Latest / Under the Docs / 2025 Cover-Up: The Reporter They Want SILENCED (Seymour Hersh Story)

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2025 Cover-Up: The Reporter They Want SILENCED (Seymour Hersh Story) · Under the Docs

0:00
Speaker 1: Did you shoot a baby? He's like, yep, yeah, shot
0:02
Speaker 1: a baby.
0:10
Speaker 2: Under the dogs.
0:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, under the dogs.
0:14
Speaker 4: Very we're breaking looks fun.
0:18
Speaker 2: Did you could they rise the shots? They conning the dogs?
0:23
Speaker 3: Under the docks, underon the dogs, Yeah, under the docks,
0:41
Speaker 3: under the dogs.
0:54
Speaker 2: Ohoy mabies.
0:55
Speaker 5: This is under the Docks with Paranoid American and Uncle
0:57
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1:01
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1:11
Speaker 5: and don't forget to like, subscribe and share, share, share
1:14
Speaker 5: the show.
1:15
Speaker 1: And this is gonna be a fun one. I think
1:16
Speaker 1: this one's about tropical drinks called My Ties. You like
1:21
Speaker 1: my Ties, right?
1:22
Speaker 4: Oh?
1:22
Speaker 1: I love them all right, let's PLoP the course on
1:34
Speaker 1: this one. The name of this documentary is called Cover Up.
1:37
Speaker 1: It's twenty twenty five. It was directed by Laura Poitrous
1:40
Speaker 1: and Mark Obenhaus, and it explores the background of a
1:45
Speaker 1: investigative journalist named Simour hersh So he's got Pulitzer prizes,
1:50
Speaker 1: He's got all sorts of accolades. One of his big
1:53
Speaker 1: claims the fame and the main focus of this documentary
1:57
Speaker 1: among a few others, was that he's a journalist that
2:00
Speaker 1: covered the my Lie Massacre. I must have misread the
2:03
Speaker 1: show notes. I saw my tie. I was like, this
2:05
Speaker 1: is going to be a fun one. Apparently it's not
2:07
Speaker 1: going to be as fun. So there was a my
2:09
Speaker 1: Lie massacre, which was actually a collection of massacres, which
2:13
Speaker 1: were the largest amount of civilians massacred by US troops
2:19
Speaker 1: in the entire twentieth century. So let's talk about some
2:23
Speaker 1: fun my Lie massacre stuff.
2:25
Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess we miss interpret of the notes. I
2:27
Speaker 5: was a little smudge right from the drink from our
2:30
Speaker 5: my ties that may have spilled on this. But yeah,
2:33
Speaker 5: they kind of uncovered where he kind of breaks down
2:35
Speaker 5: how he got some information. The one thing I will
2:38
Speaker 5: say about this film, and it starts out with this
2:40
Speaker 5: specific my Lie massacre, is where it's like, oh, you
2:45
Speaker 5: can see the benefits of journalism and how journalism works,
2:49
Speaker 5: and like it's very quirky. It's not like you're you
2:53
Speaker 5: kind of get lucky, right. You find a source that
2:56
Speaker 5: someone tells you something, and then you investigate that source,
2:58
Speaker 5: and there's a lot of people that are willing to
3:00
Speaker 5: talk to you. I think you mentioned it before when
3:02
Speaker 5: we talked about like hackers. How we're saying, like people
3:05
Speaker 5: misconskew what hackers do and you're like, yeah, well, nowadays,
3:08
Speaker 5: hacking is basically just getting information from people any way
3:12
Speaker 5: you can, whether it's over the phone talking to them
3:14
Speaker 5: or like getting into their email, but the best way
3:17
Speaker 5: to get their password is usually talking to somebody. And
3:20
Speaker 5: I think that's the same thing that could be said
3:21
Speaker 5: with journalism that he kind of gets. You know, there's
3:25
Speaker 5: a guy that he goes like, oh, he's locked up,
3:27
Speaker 5: and he's like, hey, let me go interview him. And
3:29
Speaker 5: he's like, yeah, they call my my sergeant, he told
3:32
Speaker 5: me to do it. He calls the guy and he's like,
3:34
Speaker 5: I don't know what he's talking about. That guy's crazy, bro.
3:36
Speaker 5: And then he's like I saw his face where he's like, oh,
3:40
Speaker 5: I'm the fall guy, and like everything changed and that
3:44
Speaker 5: how this He even mentions that he kind of accidentally
3:47
Speaker 5: in the beginning gets into journalism, right, it's kind of
3:50
Speaker 5: fake for him. You know, his dad doesn't want him
3:52
Speaker 5: to go to college. They talk about his upbringing and
3:55
Speaker 5: he's like, you got to run the store man, you
3:57
Speaker 5: know how to do with your brother.
3:58
Speaker 2: He's more of a college guy.
3:59
Speaker 5: You're you're running the store, And that it was fate
4:02
Speaker 5: for him to be in journalism, that he never was
4:04
Speaker 5: supposed to, and that's kind of how it unfolds through
4:07
Speaker 5: each story that he's telling.
4:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, he describes it. It reminds me of like a
4:12
Speaker 1: Mister Magoo sort of dynamic where you're just kind of
4:15
Speaker 1: like bumbling around and falling upward essentially, And the premise
4:22
Speaker 1: of this entire documentary cover up is about his life's work, right,
4:26
Speaker 1: So they talk about him as a kid and he
4:28
Speaker 1: went to college even though his parents didn't want him to.
