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POSH Act : What Every Founder, HR & Employee Must Know | Workplace Safety — The Complete Truth · The Collaborative Canvas Podcast

• speaker-0: Who you choose whom to be on the bench when any posh issue comes to the organization? speaker-1: It says that every workplace should provide a safe working environment, especially to women. Out of 300 companies, only 81 have been reporting the cases. Everything is in papers, not in the intent. Any women of any age coming to the workplace, irrespective of whether she's an employee, she's an intern, she's a vendor, she is a client representative, has the right to file a complaint ⁓ of sexual harassment if that happens within the workplace. ⁓ If you have gender neutral policy within the organization, the internal committee can very well take such complaints. speaker-0: For men, Luzum stand in charge. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: So welcome, Lisa. ⁓ Again, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Last time we spoke about DEI and we thought of, you I think I remember, you know, we very subtly talked about Posh when I asked that question, you know, how do you choose whom to be on the bench when any Posh issue come to the organization? But that's just not the question in itself. It's like a very vast topic and we really want to explore and thanks for bringing that idea to us so that we know exactly and but sure organization should also know where they sit on it. So let's start with the context, why Posh is actually required and what does it aim to achieve and whether it is small organization or bigger organization. speaker-1: Thank you, Ankesh, for inviting me to again on your podcast to discuss about ⁓ such a very important topic, which where where I call the posh or prevention of sexual harassment as more of a ⁓ law on dignity and respect at workplace. Now to talk about the ⁓ the ⁓ legislation coming into being, the Porsche Act, which is the sexual harassment ⁓ of women at workplace. Prevention, Protection and Redressal Act came into effect in 2013. Now, if we talk about the ⁓ the purpose of this act, the purpose of this act, as the act itself says, prevent, prevent any incidences of sexual harassment. How? By ⁓ you know, creating more awareness, by creating you know ⁓ l knowledge about what the act says, ⁓ by holding workshops, ⁓ Sessions trainings. That is how you prevent something because the more the people are aware of their rights, you can prevent it. Protection, the law also provides you with ⁓ you know ⁓ a safe environment. It says that every workplace should provide a safe working environment, ⁓ especially to women. Now, if prevention and protection ⁓ is is not enough, then there is also redressal mechanism under this act. So as far as the redressal is concerned. The law says every organization should have an internal committee to inquire about such cases of sexual harassment if that arises. And that it also provides a ⁓ you know a secured and safe platform. So what what what does it mean? It means that within the organization there is a committee who is going to take the complaint, if there is any, on sexual harassment filed by a woman. The committee is also bound To maintain confidentiality and provide a safe environment so that women come can come and speak up about any such incidences of unwelcome, ⁓ unwanted behavior within the organization. So the Act lays down the the the foundation for a safe working environment by providing protection, by helping prevent it, and also providing a previo ⁓ redressal mechanism within the organization. Now coming to the fact ⁓ you know this Act applies to whom? It this act applies to any organization which has ten or more employees. So the horizon is ten, minimum ten, and you know the maximum could be thousands. speaker-0: Isn't that not good? I considering less than 10 should also be considered under the speaker-1: Yes, ⁓ less than ten also comes under the Porsche Act ⁓ for unorganized sector. Now ⁓ it's it's very interesting and fascinating. ⁓ I'm sure it does it does an information for everybody that the Porsche Act also applies to our dwelling houses, right? The home that we stay in. The Porsche Act applies there as well. Now one may ask how? Not domestic violences, specifically under the Porsche Act, how it applies to our dwelling houses. speaker-0: the domestic violence is. speaker-1: We have households, we have maids, we have female workers who come to our house, there could be cleaning stuff and if there is any unwanted, unwelcome behavior or there is any cases of sexual harassment, even against those people while working in our house, our household, our house stuff, Porsche applies there. Now, in organized sector where there is ten or more employees, or ⁓ you know, it could be a startup, it could be a mid sized company, or it could be a huge corporate, it could be a public sector organization. Now, it in those kind of organized sectors, there is an internal committee who investigates into such complaints. But when it comes to our dwelling houses, definitely we cannot have an internal committee, right? In that case, there are local committees. Where you know one can go and lodge their complaint. And the way it is investigated within a organized sector, the same way the local committee also can investigate any such incidences of sexual harassment if that happens within a ⁓ within our dwelling houses. So Porsche Act the ⁓ you know it covers every woman who's out there working, irrespective of she's working in an organized sector. Or she is working in an unorganized thing. speaker-0: But when it comes to dwelling houses, how many of them are actually aware that know, Posh Act actually applies there? speaker-1: unfortunately ⁓ none. Unfortunately none unless and until ⁓ such initiatives are taken where those people are made aware of their rights and their duties. ⁓ even if we