Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Attacked by Muslims, Arrested by Police... All for Preaching Jesus: Hatun Tash || SLP455

Transcript

Attacked by Muslims, Arrested by Police... All for Preaching Jesus: Hatun Tash || SLP455 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, I'm Glenn from Speak Life.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: We try to see all things through the lens of Jesus.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've been looking forward to today's interview for many weeks.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Hatun Tash was born in Turkey, came to Christ in London, and came to public prominence through being punched and kicked and stabbed at Speaker's Corner, and yet it was Hatun that was arrested by the police.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what was her crime?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she was provocatively preaching about Jesus, and uh she ended up on the wrong end of the law.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about that, we're gonna talk about uh her online presence and her YouTube channel, and uh there's a fantastic story with that.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, Hatsun, thank you so much for joining us uh on the line.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us about life in Turkey and the kind of spiritual backgrounds that you had growing up there.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: I brought up in a Muslim family.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: My father is Imam, and um, like comparing um to British Muslims, I wouldn't say we are that much radical Muslims.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: So in Turkey, very big majority is Muslim, everyone kind of does the same thing.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I did have some advantages among other Muslims because when your father is like a religious leader, you need to set the examples, you study a little bit extra, um, you need to set examples.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So praying five times a day, um, doing Ramadan like everyone else, but not in a sense of like British Muslims, because Spirit Muslims are like very, very different uh than um Turkish Muslims.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about the difference.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: What's the what's the difference?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So uh in here, um I'm talking main because I mainly engage with Dawah Dawa team as well as Muslim missionaries.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So Dawah is kind of an Arabic term that means sort of outreach or evangelism, that sort of thing.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, um kind of inviting people into Islam.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um in here, people know about arguments against Islam and they prepared.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: They know about the Bible.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um actually, most of them know the Bible more than they know about Islam.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in Turkey, because everyone believes the same thing, you never need to question anything, you never need to defend anything.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Basic things about Christianity, you know, is it's that it's Western religion where people go to the nightclubs half naked and sleep around and they uh celebrate New Year's just a couple of um days before normal New Year.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that's like your Christmas thing.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and then also um they celebrate the death of Jesus.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of basic information I had about Christianity.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of comparing the normal uh Turkish people would be very normal.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, not like any I wouldn't identify myself as a radical Muslim with the comparing the mindset of uh British Muslims, but in Turkey we would be identified as religious people.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: So half of the Turkish moderate Muslims, they don't that much practice Islam.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Other half uh would be Muslims who are who love to practice Islam.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you attend the mosque, um, you hang around with other Muslims, and then you do all the religious duties which you were told to do.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you were quite devout as a as a Muslim, like you you would pray five times a day, that sort of thing?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you had you kind of have to, because when your father is imam, um you can't get away with certain things.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: In here, if your father is priest, like no one kind of looks at you because everyone is about your everything is about your father.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: But in Turkey, there is family honor thing.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got to set the examples.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you would pray five times a day, you fast journey thermadans, and you wouldn't kind of do crazy things some people might be doing.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So what would your view of Jesus have been?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Obvious obviously, Jesus is uh a very central character in the Quran under the name of Isa, I guess, but you you would have had some sense of of who Jesus is growing up.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we know about Jesus as the prophet of Islam.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um he's identified as sinless, he was born from virgin.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh our main focus would be have to practice Islam more instead of like learning about Jesus.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, we know um the book which was given, we knew actually, the book which was given to Jesus is corrupted.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um therefore Quran came.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as well as people also celebrate his birthday um just a couple of days before uh before New Year.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Very big comparing Christianity is like very, very basics.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: But also we knew from very early age you learn that God doesn't have a son.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that's like something you learn maybe when you are age three or four.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's the very first prayer of the five, isn't it?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh surah 112, say Allah, He is one, He does not beget, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so right from the very outset, you your first prayer is saying, God is not a father and He has no Son.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: So if you think about it, you grow up with that, and then suddenly you end up in a country where I knew people are not Muslims, but you end up in a country where people are calling Jesus Son of God.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's like very blaspheme and like very shocking.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, very shocking.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So how did you ever find yourself going going to church in the first place to even hear Christians praying to to God as he?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um no, so um uh in Turkey, so it's uh we have lots of museums, we've got lots of mosques, lots of churches, and those places are visited by foreigners.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: So people come and then do um go to the churches to look around stuff.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Then I moved to England, I went to church in the intention of like, okay, it's a place where tourist goes and then check it out.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that was my intention.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I was told actually no, people come here to worship.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then from that I kind people say hi to me, and then I start going back.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um it took like maybe like a year or so um over a year for me to kind of just like try to understand what was happening in the church.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then approximately a year after that I become a Christian.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: That that is quite remarkable, isn't it?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I mean I don't know a lot of people who just find themselves going to church again, and and still less the the the daughter of an imam.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um were there people praying for you or what do you think was going on with you spiritually?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um in my problem in my first week would be strange.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if people would be praying for me because I was just trying to understand what was happening.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very different settings, like family settings are different.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so I went to church, it was during the weekday, and the lady who was at the welcome desk, when she said, Oh, we don't have like we don't look around, like this is not like tourism place, people come here to worship.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was introduced a gentleman who was in that church in that time in charge of um young adults group, and he was also in charge of international young adults group, so there were lots of international people who kind of do Bible study, but they didn't tell me that was like Bible study, they told me we meet like once a week um for we play games, um, it will help with your English.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Would you like to come?