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243: Culture vs. Compensation: Why 82% of Managers Are 'Accidental' and How It's Costing You Talent · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

• 0:46
  Hello listeners and welcome to the Customer Service Revolution podcast, where we help leaders build organizations their customers and their employees cannot live without.
• 0:55
  Today's episode addresses one of the most urgent leadership challenges we hear everywhere.
• 1:00
  How do you reduce employee turnover when competitors are offering more pay?
• 1:06
  After decades working with organizations across industries, we've learned something that surprises a lot of leaders.
• 1:12
  Most employees don't leave because of pay.
• 1:15
  they leave because of how they're led.
• 1:17
  They leave because of inconsistency, lack of clarity, emotional exhaustion, and feeling disconnected from the people who lead them.
• 1:25
  The companies that win the talent war are rarely the ones paying the most.
• 1:29
  They're the ones creating an employee experience people don't want to leave.
• 1:34
  Today, we're talking about the leadership behaviors we teach inside the Customer Experience Executive Academy.
• 1:40
  The same behaviors that reduce turnover, strengthen culture, and develop leaders that people want to follow.
• 1:46
  John, before we break this down, first off, welcome.
• 1:50
  How are you?
• 1:53
  Fabulous, thank you.
• 1:54
  Can you share an example of an organization you've worked with that reduced turnover without raising wages and what their leaders changed?
• 2:02
  Yeah, well first, you gotta be competitive in the marketplace for jobs, right?
• 2:06
  And we all know that, or, you know, we've spoken about it a lot, you know, in the past 40 years, executive pay has gone up 335 % to what employee pay is.
• 2:22
  you know, so I don't wanna, you know, you gotta be competitive.
• 2:25
  You gotta...
• 2:26
  ah I think Daniel Pink says it best, you got to pay people enough that it takes, you know, pay off the table.
• 2:33
  That's not, you know, what they're worried about.
• 2:35
  But yeah, there's a lot of great companies that, you know, whether it's 10 % or nights and weekends or more flexible schedule, work from home opportunities, whatever these things
• 2:48
  become,
• 2:48
  you know, less of an issue because the culture is so good, because the soft and hard benefits are so good.
• 2:56
  So, I mean, I think all the world-class brands like, you know, Chick-fil-A's and Ritz Carlson's of the world, you know, what they say is we hire from the exact same labor pool
• 3:07
  as our competitors do, and we don't pay, you know, more than, you know, our competitors do.
• 3:13
  It's what we do with them after we hire them.
• 3:16
  So, I mean, there's just a long list of the training and education to the personal side of their development.
• 3:27
  So many more, which I'm sure we're gonna get into.
• 3:29
  In the Customer Experience Executive Academy, we teach leaders that retention is not an HR initiative.
• 3:36
  It's a leadership responsibility.
• 3:38
  Let's talk about behaviors that make employees stay.
• 3:42
  you've taught for years that people don't leave companies they feel connected to.
• 3:46
  What do leaders do or fail to do that determines whether employees feel that connection?
• 3:52
  Well, I think the first mistake almost every company, every leader has been guilty of, especially me and us, is when we have turnover, you know, we hire anyone to replace them.
• 4:05
  That's horrible.
• 4:06
  And the second thing is that we look the other way.
• 4:10
  on poor performers because let's say we need 10 new employees.
• 4:14
  And that could be from growth and that could be from turnover, attrition.
• 4:18
  Well, if we let go of those other two that we should let go of, now we're gonna need 12.
• 4:23
  So we make excuses.
• 4:25
  you know, it's the old example that everyone's heard that I love, you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.
• 4:32
  Well, that's true for employees too.
• 4:34
  And, employees don't get to choose their five average, you know, we choose for them.
• 4:40
  And there's an old quote that whenever I say it, I say the first part, employees don't quit companies, they quit.
• 4:47
  And everyone says bosses, leaders.
• 4:50
  And, you know, not necessarily, they quit people.
• 4:53
  And yes, they can quit shitty bosses, but they also quit if they can't stand the people they work with.
• 5:00
  and they're toxic and we're not protecting that culture.
• 5:04
  They're gonna get the hell out of there or they're C minus performers.
• 5:09
  we really have to, one of the easiest things to say, hardest things to do, but it's so important is it's better to lose the sales than the reputation.
• 5:20
  And listen, I want 10 times growth in all my businesses.
• 5:23
  Absolutely.
• 5:24
  But, you know, we have a waiting list of consulting clients or in the salon business or whatever business we're talking of.
• 5:32
  And if we just fast-tracked, hired someone, man, we could take so many more new clients and, you know, be, you know, increase sales.
• 5:42
  But if we take new clients and give them to just anyone who's not up to the reputation,
• 5:48
  and the standard that we've set in the past, well, they're gonna not resign, not come back and do brand terrorism about us.
• 5:57
  so as hard as it is, it's better to say no, not today, know, maybe in three months versus give them to anyone and just have, you know, it's the employee roulette thing.
