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Cultural Leadership, Humor, and Legacy with Michael Kerr · Authentic Living

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Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
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about things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
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Hi, Ron.
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It's, Roxanne Duroch.
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Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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Today, I have this is the second time, Michael Kerr.
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Yeah.
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Peace.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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This is the 2nd time you're on the podcast.
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It's an honor.
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So I didn't mess up too much No.
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No.
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And I'm like, okay.
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He's doing gesticulation for anybody that can't see the video, and I'm like
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I'm interpreting.
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I'm yes.
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I'm interpreting.
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Sound.
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Is it Michael Kerr?
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I should know it's Michael Kerr.
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He's trying to mess me up.
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Michael is a a dear, I would say, friend and colleague, and, we're both, members of the,
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Canadian Association of Professional Speakers.
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Michael has been at at this bid a lot longer than me.
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We're saying 1998 was the first book, but membership probably longer than that, I would
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assume, Mike.
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And today, Mike's come on to talk a little bit more about he's written 9 books, and he has a
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recent book, small moments, big outcomes about leadership that we wanna chat about.
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Beautiful cover.
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Anybody can see it.
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And so we're gonna talk a lot about that today.
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So, Mike, tell me what what made you wanna write this book.
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You've written 8 before.
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This is 9th.
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What made you want to write this particular book?
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Yeah.
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It's a culmination really of years of work leading up to this book, of years of research
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going into companies, interviewing leaders, CEOs, presidents of companies all over the
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world.
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I've spoken for 20 plus years as you say, but, god, I guess close to 26 years.
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That's insane.
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Wow.
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I know.
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That's crazy.
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About humor in the workplace, I first was in that space and speaking about eventually
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workplace culture.
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And my previous books kind of funneled up into this book.
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So this book is kind of my culmination, I think, of a lot of research, of a lot of
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thinking in this area.
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And so the book very much is geared to this idea that leaders need to think of themselves,
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1st and foremost, as a leader and not just a manager, not just a boss, not just a
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supervisor, that there is a difference that goes beyond semantics between being a leader
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and being the manager, being a leader and being the boss.
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But more than that, Roxanne, being a culture leader and thinking of themselves in this day
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and age, 1st and foremost, as a culture leader.
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K.
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So define you know, I hear obviously, I either think culture, and I'm gonna assume or leader.
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Right?
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So tell me what the definition how do you define a culture leader?
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I define a culture leader as somebody who obsessively thinks about culture first and
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foremost in everything they do.
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By culture, first of all, I just how I define culture is it's your workplace mojo.
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It's the feel of the place.
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It's the personality of the place.
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It's the unique set of rituals, traditions, values, behaviors that make you and different
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than your nearest competitor.
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It's your number one competitive advantage, but here's why culture leadership matters.
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Great cultures don't just happen.
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You can't fake it.
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You can't go buy your culture at IKEA.
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Even if you did, you wouldn't understand the instructions.
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You'd have parts left over.
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So you need to because it is your number one competitive advantage, because it impacts every
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aspect of your organization, including employees' health and wellness and how well you
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communicate and work together and collaborate, how creative and innovative you are, how you
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provide customer service and outstanding customer experience, how happy employees are
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because it affects all that.
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Being a culture leader is simply about being intentional in everything you do as a leader in
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regards to your culture and recognizing that as a leader, you have a disproportionate impact on
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your culture, that everything you do and say either adds to your workplace culture in some
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way or detracts from your workplace culture.
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So being intentional about your culture means everything from hiring with your culture in
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mind so that you are hiring people who aren't just a match for your culture, but people grow
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your culture in the direction you want your culture to grow.
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It's about training with culture in mind.
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It's about communicating relentlessly what your cultural norms and values are.
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And as a culture leader, it's about getting into the habit of always thinking about when
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you make a decision as a leader, are you building the culture that you wanna build, and
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does this decision reflect the culture that you want?
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So always keeping your culture front and center in the back of your mind in everything you do
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say and in all of your decisions that guide your business.
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I'm gonna assume over your your tenure in doing this kind of work, you've seen, I gotta say,
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iterations or metamorphosis around that whole concept.
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Right?
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So I'm thinking 20, 25 years, we've gone we've seen such shifts.
