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The Baby Killer Conspiracy · Conspiracy! The Show

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Conspiracy The Show, the world's most trusted conspiracy
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: dairy podcast, with your hosts Adam Todd Brown and Olivia Hidar.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy the Show. I'm Adam Todd
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Brown and I'm Olivia Hidar and we are your hosts. Olivia.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: How's it going. Oh, it's going well.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: You know, I just watched a documentary about baby's dying.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: This is so feeling good. This is some heavy stuff.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: The title of this documentary, the baby killer conspiracy, that
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: we're covering on the week's episode, could not be more
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: ripped from the headlines esque. But it really doesn't pertain
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: to any like, it has nothing to do with abortion
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: or anything. No, I bet.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: I mean it's a tough one to google. I'll say
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: that I didn't love the act of googling it.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I bet it all worked out really well.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm like at a loss for what we're going
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: to talk about, and I shit you not, I'll just
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: run the word conspiracy through the search bar on some
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: streaming service and occasionally I'll strike gold. And I did that,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I think on Amazon this time. And I happened to
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: subscribe to Discovery Plus through Amazon and on Discovery Plus
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: is a two part documentary series called The Baby Killer Conspiracy.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: It's about the stories of three different women who were
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: all accused of killing their children and they all went
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: to prison for it. Some of them are in prison
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: for it, yes, and the thing is they probably did
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: not kill their kids.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this documentary made me cry twice, which is a
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: first for the show. I think it's it's rough, like
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: this is the kind of thing we would normally cover
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: on the Pretty Scary podcast because it is, yeah, kind
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: of a true crime thing. Like the foundation of true crime.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: I say it all the time.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: The bedrock of the true crime genre is shitty police work.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Like with how awful, inept corrupt cops, the true crime
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: genre would not exist. It is a celebration of shitty
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: police work.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's really all the proof of police abolition
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: and prison abolition that you need.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's that, But it's also a good reminder for
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: people who just shudder when they hear the word conspiracy
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: and like your mind automatically goes to like storming the
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: capitol and sure stuff like that, But this is a conspiracy.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: It is It is like any police cover up is
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: essentially a conspiracy. Sure, it's kind of.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: A roundabout it, because like the conspiracy is the rat
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: at the heart of almost every criminal justice system.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: In the world. Right, Well, I mean this is like
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: a physical conspiracy though, this is people working to gather
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: toward one end, but saying they're working toward another end.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: That's all a great conspiracy is. No, I'm not disagreeing.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: I'm definitely I'm not disagreeing with that it's a conspiracy.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: It's just that they're not conspiring together in the traditional
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: sense that you imagine, where the parties that are working
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: towards this common goal are doing so independently for the
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: most part, where they just have all arrived at this shitty,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: non scientific and evil, baseless conclusion that serves the criminal
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: justice system. But like it definitely, like you know, there's
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: shredding evidence, there's like a lot of classic like conspiracy
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: markers in this. It just happens to be that nobody
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: really conspires to get it right.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: It also, I guess, not loosely, but I guess kind
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: of loosely ties into something that I'm pretty shocked that
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: apparently we've never covered on this podcast, which is the
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Satanic panic because we really we did a pretty scary
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: episode about the Satanic Panic and this doesn't completely tie
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: into it the way. We're going to bring up another
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: documentary called The Syndrome later on. It plays a very
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: minor role in the story here, but that documentary is
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: about shaking baby syndrome, which, just to tease it a
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: little bit. As it turns out, if you're not familiar,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: shaken baby syndrome was an idea that was pushed by
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: the same group that pushed the Satanic Panic and like
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: ritual mass abuse, and they both ended in the same thing,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: which was innocent people going to prison for things they
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: didn't actually do. And in the case of shaking baby syndrome,
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: like we all know the Satanic Panic was nonsense now,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: but people are still pretty flabbergasted when they find out
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: shaking baby syndrome is kind of a myth.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Well, it's one that I think is gonna be tough
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: to totally stamp out because if you shake a baby,
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: it will die.
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  Speaker 2: That's the thing. There's no doubt that shaking an infant
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: violently is going to gravely injure that child. That's not
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: what anyone is getting at. When it was shaking baby syndrome.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: It's just that, I mean, we'll get into it more later,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: but the way shaken baby syndrome has been presented to
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: the public is that if these three symptoms are present,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: it's always shaken baby syndrome. It can be nothing else.