• 6:08
  One of the most important leadership traits is trust.
• 6:12
  How does trust show up in daily leadership behavior?
• 6:16
  Not just in words or value statements, but in behaviors.
• 6:20
  Yeah, so my favorite leadership quote, and it's not mine, I don't remember who it came from, is, go show the proper way and when necessary use words.
• 6:29
  Right?
• 6:30
  And so if you're modeling the behaviors of customer experience, of caring, of knowing the Ford of your team members, family, occupation, recreation, and dreams,
• 6:43
  then you can, you then they're going to want to, you know, give, deliver that type of experience to customers.
• 6:49
  So, but, but you got to model the behavior.
• 6:51
  mean, so many times we've all worked in businesses where, you know, the leader screams at us and, and, you know, it doesn't treat us well.
• 6:59
  But, you know, they don't understand why we don't treat the customer well.
• 7:03
  Well, if our morale's down and we feel that we're being hypocrites and, and even unethical.
• 7:11
  There's a phrase we use, educate versus sell to a customer.
• 7:16
  And that means telling them what they're looking for might not be in their best interest and taking a better deal off the table, taking a great sale and reducing it to a smaller
• 7:27
  sale because that's not what, that won't benefit them.
• 7:30
  Now in the long haul, that's gonna come back.
• 7:32
  and benefit you because the customer's going to trust you.
• 7:35
  But you might have leadership saying, no, sell the first package.
• 7:40
  We need the sales.
• 7:41
  most people don't want to work for a company that, if you're cheating the customer, you're cheating the employee.
• 7:48
  One of the biggest drivers of employee turnover is inconsistency.
• 7:53
  Different expectations from different leaders, shifting standards, unclear priorities.
• 7:58
  In the Customer Experience Executive Academy, leaders spend a lot of time learning how nevers and always standards help create clarity.
• 8:08
  Why does predictability matter so much to employees?
• 8:13
  Well, both employees and customers, got to be in the certainty business.
• 8:17
  got to, you know, the number one cause of anxiety is uncertainty.
• 8:21
  And we have to do that for employees.
• 8:24
  And so they know what to expect.
• 8:26
  They have to understand the why behind why this is important, why the customer needs this, why the customer needs you to be present, why the customer needs, why you should be
• 8:37
  empathetic at times, you know, why you should be, you know.
• 8:40
  building a relationship, giving them escape, coming to the rescue, whatever that may be for them.
• 8:47
  And again, what's felt on the inside is going to be delivered on the outside.
• 8:51
  And if the employees don't have predictability, if they don't have certainty, employees hate to appear unprofessional.
• 9:00
  They hate if the technology isn't working.
• 9:03
  They hate to get beat up by a customer.
• 9:05
  They hate when they get a call and the product didn't show and it's out of stock, but the employee wasn't told.
• 9:13
  That looks horrible on the employee.
• 9:16
  No employee wants to go home and have gotten beaten up a dozen times today by customers.
• 9:23
  when you prepare the employee and they're in the certainty business,
• 9:28
  and teach them to provide certainty to the customer.
• 9:31
  And the customer may not like what they're providing them as far as, unfortunately, this is on backorder, supply chain, whatever it is.
• 9:39
  This is gonna be three months.
• 9:40
  I know you're used to two weeks.
• 9:42
  Here's what we can do.
• 9:44
  We can wait for that, or here's the closest.
• 9:48
  relatives to the product that you want that may fulfill you.
• 9:52
  Now you're trying to work with the customer, sometimes, we've all done it and we've all been guilty of it where marketing goes out and all of a people start calling and coming in
• 10:03
  about some promotion you have and the employees don't know about the promotion.
• 10:08
  Employees get mad and they should.
• 10:11
  Oh,
• 10:11
  we forgot to tell the employees that, you know, on February 1st, we were running, you know, this.
• 10:17
  So employees don't like to look stupid.
• 10:20
  And, you know, they're a big part of, you know, of who we have to educate and communicate with first.
• 10:26
  We talk a lot about service aptitude for frontline teams.
• 10:30
  In the academy, you and Dave emphasize that leaders need it just as much.
• 10:36
  So what does it look like when leaders truly serve the people who serve the customers instead of managing through control or command?
• 10:45
  Yeah, and reactive managing.
• 10:47
  So, you know, in the employee experience revolution book, we have a whole chapter on developing future and existing leaders.
• 10:56
  And the bold opening paragraph of that chapter is, I off the top of my head, can't remember if this, where we got this from Forbes or.
• 11:04
  you know, one of the Fortune magazines is that 82 % of existing managers are accidental managers.
• 11:12
  Meaning, you know, you got promoted, you know, because you had the most seniority of your department and the supervisor quit.
• 11:22
  So quick, you know, promote Denise.
• 11:24
  Hey, congratulations, Denise, because you're so awesome.
• 11:27
  We just promoted you.
• 11:28
  Well, really, you know, we had to promote someone and you're, you know, you're the most not green, I guess.
• 11:34
  And maybe Denise would be a wonderful leadership candidate, but we didn't prepare her.
