allegedly,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: like what happened there?
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: You know? What do we and was there an autopsy
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: or did she she died? Like what what was the
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: cause of death? Do we remember natural causes.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Or something supposedly natural causes, but we didn't get details
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: or death certificates about that. That's something that you know,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: I imagine people have looked into. That's something that I
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: would like to look into. I would have liked the
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: family to speak a little more on that. I agree,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: But you know, my my impression was that the family
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: had such a fondness for Mama Cosby that they didn't
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: They loved her, and I think they believed that she
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: was truly trying to do this great work, so they
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: didn't want to sully her reputation, and I think they
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: just wanted to focus on the Mary.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Of it and the Robert of it.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Interesting. I think there was a lot left out that
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: the family and that people didn't say, and that's concerning
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: to me, and I think they probably didn't say everything
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: because for probably legal reasons for maybe the producers or whomever,
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: but also the people. I think that there's a lot
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: more that we don't know about Robert.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: And here's let's go into Robert a little bit, because
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of allegations of sexual harassment, sexually
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: inappropriate behavior between Robert and I don't know all the
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: female congregants of his church, including Mary's cousin's wife.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So what was some kind of like Vegas. Yeah, he
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: wanted her to go to Vegas with him.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: So this is what essentially, this is what Kim said,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: is that she, you know, took this trip with Mary
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: and Robert to California, and Robert and she were talking
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: as they were looking at you know, the ocean and
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: God's creation and all of this, which is a lovely sentiment,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: but Mary got really jealous, saying that, well, you want
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: my life, you want my husband, and Kim is like,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: what's that now? And then all of a sudden, Robert
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: is blowing up Kim's phone. And there's a woman who
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: was featured in this docu series as well. Her name
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: is Charelle from Charrell's World. She's a YouTuber and she
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: was featured.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: She got the stuff, she's got the stuff. She's been
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: in on this for a long time, and not just this,
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: but so many other housewives things.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, she's great, she's wonderful, and she has
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: said members came forward to tell her about Robert coming
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: onto them as well, and talked about how much it
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: took a toll on the victims and the survivors of
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: his edancs. But Kim was the only one in this
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: documentary who we got to see her pain, We got
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: to see her heartbreak.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Has she learned?
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, I'm I'm upon here, I'm being used, I'm
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: being played, I'm being weaponized. They are trying to break
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: apart me and Dan and our children and our family
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: because then she's easier to manipulate.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was just it was so mind blowing.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the isolation tactic was interesting when you found out
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: that that they would only have certain, they would only
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: have Kim over and you know, split them up, and
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: you know, when you look at this as a whole, Obviously,
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: we've all seen tons of cult documentaries, so it was not,
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: as I'm not trying to downplay it by any means. However,
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: it was not as extreme as so many of the
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: other cult documentaries that we've seen. But there were so
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: many of the same tactics that they were using that
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: were just on a smaller scale because they couldn't even
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: make it to the big time of cult, Like they're
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: not even that good. You know, Robert's not even that
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: good of a cult leader that he couldn't even you know,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: he couldn't even get people.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: To go to Vegas with him. What a loser Anyway,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, we don't like Robert, we don't.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: I have a question for you, Okay, do you think
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: that Mary Cosby in the back of her head went
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: on to the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City subconsciously
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: to rescue herself? On some level, just as Cameron was
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: trying is trying to expose Mary for her misdeeds, Mary
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: is trying to save herself and expose Robert for his misdeeds,
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: and on some level, some weird level, that there's something
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: in the back of her head that's like she knows
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: that she needs to get out of this and there's
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: no other way, or am I just kidding myself.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be brutally honest. My blinders are off,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: and I think she is a partes fully and a perpetrator.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: I do think that, Okay.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: I do you think there's any alleged essay when she
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: was younger by Robert Junior? And if there was, would
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: that affect your opinion?
