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Did Honduras and El Salvador Really Go to War over Soccer? · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Uh. Today's episode maybe of
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  Speaker 1: a special interest to our one and only super producer,
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  Speaker 1: Mr Max Williams, who is, by far out of the
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  Speaker 1: three of us, the biggest sports fan I'm Ben, Noel.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Would you agree that max Is is probably leading the
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: charge when it comes to sports? Well, yeah, Max is
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  Speaker 1: what you might call a real sport head, and you're
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: looking quite as sporting today to Ben, there you what
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  Speaker 1: you might call a bit of a sport head going
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: on with that dapper ball cap situation. Oh, thank you, yes, yes,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: this is uh, this is just one of those hats
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: I ended up with. It's kind of like that time.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: No you remember when I just all of a sudden
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: had an ancient Steeler's hat and I just decided to
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: wear that on our road rally documentary. Um, that was
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: that was cool. But we learned firsthand people in Pennsylvania
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  Speaker 1: have feelings about the Steelers. Yeah, they have Steeler feelings
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  Speaker 1: hashtag stealer feelings. Ben. Today's episode surrounds a part of
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  Speaker 1: the country that, if I'm not mistaken. You've spent a
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  Speaker 1: little bit of time, man. Uh. Yet today is uh.
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  Speaker 1: Today does take us to Central America, and as you know,
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  Speaker 1: I lived for a time in Guatemala. This episode takes
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  Speaker 1: us to the countries of Honduras and El Salvador. Now,
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  Speaker 1: these countries themselves are not the biggest countries in the world.
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  Speaker 1: El Salvador is about the size of Wales, for instance. Uh.
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  Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty nine, it had a population of just
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  Speaker 1: around three million people, and especially in the sixties, inequality,
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  Speaker 1: social inequality was pretty severe, and so a small group
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  Speaker 1: of people controlled, you know, most of the land, most
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  Speaker 1: of the companies, and so on. We're doing myth busting
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  Speaker 1: today without I guess we should give the log line first.
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  Speaker 1: Here's the idea, here's the claim. In nineteen sixty nine,
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  Speaker 1: El Salvador and Honduras, these relatively small but beautiful countries,
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  Speaker 1: got in a war for four days, something called the
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  Speaker 1: Football War. Yeah, maybe not a full fledged out and
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  Speaker 1: out war, definitely a conflict, to be sure. But the
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  Speaker 1: question is did this micro war get started as a
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  Speaker 1: result of sports differences? Yeah? And that's so No, that's
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  Speaker 1: what we have to establish because if you are not
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  Speaker 1: familiar with this part of the world that can sound there.
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  Speaker 1: I say it ridiculous to say that people might get
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  Speaker 1: in conflicts over football or what we in the US
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  Speaker 1: called soccer. I mean here, the worst you're gonna get
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  Speaker 1: is maybe people setting some cars on fire, you know,
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  Speaker 1: looting some targets or whatever to get their frustrations out
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  Speaker 1: for their team. Uh, not prevailing in a in a
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  Speaker 1: big game. Uh. You're gonna hear me using terms like
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  Speaker 1: team and big game because I want to sound like
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  Speaker 1: I'm part of the club, even though I'm definitely not.
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  Speaker 1: I think that will become apparent. Ben. I know you're
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  Speaker 1: not exactly the biggest sport head in the world, but
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  Speaker 1: you are an expert in international affairs. So I think
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  Speaker 1: between myself, you and Max, we we kind of make
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  Speaker 1: one whole person here. Yeah, we've got the max not
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  Speaker 1: of approval because Max you already you already know where
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  Speaker 1: we're going with part of this. Soccer fans especially can
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  Speaker 1: have a reputation. Football matters to people in a very big, deep,
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  Speaker 1: abiding way across the world. Right, It's it's serious, serious
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  Speaker 1: stuff and just like you said, no, this can lead
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  Speaker 1: to some acts of violence. So here's what happens. We
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  Speaker 1: said that El Salvador at this time in nineteen sixty
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  Speaker 1: nine kind of small population of three million. Most of
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  Speaker 1: the country is controlled by this small group of elites.
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  Speaker 1: Would you call those landed gentry perhaps exactly? Yes, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: just so. And Honduras also just as a small number
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  Speaker 1: of people controlling it socially. But Honduras is five times
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  Speaker 1: the size of El Salvador, but it only has a
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  Speaker 1: population of two point three million, So it's more land,
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  Speaker 1: fewer people. And this means that if you live in
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  Speaker 1: El Salvador, right and you want to have more farmland,
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  Speaker 1: you're gonna move to Honduras. There's just more space there.