• 11:39
  She went from Friday going out, happy hours with her coworkers, and then Monday she's leading them.
• 11:46
  And we didn't set her up and teach her and see if, you know,
• 11:50
  She wanted that, you know, some people, you know, might be like, hey, I think I want to go into leadership.
• 11:55
  And then next week, not so much, right?
• 11:57
  And so, you know, in a deal world, you want to, you know, offer that.
• 12:01
  I don't care.
• 12:02
  It could be a new employee orientation.
• 12:04
  If this is something, you know, raise your hand, let us know.
• 12:06
  We'll start putting you on committees and projects to see and start having you read books and take classes.
• 12:15
  And it might take you a year.
• 12:16
  It might take you two years, whatever.
• 12:18
  but now you're creating a minor league system.
• 12:21
  again, I don't think it's, in most cases, the manager's fault that they fail.
• 12:27
  It's if they were just thrown in there without any proper training.
• 12:31
  then we're, so Denise might've been a fantastic employee, high morale, very good at her job, but we promoted her without any training.
• 12:41
  And now,
• 12:42
  you know, two, three months into it, we're saying, Denise, your team is not performing.
• 12:47
  You know, you're not hitting your numbers.
• 12:49
  What's wrong with you?
• 12:50
  And, you know, all of a sudden now Denise doesn't like her job.
• 12:52
  She doesn't like morale.
• 12:54
  You know, she doesn't like the company.
• 12:56
  And, you know, that's all on, you know, top management.
• 12:59
  So it really starts with being, you know, excruciatingly picky and obsessive with who you're.
• 13:08
  you're putting them in.
• 13:09
  Then, you know, what's that training look like?
• 13:11
  Hopefully prior to the promotion is soft skill.
• 13:15
  things like care before coach.
• 13:17
  you know, instead of just taking someone aside and saying, listen, your, numbers have been dropping.
• 13:23
  You're not hitting your goals the past three months.
• 13:25
  We're going to write you up.
• 13:27
  you know, and one more time.
• 13:28
  And the next thing is, you know, whatever suspension, whatever.
• 13:33
  you know, the care is, Hey,
• 13:35
  You know, Jackie, everything okay.
• 13:37
  You know, you've been a rock star for nine years.
• 13:40
  Noticed late, you haven't been on your A game.
• 13:43
  Everything okay in your world?
• 13:44
  Is there anything happening here that, you know, what can we provide you?
• 13:48
  You know, if that person has a, you normally a good track record, right?
• 13:53
  You know, let's not jump to, you know, she just didn't wake up one day and.
• 13:56
  suck for no reason.
• 13:58
  Something happened.
• 13:59
  You know, I like that you talked about that, putting people on a growth track before they even ask for it, when they're first introduced to the company, when they're first
• 14:08
  onboarded.
• 14:10
  uh Because employees don't stay because a job is easy.
• 14:14
  They don't want a job where they wake up in the morning, it's the same thing day after day, and become complacent.
• 14:20
  They stay because they're growing.
• 14:22
  How do leaders create growth through coaching, feedback, development, even when promotions or pay increases aren't immediately available?
• 14:31
  Yeah, over 90 % of an employee's training at one company happens during their first six months.
• 14:38
  So you're about to celebrate your 30th anniversary with our companies.
• 14:44
  But if you think about whether you work 10 years at one company, five years, or 30 years, if you're at the typical company.
• 14:51
  That means 90 % of your professional development came in your first six months, and then 10 % happens over the course of the next five years, 10 years, 30 years.
• 15:01
  There's some statistics.
• 15:03
  According to LinkedIn research, 94 % of employees say they would have stayed at a company longer if it simply invested in them to learn.
• 15:11
  Nearly 25 % of Gen Zers and millennials say learning is the number one thing that makes them happy at work.
• 15:18
  And 27 % of Gen Zers and millennials say the number one reason they'd leave or they have left their job is because they did not have the opportunity to learn and grow.
• 15:28
  So employees like to...
• 15:30
  to be good at their job.
• 15:32
  they also, I always say like, you know, if you're building an employee's resume, right?
• 15:40
  I mean, you know, how many jobs have you had in 30 years at our company?
• 15:44
  Like you've worn every hat imaginable, right?
• 15:48
  So your resume is really powerful because you weren't just, you know, in one position for 30 years.
• 15:56
  and that's all you have to offer.
• 15:58
  you've had so many.
• 16:00
  if you're someone that wanted it, there was opportunities, do you wanna learn this?
• 16:04
  All let's train you on it.
• 16:05
  To me, we're building your resume.
• 16:08
  And to me, when you are building someone's resume, they're more likely to use the resume and take it to market.
• 16:15
  But if we're not building your resume, if you're not smarter today than you were yesterday,
• 16:20
  If you are, well, for not developing you, that's when you're going to get your resume out and go look for some place that will.
• 16:26
  And another thing is here's what I tell my three sons who are, you know, between 23 and 33 is when you're looking for a first job and not, you know, first couple of jobs, probably
• 16:40
  in your twenties and not every person can afford to do this.