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: It would affect my opinion, because of course I don't
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: care who you are or what you do. Essay is
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: never something I'm going to take lightly or ignore. So
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: sure could that impact it? Yes? Do I believe that
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: that is part of it. That part I just can't
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: speak to. It's not my story, it's not my life.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: I couldn't even make a guest of it. But what
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I can say is that based on how people described
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: her as a teenager in her formative years, as she
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: grew liking she kind of had this type of bad
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: boys with money and wanting to be taken care of
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: and wanting to live a fun, fast lifestyle. I believe
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: that she Mary has a fundamental need for attention, for
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: it's all about me, me, me, me me. I think
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of narcissism alone, of attention seeking, which
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: These members have said.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: She was always trying to steal attention from people, and
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: sometimes the way that kids get attention it's not through
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: good behavior, it's through bad behavior. So could that have
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: been part of a systemic, a greater systemic issue, Sure
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: it could have. But what I do know for certain
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: is that trauma isn't our fault, but it is our
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: responsibility to fix it. And so whatever happened when she
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: was young, she now has some choices to make. Well,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: she had choices to make before, but in my estimation,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: after this docu series continuing with Bravo, I think we
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: all have some choices to make with Mary. Are we
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: going to continue to ignore this? Are we going to
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: continue to support someone who is actively leading a church who,
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: by the way, nobody thinks that there were renovations. No
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: one thinks that nothing was renovated. What happened was when
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: all of this stuff came to light when Miss Rountree
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: did her investigative ernal article. Mary skipped the reunion. She
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: was allowed to take a two year hiatus. She came
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: back and Adam said, in his own words, we didn't
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: see the contract. But guess what Mary won't do now.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Robert Cosby is not on the show. She won't talk
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: about Robert Senior, he's not featured. She won't talk about
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: her church. She's talking about nothing. So Mary has been
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: set up for blind loyalty and success once again by
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: the network.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, so here's what I want to say about that
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: this may seem and this isn't even being the Devil's advocate.
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: This is where I actually think that this is potentially
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: a good thing. Whether Bravo is intending to do this
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: or not. I'm going to look at it as they're
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: falling into accidentally exposing Mary Cosby and exposing Robert Senior,
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: and that they know that this train is coming to
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: an end and it will explode and has been exploding,
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: and so why wouldn't they let us see it? Why
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: wouldn't they allow it in a way an exposition piece
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: of her life and this cult breaking down. I mean,
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: that's essentially what's happening. And it wouldn't have happened like
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: this had she not been on The Real Housewives. And
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: so that's why I think Bravo probably in this case,
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: for me, it's not supporting the abuse. It's in a
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: way taking down the abuse because of they're allowing these
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: things to be seen, whether she talks about it or not.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: We're already there because she's on the map, and because
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: we're seeing this and the contradiction and the money and
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: the recordings and now all these pieces. Now Robert's gone,
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: you know, I mean, he's not going to be able
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: to do what he has been doing on account of
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: the fact that she got on the Real Housewives and
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: that he even said he didn't want her to be
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: on there and she's like, oh no, you didn't know,
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: you didn't. Obviously she's she's lying. So so am I
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: going to be able to continue watching this? And I
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: absolutely wrestle with that, Melissa until I came to that conclusion,
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: and that is that yes I will, because we're on
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: to them and people are we're holding them accountable.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, you'd hope, And that's my fear is that
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: I hope you're right. But I do like what you
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: said about Bravo because what I appreciate is, you know,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: at the reunion, they showed Andy didn't shy away from
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: asking her questions. Andy did hold her feet to the fire.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: People did hold her feet to the fire. But here's
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: what happened. Jen Shaw said, hold my beer. She said,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: hold my beer, and I'm going to defraud every elderly
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: person this side of the Mississippi, and you know, and
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: then we just forgot I'm serious, Like that is literally
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: what happened. It is she was, Yes, she was the
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: slight of hand distraction that allowed Mary to poof into
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: the background and then to just come back in like
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: a glorious like a phoenix rising from the ashes. But
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: she's not, She's not that like when you see and hear,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: you know, the hoarding of her luxury goods.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: And you know.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: The other thing that we hadn't mentioned here that came
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: at the end of the documentary was that there was
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: a woman who had She was eighty one years old.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: She was working for Okay, Susan Tunsen, Pat Tounsen and
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Don Stephenson. Don Stevenson gave heavily to the church, despite
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: the fact that he was a bus driver. I don't
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: know how he did it, but he did. Susan tried
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: to stop it and was punished, and they kicked her
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: out of the church because they she tried to get
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: him to stop donating money. Right, So then Pat Tonsen,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: sister of Susan, she worked in Mary at Robert's home
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: while being abused.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: And how do we know this is because Susan was.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Told by Pat how they didn't pay. So when when Pat,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: you know, you see these people waiting on Mary and
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Robert like, hey, can you get Mary a tray or whatever?
