Latest / Checked In / Why You Should Be Proud to Read Romance
Transcript
- Taylor: Welcome to Checked In, a mother-daughter cultural deep dive podcast where each episode we unpack the topics we can't stop talking about. I'm Taylor, I'm the daughter. Jenny Gumm: I'm Jenny and I'm the mom. Taylor: And this week we're looking at the devaluation of women's media, especially in romance literature. So mom, what are you checking in on this week? Jenny Gumm: So I just got back from Chicago where I used to live. now I live in San Francisco, and I definitely noticed a different vibe in the city. As much as it was beautiful, and the one thing I kind of forgot about Chicago is because you think of the lake and the high-rises, is how green it is. Everything was in full bloom, the flowers and all the trees. And so it's just super lush. I went for a walk down by the lake, and even at the lake, there's just Because there's parks and everything by it, it's just so, so lush. And that's not something we have in San Francisco. But one thing I definitely noticed is there's this definite hustle and bustle to the city where it just feels like way more busy. Everybody's going somewhere, where in San Francisco, when you walk around, it's definitely more laid back, which is what I'm used to. However, I have always thought, because when I started working, I worked with a lot of people who had transferred to California from the Midwest, and they used to always say that we didn't have a good work ethic. But what I actually realized is it's not a work ethic, it's how hyped up you are. And in California, a lot of times, or at least for me, I'm just low-key and take things as they come, deal with things as they go, and don't get super amped up. Where even in Chicago, it's that little bit more conservative, a little bit more formal, not nearly like New York, but a little more amped up, which Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: to me just doesn't add anything. However, the one thing that I do appreciate is unlike some cities in this country and in the world, they take their service super. People are professionals in the service industry. And so everywhere I went and ate, I had impeccable service. And it just reminded me that there's good in every place. However, it was nice to come home to my good old low-key San Francisco vibe. Taylor: It's so interesting because I'm married to someone, and I live in New York, but I'm married to someone who is very go go go. And like I feel like he both loves and hates that New York is such a like work hard, play hard location, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: even though that's completely his personality. but I don't feel that way at all here. 'Cause I'm just like that's not who I am, so maybe I just don't even like and I don't really go into Manhattan very often except for on the weekends. My like set cultural center is in Brooklyn and I think I'm just like, I don't even notice that people are so committed to working. But Jenny Gumm: Yeah, it's not the commitment to work, I don't think, because I think people here are committed to work. It's just more the way they approach things. I mean, it's just more serious. And most of our jobs are not life or death. So certainly working hard and taking the work seriously and doing a good job is I find in both places, or equally not, if you know it's not for everybody. It's just more of the If something goes wrong and how we're moving through the day kind of thing, it's just more way more easy going here. And like you can almost like I felt it almost as I was landing the plane in the plane. It was super weird. Taylor: Yeah, especially because it's so tech centered. I'm it's kind Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: of surprising to hear that. Jenny Gumm: Yeah, I don't know if it's just Yeah, I don't know. Something for everybody. What's going on with you this week? Taylor: So I am I decided to stick with the romance theme, and I'm about to leave for a week long trip, which means I am thinking about which books I'm going to bring. And I sometimes like to do a reread. And so I'm checking in on one of my favorite romance books ever, contemporary, which is We Could Be So Good by Kat Sebastian. It's a Jenny Gumm: That's a good one. Taylor: gay historical romance set in I think like 1960s New York City so it's really fun I know all the cross streets in the East Village it's I love a New York book like probably all New Yorkers but it's just a really great soft gentle romance that gets the history right and I love all of her books but her like mid-century novels like are my favorites it's like not a super I haven't come across many books from that time period romance books that are like them and I just feel like she's nailed the craft so highly recommend Jenny Gumm: Yeah, I think she gets the history right without making it overbearing in the books. It's part of the story. The city's kind of part of the story. The history's part of the story. but it's not heavy handed. Doesn't take over. Taylor: And the romance is realistic. I Jenny Gumm: Yeah, that's true too. Taylor: I read some books that will put like queer normative Jenny Gumm: Mm. Taylor: narratives to the past or like in fantasy or sci-fi and that is super interesting and maybe a bit more satisfying of an ending but her novels stay to what it would actually be like to be in a relationship like a same-sex relationship of the time which is just the truth of the matter like Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: we don't live in like a fairy tale land so Jenny Gumm: No, we don't. Taylor: Okay, so Jenny Gumm: Mm. Taylor: As I foreshadowed a little bit with my book, we're gonna look at the devaluation of women's media, looking specifically at romance novels. And I want to give a big caveat at the beginning of the episode because I feel like so much of this conversation is naturally gendered, because so much of the Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: writing about this topic has so much to do with like what do women read? What do men read? Romance historically is like heterosexual man. Man, woman, dating, married, everything conventional. we're Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Taylor: gonna, yeah, we're gonna talk like that in this episode. There's gonna be some, yeah, like gendered language, but we just wanna put out there that we know that's not all there is. And we know that more in contemporary, there's Better representation with like queer relationships, different gender identities, even like asexual narratives. We know that they all exist. That's not what this conversation is about. but we just wanna let people know we're not like gender essentialist, it's just kind of the nature of the topic. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, yeah, and I think it is naturally it has been gendered due to history. Taylor: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: because the romance hasn't always been taken seriously, like many Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: things that are specifically women. And I think I taught I mentioned to you earlier that I found research that literally Nathaniel Hawthorne. was sneering and saying sneering at the damned mob of scribbling women in the nineteenth century. So the history of this genre not being taken very seriously does go back a bit. And so Taylor: So Jenny Gumm: even though it's a huge seller, I think, which is ironic. Taylor: I mean, Bravo is a hugely popular. Not that romance is as ch whatever. All all all consumption is consumption. before we get into kind of like the history and more taking a critical look, what's like your relationship with romance novels and reading romance or watching romance? Jenny Gumm: Yeah. So my mom was a big believer that I think I'm gonna mention this before, but that you could read, I could read anything. If I could get it from the library, if I could go, you know, buy it, whatever, I could read it. She didn't really, she her belief was that my imagination would only cut because in a book you have to imagine it, and you would imagine it the age that you are at and what you could possibly imagine. excuse me. So my first not romance novel that I remember reading was The Thornbirds. And I was probably like 11 or 12 and we were going on a road trip. And I'm is not known for having patients on road trips. And so my mom wanted to get me something that would keep me busy. And if for any of you who have read it, it's a very long book. And yeah, Taylor: I see. Jenny Gumm: it's super long. And so that is my first remembrance of them. But I have read, I mean, to me, and we can talk about this, there's romance, there's romanticy, but over the years I've read all the Anne Rice vampire books. I've read back in the day some Harlow romance. So I've kind of read and then now still read them. Like Mia Rom com, like Mia Romanticy, so s have enjoyed the genre though for a a really long time. Taylor: And is it like if people asked you about your reading diet, would you include romance in it? Jenny Gumm: You know, I probably wouldn't until we were talking about this because I would have said, I like vampire books and I like, you know, historical novels. But yeah, it would. It does. And and see, and to me, that's even to for me to think, but I do. I like the romance of it. And it's not it's nice sometimes to just read something that is both interesting but an easy read and just Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: fulfills that need to just escape a little. Taylor: Totally. Jenny Gumm: How about you? What's your Taylor: I think that romance came on my radar as a thing, like in like capital letter letter T thing, Jenny Gumm: Uh-huh. Taylor: when I was 11 and I must have first watched the Pride and Prejudice movie because I kind of think Jenny Gumm: yeah. Taylor: the Even though Pride and Prejudice is probably the most plainly written Jane Austen novel, I still Jenny Gumm: Mm-hmm. Taylor: think that would have been a bit challenging for an eleven year old had I not had the narrative structure from the Jenny Gumm: yeah. Taylor: movie. So I think you must have taken me to the movie first. And then Twilight happened. And I feel like that's when I like got the more like perrant, you know, like Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: interest, even though that book is very like has some pretty like puritanical views on sex and marriage Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: and like dating. So, which is funny, but I don't think as a child you're like totally clocked or like teen. I was a teen when those books came out. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: You're not totally clocked into those things. You're just like, ooh, they broke the bed. Jenny Gumm: I haven't read any of the Twilight books. I don't even know. I'm trying to think if I saw the movie. I'm not sure. I probably did. I think I took it maybe we went to the first one. I can't remember. Taylor: Yeah, but I and then I think that even though the narratives really appeal to me, I probably didn't read romance very heavily until the last maybe five years. when I started reading the Some Romanticy, the Emily Henry books, and those kind of got me so heavily back into it, and it is a huge part of my reading like diet. I read tons of it. I read kind of a bit of everything, but I do love a romance novel and I like I love reading ones that kind of push the boundaries and like give you like different narratives, do fun stuff, but it's it's a huge, huge part of my life. I even do a romance book club once a month at a bookstore near my house. So it's become a huge a bigger part of my life in the past like five years. So it's fun. Jenny Gumm: Yeah, I was gonna say they Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: just opened a romance bookstore in San Francisco. I'm gonna go to. I know, me too. I think I took I don't think I took