• 16:45
  But I think
• 16:47
  The number one thing is mentorship more than pay.
• 16:50
  And again, my sons don't, when they're in their 20s, didn't have to take the highest paying job because of their circumstances.
• 16:59
  But if you can afford it in your 20s and you get in the right company with mentorship, access to really, really smart people, might be the CEO C.
• 17:10
  CEO, COO, you know, people that are going to mentor you, that will propel your career and future jobs better than that $5,000, you know, and we might be talking about, you know,
• 17:24
  hypothetically taking a job for $65,000 versus 60.
• 17:28
  Well, the mentorship by the right people will blow that $5,000 annual salary away in the long term.
• 17:36
  Do you think you realize that when you're in your 20s?
• 17:39
  No, but that's why I like to give, if you're listening or I like to give that advice because I didn't realize that.
• 17:49
  Yeah, yeah.
• 17:51
  And that's why one of my favorite things we've ever done is have all the mentors we've had, the mentees we've had over the years.
• 18:00
  Like that just is my most favorite thing to have someone young
• 18:04
  in college and so ambitious and just to be able to teach them so much about these critical skills that will, it's not the technical side, anyone I believe can teach the technical
• 18:20
  side, but it's all the other things.
• 18:22
  Yeah, and I think it does become part of building their resume because you're connecting with people, networking with people who you wouldn't have had the opportunity to have
• 18:31
  otherwise.
• 18:31
  Do you think it's a myth that helping to grow them, build their resumes, you said?
• 18:37
  would lead them to leave sooner because they're building their resume?
• 18:41
  Or do you think it, you know, we think that, but in actuality, we're helping them build their resume by growing and it's also what's keeping them.
• 18:50
  Yeah, yeah.
• 18:51
  You know, my experience is no, mean, you know, when people feel invested in, they're going to work harder and you're not giving them a reason to leave because there's growth and
• 19:02
  opportunities.
• 19:02
  One thing I love to ask when I have leaders in a room and leaders in a room typically, you know, have 10 to 30 years of experience, right, in this industry.
• 19:15
  And I say, by a show of hands, how many people here started off in the banking, in the restaurant, in the hair salon, whatever business we're talking about, you know, 15 to 30
• 19:27
  years ago, thinking that this was going to be a temporary transitional job.
• 19:31
  And it feels like everyone raises their hand, right?
• 19:35
  No one thought, you know, when they graduated from college and they took their first job at the bank or, you know,
• 19:40
  We have so many in the salons and maybe The DiJulius Group or restaurant business that this is what they're going be doing long.
• 19:49
  But they got with the right mentee mentor.
• 19:53
  They got with the right company.
• 19:55
  They found out that they could be the next Denise, who started 30 years ago in 1996 as an aesthetician.
• 20:06
  And today she's, you know, has
• 20:09
  you know, ownership and managing partner, you know, my God, that could be me.
• 20:14
  So it's the rags to riches story, you know, that I think even on the interview process, you start, you know, saying, listen, we're growing.
• 20:23
  And our future growth is from you, you know, people that, you know, aspire.
• 20:28
  Now, not everyone wants that and that's fine.
• 20:30
  You know, you can, you can stay at that position, but there is opportunity.
• 20:34
  um And so I think, you know, that's really, really important.
• 20:37
  One of your most consistent messages has always been the experience that the employees have internally becomes the experience customers receive externally.
• 20:48
  How do leaders underestimate that ripple effect, how their behavior affects both the culture and the customer experience?
• 20:56
  oh
• 20:58
  yeah, I don't know how they underestimate it.
• 21:01
  Someone didn't teach it to them or, I mean, you know, or they're the wrong people for leadership.
• 21:07
  But, know, that you can't understand how I treat someone is going to, you know, be the blueprint for how they treat people.
• 21:15
  Leader to leader, you know, leader to, you know, customer facing employee to customer, whatever that may be.
• 21:23
  So, you know, I love to use the example in one of our leadership exercises we do with companies is when we have leaders in the room, we'll give them all a printed out list of
• 21:35
  their direct reports.
• 21:37
  And then we ask them to fill out Ford on their direct reports.
• 21:41
  You know, so you might have 10 people that report to you.
• 21:43
  All right.
• 21:44
  What is Lindsay's family occupation, recreation and dreams?
• 21:47
  And people struggle with that.
• 21:49
  They know Lindsay has two kids.
• 21:51
  Think, is it two girls, two boys, don't know their names?
• 21:57
  That's someone that reports to you every day.
• 22:00
  How do you not know our husband's name or kids' names?
• 22:04
  We're not asking you to know all 150 employees, the ones that report to you.
• 22:09
  Recreation and dreams, that's...
• 22:11
  Oh, for occupation, know, at first people think they got, you know, an easy one because they work for me.
• 22:17
  No, no, you have to know what they want to be doing five years from now.
• 22:20
  What is Lindsay's goal?