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Well, sure, I didn't have any friend, and the people like I left all my family in Turkey, I was here just for a short time.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't have any friends, and people were so welcoming.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: And first so we met um in someone's house.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: It was very strange.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: So in Turkey, only way you leave your house is you move out from your houses if you get married.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: And may sometimes if even you are man, your wife will move in with your family.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's m my first time ever in the house of British and Christian.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: When I enter the house, I still remember that moment.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: This brother's mother was shouting at him, um, I told you to move out.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, what?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Why he wants why she wants him out?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Apparently in Britain it's very common.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Once you come back from university, you need to move you need to be moving out.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um those kind of very small things were very strange to me.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then you kind of be you are around people who are very different, they are like joyful, they are laughing.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you are playing games like you are an adult.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so in Islam, we don't even have dolls as a child.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then suddenly you are in your twenties and you are playing games.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, all those things were like kind of brand new new way of looking at the world.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um kind of you start hanging around with them, and then of course I find out the um that evening I went um kind of now looking back, it was like um house group uh where people meet together, have fellowship, and study Bible.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: So in that moment I find out um as they were talking about God, one of the gentlemen was calling God he.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, How do you know God is man?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then conversation started from that.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the sense of a personal God who you could speak to on personal terms.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's different to the Islam that you grow up grew up with.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, at that stage, no, it was mainly the way you were calling God as a man.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: That was my kind of big deal.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: But as the time went on, yes, um, you are able to compare.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: God of Islam is not personal, God of Islam is not relational, he never even bothered to have fellowship with first man and woman.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: He's not going to have fellowship with his creation at the end.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Versus, God of Bible talks about how we are going to dwell with him, how we are going to have fellowship with him.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: You look at God of Bible and then you see God of the Bible sees people's suffering.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: He concerns for them and then he steps into rescue and redeem them.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Versus Allah talks about like if men and woman didn't sin, he will destroy them until people start sinning so that he can practice his forgiveness.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: You get to see like how heart of God, um, how relational, how caring is.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as you kind of look into the Christian scripture, you get to know God when you start um like just amaze the beauty of Lord Jesus Christ.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: And comparing that with Islam, it just makes you feel like how at the first place you kind of fall in such a God.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: God of Islam is like lonely, alone, and he just creates because he he's needed, versus God of the Bible is already in community.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: He father loved son before the foundation of the world in the power of the spirit.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: We are created because we were wanted instead of uh we were needed, all that like small things just cause you to think like, how come I never thought about those things before while I was living my life as a Muslim?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a time and place, and that is always in charge, anyway.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right, that's that's true.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess if you are going to be very anti-Trinitarian and the Quran is very anti-Trinitarian, you know, say not three, and the f you know, Allah is not a father and he has no son, uh then you cut yourself off from the kind of personal God who would want to have fellowship with his creation.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you are left with a God who, as you say, needs creation, because if if Allah is going to demonstrate anything of compassion, then I guess he needs to have a creation that he's compassionate on, and I guess it needs to fall, and and then he can demonstrate some kind of forgiveness.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So he needs creation in order to fulfil himself, whereas the God who is Father, Son, and Spirit is compassion way back, you know, before the world began.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh God is love.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just that God is loving in the Christian understanding, God is love, and he reveals that to us in Jesus.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, Hatun, when did you start going from thinking Christianity was different to starting to think this is true?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it was approximately a year after my baptism.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was just before the time of Easter.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um I kind of end up being in a place, okay, why did I sign up for this?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: And you start digging to scripture to justify why you signed up for this.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Something happens.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I end up um so I lived in just outside of um London, and um there was a big mission um organization which had a huge field.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um it was I think it was just before um it was Holy Saturday, so uh there was like sun raising sunrise service for Easter Sunday.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: We were talking about what did God do before the foundation of the world.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but at that stage people would identify me as Christian because I I was being baptized, I was already kind of serving in the church stuff.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone was like trying to tell one another what was God doing before the foundation of the world.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was and we were reading John chapter 14 to end of the John that night.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: I remember kind of reading John 17 where it talks about like father loves the son before the foundation of the world.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love that verse, yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like what what what God was doing before the foundation of the world only can make sense through Christian scripture.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I need to pinpoint where exactly I kind of come to the conclusion that it is true, besides like um God revealed himself, that would be one of the highlights, like being able to kind of just see the scripture.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Probably by that time I read it a couple of times, but first time seeing the scripture speaks and then answer the question, what is God doing before the foundation of the world?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: And answering that question just doesn't make sense without Christian scripture, without trying God.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: That would be the one of the highlights of when I become like more convinced that um Christianity is truth, and there is no any other way.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's John 17, verse 24.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is praying but the night before his death, he's in front of his disciples, and he says, Father, you loved me from before the creation of the world.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he even says in that verse, I want those you've given me to be with me where I am and to see my glory, the glory you've given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's this beautiful scene of before the world began, the Father always loving the Son in the Spirit.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the whole purpose of Christ's coming and dying and rising again is to invite us into that Niagara falls of God's love from the Father to the Son, and we share in that glory, we share in that love in Jesus.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's the most beautiful picture of why we are here, the most beautiful picture of God, the most beautiful picture of what the world is all about and what human life, you know, the meaning of life, it's it's to share in the eternal love of God.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um just an extraordinary, um, extraordinary verse.