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  Speaker 1: Uh So these people from El Salvador are moving to
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  Speaker 1: Honduras in droves, specifically to work for US fruit companies,
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  Speaker 1: which are kind of supervillains in Latin America. Absolutely, we
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  Speaker 1: know other stories that have revolved around, say, what is
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  Speaker 1: it the Chiquita banana company. They essentially were responsible for
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  Speaker 1: qu in Guatemala. Yes, in and uh also but through
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  Speaker 1: companies also got up to some dirt in Hawaii. Um,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: we have a pretty great stuff they don't want you
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: to know episode about the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: We can say it's great because we are actually not
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: on that episode. Our our friends of the show, Dana
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Schwartz and super producer Alexis good name dot Holiday Jackson
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  Speaker 1: actually did that. They gave us a break. Definitely put
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  Speaker 1: that one in your back pocket for after you finished
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  Speaker 1: listening to this episode. Um, here's the thing, this conflict
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  Speaker 1: between you mentioned that the you know, the the land
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  Speaker 1: mass um disparity I guess between the two and the
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  Speaker 1: fact that a lot of folks were moving from El
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  Speaker 1: Salvador to Honduras. Honduran President Oswaldo Lopez Arellano didn't really
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  Speaker 1: care for this um, this interloping, let's call it, and
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  Speaker 1: he started to actually deport thousands of Salvadoran's back to
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  Speaker 1: their home country. Why was that, Ben, Well, it's because
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  Speaker 1: there was a there was a political tension going on.
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  Speaker 1: The ruling class of El Salvador had been pretty much
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  Speaker 1: on board with people leaving the country because with fewer
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  Speaker 1: people in the country, there were also fewer demands for
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  Speaker 1: more quality. Right, but if you're in Honduras, imagine you
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  Speaker 1: were a person living in Honduras and you are not
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  Speaker 1: one of the ruling elites. You are fighting for your
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  Speaker 1: own land rights, you are fighting for more access to opportunity,
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  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you're flooded with immigrants. This
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  Speaker 1: just makes your resentment grow. So the Honduran government at
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  Speaker 1: the time, under President Ariano, as you said, the the
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  Speaker 1: government at the time says, Okay, we're gonna try to
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  Speaker 1: make things cool with the lower classes. Uh. And the
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  Speaker 1: way we're gonna do it is we're gonna pass this
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  Speaker 1: law about land reform. But the land reform law does
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  Speaker 1: not apply to those elites. It does not apply to
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  Speaker 1: the US fruit companies. It focuses on the land settled
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  Speaker 1: by those folks from El Salvador. Because essentially, these Salvadorans
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  Speaker 1: are coming in and staking their claim on Honduran land,
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  Speaker 1: and this is no longer sitting well with the government
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  Speaker 1: and the citizens of Honduras. They're basically saying, hey, get
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  Speaker 1: off my law. This is for us, not for you. Right. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's pretty on base. I would say. We know that
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  Speaker 1: by late nineteen sixty nine, the number of Salvadorans living
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  Speaker 1: in Honduras had actually ballooned up to three hundred and
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  Speaker 1: fifty thousands. You can read an excellent BBC article about
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  Speaker 1: this that relates relates the broad strokes of the story.
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  Speaker 1: It's by Toby Luckhurst. It's called Honduras versus El Salvador,
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  Speaker 1: the football match that kicked off the war. A little
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  Speaker 1: bit of spoiler in the title there, but not for long. Well,
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  Speaker 1: we'll get to this point. So no, like you said, tensions,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and the Honduran government is sort of selling
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  Speaker 1: the people a false bill of goods because they're they're
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  Speaker 1: focusing on these migrants, but they're not focusing on the
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  Speaker 1: problems in Honduras that we're existing far before mass immigration. Instead,
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  Speaker 1: we see formation of political committees, organizations, things that would
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  Speaker 1: pret hacked the interest of the ruling elite in Honduras.
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  Speaker 1: The folks who own most of the land forms something
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  Speaker 1: called the National Federation of Farmers and Livestock Farmers of Honduras.