• 22:21
  Five, maybe she wants your job.
• 22:24
  Great.
• 22:24
  We're going to help you get there.
• 22:26
  Or maybe Lindsay's, you know, is a graphic, you know, designer or want to be graphic designer and doesn't want to work here.
• 22:36
  She wants to be.
• 22:37
  you know, out in the design world.
• 22:40
  Okay, let's help you get there.
• 22:41
  You know, the resume, the skill set, the service aptitude skills, the relationship building, the empathy, all those are gonna help you, you know, look great.
• 22:52
  And when you're ready, let us know, because we know people, we can make introductions.
• 22:57
  And that story of helping someone get to the career they wanted, you know,
• 23:03
  should go viral internally, just like the Denise story of, you know, someone who started off at the lowest level and today is, you know, an owner, right?
• 23:13
  I mean, not everyone's going to retire from here someday, but man, whether it's three to five years, they're going to work their tail off for you if, you know, you care about them
• 23:24
  and helping them, you know, get to the right place.
• 23:27
  And they're going to do more marketing for you than, you know, any
• 23:30
  marketing campaign can for future employees and maybe clients and customers.
• 23:36
  So true, we've had some great part-time employees who worked with us while they were going to school and were great employees during that time.
• 23:44
  And yeah, and then they went on to maybe fulfill what they went to school for.
• 23:51
  Yeah.
• 23:52
  today.
• 23:52
  And he worked for us for at least a decade, right?
• 23:55
  Probably.
• 23:56
  It was a while.
• 23:57
  Yeah.
• 23:57
  ah
• 23:58
  When leaders focus only on compensation, they tend to miss the bigger picture.
• 24:03
  Pay matters, but it's rarely the deciding factor in whether someone stays or leaves.
• 24:07
  When employees feel respected, when they feel supported, they're challenged, they're consistently led, loyalty follows.
• 24:15
  And when loyalty exists internally, it shows up externally for the customers.
• 24:20
  John, what's the biggest mindset shift leaders need to make if they want to reduce turnover without defaulting to pay increases?
• 24:30
  Um, you know, it's a lot of what we talked about.
• 24:34
  it's really caring about the employees' well-being, setting them up for success, recognition.
• 24:42
  Um, 63 % of employees who are recognized regularly said they wouldn't consider looking for, uh, a new job.
• 24:51
  mean, you know, 63 % who are recognized regularly.
• 24:55
  Again,
• 24:56
  Other things have to be aligned.
• 24:59
  One of my favorite things, or when we meet parents or spouses of our employees, one of the compliments we get is the things we do for them that is kind of...
• 25:12
  more personal than professional.
• 25:14
  So I like to say train the whole person.
• 25:16
  And what I mean by that is not just how can we make that employee smarter at their job.
• 25:22
  That's critically important and more profitable, more efficient.
• 25:25
  But, you know, we say train the whole person.
• 25:28
  And so we call it the five F's.
• 25:31
  And the five F's have to do with
• 25:33
  They're the number one New Year's resolutions.
• 25:36
  Finances, fitness, family, faith, and fun.
• 25:40
  Okay?
• 25:40
  So what we try to do is we offer classes, book clubs, a professional is going to be zooming in on Tuesday at 6 p.m.
• 25:50
  to talk about how to buy your first house or how to manage your money or
• 25:55
  you know, how to, you know, lead a healthier lifestyle and, you know, lose the 10, 15 pounds and keep it off or, you know, how to be a better parent and anyone that wants to,
• 26:06
  you know, attend can, and we don't have to pay for these because, you know, when we bring in these professionals, while it can't be a sales presentation,
• 26:15
  listen, if you haven't bought a new house and you just met a mortgage lender who taught you how, what you're need to save for, what you're, you you're gonna use them.
• 26:25
  So, you know, when people recognize that you care about them, you know, outside of, you know, the four walls and what you can do for the business, I think that goes a lot
• 26:36
  further.
• 26:37
  For those of you that are out there listening and thinking our leaders need to be more consistent more connected more intentional
• 26:44
  That's exactly what the Customer Experience Executive Academy is designed to help you develop.
• 26:51
  The CXEA, as we call it, is a year-long leadership experience where leaders learn how to build world-class customer and employee experiences through clarity, consistency,
• 27:02
  service-based leadership, and coaching.
• 27:05
  They leave with the confidence, tools, and accountability to lead culture, not just manage people.
• 27:12
  If you want to retain great employees and develop leaders your people want to follow, enroll your team in CXEA You can find it at thedjuliusgroup.com or schedule a call at
• 27:24
  tdg.click forward slash call.
• 27:29
  What do leaders misunderstand most about why employees leave?
• 27:34
  Oh yeah, it's kind of like the crutch we use why we lose customers because they got it cheaper somewhere else.
• 27:41
  They're getting paid more uh somewhere else, that's why we lost them.
• 27:47
  What kind of relationship did you have with them?
• 27:49
  If people aren't giving you the opportunity, if they're just quitting, then you don't have that relationship.