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so heartwarmed to to hear that you were processing that and that that was um that was really striking you as not not only different, not only beautiful, but also true.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's got huge explanatory power, hasn't it?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's if God is love and he's made us for love, it kind of explains life, doesn't it?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it was strange.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um the people group I was at that stage, um, they're all brothers and sisters.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but all of them kind of grew up in a Christian family, so they never thought about it.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: They were like, oh.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they didn't give the reaction you gave right now.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: They were just like, oh they took it for granted.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they took the eternal love of God for granted.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me about why so but this was like a year after you got baptized.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So why did you get baptized?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're uh you know, the the daughter of an imam gets baptized.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's not a normal occurrence.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Why why did you do it?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because people asked me if I wanted to get baptized.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we've got like um we've got the shame and honor culture.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like very uh dishonorable to like say no to people.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then at that stage, I didn't even know that much about like I never met anyone who converted to Christianity.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: I never heard anyone even does it.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: So uh when I was asked um if I want to get baptized, I said sure.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: I got baptized.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I figured out like that was a very serious thing to do.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, after I told my family.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, everyone was like, what did you do?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, yeah, so bad.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, main reason I got baptized because I was asked.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I just I think it at that stage, like, okay, I like these people.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, they're asking me to get baptized.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: It was we at that stage we didn't even have like baptism classes.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now we've got baptism classes.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you just say, okay, I'll get baptized, and then they just put the swimming pool, and then you just go in and out.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So what I should get another baptism.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I s I should invite a lot more people to get baptized, maybe.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: I maybe I should be bold to um So what what did they think back then and what do they think today about your Christian faith?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: My church or my family?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Your family.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's still a working process.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: But um, so in Islam you do have um Islam doesn't give you right to change your religion, um, as well as Islam doesn't give you right to leave your religion.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: So once um if you've done that, um there is consequences you've got the deal, and um it is kind of safer, yeah, safer to be distanced from your family.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's not a choice, of course, you are forced upon it, and uh yeah, it's it's still working process.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what made you then think, okay, now I have Jesus and I know the love of God, I'm filled with his spirits.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, you can be a Christian, but now you're you're part of uh a ministry called DCCI, um Defend Christ and Critique Islam.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um why now do you feel that part of part of your calling is not only to preach Jesus but also to critique Islam?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Even when I wasn't Christian, when I was like part of the Christian congregation, um part of the church, um something happened to me.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like I come from a background where um woman doesn't kind of talk over men, you are not in big groups, um like I would say I'm I'm pretty kind of introvert and shy person.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: But when I start hanging around with with Christians, I would like default, um something happened.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: I would invite people to come to church, come to Alpha Course, all those kind of things, and then as the time went on, um after I become Christian, it just became like part of my like Christian life.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't like okay, Christians stuck in a church had the children ministry, youth ministry, and putting the chairs, tables, having the tea and coffee.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, we need to do those things, but it was more about like as a Christian, part of the Christian life is we tell people people about our glorious God.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And um, as the time went on, um, I was doing some studies up in Oxford.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: I met with a Christian ex-Christian lady, she became a Muslim when she went to university because people at university asked her some questions.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how can God have a son?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: How can you believe God had a sex with a woman?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: How can God die on the cross?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't know how to answer those questions.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: She said Islam made sense to me, therefore I converted to Islam.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: At that conversation, she expressed now she's married to a Muslim and she has k children.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: When I kind of having when I was having that conversation, they were very similar questions when my family asked me when I got baptized.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you believe in three gods?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: How can God have sex with a woman?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, how can God have a son?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Such a question I didn't know how to answer.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: But there was something in the character of Jesus was like still keeping me in Christianity.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of started shaking me, like, oh.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: The questions my family asked me are the same questions this Christian girl who came to university was asked by Muslims.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Have come like someone who's been Christian all of her life, grew up in a church, her family was involved with prayer ministry.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Why she couldn't answer those questions?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And from that I kind of start, okay, I need to make sure I've got a satisfied answer for those basic questions.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then in Oxford you've got lots of different faith and faithless people.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I end up finding myself in front of that they were building this big mosque, in front of the mosque praying for Muslims.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then end up being in the book tables, just like giving leaflets out.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: And in all the kind of conversation I was having was mainly about answering the same questions again and again.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: It was every every day that you meet with Muslims, it's the same question, and I am the one who is answering those questions.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: So you kind of practice uh your answers in that sense, it is good.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: But um, and then I start going to speakers corner.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: In 2014, there was a debate between Jay Smith and Shabir Ali.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Shabir Ali is a Muslim scholar, and Jay Smith is a Christian preacher who used to be at Speaker's Corner.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Jay Smith was asking questions about the Quran to Shabir Ali, and he wasn't able to answer.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: From that, I just start picking up how come Muslims can't answer basic questions that start making me think, okay, let me see if Muslims can answer other questions.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I start going to mosques, um, doing preaching outside of the mosque, inside the mosque, and as I start asking very basic questions about Muhammad or the Quran, I notice Muslims don't know how to answer those very basic questions.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: But they are so good at attacking Christian faith, they are so good at attacking uh identity and work of Lord Jesus Christ.