Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK Assassination - Ep. 281 - Just Following Orders

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JFK Assassination - Ep. 281 - Just Following Orders · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

0:03
And so my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you,
0:11
ask what you can do for your country. Tears Jewry, said Joey
0:17
joby, and then trumble Bee Babe, and Jumbleby said Joey rock Cogie shoo
0:23
red trimble me, then Joby show me and trimble be bame, and Jumboby
0:29
said Joby rock Cockie job a wrathy joy. I would thinking the true the
0:43
bad chef jam is long going back and here we go and you you go.
1:02
What's up? Joe was almost no show Joe tonight. He barely made
1:07
it. I made it by a minute. He was under a minute.
1:11
Brother, Well, I had to reset the router to make sure our viewers
1:23
have the best quality. So I did it in time, and uh,
1:30
here we go. How are you today, sir? How was your week?
1:34
I'm fantastic. Week sucked, but it's Friday night and it's time to
1:38
party. It's time to do a show. It's time to hang out with
1:42
our peeps. What's up everybody in the comments section? I see we've got
1:48
them some thanking to do already. To Jack and John, we appreciate it.
1:53
Thank you so much for the super chats. Thank you yes, you
1:59
guys rock, You guys rock. And I see some people speculating about what
2:02
we're gonna be talking about tonight. Let's see Ashley's Ashley's tore up already down
2:09
there in Australia. That's all right, go to bed and catch us tomorrow,
2:15
my friend. Yes, replay crew is okay. Scott's getting ready to
2:23
tie one on Claudes here, James is in the house, mister Bungle the
2:32
dancer, Ashley Man, Scott, I'm excited about this when Joe, I
2:40
think last week was kind of a dudge for us. But we're gonna redeem
2:46
ourselves this week, I promise you. We've got a very interesting show.
2:50
And it comes on the heels of something that our guest that we had on
2:55
the show two shows ago, John Limb back something that we touched on in
3:00
the show. We talked about Lauren Hall and a certain Carkano that he ended
3:09
up giving to his son. So and then I came across something else,
3:15
an article from nineteen eighty four and called the Guns that Killed Kennedy by Jay
3:24
David Truby. And it's a very obscure piece, but in the article it
3:31
mentioned something that I had totally forgotten about. And it's been a very long
3:38
time since I read this book. I got a first edition seventy six has
3:43
a sweet picture of Robert Moore on the back with a corkano I remembered something
3:53
about and who was it? I think it was gardening guns pointed out that
3:58
something looks suss with the rifle in the picture for the show, and yeah,
4:03
that's a seven point three five millimeter car Kano, okay. And the
4:10
reason that that significant is that is the exact same rifle that Lauren Hall gave
4:15
to his step son. And h we'll get into that a little bit for
4:19
those to miss the show. And I really want to read you part of
4:24
that article so you can actually know the the relevance of what his step son
4:32
has to say. But before we get into all that, so a lot
4:36
of the stems we're going to get into Robert Morrow, We're going to get
4:40
into the carcano. But part of Robert Moore's story, okay, is that
4:46
he was a CIA contract agent from nineteen sixty one to sixty four. So
4:56
he claims, of course, official documentation is sketchy at best for his actions
5:03
because of course being a contract agent, there's very likely not going to be
5:08
a paper trail. But this book that he wrote, he got away with
5:14
being able to publish his book in nineteen seventy six as quote unquote historical fiction.
5:27
Yes, okay, same as The Night Watch, right. Yeah.
5:31
The bottoline of the book is a reconstruction of certain clandestine events from the Bay
5:35
of Pigs to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. So some of the
5:43
stuff in this book might be a little glamorized or spiced up a little bit.
5:47
Some of it could be made up from whole cloth. Some of it
5:50
could be true, and it's up to us to try to figure out what
5:54
is what. But when you start finding things from more multiple sources that kind
6:00
of makes sense, it's very hard to ignore. And one of them things
6:05
we're gonna be talking about today is that seven point three five millimeter man look
6:12
at carcano rifle. But we'll get into that, I promise. So.
6:15
But when Joe to set the table first with his alleged handler, a fellow
6:19
by the name of Tracy Barnes who worked for the CIA. He was the
6:24
director of domestic Operations, I believe during the time of the Kennedy assassination and
6:30
uh, I don't really know too much about him, and luckily Joe has
6:33
done a little digging, so I'm going to turn it over to I'm not
6:38
going to call you the sexy beast from the Northeast today. Oh come on,
6:42
I want I was, I was fishing for it. I was not
6:47
going to do that. You're sleeping creepy today, am I? Yeah,
6:59
I wasn't. Put can't compliment you very often, you know, I know,
7:02
I know, I know. And for those of you watching, and
7:05
real quick, Joe before you start, let me throw this up on the
7:09
screen and remind everybody to like this video, subscribe to the channel if you
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have not already, and make sure you hit that little bill to get notified
7:18
when new episodes drop. It helps a lot with our algorithms. Yes everyone
7:27
says that, but it is true. And I believe we are up thirty
7:33
forty percent and subscribers since Lancer, So we have a lot of new subscribers
7:40
and we want to thank those who have and thank you Colonel reb for your
7:46
ten dollars. Super sad, A lot of people who watch the show are
7:48
not subscribed. So if you're digging what you're hearing and you like the show.
7:53
Just hit the subscribe button. It doesn't cost anything, yes and yeah.
8:00
So I admittedly did not know like a ton about mister Tracy Barnes.