• 27:55
  with them.
• 27:56
  So it just goes back to really caring for them as a human being.
• 27:59
  maybe you haven't told them what their potential is and their future could be, provided that it's genuine and you're just not saying that to keep them.
• 28:08
  Is this where you see leaders blaming pay for problems that are leadership issues?
• 28:13
  Yeah, theirs.
• 28:14
  Absolutely.
• 28:15
  And then if you're middle management, sometimes it's not yours, it's upper management, you know, that they aren't, you know, providing, but you have to go back to bat for your
• 28:24
  employees and, you know, they have to know that you're going to bat for them.
• 28:28
  What leadership behavior do you think has the fastest impact on retention?
• 28:34
  Either positive or negative.
• 28:35
  I think caring.
• 28:36
  think getting to know someone.
• 28:38
  think showing vulnerability is huge.
• 28:40
  Demonstrating, listen, you I know you're struggling right now.
• 28:44
  It's overwhelming.
• 28:45
  You're newer or you're just, you know, a new position.
• 28:48
  You know, when I started, you know, I screwed up and almost got fired.
• 28:52
  I know what it's like.
• 28:53
  you know, or whatever that may look like.
• 28:56
  I've had, you know, if someone's suffering from mental health or relationship issues at home or parenting, and, you you might have two in that category.
• 29:06
  Letting them know that, you know, yeah, we had something similar, we're going through something similar.
• 29:12
  I think humanizing leadership is really important.
• 29:16
  What advice do you have or small action that a leader can take right away that would help strengthen employees' trust?
• 29:26
  Knowing their Ford, finding out what their five-year plan is, making sure.
• 29:31
  That's going to be a little harder if they don't have total trust that they can tell you that they don't want to be here in five years.
• 29:40
  Not because the company sucks, just because that's not their long-term goal.
• 29:45
  So you have to, know, hopefully have the stories to tell before they answer.
• 29:50
  of listen, know, it could be, you know, doing what you're doing, could be having my job or it could be like a David who wanted to eventually open his own business and it didn't
• 30:01
  compete with us, but it was, you know, a marketing company, you know, giving them the, you know, the, faith and trust that they could be open and honest.
• 30:10
  But I think just, you know, caring, um one of, you know, our favorite best practices that
• 30:15
  our clients have done is when you engage their family, that's really important.
• 30:19
  When you celebrate with their family what their spouse or father or mother did and thank the family for the sacrifice they make.
• 30:30
  I say this all the time.
• 30:31
  think a competitor
• 30:33
  to stealing our employee or a reason why an employee would quit is your family.
• 30:39
  If Ken doesn't like the DeJulius group because you're never around and you're stressed out and you're, you know, whatever, and he's always, you know, taking care of everything
• 30:50
  because you're not around, you know, he's not going to have good things to say.
• 30:54
  And he's going to be out there recruiting for you and say, Hey, Denise, I met someone that, you know, pays a little more and you won't have to deal with that.
• 31:03
  Right.
• 31:03
  So.
• 31:04
  And there is going to be times, right, in all businesses, they have peak season and you're going to have to ask more.
• 31:10
  But why can't we thank the family for the sacrifices they make and have the family be your biggest cheerleader versus your biggest detractor?
• 31:20
  Yeah, I think that's He's so busy with working seventy hours, he has no idea.
• 31:31
  Alright, good.
• 31:31
  is he should be more worried about how I'm feeling about him working seven days a week.
• 31:37
  oh Why does, we talked about inconsistency a little bit at the beginning of this, why does that exhaust employees faster than leaders realize?
• 31:48
  Wait, what?
• 31:49
  inconsistency,
• 31:51
  Give me an example.
• 31:52
  What's that look like?
• 31:52
  What kind of inconsistency?
• 31:54
  um inconsistency internally you know with one leader to another leader
• 32:03
  yeah, I mean, now you got leadership roulette or leader roulette.
• 32:08
  And yeah, and that sucks.
• 32:10
  if you're, know, if an employee's morale and want to stay with a company is depending on which leader they get, that's very fragile because eventually
• 32:23
  you know, that leader is going to get promoted, moved out, or move on.
• 32:28
  And just like employee reliance, have to have a leader.
• 32:31
  That's why if they're not accidental managers or accidental bosses, and they're all put through the same training and filtered, and we recognize that someone doesn't have the
• 32:42
  leadership qualities we want because they only care about outcomes and technical, but they're...
• 32:47
  They don't care about the employee and they don't care about how they deliver the message.
• 32:50
  You know, now you have, you know, less leadership roulette, less care and coaching.
• 32:56
  It's also like I've had leaders complain to me about the employees, you know, they have.
• 33:04
  And, you know, there is, you know, there could be some truth to that.
• 33:07
  But I also say, you know, if
• 33:09
  If you need rock stars at every level to be successful, I really wouldn't need you.
• 33:16
  Like, what do we need a leader for if we had a bunch of Lindsay's or Claudia's or Dave's?