talk about ⁓ organized sectors, ⁓ the statistics ⁓ you know, there's not too many statistics either of how ⁓ you know how many ⁓ companies or what is what is the data of non compliance. However, I was reading through a recent ⁓ report submitted by ⁓ center of economic data and analysis from Ashoka University where they did a study of three hundred ⁓ listed n national stock exchange listed companies ⁓ on their reporting structure on Persh and the report says that out of three hundred companies only eighty one have been reporting the cases. ⁓ Only eighty one. And out of that eighty one only ⁓ half of them have been I mean more more than half of the com ⁓ cases have been reported by only twelve companies. So So that is that is the ⁓ you know that is how the the the act sh falls short of of compliance speaker-0: It is still there in the system, the books, you know, the, know, know, in the, the, speaker-1: So there are various reasons for not reporting it. ⁓ It could be lack of awareness. Secondly, even if some companies are aware of the act, ⁓ the lack of intention. And then thirdly, also a lack of trainings. ⁓ And also you could say, you know, ⁓ most of the companies ⁓ out there they think it is a checkbox, you know. It is it is a law which needs to be complied with as a checkbox and not actually ⁓ owning it. There is a difference between just ⁓ doing it for the purpose of compliance and then owning it. speaker-0: Basically there is a difference between the ground realities versus the political one. And there is a big gap which needs to be filled up. So there are two gaps which we just spoke about. One that dwelling houses don't know what Posh acted so somebody should take an ownership and make them aware. ⁓ But how many cases have been reported there? Are there regular cases? speaker-1: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we do not have such data. We do not have such data. So ⁓ time and again time and again if I talk about ⁓ you know ⁓ specific areas like ⁓ we see that the n in Noida, the nodal officer comes up every year ⁓ with a notification that all the organizations I'm talking just about the small ⁓ area within within the entire country, you know. Where the nodal officer always comes up every year with a notification that we urge the companies to come across and file their annual report. So when we talk about Porsche compliance in any organization, there are certain ⁓ parameters. Like first of all, one needs to have a policy in place because that is the guiding ⁓ you know, that the those are the guidelines for the organization, keeping in mind what are the rules and regulations under the Porsche Act. So having a policy in place is is the first thing. Next to have an internal committee. Now ⁓ when I say internal committee, that committee has to be formed within the organization where there are people within the organization representing the committee. ⁓ as per the Porsche Act, the committee members, minimum number of members in the committee should be four, three from the organization and one external member. The re the purpose of having an external member is to have a neutral person within the committee. speaker-0: The formation of the committee that I remember in certain instances, this neutral member also comes from the same industry or same company. speaker-1: No, no, that no. That is that in that case if that happens if that happens there are numerous, numerous high court and supreme court cases where the if the committee has not been formed as per the laws laid l yes, as per the ⁓ r laid down rules and regulations under the Porsche Act, then the the ⁓ you know and an inquiry has happened and there is an outcome of course at the end of the findings at the end of the inquiry, the committee will come up with a report, right? And then the either the accused Or the respondent. Both of them have the right to go and appeal. And then the courts have found out because the committee was either not formed properly or if there is a if a there's a proper formation of the committee, the committee members ⁓ did not actually ⁓ you know ⁓ did not go through the process as per the lay-down laws, ⁓ meaning that they they did not follow the principles of natural justice, not giving Enough ⁓ you you know, enough time and enough opportunities for speaker-0: Even if there is awareness, there is no intent. speaker-1: Absolutely. Absolutely. It ki it is it ⁓ if you if you talk about the intent and awareness and ⁓ you know how it goes, I think the most important factor here is what is the culture of the organization. If the leadership talks the talk right, if the leadership talks the talk and walks the talk and makes sure that they have zero tolerance towards any such incidences of sexual harassment, that is where it dro drives It is it is their speaker-0: That's a good one. down. speaker-1: It ⁓ the leadership plays a very, very, very important role. speaker-0: agree on to that because you are creating the awareness, you are doing the training but there still zero intent. speaker-1: Yes, absolutely. Unless and until there is intent, no amount of training, no amount of awareness would work. So it's a c it's more of a company culture. speaker-0: Eventually, I think we are going into the very great formation of why POSH Act has its own relevance, why a lot of organizations are not complying to it and now we see the role of the leadership into this. So, let's take a deeper look at the role of leadership. There should be a proactive conversation. speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-0: There should be intent in everybody, not just leadership. So leadership could organize the awareness, could do the training part as well, they can employ somebody and create that committee. What if everything still stays, but as you mentioned there should be a zero tolerance model. ⁓ Still it doesn't work. What is the role of leadership in that