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  Speaker 4: Like.
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  Speaker 2: According to that line of thinking, even a fall cannot
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: cause the same kind of injuries that shake and baby
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  Speaker 2: syndrome can cause, which is insane. It's insane, and it's the.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: Same sort of woman hating logical fallacy that's at the
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: heart of the.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: SIDS thing that we're talking about today, right and it,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, is kind of at the heart of what's
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: happening with abortion right now. Absolutely, And so we'll talk
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: about the syndrome a little bit later, but we're covering
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: again a documentary called Baby Killer Conspiracy. The first woman
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: they bring up Kathleen Folbig. Yes, she had a troubled upbringing.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Her father murdered her mother for one thing. There's that. Yeah,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: that's gonna have an impact. That's gonna it's gonna leave
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: some scars. She married an older man named Craig when
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: she was just barely out of high school. Do it
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: fucking sucks? As a husband self. I can tell you
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Craig fucking sucks. Oh yeah, you wouldn't do what he does. No, no, Craig.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Craig should be in marriage prison for what. Yeah, in
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: this documentary. But their first child, Caleb, born in nineteen
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: eighty nine, died at nineteen days old, and his death
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: was attributed to SIDS or crib death caught death.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: The first child is the one where they discover that
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: he has some sort of loose trachia.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: I feel like they actually call like a doctor called
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: it floppy larynx.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly, that's what I was trying to think of.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's like floppy is the science word.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: For it, because that really popped out to me.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but like you.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: Know, that seems like a thing that could kill a baby,
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: you know, if not taken care of.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or if nothing else, it could render a baby
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: unconscious for a.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: Bit, yeah, or weaker than you might otherwise be.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: It's just yeah. The next child, Patrick, born about a
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: year later, at around the age of four months. Craig
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: is awakened by the sound of Kathleen screaming. I should
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: point out Patrick was about four months not Craig. He's
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: her husband. Right around the age of four months, Craig,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: here's Kathleen screaming. He runs into Patrick's room, sees her
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: standing over his crib and Patrick wasn't breathing. He was
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: rushed to the hospital and found to be suffering from
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: epilepsy and cortical blindness. But they never really figured out
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: what caused him to stop breathing right, and he lived
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: for another four months. He was having seizures that whole time,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: and he eventually is discovered dead in his crib by Kathleen.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: And he died from airway obstruction due to an epileptic
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: seizure was his cause of death, which again that's a
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: cause of death that's not child abuse like that. A
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: doctor looked at this child and said, this is how
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: he died. He died from a seizure. Important for later,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: very important. Next child, Sarah, was born in October nineteen
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: ninety two. At the age of ten months, she is
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: found dead in her crib. And around this time, another
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: woman goes on trial who is a legitimate killer. Her
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: name's Beverly Allett, and she was murdering kids during her
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: shift working at a hospital, like injecting them with insulin.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: I believe and not her children even No, I think
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: that's an important distinction as well, right, big difference. But yes,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: also convicted of having an awful haircut. Yeah, say yeah,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: she was a fucking character. What's important about that trial
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: is Roy Meadow. Roy Meadow should be I don't know.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Is he still alive?
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: I bet he's still Yeah, Let's shoot that fucker into space.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: How about that.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: He's going to get that guy the fuck out of here.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: He's the kind of person that's going to live to
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: be like one hundred and fourteen years old. Yes, exactly.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Roy Meadow kind of makes a name for himself during
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: the Beverly Allot trial, Like his testimony makes him like
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: a really early version of like a TV Like he's
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: not a TV guy, but he's like a celebrity witness. Yeah.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: It's a weird phenomenon. Like, if you need to send
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: a woman to prison for a crime she didn't commit,
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: you call royt Yeah. Yeah, And so he becomes very
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: important in this story. Later around this time, there's a
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: bunch of high profile cases involving either mothers killing their
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: own children or this Beverly Alot thing. And did we
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: mention this is all happening in Australia and the UK. Oh,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I don't think we mentioned in Australia. The Yeah, Kathy's
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: in Australia, yes, And I think Beverly Alt was in
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: the UK. Yeah. And Roy Meadow is a British doctor.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: He had also kind of made a name for himself
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: in the field of munchausen syndrome research, which which is
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: a name I spelled correctly on the first try, and
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: I was blown away. I was sure I was going
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: to batch it.