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And even as, you know, soon as the pandemic, we've already seen that the companies that are
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excelling are the ones that really take this concept to fruition.
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The ones the leaders that made the phone calls or had the one to ones or did the Zooms or did
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the Facebook lives are the ones that really got it.
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And when you started way back when, I'm not calling you old, but way back when, how has
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that shifted, that whole concept of culture based on what you're talking about today, which
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makes it makes so much sense.
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Like, you'd think that everybody would get this, but not a lot of people still get it
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today.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Sadly, not a lot.
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Certainly, way more than when I started.
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When I started, I think, yeah, people talked about culture, but it was it was very minimal.
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I think it was off the radar.
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It wasn't talked about or written about all that much.
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We talked about all sorts of other things, and I think often in a very hodgepodge kind of way.
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So we talked about all these these the separate topics.
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So culture kinda pulls everything together, right, too.
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And, really, it's just been, I would say, in the last, what are we, 2025 now in the last 10
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years
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Yes.
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15 years that you've really seen a shift in a lot of organizations where they're recognizing
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and appreciating the importance of culture and putting putting a priority on that.
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And you can see that in terms of how they spend their money.
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You can see this in terms of even a lot of companies hiring chief culture officers.
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Mhmm.
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Often, they have different names, but a a position related to that, people to help
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champion the culture and to drive initiatives to help educate their employees about the
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culture and support their values and bring them to life.
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So there has been a huge shift, but but I think there's still a long ways to go.
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Absolutely.
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I would think that companies are coming forward, and they want this concept.
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They would have probably been companies that have been doing bits and bites of the the work
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along the way, or they maybe have gone through some kind of crisis in market share or there's
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something like that when they're thinking, wow.
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We seem to be generally, you know, keeping the tempo with the competitors, but now we've kind
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of been left behind, and we're not sure why that's happening.
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So when you get called in, I I know a lot of it comes from keynoting, but are there other times
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where you get calling for consulting or just like we're trying to kind of figure out how to
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keep up with the competitors?
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How might people come to you to kind of delve into this whole concept of culture leadership?
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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And and you hit on a really good point.
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That is often when companies or leaders for the first time start to think about their culture,
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when a crisis hits.
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Right?
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Mhmm.
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Or when they have a huge change in their organization.
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And they realize, sometimes much to their chagrin, that they don't really have the right
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culture in place to deal with change, to deal with innovation and creativity and uncertainty
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and all this the stuff that leaders today have to think about.
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I do get called in very often to do coaching or to to give advice and help.
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I do longer I do longer full day and multi day training workshops as well to help implement
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some of these ideas to really help them put things into practice, to help them shift their
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culture.
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And very often, companies will contact me when they've introduced some new values, actually
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mean something and they actually stick and that people take them seriously.
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I wish sometimes they would call me before they came up with their values because sometimes I
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would I would have some advice on the values they came up with.
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Like, maybe 18 values is a little bit too much.
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So that is, though, why a lot of companies and leaders reach out to me that they've they've
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got a new strategic plan or they've got new values in place.
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And so we wanna get our employees excited about this.
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We want employees to embrace our values, and and we want you to help us trans excuse me.
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Trent I got choked up talking about this because it's so exciting to translate those
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values into observable behaviors, and and that's what great culture leaders have to do.
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Right?
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We have to make sure we are translating what those suckers mean.
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Right?
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Because here's what I joke about all the time.
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Here's what I joke about in my talk.
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You know?
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Culture is held together by the values.
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Right?
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But everybody talks about values like this.
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Right?
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Like, the these
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So I'm trying for people that won't see the video, I'm looking at my what is that?
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It's a flower hat.
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He's got
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a pink flower hat.
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Everybody asks if if you're not watching this the video.
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I just
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kind of swing with him as he's got a flower head on his head.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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This is, you know, this playfulness, Michael
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Yep.
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Which is what I love about what you since I've met Michael and the kind of work that he does.
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You bring such a playfulness to a culture,
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as as
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you kind of come from the external kind of world.
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Do you find that sometimes you go in and some cultures are like the CEOs a little bit they're
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like, they're so serious.
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Right?
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And they want their values, and they they, you know, they want the tactical outcomes, and they
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want investor buy in or, you know, they have those quarterly meetings with the ROIs and all
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that stuff that they don't get that sometimes they have to shift a bit.