8:13
So I was wondering, who was this guy's cooper. He could be well,
8:20
hey, he was a paratrooper, as I give, hey, it's
8:24
possible. You you can strap two hundred thousand dollars on his ass. Oh
8:28
yeah, he could make it to the ground. That might be like take
8:33
one of the hijacking seeing if he could strap that on, because you know
8:39
it was it was very common for the leg straps of the extra weapons of
8:48
the paratroopers of Norman Dy because of the high speeds that they would get ripped
8:54
off, and apparently D. B. Cooper figured that out. But back
9:00
to Tracy Barnes. He was born in nineteen eleven in Long Island, New
9:03
York, about forty five minutes from me, and he served with the US
9:09
Army Air Force Intelligence in the OSS in World War Two. He joined and
9:18
I put that in quotations because that's in nineteen fifty one, but if you
9:24
were with the OSS, you were probably with the OSS and then transferred to
9:33
the CIA, and in nineteen fifty three he served as deputy director of the
9:39
Psychological Strategy Board during the Korean War and was a principal case officer involved in
9:46
the Guatemalan Coup of fifty four. So there is a couple of interesting things
9:52
here because the Psychological Strategy Board, that is when all the Korean War veterans
10:00
started coming back and they were quote unquote brainwashed, right, and that led
10:11
the paranoid intelligence services to think that other people had figured out mind control,
10:18
which resulted and guess what, Rob what is that, Sir mk Ultra Eventually
10:28
yes, yes, yes, the Manchurian candidates. Yeah, that's written line
10:33
there. Yeah, but yeah, it started because the the veterans from the
10:43
Korean War came back brainwashed and they were like, what have they figured out
10:46
that we haven't. So anyways, fifty four to fifty six Chief of Station
10:50
Germany, which is interesting, was General Walker there in Germany in fifty four
10:58
to fifty six. I know he left in sixty one. That would be
11:01
interesting, but quite possibly, yeah, maybe some of the comments. And
11:07
fifty seven to fifty nine, not seventy nine, Chief of Station in London
11:15
Google Machine. In nineteen sixty he was appointed Director of Plans under Richard Bissell
11:22
Junior and helped plan the Bay of Pigs operation, which took place in April
11:28
sixty one. In nineteen sixty two, as you mentioned, he was made
11:35
head of Domestic Operations Division of the CIA, which was obviously the domestic division.
11:45
But interesting about his experience in the Guatemalan coup. And I'm going to
11:52
read a little part from someone would have talked by the great Larry Hancock,
11:58
is that he would have had to the ability to build relationships with a lot
12:05
of the characters we talk about frequently, right, David attlee Phillips, e,
12:13
Howard Hunt, even though yea, we might not think of him as
12:22
a plotter, David Morales, he was very it seemed to be fast,
12:33
fast tracked. And that is what I'm going to read from someone would have
12:39
talked and real quick. Walker was not in Germany until fifty nine. Okay,
12:48
thank magedly Ower cool. But so this is what Larry Hancock wrote,
13:00
and someone would have talked, And of course it's all park. Pull it
13:05
up, Joe. I'm gonna read it because that's an ironic title, by
13:15
the way, because this book is full of people that did talk, right,
13:20
Yes, kind of like the title of this podcast. It's ironic.
13:37
Hmm, blunt Man, were really? No, there's you new? There's
13:43
your new nickname. No, that's all. You're no longer the silk or
13:50
Ship. You no longer the sexy beast from northeast almost in Silk City,
13:54
So well, why don't you plug that while I find this? Hey,
14:01
everybody, if you're looking for some damn good hot sauce to put on your
14:07
delicious food and make it even more delicious, then I would highly recommend you
14:13
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14:20
where you can order some hot sauce. Put in the code Gunman that's g
14:24
U n m An for twenty percent off your entire quorder. You won't regret
14:30
it. It is delicious and fantastic and succulent and so so delicious it is.
14:37
And uh I had some of this morning, sir, and I have
14:39
good news. I found it so without further ado, and I apologize for
14:46
the a class croissant. With the comments provided by readers of the research manuscript,
14:58
if someone would have talked, it is become clear that further background information
15:01
needed to provide on other CIA career officers involved. In Cuban affairs. One
15:07
of the most senior officers was Tracy Barnes. He played a key role in
15:13
CIA's Cuba project, serving as second to Richard Bissel. Next, he took
15:20
a follow up assignment to head the cia somewhat mysterious Domestic Operations Division. It
15:28
was in this latter position that he recruited I. Howard Hunt to serve as
15:31
his senior covert operations officer. Much of the following information has provided courtesy of
15:41
the intelligence literature of research of Pat Spear, especially the available public history of
15:48
the CIA domestic operations. The possible link between the Domestic Contract Service Contact Service
15:58
also raised the possibility of another point of contact with le Oswald. In nineteen
16:03
sixty three, during World War II, Tracy Barnes served in the OSS in
16:08
Europe and gained the confidence of Alan Dulles while working with him on an unsuccessful
16:15
project to obtain an early German surrender. Barnes became one of the first generation
16:22
of x OSS officers who formed the core and leadership of the CIA when he
16:29
joined in nineteen fifty seven. Nineteen forty seven, I'm sorry, so does
16:34
that line up with the nineteen fifty one timeline given by the CIA's website,
16:42
it does not, as the dates usually do not. With the beginning of
16:48
the Korean conflict, Barnes joined the CIA as Chief of Political and Psychological developed
16:55
a department staff, and devoted much of his energy to CIA operations in that
17:00
conflict. Years later, David Phillips would write that Barnes' first attempt at a
17:04
report on the successful peb success operation I'll get into that. I promise we'll
17:12
get there project in Guatemala had to be entirely reworked because it had consisted primarily
17:21
of Barnes's remarks about operations in Korea. So this this was what you would
17:33
call a holy cow of the CIA. Thank you, Trey, Yes,
17:38
Tray, you see what he says there. The son of a bitch did
17:41
liberty lot. No, he didn't know. He didn't. I don't know
17:52
if he is doing it intentionally or if he's doing it to mock you.
17:59
Hang on, hang on, Joe. I got an incoming message. Hey,
18:03
Okay, this is Mark Kruber, along with my girlfriend Derek Huntley from
18:06
America's Really Old Stories. You are about to hear the most listened to exclusively.
18:11
JFK Assassination podcast and one of my favorites, the Lone Gunman podcast.
18:17
Now here's Rob and Joe. Sorry, so thank you. I don't know
18:26
what do? Uh? What? What? What are people? Hi,
18:30
Colleen? What do people in the chat think? Do they think Robert is
18:33
doing this intentionally? Or do they think that he laughing gas? Right now
18:38
from the dentist. She's sitting on her couch drooling, laughing her ass off
18:42
at us. Colleen. Oh yeah, she's all swollen, drool flying everywhere
18:52
night. Yeah, laughing gas is nitrous. Yeah, it's uh definitely make
19:00
you laugh. Liberty Lobbity, Yeah, I don't know. I'm fifty to
19:10
fifty on it. But so I wanted to then talk about some of his
19:26
how do see? Tray said it was unintentional? I don't know, Trey,
19:30
I don't know. I know, I might say, would Trey?
