Latest / Salish Wolf / #81 Joe Lyons on Project Quiver

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#81 Joe Lyons on Project Quiver · Salish Wolf

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Welcome to Project Quiver, a father daughter journey across
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the globe to capture the artistry and spirit of the
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world's finest traditional bow carvers.
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I'm Todd, the father. Ella is my daughter.
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Together we're on a mission to create a stunning coffee table
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book that profiles more than a dozen master bow years and their
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unparalleled skill. For each chapter, we travel to
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the Bow Years workshop. Carve a bow under his guidance,
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photograph his woodcraft in detail, and share his story here
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on the Salish Wolf Podcast. The book is called Quiver the
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Art of Life. Through Bowcraft and this
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journey, our living story is Project Quiver.
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Wow, it's nice to meet you, Joe. Thanks for jumping on the call
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with me and doing this podcast. It was very last minute.
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I just had a cancellation. So thank you for stepping up to
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do it. Where are you?
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Where are you based? So I'm in Nottingham, England,
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UK, so Midlands basically. OK.
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Have you been there long? That's the.
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Home of Robin Hood as well, kind of a bit of a bit of an
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inspiration for me. So I got to shoot one of my bows
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last year at Sherwood Forest, which is a quite a cool
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experience. Nice to have some sort of event
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there. Yeah, it was a Robin Hood
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festival, so they've got various different events on throughout
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the summer holidays. So I was trading, I had a stall
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there, sold some bows and a few of the little bits.
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And I'm, I'll be doing it again this year as well.
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So I'm looking forward to that. Cool.
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How big is the event? I don't know how many people are
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there. It's not, it's not huge, but I'd
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say a few thousand potentially. But it's pretty.
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They've probably got like 4 weekends of the summer holidays
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so. And it's all archery related or
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a variety of things. It's a variety of different
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things, yeah. And they've got like a a
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jousting weekend. So they, they do different
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themes each weekend. So yeah, lots of different
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things going on, lots of crafts and different stores, lots of
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people dressing up. It's a good experience.
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What's the forest like? It's really cool.
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Yeah, I really like it. I actually did a because I
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stayed overnight as well. I camped overnight and then I
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did a little walk in the dark after midnight.
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I just walked up to the major oak through the woods and
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carrying one of my bows as well. So I was just sort of imagining
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what it would be like as a medieval outlaw walking through
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those woods. I don't know how how well used
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that area actually was. That's now opened up to the
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public and because I don't think I thought people might have been
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living there, but I got told by a local that it was unlikely
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because there's no sort of running water source through it.
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So it probably wasn't like a major settlement, but I imagine
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it was still still used by outlaws and I'm sure they would
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have known known that area quite well.
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That's cool. How big is the forest?
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You have any? Idea.
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No idea. I mean, it's a lot smaller than
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what it would have been there. It would have been like covering
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a huge, vast area, but obviously with all housing, estate,
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estates and stuff. Now it's all been split up and
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it's a lot smaller than what it would have once been.
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But yeah, I wouldn't be able to give you, I have no idea, a
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figure of how big it is. It's so cool, all these little
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events that especially in Europe, you guys and in the UK
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in particular, you guys seem to have so many cool like medieval
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type of events and historical events that bring archery and
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other things into it. I really want to get more into
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them because that's that's pretty much the only festival
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I've done so far, our event and especially sort of the fantasy,
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fantasy and reenactment events. I really want to get involved in
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those because that's what my bows would suit and I much
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prefer making fantasy bows. So I've been focusing on them a
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lot recently. I've got some really cool
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staves, actually wild rose staves, which I'm planning on
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making orc themed bows out of them because they've got this
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lovely green bark with natural thorns on them.
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So, and it's something that I, I do a lot anyway, I try and
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always keep the bark on bows if I can because I just think it
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adds so much more character. So yeah, they they would suit an
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orc bow perfectly. I think I have to show you some
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pictures of it and stuff. I was hoping I'd be in the
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garage to be able to show you some of the bows, but connection
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obviously meant that I needed to be in the house so.
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OK, do you find the bark stays on the bows most of the time or
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is it ever split and come off? Yeah it can is it can be an
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issue. It depends a lot on the the type
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of wood. So some bark sticks a lot better
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than others. Also what time of year you cut
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it? So if you cut it in winter, it
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will stick on a lot better. And if you could it in light
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spring or summertime, it's much more likely to peel off.
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So yeah, it's just getting to know the wood type and drying it
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slowly helps, helps with the wood adhesion as well.
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And then I've I've been playing about with different finishes on
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what makes the box stick the best.
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And so far, I think Linse 1 coating of linseed oil, maybe
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one or two coatings of linseed oil and then sealed with varnish
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after the linseed's dried seems to be working the best for me.
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So I think the varnish really sort of helps cement everything
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in place and stops any like cracking chips on the bark
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that's going to wear wear away. So yeah, I'm going to keep keep
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experimenting with that, see if I can find an even better
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solution. But yeah, so far linseed oil in
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varnish I think is the one. And does that add extra tension
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on the back of the bow having the bark or is it more
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aesthetic? Yeah, I don't think it makes
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much difference. I think it will add a bit of
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weight potentially and maybe a slight bit of tension, but I've
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not really tested it or anything.
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I don't imagine it would have much effect, but a lot of Bowers
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do like to take the bark off because it can trap moisture,
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which can be a problem. It can also hide any like
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irregular, what do you call it, irregularities in the wood or
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any like damage to the back of the bow.
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It can hide that, but my argument for it is that it also
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protects it against that. So say if I've got a bow with
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bark on the back and I accidentally drop it onto
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something sharp, is the bark can protect it and absorb that
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damage rather than it cutting into the back of the bow.
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So for me, I actually feel like it's more more likely to not
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have any issues by keeping the bark on.
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And it just ensures as well that you've got that clean back,
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which for me I've found is like the number one golden rule of
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self bow making is making sure that the back of the bow is
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completely intact, not cutting into that outer growth ring.
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So yeah, it really helps with that I find.
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What are some of the other woods you work with?
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So Hazel was the first wood that I ever experimented with.
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I still use that quite a bit now, but it's one of my least
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favourites because I just feel like it's one of the hardest to
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tiller. It's probably the most
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unforgiving and it's it's really sort of prone to compression
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damage. So I've had a lot of Hazel bows,
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Kreisel and yeah, any, any sort of, if you've not got the tiller
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perfect, I feel like it's it's most likely to go.