case? speaker-1: Yeah. So leadership, as I said, plays very important role in an organization, especially when it comes to implementation of a place, a workplace which is respectful, right? What I have seen in organizations where the leaderships are serious about compliances and rather than more than compliance is having a healthy work environment, ⁓ a work environment which is respectful. And ⁓ you know, where employees feel a sense of belonging. So what happens there is I have also found organizations where leaders think that the post training are not meant for them, it is just for the work persons. And there are also organizations where leadership also sit through the trainings, they are equally involved, they understand the importance of it. When The leaders and the work persons come together, sit through a training together. Everybody is you know, there there is there is ⁓ no hierarchy at that time. And then the even the work persons feels they are equally involved. They are equally involved and they are they are also part of this process. And that creates a sense of safety, that creates a sense of belonging, that our leaders are equally ⁓ you know, equally aware and equally responsible to maintaining a a a respectful workplace for us. speaker-0: basically two scenarios one where they have formed a beautiful you know workplace environment where posh is not even happening everybody is so ⁓ cautious about you know how the workplace safety is the second is where everything also happens but the posh is are not reported and even if they reported the intent cut gets lost speaker-1: There are cases. There are many. Many. Many where where you know ⁓ everything if if that happens and and what does it indicate about it about that workplace, about that organization or about that company? That everything is in papers, not in the intent, right? So there are instances where young companies maybe are taking this very seriously. So what I advise my clients is when you are hiring someone, when you are Getting a contract signed, let them read the Bosch policy. Make it a part of the c you know contract signing ⁓ document and say that we are a zero tolerance company as far as sexual harassment is concerned. Let them read it, let them sign it, let them take an undertaking and give it to you so that tomorrow they cannot come and take ⁓ you know ⁓ take the stand that I was not aware about this act. That is how you create a speaker-0: But that's not just for the people who are joining the company. Now considering the Posh Act came in 2013, ⁓ company would have started long back, like 2000. So whenever they update their policies, it should be a definite sign through with every single employee who joined ever since then. speaker-1: Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, the Posh Act says that every organization should conspicuously place the ⁓ you know the policy in place, that we have a policy. Secondly, who are the internal committee members? Let's say there is any incidence, it can be easily reported. One has d do not have to look for, you know, where to report about this ⁓ incident that had happened to me. ⁓ so the law says you should have a policy, it should be conspicuously placed ⁓ at your workplace. The committee members, their contact details, their email IDs should be ⁓ you know, again ⁓ put in the notice board very visible. Now one very important aspect of the Porsche Act is any women of any age coming to the workplace, irrespective of whether she's an employee, she's an intern, she's a vendor, she is a client representative. Irrespective of who she is, right? ⁓ has the right to file a complaint ⁓ of sexual harassment if that happens within the workplace. Could be anyone, could be anyone. And then there are instances where companies come and tell me, ma'am, ⁓ we are a small company, we have ten more ten or more employees, but then all of the employees are male. Why do we need to ⁓ you know follow the compliances under Porsche Act? Now the question is. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: Although you are all ⁓ you know, there's only male members in the organization. But you could be having ⁓ you know, client representative who could be a woman. You could be having maybe cleaning staff who could be a woman, you could be having some security guard who could be a woman. speaker-0: Something that we actually spoke about in our previous episode as well. I remember you mentioned the same thing about you know not necessarily that you know it's a male-run organization. We're females there so we don't need a posh. But shouldn't this apply to males as well? speaker-1: Yes, it should. It should. So ⁓ what happens is ⁓ if there are any instances where rather the male per member is harassed by a woman, right? If you have a john gender neutral posh policy within the organization, the internal committee can very well take such complaints. But but I would definitely like to make a disclaimer here. Now internal committee under the Porsche Act speaker-0: So we will come to that. speaker-1: is supposed to take complaints only by women. It could be against a woman as well. Against a women as well. speaker-0: So the Posh Act for men doesn't stand any chance. speaker-1: It doesn't s ⁓ it would be wrong to say it doesn't stand because if there is any false complaint by any women against a male employee and ⁓ in that case, if the at the end of the inquiry it is found out that it was a false and malicious complaint, the punishment, you know, the punishment which are laid down, and those are mostly, you know, whatever is laid down in the service rules and HR handbook and all. disciplinary policies, it could be demotion, it could be transfer, it could be termination also. In that case, the same punishment applies to the female employee who has falsely filed a complaint of sexual harassment. So in that way, it would be wrong to say it does not protect men, it does