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  Speaker 3: But well, you're such a fan of the Terry Gilliam
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: film Baron munchaus Sure.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: And Eminem also you know I've heard him, of course
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: whine about that shit so much. Yeah, I mean he's
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: like the guy Ruy.
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  Speaker 3: Meadow is like the guy who basically he popularized the
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: idea of Munchausen's syndrome by proxy, which is what I
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: think most people think of now when they think of, yes,
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: Munchausen's syndrome in general, like the idea of pretending that
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: a child is sick in order to get.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Attention, right, or making them sick, or making But yeah,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: and I should say Eminem whining about that, that's not
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: me discounting the experiences of people. Yeah, I've suffered this.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: It's just me discounting Eminem's experience. Like that guy, he's
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: had a good run. It's fine, he's doing okay now.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: But I'm sure that was a tough thing to go through.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Sure, anyway, I bet being married to him was a
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: tough thing to go through to Oh no, absolutely, I
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: know it was.
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  Speaker 4: So.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he becomes a highly sought after witness in criminal
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: trials involving dead children basically, and this a career. This
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: guy was of the belief, basically that most SIDS deaths
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: are actually murders, especially in cases where women lost multiple children.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: He's also really fixated on the idea that once you're
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: at a certain like economic level in your life, your
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: kids don't die suddenly like that happens to poor people.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: And that's facts to some extent obviously. Well, but like
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: that's like saying, well, once you're rich, you should never
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: get struck by lightning, because like the odds he starts
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: bringing up are like winning the lottery struck by lightning
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: kind of shit. But like there's lots of say yes,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: you can't say, well, hey, you're too rich to get
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: struck by lightning. That's not how fucking world works.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: Nope, He's a fucking asshole and a monster. He is
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: the absolute villain of this documentary and of the world.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: He have one of them. Again.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: We're gonna have a lot to say about his use
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: of statistics later on.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he comes up with a statistic that is just
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: so absurd and the entire world just drinks it in
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: without question. It's nothing went along, didn't even think about it.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: So Kathleen folbig back to her She and Craig in
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six have their fourth child, Laura. She died
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: at the age of eighteen months. And this is the
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: point where doctors are getting suspicious because they made a
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: pretty big production of making sure this child did not
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: suddenly die. Yeah, and then she did. Yeah, really sad.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: It's horrifying. And so the police search Kathleen's house and
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: the baby shirt seems like it might have a little
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: bit of blood on it, but beyond that, there's nothing
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: in the house that indicates a murder happened. Yeah, there's
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: like any evidence, is what I'm saying.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Like on the pillow, there's like a tiny
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: they they're like and there was a small amount of
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: blood show found on the pillow, and then they show it,
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: they have to zoom in so much because it is
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: such a pency amount of blood.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: It could be from anything. Yeah, if you had a
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: bloody nose, like just a scratch in your nose, it
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, an amount of blood, like a minor amount
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: of blood trickling out of your nose. Absolutely, But beyond that,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: there's nothing. There's nothing that indicates a murder has happened.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: There's nothing in her background really that indicates that she
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: would murder.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and like this is not evidence necessarily, but all
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: of her friends that she has are extremely supportive. They
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: are some of the major supporting characters in the documentary.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: And no one thinks that she had this within her
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: to kill four babies. To kill four babies, that requires
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: a certain mindset, would you imagine.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna argue it's not typical behavior. No, you
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: don't think. But the thing is, like, according to this
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Roy Medo guy, like women are just murdering their kids
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: constantly all the time, left and right.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, not only that, but like looking for a excuse
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: to be able.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: To murder their children. Like it's kind of how it's phrased,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: it's like, you know, if a child is sick, then
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: it might or you know, if the child gets in
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: a way, it gets in the way, then it might
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: present an opportunity for the mother to murder this child.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: It's like, who thinks like this? It's disgusting. Yeah. So
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: the next story they bring up is Sally Clark. Yeah,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: also tragic. Her first son, Christopher, died within a few