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So yeah, I've not been using Hazel as much recently, but you
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use also it's you ash Maple. But my favorite is Dogwood.
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I think it's really underrated. Don't hear many people using it
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but. For me.
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Flower Flowering Dogwood Do you use flowering Dogwood?
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I'm not sure. I know it's common Dogwood and I
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don't know if it's different over here than in America, but
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yeah, I think it is. I know that it's got red bark on
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it, so I think it's just, yeah, just common Dogwood, I think.
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What do you like about it? It's extremely strong in
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compression strength, so even even stronger than you in a lot
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of cases. It's also got great tension
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strength. It's really easy to tiller and
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smooth. You often don't get big side
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knots on it side shoots side branches.
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It just has nodes. So it's kind of a bit like
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bamboo almost where it has has nodes and just tiny little
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offshoots symmetrical along the along the wood.
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But yeah, I just I find it till is really smooth.
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It's really strong, steady, stable bow.
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The box goes on well, which is perfect for me.
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On bamboo, nodes are a point of weakness.
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Are they a point of weakness on the Dogwood?
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Yeah, they are. It's obviously you'd prefer to
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not have them, but for me they're not.
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They're not too much of an issue.
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They're not like too big or anything.
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As long as you you tiller it well and you're you're aware of
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it, I've never really found much of a problem with it.
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Where are you getting your staves?
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So I'd start out just just going out into the woods local to me.
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I'd never take anything from like a park or anything like
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that. But you know, areas where no one
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really walks, just in dense, dense hedge land.
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I was doing that, but now I've got a guy with land that
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supplies Dave Smith, so I don't have to do that anymore.
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And it also saves me a lot of time going out cutting it.
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So yes, I'm in a good place with that now.
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He has he has a supply of specific wood for you or you can
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get. Lots of different, yeah, yeah,
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it's lots of different wood. Yeah.
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So it's it's fun to experiment. I that's one thing I love about
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bow making is trying different wood types because some things
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can really surprise you. Another one as well I've not
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mentioned is Wild Rose. Oh no, I did actually.
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I mentioned it with the orc bows that has on the yeah, I was
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really surprised by that, especially with its springiness.
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It's really snappy or kind of similar to you in a way the USAP
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would how well it it bends like just really springy and springs
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back in place again. So I'll definitely be using.
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What's the diameter on Wild Rose?
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It must be pretty small, isn't it?
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You'd think so, but I've seen some really big pieces so I've
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seen it go up to like maybe 3 inches in diameter, which I
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don't like working with anything larger than that anyway.
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So you do mostly like sapling bows or branches.
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Yeah, pretty much all sapling bows.
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Normally between two and three inches is my preference.
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And I don't I've never really done any splitting either other
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than the guy I spoke about. He does have one of those like
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table saws where you can just slide a bow those stay through
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and split it in half. I've done that a little bit for
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some flat bows, but I'm mostly just using 1 sapling and then
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just working it down and just getting 1 bow out of it.
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Yeah. What are your favorite types of
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bows to carve? Black bow designs.
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Yeah, you said fancy bow, So what is what is a fancy bow?
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You mentioned the work bow, but what else?
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Fantasy bow. Well, a fancy bow.
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Fantasy. OK, yeah, fantasy, not a fancy.
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Fantasy A. Fantasy fancy, Yeah.
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So for different design, I mean, I've made some flat bows and and
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long bows. I've never made a true English
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Longbow yet where it's really sort of deep and narrow.
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I've got a row in the stave that I'm about to try and make my
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first heavy bow out of. So I'm aiming for something
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about £80 out of that. So far, I've only made something
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up to about 60 lbs. I've not really focused on the
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heavy bows. Yeah, I'm keen to do that and
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also improve, improve my strength of shooting as well.
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I want to start building up to £100 in weight.
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So I just want to keep making myself a heavier bow each time
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and then keep working my way up. But my favorite, yeah, it's
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something similar to a Longbow, but a bit wider in design
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because it helps spread out the stress a bit more.
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If you've not got high quality wood, like a really good use
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Dave, then I find keeping it a bit wider than a traditional
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English Longbow, I think, yeah, that's probably my favorite
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design. And then not having a handle, I
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prefer just having the the limbs in handle all just matched up
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together and having a slightly bending handle as well.
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I feel like that's how you can get the most out of the stave in
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terms of draw length and draw weight.
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Yeah, yeah, archery. So you're trying to work up to
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£100. Why is that?
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Just because I think I'd be really happy with myself once
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I've I wouldn't, I can say I can shoot 100 LB bow.
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So that's kind of my my target. And also, did you ever play
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Runescape? No.
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Have you heard of it? Enough.
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OK, Well, it's a video game I used to play a lot as a kid,
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like an online game. It was like one of the first
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role-playing games online. And in that you have different
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skills like wood cutting and it's called fletching, but that
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bow making and arrow making in the game.
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And it was sort of a bit of an inspiration because I started
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playing it again as an adult and I realized how much time I was
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wasting. And I was like, why don't I just
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do this in real life? And then improve my fletching
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skill in real life and actually get more out of it than just
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playing a video game. So I'm kind of treating it like
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the skill level on the game is that the poundage of bow that
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I'm making is shooting. So I'm classing myself as a real
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life level 60 Fletcher at the minute, and then with the same
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for archery. So I'm shooting a 60 LB bow.
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Once I get to 99 that'll be the Max level.
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Something that helps motivate me I guess.
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And is archery a daily practice for you?
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I tried to make it, yeah, I but I get quite bored of it to be
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honest. I much prefer making bows.
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I only really shoot bows when I'm testing them out.
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But I want to join an archery club this year and I think that
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will then motivate me to to do it a lot more and I'll probably
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start enjoying it more as well, especially if I start competing.
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Are you allowed to hunt in England with a?
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No, you cannot. No.
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But I wouldn't want to anyway. I would feel too bad killing an
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animal. Yeah, but I'm really interested
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in. I can't remember what it's
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called now. I think it's, oh, 3D shooting.
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You know, when you've got, like, your animals that you're
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shooting at. I'd like to.
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I'd like to do that because I think it's the best alternative
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to hunting because I would like this skill, you know, You know,
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if all law and order broke down and the world turned into chaos,
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I feel like it would be a as it is used to be able to hunt.
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So I think that's the best way of practicing without harming
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any animals. OK, cool.
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Are you at all worried about if you get up to 100 LB bow?