protect men against any false ⁓ you know, complaint of sexual harassment. speaker-0: Lisa, I'm not going to talk about what are the loops in the act because I see, ⁓ I have seen multiple cases. I mean, they have been reported in certain organizations, but you know, when you enter a network zone, you get to know about them. There's one such case which was reported about that false allegation on somebody and then this guy was asked to leave and he got, you know, laid off from that organization, but that was a false allegation. ⁓ Nothing happened. So probably either the organization to, you know, save its own reputation When they know that you know this woman who have put up the allegation ⁓ Even if she's not helping us out in any which ways We cannot just leak this out that you know there are sexual harassment happening in my organization Because that can put the stocks down or can we have a bad reputation on us? So they would eventually go and you know amicably ask I think you know you should leave the organization to this melee speaker-1: I'm sure that I'm sure such incidences definitely happen. There have speaker-0: They are not counted within those 81 out of 300 that you mentioned. speaker-1: the very limited ⁓ no numbers of talking about. I mean, you know, if you take about talk about the Yeah, yeah. So what I'm what what I'm I'm saying here is if that is the case, then ⁓ what the ⁓ the the men in that case have the right to go and appeal against the ⁓ against the ⁓ recommendation of the inter speaker-0: As an example problem is that men come with a psychology that you know I have a child to take care of, I have a family to take care of. What if I go to the other organization and when they do a follow-up check on me they found out that I have been executed because of the Posh Act. I am not going to get that job. So they try to hide that. speaker-1: It is it is for both the genders, I would not I would say the same. speaker-0: Saying that it is not for both the genders, it is just that you know the loops are violating. speaker-1: Right, I'll tell you. I'll give you I'll I'll I'll I'll give you a very ⁓ you know ⁓ a real life example where I helped a client. So this client was working in a ⁓ multinational organization where the client was traveling with ⁓ another female client and and they were from one city to another city and during the trip ⁓ you know the the female ⁓ employee she complained of sexual harassment against this ⁓ male counterpart. And what happened, instead of holding an entire inquiry, I mean there was it was it was not even taken by the internal committee of that organization. And ⁓ he was asked to leave. He was asked to leave, right? Now what happens is what happens is what are the violations here? First of all, i th there's a violation of the constitutional rights, right? Secondly, he was he was not given a chance to to say his story. Thirdly, it's a violation under the Porsche Act as well. So what when the client came to us, we helped draft a very strong legal notice, send it to the organization. And and in fact the organization also was also trying to prevent him to, you know, because he was in a very senior position and, you know, the network, right? So organization was calling up other organizations wherever he was trying to, you know, apply for a job. are saying that there have been disciplinary and and they have put it under disciplinary proceed action actions, not specifically calling it posh. Rather it should have been actually an investigation under posh. Let it come under posh, let the committee investigate it and come to a conclusion whether there have been any incidences of sexual harassment or not. Because the Porsche Act also says that when it comes to inquiry, principles of natural justice has to be followed. You cannot just have Hear one side of the story and come to a conclusion. You need to be a neutral committee. And that is why within the Porsche Act also, it says that your committee should members should be four minimum, with three from the organization, one external. The chairperson should be a woman. 50% of the committee members should be women, and 50% could be male or female. However, it is always advisable to have. equal number of ⁓ you know gender representation and rather I suggest ⁓ having a committee of four rather than having a committee of four have a committee of five because what happens in that case is when you have a five member committee including the external member who is not from the organization and is a neutral person ⁓ if even if there is a ⁓ you know there is a difference of opinion let's say half of the people half of the committee members think that it is a case under posh And accordingly, whatever the punishment or recommendations needs to be met out and the other half feels no it is not. At least when you have an odd number in the committee, then you have a majority decision, right? And that always helps to come to a conclusion. What is the objective of having an internal committee? The internal committee, as I mentioned at the beginning, is supposed to maintain confidentiality. Why confidentiality? Reason being, ⁓ you know, if w whenever there is a case of ⁓ sexual harassment coming out in the public. It is the reputation of the organization also which is at stake. It takes a lot of effort, resources, hard work to bring an organization to a level of, you know, repute. So it tarnishes that reputation, brand image, s share market, stocks, you know, everything a is at stake. And there have been so many instances, so many organizations, you know, Fortune five hundred companies also where they had seen this kind of fluctuations in the stock market and Settling matters out of the court because of such incidences of sexual harassment. speaker-0: But again those are the larger organizations. Smaller organizations of 25 people. The brand reputation and there two things. fact, you when the