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um I kind of noticed when Muslim people weren't able to answer those questions, they start like thinking more critically.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would have to provide sources for them, they would read those sources and then we would start start having conversations.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I end up like it kind of naturally came up.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: I end up seeing actually because Islam has never been questioned for centuries, and Islam is Quran is like a very polemical book.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um all those attacking um Christians, attacking Jews, attacking pagans, so therefore Muslims don't know how to do apologetics.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um I kind of start more focusing on asking questions to Muslims as well as the questions Muslims ask me, I am able to answer.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the end, it is very it literally takes two minutes to help Muslims to have a doubt about his or her faith.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that can cause someone to become ex-Muslim, but I don't think solution is ever making more ex-Muslims or atheists.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think solution is always Lord Jesus Christ.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can become atheist and you will still end up in hell with Muhammad.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: You can become ex-Muslim and nothing, you will still end up in hell with Muhammad.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Only only you will be without Muhammad for eternity is when you turn to Lord Jesus Christ.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: So kind of as the kind of time went on, I just end up um more focused on criticing the ideology of Islam because it had me to see people were leaving Islam because they were not able to answer very basic questions and they were turning to Lord Jesus Christ.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it kind of came naturally.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: But um DCCI ministries as a team officially started back in 2017 when um Jay Smith from Speaker's Corner when he left Speaker's Corner.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we needed a name for the YouTube channel.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: We just came up with DCCI.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Very good.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Defend Christ, critique Islam, and it's both of those things.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's evangelism, but it's also polemics.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's uh uh uh apologetics in terms of answering questions that are asked of Christian faith, but it's also getting on the front foot and asking questions of uh Muslims as well.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: You said you said you can uh cause a Muslim to start questioning their faith in two minutes.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh how do you how do you go about doing that?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what are what are the f what are the first sorts of things that you raise with them?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: So um perfect preservation of the Quran is one of them.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know like almost hundred people who left Islam just because of perfect preservation argument.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: So Muslims believe the Quran has been perfectly preserved, dot by dot, letter by letter, sound by sound, dot by dot.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: And the Bible is being corrupted.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: So um you just take different Arabic Qurans outside of the Moscow on Friday and then tell them which one is the eternal word of Allah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you you've managed to collect dozens and dozens of different Quran's that that are different even in the Arabic, is that right?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Quran is Arabic, so um I've got 37 different Arabic Qurans uh they are different from one another.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um you just need the second Quran, you don't need 37.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um But but it makes a point, doesn't it, when you when you have all those dozens uh right there.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean I've I I'm surprised by that, and I'm not a Muslim.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm surprised that that they haven't been able to standardize their Arabic texts.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh where where have you sourced these different uh Qurans from?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: So you can buy them from Morocco, from Nigeria, from Kenya, from Saudi Arabia, uh, from Jordan.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um it is I think um it is a big deal for Muslim world today, um, in the 21st century or last couple of decades.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: But it was very common um within Islamic history when you read the Islamic tradition, it talks about within like Muhammad died in 632.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Around 936, Muslims are talking about 50 different Arabic Qurans and they're all circulating.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um so first um it becomes like seven different Arabic Qurans and officially, but the other Qurans are still circulating, and people were uh put in prison and tortured for just having different Arabic Qurans.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's kind of become more canonized in 1923-1924 and Azhar University and in 1936 for Egypt, and in 1980s, the current Quran Muslims are reading being officialized by Saudi.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: So current Quran Muslims are reading identified as the Hafs Quran.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um but if you go to Morocco, it's a beautiful country, and you will you will have a Quran which is identified as Vosh Quran, and that Quran is very different than what Muslims in England are reading.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh are you personally going through these different copies and and finding finding the differences?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Or how how are you identifying the differences?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've done that, so I moved on from that argument now.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um so his argument was Quran has been preserved dot by dot, letter by letter, sound by sound, word by word, and wherever around the world you go, there is only one perfect copy.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: So all I needed is a Quran, an Arabic Quran had one word, was different, written in Arabic, and meaning was different in English and in Arabic.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I have 37 Qurans, I went to um 24 of them, um, and it has um approximate 93,000 variations between them, and then it does change the meaning.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: But um I think um first year of the lockdown, a Muslim missionary published a book called Bridges Translation of the Ten Qur'.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: So in that book, he's looking at the different Arabic Quran, and then he's got footnotes.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: In the footnotes, he's saying this Quran is different from uh this Quran different this word from this Quran, from this Quran and from this Quran.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: So now Muslims published published Muslims published a book to just talk about it.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: And now there are websites where you can simply go and then see the differences online as well.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: So um all I needed one variation and one Quran.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think that's like good enough for me to make my case.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I kind of finished preparing them.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: So let I mean let's let's talk about how explosive that has been when you've when you've taken that literature either outside a mosque or to Speaker's Corner, which is the northeast corner of of Hyde Park.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll talk about um how explosive that got.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: But before we do that, how do you respond to somebody who says, oh, but the s the the New Testament is the same?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh a a New Testament scholar called Bart Ehrman um has has said that there are as many variations in the different manuscripts that we have of the New Testament as there are words in the New Testament.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so obviously there's there's a a massive manuscript tradition um in the New Testament, and that manuscript tradition has been preserved in all its differences.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that um not a problem or or a different kind of a problem to um what we're talking about with the Quran?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Are you asking me this as a Muslim or ask as are you asking me this as a Christian?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I would I would respond differently.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, imagine I'm the Muslim and I'm asking you the question But the New Testament is the same, there are so many different uh variations in that too.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so here's the first thing is Bar Durman is not your prophet.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Your prophet is Muhammad, and your God is Allah.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Bar Durman is not your God either.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: According to your God, and according to your prophet, Bible is reliable word of God.