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Or are you at all worried about injuries or imbalances?
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Yeah, it is a concern, but that's why I just want to do it
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gradually. I don't just want to jump
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straight up there and I want to make sure that my techniques
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solid. And if I do start getting any
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pains, I'll just back off the weight a little bit and just
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focus on form. Yeah, now I'm a big proponent of
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shooting both sides. Do you shoot one side or both
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sides? I really should.
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And now I haven't really done much left hand shooting at all.
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So I'm right-handed. But yeah, you've reminded me to
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to give it a go, I think just so.
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So why do you why do you think it's important to do?
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Well, for for balance, symmetry and everything like I'm always
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looking at, I got into archery through my background in Chinese
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medicine, which is all about balance.
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It's my practice of Tai chi Everything's about balance and
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kind of balance in motion. And so when I started archery,
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it didn't make sense to me to do it one sided because that's the
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opposite of being imbalance. So I was doing it not only as
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kind of, I do it not only as a meditation, but it's also when
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I'm working with heavier bows, it's a workout.
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And so I would never go to like the gym to work out 1/2 of my
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body. And so I've always just seen it
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as you know, this is a practice of for me, it's also like
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through the meditator practice, I wanted to be a holistic
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practice. And so it helps to train my
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brain, it helps to train my vision, helps to train my body
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to stay balanced. And so I found that it's just
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like overall a really good practice.
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And it's not hard to do. Most people are like, oh, no,
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I've never that that seems so weird that I, I promise.
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Like you shoot two dozen arrows on your off side and you know
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how to do it and it just feels weird.
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But when you shoot a couple rounds of arrows and all of a
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sudden it's like, OK, that's not too bad.
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Yeah, that kind of makes sense. Your aim might be shit for a
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while, but because we're all one eye dominant, you're probably
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right eye dominant and and when you shoot offhanded you'd be
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aiming with your left eye. But I think that's where there's
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a really big benefit because I think it actually trains the the
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vision to work better. I think a connection between the
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vision and the brain, I think it actually really helps with that.
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I have found that my non dominant eye aiming has become
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so much more accurate over the years than when I first started
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out. So.
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I imagine it helps you retrain, retrain everything because when
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you're then shooting on the opposite side, you happen to to
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think about your technique and everything because would you
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just get used to shooting on one side all the time, especially if
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you've been shooting for a while like that, You just do
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everything naturally. You're not you're not thinking
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about it, but I don't think or there's it seems like those
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medieval Archers were not training both sides because
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there's a lot of they're very yes, they were.
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Their skeletons were all just one sided.
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Yeah, they were very asymmetrical and that was part
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of it for me when I learned that I'm like, well, yeah, that makes
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sense. You're going to, if I'm going to
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do this for decades, why would I set myself up to be crooked?
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You know, it's it's one of the advantages that we have as
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permit of Archers because typically we don't have arrow
18:37
shelves so we can shoot. Maybe the string alignment
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favors one side over the other, but for the most part, you can
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shoot our, you know, our bows without arrow shelves both ways.
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And so I was listening to Joe Rogan a while ago and he talks
18:49
about doing exercises for his offside in the gym to compensate
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for his archery. And I'm like, well, why not just
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do archery both sides and then not have to do those exercises
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in the gym? But again, he he's probably he's
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shooting more with compound bow. So that's obviously not as
19:06
convenient as it is for us to do it.
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But yeah, I'm just a big fan of of I'm always looking at ways to
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take care of my body and arteries and major part of that.
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And so balance just is important to me.
19:19
Yeah. Especially if you're you're
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working up to 100 lbs. I mean, that's a significant
19:23
amount of weight to be pulling one one way.
19:27
Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
19:29
Yeah, I'm going to try it later. I've got the artery thing set
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up, so I'll give it a go left-handed and let you know how
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it goes. Nice.
19:37
How long have you been making both?
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It's not quite two years yet, so I think it was, it's probably a
19:44
year and a half maybe. I think it was October 2024 when
19:48
I, yeah, when I first started. So it's not been long.
19:54
Still taking your early steps and how many bills do you think
19:56
you've made? It's been a lot, you know,
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because I'm, I'm really obsessed with it.
20:01
So and I've been very fortunate where I've.
20:05
I've been able to just live at my parents house and they've not
20:08
been charging me bored and I've just been able to focus on my
20:10
bows and setting up my business. So yeah, I've just been
20:15
grafting. Most days I'm always in the
20:17
garage just with some music or a podcast on.
20:19
And I feel like that's just my happy place where I am.
20:23
And yeah, so I've probably, I've not kept track of how many I've
20:27
made, but it must be over 50 now.
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OK, I've broken a lot as well. Like when I first started out,
20:34
my bows are absolutely terrible. I've broken so many, was getting
20:38
really frustrated, nearly gave up.
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And then there was just one bow where I really slowed down and
20:43
took my time on it. And then I got a really good
20:45
tiller out of it. And that feeling when I made it
20:47
was just just such a good feeling that I just got addicted
20:50
to it. Nice, so your brand is Wildwood
20:53
Bows? Where does that come from?
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It kind of came from the inspiration of the the bark
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because I started making leaving bark on a lot.
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I just think it fits very well with it being Wildwood and I
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wanted to make lots of weird, wacky designs I guess and just
21:13
experiment a lot. So I think it just really fits
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in with the vibe of it. I like the the sound of it as
21:18
well. And then you're selling these on
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Etsy. Do you sell them through your
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Instagram as well? Yeah, so people can contact me
21:27
by Instagram or Etsy, also Facebook as well, but I don't
21:31
have a A page yet. I've just been doing that
21:34
through my private Facebook account.
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So I do really need to set up a Wildwood Bows Facebook page.
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It's something, yeah, something I still need to get on with
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really. And.
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It's the goal to do this full time.
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I would love that. Yeah.
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That, that's kind of what I'm hoping to, to get towards.
21:51
Yeah. And.
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What was the inspiration for getting into it?
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Well, it was partly that that game I was playing and then
22:01
realizing or just thinking just to try it in real life.
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I also got very obsessed with Robin Hood at one point, had
22:10
some kind of, I felt a bit of a spiritual connection to Robin
22:16
Hood is the only way I can describe it.
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So I just wanted to delve into that a little bit and then just,
22:23
yeah, just fully got hooked on it from there, so.