sexual harassment or the POSH is being reported, it is within those people, the internal committee and you said you know they have to keep that confidential. It doesn't work that way because they promote that you know I am in the committee and I am doing this and this is what the case has been. That's a 25 % speaker-1: That should not that is where that's that I'll tell you what. Why why did this this happen? Why why does it happen in let's say for example a twenty five people organization that will only speaker-0: whether they should brag about it they should not speaker-1: See, see ⁓ they are a part of committees of public information. It is not only within the organization, but but it should be put, as I said, even in the notice board, saying that this is our Porsche committee and this is the contact number and this is the email ID. As per the law, why? Why? Because even if there is an intern coming, even if somebody who's come for an interview, they should know that this organization has a committee in place. If something like this happened, I can report it. Right now. In a smaller organization, if committee members are bragging about it, what does it reflect on the organization? That means they are not they did not have the proper ⁓ training. Absolutely. They should be well trained. They should know their rights and responsibility. In fact, it is not ⁓ out of ⁓ context to ⁓ put it across a very important point here that the internal committee also has equal rights, ⁓ equal powers of a civil court. Meaning the internal committee has the power to call for witnesses, take in ⁓ you know documents into evidences like the judges in the civil court have all this power to summon someone, let's say. There is a witness for to ⁓ in an incident that have happened, and then that witness ⁓ moved over to another organization. How do you how as an internal committee again you have a time limit as well? The Porsche inquiry should be ⁓ conducted within a period of 90 days from the date of getting receiving the formal complaint to finally ⁓ you know inquiring and submitting the report. It's a ninety day period. Now, let's say during that investigation. one of the witnesses move to another organization, right? What how what control does the committee have? Otherwise. But the law says as an internal committee, you have equal rights, equal powers, ⁓ power of a civil court. So you can summon that person even if that person is sitting somewhere else in the in the country and not working in your organization. So that is the power of this of the internal committee. And that is why it is very, very, very important to ⁓ educate to to make aware of the r responsibilities of the internal committee. Whatever they are doing, they have ⁓ a lot to a lot in stake in terms of ⁓ ensuring that the inquiry has happened as per the laid down laws and they have followed the principles of natural justice. speaker-0: So in order to have a committee more strengthened and to understand their effectiveness, they should be given enough powers to act like a civil court. But that doesn't happen most of speaker-1: Absolutely. Doesn't happen because ⁓ again ⁓ there there are speaker-0: I may be wrong but internal committee out of the four three are coming from the same organization they have to you know ensure that you know the brand reputation doesn't get spoiled or probably they are looking at their own MDs of the word or CEOs of the word and the owners and the founders of the word that they have to protect their image as well. speaker-1: And that is where the role of leadership comes in, where the internal committee also is given the liberty to act as an independent inquiry ⁓ you know ⁓ agency. It's a fact-finding agency. That is what they are doing, right? The internal committee. Now, the internal committee, if it is influenced by the leaders, or let's say there is a complaint against one of the senior leaders, that is again another. ⁓ you know, dilemma or question that the internal committee has to deal with. However, if the organization has that kind of an environment where there is ownership, where when they say there is zero tolerance, it means that it is zero tolerant towards anybody, irrespective of whether it's a senior officer or it is the junior most within the organization. Law is equal. speaker-0: So, we talked about the efficiency of ⁓ ICC ⁓ but how does company should move from just checking the Posh or taking the Posh on a checklist then actually ensuring that it has more you know a respect driven and inclusivity driven ⁓ solutions or probably how do you call it you know the justice that is being given to the Posh victims as well as the other speaker-1: Right. That's right. So one, to have very strong ⁓ you know, ⁓ policies which everybody should be aware of. What happens is whenever you are ⁓ working in an organization, maybe you are not even aware there is a policy that exists. Maybe you're not even aware that the there is an IC. Now it is the role and responsibility of the human resource, HR department, as well as the leadership to make sure everybody who's walking into the organization. I'll give you a very Very classic example where where I thought this is how implementation needs should be. Very recently I went to the ⁓ cantonment area ⁓ Sribrothapark and ⁓ I was just entering the the ⁓ CSD canteen area. And just while entering the con you know the complex, I saw a big board where it says this is ⁓ a place where we do not tolerate any kind of sexual harassment. We have a committee in place. This are this is their email address. It is like big on board. I mean I was so impressed. It's a complex, it's a market complex. Everybody is walking out there. But then that falls under ⁓ you know the cant cant area and they have put it right there. I speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: As a customer, I as a visitor, I mean, you know, I may be going to the bank, I