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: These people are from the church and they were not
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: compensated in any way. Further, rosalind Enoch said that she
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: was made to be a personal assistant you know, do
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: all these other things for five plus years. She was
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: never paid, not one time. And what I find so
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: and she called it, she called it.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: A slave plantation. Rosalind did she That's what she said.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: And what's so interesting to me is that the cult
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: expert said what Mary and Robert did was they made
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: pat believe that she had to sacrifice this, that this
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: is a form of sacrifice as an honor to God,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: and it creates obedient dependence upon followers, interpersonal manipulation and
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: control that leads to family issues in segregation. Because the
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: other thing that Robert and Mary did is that when
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: you had a family member who was starting to suss
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: out what was going on, their first thought is to
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: we need to get this person away from that family
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: member so we don't lose our cash cow, so we
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: don't lose our free labor, so we don't lose our tithings.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: That is, they destroyed family lineages just so Mary could
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: have Chanel.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: And when she passed away, they told her sister she
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: couldn't go to the funeral.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: That was And it's like awful, Amy, I'm so glad
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: you brought that up, because there have been a couple
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: of things that we mentioned today that you just there's
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: ugliness in that that you can't fix.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: And that is one of them.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: That's I don't care how you slice this. These people
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: were members of your church. The sister died, she worked
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: for you, and you're not even allowing the sister to
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: have a service and to grieve her. That's not about love,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: that's not about God, that's not about spirituality. That is
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: about punishment, manipulation, control, and to all the other people
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: doing this hole you see.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: This, this could be you.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: You step out a lot sample. She's not even allowed
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: we control this. When Mary came back on the show,
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: as we mentioned before, and she's not talking about Robert Senior,
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: he's not filming, she's not talking about the church, so
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: on and so forth. Although they did go into her
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: church and talk about the renovations, which you said, you
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: doubt they're renovations, right, I mean, so they went from
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: all red to red. So that's what the renovations were. Yeah, okay, right.
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: By the way, the all Red church is psychotic. You
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: go if you go into a room like that, it's
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: like the shining You go into that hotel, you're going
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: to lose your mind. You walk into that church and
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: you're going to lose your mind, Like that's what. It's
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: the carpet, it's the interiors. You know, it is so satanic,
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: I mean honestly, Okay, when she came back on the show,
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: interesting how she was able to figure out a way
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: to expose her son. And so now I'm looking at
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: that as in a different light. It's not Robert Junior
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: was so brave to come and share this. I think
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: he was manipulated. I think he was coerced. I think
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: he was sings and this.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Was Mary said.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Mary said, I need another storyline. She said, I need
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: another storyline, and this will make me likable. Because here's
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: the thing about creditors. They are very smart. They know
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: what and here's the thing. Now that Mary's been on
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: TV a couple of years, she knows exactly what fans
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: want to see and what they don't want to see.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: She knows fans don't like this mean girl nonsense. So
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: her season one two behavior, she came back a completely
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: different person, and the chances of that from actual change
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: or zero point zero percent. I agree with you that
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: I believe she used her son as a Look over here,
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: look over here, look over here. This is a storyline
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: that will garner me sympathy. And guess what, it worked.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: It worked on me, and if it worked on me,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: I guarantee it worked on other people.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: It worked on all of us.
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: And it's not to take away from Robert Junior's struggles
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: and how that was really emotional and how empathetic we
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: are towards him, because yes, we love elergy, yes, and
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: I can't imagine what he's gone through and then to
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: be in this situation, no wonder. You know, it's like
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of questions for him. You know
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: what he acts?
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know Amy.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: The thing I want to say quick though, is that
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: now I reframe his addiction to me as a whole
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: new It's I feel like this addiction is more a
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: symptom of living in this household with Robert Senior and
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Mary and the things that they're doing and the ugliness
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: that happens behind closed doors.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: It's it's more of a.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Symptom of that family generational poison and dysfunction. That is
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: how I've kind of seen that lately.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: And now I'm not quite sure how old he was
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: when Mary went on the Real Housewives, but you know
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: clearly he was coming of age, you know, maybe seventeen
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: or eighteen, maybe sixteen, I'm not sure. But for then
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: her to come on this show and for the rest
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: of the world to understand the dynamics of their marriage
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: and then who Robert Junior is that he is essentially
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: you know, the product of somewhat of, as you say,
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: like an ancestual situation. And how does that make him feel?