22:26
What were what are some of the resources that you've used to
22:28
learn? ChatGPT mostly it's and a lot of
22:33
people say AI is that it's not a good thing to use, but I found
22:38
it really helpful because when you think about it, it's
22:41
practically read every book and like read every forum and stuff
22:47
online. So it does have a wealth of
22:49
knowledge. It does just sometimes get
22:51
things wrong. So you do have to be aware that
22:55
it's not always correct and and check it and test it.
22:59
But for me, I've still found it's just so useful.
23:02
The fact that I can just ask you any question and it normally
23:05
comes out with something really useful and even like Tiller
23:10
check in, I think it's got better as well.
23:12
When I was first sending it photos of my bows on the tiller
23:15
stick, it was it was often telling me to remove woods in in
23:20
areas where I shouldn't have and I was just fully trusting it
23:22
like yeah, OK, ChatGPT says it must be right.
23:25
And I've ruined a few bows doing that.
23:27
So I've now I've now learned to to not fully trust it with
23:31
tiller checks, but I've been doing it recently and it's
23:34
always getting it right where where I need to remove woods.
23:37
So yeah, it's definitely definitely getting smarter at
23:40
it, that's for sure. I.
23:42
Mean what? A juxtaposition of such a new
23:46
modern phenomenon with the the ancient art of bow craft.
23:50
It's very interesting. It's a weird combination, isn't
23:53
it? I feel like I'm sort of reviving
23:55
a a lost craft, but using modern technology.
23:59
It kind of feels like that. And do you use?
24:02
Do you have any books that you also rely on?
24:06
Well, I've got the Bose Bible Volume 1, but I never finished
24:10
it. I'm not a very good reader
24:12
anyway. I always get bored of reading.
24:13
I much prefer listening to a podcast.
24:15
So yeah, probably about halfway through that.
24:18
And it's just just so much information overload with all
24:21
figures and stuff like that that I just, my brain can't
24:24
comprehend it for long. So I get a lot of my information
24:29
from podcasts as well. Like your podcasts have been
24:31
really useful. And there's another guy, I can't
24:34
remember what his name is now, but he had, he did a podcast
24:37
with a lot of bow makers and had what's that guy from Canada
24:43
called? He's he's doesn't, he's done a
24:44
lot of YouTube videos. Dan, is it Dan?
24:48
Dan Santana. Dan Santana, He's he's from the
24:51
States. Oh, is he?
24:53
He's in the US. No, he's in the USI.
24:56
Found his his way of explaining things really really useful.
25:01
Yeah, his stuff is great. So what is it about podcasts?
25:06
What type of information or questions have been most helpful
25:10
to you or answers? I don't know if I can think of
25:15
anything in particular, but I just like it when someone
25:19
explains things quite simplified and speaks more of kind of the
25:25
golden rules as it were. Just things that are always that
25:31
work across the board. And I do think a lot of people
25:36
overcomplicate it when it comes to bow making.
25:39
So many people have this the very set in stone a lot of the
25:43
time about how things should be done when there's, there's often
25:46
many different ways you can go about the same problem.
25:49
Yeah. So, yeah, anyone that keeps it
25:52
quite simplified, I always, I always really appreciate their
25:56
their information. Would you go on?
26:00
Sorry, no. No, that's fine.
26:01
Go ahead. I was going to say one thing
26:04
that I hear a lot of is people saying you need to season a
26:08
stave for like one or two years. And I thought when I first
26:11
started bow making I was like I've got to wait one or two
26:14
years before I even have a go at this hobby.
26:17
But I think especially when you're first starting out, it
26:21
doesn't really matter that much if you if your staves not fully
26:24
seasoned because chances are you're going to mess that bow up
26:29
anyway if it's your first attempt.
26:31
And having it a little bit green anyway will show the floors
26:34
earlier on. So you'll you'll start getting
26:36
set in areas where you've weakened it too much.
26:38
And that's really useful when you're learning.
26:42
So yeah, I don't think it matters too much with with how
26:46
seasoned the wood is when you're first starting out.
26:48
But obviously if you're making a high performance bow and you
26:51
want the bow to last, then yeah, you want it fully seasoned.
26:54
But there's quicker ways of of doing that.
26:56
You don't have to wait a whole year or two for this big chunk
27:00
of wood to season. So I often rough the bow out and
27:04
then store it somewhere cool, see all the ends obviously.
27:09
And then once it's dried a little bit, I'll remove a little
27:12
bit more wood and keep keep checking the weight of it as
27:17
well every day and seeing until it stops dropping in weight.
27:20
Then you know, you know that it's reached equilibrium
27:24
moisture content. I think Dan Santana described it
27:26
as that was something I learned from him.
27:30
But you do have to be careful. Actually, if you're drying wood
27:33
too quickly, you're more likely to get drying cracks, which is
27:36
something that wild rose is a nightmare for our found.
27:40
So I'm now experimenting with, after roughing it out, wrapping
27:44
it up in newspaper and leaving it for like a week or two just
27:48
to really slow down that initial moisture loss where cracks
27:51
develop. OK, I'm yeah, yeah.
27:55
I'll see how it how it turns out from that when I unwrap them
27:59
from the newspaper. Hopefully it works.
28:02
What do you find are some of your biggest ongoing challenges
28:05
in making both? Biggest ongoing challenges?
28:11
Like anything that you you still worry about during the bow
28:14
making process. Any areas where the bow is going
28:17
to break for you, this is it. I'm now quite confident with my
28:23
Tillery and I normally know where a problem is going to come
28:26
up and I can I can now see it, whereas before I was really
28:29
struggling to to even see where a potential weak spot was coming
28:33
up. So I'm, I've only recently got,
28:37
yeah, quite competent with Tillery, which I'm really
28:39
pleased about. But I think the one thing that
28:41
comes to mind now that I struggle on a lot is horn tips.
28:44
I want to, I often like bows with horn tips and I want to
28:48
start making those. But the few times I've tried it,
28:51
it's so hard to get the perfect insert of that, OK, at the end
28:55
of the bow into the horn because you have to drill a hole into
28:58
the horn and then and make it like a, a socket.
29:01
So it fits, fits well. And I always struggle to get a
29:04
decent fit on that. And also knocks that come along
29:07
with that. So knocks have always been a
29:09
weak point for me and I've now just settled on doing the same
29:14
knocks every time. So single side knocks is pretty
29:16
much what I always do, but I wish I was more more confident
29:20
in doing lots of different knock designs.
29:23
So yeah, I should really should really experiment with that a
29:26
bit more and practice doing different styles of knocks.