may be going to the C S D or I may be going anywhere their shopping complex, you know. But then they have put it there. That is how you build that culture. speaker-0: not just protected that a small proximity area but the entire area speaker-1: In the entire area, anybody who's walking in they know okay, this is a safe protect this is where I'm protected. They have a redressal mechanism and that is what the law says. But if you walk to an organization, if you walk to any company, the moment you go well go to the reception, it should be there. speaker-0: You CCTV. speaker-1: We have a policy and speaker-0: I certain organizations which do mention about this that there is zero tolerance policy here. So irrespective of whether it is POSH or any other relevant policies which are implemented in the organization. And I have seen organizations sign the DOAC at the very first moment. So the moment you join the organization they ask to sign all the policies there. Because that is also in their auditing process. But what if everything happens and I mean I am coming back again. speaker-1: Absolutely. Okay, go back to the influence. See there again at the same time. ⁓ it will not be out of context to hear discuss about the ⁓ you know Fanish Murti case, ⁓ which is like Infosys had to settle that matter out of court settlement and ⁓ sell out a huge amount as ⁓ damages. Now Infosys is known for its good governance, right? Having strong policies and Fanish Murti was was one of the blue eyed boys of Infosys. But despite that Despite that, there were cases of sexual harassment against him filed by his executive assistant. And then finally, ⁓ he had to leave the board, he had to leave the organization. He joined IGate, right? He was in fact one of the founders of IGate. And ⁓ he also helped IGate move, you know, build and then, you know, build b build IGATE similarly. But at the same time, again, in IGate also, he had ⁓ an affair. with one of his employees and he failed to report it as a as a board member and later on again sexual harassment allegations were put against him, came came out him. So there are there as I mean this isn't classic example where despite having good governance, despite having all the policies in place, there would be instances where because it is mindset. It is mindset, right? But what needs to be done, ⁓ At the very beginning, at the very inception, is ⁓ you know, make everyone ⁓ conscious and aware, and that happens through lot and lot of trainings, lot and lot of conversations. Conversations. What organizations do as a checklist is they file an annual report. Some some of them don't even report any cases. They say that we have zero cases of sexual harassment. Some do training once a year, once. you know, ⁓ all all the employees are put together for a post training done. Internal committee again once in a year. Do it repeatedly. I mean I'm not saying you need a one hour, two hour training ⁓ every month, but then there's there are so many ways. Like what I do with my clients is we have come up with comic strips. We we call it adroit link safe stories. So what we do is we come up with comic strips every month where we take out one story. A very short 30 second read. You just read the comic strip and understand this falls under sexual harassment. It's just a reminder. Every month there's a comic strip which which we are flowing to our clients and then they ⁓ you know, disseminate it to their employees. It's just a reminder. It's just a reminder. Other ways could be if you have a speaker-0: I think two things which work, you are mentioning and I am going through it, that comic strip catches our attention. Yes. But more than that when it comes for explaining how sexual harassment should be avoided, that two words in itself catch the attention even if you are not reading it. That you have been reminded about sexual harassment not to be done. speaker-1: Exactly, exactly. That is how you can create event. I mean if if there is right intention, ⁓ I mean I I think I think there are ways also to handle. speaker-0: I think even if their awareness, their training, their no intention but these act can at least minimize the impact of having certain things where intent should not even come as a third play. speaker-1: ⁓ okay that that's a very, very important point you have brought up here. Again, one very important aspect of Porsche Act is it is not the intent which matters. It is the impact. Now I'll give you a very classic example. Let's say there is an annual party and everybody is going to that party and ⁓ there are three colleagues together who enters a lift and there are two women, one is wearing a red dress and another wearing a black dress, and there is an another male colleague along with them. Now two female colleagues And one male. Three of them enter the lift. And hi, hello. And he says, ⁓ wow, you're looking very hot in the red dress. Okay. And to the one who's wearing the black dress, he says, ⁓ you are equally looking very ⁓ you know, very beautiful and equally hot in the black dress. Now, let's see, the girl in the red dress says, Thank you, and smiles. The girl in the black dress. Feels uncomfortable. She does not smile back. She has a rigid body language and like, excuse me, maybe that's what she says. And ⁓ she could even go ahead and say be very book vocal that I do not like such comments or compliments. Please do not do it. Now, same compliment given to two women similarly dressed. One says, Thank you. Alright? The other says no, thank you. Now Law says if somebody says no, thank you, okay, because it impacted her. That gesture is not welcome. Stop. If you repeat it, that'll fall under sexual harassment. So very, very important aspect of Porsche Act is impact, not intent. What's because it happens. I have seen in my trainings and seminars, you know, leaders and people coming and saying, May we did not intend to. But the point is the