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Surah 3 identifies the Torah and the angel as the word of God, and Quran talks about no one can change the word of God.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: So now you are turning to me and telling me that my Bible is not reliable.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Excuse me, it doesn't work like that.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that can be like very quick answer.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: And also, um, the Quran talks about Christians have nothing else to uphold unless without gospel, okay?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like according to the time of Muhammad, according to Quran, my Bible is the reliable word of God.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of in a bigger picture.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, regarding the different Arabic Quran's and the textual variations in the gospel in the New Testament, is it is not the same thing.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So if I have another gospel which is identified as the gospel according to Mark, okay, I have another gospel which says gospel is according to um Mark X, gospel according to Mark C, then we compare those gospels, and then if there is textual variations, and then if you are making a claim it is dot by dot exactly what Muhammad revealed, that will be a problem.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: So comparing the New Testament textual variations of within the manuscripts is not to compare the Arabic Quran.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, different Arabic Quran are they are not the same.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think it is fair for us as a Christians to fall into that trap.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: So Muslims are like they have a Quran, name of the Quran is Hafs Quran, they have a Quran, name of the Quran is called Walsh Quran, and they are all Arabic.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that's like very different argument.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very good.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, like uh from the Christian perspective, I think the textual variations within the manuscripts, we've got 5856 Greek manuscripts, uh thousands of church fathers' translations and their writings uh simply tells me actually, praise God, I don't have man called Utman, who was kind of controlling everything written into the manuscripts.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Human beings inspired by God and then put the New Testament together.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks God that when I see the variations between manip manuscripts, it helps me to be more confident that I can trust and put my faith in this book.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: This book is reliable and sufficient enough.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hi folks, it's Thomas Thoroughgood here, media producer at Speak Life.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: You might recognise my voice as the guy who does the filler bits on the podcast.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of my job to think of how we can include you more in the work of Speak Life and bring you behind the scenes, if you will.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have a very exciting thing called the Speak Life Discord server.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's an online platform where you can interact with other Speak Life supporters and the Speak Life team.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: We have bonus content, creative theological discussion, and lots of fun along the way.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to join that, you can just go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash give.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, back to the podcast.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: And is it true to say, would would you say this?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm I'm often finding myself saying this, that really the comparison between Islam and Christianity is not so much between the Quran and the Bible, but it's far more between the Quran and Christ.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um that both are kind of the you know, can considered to be the eternal word of God.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that the the Bible is a different kind of a document, but you know, for a start, it's written over fifteen hundred years by forty forty different authors, um in different languages.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: It it is translatable, it is possible to translate it, and the the the Bible is just a different kind of a thing that witnesses to the eternal word of God, Christ.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the the Quran seems to be like a Jesus type figure, like eternally with Allah.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um is it even sort of Muslim belief that that the Quran sort of existed before the world began?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or like like what what what is their view of the Quran?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: So Quran is identified as uncreated, it is the word of Allah.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: So Quran and Jesus, the way we see Jesus is similar.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um if you have a any if you have any doubt in any letter of the Quran, you are identified as disbeliever.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Quran on the day of judgment is going to appeal, um going to appear as a pale man and going to intercede for those who recited it.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Versus Lord Jesus Christ, he is the eternal word of God, take up human flesh, came and dwelt among us, and he's interseeing for us.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, Quran and Jesus has the kind of like Muhammad gave birth to Quran.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't kind of according to Islamic tradition, he just delivered the Quran.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: But and then we would say, yeah, Mary is the kind of giving birth to um Jesus, the word of God.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting, very interesting.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's talk about um how controversial it has been, uh, especially at Speaker's Corner, let's talk about.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: There have been a a number of incidents um at Speaker's Corner um on a Sunday.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: I uh back in the day I've I've gotten roughed up a little bit at at Speaker's Corner.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you you have really uh been on the receding receiving end of of some abuse at Speaker's Corner.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: What has happened to you?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so when the I think it all started back in 2016.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: When the different Arabic Qurans end up at Speaker's Corner, Muslims' approach towards me changed.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: So before that, we were having like good debates and discussions, um apologetics and polemics, everything was like working together, and then uh when the different Arabic Qurans end up at Speaker's Corner, and I pushed that um pretty hard.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because um I took the different Arabic Qurans to mosques where when Imams saw it, they walked away from Islam.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: I took different Arabic Qurans to Bible studies with Muslims, Muslims saw it and then they walked, um, they walked away from Islam.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um so when I first took the different Arabic Qurans, the speaker's corner, Muslims got a little bit upset about it.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea kind of ended up being okay, we are not gonna talk to her, we are not gonna give her a platform because we don't want people to know about this.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I think it's been uh two years now.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: Two years ago, a Muslim sheikh is being interviewed by a Muslim missionary.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: And Muslim missionary asked him about the different Arabic Qurans.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: And in that interview, like it is kind of well known as Muslim world now, Muslim Sheikh expressed there are holes in the narrative.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there are lots of ways.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: So there are lots of ways to think about these different Arabic Qurans, uh, but actually, like which um which view you take, there are holes in the narrative.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: And since then when he said that, like it was just a confirmation of uh confirmation of what I've been kind of looking talking about last couple of years at Speaker's Corner.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: And um we start kind of pushing that, we start bringing more um different Arabic Quran to Speaker's Corner, and we even had like I think it became a big deal when Muslims start deleting those videos.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: So video went online, and then within a couple of days, like everyone saw the video, people kind of download it, and then Muslims take the video down, and Muslims start calling the sheikhs and missionary and saying, Well, I've got doubts on my faith about like I've got doubts now, I don't know what to do, and then they got hold of that.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of start um like I kind of use that opportunity to kind of preach the gospel as well as um there are holes in the narrative.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um things kind of got a little bit tense.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: They uh also um I've been someone who um has problems with Muhammad quite a lot, not only uh who Mohammed is, but also his teachings to uh Muslim world, uh as well as applications of his teachings to the Western part of the world.