29:30
And what are are you trying tip overlays at all with horns or
29:34
are you just doing horn caps? I've only done tip overlays once
29:38
and they they came off so I've not trusted them since.
29:41
Yeah, maybe I didn't glue them very well or something, but.
29:44
What glue were you using? It was.
29:48
It was. What's it called?
29:52
The best glue? What do you call it?
29:54
What do you call it? Were we using epoxy or the?
29:57
Yeah, the Super glue, that's what I was thinking Epoxy, which
30:00
is supposed to be the best, but it I think it was I had it in
30:05
the sun or something like that. The bow got heated up and then
30:07
it just knocked off really easily.
30:10
But it I I found pumping it hard enough but.
30:13
When I I've found great success with the Super glue, just the
30:16
cyanocrylate. OK, so that's like the common
30:20
super glue the bowyers make and I'll put it on my my tip
30:24
overlays and within 3 minutes I can start to work them.
30:28
I've never had one come off. Oh.
30:30
Yeah. Yeah, this stuff, this stuff has
30:33
been great. I mean, if you get it on your
30:34
fingers, you're going to glue your finger to the horn as well.
30:36
But just be aware of that. But yeah, I normally just get it
30:40
lined up and then put a couple little baby clamps on it and
30:42
leave it for like 3 to 5 minutes and then it's ready to go.
30:46
Of course, it depends, I would imagine, on how far, like how
30:50
much of an angle you've made in the bow and how much beyond the
30:54
tip of the bow your overlay is and where your your point of
30:58
your leverage is. You got to make sure obviously
31:00
your point of leverage is not hanging out over the wood of the
31:02
bow because that'll pop it off. But yeah, I've never had issues
31:07
with with that. And then with the horn caps
31:09
worked with a lot of Bowers who've had different styles.
31:11
Are you using like a conical drill bit to drill it out on the
31:16
inside? I was just, I probably should, I
31:21
was kind of using just a normal straight drill and then kind of
31:25
creating that conical shape by. Oh, that's.
31:28
All going it around. Very tricky.
31:31
Now get yourself out of it. Yeah, get a conical drill bit.
31:34
I don't know actually what they're called, but they're
31:37
literally just a little cone and then you can take your
31:41
proportions on that and you can actually just like trace it
31:44
right on to the end of your bow. Jake Fenwick likes to use just
31:49
like a a belt Sander. Actually what's what's the the
31:54
wheel? I think he uses the wheel on the
31:55
side of a belt Sander. I forget what that's called, but
31:58
he'll shape his down like almost perfectly using that just like a
32:01
big pencil sharpener and he's so skilled with it.
32:05
Jamie McDonald, a Ravenbeak, he uses more of like a rasp.
32:09
He'll draw it in pencil and he'll just slowly rasp all the
32:12
sides. But he's such an expert at it.
32:13
Like he'll get, he'll get one to a perfect fit in like 5 minutes.
32:17
It's amazing. But I, I think it begins with
32:20
having that very symmetrical conical shape within the horn.
32:26
If that's screwed up and it sounds like it's going to be at
32:29
the, if you're whittling it out. Yeah, you, you need a drill bit.
32:33
Jamie actually makes his own drill bits.
32:35
He just takes one and he kind of like files it down to a a
32:38
perfect triangle. But I'm I've seen the conical
32:41
ones too that you can use. OK, yeah, I'll have to get one
32:45
then. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be have
32:47
have access to like a belt Sander.
32:49
So I'll have to use the rest method.
32:50
But certainly if it works, a conical drill bit will
32:53
definitely help me out I think. Yeah, there are also like giant
32:57
pencil sharpener type of things that you can use to and if you
33:02
can match your drill bit to that same shape of your your giant
33:05
pencil sharpener, then your golden.
33:07
But I I think those are hard to come by, but they they do exist.
33:14
I've got a question for you actually, because you are you
33:17
still working on this book that you're making?
33:20
Are you still visiting people and.
33:23
Not for this volume of the book. So this first volume is already
33:26
wrapped up as far as our journey, and it's with the
33:30
publisher right now. We're going through the final
33:32
stage of design process and editing.
33:35
If if everything goes well and the book sells well, then we're
33:37
going to head back out for a volume to, but that's still to
33:41
be seen. The books not released until
33:42
October. And so right now we're just
33:45
making sure that we're releasing the best possible book and then
33:49
hopefully it's well received in the community and we can start
33:52
looking at doing another round. OK, awesome.
33:55
Yeah. So then you just go out to lots
33:57
of different bow makers again and.
34:00
Yeah, we, we, we'd switched some things up on the second version
34:05
now that we've learned from the first time around.
34:07
But I'm really pleased with how things went on our first
34:11
journey. Like we, I would say one of the
34:13
biggest things we'd probably change is we probably wouldn't
34:15
do it in such a condensed period of time.
34:17
Like we basically did our last two months in Europe.
34:22
It was like 8 bow years over two months.
34:24
It was a lot of of zipping around from and that started in
34:28
Canada. So probably the last 10 weeks we
34:30
did like 10 bow years and it was, it was a lot.
34:33
It was a lot of travelling and a lot of like scheduling and
34:36
trying to get everyone on the same page with what we needed
34:39
and when we needed it. So I think going back into
34:42
around 2:00, we'd have a little bit more spaciousness in our
34:46
time, but. You must feel like you've
34:48
learned so much after doing that just.
34:50
Oh, it's been incredible. Really high level bow makers and
34:55
yeah, just just getting bits of knowledge from each of them and
34:58
things that you wouldn't have even considered.
34:59
I'm sure that they're showing you and.
35:01
Yeah, absolutely. And just like there's been no
35:05
better educational, I don't think there is a better
35:07
educational process than just doing mentorships with bowyers.
35:11
And then I've noticed too, and some of the subsequent Instagram
35:15
posts from some of the Bowyers in the book, they're using some
35:18
of the techniques that I showed them, that I was showed by
35:20
bowyers before I met with them. And so it's cool to see how the
35:24
knowledge from the bow years is kind of spreading among the 14
35:28
that we worked with. And a lot of them are in
35:30
collaboration anyway, or in communication.
35:32
But I've seen some of the ideas and concepts kind of spread to
35:35
different bow years. So it's been really cool and
35:37
rewarding. Yeah, I really like that people
35:41
are sharing knowledge between each other.
35:43
It doesn't feel like there's people holding back and
35:46
gatekeeping knowledge. Everyone's so keen to share and
35:49
help each other out, which is really nice.