4:30
Speaker 1: They want Tom run the company store and all this,
4:33
Speaker 1: and that eventually he just kind of falls into this
4:37
Speaker 1: path of being a journalist and ends up writing some
4:40
Speaker 1: of the most influential cases ever, like these big expose
4:45
Speaker 1: A's and that his particular line of work in investigative
4:48
Speaker 1: journalism is things that the state is doing wrong. And
4:52
Speaker 1: just to point out too, that the one of the
4:54
Speaker 1: directors here, Laura Poittross. She also directed Citizen for which
4:58
Speaker 1: is a similar thing about Edward Snow, and then she
5:01
Speaker 1: also wrote one about Sackler family. So both Seymour Hirsch
5:06
Speaker 1: in the world of newsprint media and Laura Poetress in
5:10
Speaker 1: the world of like making documentaries, they both kind of
5:13
Speaker 1: have this trend. This is sort of their niche is
5:16
Speaker 1: to do these big cover up expose a's on what
5:19
Speaker 1: the government's doing. So props on that one. This one, again,
5:23
Speaker 1: it focused almost entirely for the large first portion of
5:27
Speaker 1: it on the Myli massacre. So if you're not familiar
5:30
Speaker 1: with the Myli massacre, this is some claims of over
5:33
Speaker 1: three hundred, some claims of over five hundred, but that
5:37
Speaker 1: over five hundred civilians were massacred by US Army, that
5:41
Speaker 1: it's the largest confirmed massacre of civilians in the twentieth
5:44
Speaker 1: century by US troops, and that it was perpetrated by
5:49
Speaker 1: a couple different companies. So this is one of the
5:51
Speaker 1: ones that stood out to me is that even though
5:53
Speaker 1: it's called the Myli massacre, that alone is a whitewashing.
5:57
Speaker 1: That's sort of a euphemism because it's should have been
6:00
Speaker 1: called like the multiple my Lii massacres that all happened
6:03
Speaker 1: on the same day by multiple companies throughout the US Army.
6:08
Speaker 1: So write that alone, I had no idea. I've heard
6:11
Speaker 1: about the Myli masker, I didn't realize it was more
6:13
Speaker 1: than just one place and more than just one group
6:15
Speaker 1: of people. So the first group that usually gets referenced
6:19
Speaker 1: was C company head. We're headed by Captain Ernest Medina,
6:24
Speaker 1: and he basically enters They just number these different villages
6:28
Speaker 1: in my life. So he enters a village of my
6:30
Speaker 1: life four and they're looking for the viet Cong, specifically,
6:35
Speaker 1: like the forty eighth Battalion of Viet Cong. They don't
6:37
Speaker 1: find them anywhere in this in this little village or
6:40
Speaker 1: in any other village. But instead of just turning around
6:44
Speaker 1: and looking, I guess they get frustrated. They start demanding,
6:46
Speaker 1: you know where the viet Cong. Nobody's giving them up
6:50
Speaker 1: or nobody knows what's going on because they just live
6:52
Speaker 1: in this village. So the soldiers round up everyone in
6:56
Speaker 1: the village, which is mostly women, children, and elderly men,
7:00
Speaker 1: because all of the able bodied military age men are
7:03
Speaker 1: actually probably off doing military stuff, just not here. So
7:07
Speaker 1: the US soldiers round everyone up and they just kill
7:10
Speaker 1: them all in various ways and do way worse things
7:13
Speaker 1: than just killing them. I'll lead it to your imagination,
7:16
Speaker 1: but imagine like Universal Soldier the worst possible part where
7:21
Speaker 1: the guy comes out with the necklace full of ears
7:23
Speaker 1: and he's probably done even worse things than that. It's
7:26
Speaker 1: it's that level. This is what we're talking about. That's
7:28
Speaker 1: probably the inspiration for that scene in Universal Soldier was
7:33
Speaker 1: at the level of this mylie massacre.
7:35
Speaker 5: And then that they just like you said, they not
7:37
Speaker 5: only made it to seem like one event, they go
7:41
Speaker 5: further and say the officers that were involved, and they
7:43
Speaker 5: kind of like they try to break down how the
7:46
Speaker 5: official military courts go and then like you know, people
7:49
Speaker 5: obviously denying it, like oh, we didn't really what like
7:52
Speaker 5: that was going crazy?
7:55
Speaker 1: When did that happen? Let me look into this, right,
7:59
Speaker 1: I'm gonna run this one of the shain I'm gonna
8:01
Speaker 1: ask my boss about this someone.
8:02
Speaker 2: It seems like it got really lost for a while.
8:04
Speaker 5: And then Seymour, to his credit, seems to be the
8:09
Speaker 5: thorn in their side to kind of force not that
8:12
Speaker 5: anything crazy happen, right, Like they kind of got to
8:15
Speaker 5: slap on the wrist. It seems like they're like they
8:17
Speaker 5: didn't get in trouble. What you think, right, there's no
8:21
Speaker 5: war crime like that's what his his stick is too, right,
8:25
Speaker 5: kind of like pointing out war crimes and like specifically
8:28
Speaker 5: in America. Though I will say that is one note
8:30
Speaker 5: I've noticed that he's like specifically only goes after America
8:34
Speaker 5: like he does. He makes it seem sometimes that like, oh,
8:36
Speaker 5: the other countries are good, bro Like, it's just America, man,
8:39
Speaker 5: and like I think it's war bro like.
8:41
Speaker 2: But that's that's a different thought.