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um people are being simply harmed, killed, or being hidden because what Mohammed teaches.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: I met women who has been hospitalized because their Muslim husband beat them, and those Muslim women can't even get out of it.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: I met with Muslim women who were simply waiting in mosques to uh meet someone, marry with that person for a couple of hours so that they can go back to their first husband to reconcile their marriage.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: So just like practicing the teachings of Islam.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just like kind of seeing those things, not only reading from Islamic sources, but seeing those things makes breaks your heart.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of start critiquing more focusing on more character of Muhammad as well as um perfect preservation of the Quran.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, when I pushed on that, of course, it showed um how Muslims are being lied in the mosques.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, from very early age, you learn that the Quran has been perfectly preserved.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: But now Muslim Sheikh comes to the public platform and then says, Well, there are holes in the narrative.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: That shows your mother lied to you, your father lied to you, your Imam lied to you, and your sheikhs lie to you.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: So the people who your father and your mother they are biologically programmed to love you, yet they lie to you about your eternity.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Same your sheikhs who you trust and learn things from, they lie to you.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: The Quran has not been perfectly preserved.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I was seeing how Muslims were reacting um around the world, and I kind of start pushing that argument at speakers' corner.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, Muslims just get upset.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um when when people don't know Jesus, uh when they are far from Lord Jesus, their reaction to uh people who are telling them or who are questioning their faith becomes a little bit aggressive.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: So of course uh people can people get uh aggressive, you get like punched, um harmed, those kind of things.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: And when you appealed to the police, I mean speaker's corner is meant to be a protected space for for free speech.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, as long as you're six inches off the ground, which is where sort of soapboxes come from, or people stand up on ladders or chairs, uh you're meant to be able to say anything you like.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: It could be blasphemous, it could be treasonous, it could be life.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there's there's this protect protected space for free speech, and the police sort of have a presence there.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um like you you've you've you've been hit there, you've even been stabbed there.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um you've sort of appealed to the police and and and what happened?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um actually I didn't appeal to the police.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: Police turned up to protect Muslims.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, okay.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you you get um people because people don't like what you are saying, even though they come to the place knowing I am going to hear something controversial and I'm not going to like what I am hearing.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: But people still come there to have that conversation.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: So people come and then they don't like what you say.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um they call the police, police comes and then arrest you.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um so police um at Speaker's Corner never been there to protect my rights, but it's been there to protect uh the feelings of uh Muslim people.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've been um I've been stabbed and nothing happened.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've been um I've been harmed, I've been followed, I've been buried where Muslims were just like, okay, um you come out, we are gonna kill you.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: And when you get in touch with police, when you get in touch with police, all you get from the police is, well, we are not your bodyguards.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know people are being offended.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you get arrested for um overnight, a couple of hours, uh, most of times overnight, um, until everyone is calm.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think the main reason the way police reacting, what they are doing, is because they are afraid of Muslims.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they are afraid of Islam, so they don't want to offend Muslims.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, it's been always in even in the minds mind of police, like they turn to you and then they simply say, Why don't you turn the other cheek?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: So turning the other cheek means when they blaspheme against Lord Jesus Christ, you just don't say anything.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Turning the other chick means is when people follow you home with the knife, you just like, okay, this will be okay.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Turning the other chick means is when you are on the floor, people are uh kicking your tummy, you just need to say, okay, once they stop, I'll make my way to home.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the kind of mindset police have.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Police kind of thinks, well, you are Christian, you just need to turn the other cheek.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: If you are not, um, if you don't say what you are saying, then it should be okay.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've got dozens of um Utman warnings from the police where police says, Well, um, your life is in danger, and some of them my life is in danger because I'm saying God have a son.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Allah.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: It just like all that kind of things.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: But um yeah, it just it hasn't been very helpful, it hasn't been very easy.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: I had to move out from the um home from the place I called home for years.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: I had to move out for safety of other people.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, people who were having a cup of tea or Bible studies with me, their life um become in danger because simply I go to speaker's corner or simply my my thoughts and my views.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um I had to live in tents for months because Mr.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: Policeman would turn up my place at three o'clock in the morning to tell me, okay, someone's gonna come and harm me.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Or Muslims would break into my places and police was like, simply, well, we are not your bodyguard.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know why someone might try to kill you?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or someone kind of comes to try to kill you, um, or comes into your tent like the middle of the night.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: When you turn up to the police for help, police simply says, Okay, do you know their name?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know their address?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't know their name and if you don't know their address, we cannot help you.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um for me, this is not a big deal.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, are you aware of that?
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: There are Christians who are simply praying silently, they are being arrested.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, that's like bigger deal than police to just kind of turn blind eye um to Muslim people because they don't want to hurt the feelings of um Muslim.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: But overall, I can say um lots of things has been happening, but it's not my time to go home.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when my time comes, I know Lord Jesus Christ is waiting for me, and I know where I am gonna go and who I am going to be with.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: So um in that in that sense, I've got that confidence.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's just um shame that United King United Kingdom is just like not doing well.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's it and and especially I mean there's there's something very um emblematic about Speaker's Corner.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's meant to be this this sort of place of free speech, and yet you know people are using the Heckler's veto to to kind of say you uh you're you're the one that gets arrested.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: When when things turn violent, you're the one that gets arrested and removed from a place that's meant to be a bastion of free speech.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like upside-down world.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and at least I guess, was it last year that the uh the police um uh made an apology and gave you 10,000 pounds in damages?