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  Speaker 1: Sounds nice, Yeah, next you name. The whole goal is
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  Speaker 1: to just keep those people wealthy. By the way, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's sort of the status quo. Keep the rich rich
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  Speaker 1: and let them get richer and don't worry so much
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  Speaker 1: about the lower class. And if you do, it tends
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  Speaker 1: to be a bit of a ticking a box kind
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  Speaker 1: of um, you know, hollow gesture. Um. There are other
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  Speaker 1: things that we're leading to the simmering tension because there
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  Speaker 1: were some territories or some areas that were in dispute
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  Speaker 1: there and the Gulf of Fonseka, which is a little
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  Speaker 1: body of water on the Pacific coast. This is actually
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  Speaker 1: shared a number of islands rather in this gulf are
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  Speaker 1: shared between the two countries and Nicaragua, which is never
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  Speaker 1: the best situation because you know, ownership becomes part of
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  Speaker 1: the equation Asian pretty quickly, especially when people start you
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  Speaker 1: know settling and building lives for themselves and and uh
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  Speaker 1: in ways of generating income. So essentially, this war was
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  Speaker 1: the real the simmering tensions that would ultimately erupt, um
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  Speaker 1: were as a result of these land disputes and the
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  Speaker 1: you know finite availability of land. Yeah. Yeah, And when
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  Speaker 1: the Honduran president makes this decision to kick out these
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  Speaker 1: folks from El Salvador, he does so by taking the
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  Speaker 1: land that they have staked their claim to. And also
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  Speaker 1: he turned the population, the average Honduran against these El
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  Speaker 1: Salvadorian immigrants. Yeah. They were like, um, harassing them. There
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  Speaker 1: were pretty regular beatings and abuses, you know, physical altercations.
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  Speaker 1: Um these folks were not being treated very well, and
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  Speaker 1: then to boot they were deported back to El Salvador,
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  Speaker 1: where the president um Fidel Sanchez Hernandez and his government
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  Speaker 1: had a really hard time dealing with this influx of
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  Speaker 1: folks coming back to his country after they had kind of,
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  Speaker 1: you know, adapted to their being less folks there exactly.
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  Speaker 1: So now you have if you're this, if you're a
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  Speaker 1: person in this situation, now you have literally no place
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  Speaker 1: to go. Right, the place you lived has been taken
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  Speaker 1: by one government or the other. Right, Honduras is saying
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  Speaker 1: Honduras for Honduran's and the government of El Salvador is saying, ah, sorry,
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  Speaker 1: this is not to keep your seat warm situation. So
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  Speaker 1: to be very clear that there's a technical term for this,
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  Speaker 1: it sucks and this you can read this. You can
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  Speaker 1: read some more details about this in a book called
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  Speaker 1: The One hundred Hour War by Dan Haydorn, which covers
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  Speaker 1: covers the blow by blow of what happens here. So,
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  Speaker 1: in the midst of all this stuff happening and these
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  Speaker 1: people moving back and forth across the border trying to
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  Speaker 1: find a better life for themselves, there is a football match.
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  Speaker 1: There's a soccer game. And we've talked in the past
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  Speaker 1: about I can't remember which showed this was on. We've
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  Speaker 1: talked in the past about how I personally believe that
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  Speaker 1: sports are often a substitute for war in in some ways,
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  Speaker 1: and religion, or maybe not a substitute for religion, but
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  Speaker 1: they can take on the same kind of evangelism in
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  Speaker 1: some ways that religion has, where folks are so behind
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  Speaker 1: their team and they're the only team you know, in
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  Speaker 1: the world as far as they're concerning. Every other team
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  Speaker 1: is against them in the same way that folks, you know,
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  Speaker 1: kind of treat their particular God or their particular faith. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: and that's because people have such strong identification with their
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  Speaker 1: you know, their favorite sports teams, and in this part
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  Speaker 1: of the world, that kind of association is sort of
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  Speaker 1: times ten what you would encounter here in the US.
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  Speaker 1: Oh and for the record, folks, Atlanta does have a
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  Speaker 1: pretty great soccer team of its own. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if you guys have gone to the games, but even
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  Speaker 1: if you don't care for soccer or football, uh, it's
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  Speaker 1: it's it's great to go, it's great energy, it's cool
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  Speaker 1: to hang. It seems like a good time. I've not
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  Speaker 1: been yet, um, but I really wanted. They also do
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: this really cool thing with the local art community where
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  Speaker 1: every every game they have like a Man of the
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  Speaker 1: Game or something like that and a electric guitar that's
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  Speaker 1: painted by a local artist they choose for each one
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  Speaker 1: is presented to Man of the Match, that's what it's called,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: is presented to whoever the like m v P of
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: that particular game. Um, was awesome. And our buddy Nick Benson,
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  Speaker 1: excellent artist and good friend of the show, has done
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: one of those form Oh that's right he has. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: shout out to Nick. He is a good friend of ours.