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Oh, for sure.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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And and you're right.
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Everything that I talk about and everything in this book, has humor throughout the book.
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I'm a huge proponent, and that is one of my main messages and themes I bring to audiences
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is the importance of humor, of having fun.
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That humor is both a driver of more collaborative, inspiring, productive, humane
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workplace cultures, but also humor is the end product of working in a positive, humane,
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collaborative culture where people feel good about themselves, where it's easy to bring in a
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good attitude to work and have a little bit of fun because you feel appreciated and valued and
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respected.
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And so it's easy to bring that sense of humor along.
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But for sure, I meet leaders like that, and here's one of my messages when it comes to
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humor.
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Humor is not about telling jokes.
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It's not about being
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funny.
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Not?
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Noun.
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Sometimes well, sometimes it can be, but it's not about being the stand up comedy of the
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other comedian of the office or being the office clown.
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And it's not always even about being funny.
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It's about being more human, more authentic, more real, being more balanced.
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It's about finding the funny in your work lives that's out there waiting waiting to be found,
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the especially the things that you can't control, right, which some days is probably a
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147%.
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And it's especially, back to your point about the stern CEOs, It's about laughing at yourself
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more.
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Is it not a truism after all, Roxanne, that the more seriously a person takes themselves, the
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less seriously we tend to take that person, which is ironic because people take themselves
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so bloody seriously in the hopes that everyone will take me seriously.
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And the reality is, I'm sorry, no one takes you seriously because you are taking yourself so
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seriously.
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So it's about being able to show your human side to laugh at yourself, which as a leader
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makes you more approachable.
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It makes you connect with your employees better.
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It creates psychological safety in your environment so people do ask those challenging
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questions and suggest outrageous ideas and point out issues that need pointing out because
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they feel safe and comfortable to do so.
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We know from studies that leaders who embrace a positive sense of humor now that's important.
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Right?
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Not a sarcastic, cynical, biting, cutting sense of humor, but a positive sense of humor.
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Leaders who think about how their use of humor will make the people around them feel better,
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that we trust those leaders more because they seem more real, more genuine.
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We know it's one of the most powerful stress busters available to us.
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It creates more resilient teams.
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We know from studies that workplaces, the teams that embrace a lot of fun tend to have lower
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employee turnover rates, lower absenteeism rates.
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Everything moves in the right direction.
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So one of my messages too is, you know, even if adding more humor into your workplace culture
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or into your leadership style, even if it doesn't generate all these benefits that I
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suggest it will, what would you rather have?
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The same level of success at work in your business and less fun or at least the same
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level of success and at least enjoy the journey a little bit more.
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Right?
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It's it's
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Right.
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Because you have to spend so much time there.
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Right?
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So you might as well you might as well have fun.
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And I like, I mean, I ran clinics, addictions clinics, and stuff like that.
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And at end of the day, you're dealing with people's lives, for instance, right, over the
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years.
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And then you realize, like, at the end of the day, we would we'd have these little jokes, and
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then you'd realize you're not making fun of people.
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You're just trying to alleviate the stress that you'd be dealing with when, say, somebody has
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kind of dealt with a bad situation with a family member or the public or the media or
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something like that.
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And then we would talk about it and, you know, somebody would bring something up.
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We'd have a good little chuckle, and then the stress level, to your point, goes down, and
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then people can kinda go off and go, I can do this again.
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Right?
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And and that's so important.
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And you make such a good point, Roxanne.
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It's it's not about taking your clients, your patients, your customers less seriously or
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lightly.
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It's about taking yourself lightly in order to be more professional in your job.
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I've spoken a lot to funeral homes, to funeral people, to our doctors and nurses and people in
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these high stress jobs, and they tell me time and time again about how they need to have a
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healthy sense of humor in order to maintain their professionalism, in order to cope with
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the job, with the demands of the job.
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So as long as you're doing it in a safe way, respectfully behind the scenes, and sometimes
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it is very black humor.
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It can be galloped humor.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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But that's okay
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if it helps you distance yourself from that stress and it helps you maintain your sanity
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and your resilience so you can be professional, then, of course, it's something we need to
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learn to embrace.