8:44
Speaker 1: Well, that that's his knees. Yeah, one hundred percent. His
8:46
Speaker 1: niches the state and power perpetrating things against like civilians
8:53
Speaker 1: or weaker people. That's that's his stick. And that's the
8:56
Speaker 1: angle that usually takes a lot of this and that's
8:58
Speaker 1: some of the criticism. You don't well, just to point out,
9:01
Speaker 1: you do not get very much criticism from people outside
9:06
Speaker 1: of Seymour Hirsch in this documentary. It's it's really like
9:08
Speaker 1: a day in the life or here's a life of
9:11
Speaker 1: Seymour Hirsh and here's how he's like now, and here's
9:13
Speaker 1: the way that he thinks, and here's how he manages
9:16
Speaker 1: the relationships. It's not here's an entire profile on the
9:19
Speaker 1: man from an objective point of view. So on this
9:22
Speaker 1: myline massacre. To finish up some of the notes on
9:26
Speaker 1: this one. He was the thorn in the side. He
9:28
Speaker 1: was the one guy in the media. And he even
9:30
Speaker 1: mentioned that he would start going to some of these
9:33
Speaker 1: official White House and Washington press conferences and he would
9:38
Speaker 1: see a top you know, New York Times reporter, sit
9:42
Speaker 1: down and get a story told to him, and then
9:45
Speaker 1: the next day read verbatim like the exact thing that
9:48
Speaker 1: the state told a reporter that's the article. And he
9:51
Speaker 1: said it was blowing his mind. It was like, Oh,
9:53
Speaker 1: he didn't realize how much power that the politicians had
9:56
Speaker 1: in the news media, where they're just like, here's the
9:59
Speaker 1: article I've already written for you, just publish it and
10:01
Speaker 1: put your name on it. And that was happening. So
10:03
Speaker 1: he either made a conscious decision or always from the
10:07
Speaker 1: start never thought like that. He was never like, I'm
10:09
Speaker 1: not going to take your word for this. You're probably
10:11
Speaker 1: lying to me, right. So that's part of what made
10:14
Speaker 1: him unique in his own way, and that this led
10:18
Speaker 1: to originally the Myli massacre again, the multiple Mylie massaccurs,
10:24
Speaker 1: where like over five hundred people were likely murdered. Again,
10:28
Speaker 1: none of these were military aged men. It was literally children, women,
10:32
Speaker 1: and old people. That was the only people that essentially
10:34
Speaker 1: died in these massacres. That it was originally reported in
10:39
Speaker 1: the media and across the military and everywhere as a victory.
10:43
Speaker 1: It was like they went out there, they took out
10:45
Speaker 1: these Viet Con troops. You know, let more Viet Cong
10:49
Speaker 1: are dying than Americans are dying, therefore we're winning this war.
10:52
Speaker 1: That was sort of like the paraphrase quote that you
10:54
Speaker 1: see them reporting like in the actual news media, and
10:57
Speaker 1: then it slowly comes out like okay, except for this
11:00
Speaker 1: one thing, and that one thing ends up getting pinned
11:04
Speaker 1: on twenty six different army soldiers, but only one person
11:10
Speaker 1: out of the twenty six that he gets pinned on.
11:12
Speaker 1: One person, Lieutenant William Cally Junior. He's the leader of
11:17
Speaker 1: the first platoon and sea company that was in that
11:19
Speaker 1: one town, not the one next to it, which was
11:22
Speaker 1: b company, but only in the first town. He's the
11:25
Speaker 1: only one that is convicted. He's found guilty of murdering
11:29
Speaker 1: twenty two villagers out of the five hundred plus that
11:32
Speaker 1: died that day, twenty two, and he's given a life sentence,
11:36
Speaker 1: but he ends up serving three and a half years
11:39
Speaker 1: under house arrest, and then after that the entire sentence
11:42
Speaker 1: is commuted. So this guy who gets the entire thing,
11:46
Speaker 1: the multiple massacres pinned on this one guy and then
11:50
Speaker 1: he ends up doing three and a half years on
11:53
Speaker 1: house arrest and then that's it. And I believe I
11:56
Speaker 1: found that he lived and retired and died in Florida
12:00
Speaker 1: the age of ninety something or like eighty eighth or something.
12:02
Speaker 1: So this is the one guy that gets pinned on
12:06
Speaker 1: all the my life massacres. And even he doesn't spend
12:09
Speaker 1: any time in jail, he just goes on house arrass
12:12
Speaker 1: until I guess the news media reports die out a
12:15
Speaker 1: little bit, and then he's able to rejoin society.
12:18
Speaker 5: And isn't that the same guy that they also were
12:20
Speaker 5: rallying behind, right, didn't they have like a campaign where
12:22
Speaker 5: they're playing a record of like free him, And then
12:25
Speaker 5: the towns were all like amp. They were like we're
12:28
Speaker 5: pressing these records like crazy, and like they really had
12:31
Speaker 5: the propaganda strong. Well, the Americanism and nationalism is strong
12:35
Speaker 5: propaganda because people are like, you know, he's just doing
12:38
Speaker 5: his job, man, Like he's just getting those vietcongs. And
12:41
Speaker 5: you could tell that these people haven't like researched anything.
12:44
Speaker 5: And I will add as part of the element, it
12:46
Speaker 5: starts here two things happen here from this my leg massacre,
12:51
Speaker 5: Seymour realized, he's like, oh, this happens quite a bit,
12:55
Speaker 5: Like this is not a one off. And then the
12:57
Speaker 5: other thing you start to notice is that there's this
12:59
Speaker 5: side that the patriotic side is like we hate Seymour,
13:03
Speaker 5: like he's he's he should be deported, he should be murdered.
13:07
Speaker 5: Whatever they think. They don't think positively around Seymour.
13:10
Speaker 2: Hirsh well.