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  Speaker 1: He also does all the art for Run the Jewels,
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  Speaker 1: which is weird to know someone. Well, we have weird jobs,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: so I guess his job is not that weird. And
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  Speaker 1: all the art for a really cool upcoming secret project
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: of another thing that we're involved in. Yes, more to
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: be revealed on that one. It's been so hard not
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: to talk about it, but all will be revealed in
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  Speaker 1: the meantime. As you can tell, fraught political tensions between
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  Speaker 1: Honduras and Al Salvador mean that people are looking for
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  Speaker 1: an outlet. Yeah, and these fraud political tensions are exacerbated
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  Speaker 1: by the media, um, which I'm not I don't know, Ben,
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  Speaker 1: you might be able to speak a little bit more
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  Speaker 1: about the relationship between the media and the government in
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  Speaker 1: Central America. But it strikes, you know, in the research
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  Speaker 1: for this, that maybe the government has a little bit
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  Speaker 1: more control over the media in these countries than maybe
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  Speaker 1: we see here. What do you think, um, at this time, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: the media is heavily controlled by the government, unless it's
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  Speaker 1: oppositional media. I would say, even more importantly, it's controlled
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  Speaker 1: by the people who own the outlets, right, they own
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  Speaker 1: the means of information dissemination. And there are those folks,
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  Speaker 1: by the way, are the same folks who own like
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  Speaker 1: the land, so they they have the tools to make
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  Speaker 1: this propaganda campaign to whip up the masses against each other,
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  Speaker 1: instead of asking why so few people control so much.
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  Speaker 1: That's that's the question that often gets dodged right before
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  Speaker 1: we sound too revolutionary about it. Anyway, everybody is pumped,
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  Speaker 1: they're so stoked about this soccer game, this football game,
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  Speaker 1: and these countries have similar cultures by the way, they
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  Speaker 1: speak the same language. Most people have the same or
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  Speaker 1: similar religious beliefs, and when they meet on the football
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  Speaker 1: field pitch. Excuse me, sorry, Banks. Everything I know about
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: soccer I learned from the wonderful television series um So
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: that at last, so I know that it's all about qualifying.
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  Speaker 1: That's the term they use, qualifying. And so you know,
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  Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy FIFA World Cup just a big deal.
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  Speaker 1: Apparently it's coming up that June. Uh and the teams
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  Speaker 1: of Honduras and El Salvador are in competition to qualify
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  Speaker 1: for the nineteen seventy FIFA World Cup. And this is
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  Speaker 1: a three game series. Um the first game, Honduras beats
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  Speaker 1: El Salvador in a one to zero victory, and then
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  Speaker 1: on June five, in a game played in San Salvador,
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  Speaker 1: El Salvador wins three nil. As they would say in
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: UK football, what a ludicrous display, they would say, an
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I T crowd, Which is a great episode. It's a
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: good way to just if you're in if you're in
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: the UK, just say what a ludicrous display, and then
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: you're like you can just kind of fake your way
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: through the rest of the conversation at the right uh So,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I do want to go back to setting the scene though,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: so really, for a lot of people, if you just
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: saw these teams meet. The people on those teams would
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: seem very similar. The only difference would appear to be
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  Speaker 1: their dress, right, their uniforms. Uh, they're wearing the colors
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  Speaker 1: of their national flags. So El Salvador is wearing blue
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  Speaker 1: with white trim. Honduras wears white trimmed with royal blue.
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  Speaker 1: So they're kind of in verses of each other, which
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I think is interesting. Yeah, it's interesting, right. And both
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: of these games that you mentioned, with the one oh
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: to Honduras and the three oh three Nils El Salvador,
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  Speaker 1: both of these where games that occurred like amid near riots,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: things that were pretty much riots were happening. There were
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  Speaker 1: a lot of very vociferous, vehement displays of national pride,
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  Speaker 1: like picture people you know, uh screaming the anthem wave
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  Speaker 1: in the flag and then like throwing bottles and saying,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: you know, well, I dare someone from Honduras or El
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Salvador depending to come around here this, you know this
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Honduras for Honduran's kind of vibe. And we all know
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: the problem with Determined the UK's soccer hooligans, right, they
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: have a bit of a reputation that kind of behavior
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: has occurring here as well. And what you see is
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  Speaker 1: that thousands of soccer supporters, several thousand from El Salvador,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: had traveled seven hundred miles northwest for the final match.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: This is very much a ted Lasso moment, right, This
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: was the so the two teams are tied, and they
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: have this tiebreaker game, this third game, that's where everyone
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: is going. It's held in Mexico and the stadium is huge.