19:34
I I don't know. I just don't know if if if Greer is like
19:42
that, dial then to know like he's just like his only thing that he
19:49
he at least he listened to the show. I don't know about. No.
19:52
No, Contley does Cutley does, because that's where he gets a lot
19:56
of he doesn't know anything. Oh, my god. Bro. Okay,
20:02
we're going to save this for a locals exclusive. But I message ropped today
20:08
about something I heard about a guest who we were just talking about, And
20:15
let me just say that a disaster is an understatement as to his thoughts on
20:25
the questions this particular person asked him, it was. I was shocked.
20:30
It was unbelievable. So we'll save that. But anyways, So Operation PB's
20:37
success was the Guatemala Coup in nineteen fifty four. Eisenhower authorized it as a
20:44
covert action to remove the leader replace our bands with a more moderate leader.
20:49
CIA trained operatives including Tracy Barnes, David morales E, Howard Hunt, David
20:55
Attley Phillips, and William Rip Robertson's boy. Yes, sir, they were
21:03
serious people and they were involved in they dropped a hundred thousand pamphlets over Guatemala,
21:12
uh, detailing the communist people in Guatemala. I don't know. I'm
21:21
sure there's a pamphlets. I know. Oh, that's that's a different question,
21:29
guy. So this PB success, ironically was a huge success, as
21:37
in within a week they had removed Jacob Arbnz Chicago are Benz and replaced him
21:48
with Castillo or something like that. But uh and uh, the people involved
21:59
in that were rewarded greatly, including Barnes and a lot of the names I
22:08
just mentioned. Later, Barnes and Bissel regretted the outcome of the Guatemala coup.
22:15
Okay, in November fifty four, Barnes replaced General Lucienne Truscott as head
22:26
of CIA, and Frankfurt I think we already went over that. And at
22:30
this time William Harvey, Shackley and Morales were also in Germany allegedly, which
22:38
is very interesting because you have to think the operation as as as planned would
22:48
be between people that you could trust. This is an interesting document I found.
22:55
And Tracy Barnes was involved in deciding the Cuban Revolutionary Council's budget in nineteen
23:04
sixty one in July, and their current budget at a level of one hundred
23:11
thousand a month, that is more than a million dollars in today. Oh
23:18
my go a million dollars a month? Times are by that I mean something
23:25
nothing to what we're giving these days. But either way, Uh, sorry
23:30
that my Fitzer impression. Claude wanted me to do that real quick. Oh
23:33
I miss that. I'm sorry, I bro Fezer is before my time.
23:41
I just try Tom No, I'm just saying like I just never paid attention
23:48
to They know you didn't pay it. You just weren't interested in the case
23:52
early enough to pay attention to him. He's been irrelevant for twenty years,
23:59
right, Okay, So yeah, that's fair for Cocoa. So he's so
24:10
he's essentially trying to reduce the budget but still give them over five hundred and
24:27
ten grand a month. But the next one is from a week or two
24:36
later, and he is talking about plausible deniability and he goes everyone else like
24:45
Miami, like I think he's talking about jam Wave will either indicate no knowledge
24:51
or no comment with respect to CIA repayments. It has not felt that this
24:56
will prevent the story coming out, but believe that the story will be relatively
25:02
relatively short lived and that the no comment phrase gives it little food on which
25:08
it's two feet. So this guy was on like the David Attlee. Phillips
25:14
propaganda level, do you agree, rob Yes, which was very interesting.
25:26
He's up there with guys like Morales and Hunt and Harvey and you know Robertson
25:32
and dude, these are all legit field ops, you know what I mean.
25:37
So, yeah, these are legit badasses of the CIA. That's why
25:40
we know who they were. That's why we know their names. You know,
25:45
they overthrew governments, they were successful in it, and uh, they
25:49
were dirty players. They knew how to play the games and benefit themselves and
25:56
they ran and they ran assassination programs or trained for them. So that puts
26:03
them automatically as suspects. But was Tracy Tracy Barnes, someone who had pre
26:11
knowledge, was a plotter? That's a huge question that I'm not prepared to
26:18
answer yet personally. Why I have an answer, I don't know if it's
26:22
legit or not. But okay, let's hear it. According to Robert Morrow,
26:30
the answer to your question, Joe, is a big hill. Yes,
26:37
So let me see something here real quick, all right. So Robert
26:47
Morrow legedly worked with the CIA from sixty one to sixty four. He says
26:55
he was ordered to buy four Italian man Liquor Carcano rifles by his CIA case
27:00
officer, Tracy Barnes, in nineteen sixty three, following his testimony before the
27:07
House Select Committee on Assassinations. Now, I didn't know that Robert Morrow testified
27:14
before the HSCA. I've never seen his testimony ever or reference to it ever,
27:21
so that must be something deep in the belly of the National Archives that
27:25
nobody's seen that would be an interesting FOY request. Yeah, and since today,
27:34
in nineteen eighty four, when this article was written, not even his
27:38
closest friends are sure where he is or even if he is. As you're
27:42
hearing his story, it's not difficult to see why this man has been very
27:45
high up on some very premium hit lists. According Tomorrow, the Kennedy assassination
27:52
was a conspiracy involving a cabal of Cuban exiles, okay, EXCIA gunman,
27:59
renegade people who were who were still active with the company, And he says,
28:04
I want to stress though the JFK's murder was not an official or even
28:07
unofficial CIA operation, even though there were CIA people involved. It was a
28:15
freelance effort. Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy who was framed for the crime.
28:22
Oswald never shot anyone, nor was the so called Oswald rifle used to
28:26
shoot anyone. On the contrary, the four rifles I was ordered to buy
28:32
were intended for that assassination. In Dallas. Oswald's rifle was a six point
28:37
five millimeter Carkano rifle. The ones I bought were seven point thirty five millimeter
28:42
models. The ones I bought were selected specifically as sniper rifles and were quite
28:48
excellent weapons with excellent telescopic sights mounted on to them. The Oswald rifle was,
28:56
by comparison, a piece of inaccurate junk with a malfunc functioning site.