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Now, Mike, I'm curious.
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Right?
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Like, when have you come across companies that they think they're ready?
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They're like, Mike Kerr, we heard you speak, and we wanna, you know, embrace this whole
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concept in a workplace, and you have the consultation, and you go, I don't know.
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You know, if we can kind of work with you.
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Have you come across scenarios like that over kind of your time working with companies where
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you kinda give them some homework and tell them, let's talk again at a later point?
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I I'm trying to think of ones where I've actually said, no.
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I don't think this is a fit.
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I I know there are some examples where I thought, okay.
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This is not a long term relationship I wanna pursue
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Right.
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Right.
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Because they're not serious about it.
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They're not gonna take it seriously.
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They're not ready to shift their culture in this way.
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There's just too much resistance, still too much Yeah.
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Skepticism, I think.
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Yeah.
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So there there certainly are those examples.
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I think most, though, I would say the majority are open to shifting the way they do things.
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And and the number one way I find that they get excited, that they get inspired to shift things
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is through the examples that I share.
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So I hear this time and time again, especially from senior leaders where because I share so
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much research and I share examples from businesses all over to show that this stuff
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works.
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So even when you do some of these silly crazy things, here's the end result of this silly
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craziness, though.
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Mhmm.
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So this works, and that kinda sets off a lot of light bulbs, I think.
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When they see it in action, they get the idea that it's relevant that this this is something
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that they maybe need to pay more attention to.
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Absolutely.
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Right.
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And I think it's kinda like the congruence between all the levels of the organization as
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well.
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I've been assume, like, most times, like, with myself, you're kind of probably maybe at upper
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leadership, but then kind of looking at how from your senior leadership goes down to middle
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management, to your frontline leaders or managers, to the public.
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Right?
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So it's kinda you have to have that cascading elements.
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And I've worked with some companies, and the senior leadership team has a concept that they
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wanna deliver, but they're not acting in congruence with what they want the culture to
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be like.
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And then they're wanting the, you know, frontline, say, employees to act a certain way,
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but there's that disconnect.
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And working with them to say, well, you know, if you're kind of mentally, you know, not
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mentally resilient and you're reactive, but you're saying to employees that are dealing
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with customers that you can't kind of lose your cool, they need to see it demonstrated.
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So that whole kind of thread through becomes really important.
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I'm gonna assume that when you're doing work around your cultural leadership, that's what
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you're looking for as well.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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When I was I'm putting on my flower hat again when when I was talking about this
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not giggling because he's got a pink little
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Pink flower hat on.
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Yes.
18:11
Pink flower hat.
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Yeah.
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My point in this was that too many companies just treat their values like window dressing.
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Right?
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Like this superficial they put up their values on a nice poster with the puppies and rainbows,
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and they sing we are the world once a year with their team.
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And then, you know, that's it.
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There's our values.
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What what great culture leaders do very intentionally is they translate what those
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suckers actually mean in terms of specific behaviors, attitudes.
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They turn it into fun top ten list videos starring their own employees.
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Example after example, stories.
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They do a values blitz.
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They use all these creative ways to make sure people understand what their values are.
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But then and you were just talking about this.
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The second thing that's absolutely critical is, of course, modeling our values out loud, making
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sure you're seen to be living your values out loud.
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And I've talked to a lot of very inspiring leaders where I've gone in for interviews, and
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very often, the CEO of a company will be out in the parking lot picking up garbage or helping a
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customer carry bags out to their car or whatever it may be, and they're doing that
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purposefully to be shown to be seen, sorry, living their values out loud and to be sending
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the message, no job is beneath anyone here, and this is what I expect of all of our employees.
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Now the other the other thing I do see, Roxanne, is to that point of it cascading down
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throughout the organization.
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And this I find fascinating too is I've gone into big companies very often and worked with
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one department where the department is obviously miles ahead with their culture.
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They've got a fun, humor filled culture.
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They're collaborative.
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They're open minded, curious, creative, all the things you want in a great culture.
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And then I speak to another department, same company, but a little different.
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A little soul sucking, fun sucking culture in this department over here.
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And I'm sitting there thinking, holy smokes.
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You work for the same company?
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And it's like night and day.