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  Speaker 1: You can fit like a hundred thousand people in there. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: and these folks from El Salvador, mostly from El Salvador,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: fill in the bottom sort of fifteen thousand seats of
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: the stadium. And then back home, people in El Salvador
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: are tuned into the radio on the edge of their seats.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: The world is watching and listening to see what happens,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: to see which country wins the game, because in a way, psychologically,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: that feels like they're winning the conflict over this immigration problem.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: That's right, and this was evident even back in El
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Salvador where Salvadoran's We're hanging out and having parties, dancing
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  Speaker 1: even next to their radios and celebrating with this early win.
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  Speaker 1: Um s I dot Com has a fabulous article that
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: kind of looks at this more through the sports angle. Um,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: written by Michael McKnight. Um. You can check that out
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  Speaker 1: Soccer War nothing more. Really great title there, Um, So dude,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: check that one out too for a little more of
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: the sports angle. And at the same time, the armies
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: of both of these nations, which are not that far
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  Speaker 1: apart from one another, after all, right next to each other, um,
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  Speaker 1: are lining the borders, carrying weapons and wearing identical uniforms.
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  Speaker 1: Why is that? Why do they have the same uniforms? Ben,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Because again it's very similar. That's the that's the strange.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: That's one of the strange parts of this story. These
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: are two different nations, to be clear, but culturally, in
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: many many ways, these populations are similar. And I was
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: thinking a bit of a way for us to kind
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: of contextualize what happens next. So we're we're in June,
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  Speaker 1: right their neck and neck, their neck and neck. In
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: terms of qualifying, there is a third and final qualifying
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  Speaker 1: match that is to take place in Mexico City. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: and on the day of the match, El Salvador, the
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  Speaker 1: government of El Salvador severs all diplomatic ties with Honduras.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: This is so here here's my comparison. So this is
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: like um for baseball fans. I'm gonna lean on you
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: a bit for this mix. Baseball fans. Um, you're familiar
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: with like the World Series, right, and there are what
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: what's the most popular Canadian baseball team in your mind, Max,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's probably a hockey team. Well, the Toronto
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Blue Jays that the last standing one off the Montreal
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: exposed Okay, didn't exist in the Toronto Blue Okay. So
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: imagine there is a game between like, let's just say,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: the Yankees and the Blue Jays, and on the eve
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: of that game, Canada severs all diplomatic ties with the US.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: That sounds a little weird, right, but that's what happens.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: A little weird, easy to interpret as a political flex
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: h football adjacent yes, yeah, And the government said, we're
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: not really doing this because of the football game. We're
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: doing this because Honduras has not taken any action to
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: punish all those people who are committing crimes against Salvadoran immigrants,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: all those beatings, all of those abuses that we talked about.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: They are claiming that this act was as a direct
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: result of the government of Honduras not doing anything about
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: those actions. And apparently this treatment accelerated as the games
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: went on, and the problem got so bad that the
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: interior ministers said around twelve thousand Salvadorans had left Honduras
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: after that second soccer match because of the wild persecution
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: that's occurring. UH. The day after the game, you will
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: see a US news agency called u p I. UH.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: They published a story with the headline soccer wall one
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: by El Salvador three to two. That's right, it's a
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: legacy UM media outlet United Press International. Don't really hear
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: that one thrown around quite as much anymore, UM, but
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: they are still around. But you got to imagine, ben,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, if the Hondurans were messing with the Salvadorans
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: before this football adjacent tension erupted, I can imagine that
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: it really would have been exacerbated by this. Yeah, and
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: there's a question here about how much of a role
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: the media had to play in this. According to that
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: up I report, at the third game, there were almost
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: two thousand Mexican police who were there to stop the
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: violence as Salvadorans are chanting murderers, murderers from the stands,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: and so the world media started to think this was
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: a war that was due to soccer. But a lot
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: of experts looking back say, this war would have happened
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: or this conflict would have happened regardless of the game.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: It just maybe spent things along well. And it didn't
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: help much that U p I coined the soccer war
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: in their headlines. They literally referred to it as soccer
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: War one by El Salvador three to two. Uh So
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: that was the outcome of that game there in Mexico City.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: People lost their minds. These borders skirmishes got worse and worse,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: like you said, in the days following that upset, and
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: as result, the border between El Salvador and Honduras was closed,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: with these skirmish is taking place more and more frequently. Yeah,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: they had also seen this in the cards early on.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: They felt they felt a growing tension in the wind.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: As a result, both governments have been actively increasing their