• 33:25
  If we were lucky to have a bunch of them or Sandy's in our other business, you know, or whoever.
• 33:31
  But it's very hard to find those.
• 33:35
  And it does take time to grow them.
• 33:38
  And you'll always have misses and you'll always, you know, if you're big enough, you're not going to have everyone that's drinking the Kool-Aid and, you know, wakes up and wants
• 33:47
  to come in.
• 33:47
  But it's that leader's job to help them get there, help them, you know, not to be a liability.
• 33:54
  And so, you know, leaders have to understand that.
• 33:57
  their biggest part of their job is to cultivate people and not just say, aren't you giving me better people?
• 34:03
  I, you you talked about the leadership roulette there.
• 34:06
  And, I know someone recently who was in a situation that they were looking to interview in within the same company they were at, but just because they wanted a different leader.
• 34:17
  They loved the company.
• 34:18
  They love what the company stood for, what they did, but wanted to get under different leadership.
• 34:23
  And unfortunately, when they couldn't get under different leadership, they ended up leaving the company.
• 34:28
  Yeah.
• 34:28
  Yeah.
• 34:29
  But.
• 34:30
  leadership can be a death sentence.
• 34:33
  It could feel like you're in jail.
• 34:35
  I mean, it wasn't necessarily bad leadership.
• 34:37
  I didn't like my job at UPS.
• 34:39
  And every day I drove to work and said in 29 more years and three months and two days I could retire.
• 34:44
  And I wanted to get old as fast as I could.
• 34:47
  Like who wants, you know, that shouldn't be a goal is to grow old, you know, as fast as you can.
• 34:53
  Yeah, that's a bad one.
• 34:56
  It happens fast enough.
• 34:59
  We also talked about leadership development.
• 35:02
  How do you see that directly impacting reducing turnover?
• 35:07
  Well, yeah, so it's it's it's it's it's developing them.
• 35:10
  It's giving them carrots.
• 35:12
  It's setting them up for success.
• 35:14
  It's also setting them up for reality.
• 35:17
  And, you know, it's just that we're just not going off the, you know, roller coaster of today.
• 35:22
  You know, I want I want more and promote you.
• 35:25
  And that really isn't what you wanted.
• 35:27
  So we give you, you know, the opportunity to.
• 35:30
  All right, let's.
• 35:31
  throw him or her on a project and see how they respond.
• 35:34
  Do they do it?
• 35:35
  Do they not do it?
• 35:36
  Is it like pulling teeth?
• 35:37
  You know, then both parties can, you know, move on from there and realize, yeah, leadership isn't for me.
• 35:44
  I thought it was, but I didn't realize all that was entailed or, you know, they're doing well with it and growing.
• 35:53
  And so we give them more and more.
• 35:54
  you know, leadership shouldn't be about
• 35:57
  getting a title, right?
• 35:58
  You should be that person.
• 36:00
  And then when they get promoted, people should, I thought you always were a leader, you know, just because of the way, you you behave and model your behavior.
• 36:10
  It's too bad there isn't, I don't know, something on a resume for that when I think of...
• 36:14
  requirements for a position and you know they want somebody who has been I don't know a director of something before a VP of something before but that doesn't make someone a
• 36:26
  leader just because they have that title.
• 36:28
  It's not necessarily the qualities a company is looking for.
• 36:33
  Right, so what are you saying is missing?
• 36:36
  that how do you define the skill of a leader on a resume?
• 36:41
  What does that look like?
• 36:42
  I've never looked at a resume in my life.
• 36:45
  I haven't.
• 36:46
  mean, you know, A, they go through people and I'm assuming you're doing that, but I don't care about their resume.
• 36:53
  I just want to have a conversation and see, you know, what they're made of and if they're enthusiastic and passionate and what they know about us and our vision.
• 37:04
  And if they've taken the time to learn.
• 37:06
  or they're just looking for a job.
• 37:08
  We talked about culture outperforming compensation.
• 37:11
  Do you think that holds true in the long run?
• 37:13
  And why?
• 37:14
  It all depends.
• 37:16
  The more technical a position is, the more likely they're going to be recruited and offered better pay.
• 37:23
  And so we've got to make sure it's fair and it's uh market value.
• 37:28
  And in some cases, when you pay people better,
• 37:32
  then they can get anywhere else.
• 37:33
  mean, then it's one less thing you have to worry about if you can afford it.
• 37:37
  Now, in the early days of a startup, you can't afford it.
• 37:41
  you, know, and Eric and so many people are living proof of that, that, you know, I think you were underpaid for, for a while.
• 37:50
  Now, because we, you know, when we were a startup, I would choose to go for
• 37:55
  the loyalty and buy-in of our vision over talent, if you will.
• 38:01
  You know, because I couldn't afford to go out and hire someone with 20 years of experience, but I could groom someone so it was going to be cheaper, more affordable for
• 38:09
  like a startup on bootstraps.
• 38:11
  But then as you start having that success and
• 38:15
  you you got to be able to offer them something.