29:03
He says, you know, he bought these on CIA orders and the weapon
29:11
which appears to have been employed in this criminal act to boost you know what
29:15
he's saying here. So. A declassified CIA memo written six days after the
29:19
Kennedy murder adds strong evidence supporting More's contention. The weapon which appears to have
29:26
been employed in this criminal act is a Model ninety one seven point three to
29:30
five millimeter nineteen thirty eight modification. The CIA report noted that is exactly the
29:37
same type of weapon purchased by Moro. And then there was supposedly a thirty
29:44
point weapon analysis which was transmitted from Italy to CIA headquarters. The agency's experts
29:48
strongly questioned an assassin using the six point five milimeters weapon attributed to Oswald.
29:55
The report noted that the first lot of seven thousand Model ninety one's zero point
30:00
five millimeter rifle had disastrous results. Many of them burst with frequent fatal consequences
30:07
to the shooter, and many didn't fire at all. The six point five
30:12
millimeter rifles of the type owned by Lee Oswall were sold to US arms dealers
30:17
for as little as a dollar ten cents each. The CIA report noted these
30:22
weapons were imported into the US class as quote scrap iron. On the other
30:27
hand, as Moro pointed out, the seven point three to five sniper rifles
30:30
were accurate and reliable weapons with a much longer barrel than the the Oswald model
30:40
six and a half millimeter of the type of professional assassin would could use.
30:48
In a hit like the Kennedy murder, A switch could easily be made after
30:52
the shooting to the smaller junkie weapon that could be used to tie Oswald to
30:55
Passey as evidence of his work. As the Lone Assassin goes on to say,
31:00
at the time I purchased a seven point thirty five millimeters rifles, I
31:03
had no idea what they were to be used for. I was ordered only
31:08
to buy them and deliver them to another CIA man. Later, from a
31:14
variety of sources, Moros was able to learn the chilling story behind his purchase
31:18
of the surplus military rifles. So he was actually ordered to buy these rifles
31:29
in Baltimore. And I don't know if anybody watched The Irishman. Joji watched
31:34
The Irishman? Yeah, I love it all right. Well, there's a
31:37
scene in there where David Ferry, yes, actually comes to Baltimore to get
31:44
four Carkano rifles and radio equipment to take back to New Orleans. Okay,
31:51
And this is coming from a totally separate source, totally separate, totally separate.
31:59
The worry is out there. So who is this Robert Morrow guy?
32:07
So let's figure this out. So he was born in nineteen thirty. He
32:10
went to Pennsylvania Military College, became an engineer in Pittsburgh, and in nineteen
32:15
fifty six he joined the Martin Company. Joe, you can't make it,
32:23
you can't make it all, you can't make it. As a senior engineer
32:28
in Baltimore, Maryland, and fifty eight, Moro moved to Washington, where
32:31
he set up an independent lab at his home on Hazelwood Avenue and For the
32:37
next six months, he works with Stan Clark on the Doomsday Project. Okay,
32:43
can I stop you there? Yes, did a ship? Did a
32:50
ship containing I know our common friend Doug talks about it the Block nine part
33:00
from Baltimore. It surely did, sir, Just cure, just put that
33:07
thought about that randomly? Ye, pray continue, sir. Yeah. In
33:12
July he joined the Neurology Project with doctor John Ciple of Georgetown University. These
33:21
are classified CA projects of which I could find not very much, but you
33:28
know they're along the lines of you know, early MK ultra type stuff.
33:34
AREO KLi Okay. Now, this guy arrived in the US in February fifty
33:39
nine and began organizing exile groups against Castro. This guy is responsible for organizing
33:45
the c RC, which you may have heard of. That was an organization
33:52
in the Balterer building, you know, upstairs from Guy Banister, run by
33:57
Sergey R. Conscious Smith. Okay, that we just detailed was getting a
34:05
million dollars a month in nineteen the CIA was funding groups like this and let's
34:15
see Diggs. Soon afterwards, Coley met dig Marshall Diggs, and in March
34:20
of nineteen sixty Diggs recruited Morow to work for this guy Coley. Three months
34:27
later, Moro met Tracy Barnes and agreed to beat Coley's CIA contact. Coley
34:35
agreed to accept help from the CIA and overthrowing Castro, and in July sixty
34:39
established the Cuban Revolutionary Council or the CRC, and according to Morrow, the
34:45
CRC informed John F. Kennedy of CIA plans to invade Cuba during the nineteen
34:50
sixty Democratic National Convention. Morow also claimed that Coley met Richard Nixon and the
34:54
CIA in October of nineteen sixty and this resulted in the formation of Operation forty,
35:00
which he might have heard of Wow. In March sixty one, Coley's
35:07
three hundred man guerrilla army and the s Cambray Mountains was decimated by Castro's forces,
35:14
and this damaged the potential success of the Bay of Pigs. Operation.
35:16
Coley now changed his strategy and with the help of Morrow, he started a
35:21
counterfeiting operation to undermine the Cuban economy. Now eventually later Colly would get busted
35:28
by the FBI for this counterfeit scheme, and despite pleased that he was doing
35:32
on behalf of our own government, they still put him in jail, so
35:39
Moro continued to work for the CIA, and he traveled to France to pick
35:44
up a package for Tracy Barnes, and while in Europe, he bought arms
35:46
for Coli'S new army, and in July of nineteen sixty three, Joe Moro
35:52
claims the Tracy Barnes requested that I purchased four man liquor seven point three five
35:58
millimeters for plus rifles. According to Barnes, the rifles were available in the
36:02
Baltimore area from Sonny's supply store. Upon MY agreement to make the purchase,
36:07
Barnes requested that I alter the four piece of each rifle so the rifles could
36:12
be dismantled, hidden, and reassembled quickly. I thought this last request odd
36:16
until I was informed that the rifles were to be used for a clan destined
36:20
operation. The following day. Morow claimed that Elaidio Devalier Okay asked him to
36:29
purchase four transceivers, and in August of sixty three, David Ferry picked up
36:37
the rifles and transceivers from Robert Morrow in Baltimore. Morow believed that the idea
36:43
was to blame Fidel Castro for the assassination of John F. Kennedy in order
36:45
to trigger an invasion of Cuba in October sixty three, I said earlier,
36:51
Cully was arrested by the FBI and sentenced to two years in prison, convicted
36:57
in April sixty four, so he was out during the assassin nation. But
37:01
in nineteen seventy six More published his book Betrayal, a reconstruction of certain clandestine
37:08
events from the Bay of Pigs to the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
37:13
Again, very cool book. It's a quick, easy read, and I
37:21
recommend it. I mean, I think it's a it's a good read,
37:25
even if it is mostly faction fiction. Is probably based a lot on the
37:35
fact it might be embellished a little. I mean, you can you can
37:38
see. I think the first chapter, I think jumps into him and him
37:44
and David Ferry landing in the dead of night somewhere in Cuba clandestinely and rescue
37:51
and like rescuing some prisoners and getting shot at and all this jazz and they
37:55
barely make it out live. So it's pretty crazy. Yeah, So this
38:06
is how it triggered me. You know, this thing Joe with the seven
38:12
point three five millimeter rifles that our guests brought up the other day or a
38:20
couple of weeks ago. Actually that currently now when this when this first broke
38:29
a couple of years ago, I believe Doug and I did do something on
38:32
it. Oh hey, look, Phelipe Hemmings in the house. Jerry hemmingson.