13:11
Speaker 1: And it's easy to see that dynamic because part of
13:14
Speaker 1: it is you got all these hippies and anti war
13:18
Speaker 1: activists that are running around without shirts on, and they
13:21
Speaker 1: stink and they're smoking weed in the streets, right. So
13:24
Speaker 1: then when something comes out Seymour, Hirsch comes out and
13:27
Speaker 1: he's like, hey, like some of these hippies are kind
13:30
Speaker 1: of right, man, this like war machine just killing babies
13:32
Speaker 1: out there, right and so, and this is the craziest
13:36
Speaker 1: part is they actually get the guy that is getting
13:39
Speaker 1: charged with all this, that was involved in the my
13:42
Speaker 1: Line massacre on TV for an interview, and in the interview,
13:46
Speaker 1: the guys, I mean he's given every opportunity to lie.
13:49
Speaker 1: The guy's not lying, and I think he's just in
13:52
Speaker 1: shell shock or whatever. But the interviewer is like, so,
13:57
Speaker 1: you know, so no men, right, it's all basically men.
14:00
Speaker 1: It was just all women and children and older people.
14:03
Speaker 4: Right.
14:03
Speaker 1: He's like yep. He's like were there babies? Like yep.
14:07
Speaker 1: He's like did you shoot a baby? He's like yep, yeah,
14:09
Speaker 1: shout a baby. And the guy's like, how, like, how
14:12
Speaker 1: do you find yourself doing that? I'm paraphrasing a little bit.
14:15
Speaker 1: It's like, like, how do you find yourself shooting a baby?
14:18
Speaker 5: Like?
14:18
Speaker 6: What?
14:19
Speaker 1: How does that happen? He's like, you know, it's just
14:21
Speaker 1: one of those things. And then it shows all of
14:23
Speaker 1: the newspaper clippings like US soldier, you know, convicted of massacre. Quote.
14:29
Speaker 1: It's just one of those things, right. So when those
14:32
Speaker 1: articles start coming out, all of the hardcore patriots are like,
14:36
Speaker 1: oh man, the media is turning into these hippie liberals
14:38
Speaker 1: and they're they're against the you know, the state, and
14:41
Speaker 1: therefore everything they're doing is bad. And you can kind
14:44
Speaker 1: of see Seymour hersh in the middle of that, where
14:47
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, maybe I am a commie pinko,
14:50
Speaker 1: but also these dudes like literally murdered babies and women,
14:54
Speaker 1: you know, like and for no reason, they just killed civilians,
14:57
Speaker 1: So isn't that wrong? And then people were like, you know,
15:00
Speaker 1: down with seymour Hers, you just ate America.
15:04
Speaker 2: That that was the funny aspect of it.
15:06
Speaker 5: Because it's each thing that he breaks up, it's like
15:10
Speaker 5: he he is coming up and with facts, right like
15:13
Speaker 5: he's he's like, well, this is real information because they're
15:16
Speaker 5: like they point to I don't want to get too
15:19
Speaker 5: deep into the weeds, but I know. Then they start
15:20
Speaker 5: going to like the Cambodian bombings, right they talk about
15:23
Speaker 5: how like this isn't in a one off, and he
15:25
Speaker 5: starts going down this journey of government cover ups, which
15:30
Speaker 5: leads him to some of the white the Watergate stuff. Right, Like,
15:34
Speaker 5: he gets into like the Watergate stuff where he's like
15:39
Speaker 5: showing the this Watergate is the one proof actually, like
15:42
Speaker 5: even in cass Sunstein where he writes his paper Cognitive Infiltration,
15:48
Speaker 5: he goes, yeah, conspiracy theories are bad, but even though
15:52
Speaker 5: like that one conspiracy, Watergate was real. And then that's
15:55
Speaker 5: where like you see the catalysts of like things to change.
15:58
Speaker 5: But I just thought it was interesting how they follow
16:01
Speaker 5: his life and they go, oh, this is really where
16:03
Speaker 5: the meat and potatoes comes in. Is that he started
16:05
Speaker 5: with a myline massacre, which got him on this whole journey.
16:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, it goes first he works on myline massacre, then
16:12
Speaker 1: he starts working on the secret US bombing of Cambodia.
16:16
Speaker 1: Then they talk about the CIA domestic spying program under
16:20
Speaker 1: Nixon era, which I would say is really Bush era.
16:23
Speaker 1: Nixon's like a prout anyways, and then it goes into
16:26
Speaker 1: that he reported on Watergate, which is like post Nixon.
16:30
Speaker 1: But he even Seymour Hersh is talking about like he
16:33
Speaker 1: didn't want to work on Watergate. He had way more
16:37
Speaker 1: important things that he thought were bigger news stories than Watergate,
16:40
Speaker 1: and that Watergate, the way that he describes it in
16:43
Speaker 1: his own words in this documentary is that it was
16:46
Speaker 1: almost like a distraction. It was like what they were
16:48
Speaker 1: throwing all the reporters at to like keep them busy,
16:51
Speaker 1: And he was sitting there saying, but what about like
16:53
Speaker 1: these other twenty things that I want to look into?
16:55
Speaker 1: But since Watergate was what everyone was pushing and what
16:58
Speaker 1: people wanted to read and write about that was kind
17:01
Speaker 1: of what he got roped into. And then Seymour Hirsh
17:04
Speaker 1: has a post sort of early era, So his early
17:09
Speaker 1: like he's got the greatest hits, right, his first few
17:11
Speaker 1: albums were his best albums that ever came out with
17:14
Speaker 1: It was the Myli massacre, the US bombing Cambodia, Nixon,
17:18
Speaker 1: and Watergate, and then you get this gap of like
17:22
Speaker 1: thirty years of he's still working, but then he gets
17:25
Speaker 1: these other big explosive stories. One of the biggest ones
17:28
Speaker 1: was the Abu Grabe story. And this is where they
17:31
Speaker 1: were basically torturing the prisoners with electricity and humiliate naked
17:36
Speaker 1: humiliation rituals and dog attacks and sexual assault, like all
17:42
Speaker 1: kinds of horrible things and Backstreet Boys music things even
17:46
Speaker 1: worse than that. So this came because somebody that I
17:50
Speaker 1: think was a mom of somebody that was actually stationed
17:54
Speaker 1: in this Abu Grabe she starts sending this insider information
17:58
Speaker 1: to Seymour Hirsh because he's got this reputation of being
18:01
Speaker 1: the guy that exposed of this stuff. And that's where
18:04
Speaker 1: this Abu Grape came from. It wasn't necessarily that he
18:07
Speaker 1: sat down. He's like, what are we going to look
18:08
Speaker 1: into today? You know, let's look into this Abu grape thing.