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: Now the world knows this, and what does that do
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: to him? He said, I am a stain, and so
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: he's got this burden to bear. Now the rest of
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: the world is now giving their opinion on it, saying
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: that's screwed up man, and he's you know, what is
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: supposed to do with all of this information? She left
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: him for dead. She put him out there and just
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: threw him to the wolves. And again another example of
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: a non empathetic person, right, even though she did seem
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: to struggle with it. I'm sure she does care about him.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to say she doesn't. Clearly we see
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: that on some level. But I know that you're not
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: here to diagnose. I'm not here to diagnose, but I
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: am very curious to know what her psychological breakdown would
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: be because it I'm no expert, but I'm seeing some bipolarisms.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: I don't I'm not quite sure. But Melissa, could you
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: speak on that?
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I don't.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: I don't see you know, the bipolarisms kind of that
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: you mentioned. What I see is someone who is a
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: master manipulator, a master chameleon, a master of being able
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: to get what she wants at any cost. I think
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: your point about Robert Junior was so salient. When you
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: say that he feels like a stain. It's because he
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: was set up for failure by his own parents and
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: then put on TV and so much of it was
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: out of his control. How might you feel right if
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: that happened to you. But back to Mary's kind of
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: psychological profile, I see a lot of narcissistic traits and
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: tendencies where it's her over everyone else. It's her over
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: her own mother, her sister, her family, her, you know,
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: the church. I think that Mary, My honest to goodness
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: take on this is that Mary has a really significant
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: histrionic need for attention, for love, for support, for unchecked
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: positive regard, and she took that and will hurt anybody
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: who she needs to hurt or run anybody over that
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: is in her way, because she will not stop until
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: she's happy and gets what she wants. But the irony
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: of people like this and people who think like this,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: and people who work psychologically like this, as they're never
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: happy because it's never enough, because the fact of it
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: is is that you can have seventy five channel handbags,
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: it's not going to fill that hole in your soul.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: It's not going to fill that part of you.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: That is, you know, struggling, psychologically disconnected from the world,
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: spiritually bankrupt, right, And that's what I.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: Think, Wow, which makes so much sense. I mean when
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: you look at it, I mean, it makes so much sense.
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Taking people's money so that she can hoard it, taking
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: on a life that really wasn't hers, and it's a
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: match made in heaven her Robert. It's just unbelievable how
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: that all transpired. I have a lot of questions about
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: her mother. You know, that's a whole other profile that
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: we don't even have enough information to get into, but
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: that it even got to this point, and what she
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: must have experienced growing up with her mother, and it
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: just has so many legs. Now at the very end,
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: there was someone I can't remember. Her name was a
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: Denise that once Mary went on the Real Housewives, she said,
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: that's when I decided to leave the church. And I thought, well,
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: what took you so long? You know? I mean, because
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: it seemed like she was on to her and she
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: was on to them, but then she stuck around because
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: she wanted to see what was going to happen. But
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: then it was the Real Housewives situation that put her over,
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: and I just wonder why it was that?
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: So okay, I can answer that because one of the
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: things that this expert talked about is that for every person,
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: the thing that gets them to wake up essentially is
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: always so different. It's there's personal to the person. So
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: for Rosalind, the woman you were talking about, for her,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: I think filming was a bridge too far in her
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: mind for whatever reason. But for somebody else it wasn't filming.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: It was the fact that for Mary's sister, it was
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: the fact that she knew that she slept with Cameron
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: and then she preached the next day, and for her
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: it was this check of you're not practicing what you preach.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Why am I listening to you when you are getting
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: up there, you're committing adultery, you're sinning, you're doing all
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: these things. So I think for people listening to this,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: my message is for people who have had religious trauma,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: who have survived cults, gotten out of bad situations. I
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. What was it for
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: you that clicked, that got that in your brain. But
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: whatever it is, what I want to say to people
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: is good for you, congratulations. Because the ultimate thing that
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: I learned from this documentary and just like from working
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: on myself in general, is that freedom is always listening
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: to yourself and using your voice. At the end of
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: the day, doesn't matter what situation you're in, you will
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: get freedom by listening to yourself, acknowledging yourself, and saying
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: things out loud. And once you do that, you are
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: free from the shackles of whatever it is that has
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: kept you psychologically bound.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Nothing can stop you.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: So free yourself. Tell your truth, tell your story, talk
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: about it, mention it all, because that is how.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: We will be free. Oh wow, Melissa, that's great. I
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: don't know, I just like it.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just I want to end on that note,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: because you know, the members of this church, they went