38:37
Hello, sir, long time no speaking. So I think Philipe thinks
38:45
that all this Robert Morris stuff is horseshit probably, But let's talk a little
38:52
bit about uh this story and uh so this thing came out in a Florida
39:05
newspaper called the Tampa Bay Times in October twenty twenty one, and it says
39:13
like almost every one of a certain age, Jim Pappis remembers clearly how when
39:17
he learned that President John F. Kennedy had been murdered in Dallas. Papas
39:22
would go on to become a dean of USF's business school, and he has
39:27
retired in Tampa. Now, I guess that's the University of Southern Florida.
39:31
But on that day, Pappus was a sophomore at UCLA attending a lecture in
39:36
anthropology, and someone walked in with a note for the professor who announced the
39:40
news. Pappus's reaction was not grief or fear or disbelief, but instead,
39:49
instead of learning upon the president's death, was O hell, Where's Skip?
39:54
Sorry? So? Skip was the nickname for Lauren Ee Hallor, who was
40:00
married to Pappus's mother. A soldier of Fortune, All was prominent in the
40:04
Free Cuba paramilitary forces trying to overthrow the government of Fidel Castro. All had
40:08
been circulating in Dallas trying to raise money for the cause. Some supporters harbored
40:15
a bitter hatred of President Kennedy, blaming him for the failed invasion of the
40:17
Bay of Pigs and angry that Kennedy had abandoned the island to Communist rule.
40:27
So for fifty seven years, John Baptist John Pappis kept a secret. This
40:34
past spring, however, he started talking with his brother about the rifle,
40:37
and together they approached me with their suspicions that their mother's husband was part of
40:43
a plot to murder the president. Over six months, I interviewed the Papist
40:47
brothers several times. We consulted firearms experts, family records, and old court
40:52
files. I also reached one of Skips Hall's sons from her previous marriage.
40:57
As I edged toward the central question, Larry Hall cut me off. Where
41:00
are we going with this? He demanded, Well, I responded, two
41:04
sons of the woman your father married. I believe he was involved in the
41:07
murder of President Kennedy. He says, I know all about that. Larry
41:10
Hall answered, and I'm not saying anything about it, which sounds just like
41:15
his father. Then he hung up for the Papist brothers. The last remote
41:21
chance to settle their family mystery could come down to a decision by Joe Biden
41:25
later this month about the secret files. So yeah, Basically, a couple
41:36
of days after the assassination, Lauren Hall gives it a rifle to his step
41:43
son. He says, John, take this rifle. And I believe he
41:52
was the youngest one and he had an older brother, Jim. He says,
42:00
John, take this rifle. Papa says, Skip told him put it
42:05
away, don't touch it, don't talk about it. When John asked,
42:07
what's this all about, Skip replied, you'll know. The carcano was the
42:13
same make as the rifle Oswald got through the mail from a sporting goods company
42:15
in Chicago. The one difference is, of course the UH one was a
42:23
six point five millimeter carcano and the other was a seven point three to five
42:27
milimeter carcano. Somebody was trying to make a hunting rifle, said al La
42:32
Finger, a retired federal agent and firearms consultant. At the request of the
42:37
Tampa Bay Times, he studied various photos of the Papa's rifle. That would
42:42
be the only reason for somebody to add a scope unless they were going to
42:45
shoot the President. Papas sent the rifle for testing an examination to Lucian Luke
42:51
Hogg, a firearms expert in Arizona. Although it came from the same Italian
42:54
armory as Oswald's. Hogg that determined that it was an older verse version that
43:00
took slightly larger bullets. Yeah, no, no doubt. It was a
43:05
different a different millimeter. Months after he handed over that rifle to his step
43:12
son, Skip told John something else about the assassination. He says, there
43:15
were two people on that grassyn where witnesses says they saw a shooter and one
43:21
was there to kill JFK. And the other was there to make sure it
43:23
happened. And from everybody that listened to the show, a couple of weeks
43:29
ago. You know that Lauren Hall's alibi was total dog shit, and he
43:39
was more than likely in Dallas. So when you start to put all these
43:47
things together about a seven point three to five millimeters rifle, somebody's bringing these
43:52
things, you know, on the orders of Tracy Barnes. I mean,
43:58
he's talking about this in nineteen seventy six. This is fifty years before we
44:05
even find out about the PAPIs rifle. And I actually have some pictures.