35:51
Yeah, it's not really a proprietary type of knowledge.
35:54
And this has been done for 10,000 years.
35:56
And yeah, there are some bowyers who have their own kind of
36:00
special sauce, so to speak, when doing like their horn bows or
36:03
whatnot. But for the most part, people
36:06
are just like they're learning from our ancestors and and
36:10
knowledge is out there. So it's just kind of, why not
36:13
share it and pass it on? Yeah.
36:17
So it's been, yeah, like our experience was it's and it just
36:22
continues to be so amazing. You've been working with the
36:24
publisher and going through the book design.
36:26
This is all new to us. And so it's just been a load of
36:29
fun. And I have had a meeting right
36:30
before you. I have a meeting right after
36:32
this with the Bowyers in the book because I'm.
36:35
I'm showing them all the photos so I can get all the captions,
36:38
right? Because we're kind of down into
36:40
the final nitty gritty details, but everything needs to be
36:43
vetted. So I've had literally on pretty
36:46
much all of the writing, I've had like 14 sets, well, actually
36:49
15. I've brought in another expert
36:51
on a lot of it to, to really make sure all the technical
36:54
details are accurate. And just like when I write a
36:59
little descriptor paragraph about the American flat bow or
37:03
about the English Longbow or about the Malagabat, it's
37:06
amazing how many differing opinions there are about it.
37:10
And so I've I'll send it out to my team like, no, no, this is
37:14
wrong. And the next person's like, no,
37:15
that's the way. And it's just like, wow, OK,
37:18
Like, there's so much. I started getting really
37:21
interested in those sort of mesolithic Stone Age bows and
37:25
made a bow which I thought was a Home Guard bow.
37:27
Posted it on a forum and then someone was like that's not a
37:30
Home Guard, it's a Malagabat. And then I got and I changed the
37:34
name to a Molly Gravette and then someone message me saying
37:36
it's not a Molly gravette, it's a harness sunbow or harness
37:39
sandbow. And I just realized how much
37:43
misinformation there is out there that all these bows are
37:46
named the same and and it's just so hard to to work out what the
37:52
actual bow was like. It wasn't until there was, I
37:56
think it was the guy from Stone Age Bows Axel.
38:00
Yeah, he he was really useful because he's obviously like a
38:03
bit of a specialist in that area.
38:04
So it was really useful getting hearing from him what they were
38:08
all actually like in the dimensions and making sure that
38:10
I'm naming them properly. Yeah, well, one of one of the
38:13
things to remember too, with a lot of these archaeological
38:16
sites like Home Guard or Malaga Bat, where they've discovered
38:20
the bows, often they're discovering more than one or
38:23
they're discovering bow fragments and they're piercing
38:25
them together. And just like now, if you know,
38:29
1000 years from now, our bows are discovered, there's going to
38:32
be so many different shapes and proportions and sizes.
38:34
And so, yeah, I, I don't imagine like the villagers and the Home
38:39
Guard were like, this is the design and we have to stick
38:41
exactly to this. Like no one can deviate from
38:44
this design. Of course there would have been
38:45
experimentation, there would have been half finished bows,
38:48
there would have been shit bows that were about to break, bows
38:50
that did break. I guess we're getting all of
38:54
those things. And so I think it is other than
38:57
like the the Mary Rose English long bows where we have these
39:00
perfectly preserved specimens that were functional bows with
39:04
all of these Neolithic and Mesolithic bows.
39:06
Yeah, it's, it's it's rare to have something that's perfectly
39:10
preserved. And if there is one, well, it
39:12
doesn't mean that all the others are going to be identical to
39:14
that. Yeah, they do still have, there
39:17
are a lot of similar traits there and they're like it's
39:20
normally always very thin tips or at least or at least
39:24
drastically sort of tapering towards the outer thirds, which
39:28
obviously shows how useful that is.
39:30
And I I noticed that when I made which I eventually realized it
39:34
was the harness sand bow. I've not even heard of that one.
39:38
What is that one? It's called harness sand, I
39:41
think it is. Where's that from?
39:44
It's Denmark again. I believe it's.
39:46
So many bows from Denmark. I'll look.
39:49
At it because I think it's what a lot of people call a Malaga
39:53
bet whereas the Malaga bet was apparently a really small bow.
39:59
So I don't know why that name seemed to catch on more than the
40:02
others. Maybe it's just because it's
40:03
it's a cool sounding name. Molly Gabe.
40:05
Yeah, but yeah, it was closer to the harness and replica and OK,
40:12
it was just yes, so fast and snappy with those with those
40:16
really skinny tips right. I was.
40:19
I was so impressed with how well it performed.
40:22
Yeah, So harness, I'm probably butchering it.
40:25
I don't know how to say it, but Northern European Mesolithic
40:31
bow, 7000 years old, a modern long limb versions are crafted
40:37
based on the ancient design. OK, yeah, it's not telling me a
40:41
whole lot about it, but all right, it's out there.
40:45
I've never heard of it. Yeah, I think there's there's
40:49
loads, isn't there? There's there's a lot more than
40:51
probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:55
It's and it's fun to to study all these and learn from them.
40:59
And even the experts like Chuck Loffler, who makes replica bows,
41:03
he, he shared with me that even the experts in like the museums
41:08
and whatnot, they'll get the wood type wrong.
41:10
Like, it's really hard to even know what type of wood these
41:13
things are because I guess they're not taking core samples
41:16
because you drill into one of these bows and you're ruining
41:18
it. And so it's all, for the most
41:21
part, it's just through vision. And he said once some of these
41:24
woods get to be thousands of years old, it's really, really
41:27
tricky to know, like, what is this?
41:29
So yeah, there's so many variables out there, but that's
41:33
what keeps it fun and keeps a lively debate about what it is
41:37
that we're carving and what it most resembles or what it's
41:40
inspired by. Yeah.
41:42
Yeah, definitely. So yeah, I wanted to make a lot
41:46
more of those sort of Mesolithic style bows.
41:49
I had a go at the Mere Heath as well.
41:51
Yeah. And, and it just, it wasn't nice
41:54
to shoot at all. It was just really sort of just
41:58
so much hand shock and just felt really clumbersome.
42:02
But I might have designed it way off what the original was.
42:09
But yeah, I thought that was a really interesting book.