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And so I think that speaks volumes to the importance of the senior leader in those
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departments because it it probably, in those cases, is cascading down from those different
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leaders.
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And one has done an exceptional job at building a great positive culture and the other one, not
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so much.
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Yeah.
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And and what you can learn, the cross pollination, right, potentially without calling
20:32
out someone to say somebody could be, you know, transporting this over.
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Maybe the leader shifts things a bit differently or maybe they communicate
20:40
differently or maybe they just go do little get togethers in a different way
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Yeah.
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Where they structure their their meetings differently, where they check-in, or they maybe
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have a funny story, or they they talk about a success.
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There's so many like, to your point, you can have 2 entities within the same culture, one
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getting a positive and one getting a negative.
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But with even within the culture, I'm sure there's pockets that they can learn from each
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other.
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I don't know what cross I was gonna say cross contaminators.
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That's the wrong word.
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Pollinators.
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Cross relation is is
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a natural term I think.
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So that they could kind of learn from each other and not take it personally.
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I'm not leading well.
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But in fact that, oh, this actually works better or maybe we can use this or the case
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study kind of sharing that I'm sure that you do with a lot of your trainings.
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Yeah.
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Well, benchmarking within your own organization and learnings from your stars, whether it's
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employees or teams or entire departments, looking at at the different cultures, looking
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at the different numbers even and going, hey.
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How come this department has such a low employer turnover rate?
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Mhmm.
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And over here, not so much.
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What's going on over here that we could maybe learn from and apply?
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So, you know, you're right on making sure that people aren't working in silos where they
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aren't sharing information and hogging resources and hogging ideas, making sure you
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have those open forums from different departments where people connect.
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I love this idea actually, Roxanne, that some of my clients do where they do now this is at
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an individual level, but but they rave about the impact.
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They do random coffee dates where everybody's name goes into a random name generator
22:10
throughout the entire company, and then they meet for a coffee.
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So you meet with people, and some of them do it in groups of 4.
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You go and you have coffee with people that sometimes you've never met even if it's a big
22:20
company or at the very least people that you don't see on a regular basis or work with on a
22:25
regular basis.
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And it just helps build this greater sense of community and the cross fertilization that
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happens with ideas when people get talking about their challenges and work and then people
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are, oh, you guys are doing that.
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That's so cool.
22:37
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell my boss about that.
22:40
Or you could play marketing with accounting or something together.
22:43
Right?
22:43
We're totally out.
22:45
Like, for us with familiarity.
22:46
We're gonna go you know, for an accounting, we're gonna go sit with the person that's
22:49
generally dealing with finance.
22:51
Or if we're in marketing, we're gonna go and talk with maybe marketing and r and d.
22:55
But to put 4 random people together, what what I would say a gift.
23:00
Right?
23:00
Because then you're gonna be able to say, wow.
23:02
I hadn't thought about that, like, from that perspective and just to grow an appreciation
23:07
for what everybody's responsibilities are at the end of the day to the business unit or just
23:12
the overall culture.
23:14
Yeah.
23:14
And and that's how we know creativity and innovation thrives, right, from getting
23:19
different perspectives.
23:20
I love the old saying that if you have 2 executives or 2 employees that think alike, one
23:25
of them is redundant.
23:27
So if we can get more different perspectives around the table, that's how you get new ideas.
23:33
Everybody sees different things from their vantage point depending on what their role is
23:36
in the company.
23:37
But, also, everybody has different backgrounds, different educational backgrounds, different
23:41
totally different backgrounds.
23:42
So they we all see things in a different way.
23:44
So tapping into those different perspectives and ideas.
23:48
In fact, Steve Jobs, when he redesigned Pixar Studios, when he took over Pixar, that was one
23:54
of his major goals was in redesigning the office space, the the building, was to make
23:59
sure there was more synchronicity in how no.
24:03
Not that's not the word.
24:04
It's not serendipity.
24:06
That's the word.
24:06
I knew it started with s.
24:09
There was more serendipity in terms of people just running into each other randomly so that
24:14
this cross fertilization of ideas would happen.
24:19
Well, this is amazing.
24:21
Now in reference to the book, if you're what should people expect?
24:26
Where can they go to pick up a copy?