a break. I mean, for a long time I was reading a lot of nonfiction for I went down the Buddha rab Buddhist rabbit hole, but then also for work, because I've always worked, I've done a lot of leadership reading and those things. Always though it's been fun now and it's I usually have two or three books going at the same time and I always have one romance going now, which has been fun to come back to. Cause I don't know, do you consider yourself to be ro a romantic person? Taylor: Yes and no. I think I'm a very romantic person in the sense that I am a like very like idealistic person. so I think I just am a little bit delusional in Some of the ways I wish the world would be or like wish life would be like. I can I tend to romanticize things in good and bad ways. But I mean I I am married to pretty much the first person I seriously dated. So I don't have Jenny Gumm: Okay. Taylor: very much like experience being an adult. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: having a romantic life. So like my first adult relationship is the one that I'm like in for however long we last or whatever. But you know, like hopefully forever. But yeah, so I have a hard time answering that because it's the like ins and outs of a romance novel are not something that has ever been part of my life. You know? Jenny Gumm: Yeah. No, and I don't think I consider myself very roman I wouldn't consider myself romantic. Yet I do when I read the tropes and read the books and everything, I definitely connect to it. So it's inter it's been interesting for me because I wouldn't consider myself to be that way necessarily. But then I realize there is a part of me that maybe is the the idealistic part, the glass is always half full, the you know, rooting for the underdogs, all of that part of me that just loves loves the stories. Taylor: And it is, there's just something very satisfying when the relationship. I mean, it's the same in a rom-com. Like when you're really Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: rooting for characters, like we all know what it feels like to feel loved, whether it's romantic or friendship or family. And y it does feel like a fitting win when you Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: get to see people experience that. Cause it is. sort of universal feeling like even like a love for a pet, you just have that like overwhelming sense and it does feel so good to read or watch someone get that. yeah. Jenny Gumm: It does. Yeah. Taylor: So I thought maybe I could give you a little history about romance novels, especially because I do think something we have not brought up yet. but is that there is like a changing landscape of consent and like consent narratives Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: that have happened in romance. And that does complicate things because even though we're basically saying, we love it, there are there are things that are wrong. Jenny Gumm: There are some problematic tropes, yes. Taylor: So, starting off, so the first best-selling romance novel was actually in 1740. It's called Pamela. Jenny Gumm: wow. Taylor: And something I learned about this that made me laugh is that they made merch for this book, which included like paintings on like teacups and fans. I did not know that merch even happened like that. Jenny Gumm: No, I didn't either. Taylor: And so romance is like a sub-genre stemming from like the comedy. So like everyone knows Shakespeare. Jenny Gumm: okay. Taylor: had the comedies and the tragedies. And so romance kind of is like a sub of the comedic genre. So that's I feel like is a good way to kind of think about even the way that romance has the happily ever after. That totally makes sense when you think of comedy as its like umbrella. Jenny Gumm: Mm-hmm. As its parent, kind of, yeah. Taylor: Yeah, and then you get more romance novels with critical acclaim like Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, basically, yeah, all the Jane Austen novels. And Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Those are kind of like women writers, women writing for women. They were acclaimed Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: in their time, but they also garnered a lot of criticism. Something I read, I read this book called Jane Austen's Bookshelf. And something the author details in that book is that at the time that Jane Austen was kind of growing up and writing, novels were thought of as like. bad for women, bad for the populace, and they were called like devilish by certain like writers of the time. because at the same time as the novel getting popularity, so were these conduct books that were mostly to tell women Jenny Gumm: Okay. Taylor: how to behave. And Jenny Gumm: So were the novels because they were fictional or was it the stories they were telling, do you think? Or both? Was there more historical, Taylor: I think because Jenny Gumm: like a more view of historical reading, or like reading about plants and trees, or I what kind of what's the difference? Taylor: It was leisure activity. Jenny Gumm: Okay. Yeah. Taylor: And it was written that it could make you lazy, basically. And this Jenny Gumm: okay. Taylor: was especially a problem for women. Jenny Gumm: Yes. Taylor: But you can see kind of I think that's an interesting backdrop for women to be writing about not only to be writing novels, but to be writing romance novels, which Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: were like doubly derided. But then Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: also they did receive acclaim in their time and criticism in their time. And I mean, I think Pride and Prejudice might be the most like famous romance novel of all. Yes, today. Today. Yeah. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Today, yes, I think so, for sure. Yeah. Because who knows what novel's been written right now. Yeah. Wow. Taylor: That's true. but Jenny Gumm: Yeah, if you think about the times for these books to be getting published, for these books to be getting acclaim, it was pretty in the in the forefront because I mean it was times were changing, but times had still not changed in the views of women's role in society. I mean, lest we forget how long it took us to be Taylor: Yeah, and Jenny Gumm: able to vote. Taylor: Yeah, and I think I think it's just interesting that kind of those two became popular at the same Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: time as both were considered something negative. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: but yet like the popularity was so like those books were blockbusters of their time. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Everyone wanted to read them. And then we do like moving into the 20th century, there like there starts to become a major shift with the female protagonists. In the earlier books, a lot of it is you're watching a woman on a journey to acquire some sort of like independence, some sort of agency Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: over her life. and sometimes that can be through marriage, but oftentimes it's through herself. Jenny Gumm: Mm-hmm. Taylor: If you think about, I mean Jane Eyre's a good example. In the end, she's the one who goes to Rochester Jenny Gumm: Mm-hmm. Taylor: once she's kind of figured herself out. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: In Pride and Prejudice, Darcy proposes twice, but it takes Elizabeth going through and figuring everything out for herself. but then in the 20th century, you get you don't have to do so much heavy lifting to give the woman agency. A lot Jenny Gumm: Mm-hmm. Taylor: of times the heroines start with a lot more agency over their time. Even in, so there was this writer, Georgette Hayer, who basically is the mother of all historical romance. and kind of started the trend with Regency romance, and all of her heroes and heroines kind of possessed modern sensibilities or modern for her time, which I think is a huge trend you see now because you don't Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: really want to see the reality of the times for women in some of these books. But I do think that's like they start out with money, they start out with an ability to make choices, they they have a lot more going for them. And I think that's kind of like how we transition into the more modern novel that we're more familiar with. And so you hear a lot about like a Harlequin romance, right? Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Or like a bodice ripper. And there was the Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: first bodice ripper was in 1972, Kathleen E. Woody Wise, The Flame and the Flower. And that is like, this is where we start to get the more troubling narratives. And I was wondering why that was happening. And I figured it out. I actually finally Jenny Gumm: You did. Taylor: I got an answer. Yes, the it wasn't so much that the writers were thinking women needed the rape narrative, it was that the romance industry, so like the publishers, did not believe that women would accept n premarital sex without a rape element. Jenny Gumm: well, because if you think about it, that was when the women's movement was coming in and all the backlash against it was there to and the whole discourse about Taylor: Mm. Jenny Gumm: premarital sex and all of that. So against that, so basically they were saying they were allowing women to have a fantasy without feeling bad about it, kind Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: of. That they because it wasn't they it wasn't of their own. They w they weren't the one pursuing it. They were being pursued. Or pursued is a nice way. Taylor: Yes, but this was something more yeah the euphemism. But it it's interesting that it was led by Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Huh. Taylor: the industry versus Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: the actual like people of the time and it goes away quickly like in the 1980s Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: that's like Nora Roberts starts writing in the 1980s Jenny Gumm: Yeah, yeah. Taylor: and this is like when the rape narratives go away there's more now I would say a lot of romance has the best consent you'll ever read or experience. Jenny Gumm: Yes, true. That's true. Taylor: but yeah the narrative starts shifting in the 80s and that's more when we get into like the current day. But I just thought it would be good to give everyone I mean this is a long time. Like nine Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: 1740 is a long time ago and it's been popular the whole time in some form or the other. Jenny Gumm: popular and where it both got recognition, it also got derision. Which yeah, I kind of make sense given the genre, and especially if it started out as something that people felt like was not benefiting women in the roles of their times. However, it's interesting that they still, because I mean, if you think of those books, they're so well written, they're so engaging that they're still getting acclaim. And I think that's what this, I mean, this whole genre is kind of that mixed bag of it's so popular. I mean, I think it's is a roma, why can't I never say that? The romanticy, I think that's one of the number one selling genres right now, isn't it? Taylor: Yeah, romance and then romantic, fantasy, and then thrillers Jenny Gumm: Okay. Taylor: are like below. But yeah, I mean I think It especially it's been since 2020 where romance and romanticy have I mean romance has always been popular, but that rise Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: in romanticy especially has been since 2020 where ex like sales have exploded in an unreal way. And I think I think you can see a lot of that on book talk. And I know at least from my friends, like a cord of thorn and roses hit our friend group like a bomb. Like Jenny Gumm: And then I read it because you told me you recommended. I