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is is that something right that I've read?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so they gave me um seven thousand pounds for um arresting me.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I uh I was in um which one was that?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: I've got lots of dealings with the police.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I think that was one for uh a group of Muslims um came and then they were telling me they came from a big demonstration about Palestine.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: They turned up to speakers gone and then they told me they are gonna kill me.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then um some of them were exposing their private part to me.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: Police come and then um told me why I'm not talking about love of Jesus, and then they arrested me.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um so um after a year of um kind of um challenging police for that false arrest, um they um they gave me five thousand uh seven thousand pounds, um, and I think that um 3,000 pounds is for like all the law um illegal fees kind of expense of the yeah, illegal fees.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that apparently police have to pay for that as well.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I gave I gave that money all um to Christian concern, but even like thinking money of the taxpayers goes to false arrestments and still like the people who wanted to kill me that day, or people who were exposing themselves to me, police has done nothing about them, like po police didn't even like figure uh kind of question them why they were doing such a thing, why they are saying such a thing.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, yeah.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's something there's something very, very wrong there.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um so why do you keep doing it, Hatun?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because um they are they are intending to intimidate you, and most people would say, fine, I'll stay quiet, I'd like a quiet life.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like why why why are you not staying silent?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: You are Christian, you are someone who loves Lord Jesus Christ.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it is difficult to sit at home and then just know that there are people who don't know how much Jesus loves them, there are people who are being captive under the false ideologies, and knowing that, and knowing they will never spend eternity with our trying God, it's a painful place to be.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think scripture gives me that right.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um Matthew chapter 11 identifies heart of God as humble and gentle.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we have a God like the one who created the universe, the one who put many trees, and every tree is different from one another, millions of different animals, millions of stars on the sky, and the one who created you, who created me, was willing to step into this world to rescue me, willing to step into this world to show his love towards me, willing to put his arms on that cross and then show me he loves me from everlasting to everlasting.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: That love doesn't tell me stay silent and keep my love to yourself.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it is difficult.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: It is difficult to just sit at home and then wait till things just pass so that you go out and then share the gospel.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like I am not God, I don't know uh when Lord Jesus Christ will turn up, but I know when he turns up, there are people still have not repented and turned to him, and their judgment is going to be very harsh.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: In Revelation, there it's talking about like people will hide under the rocks behind the mountains from the um judgment of the Lamb of God, from the wrath of the Lamb of God.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: So those things like you read the scripture.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see scripture encourages me just like ignore ignore the people who don't know Jesus.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't see that from the scripture.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: God of the Bible is a missionary God, Father sends his son to the world.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um to you look at the history, church history, you get to see Christians have been missionaries like from early stages we were translating the Bible to the languages for people to understand because people were convinced that we have a glorious gospel because we have a glorious God.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I struggle to I struggle to kind of just say, okay, I can have a very comfortable life, I can get out of this tent, I can have a very comfortable life, I can get kind of a job and then make lots of money.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but my heart wouldn't be right with God, whose heart is humble and gentle, gets to that cross.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: For me, he's worthy enough for people to turn to him, he's worthy enough for his followers to go through I don't know, difficulties and comparing what's happening um these days um around my circle, comparing that what happened to the Christians, like Christians were giving to the lions, they were dinner or lunch for lions.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because they knew Jesus was sufficient enough savior and there was no any other way, and their witness caused people to turn to Lord Jesus Christ.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um in the in that sense, like anyway, short answer to your question.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry for that long juggling, but short answer to your question is um the one who has holes in his hand, the one who has holes in his feet, the one who put himself on the cross just for me is worthy enough for the whole world to know his glorious love for whole world to know how beautiful and delightful my Lord is.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: He is worthy, and that's um oh man, you've done my heart such good just just hearing hearing you preach.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and as you say, you know, the the witness of those who give up everything, even their own lives.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: We we have the word martyr because it's the Greek word for the word witness, and my faith is strengthened as I hear the the length to which you want to give yourself for Jesus and for the for the mission of Jesus.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um that that strengthens my heart.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's strengthening the hearts of everyone who's hearing you, Hatun.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um as we as we finish, um I want you to compare um the kind of mission that you do outside a mosque or at Speaker's Corner with online mission, with YouTube mission, uh, because you have uh recently inherited uh David Wood's uh channel.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: So David Wood was instrumental in the in the conversion of Nabil Qureshi and his uh channel Acts 17 Apologetics has been uh uh a huge YouTube channel and has seen many, many people um come out of Islam and and and come to Christ, and uh he's left YouTube and he's left the keys to his channel um to you, Hatun.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: You you've had a uh a YouTube presence before now, but what is it like now and what uh what are the differences and what are the opportunities that you're finding in preaching Christ in the online space?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: So um first of all, just quick clarification David Wood didn't left YouTube, so he's got um different channels working for the different purposes.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um he just the channel which was his one and only channel, uh, he gave it to me out of pity.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um it was it was actually like you know when we talk about uh how Lord Jesus Christ is gracious enough to give himself for us, uh that his grace is like so humbling.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: It was one of those moments like everything was just like simply messing up.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the channel which I didn't even work for, I didn't even deserve for deserve, he kind of okay, take it.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it was like out of pity, but it was very humbling to get his channel.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I've got two um YouTube channels, one of them DCCI Ministries, the other one is how to touch DCCI Ministries.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: Big channel is having lots of flags from Miss YouTube.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: Miss YouTube just doesn't like what we are doing, so I haven't been able to kind of uh move that much in that channel.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but um when you've got um online platforms, you get to have people from Indonesia, from Malaysia, from different parts of the world, from Middle East, who simply watches what you are saying, wants to engage, have debates and discussions what you are saying, and through um, or even like debates we are having at speakers' corner, it's causing people to walk away from Islam and it is causing people to turn to Lord Jesus Christ.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_02: So um I think we kind of more focused on online ministry since the lockdown, uh, during live streams or having online debates, such a thing, as well as like more focusing on videos from speakers' corner.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as people are watching around the world, it is causing them to ask questions.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, she's been saying the same thing for years, let me check that out.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: It is causing people to have doubt in Islam, and of course, our God is so gracious, He steps in and then rescues those people and causes those people to repent and turn to Him.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, even though it is just a YouTube channel, but behind that uh we've got online churches, online ministry, online churches like where we do Bible study with um ex-Muslims from Pakistan, from Indonesia, from Middle East, even from Europe.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in that sense, it kind of helps to preach the gospel the uh lands um I cannot just turn up.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um we've got God who is amazing, he even uses internet to preach our glorious gospel.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if people want to uh catch up with you and your work and perhaps support your work, um how can how can they find you?