44:12
We were in contact a couple of years ago, me and Doug with this
44:15
fella, John Pappis, and he was nice enough to send us some photos
44:21
of this Carcano rifle that Skip gave him. So this is basically looking down
44:25
the barrel. You see the bold action right. There's another picture from the
44:32
top side the bolt. This is a side view, you know. You
44:42
see that trigger guard you think automatically, Uh, Carcano, that's where the
44:45
magazine goes into the top, comes out at the bottom empty and here is
44:52
the butt. The butt of the rifle. Now as nice as Maria,
45:00
but uh, according to John James Herbert Martin, he likes moving his butt
45:09
much better. But that is the butt of the rifle, and you know
45:15
these from from the way John limback talked. These guys were willing to let
45:21
people inspect it, hold it, shoot it, whatever they want to do
45:23
with it. And we were actually almost Doug Eye and uh, Mike from
45:31
Wall Street Window, We're going to make a trip to Oregon and check it
45:35
out a couple of years ago. But then COVID. You know, this
45:38
was in the middle of all that nonsense. So so what do you think,
45:43
uh dB Cooper Kahn and set the answer this year, Rob or check
45:50
out the rifle or what that'd be interesting? Ah, although uh, I
45:59
do have to bring up something that are mutual. Hang on real quick,
46:04
real quick, Joe, because I see I say Philippe in the in the
46:07
comments, and you know what, Philippe, one day, we'd love to
46:12
have you back on the show because I want to talk to you about this
46:15
Johnson rifle that your dad had for sure and find out what you know about
46:22
it. I think think for an interesting show and what and what Philippe thinks
46:29
about all these other guys like Hall and Howard and his relationship with Hall and
46:37
when it went sour right well yeah, yeah, I mean this is all
46:45
right about the same time. Right, but it would be interesting to hear.
46:50
Hey, that's right colleens in Oregon. She says, h how can
46:54
she help? Hey, go track down John Pappis and got that rifle.
47:00
Get us some good, high quality shots of that rifle. Go to dB
47:07
Cooper con. Apparently it's a real party and like everyone celebrates and dresses up
47:15
and uh, I don't know. And there's rumors that DBI Cooper once attended
47:22
d B Cooper Con. Right, of course, that is yeah, complete
47:30
complete. You got about as many teeth in your head now as old Larry
47:32
Crayford head. Colleen, you got five taken out today? Oh God,
47:40
bless you. That would be cool, that would be a cool fine.
47:45
Yeah, well we're off. I want I want to follow up on something
47:49
you said earlier. Okay, you mentioned that there was nothing about hold on
47:58
real quick. I just gotta say this. Colleen said, bite me,
48:00
Bob, And I'll just say, at least I can bite you, Colleen,
48:05
because I have all my teeth. Are you wait? You're messing with
48:16
your queen, Colleen? Are you crazy? Look she's getting new ones.
48:22
It's all good, it's all good, it's all She's a brand new Okay,
48:29
I've learned not to mess with Colleen som No. We we love you,
48:35
Colleen, We just because we love yes. Okay. So I came
48:39
across this HCA document and uh, there were a number of individuals agency employees,
48:47
employees of other government departments, or cooperating individuals, both foreign an American,
48:55
UH, whose names are concealed, that their identification identification is RHEE readily
49:06
ascertainable, it is inevitable in such detailed review. That is a good deal.
49:14
Blah blah blah. Uh. This draft makes extensive use of the true
49:19
names of employees and individuals who were involved the deaths of such persons as senior
49:28
government officials and of Alan Dulles, C B. Cabell, Desmond Fitzgerald,
49:35
Sheffield Edwards, Tracy Barnes, and salvatore g and Conna Oh, Sammy D.
49:43
Sammy G. May O viviate the need I don't know what the fucking
49:52
word means. They need to protect their names and association AV Yeah, this
50:00
sounds about right, but the events treated in the draft report, so they
50:06
were trying to hide Tracy Barnes name's name in the HCA. And maybe that's
50:16
why you did not see anything about Robert Morrow's testimony in the HCA. Yeah,
50:30
well, I'm saying it could It could be. If they're gonna tell
50:34
you what names they're not going to talk about, They're definitely not going to
50:38
tell you the names they're definitely not gonna talk about, right, Yeah,
50:45
in theory, I don't know. Yeah, So I was just looking.
50:53
I remember I thought Morrow basic laid all this stuff at the at the feet
51:04
of traffic conte And what more went on to say is, well, eventually
51:09
Robert Moore did come out of wherever he was hiding from and write another book
51:15
right after the film JFK came out how convenient called firsthand Knowledge in nineteen ninety
51:22
two. And what he did in this book, he basically laid it out
51:27
like this, folks, the execute way. Can I stop you? You
51:30
said his dates of CIA contract was sixty one through sixty four. Yeah,
51:37
okay, I just want to point that out. Yeah. The execution of
51:43
John F. Kennedy would be performed by a series of teams selected from CIA
51:45
sponsored exile and mercenary groups in Miami and New Orleans. The modus operandez to
51:55
be employed would be very simple. The murder of the president could not re
52:00
zumble a standard syndicate killing. It should ideally be made to look as if
52:05
it were the work of a lone guman. As a sure kill could not
52:07
be guaranteed by the work of only one gumman, two additional firing sites would
52:12
be necessary. The next item to pursue was the involvement of Fidel Castro.
52:17
Now this is where we might go start going off the rails here a little
52:22
bit, okay, he says. Trafficante planned the scenario. He would act
52:28
as a double agent and through an intermediary, warren Castro. Now this is
52:31
a pretty clever plot if you really think about it. He would warn Castro
52:36
that the CIA, under a presidential directive, would execute another assassination attempt on
52:42
the Cuban dictator's life. Trafficante would then select two expendable subordinates who would be
52:47
set up to murder Castro. The hitmen, under the impression that they were
52:52
actually working for the CIA, would of course be caught by Castro and reveal,
52:58
after having been tortured, the identity of their supposed employer as further evidence
53:05
of their CIA affiliation. They would be equipped with assassination items readily identifiable with
53:10
further or with the clandestine agency. With both this evidence and the confessions of
53:15
the hitman, Fidel Castro would undoubtedly make a statement indicating his desire for revenge
53:21
against the United States government, and after the death of JFK. Castro's statement
53:25
would be viewed as evidence of his complicity in the president's assassination. So what
53:30
do you think about that double dealing, backstabbing son of a bitch there.
53:36
Well, I mean, there's been long rumored that trafficante, who was very
53:44
much involved in the assassination plots, wasn't actually trying to assassinate him. Well,
53:52
I think we went over aj Weberman interviewed Lauren Hall. Okay, and
54:00
I've heard the audio. He says, there's only two of us left,
54:04
and know what happened? That's me and Santo's traffic conte And I ain't saying
54:07
shit. And that's exactly what Lauren Hall said. Again, a guy that
54:14
had a seven point thirty five millimeter rifle that he gave to his son tone
54:16
to put it away, forget about it. You'll know why, yep.