18:11
Speaker 1: It was that he had already established a precedent of
18:15
Speaker 1: here's who he is and what he does, and then
18:17
Speaker 1: like stories just kind of start coming to him after
18:19
Speaker 1: that point.
18:20
Speaker 5: Yeah, because he got a source, right, these anonymous sources
18:22
Speaker 5: give him some material and they even show actually in
18:25
Speaker 5: this part, the mom who was it was her former
18:29
Speaker 5: daughter in law that she was like, yeah, let her
18:32
Speaker 5: borrow my laptop when she was deployed. She came back,
18:35
Speaker 5: gave me my laptop and then I'm like, dang, there's
18:38
Speaker 5: some pictures and then she noticed all these crazy pictures
18:41
Speaker 5: felt the type of way. And then Seymour doing all
18:44
Speaker 5: his interviews throughout time, he was on a radio station
18:47
Speaker 5: and he just told him here's my number, call me
18:50
Speaker 5: up if you got anything. And then it just so
18:52
Speaker 5: happens that she called him up and looked. He goes said, look,
18:56
Speaker 5: I want to see my laptop. I have these pictures,
18:59
Speaker 5: and then he's like can I copy these?
19:02
Speaker 2: Like and then that just blew the top off.
19:04
Speaker 5: And I thought one of the interesting points too, is
19:06
Speaker 5: he was like CBS was sitting on this story for
19:10
Speaker 5: like two three weeks or something like that, and they
19:12
Speaker 5: didn't want to release it, and he goes, if you
19:14
Speaker 5: don't release it, I'm gonna release mine on Monday if
19:18
Speaker 5: you don't do a sixty minutes piece on it, and
19:19
Speaker 5: I'm gonna release mine.
19:20
Speaker 2: And I'm going to.
19:21
Speaker 5: Say in my piece that hey, CBS has been sitting
19:25
Speaker 5: on this, doesn't want to release it, and he kind
19:27
Speaker 5: of forced their hand to where they even had to go,
19:31
Speaker 5: We've been sitting on this for two weeks, but only
19:33
Speaker 5: because national security and like we're you know what I mean, Like.
19:36
Speaker 2: They had to backtrack a little bit.
19:38
Speaker 5: So I thought that was interesting too in the power dynamic,
19:41
Speaker 5: because a lot of people think everything is just like, well,
19:44
Speaker 5: it's got to be these people are running it. But
19:46
Speaker 5: there is annoyances that can push things, be like I
19:50
Speaker 5: will expose you and make you look bad if you
19:52
Speaker 5: don't do what I want. So I think the power
19:54
Speaker 5: dynamic can be for the little guy sometimes if you
19:57
Speaker 5: have the juicy information.
19:59
Speaker 1: And then to the end of the documentary, it kind
20:02
Speaker 1: of shows Seymour Hirsch talking with the documentary makers like
20:06
Speaker 1: they kind of break the fourth wall a little bit.
20:08
Speaker 1: We're now they're in the shots and it's them reviewing
20:12
Speaker 1: all the things that Seymour Hirsch has giving them access to,
20:16
Speaker 1: and he's going through the papers. He's like, you can't
20:18
Speaker 1: know who this person is. Oh my god, this person too.
20:21
Speaker 1: That's it. This documentary is over, you know. And it
20:24
Speaker 1: almost if if we didn't get a feeling of like
20:27
Speaker 1: who Seymour Hirsch was by hearing him talk in his
20:30
Speaker 1: own words, I would almost feel like this was an
20:33
Speaker 1: act at the end. But I don't feel like it
20:34
Speaker 1: was an act. I think like he legitimately was like,
20:36
Speaker 1: oh my god, I didn't realize that I gave you
20:39
Speaker 1: guys access to all of these secret sources that I
20:42
Speaker 1: have not revealed. And he's as he's going through and
20:44
Speaker 1: he's like, that's a CIA agent. That's a CIA agent, right,
20:48
Speaker 1: And he's like, I can't reveal these people. He's like,
20:50
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to pray any of this, you can't
20:52
Speaker 1: use any of this, And they do. They blur out
20:53
Speaker 1: like the names and all this stuff in the documentary.