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: weeks of birth in nineteen ninety six. Yeah, and his
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: cause of death was lower respiratory tract infection. Which that's
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: important because again, a doctor looked at this child and
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: came up with a cause of death based on medical
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: science and free of the media storm that eventually springs
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: up around Sally Clark. A little over a year later,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: her second son, Harry, is born. Harry dies a few
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: weeks later under similar circumstances, and about a month after that,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Sally is taken in for questioning and the police suggests
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: that maybe she shook him to death. Yeah. After that,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: a medical examiner for some reason goes back and changes
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Christopher's cause of death to murder by smothering from lower
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: respiratory already tract infection to murder by smothering.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: That's the first thing that really started to make me
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: want to pull off of my hair out of my head.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The conspiracy here is one that I would argue
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: was kind of a global conspiracy that a lot of
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: people can participate in without realizing it. And it is
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: the conspiracy that involves no one wanting to ever admit
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: they're wrong. Sure, and you see a lot of that
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: in this case. There's a whole lot, especially with Kathleen Folbick,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: who is still in prison. There's been we'll go into
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: it in more detail, but there's been a lot of
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: evidence that should have resulted in her exoneration, and the
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: people responsible for looking at it won't look at it
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: because they are so convinced they were right the first time.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: It's maddening.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: It's just it's so sickening and infury.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: I just it's so sad.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: This is something I was really wrestling with while watching it.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: But like, I really don't see the use or reason
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: behind putting a mother who murdered her own child in prison.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: I don't understand prosecuting that as a criminal offense. Like,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: I agree that it is an awful thing, but like
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: that is a obviously obviously a health and welfare issue.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: That is obviously that woman having a you know, mental
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: break and needing help. Like, yeah, how is prison going
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: to resolve the situation? How is dragging these women through
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: the media circus of having everybody they know calling them
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: a child killer helping this situation? Like obviously this goes
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: for almost every criminal justice matter, but just limiting it
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: to parents killing their own children like for one day,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, especially babies, Like it's just so wrong,
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: It's just so wrongheaded and so especially sad to.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Watch, Like, I mean, I can see some cases, like
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: there's just some people are just fucking murderers and they
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: will kill their kids, but especially in cases where things
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: like postpartum depression are involved, Like you can't like that
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: can't be a prison thing, Like that's no, I agree,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: it's like it also like knows how devastating that is
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: now the science is in and well, like there's there's
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: a lot of famous examples of I mean not a lot, fortunately,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: but there are famous examples of women who are still
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: in prison for killing their kids and it was clearly
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: a postpartum depression thing.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, but also like even women who are like just
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: doing it for I guess cold blooded murder.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: That's a mental health issue.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Like, that's not a prison issue. They murdered a child.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: Are they really a danger to public safety?
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I guess I'm thinking, like yes, if you're talking
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: like an actual child. But like if there's like a
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: mother and daughter team who enter into some fucking criminal
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: enterprise when the kid is like in okay and then
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: their mom like offers her in a business deal gone wrong, I.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: Feel like that's significantly different from what you might think
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: when someone says this mom killed her child.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: You know, like.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: I feel like business partner goes first at a certain points. Yeah,
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: but you're sorry. That's that's why abolition this rant. It
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: was just something that I kept coming to over and
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: over as I was watching this, As all of these
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: women are tortured, even if they were guilty, they didn't
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: deserve anything that happens to them.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Just because I'm saying that they don't deserve what happened to.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Them in this doesn't mean that if a mother murdered
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: her child that we as a community should not deal
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: with that.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: No, I get what you're saying, Like there's just no
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: ways to deal with that. Sides just throwing someone in prison.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Right, so much of what spoiler alert for the real
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: life events covered in this documentary, But what happens to
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Sally Clark kills her flat out?