54:21
And you have to keep in mind the quote country club. And I don't
54:31
know this for sure, but such Jelle. He was in in Cuba,
54:38
right, and did he actually plan or choose to stay there longer than he
54:45
needed to to avoid certain legal issues? And the United States did he make
54:57
a deal with Cashtro to uh get out and give him information? I mean
55:06
Cashtro had more moles in the Cuban exile Force force groups than a lot of
55:17
people realized. He knew what was coming, He knew the Bay of Pigs
55:22
was coming. He knew a lot of things. So it does not it
55:31
would not surprise me to have traffic CONTI playing both sides, no, because
55:38
that's what mafia figures do. Yeah, they have this information this early in
55:44
the game, folks, He's got other information before a lot of other people
55:49
do too, So check this out. So in his book Firsthandalogy, he
55:53
says, on September the twenty fifth, nineteen sixty four, that was when
55:58
the Warrant Commission reports was delivered to the FBI, it would be without any
56:02
questionable information regarding Cuban exiles, the Mafia or the CIA. Hoover was pleased,
56:08
Helm was relieved, Coally upset the Castro had not been blamed. Rolando,
56:15
Kiki Masfur and the Mafia dons delighted, and a host of other US
56:19
citizens, such as myself puzzled. This was a condition that would not,
56:22
however, last much longer for me. Now, what's interesting too is Rolando
56:30
Kiki Maskfir was also hanging out with a lot of these guys down there,
56:35
like Lauren hall In and around Miami with those folks as well, he says.
56:46
Seventeen days after Hoover received the WARR Commission report on October twelfth, nineteen
56:53
sixty four, the murder of Mary Mary Meyer, former wife of Richard Hilms
57:04
number two man Cordmyer and James Angleton's deputy on the tow path of c and
57:08
oak Now and Georgetown, would confirm my revelations. Mary Meyer, aside from
57:14
being a good friend of Angleton and Bobby Kennedy, had been the favorite mistress
57:19
of John F. Kennedy. Unfortunately for Angleton, Mary was also the sister
57:23
of Tony Bradley, the wife of Washington Post editor Ben Bradley. According to
57:30
Tony, the friendship between Mary and Ben c six months prior to her murder.
57:34
It was due to an article Bradley had published in the Newsweek magazine alluding
57:37
to her affair with the president after her murder, Bradley claimed that he discovered
57:42
Angleton breaking into Mary's home with a picklock in an attempt to find her personal
57:46
diary. Tony Bradley, now divorced from Ben's, says she found the diary
57:51
among Mary's personal papers and turned it over to Angleton. Angleton maintained that he
57:57
buried it or burned it along with other personal correspondence of the dead woman,
58:01
and Angleton would be forced into retirement in late seventy four as a result of
58:06
his involvement in the CIA's illegal Operation Chaos, a secret domestic spy program that
58:10
had been greatly enlarged under the Nixon administration. So he goes on and he
58:16
meets with his guy Digs, Marshall Diggs, who had introduced him to Tracy
58:21
Barnes, And this was in the mid seventies, and he says, Diggs
58:27
looked much older than I remembered him. What we discussed during the course of
58:30
the next hour also aged me. After the waiter had taken our order and
58:34
served our drinks, he discreetly retired. Then Digs, without any preamble,
58:38
informed me there could be a possible attempt on my life. My attention was
58:43
immediate, focused and complete. There is a very prominent lady here in Washington
58:47
who knows too much about the company, its Cuban operations, and more specifically,
58:52
about the President's assassination. Cautiously, I remarked, so what my friend
58:59
claims to know, frankly mean a lot of trouble for Coldy's people, myself,
59:01
the former vice president, and especially you. If you remember, the
59:06
president was killed shortly after Robert closed down your counterfeiting operation, I said,
59:10
I remember. But Cuban involvement. We all thought that was a dead issue.
59:15
Seriously, we'd never heard anything about a possibility from the Warring Commission.
59:19
Dick said, forget that, shaking his hand at me impatiently, and listen
59:22
carefully. The Commission was suspicious, and had they been allowed to pursue certain
59:28
leads, well, it's probable you and I wouldn't be sitting here right now.
59:34
Damn it, Marshall, if you're trying to frighten me, you are.
59:37
It's over, and not one mention of the Cubans, any Cubans,
59:39
or the CIA. There isn't a hint of anything other than that. Oswald
59:44
got up one morning and decided he didn't like the president. I wish his
59:47
brother thought that. Dick said, you mean RFK, yes, RFK now
59:52
damnit listen, as I said, there's a certain lady in town who has
59:57
an inside tracked to Langley and most importantly to Bobby. Unfortunately, an intimate
1:00:00
friend of mine is one of her best friends. So they're talking about Mary
1:00:06
Meyer again. Now, Mary Meyer divorced Cordmyer in nineteen fifty six. Then
1:00:10
after Kennedy was elected, she started spending nights in the White House. Well,
1:00:17
so to get to the point, they're going through this mafia connection,
1:00:22
YadA, YadA, YadA, And that's the whole point. I don't know
1:00:25
where he is and don't want to know. He's been told he's going to
1:00:30
lose his appeal, so he's preparing to jump bail and disappear. And they're
1:00:35
talking about Mario Coley there because Lelatier de Valier. As you might remember,
1:00:40
Joe was found dead the same day as David Ferry in nineteen sixty seven.
1:00:46
Yep. So all these names and all these players kind of start to tie
1:00:52
in together, and you start making these random connections, and you know,
1:01:00
mm hmm. Certainly people like Lauren Hall fit the bill as you know,
1:01:07
Cuban freedom fighters, mercenaries. Yeah, and that's who he says these weapons
1:01:14
were handed over to, you know. And there's the whole suspicious thing about
1:01:19
David Ferry heading to heading to uh Texas, you know, the day of
1:01:23
the day of the assassination a Galveston the ice skating rink, Yeah, to
1:01:30
go ice skating with his buddies for some reason, you know. And that's
1:01:36
allegedly who had the rifles and the And I was reading in there too about
1:01:43
these communication devices, these short short range communication devices. Who said they were
1:01:50
operated off of like a four a four D pack of batteries that would fitting
1:01:54
somebody's back pocket. They had to have very long tennis what she said,
1:02:00
could be ran down the inside of a pant leg to kind of conceal things.