20:56
Speaker 1: But as he's doing that, I'm just thinking, like, it's
20:59
Speaker 1: it's such a interesting for dicament to be in because
21:02
Speaker 1: A here's part of the criticism that you find of
21:05
Speaker 1: Seymour Hirsch outside of this documentary is that so many
21:09
Speaker 1: of the things that he writes and the claims and
21:11
Speaker 1: the articles are based on not just anonymous sources that
21:15
Speaker 1: he doesn't reveal the name or position or anything, but
21:18
Speaker 1: in some cases it is literally one anonymous source. And
21:23
Speaker 1: they action about that. They're like, you know, why would
21:26
Speaker 1: you build this whole long case and all these articles
21:30
Speaker 1: just on one source, And Seymour is kind of like, well,
21:32
Speaker 1: this one source has been right every time over the
21:35
Speaker 1: last forty years. They've never been wrong about anything. So
21:39
Speaker 1: that's I guess part of the aspect of the criticism
21:43
Speaker 1: is that he doesn't give up his sources, but you
21:45
Speaker 1: can kind of understand why. But then it's also like
21:47
Speaker 1: when you ask him the show, okay, like, well, what's
21:49
Speaker 1: your source, it's a trust me bro. It's like I
21:53
Speaker 1: gotta bro, so trust me bro. Now, I don't want
22:04
Speaker 1: to call a massacre a hidden treasure, but I do
22:08
Speaker 1: want to say that a renowned understanding of what the
22:13
Speaker 1: Myline massacre was, and that it was really multiple massacres,
22:17
Speaker 1: and that only one person took the fall for over
22:21
Speaker 1: five hundred people dying, and that the person that killed
22:24
Speaker 1: He was only convicted of murdering twenty two innocent civilians,
22:28
Speaker 1: by the way, not five hundred. But apparently if you
22:30
Speaker 1: kill twenty two innocent civilians in a international war, you
22:36
Speaker 1: get three and a half years of house arrest and
22:38
Speaker 1: then you get to retire in obscurity and lift out
22:41
Speaker 1: a long life until you're well into your eighties or nineties.
22:45
Speaker 5: That's a good deal, though, Man, I'm saying that's either
22:47
Speaker 5: a good lawyer. I don't know how that works or
22:50
Speaker 5: the systems in your favor. Are you saying that the
22:53
Speaker 5: four hundred and seventy eight other people that were dead
22:56
Speaker 5: that day they got what was coming to them.
22:59
Speaker 1: No, I'm I think that what happened is that the
23:01
Speaker 1: guy that got caught for that, he's like, I'm gonna
23:03
Speaker 1: find out who was responsible for killing those other four
23:06
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy eight people, and I'm gonna help bring
23:08
Speaker 1: them the justice.
23:09
Speaker 2: It was.
23:10
Speaker 1: It was the same way that like OJ was like,
23:11
Speaker 1: I'm gonna find out who killed Nicole if it's the
23:14
Speaker 1: last thing I do.
23:16
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And I do think that some of the
23:18
Speaker 2: hidden treasures too.
23:19
Speaker 5: I liked how they brought up Mkotra and they brought
23:22
Speaker 5: up chaos, right, like stuff that we've discussed and we're
23:25
Speaker 5: like flowing with. I liked how they brought up like
23:28
Speaker 5: things the ABU Grave. I like that they kind of
23:31
Speaker 5: touch a lot of stuff. But one of my like
23:33
Speaker 5: I won't say if it's an overboard moment, but it's
23:36
Speaker 5: more of a criticism because you're bringing up all this
23:38
Speaker 5: mkoutra and the church, you know, going over with the
23:44
Speaker 5: CIA that the Senate hearings of like, oh that CIA
23:48
Speaker 5: is doing this, but they never ever and maybe I
23:51
Speaker 5: missed it, but I rewinded a few times. I don't
23:53
Speaker 5: ever hear him say anything about Operation Mockingbird, And I'm like, yeah,
23:57
Speaker 5: you kind of allude to it throughout the whole film,
23:59
Speaker 5: like you know, corporate's in bed with the media, the
24:02
Speaker 5: government's in bed with the media, but they never specifically
24:04
Speaker 5: talk about Operation Mockingbird. And I just found it like
24:08
Speaker 5: kind of weird, Like I was like on board for
24:10
Speaker 5: most of it.
24:11
Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, this is good. I get it to
24:12
Speaker 2: his memoir and I'm with you.
24:13
Speaker 5: I thought at the end at first it was like
24:15
Speaker 5: an act like where he's like, oh, turn off the cameras.
24:18
Speaker 2: I can't do this.
24:19
Speaker 5: I know I said I would do this, and then
24:21
Speaker 5: he comes back and he's like, ah, you know, I
24:22
Speaker 5: said i'd do it, so I'm gonna do it. But
24:24
Speaker 5: then I think, like from hearing some of the perspectives
24:27
Speaker 5: of people talking about him, it's like, Okay, he's kind
24:29
Speaker 5: of a loose cannon. It'sh like, right, you don't know
24:32
Speaker 5: what you're They're like, you don't know what you're gonna
24:33
Speaker 5: get with him. He might be wild one day, real
24:36
Speaker 5: calm one day, and so I was like, you know,
24:38
Speaker 5: that kind of plays to the brand they've made. But
24:40
Speaker 5: the biggest criticism to me was like, all this stuff
24:44
Speaker 5: you talk about knowing about the corruption, you're not gonna
24:47
Speaker 5: mention that Operation mocking Bird, Like he alludes to it,
24:50
Speaker 5: like my editor was getting a direction from this guy
24:53
Speaker 5: and that guy.
24:54
Speaker 2: Why not bring it up? Uh?
24:56
Speaker 1: I think the good analogy that I'm and then just
24:59
Speaker 1: totally came to mind as I'm watching, especially towards the
25:02
Speaker 1: end where he's like, how did you get this note?
25:04
Speaker 1: Did I give you this? Oh? My god, you can't
25:06
Speaker 1: have this, Like when he starts doing that, I'm just
25:08
Speaker 1: imagining that, like you've someone out there has got a
25:11
Speaker 1: grandpa that was a genius, right, like, ran multiple businesses
25:15
Speaker 1: and was just like sharp, top of his game. But
25:17
Speaker 1: then at some point Grandpa gets swindled by some online
25:22
Speaker 1: like fake thought that's actually like a like a Nigerian
25:25
Speaker 1: print scam, right, And Grandpa spends all of his savings
25:28
Speaker 1: to someone on the internet and gets swindled out of it,
25:31
Speaker 1: and it's like, but Grandpa, you were so smart, you
25:33
Speaker 1: know how did this happen? It kind of feels like
25:36
Speaker 1: that angle of like Seymour hersh is, like, yeah, he's
25:40
Speaker 1: he was, he still is very talented investigative journalist, and
25:45
Speaker 1: he's got all these credentials. But also I feel like
25:48
Speaker 1: someone might be able to like convince him to give
25:50
Speaker 1: up their his bank details over the phone or something
25:53
Speaker 1: if he just like, I got this hot tip, but
25:55
Speaker 1: I need the last four of your social right now.