test is not on intent. The test is What is the impact? How somebody is taking it? speaker-0: So I think that's a very great example. So not every case is black and white. speaker-1: No, not at all. It's a very grey area. speaker-0: a very grey area. how can HR leaders can ensure they are dealing in certain sensitive cases, perceptive cases, how do these guys should deal in those cases? speaker-1: Well, see being an HR one has to be empathetic. And I'm not saying only towards the victim, but ⁓ should be mindful towards the accused as well. Because at the end of the day it was the reputation of both the individuals as well as the organization. Now, as an HR, what happens is see, we are talking about such cases where ⁓ instances could be very speaker-0: The context are widely open. speaker-1: Yes, context is why absolutely. It could be as simple as you're looking beautiful in this hot, you know, red dress, ⁓ and not liking it to maybe going to ⁓ physical ⁓ sexual harassment, you know, where where somebody is maybe d ⁓ bruised. No, it could be even amount to rape because there are instances if you go if if we talk about there is a very speaker-0: Thanks for watching. speaker-1: detailed ⁓ you know, report submitted by ⁓ Supreme Court ⁓ Justice ⁓ Justice Hema Kurley, she's retired now on Malayalam ⁓ film industry where it talks about how the women are treated in in a you know, it's a very detailed report and it came up in two thousand the s it was submitted to government in two thousand nineteen but it took five years to release that report with almost sixty five pages redacted to conceal certain information. So im Imagine the you know depth of this, the the ⁓ gravity ⁓ of how women work in various organisms. So we we are talking about, you know, that context from very simple comment to something as as g as heinous as ⁓ rape as in fact ⁓ again ⁓ the entire Porsche Act, the ⁓ the genesis or I could say the origin was the famous case of Bhavri Devi. Right. So what happened in that case and that was in nineteen ninety two. So what happened in Bhavridevi cases, ⁓ she was working for ⁓ government of ⁓ Rajasthan, state government, and her job was to ⁓ prevent child marriages. Now what happened in the occasion of Akhatij? there was this ⁓ you know, they have this community wedding. So in the occasion of Akhatij there was this ⁓ Very influential ⁓ Raj family from Rajasthan who were who was getting their son married to a nine month old girl. Yes, nine month-old girl. Now Bhavri Devi objected to it. Of course, it was part of her job when she came to know if it she went to restrict that and say that this is illegal, child marriage, and then she's just nine month old, you cannot do that. What happened is this very influential family of Rajasthan, of course, they went ahead with the wedding and then the next day they ⁓ raped her and tortured her husband as well. speaker-0: Nine months. speaker-1: She went from pillar to post to file her case, but police did not take up her case initially. ⁓ fire was delayed. And ⁓ she went to ⁓ even the government because she was doing her duty. State government of Rajasthan, she did not get support. Finally, after running from pillar to post, ⁓ an NGO called Fishaka took up her case, all right, and then represented her in the courts. And finally it ca came to Supreme Court and in nineteen ninety seven, from nineteen ninety two to nineteen ninety seven, yeah, five years. In nineteen ninety seven, Supreme Court came up with the guidelines called known as Vishaka guidelines. That was kind of first you know ⁓ specific ⁓ legislature. I'll not say fully legislature because it was just guidelines, you know, where ⁓ it was it was mentioned how ⁓ women should be protected and what should be the work environment when when women are working in a workplace. ⁓ but then the irony it Is that was just guidelines, no law as such where non-implementation would attract any punishment or fine. So ⁓ it took another twenty years in two thousand twelve. We all know about the Nirbaya Khand. Yeah. And after the Nirbahya Khand, the entire conscience of the nation shook up and all the world was looking at India. Like what are they going to do now? And that is when the legislature came into effect and that is how the Posh Act. twenty thirteen came into effect after the Nirbaya Khan because that is when everybody felt that we need a strong law wherein we t we ensure that when women are working specifically in a workplace, they need to be protected. You know? Because ⁓ as far as you know, protection against harassment is concerned, or if you talk about equal rights and dignity, it is laid down in Indian constitution, it laid down in IPC as well, there are fines, you know. There are punishments also. But this act came specifically to protect the rights of a woman, to provide her a place which gives her respect and dignity while she's working. speaker-0: What happened in 1992 versus when the Posh Act came into its existence in 2013, it took us almost 21 years to realize that we really need to have a Posh Act in the play. Now considering we talked about PPR, talked about intent, awareness, there are still cases which are not reported. What is that one suggestion you would give to those people who are actually getting harassed? speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-0: But are in or probably unable to report those cases for any reason. What would you give them as? speaker-1: So first of all I think it is very very important to not take any such behaviour. First of all, raise your voice. You're not weak. There are mechanisms, there are ways to, you know, get your concerns addressed and redressed. ⁓ if an organization has a policy in place, has ⁓ a committee in place, is filing the reports annually and undertaking trainings and seminars to educate their employees, you know, that should Give them the ⁓ give them the the platform to bring out that voice