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: military might for a while. At the time, there was
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: a U S arms embargoes, so they couldn't buy all
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: the toys they wanted, but they did find other ways
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: of getting hardware, and a lot of it. Like they
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: were purchasing old World War two stuff, right, like vintage
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: fighter planes like F for U Corsairs, P fifty one
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Mustangs and all of that. Where do they get these
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: marvelous toys or whatever it was that the joker said
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: in Batman um from private individuals who had these in
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: their collection, which I guess is a thing. Um. By
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: the way, great reporting on this from thought code dot com.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Kennedy Hickman wrote a really great p for them called
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Latin America the Football War also highly recommend giving that
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: one a full read. So, like we said, things are escalating.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Uh and early in the morning on July four, the
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: air force of El Salvador started doing strikes against Honduras,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: hitting these targets. And this is when things kind of
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: get past the point of no return border skirmishes. Okay,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: maybe things can settle down a little bit. Once you
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: start actively, you know, doing air attacks, air strikes on
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: a neighboring country, it's a little tough to roll that back. Yeah, exactly.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: The troops are also on the move. They're going after
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: some islands that are owned by Honduras, and they get
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: into conflicts with the Army of Honduras. But the Army
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: of Honduras is smaller, and the salve door In troops
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: as a result, are able to advance pretty steadily. On
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: the flip side, the Salvadoran air force got absolutely waxed
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: by the Honduran air force. So think of it like
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: El Salvador is starting to control the land and Honduras
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: is starting to control the sky. This is where we
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: introduce a Polish journalist. I'd like to apologize for pronunciation,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Justine Rezard Kapusynski. I think that's close. Yeah, excellent job. Yeah,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: thank you man. So this is one of the reasons
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: is important. This journalist is one of the few foreign
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: correspondence who is on the ground when this conflict begins.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: That's right. And according to some of the initial reports
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: that he filed, he described the conflict in the Honduran capital,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: which by the way, is one of my favorite named
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: capitals in the whole world, to goose Galpa. It is
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: fun to say he reported the conflict there using the
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: country's only teleprinter machine. And this is after President Lopez
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Ariano communicated with this ambassador in the United States about
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the invasion. Yeah, and he would go on to write
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: a book called The Soccer War which is kind of
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: a recollection of his life and times during that conflict.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: And in this book, if you read it, you'll see weird,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: interesting references. You get a real snapshot of the tension
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: and the effectiveness of the propaganda that was being spread.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: He would see graffiti that says, nobody beats Honduras and
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: we shall avenge three nil. It's interesting to wonder what
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: ted Lasso would have made of this. Oh, he would
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: have said some pithy you know, aphorism of some kind.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Everyone would have shaken hands and gone home, you know,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: you know, back in back in the States. Uh, we'd
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: like to say it takes a little shake and to
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: make milk shake. It's true. It's true, and I believe um.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: So it's it's understandable why this football war soccer war
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: narrative was so easily fed. I mean, you mentioned, you know,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: the graffiti, you know, the whole we shall avenge a
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: narrative specifically referencing the soccer game. So it's definitely it's
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: kind of a chicken or egg question. I mean, I
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: kind of think that the egg lies with the media.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: But also, I mean, these tensions were real, separate from
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: the soccer match. And then the soccer match just kind
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: of added fuel to those already simmering fires of resentment.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: So Honduran aircraft hit back and hit El Salvador oil facilities,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: UM and other depots, which caused some real problems in
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: the supply chain and getting you know, much needed fuel
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: to the front lines. So their network of infrastructure was
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: really really badly UM affect, and the Salvadorian offensive started
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: to kind of slow UM and eventually they couldn't go
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: on right. Yeah, they got bogged down. And during this time,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: on July fift the o AS Organization of American States,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: they get everybody together, they convene in emergency session and
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: they agree El Salvador needs to withdraw from Honduras. The
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: government of El Salvador there in the capital soun Salvador
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Uh to say, we're not going to do this. We're
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: not getting out, we're not stopping the beef, We're not
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: squashing the beef or squashing the soccer ball here unless
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: you can promise that there will be reparations paid to
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: all the Salvadorans who were displaced, and additionally, any of
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: our folks who are living in Honduras, they can't be
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: harmed and it's true. I mean, the the actions taken
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: against sell the Doorans at this time it was pretty
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: pretty gruesome. So the o A s says, Okay, let's
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: work through this, and they are able to just three
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: days later officially arrange a ceasefire on July eighth, and