25:57
Speaker 1: You know what was your first pet's name. I feel
26:00
Speaker 1: like he's at that age where you can't no matter
26:03
Speaker 1: how smart you were during life, you might end up
26:05
Speaker 1: falling for some of this stuff. So they kind of
26:08
Speaker 1: allude to in his later years and some of the
26:12
Speaker 1: stories that he's chasing, and maybe it's easier to kind
26:15
Speaker 1: of like swindle him and maybe it's easier to lie
26:18
Speaker 1: to him, especially since he's so beholden to these people. Now,
26:22
Speaker 1: one of the little deep dives that I did on this,
26:26
Speaker 1: there was one time that he was swindled pretty badly.
26:28
Speaker 1: And these were called the JFK Marilyn Monroe Cusack papers
26:33
Speaker 1: and aka the Dark Side of Camelot. And this was
26:36
Speaker 1: supposed to be this huge expose on JFK and Marilyn Monroe.
26:42
Speaker 1: And I guess that a lot of his research ended
26:45
Speaker 1: up being bunk. Not that like the state was able
26:48
Speaker 1: to suppress it in some of the other cases that
26:50
Speaker 1: he gets criticized for, but in this case, he just
26:53
Speaker 1: didn't really have his thumb on the pulse of this thing.
26:55
Speaker 1: Another one that he gets criticized for, which actually is
26:58
Speaker 1: way more topical now than it was when he was
27:01
Speaker 1: being criticized, but that one of his sources was this
27:04
Speaker 1: guy named Ari Ben Manashi and Minashi. He basically was
27:11
Speaker 1: Israeli intelligence that I don't know if it's like a defector,
27:15
Speaker 1: but the same way that Hirsh had insider CIA that
27:18
Speaker 1: would tell him like, hey, here's some crap going on.
27:20
Speaker 1: Man the mment to get the dip on this, so
27:23
Speaker 1: Ari Ben Manashi was similar except for Israeli intelligence, and
27:27
Speaker 1: he's the one that basically described the connection between Gislaine
27:34
Speaker 1: Maxwell's father Robert Maxwell, being Massad intelligence and that when
27:39
Speaker 1: he fell off his yah and died, that that was
27:43
Speaker 1: actually Massad taking him out. That came from Seymour Hirsch
27:48
Speaker 1: directly through this Ari Ben Manashi guy. So originally when
27:51
Speaker 1: this came out, was like, that's crazy. You know, that's
27:54
Speaker 1: all conjecture. And if you said that, now you're like, hey,
27:56
Speaker 1: did you know that you know the Maxwell families in
27:58
Speaker 1: Bedel Massade, people like sure, who doesn't know that? You know,
28:02
Speaker 1: everyone's always known that, that's never been under contest. Well,
28:05
Speaker 1: that was specifically a criticism that was leveraged against Seymour
28:10
Speaker 1: Hirsch that he believed.
28:11
Speaker 5: This, And that's why I think it bugged me and
28:14
Speaker 5: not him bringing up the Operation Mockingbird, because I almost
28:17
Speaker 5: felt like the Marilyn Monroe JFK like notes and diary
28:22
Speaker 5: thing or letters with a was a ploy to discredit him,
28:26
Speaker 5: Like I'm like, yeah, bro, that's probably part of the program.
28:29
Speaker 5: Like you know what I mean, You're you're hunting down
28:32
Speaker 5: the things they don't want you to know.
28:33
Speaker 2: So what do they need to do?
28:34
Speaker 5: They need to discredit you, And that's why I thought
28:36
Speaker 5: it would be important to bring it up.
28:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, that he was kind of at risk, and he
28:41
Speaker 1: kind of got got a little bit. He did lose
28:43
Speaker 1: some of his credibility to where Seymour Hirsch might not
28:47
Speaker 1: be the same name as it was before a few
28:49
Speaker 1: of those stories came out that got heavily refuted. So
28:52
Speaker 1: there was another one too, in like Syria, but it
28:56
Speaker 1: didn't have the poziz. It doesn't have like a TV
28:58
Speaker 1: movie yet, so no one will really know about it.
29:04
Speaker 1: So sink or swim for cover up a story about Seymour.
29:08
Speaker 5: Hersh I gotta say for me, it does go like
29:13
Speaker 5: it's a little bit longer than I would like, but
29:14
Speaker 5: I understand that they're trying to like show who Seymour is.
29:17
Speaker 2: They go into the details.
29:19
Speaker 5: They even at the end I bring his wife into it,
29:21
Speaker 5: like they don't mention her full name, but like you know,
29:24
Speaker 5: when he gets emotional, you can see he is humanized.
29:27
Speaker 5: I think that this film does show a lot of
29:30
Speaker 5: cover ups. Would I would like it to be more right?
29:33
Speaker 5: I like it, but then I have to remember that
29:35
Speaker 5: this is Seymour's eyes right, we're looking through how his lenses.
29:40
Speaker 5: I'm gonna give it a swim. I actually would enjoyed it.
29:42
Speaker 5: I think other people would enjoy it. I think it's
29:45
Speaker 5: something that you could get into and anything that's going
29:47
Speaker 5: to get you onto these trails of like some normy
29:50
Speaker 5: just watching goes, what's chaos?