and then as you rightly asked the role of HR. HR needs to be again empathetic to such ⁓ you know women coming out and reporting such incidences. However, again under the Posh Act, the HR is not supposed to investigate anything. The HR is just to listen, be empathetic and guide them to the internal committee. That is why. The internal committee plays a very, very important role here. Now as far as ⁓ awareness is concerned, again HR is the HR should own it, you know, as the part of their role and responsibility to disseminate that information to the employees. despite that, let's say you have an internal committee and you have an HR, you feel that they are they are there, but then you are still apprehensive of ⁓ reporting that complaint. Now there is a SHI box, S H E box, ⁓ which is a platform. It's an online electronic platform under the Ministry of Women and Child Development wherein you can report such cases of sexual harassment if you do not feel like complaining it ideally you should your internal committee should be neutral committee where you should feel free to go and approach and you know file a complaint. If not, you can also ⁓ file your complaint online under the She Box. And what happens there is once the complaint is filed, the ⁓ the She Box ⁓ you know, the the Ministry of Women and Child and ⁓ Development, they will ⁓ contact the company and they will inquire whether they have an IC in place and then they will say that we have received a complaint as such, ⁓ you know, coming from one of your employees, you need to investigate it. There have been also cases where ⁓ you know internal committee has refused initially to take such complaints. So what is the test for internal committee? The like you know, there have been all ⁓ so many cases where clients come and ask me that ⁓ we do not know w if we should take this case or not because ⁓ it is a gray area. We think this may not fall under posh. It's fine, it may not fall under posh it could be a case. But yes, take the case. Investigate it. We are not asking you to may not be error, but at least take it. Alright, take it. Here are both sides of the story. Because under the Posh Act, again within the framework of how internal committees should conduct an inquiry. it also says that if it is not a various very ⁓ grievous offense, you can always ⁓ you know ask the parties to come to a settlement. Settlement could be a simple apology, it's fine to the women. speaker-0: It may not be a Porsche. speaker-1: She may say, Alright, I do not want him to be ⁓ demoted or I do not want him to have a pay cut or terminated. I mean obviously again that will depend on how serious the the the offense is. ⁓ but she can also say that he he may write a written apology to me and I'm fine with it. speaker-0: Okay, Lisa one more thing and probably my last to go question with respect to the same advice to the employees even if they are hesitant and if you really have to break their hesitance are there any committees outside of the organization where they can go and report as a backup plan if they are hesitant to report it within the organization? Just like you know can they hit the of a lawyer? speaker-1: ⁓ Okay. So no no. So what happens is ideally ideally they should report it to the internal committee, but if it is such an offence where ⁓ you know they th it it could be a physical harassment or more serious, it's a criminal offence, they can also report it to the ⁓ police and then f and file an FIR. And then an investigation can also parallel ⁓ be, you know, conducted, but then it'll be independent of each other. speaker-0: It means that organizations are not part of it. speaker-1: Org see, ⁓ if they report it to the police also again, the police will also come to the in in organization to investigate why was it not reported within the internal committee. I mean they will just come and maybe speaker-0: In that case, organization can say that you know that's nothing related to me. You can, you wanted to inquire about the victim and the abuser. You can actually go ahead and I can leave them, you know, can terminate it. speaker-1: What what what happens is ideally first of all they should approach the internal committee, all right? The employee should be comfortable enough and confident enough in the internal committee that yes, this is going to be redressed if I reported. First they go there. If it and and if they feel that crime is such that ⁓ it also needs to be an affair also needs to be lodged, then they can also parallelly file a complaint to the police. And as I said There is also option of she box. So these are the various ways where a complaint can be filed. speaker-0: So those were the questions about how POSH Act can be seen and of course I always encourage people to talk about you know if they have anything in respect to you know whether I should report the POSH or not I mean I think that's more of a critical question that I always go with a lot of people don't report and that's the start of the conversation we always mention you know the reported cases are less than what the estimated cases should be. ⁓ You've still got any questions. We got Lisa right up here. ⁓ Her details in the description box. So you can definitely reach out to her and she'll be more than happy to help you out with her advice as to how you can tackle a certain situation. Thank you so much Lisa for turning up on the show again and talk about the greater detail because as again I mentioned the last time we were talking about just how this can be implemented. But I think we wrote our entire story about it and I think two of the brilliant cases that she mentioned about ⁓ you know that one example along with that one example could be a good facilitating example for you. So feel free to know ask her and you know give her a nudge and see you in the next episode. speaker-1: Thank you so much. Thank you, Ankesh. Thank you. Thank you once again.