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: on to start a new church, a beautiful, happy, loving,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: spiritually fulfilling, you know, a church free of manipulation and
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: man's and embarrassment and shame and humiliation everything that I'm
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: talking about. People who love you and who support you
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: aren't going to put you through that. Love isn't shame
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: and humiliation and coercive control.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: Love is I love you no matter what you do.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: And maybe we talk about it, and maybe there's consequences,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: but there's nothing that can happen in a loving, spiritual
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: setting that should be anything like this that we're looking at.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: And I'm glad that at the end of the day,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: all of these members found They're happy, they got back together,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: they found each other. But what distresses me and where
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: we leave this podcast off, is that Mary is now
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: back at her church. She's back, She's back at it,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: and I can only imagine what happens behind those doors.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: And so for people who are participating in Mary's church
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: or churches like this, I want to urge people to say,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: listen to your gut, listen to people who you trust,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: who you know aren't lying to. If you can't trust
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: your brain, if your brain is hijacked, listen to you know,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: read doctor Hassan's book, Do anything, Just get yourself to
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: a space that serves you better, because no human being
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: deserves this, No one does for everybody.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: Whether and she could, she can, she's going to say
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: something where she's not going to mention it all. She'll
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: just say, let's just say that it wasn't right and
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: I and she'll blame it all on him for what
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: happened at the church, and she'll say that. You know,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: she might take some responsibility because of him, but doubtful
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: she will. She stay on the Real Housewives is the question.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: And because she's such a narcissist, if they offer her
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: a spot, I think she will say yes, and that's
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: what she'll do. She'll continue, she'll divorce Robert, and she
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: will use her child. But I'm not sure at this point.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: If Bravo Bill ask her to be back now that
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: it's been all exposed, I'm not quite sure because I
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: don't think people will want that, even though I'm glad
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: that Brabow got it to this point, I just don't
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: know now that it's all out, that they will have
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: her back.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: Those are some interesting points and predictions. I love it,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Amy and I definitely could see a lot of that.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: For me, I my watching Salt Lake City will hinge
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: on what happens at this reunion after this doc has
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: been out, is she questioned, if this is before.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: They probably already filmed it. Though you know what I mean,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: like you think, did they already film it? Yeah?
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: They had to it because like the union's going to
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: happen next week.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: For real, My god, we'll see. I've had my head up.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: My own beat with health has used.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: So that's news to me. Okay, all right, well that's
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: a shame.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: Okay, Well then I However, however, the announcement this documentary
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: was coming out was probably within the window of before
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: when the reunion films, so they probably will ask her that.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, So for.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: Me kind of taking back the things that I just said,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: because I'm clearly confused in chronic illness land, is that
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: I want to see what people do with this. I
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: want to I think that people on the internet are
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: happy to get clicks and follows by you know, standing
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: terrible people or you know saying, well this was said,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: but I don't believe it. And what annoys me about
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: that is like when you're having like so many, like
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of survivors come forward. I don't like
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: that whole. Well, let's believe one person over you know,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: forty different people.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: I don't play that.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: So I want to know where this goes with the
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: fandom with Bravo if Mary comes back next season, which
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: I agree with you due to some of those narcissistic
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: traits and tendencies and the fact that people get emboldened
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: when they are allowed to get away with a lot,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: and Mary has gotten away with a lot, and I
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: don't think that she believes that she'll be caught. And
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: I think if she does get caught with something, I
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: think you're right that she would just be able to
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: blame it on Robert or her mom or somebody else.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: It's never Mary's fault. It's never her fault, it's never
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: her responsibility.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: And that is not going to change, I don't think.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: So. I will be very interested to see where this goes.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: For me, there's a little bit of a taint now
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: with Salt Lake City. To be honest, I don't know
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: how you feel about that.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my god, absolutely, it would be like unless
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: she if she comes back and they film every single
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: episode in every single scene will have to be about
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: Mary until we hit this, you know, the nail on
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: the head, until she's gone, forever gone.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: I think there's you cannot get around something this big.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: It's and I it's different from the Erica Jane thing
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: because she could hide behind the idea that it wasn't her,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: it was it was uh, you know, it was Tom
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: and she she pleaded ignorance. So that's why that could
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: be skirted around. But in Salt Lake City, since it's
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: already been brought up, it's only can only be brought
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: up again. I don't know how they can go like