• 38:17
  you know, that's where, you know, stock, you know, equity can bridge the gap for a while.
• 38:25
  But I think it makes it, what did you call it?
• 38:29
  Culture?
• 38:30
  What did you call it?
• 38:31
  The two things.
• 38:32
  culture with a...
• 38:35
  called it?
• 38:35
  I don't know.
• 38:36
  But yeah, I think it makes it less, but it doesn't make it irrelevant.
• 38:41
  You know, we still found a way in the beginning when it was, when you were say a startup to educate people and to grow people without, without much money.
• 38:51
  And people were so invested in not just.
• 38:56
  what they were learning, but your vision.
• 38:59
  I think there's something to be said for that too, especially when it's a startup, it's a smaller organization.
• 39:05
  I think the vision of a leader can keep people.
• 39:08
  Yeah, there's a great article, it's probably 20 years old, but it still applies.
• 39:13
  The soul of a startup in the Harvard Business Review, and I always go back to it, I wrote about it and referenced it in the Employee Experience Revolution, and it's about, everyone
• 39:23
  says this, you've experienced it, is this company 10 years into it isn't the same as it was.
• 39:31
  when we started.
• 39:32
  Because when you start, know, if you're, if you're part of that initial group, the first couple of years, know, bootstraps, eating pizza on the floor, trying to figure out if we
• 39:43
  can keep the doors open.
• 39:44
  How do we compete with no money?
• 39:46
  How do we do it?
• 39:47
  And, you know, and, and sometimes your employees are driving nicer cars than you are.
• 39:52
  And know, like you said, they, it's us against the world.
• 39:55
  Now you fast track, you have some success, you have some growth.
• 39:59
  And rightfully so, the entrepreneur leaders are now in different roles.
• 40:06
  And the new employees don't know them.
• 40:08
  And they just think, you know, it came easy and there's no, they wouldn't cut off their right arm to keep the business going.
• 40:16
  And that's every business goes through it.
• 40:18
  And so, how do you avoid it?
• 40:20
  You can't necessarily avoid it.
• 40:22
  can't have Jeff Bezos and Howard Schultz and Walt Disney, you know, knowing that, you know, now 10,000 or 50,000, but you have to replace them with people who feel the way you
• 40:37
  did and can, and then they become, you know, I, you know, I want to walk through a fire for Denise and Eric and Kristen and
• 40:46
  you know, all that.
• 40:47
  That's hard.
• 40:48
  mean, that's so hard.
• 40:49
  And, you know, every business goes through that kind of growing pains.
• 40:53
  Yeah, so that passion has to continue to trickle down.
• 40:57
  Yeah, and you have to replace people with that same kind of, you know, passion for the vision and rallying the troops and the, you can't lose that underdog mentality.
• 41:10
  You know, it's kind if you go to work for Amazon, you know, are you going to feel like they're an underdog now?
• 41:15
  You know, you're not going to get to know Jeff Bezos ever and feel bad that, you know,
• 41:24
  ramifications on it, you know, if we didn't hit our numbers and, you know, he can't buy that fifth yacht.
• 41:29
  Right?
• 41:30
  How does that feel working for, you know, someone in that kind of position with billions?
• 41:37
  That's why it's the person you're working for.
• 41:39
  Not Jeff Bezos, but your immediate leader.
• 41:44
  Yeah.
• 41:44
  So, John, what's an action that a leader can take this week that helps her?
• 41:50
  a, your direct reports and see how well you know they're forward.
• 41:53
  Family, occupation, recreation and dreams.
• 41:56
  I love asking new employees, know, the question we ask in our workshop, what's a brand you can't live without?
• 42:02
  Now, you know, leaders brands could be a Ritz Carlton or, you know, a Lululemon.
• 42:09
  and employees could be a totally different answer, right?
• 42:13
  Cause they might be 21 or 23.
• 42:17
  But when it's cool at orientation or their personnel file to have them put that down and then they forget and then you wanna recognize them for employee of the month or their
• 42:27
  first anniversary or whatever you wanna recognize them.
• 42:30
  instead of giving everyone a $25 Starbucks card, you may hate Starbucks.
• 42:37
  or you may, you know, that might not be a choice.
• 42:38
  But if I know that you like caribou coffee or Amazon or Target, you know, now I can, you know, give you a, you know, 25 or $50 card that's directly related to what you like, or to
• 42:53
  ask a Lindsay how Mackenzie and Landon are doing and Ron and, know, is it basketball season for Mackenzie?
• 43:02
  You know, I mean, you know, that, you know,
• 43:04
  goes a long way, that's knowing they're Ford.
• 43:07
  And then they're gonna do that for their customer.
• 43:12
  Love it.
• 43:12
  All right, listeners, if you're ready to build leaders, your employees, trust, and a culture that keeps your best people, enroll in the Customer Experience Executive Academy.
• 43:22
  Find out more by scheduling a call at tdg.click forward slash call.
• 43:29
  Thanks, John, and listeners, we'll see you next week.
• 43:32
  Thank you.