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um well, go to YouTube.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't want to say that because when people go to YouTube, even the Christians, they send me these like nasty emails.
• 1:00:09
  unknown: Okay.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh why why why don't they send you nasty emails?
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um they just don't like what how I do things.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um that is okay.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_02: That is okay.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like for the uh years now I learned to take that graciously.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, just um just um those of you who are curious what I do, um pray for me how the Lord leads you.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_02: And um, if Lord says go and check YouTube, go and check YouTube as well.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um name of the channel is DCCI Ministries or Hatuntaish DCCI Ministries.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: But prayer would be appreciated.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, we would love to.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: We would love to pray for you.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and just on that one, I was I wasn't I was gonna finish already, but is do do people complain because you're very you're very direct and that you don't just you know lift up Christ, you critique Islam.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is is that something of what's going on?
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so um I think now these decades um kind of uh we live in a society where people's feelings are more important.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: So when Christian sees you are critiquing Islam, uh and that kind of causes reaction from Muslims, they think that is not the right way to reach Muslims.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: We need to build friendships, um, that's the best way to reach Muslims.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: So they don't like debate um discussions, and um that kind of makes them to look at the scripture and identify um how I do things.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mainly focus on polemics and apologetics.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um they kind of come to conclusion that is not Jesus' way or that is not biblical way.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um critics are usually in that way.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: And to them, what do you what what do you say?
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like how do you respond to somebody who says, oh, just play nice, Hatun?
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's very nice way you said it.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: It usually doesn't come that nice.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I usually kind of say in the lines of, of course, it is different how the email comes, but at the end, in the body of Christ, we are all unique and we've got different gifts and different skills, and that is a good thing because our God is unique.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you don't want everyone to use the same methodology um or be exactly the same.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, all you need to do is prayfully consider if the way you are doing things, um it's still like your conscious is clear what you are saying and how you are doing things, and it has been um supported by the scripture.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: At the end, I am Christian, scripture is supreme authority for me, and my conscience is clear that um using apologetic and polemics is biblical.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I I'm also convinced that like making someone um kind of live up, give up Islam is not the same thing helping someone to know our glorious gospel.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: So solution is always Lord Jesus Christ.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, we will disagree the way we do things.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I usually say, pray for me, um Lord, guidance, and if how I am doing things is not honoring him, that he will discipline me and he will make those things clear.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and I would add to that, you know, you you've mentioned that beautiful verse in Matthew chapter 11, from verse 28, Jesus says, Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest, take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you've you've drawn our attention to the gentle and humble of heart nature of Jesus.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's 1000% true.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: And yet three verses uh four verses earlier, Jesus has said, Woe to you, Korazan, woe to you, Bethsida.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's he Jesus is able to say woe to things that are not of him, even as he says, I'm gentle and humble in heart.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think people can see uh even in the in this interview, Hatun, you you have a heart that that beats with and for the Lord Jesus and his gentle and lowly heart.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: And at times you say, Woe to this and woe to that, and I don't think that's uh unchrist-like, in fact, I think that is very Christ-like, and I'm so so proud uh to count you as a sister, Hatun, and uh I will pray for you and uh I urge people to uh check out DCCI Ministries and to learn from Hatun how to have that that love for Jesus.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: That means we go out from ourselves and even uh at risk to ourselves uh preach the good news of Jesus.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Hatun, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, everyone.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: Great to have you with us.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again to Hatun Tash for coming on the show.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was wonderful to be able to talk to you and we pray for you and your ministry.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: We will be back soon with more conversations, plenty more where this came from.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's that's what we do at Speak Life.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: We want to bring you conversations which see all of life with Jesus at the center.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: We want to make much of him and uh invite you on that journey with us.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of that, we actually have another house party coming up.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash house party, uh, it will bring up a little button that you can click to sign up.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you just need to give us your email, and then you'll receive the zoom link when the time comes.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you're new to Speak Life, the house parties are things that we do three times a year, and it's an opportunity to join us on an actually interesting Zoom call.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: There'll be a guest to be confirmed.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a great way to chill out with uh the Speak Life team and fellow Speak Life supporters, and let's together stand shoulder to shoulder and look at the person of Jesus and just be inspired.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that's what we need.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: As we go into spring, it's gonna be great.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, May the 4th, 8 pm online.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash houseparty to sign up.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there we go.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: God bless.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time.