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: on a girl's with her, you know, with this documentary,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: I find it really hard to believe unless Bravo says Mary,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: this documentary, this is exactly what they'll say to her.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: By the way, I guarantee it, this documentary is damning.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: You need to You have some choices to make. You know,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: you could speak on your own behalf and you have
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: a platform to do it, or you can let this
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: documentary tell your story. But you have the opportunity to
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: to change this. So what are you gonna do? You
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: think they'll do that, You think Bravo will if they do,
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: that's how they'll they'll put it. But I actually don't know,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: because I think that this is so unsavory what we've
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: now seen. I actually I'm thinking that they might not
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: have her back at all. I really I don't know.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: I'm actually not sure.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: Well right, and I don't expect you to know, of course,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: But it is just so interesting to pontificate about where
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: do we go from here? Because I think I think
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: the long and the short of it is that whatever happens,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: I think what we're saying is that there needs to
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: be some accountability, There needs to be some consequences. There
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: needs people can't just say, oh, Mary, she's so funny.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: Oh Mary, she's so this. It's like, no, she's hurting people.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: She's actively wounding people. And that's not This isn't cute,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: this isn't funny. And this goes so much deeper than
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: we could have imagined.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: So, and I guess, are there any legal results, Like
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: there have been no lawsuits. I haven't seen any lawsuits
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: and so and that's probably because everyone gave of their
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: own free will, so they can't.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: And that's the thing with this, Yes, with the psychological
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: aspects of cults and how they do it. The cult
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: is always not culpable, well rarely culpable, because they say, see,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: she did this of her own volition. She So I'll
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: give you a great example. Rosalind talked about how they
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: would have these heaving meetings and what they would do
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: is they would put security by the door and block
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: the door off. Okay, yeah, so does that make you
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: feel safe, comfortable, welcome, like you're just giving to give
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: or is that a shakedown? But in terms of the law,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: what people are smart enough to do when it comes
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: to cults is they use these psychological tactics that aren't
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: proven by law, by psychologists, psychiatrists, Doctor Hassan, we will
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: all tell you up and down till the cows come home,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: this was psychological abusive manipulation period and of sentence can't
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: prove it in accord of law.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: It's very hard.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not a Keith Rinier thing, you know, it's
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: not right. There were all kinds of legal issues that
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: you could get him on, but this you doesn't seem
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: like you can.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: And let's listen to be continued and if there's more
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: on this, yeah, I'll let you know, right, we will
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: let you know. That's right, Well, we'll cover it again.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: I always love and appreciate so much of what you
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: have to say about everything. It's amazing.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Amy, and I appreciate you too, And I'm
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: glad we got to talk about this. I feel like
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: it was really important. I appreciate your perspective such salient points.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: So you know, for now, we could talk about this
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: forever and listen, maybe we'll do a part two.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: I'm ruminating on this. This is like I'm just like
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: so angry about it. But for today we'll we'll wrap it.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: Up and Happy New Year, you know right.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: Happy New Year, y'all, same shit different here, No, just kidding,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: but Amy, please let everybody know where the Darling bushes
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: and everyone can find you.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: You're gonna find me right here, you know, wherever you
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: get your podcasts. Okay, that's it, Drama Darling and then
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: if you want some more you go to Patreon dot com,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 3: slash Drama Darling, Instagram meet Amy Phillips.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: How about you.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're gonna go to Patreon. You're a bish therapist.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: You can find this podcast. Anywhere you listen to podcasts,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: you can find it on YouTube, on Spotify. I am everware, honey,
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: even though I look like a hot mess today, I
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: couldn't care less. The one thing I've gotten, really you
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: do I'm not are you kidding me?
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: Right now? Is stop now?
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: I will get here now, Not in twenty twenty six,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: Absolutely not. I will not accept that you look beautiful.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: Your hair, okay, extremely shiny and gorgeous.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: So what do you hair is on? But this is
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: that Kara's days, their fatigue.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: It is Amy, It's so it's like glass glass, Oh
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: my god, my glass. Okay, Well, everybody, thank you so
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: much for listening. Thank you, Amy, and stay tuned for
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: another Darling Bush Hour at the start of next month.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, We're not going anywhere. So that's off for now.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: That's all. Disclaimer. Posts are not intended to diagnose, treat,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: or provide medical advice.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: Your Bish Therapist is for entertainment and informational purposes only.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: The podcast, my opinions and posts are my own and
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: not associated with past or present employers, any organizations, BravoTV,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: Greyheart Productions, or any other television network. The information in
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: YBT podcast and on its social media is provided for
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: general informational purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: our treat Please do not act or refrain from acting
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: based on anything you read, see, or hear on YBT, podcast,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: or associated social media. Communicating with ybtvia email and or
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: social media does not form a therapeutic alliance. Melissa, operator
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: of YBT, is unable to provide any therapeutic advice, treatment,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: or feedback.