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: on July the ceasefire actually goes into place. Yeah, I
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: was just thinking about this kind of hardback the episode
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: we just did. But if you think about this, you
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: know this nineteen seventy, nineteen sixty nine. This is this
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: is a straight like land grab. That's exactly what you know.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of other things, but it's
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: basically about land. This is against the Kelly brand packed,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: isn't it. I think it is. I think there is
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: basis for you know, outside organizations a being like, hey,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: you guys can't cause this war because you could argue
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: this war is about, you know, the resentments all that,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: but that all springs from the fact that El Salvador
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't have enough land for their people. I mean, the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: reason why is debatable, but but it also shows how
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: pacts like that are ultimately kind of toothless and difficult
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: to enforce because it's hard to pinpoint, or it's very
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: easy to dance around what the actual root cause of
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: the war is, you know what I mean, Like you
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: can just kind of say, oh, no, it's it's about
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: this other thing. It's land grab Why what's that? And
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: this is a situation where sanctions actually seemed to do
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: some good because initially the government val Salvador refused to
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: leave um. Only when threatened with sanctions from the OAS
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: did they decide to do something and and actually withdraw.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: And when that ceasefire went into effect, thousands of people
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: were already dead, at least three thousand UM, most of
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: whom were Hunduran nationals and civilians. They weren't you know,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: they weren't soldiers, these folks, and many many thousands more
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: were this place, they had to evacuate where they were
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: living due to the fighting or the encroachment of the
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Salvadoran army. Eventually, like you said, international pressure, the threat
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: of sanctions, these factors caused El Salvador to withdraw its
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: forces from Honduras by August. And if we look at
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: the aftermath, we see that thousands of people were killed
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: on both sides, the Salvador and military did pretty well,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: but the conflict was a lose lose situation for both countries.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: As a result of the fighting, around a hundred thirty
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: thousand Salvador and immigrants are trying to get back home
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: to El Salvador and they arrive in an already overpopulated country.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Like you said, no, Um, and like you said, Max,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: it's a kind of a fight for land. And because
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: they added so many more people to the population, this
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: destabilized the economy. Like things go horribly wrong. That's the takeaway.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: The went horribly wrong, and a lot of people remains
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: convinced this was about a soccer game for a long time. Yeah.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: That BBC piece that you mentioned, Um has some really
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: illuminating quotes from Dr mo Hume, excellent name, the lecturer
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: at the University of Glasgow, and she referred to the
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: domestic problems back in El Salvador that caused the war
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: in the first place, again citing that small land owning
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: gentry and the large number of farmers who had been
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: dispossessed of their land, and said that this is something
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: that would have repercussions, you know, well into the future
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: for maybe decades. UM. The larger socioeconomic issues are really
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the whole deal here, and the football aspect was just
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: kind of like the powder keg moment. But to your point,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: and to the point of many other experts, it didn't
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: even need that particular powder keg. It just maid for
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: an interesting frame story, you know, for the press exactly.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: And Professor Hume also makes an excellent point when she
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: says this powder keg of tension and inequality that led
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: to the football war would ultimately cause the civil War
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: in El Salvador just a decade later, nineteen seventy nine.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: All the way up to and during that war, and
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: estimated seventy thousand people lost their lives. So this is
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: a very serious thing. It's so interesting. I mean, you
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: think of the idea of a civil war, and in
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: the United States, obviously seems like something of the distant past.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: But no civil wars continue across the world, uh, to
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: this day. And to this day there's still summering resentment
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: between El Salvador and Honduras, and there are continuously border
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: disputes between the two nations. Yes, and uh, you know,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: I love the point you're making about civil wars. A
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: lot of people aren't aware that The Guatemalan Civil War
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: went from nineteen sixty to nineteen nine six, so it
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: was still very recent when I lived there. This gives
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: us an instructive look at how war is sold to
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: people right and about how easy it can be to
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: obscucate the actual causes of a conflict. Uh. There is
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: a guy we want to shout out. He is the
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: man who scored the winning goal for El Salvador. His
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: name Mauricio Rodriguez Peopo to his friends, and Max with
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: the facts came through and verified that Mr Rodriguez is alive.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: He is now seventy six, and he pretty much seems
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: to agree with the three of us when he says,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: what I am sure of is that the authorities and
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: politicians made use of our sports victory to glorify El
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Salvador's image. I like the phrase sports victory. Why I do?