29:53
Speaker 2: Huh, what's mkotra? Oh? What's it like? Anything that would
29:56
Speaker 2: nudge you, And I think this could nudge you in
29:57
Speaker 2: the right direction.
29:59
Speaker 1: I give this an swim too. It literally happened to me.
30:02
Speaker 1: This just happened to be documentary that like popped up.
30:05
Speaker 1: I was working on something. I was like, I just
30:07
Speaker 1: I'll throw something off on the side, just to have
30:09
Speaker 1: some background noise. And once they started talking about my
30:14
Speaker 1: life wasn't just one massacre? Did you know that not
30:17
Speaker 1: only was it not the only massacre in the Vietnam War,
30:19
Speaker 1: it wasn't the only massacre that morning in that area.
30:23
Speaker 1: And I was like, Okay, let me start paying attention
30:25
Speaker 1: to this, and it legitimately ended up capturing my attention.
30:28
Speaker 1: And I love that he was involved in the family jewels.
30:33
Speaker 1: That was the report about all the different things the
30:35
Speaker 1: CIA was into. It was part of the Church Commission hearings.
30:39
Speaker 1: This is where you get the ice, heart attack, gun,
30:42
Speaker 1: the mk Ultra, the EW and Cameron psychic driving stuff.
30:46
Speaker 1: All that essentially came out of this. But I think
30:48
Speaker 1: that the documentary doesn't focus on that the same way
30:53
Speaker 1: it doesn't focus on Mockingbird because Hirsh wasn't really directly
30:57
Speaker 1: involved with the aftermath of all that. Although now that
31:00
Speaker 1: you mention it, I mean, it's not impossible that Seymour
31:04
Speaker 1: Hirsch could have been tangled up in Mockingbird. There's no
31:08
Speaker 1: evidence to that. We haven't looked up in anything. But
31:10
Speaker 1: the whole premise of Mockingbird was that you would just
31:14
Speaker 1: influence real reporters in certain ways. And I mean, in hell,
31:19
Speaker 1: if he said that he's been getting inside tips from
31:22
Speaker 1: CIA agents for four plus decades, there's a good chance
31:26
Speaker 1: that one of those CIA agents was somewhat tangential to Mockingbird.
31:30
Speaker 1: So therefore, you know, it's all speculation, but it's not
31:34
Speaker 1: even close to out of the realm of possibility. This
31:36
Speaker 1: actually feels more possible than impossible that Seymour Hirsh would
31:41
Speaker 1: have been contacted by a Mockingbird specific CIA agent.
31:45
Speaker 5: And speaking of birds, you could go to paranoid American
31:48
Speaker 5: dot com and go get yourself birds on real shirt.
31:50
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. Put it in their face.
31:52
Speaker 2: Let him know what we're doing.
31:53
Speaker 5: Go to under thedogs dot com. Kill themockingbirds dot com.
31:56
Speaker 5: Don't forget to like, subscribe and share the show. This
31:59
Speaker 5: is under the docks.
32:01
Speaker 4: He under the Dogs, Yeah, under the dogs. Very people
32:13
Speaker 4: were breaking the locks. Funny, but couldn't they erasele the shots?
32:19
Speaker 4: They got the dogs, under the Dogs, under the docks. Yeah,
32:25
Speaker 4: under the Dogs, under the Dogs.
32:53
Speaker 2: Ches by Sophy.
32:58
Speaker 3: Cheesy. So something from.
33:01
Speaker 7: Parent noy Americans, by something just by something from paron
33:12
Speaker 7: no American.
33:13
Speaker 8: Some merch by some artalink at to car say you're back,
33:20
Speaker 8: need that print now your hate you consent by your
33:25
Speaker 8: comic three your phone, Think the start, I want more?
33:29
Speaker 8: Buy a sticker from the store, Think.
33:32
Speaker 6: The start, I want more?
33:37
Speaker 4: Something just by shothing.
33:43
Speaker 6: From hearing no American, just by shoping, just by shoing
33:54
Speaker 6: from parent noi American.
34:07
Speaker 9: I screw led my life for way drifting the right
34:09
Speaker 9: to page with any light to bring if you're the
34:12
Speaker 9: flight of the plane shape with the highs of blaze,
34:14
Speaker 9: some what of an amazing feel when it's real, the
34:17
Speaker 9: real you will engage in your favorite to pause the
34:20
Speaker 9: Lord of an arrangement, I gave you the proper results
34:23
Speaker 9: to hit the pavement. If they your emotional hate may be.
34:26
Speaker 1: Your language the game.
34:27
Speaker 2: How they playing it well without.
34:29
Speaker 9: Leanthe because evaded and whatever the costs they are the
34:32
Speaker 9: shape shifting Thanks give you the cappeltated that it is
34:34
Speaker 9: the apex executional flame. You walk ook your little bombs,
34:38
Speaker 9: distributed a war, rather cruising for eyes to see maxim out.
34:42
Speaker 9: Then I light my trees, blowing off in the face.
34:45
Speaker 9: You're despising me for what thoat calculated did rather cut
34:48
Speaker 9: throat perinoid American must be all the blunt spoke for real. Lord,
34:52
Speaker 9: give me your day, your way, vacate. They weight around
34:55
Speaker 9: that hate. Whatever they say, man, it's not in the
34:58
Speaker 9: least bitten. You heavy rotate when the beat hit some
35:02
Speaker 9: things because you well, uncle niggas for well, you welcome.
35:05
Speaker 3: They ain't ever had a deal.
35:07
Speaker 9: You welcome, man, They lacking a pill.
35:10
Speaker 2: You welcome, yet they don't when it's still you're welcome.