24:28
And do you have any last words for any leaders out there or people just if you're on their
24:33
frontline and they want they're liking the concepts that we've you've kind of introduced
24:37
in the book that you might want to have them some thought or something to ponder about the
24:42
con the content we talked about today.
24:45
Yeah.
24:45
For sure.
24:46
Here's the last thing I would just remind people of, and and you mentioned it early on,
24:50
Roxanne, that, you know, work consumes a big chunk of our time.
24:53
It's the single biggest use of your energy, your talents during the short thing called
24:58
life.
24:59
And we have and I talk about this in the book.
25:01
The re one of the reasons I call it small moments, big outcomes is because, you know,
25:05
life is made up of small moments.
25:07
That's all we've got.
25:08
In fact, on average, in Canada, we are given about 4000 weeks in this thing called life,
25:14
which doesn't sound a lot when you put it into weeks.
25:16
Right?
25:17
Because weeks go by really fast, and most of us listening or watching this have probably used
25:22
up more than half of those weeks.
25:24
Right?
25:26
So work has this enormous impact in this short journey called life.
25:30
It affects our mental and physical health, our happiness, our personal lives, our
25:34
socialization, where we live very often.
25:37
It has huge impacts on our lives, and you as a leader have a disproportionate impact on all of
25:43
those things in terms of your employees.
25:46
You impact your employees' families' lives.
25:49
You impact impact your employees in substantial ways that perhaps you're not even aware of.
25:56
So I challenge you to think about what do you want your legacy to be as a leader?
26:01
What do you wanna build day in and day out?
26:04
And it is through the small moments.
26:06
That's the second reason I called it small moments.
26:08
It is through those small moments that make or break your leadership.
26:12
It is the small simple things that you do that your employees notice, and it is the small
26:18
things, I guarantee you, that will irritate the heck out of them and annoy them.
26:23
So I challenge you to think about your legacy.
26:25
The book is available on Amazon.
26:28
You can get a Kindle version, the e version, or the hard copy version through Amazon.
26:33
It is packed with relevant ideas.
26:35
It goes into different traits of leadership.
26:38
It talks about the importance of communication in the workplace, how to run your meetings, the
26:41
importance of employee recognition and appreciation, the importance, of course, of
26:45
having fun at work, how to build a service first culture, how to build a more resilient
26:50
culture.
26:51
It is packed with ideas, packed with a load of fun.
26:54
So I I hope that if you pick up a copy of the book, it will help you on your leadership
27:00
journey and help you leave behind a more positive, substantial, lasting legacy.
27:07
Awesome.
27:08
Well, Mike, it's always a pleasure.
27:10
Mike always makes me evil every time I see him.
27:13
And, again, I love the hat.
27:15
For those that, you know, aren't seeing the hat, it was very pretty and pink.
27:19
And and I'm trying to take him seriously yet again.
27:24
So, you know, for me, what am I taking away?
27:26
I talk a lot about, you know, leaders knowing their mental resilience, and Mike talks about
27:32
that much more.
27:33
Leader knowing thyself.
27:35
Who are you?
27:36
What is that what is that imprint?
27:37
When you're no longer in that space, what is the legacy?
27:41
What will they say about the Michael Kors of the world when he is no longer there?
27:45
For you as a leader, think, what is it that you want people to embody or remember with your
27:51
leadership?
27:52
And I often say as leaders, making the place a better before you leave the environment, making
27:56
that environment that much better so people remember something special about you.
28:01
So for everyone, thanks again for tuning in.
28:03
If you wanted to know how you're connected in relationships, just go to
28:06
roxieanddurhamodge.complarge@quiz.
28:09
Well, you'll do a really quick quiz, and we'll tell you kind of either at home or at work
28:14
where you are in reference to relationships and some next steps so that how to make things
28:18
better.
28:18
So, again, Michael, thanks so much for everybody with everybody hanging out with us.
28:22
Thanks so much for hanging out with us, and we'll chat with you again next week.
28:25
Okay, Mike.
28:26
Thank
28:26
you, Roxanne.
28:27
Thank
28:27
you.
28:27
Take care.
28:29
Bye bye.
28:29
Bye.
28:30
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
28:36
healthy change.
28:37
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
28:41
To work with Roxanne, visit roxandurhage.com/blueprint.
28:47
We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.