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: It sounds like it sounds like a translation from something
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: in an Ikea sty It does a little bit, but
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: I think it it hits the mark. Um and and
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: and like you said, I mean, Mauricio Peopo Rerodriguez really
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: sums the whole thing up beautifully, saying that for me,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: that goal will always be a source of sporting pride,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: despite the spin the government put on it. Spin is
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: that thing you do in soccer. Can you put some
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: spin on the ball? I imagine you can't. You gotta
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Bennett like Beckham be like, how do you think you
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: call it putting English on it? What have you heard
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: that phrase? That's from Billiards right. It's when you hit
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: it on the top or the bottom, I believe, and
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: it gives that you can do a backspin. There's different
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: types of English. But I'm gonna yeah, I think you definitely,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna make my own sport. I think. I think
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: that's the time has come. I think so we need
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: a new sport, Ben, we don't have enough. Do you
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: want help? Ben? Like? So it actually, like you know,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: works well and stuff. Yeah, you know what, it's fired,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Max shots fired. That just taught me how to play
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: some dice games. So I'll follow. Oh yeah, just Max.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Max is an expert on game theory, which is a
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: really important aspect of designing any sort of game, whether
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: it be a NERD related or or sport related. And
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: you know, despite all of this fallout and all of
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: this Association football war and all of that stuff soccer war.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Rodriguez said that the El Salvador team had immense respect
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: for their Honduran counterparts. He had this to say on
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: the matter, and this is a quote from that BBC
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: piece that we've referenced. Neither from the Honduras players nor
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: from our side, were the games between enemies, but between
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: sports rivals. You know, that's awesome and I think that
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: is a good place for us to land the episode
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: today because you will hear that from a lot of athletes.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: They'll say, you know, actually, I I really like these
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: other people you know who are competing with against me
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: in the luge or what have you, because they're they're
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: kind of it's called the pitch, but not the louse. No,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about the sport of these you're kidding. Yeah,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Max is called and lose? Is it called the tube?
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: The slide? The ice? The ice slide? I think I
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: think it actually is slide. That makes sense because you slide,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Uh okay, it's like an ice and crusted water slide. Yeah, yeah,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: which you know every kid's dream, right. But here we
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: end the story, and this is one of those tales
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: that is illuminating, right, and it's important to remember this
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: in the modern day, because we do see a lot
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: of reporting that appears to determine the causes for a conflict, right,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and you always have to ask yourself what's going on?
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: You know, even today, if you look at the situation
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: between NATO and Russia, you'll see that Russian domestic media
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: has a very different spin on things compared to media
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: in Ukraine or media in Europe. So we all have
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: to work together to figure out what the truth is.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because we're getting around lunch time now,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: but I am so excited to go see in Atlanta
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: United game with you guys. The Mercedes Benz Stadium is
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: pretty swell. The first time I went there was abandoned.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: I went there to get vaccinated, But that place is huge.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Do you think Kanye West is still living in the
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: janitor's quarters. I hope so, I hope he is. He's
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: like the Phantom of the Opera. I thought he wasn't
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Kanye ay more. I thought he was just yet he's
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: always Kanye to me. I I refused to fall in
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: line with that. It's absurdain. Maybe it's a thing where
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: it's like, if you're this kind of a southern thing,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: but maybe it's the thing where it's your full name
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: if you're in trouble. So he's like yeah, unless he
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: tries to start a war over soccer, and then we
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: have to be like Kanye more like boo am I
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: right right, And so with that, thank you of course
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: for tuning in. One note about the region of Central America,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: the countries of Al Salvador and Honduras and all adjacent countries.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: They are beautiful, beautiful places. Visit if you get a chance,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: be safe and tell us of your adventures. We can't
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: wait to hear from you. Thanks as always to our
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: super producer, Mr Max Williams uh and now our go
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: to sports correspondent. And thanks of course to Alex Williams
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: who composed this slapping soundtrack Eat your heart Out yea.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Thanks to the Christopher aciotas he was, Jeff Code here
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: in spirit, Jonathan Strickland, the quizter surely he'll be darkening
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: our digital doorstep in the near future. And thanks to
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: you Ben for getting sport you with us today. Thanks
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: to you know, and I just I want to say,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: you know, if we were the Spice Girls, I don't
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: know where we go with this, It's pretty clear Max
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: would be Sporty Spice, right. I feel like Sporty Spice
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: is the most underrated. Spice Girl needs to give more love.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Let's do that. Let's honor her memory. I think she's
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: still alive, but you know that, maybe not in Spice
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Girl form. Through super producer Max Williams, we love you, buddy,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: See you next time. Flix. For more podcasts for my
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.