guess we should say that Taylor often recommends the books I read because she does read more than I do these days. so yeah, I think so. I think one of the other things, honey, that you found in the history, and I was just thinking about too is that one of the things that they do think also helped with the current popul is the explosion is the E book. in e publishing. And I wonder if that has anything to do too with I mean, I know I was so excited to get to the Kindle because, you know, I was getting about a book a day delivered to two things. One is there was no more room. But also it all it if you have a book being delivered, I didn't even think then about what I was reading. I just grabbed what I wanted to read and didn't even give a thought for two things. One for storage and also you know, what I might be carrying around. So I wonder if that also allowed people just more access, but also less embarrassment about the genre. Taylor: Yeah, I I think so. I also think there's two things. One, they've kind of shifted away from those like sexy covers that I Jenny Gumm: Yeah, that's true too. Taylor: I love those, but I'm deep. I'm deep in my Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: love for romance. I think they're so funny. now you get a very the cartoon cover. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. It's a cartoon, it's more kitschy, it's more bright colors. Well, don't you remember like the ones used to be like the dark colors, the greens and the super well, yeah, exactly. Taylor: Fabio, he literally became famous from being on the top of or on the cover of Harlequin novels. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. So Taylor: I yeah, I I do love them. I will actually, I have such a good Emily Henry quote that I found, and she is one of my favorite authors, but Jenny Gumm: And Taylor: they were interviewing her on romance, and she does say that about the the like cutesy covers, she says, you feel like you can read on the train or in the doctor's office without fear of judgment, she says. Then once you discover how much you love romance novels, the fear of judgment dissipates away and Can you accept how stupid it is to waste time or energy being embarrassed to love genuinely wonderful books? Jenny Gumm: For sure. Yeah. Taylor: But I think you're right. Like not having to show like a naked man, like holding a woman Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: on the cover, it does it helps a lot, I think. Like that Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: is that's really shouting your love versus just talking about it. But I think the e publishing thing also kind of lowers a barrier to Jenny Gumm: Mm-hmm. Taylor: publishing that makes it possible. I mean of course that's means that some bad books are gonna get published, but Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: it gives more avenues for people with different points of view, like marginalized communities to get their Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: narratives out. Things are a little too freaky for traditional publishing. I think that that it kinda just like widens the net, which I do think is necessary. You see what's traditionally published and it can be pretty white hetero. Jenny Gumm: Yeah, pretty mainstream, pretty yeah, more aligned with what the current politics and policies are and practices. I think to your point, the e-publishing allows people to get ahead of things and to create new ideas and new genres. I think one of the other things when I was doing some research, I found is that men and women's reading habits are very different. And so consequently, I think that that also, I mean, it kind of goes back to what you were saying in the eighteen hundreds was they were worried about women reading these things and thinking it was bad for them. I don't think that that's the case now, but I do think that potentially, I mean, the context we all live in is the patriarchy. And so I think if something is just more popular with women, it may not be taken as seriously. And to your point, I think with the e-publishing in any genre. There are probably some, I mean, the bar of being well written has gotten lower. However, I think going back to our last episode where we talked about choice is it's less an issue about the genre and more an issue of if you're reading a book and it doesn't click with you either because of the language or the story, then you just stop reading it. And so we all have that choice. So I think trying to lump the the the books just aren't well written, that could be true of any genre, but I think it more specifically often gets applied to the genre. however, Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: you know, the context we live in, that makes sense. Taylor: Well something I'm noticing is like when someone thinks that a romance book or a fantasy book or a horror book is badly written, they're like, it's badly written. When someone reads like a literary fiction novel that sucks, they're like, I didn't click with the style. Do you know what I mean? Jenny Gumm: Yeah, I know. Or you know what? I just may not be smart enough to understand. It's almost like we criticize Taylor: And sometimes it's like Jenny Gumm: ourselves instead of criticizing the book. Yeah. Taylor: Yeah, and I think I think especially with like a fantasy or a romance novel, I feel like both those genres do skew towards up like planar writing. You know. Jenny Gumm: Mm-hmm. Taylor: Not always, obviously, but like most fantasy novels, they're so driven by plot that you're not getting Jenny Gumm: No. Taylor: like purple prose in and nor would you really want it. So I do think there is this, I guess, stigma against all genres, which is really silly because I do think those are better avenues to start your reading journey than other Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: books. Like I don't think you should read a confusing litfic book first. I think Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: You should probably start with something that's like a movie you like. we were talking earlier about graphic novels. I Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: volunteer at a place that gives out books for kids in New York, and those are so huge because that is an easy way to get kids to start reading. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. And and in some of the research I did because my question was, you know, do men and women read differently? We do. And they're if you just look at it at face value, it would appear that women read more. But that was actually one of the topics they brought up is that graphic novels often aren't looked at as literature. And that is one of the genres that males do read more. And so I do think that one of the things and you know the As we keep having these conversations, I keep learning is the more deeper you go into these topics, the more whatever the surface take on it is not always true. It's always a little more nuanced than what we think. And I mean, I do think reading is down of books and long format articles just because we're on our phones and those types of things. And I I stopped reading for a bit. And the first time I went back to read a book, I really had to re- I jigger myself to be able Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: to sit with my attention, which frightened me. So I started reading again. And the funny thing is, the way I started reading again was with romance novels because they're easy to read. If they're well written, not from a per se language perspective, but in a way that it engages me and brings me into the story and helps me escape a bit. It kept my attention. And so it was actually romance novels that got me back into being able to read my longer form not either novels or nonfiction and have it be easy again. So I think we have to be really careful when we try to lump things into a little tiny box. Taylor: Of course. And I do wonder there is like a really easy criticism people have for romance novels, especially modern ones, that it's just like smut. I saw a critique on TikTok of normal people, the book by Sally Rooney, as just smut. And I Jenny Gumm: Normal people as Taylor: and I was just like. We have to stop. Jenny Gumm: Sorry. Taylor: Sex is not smart. Jenny Gumm: No, sex is part of life being alive. For people who choose to have it, it's part of being alive. Taylor: And my gosh. I was just like, this is like, well, that's I will say that is one of my favorite books. So I'm gonna defend it with my full Jenny Gumm: Yeah, me too, too. Taylor: chest. But like the idea that sex happening in a narrative means that it doesn't have value or it is just smut. Well, one, who cares if you want to read about sex? Like Jenny Gumm: True. Taylor: A well-written sex scene is a skill. I've read a lot of bad ones. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: It's upsetting. we cannot take that away from the romance writers. And like sex happens all the time in all of our media. It seems weird to target women who are reading. romance novels as unserious when there's like every video game has like big titty bitches all over the place. Every movie we watch is again Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: like smooth face women. Like we are doing sex appeal in everything. I don't know why it's all of a sudden wrong when it's a romance book. And I Jenny Gumm: Well, Taylor: do Jenny Gumm: from a puritanical perspective though, honey, it's wrong for women to want I mean, a lot often in the romance novels, it's written from a woman's point of view of her seeking it out and for her pleasure. And so I think that that might have a little something to do with it. Taylor: I'm sure it Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: it just bugs me because and maybe we can kind of move on to like why do people want these narratives? Like what Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: happened? Obviously, I mentioned that things have been exploding since 2020, especially. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: but it's like there is the a huge escapism to well, reading in general. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, I think the other part maybe if you think of the nonfiction versus the fiction, in fiction, it's not like it's not person it's not necessarily personally even what you want. It's a fantasy, it's a it's a third party, it's out there, it's a way to escape. It's a way to ex as we talked about now that we have ebooks, there's more voices, there's more tr ways of things being set up, there's more to explore that expands your ideas of things. So it's not only about sex, it's expanding your idea of relationships, of you know, what you said, of it what the history was in a city. What fiction is is creating something that is not real for the person reading it. And so I think we forget about that part of it is that it's not It can be seen as a waste of time. It can be seen as frivolous. However, in all of these ways, we get to be somewhere different for a while. We get to take on, if it's well written and you really are engaged, you get to take on being different places and with different people. Taylor: Yeah. And I think like people are looking for that now more than ever. And I wonder if the fantasy part of it just brings it like a step further removed. People are like, not only do I need a happily ever after, not only do I want a hot man and a hot lady making out, but I need them to be in a far-off kingdom that I've never seen, that does not have the politics of my time, and Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: is completely removed from anything I'll ever have because there is this huge discussion online about like not wanting a third act breakup which is a cornerstone Jenny Gumm: Okay. Taylor: of romance novels. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: The tension happens, they break up for whatever reason and then they get back together. And something I have been thinking about this is that It's even more comforting for people because the relationship tension is like from an outside force if there's no third act breakup. Because if you have like an internal relationship conflict, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: they have to separate and come back together, or else there's not really a plot. But you can do that if there is sort of like a war between two nations going on. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Right. Taylor: And they don't really need to break up. Yes. Someone is kidnapped. Jenny Gumm: Or they're on and they're on opposing sides of it. Or they're yes. So it's or it's their family. Or it's their class. Or it I mean, so many of these things are about the separations between people that to your point are not anything that they're choosing. It's something else keeping them but The funny thing is though, whether it's internal or external, they're always overcoming that to end up together. So I think it also teaches us a lot about resilience and like and gives us maybe to your point, not always a happy ending. but there always is a little bit of fighting through something or Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: going the extra mile or making that gesture. that just Taylor: And Jenny Gumm: Makes you feel good. Taylor: Like women are at the center of these, which is I think a thing Jenny Gumm: That's true too. Taylor: we've alluded to but we haven't totally touched on Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: is that these stories, even from back in the seventeen forties, there were women that had full lives and got like fully flushed out character arcs. And Jenny Gumm: Yes. Taylor: I think if a woman is the center of it, she's obviously going to have some sort of narrative arc because otherwise it would be a bad book. So it's this way for women to get stories about ourselves. And I think I think it's more common now to read books with female protagonists written by all sorts of authors. But I mean, men write about men. Like you write what Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: you know. And so it is something that gives women like an actual narrative to cling on to, and like one that involves like the most common thing of all, just like relationships which we all kinda go through, most of us. So yeah. Jenny Gumm: And none of them are straightforward or easy. But none of them. Yes. Taylor: No, but wouldn't it be nice if they were? Jenny Gumm: For sure they would. Yeah. I know it's interesting because I read all I mean, and I think you do too. I read a lot of genres, but I think that if I really just have an afternoon, want to kick up, have a cup of tea, and just escape for a minute. with something that I know will be satisfying and that will engage me, it's gonna be one of these books. Taylor: Yeah, because I think both of us love a character-driven narrative. Jenny Gumm: Yeah, that's true too. Taylor: And a lot of romance books, the whole thing is the banter, the characters. So you get that little it's like reading a it's like a rom com. It's like watching a rom com. It's it's a little it's a nice a nice little trip for your brain to be somewhere happy. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, and I think, and you touched on it a little bit, but clearly it's popular beyond just women too, because if we see some of the things that are coming out on TV and, you know, and both shows as well as movies and those types of things. And so it's maybe it's easier as opposed to reading, it's easier to watch something now or say you're watching the show because everybody else is watching it. Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: But the genre does seem to be accepted. And the that type of medium more, maybe. Taylor: That's true. A lot of those come from books, though. I mentioned Nora Roberts. I mean, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Yeah. Taylor: but I mean, he did rivalry this past year, or like last year, I Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: guess it started. that was a crazy cultural moment. And I think kind of even the way that that show was created by a Canadian. production company for like two dollars with actors who no one knows. no offense. Well they know them now, but it just like Jenny Gumm: Well, they know them now. Yeah. Taylor: that is kind of one of those situations where people are clamoring Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: for progression in the in the format. Which was clearly shown by the how popular it became. Like that was like an explicit show, and people loved it. Like people were like, we're ready for this. And I think not it's not about how explicit it is. I do think a lot of it is the acting and the care that was taken with making Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: the show. but I do think when we put ourselves into boxes, we are missing out on so many good narratives. And I do think like People do want romance stories, but it's been feeling a little stale recently, I think in recent years. Like the rom com needed some updating. And I think I feel like heated rivalry was just such a good example of doing something new, giving the people what they want on accident. Cause like Jenny Gumm: Well, I think though that's what the you know, literature or cinema or anything does. It can it it meets the time when people are ready. And you don't know. And some things will come too early and it won't be met with that kind of a response. And some things will come so late that it's over. And I think that that's what is so interesting about these times, whether it's through ebooks or things are getting made to your point for f Less dollars but end up on TV that never would have made it into a major motion picture. I think we talk a lot about and we can have a whole episode on the negatives of some things, but what we're starting to see is that there's a lot more access for people to be writing, publishing, creating because of some of the different ways we approach media and the access to media that we have. And to me, it's so cool because things that maybe 10 years ago we never would have seen or experienced, we get to do, get to. And then it just brings us along. I think it also shows that sometimes we hear narratives about where people are either in this country or in this, you know, generation and all of those things. And something like that just like explode exploded across the board. Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: And so, and I think that that's what we're seeing too with some of the fantasy, the romance and the romanticy, I will get that right, is that these this is something that right now with the sales people are clamoring for. And then the other thing that's cool about that is that because people are clamoring for that, that brings money to publishers and that means some of the more, you know, considered more serious. books and literary books can also be published because there needs to be some money. So everybody Taylor: I know. Jenny Gumm: is everybody's winning. You can slam Taylor: Yeah, not Jenny Gumm: it all you want, but everybody's winning. Taylor: Unfortunately that buzzy litpick pick is not is not funding the the publishing industry. It's like airport books and romance. Jenny Gumm: Yeah, exactly. Taylor: But like I think we I I feel like we both have a healthy admiration for Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: romance readers, romance writers. I think saying someone is just a generic writer because they write romance is not fair. maybe you might think it's dumb, but it's not, and there are gradients in the genre and there are favorites that people can disagree on, but there's good writing in there. I like feel almost like personally offended when people say there's the writing is not good or doesn't need to be good in romance because I do think it takes skill to make chemistry real on a page. Jenny Gumm: Yeah, especially in writing. It's super well, it's not it's not super easy visually, but visually it's either there or it's not. But Taylor: Right. Jenny Gumm: in writing, you have to create these characters in such a way that the person reading it can actually imagine the chemistry, can imagine. And I do think that there's an art to that. I also think that It's interesting that this specific genre has been picked out to have so much criticism when Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: it's just a genre of writing and it's just a genre of books. And so and no one is last time I checked, no one's forcing us to read anything. And so to me, if people are enjoying it, people are buying it, people are reading it, that's indication of not enough that it has a value to society. Taylor: Totally. And I think I think I hear a lot of criticism of the horror genre as well, but I think you're Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: not getting this mainstream derision of it because it's not selling as much. So I feel like the criticism comes from people trying to square the fact that they believe something is not worthy, yet it is the top-selling genre. Jenny Gumm: It's so popular. Taylor: Like everyone else does. Like people Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: clearly deem it. worthy because they're buying it and it's like I think I think that reading doesn't have to be serious. I like we've said multiple times I'm a huge reader but I don't think that every book has to like change your life it doesn't need to be difficult to get through it doesn't have to make you work for it like if that's something that's like exciting for you then fine but like read what you like like Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Just read. It's good for your brain. Taylor: And don't yeah just read and don't like make it into this lofty task because I think sometimes people are like you're a reader that's impressive It's reading. Let's it's just a Jenny Gumm: It's raining. Taylor: thing you do. It's it's for entertainment. It's I guess it's better maybe than watching a TV show, but like at some point it's just reading. And we shouldn't Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: put it on a a pedestal. And we definitely shouldn't deride genres that get people who might not want to read. Because if you're only recommending some like depressing book to someone, they're never gonna read it. So like we gotta have Jenny Gumm: Or if they're having to look up every other word in the dictionary. Taylor: Huh. Jenny Gumm: Sometimes I mean every once in a while and I love to do that too. It's how I mean reading does help your vocabulary. And so there are times when I love doing that. And sometimes I just to your point want to read something that's accessible. It's fun. And there's no I think but you know, there's not a wrong or a right here. And I do think that hopefully people can, if they love these books, they can appreciate. That you know, and we can start to appreciate as a society that there is certainly a place for these books because they really clearly they are very popular. Clearly, they're bringing joy or something or entertainment to a lot of people. And I mean, the fact that we now have romance bookstores tells you something too, because Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: as I think I mentioned at the beginning, there's one in San Francisco I'm gonna go get to. So regardless, I guess, of what the critics are saying, probably the same as back in what was it, 1740, when they started making merch, Taylor: He Jenny Gumm: I guess the people get to speak. Taylor: The people get to speak. Yes. Let the people talk. Jenny Gumm: Yes. Taylor: I think that's the the perfect ending for the episode, Mom. Perfect button. Jenny Gumm: Okay. That's what we're checking into this week. Thanks for listening in.