1:02:08
And they would only work within fifty to one hundred feet of each other
1:02:15
in order not to be detected, you know, not to come up on
1:02:20
the h the wave range of other people who might just happen to be listening
1:02:24
on certain frequencies. But very crazy stuff. And like I said, I'd
1:02:30
highly recommend people check out the book see what he has to say. And
1:02:36
you know, It's just very interesting that all of this just comes out and
1:02:40
you start hearing things about these seven point three five millimeter kircanoe rifles and guess
1:02:45
who just happens to have one. It gives to his steps done to put
1:02:51
away and say, hey, put this away and forget about it. One
1:02:54
day you'll know. Thank you, Scott, you are the yes, thank
1:03:04
you. Now it's a third drink, and you know it's going back to
1:03:14
the Guatemalaku. All these characters were working together and they were successful in PB's
1:03:21
success appropriately named, by the way, and you know these relationships could have
1:03:31
developed over you know, almost a decade. Right two possibly either be plotters
1:03:44
or foreign knowledge. Of course we're not saying anyone did, but they're definitely
1:03:52
candidates for seethy. What do we got in the comments here? I'm reading
1:04:05
President was taken out due to LSD with Mary Meyer. Interesting. Oh yes,
1:04:15
oh by the way, I oh okay. Can I go back to
1:04:19
your quick kids comment of how you just want to go out tripping balls?
1:04:27
Yes, yes, I love that idea. I think that would be the
1:04:33
perfect way to go into the next dimension, right, I mean, is
1:04:40
right a better way? I don't think so. I don't think so either.
1:04:45
I mean, look, did you ask for at that point? All
1:04:48
right? Like Doug said, you know, you know, a hot twenty
1:04:53
year old woman. But you know, with enough, with enough acid,
1:04:58
you know, you could pretend that that was happening, all right, so
1:05:01
it really wouldn't need to happen, and then it just float on. That's
1:05:04
what that's all with the modest mouse. We all float on. Yeah,
1:05:10
yeah, all right, Well, uh, I guess we should address the
1:05:25
common urture more and then maybe wrap it up if we have any if we
1:05:28
don't have anything else, And I'm gonna put it out there too again,
1:05:30
Philippe, I'm gonna I'm gonna message you soon and see if you want to
1:05:34
come back on and talk about some rifles. Some rifles and of course your
1:05:40
father and I think there will be an awesome show this time. We least
1:05:43
got off the show and maybe we can actually have a conversation, yeah,
1:05:47
about some things that would be awesome. But yeah, oh no, definitely
1:05:55
not. Jack Valente on the grass he knows Scott, no, no,
1:05:59
no, no, no, nay, negatory. Well, we hope you
1:06:12
learned a little something about Tracy Barnes, about Robert Morrow, about the Carcanos,
1:06:21
a little bit more context on Lauren Hall, one of our favorite suspects.
1:06:29
And we thank everyone that has joined us tonight over thirty at one point,
1:06:39
and we are very appreciative of all the support. And I'll let you
1:06:46
close it out the Triple B. The Triple B. Let me play our
1:06:53
after music that Roger was so kind to put together for us, and so
1:07:00
Little Diddy to talk our way out of this thing. Joe catch us next
1:07:08
week. I put him in the credits as our music producer. Beautiful.
1:07:12
Yeah, he deserves it. Yes, thank you, rodre yep. So
1:07:16
thanks again everyone for hanging out. Thank you again for the super chats and
1:07:19
superstickers. You guys rock. We love you. Colleen. Uh, eat
1:07:26
soft foods, mashed potatoes and ice cream. Heals some things up, get
1:07:30
the new ones put in you'd be good to good. Yeah, go and
1:07:32
some more night Truss. Yeah, and I'll check him too. Where an
1:07:36
Oregon this papass guy is. Maybe you're close to him, maybe you're not.
1:07:40
I don't know. Hopefully you can go over and check him out.
1:07:45
And Uh, that'd be kind of cool to talk to him and interview him
1:07:49
and get him. He seems real, really receptive. He seems really wants
1:07:55
to talk about this stuff. So maybe we can bring off the speed on
1:07:59
all this other information with these seven point three five millimeter carcanos, and what
1:08:04
what Robert Morrow was talking about and comes and come and tell what you found.
1:08:12
That's right, Philip said, No, oh, he was just talking
1:08:21
about Rick Robertson standing on the corner. Yeah, No, that was not
1:08:27
That was not Jerry Hemming standing on the Houston Street. There, No,
1:08:31
No, that guy was a dork. Himan was a bad ass back then.
1:08:35
Uh he was, you know, a horrible, horribly square flat top
1:08:41
whoever that guy was standing on Houston Street. But yes, was he six
1:08:47
uh something like that six six six seven know what I'm saying. I don't
1:08:56
know. He was standing like head and shoulders above everybody everybody else. Okay,
1:09:00
well, you know Tracy Barnes was also, as we consistently talk past
1:09:09
our outro music, maybe we should ship hold on. Let me loop it,
1:09:15
yeah, loop looping it, loop it loopis Hey, Paul, you're
1:09:19
late, Bud. Maybe you know there's the the allegation that Tracy Barnes was
1:09:30
in Dealey as well, kind of like to rip Robinson Robinson thing. So
1:09:35
that's interesting as well. Hey he might wait, why do you think he
1:09:44
wrecked it? Why do you think he wrecked in No but Alpha sixty six,
1:09:49
I will be riding a scooter in the Dealey Plaza and the hotel area
1:09:58
of his Lorenzo. I will conquer the scooter for the whole Lancer smoking section
1:10:05
to see. We're gonna have a scooter race in Dallas this year, yes,
1:10:11
and we're allowed to kick each other. Yes, So it's gonna be
1:10:15
brutal. That's all right, Paul. You can check out that we played
1:10:18
my friend here in a hot minute. Once again, thank you everyone for
1:10:23
hanging out with us. We had a blast. Hopefully you learned something I
1:10:26
know we did for sure. Until next week, folks, peace and chicken
1:10:38
Greece and have some keiche and peace. H keiche goode