42:11
So it just looks huge. I don't know if that just the
42:14
replicas are making it look bigger than what it was, but
42:17
it's just just really wide, even right out into to near the outer
42:21
limbs. Yeah, so.
42:27
Yeah, that and where is that in English based?
42:31
Must say I think that was found. And the Mirror Heath Bog, Yeah.
42:35
Yeah, it's got that cool binding all the way around it as well,
42:40
which I've still not added that onto the bow yet, but I do want
42:43
to do that. Oh, really, really unique look.
42:48
Oh, yeah, There's some pictures of it.
42:51
Interesting. Yeah.
42:52
It's it's so fun just to experiment with all these
42:56
different types. And I think mastery is a long,
42:59
long, long, long way in the future for most of us.
43:02
And that's, that was something even that the Bowers who are
43:05
featured in in the book, where we're like a lot of them have
43:08
been doing this for decades and decades.
43:10
Like, no, I'm still not a master at it.
43:11
Like it's still learning from it.
43:14
Every bow I make. It's really, really cool that
43:16
way. What What are you working on
43:21
right now? I've actually got a Commission
43:25
project from somebody in America that wants the Saint Andrew's
43:29
bow making, but he managed to find like the PDF file for it
43:34
and everything. So we were kind of piercing
43:37
together between us what we think it would have been like.
43:40
Because again, that's a fragmented bow.
43:42
We, we only know what half of it was and they've just doubled
43:47
that half and said the bow was, was probably this length, which
43:53
is quite short. I think they predicted it was
43:56
around 5052 inches, something like that.
44:00
But I'm thinking the bow is very unlikely to have broken directly
44:05
in the middle. So for me, I feel like it was
44:08
probably probably longer, but. You think it was asymmetrical?
44:16
I don't think you can tell because of we've just got one
44:19
limb, but. We just got 1 limb and so you're
44:21
saying like you don't know whether it's broken in the
44:24
handle or where on that limb it's broken?
44:26
Yeah, it's hard to tell what the exact length was, but he he
44:29
originally wanted it shorter, but was kind of wanting a bit of
44:33
a longer draw length out of it, kind of still wanting a 26 inch
44:37
draw length out of this stave that was maybe 48 inches.
44:40
So I managed to convince him for it to be a bit longer.
44:44
So we've gone with 54 inches and I'm hoping to get a 35 lbs at 26
44:49
from it, which I think is easily doable because this piece of you
44:52
that I'm doing it with, it's just still holding so much
44:55
strength to it. I keep removing lots of wood and
44:57
it's just barely budging. So.
45:00
And it surprised me because it's mostly SAP wood in in the piece
45:03
that I'm using. I thought it would just be quite
45:06
a lot weaker than something that was all hot wood, but yeah, it's
45:09
really surprising. UE is amazing, amazing wood.
45:12
There's no wonder why it's been used so much for so many bows
45:16
over all different continents. Do you experiment with backing
45:22
on your bows? No, never have.
45:26
It's just something I'm not really interested in because
45:29
it's time consuming. For one, I don't like anything
45:32
that takes too long. I'd rather just get the bow
45:35
finished and then move on to another one.
45:37
And I always try and keep it as natural as possible.
45:41
I know it is relatively natural if you've got a sinew back in or
45:43
something like that. But yeah, I've just never found
45:46
the need to as well, especially because I'm working with self
45:49
bows. The the back is stronger than
45:53
the belly anyway. So most, most wood is stronger
45:56
in tension than compression. So if you're going to get the
45:59
bow break, it's most likely going to be on the belly or if
46:03
you've if you've accidentally damaged the back.
46:05
So I just always find if you keep that the the outer growth
46:09
ring of the back intact, then you shouldn't need a back in any
46:12
way. And any composite bows doesn't
46:17
sound like you've made. Any you haven't tried that?
46:19
Yeah. And do you ever have is sapling
46:21
so small that you need to add like a little bit of meat in the
46:24
handle or no? Because you you say most of your
46:27
bows are bendy handle anyway, right?
46:29
Yeah, yeah. I've never never really found
46:31
that you could always keep enough chunk in the handle, and
46:35
I've made quite a few with a natural handle cut out of it,
46:38
but it's all still one piece of wood.
46:41
But I've always found when I'm making boded handles that it's
46:44
so hard to to get the fades right and not waste any of the
46:50
the bow from there's not bending so often it's just a really
46:54
stiff handle and then you've got less of less working limb.
46:58
So that's why I much prefer just making a bendy handle with yeah,
47:02
with no actual cut out handle section and no fades.
47:06
I just much prefer that and I think it looks nicer as well.
47:09
The teller, when you get that, when you get that bending
47:12
handle, I just think it's just such a smoother looking teller.
47:16
What tools do you like to use? So I do almost all of the work
47:22
with a draw knife until I get to closer to final dimensions and
47:26
then I'll switch to a card scraper, which is just an
47:29
absolute game changer. So I'll realize how effective
47:32
card scrapers were and how clean it leaves the bow as well.
47:35
You just don't really get any tool marks with it.
47:38
I occasionally use a rasp as well if there's like a knotty
47:41
area. But yeah, mostly just draw knife
47:44
and and cabinet scraper really. Is there a particular brand?
47:48
Or. Type of draw knife that you go
47:49
to. I've just got 1 and I use that.
47:52
For everything, I think it's a Ray Iles 1.
47:54
So it's one of those ones like quite a chunky one with a sturdy
47:56
handle and then you do. Bevel down or bevel up?
48:01
What's that? I think it'd be beveled down.
48:07
I'm not entirely. I'm not entirely sure it's
48:11
beveled down. If the there's kind of the IT is
48:16
hard to explain, but where it is tapered, there's that there's
48:20
the obvious, there's the line that is the edge, the sharp
48:23
edge. And then back from that where
48:25
the tapering ends, there's the line where it kind of it blends
48:28
with the rest of the draw knife. So that's kind of the bevel.
48:30
So if that's facing down, that's bevel down.
48:33
If you can see that then it's bevel up and I'm.
48:37
Asking because I worked. With 14 boggers for this book
48:41
and it was interesting to see how there was a there was a
48:45
variation and how they did it. I'm like Waylon Olive at
48:48
Swiftwood bows pretty much always uses bevel side down.
48:51
And then I went next, I think it was like Corey Hawk at organic
48:54
archery. He always does bevel side up.
48:56
So I might have those backwards or or wrong, but yeah, it's
48:59
there's always a OK, yeah, I didn't even know.
49:02
There was a different way, yeah, Waylon described Waylon.
49:06
Described it with the bevel side down.
49:10
The draw knife always wants to come up towards the surface so
49:14
it's safer. If the bevel side is up, then
49:17
the draw knife always wants to dig in and so it's a bit more
49:20
dangerous. I'm definitely down.
49:23
Then yeah, because yeah, you're, it's a lot safer.
49:27
The. Yeah, the way it is, it doesn't
49:28
want to dig into the wood. It always wants to come up.
49:30
So yeah, it must be bubbled down.
49:32
OK, Yeah. Any power tools?
49:37
No. Other than when I'm using a
49:39
drill, which is very rare. Yeah, yeah.
49:42
Never really use power. Tools.
49:45
Nice. And what do you you?
49:47
Mentioned one. Finish.
49:50
I don't remember. You said what?
49:51
Do you normally finish your bows in?
49:53
It's normally always. Linseed oil at least for the
49:56
base and then some of them I put varnish on, mostly with the the
50:00
bulk on bows. I feel like varnish is the best
50:02
deal for that. But yeah, I want to try some
50:05
like true oil in Danish oil. Some of those finishes look
50:08
really good. So I know shellac as well.
50:10
I want to try that. Yeah, Yeah, I would.
50:13
Say those are the most. Common shellac, Tung oil, True
50:17
oil that a lot of the people who work with you use Tung oil.
50:25
I noticed it's very common. Do you know why?
50:29
What the reason? Is.
50:30
I don't know. I, I just do what the, the
50:33
experts tell me now I've now that I've made, I've, I've used
50:38
so many different types of finishing now and I've actually
50:40
never had one that's been like, oh, this is shit.
50:42
So I think, I think there's a kind of advantages to all of
50:47
them. I once did shellac where I think
50:50
I just, I didn't mix it. I didn't have the right
50:52
proportion of flakes and so I had to send that off and kind of
50:56
redo it again. But yeah, tung oil I've used a
51:00
lot. I mean, it's just easy to apply,
51:02
but I will apply like 7 coats of tung oil and then and then
51:07
finish it with like a floor wax. OK, Yeah, yeah.
51:10
Wax I. Haven't used wax a bit.
51:12
That is useful. Yeah, I'm in.
51:14
I'm in a really. Humid environment so I need to
51:16
try to keep the moisture out, so I'll finish all of mine with wax
51:19
if if the finishing doesn't have some sort of coating in it.
51:26
Yeah. And then I'm I'm normally
51:27
putting his. Handle wrap on them.
51:29
So I just do that with either linen or hemp just, yeah, just
51:33
wax that and then just a little bit of glue and then create a
51:37
wrap where it sort of ties itself in.
51:40
I've still not learned how to stitch leather.
51:42
That's something I want to do. But I found handle wraps quite
51:47
fine anyway. And it, it fits my primitive
51:49
style very well because most of my bows are, yeah, very
51:52
primitive looking bows. And obviously you can't, you
51:55
don't need a handle wrap on it. But I find especially beginners,
51:59
sometimes you give them a bow and they're holding it like
52:02
halfway up one of the limbs. Yeah.
52:04
So I'm late to see that. So I always like a handle wrap
52:07
on it so that they know exactly where to hold the bow.
52:10
Yeah. Yeah.
52:11
And there's a lot. Of natural barks that you can
52:16
use for the handle wrap, like I did one with let's see, air
52:20
strikes, beer, it's Sparrow bows.
52:22
We did a Birch bark handle wrap which was really cool.
52:25
That's really cool. It's supposed to be really more.
52:26
Moisture resistant as well, isn't it?
52:28
But yeah. And then with Simon.
52:31
Kell at self boast dot chapter, we carved A laburnum bow and we
52:36
just used the kind of cambium of that laburnum stave and wrapped
52:40
it around the handle and just applied it with like I don't
52:44
remember whether we. Used an animal.
52:46
Like a sinew base glue or just a normal commercial glue, but
52:51
basically just made a handle out of that cambium, which is really
52:54
cool. It's very primitive looking, but
52:57
it kind of solves that function that you were saying.
52:59
It shows where the handle is and it's gives you a little
53:03
something to to hold on to. But the leather work is
53:06
surprisingly, I don't want to say easy, but with the right
53:11
tools, once you get into it, it's like, OK, yeah, this is
53:14
actually, yeah, I, I had a similar in my mind.
53:18
I was making it, I would look at leather handles and be like,
53:21
wow, so beautiful. How did you do that?
53:22
And then I started doing, I'm like, oh, OK, yeah, it's not.
53:26
Yeah. I think it's just one of those
53:27
things where you just need. To practice a little bit and
53:29
then you soon get the knack of it.
53:30
Same with arrow making it. I've just never really put the
53:33
time into it because I think it would help me out a lot as well.
53:37
People are often asking if I can sell arrows as well and I don't,
53:41
but I've got my friend that I speak to him about that helps me
53:45
with the staves. He's he is a Fletcher as well.
53:47
So we're just just sorted something out with him today
53:50
where he's going to help supply arrows for my bows.
53:52
So quite excited to be able to do that and I think it will
53:55
increase my sales as well. Nice.
54:00
Yeah, I've not really. Gotten into arrow making.
54:02
I've made some but one thing at a time find it very boring.
54:06
I do arrow. Making definitely in monogamous,
54:10
yeah. That's how I find it.
54:13
Yeah, yeah. Where can people find more about
54:16
you Joe? So the main 1 is.
54:19
Instagram, which is at Wildwood Bows spelled WILD wood boa.
54:29
I still really need to get on Facebook because I think I think
54:32
there's a a better demographic on Facebook.
54:35
It seems to be more people interested in archery and bow
54:38
maker on Facebook. So I'm definitely going to get
54:41
one of those pages set up soon. But yeah, it's just just
54:44
Instagram and then Etsy as well, which is Wildwood Boea or so.
54:52
Awesome, I'll put those things in the show.
54:53
Notes Thank you for reaching out and for your willingness to chat
54:58
with me today. I really appreciate it.
55:02
Especially because I've listened to the podcast before as well.
55:06
Never, never thought I'd be on it, but this is great.
55:10
Yeah, Cool. Well, I'm.
55:11
Happy to chat with you. So thank you and good luck with
55:14
everything. Thank you and you, yeah, best of
55:16
luck with the. Book and hopefully make a second
55:18
one as well. Yeah, I'm fingers crossed.
55:22
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