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no if sands or butts, and.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: That should not happen to anybody going to prison, let
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: alone a mother who has killed her child, even if
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: she actually did kill her child.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: The other big aspect of this, the media reaction to
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: this is just as bad as anything else. And it's
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: a thing I've brought up on other podcasts a whole bunch,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: but that whole era of trying people in the media,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: which we still do to some extent, but not like
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: it was in the nineties, like this was happening in
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: the US here too.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: This is why I've said that we should cover the
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Johnny depbamber heard child, because that's kind of the closest
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: thing we have to something like this, and it's just
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: as disgusting. Yeah, it only serves the people in power.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: It only serves the government and the judges and the prosecutors.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: That's the only people that this sort of behavior helps.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: It does not serve our community. It doesn't serve the
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: people who were hurt by the person who is charged
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: like it's just serving the state anyway, that's my abolitionist.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Shit.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry I had to go on it because this
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: was just really rankling the abolitionist in means, so I
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: had to like say.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Some shit, it's a very frustrating documentary. Who like I said,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: cry twice. Yeah, it's it's rough. It's rough. So I
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: don't think we mentioned. But following a lengthy investigation, Sally
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Clark is charged in nineteen ninety eight with murdering her
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: two children. And then there's Angela Cannings, who, Yeah, this
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: one seems especially egregious to me because these kids die
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: like it's not close proximity, Like it's over the course
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: of ten years. I mean that's kind of close. But yeah,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: she had a child, Gemma, in nineteen eighty nine, who
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: died of SIDS at thirteen weeks. Jason born in nineteen
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: ninety one, died at seven weeks. Matthew born in nineteen
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: ninety nine died at eighteen weeks. Not long after Matthew dies,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: she is arrested for murder because by this point there's
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: all these other trials happening and other examples of it,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: so the police are just thirsty to arrest moms, right,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: killing kids.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: And we'll get into this later, but like she's the
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: one who is really only arrested specifically on Meadows Law,
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: Like that is basically the only cited evidence in her
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: whole case.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing all these women have in common
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: is the testimony of Roy Meadow. He by this point, yeah,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: by this point, he's made a name for himself and
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: whenever there's a case like this, he shows up and
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: he whips out Meadows Law, Which if you came up
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: with the law, are you allowed to name the law?
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: I feel like someone else should have to name it
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: and decide if you are worthy of having a law
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: named it for you.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: But I mean that might have been what happened, like
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: he because like there's also I'm thinking of Godwin's Law, Like, yeah,
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: some of the Poe's law, the more recent laws.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, the laws, including Meadows Law.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: But oh yeah, no, Meadows Law is embarrassing.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Metal's Law should be a crime. Like he should be
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: in prison for this, he should have I mean, he
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: should be in space.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: I've already said yeah, but like it's just well, let's
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: say what Meadows Law is.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: First, Meadows Law here it goes, one sudden death is
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: a tragedy, two suspicious, three murder unless proven otherwise. So
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: if you're a woman and three of your kids die,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: you are guilty until you prove to the courts that
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: you are innocent, because that's how the justice system works.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I swear to God. It's supposed to go
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: a little different than that. I think, Like the wording
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: that I heard was slightly different. I can't remember. I
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: can't put my finger on what's wrong with that.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe it was flipped. I don't know, was it flipped?
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Oh yo, give me the exact opposite, right, how it's
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: supposed to be. I've heard that now that I think.
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: I'm interesting, But this, this makes even like a baby,
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: a dead baby could tell you that this does not
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: make a single fucking lick of logical sense, let alone,
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: and when you get into his actual like suggested reasoning
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: for it, it's preposterous.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, my first thought when I heard this, for
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: some reason was a thing that actually comes up later
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: was well, what if it's an environmental thing? Like, yeah,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: what if there is some kind of contamination and where
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: they live that isn't severe enough to kill an adult?
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: But maybe it's severe enough to kill a little baby.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's really hard to keep a baby alive.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: It really is something we've learned through history. Yeah, the
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: most insane part is this, You're right, this is what
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: gets Angela Cannings convicted. And I did not hear a
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: single other piece of evidence like for her.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: And what's crazy about it is by the time she's convicted,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Meadow's law discredited. Yeah, like it had like someone else
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: spoiler it's Sally Clark had already been tried, convicted, and
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: released because they realized Meadow's law was nonsense, and they
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: fucking went forward with trying Angela Cannings and she went
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: to prison. So Sally Clark's trial. Yes, a pathologist who
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: is also a piece of shit and should be in prison.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: That's a thing. That's a thing that doesn't come up
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: enough in stories like fees. Yes, you want the wrongly
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: convicted person to be exonerated and released from prison. Yeah,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: but how about charging those people who clearly were derelict
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: of their duty in trying this crime send them to prison.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Well here's the thing.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: You know what a pro criminal justice advocate would say
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: to that is, well, if you charge these people on
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: those grounds, then you'll charge almost everybody working in criminal justice.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and which has sin that shows that, hey, maybe
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: this entire system should be dismantled. Because if that's the case,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: how then what the fuck are we even doing? Like
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: come on, yeah, it's like so this pathologist, he's a
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: real piece of shit, the worst, like the actual worst. Yeah.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: He testifies that Sally Clark smothered one of her children
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: and shook the other one. This is where shaken baby
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: syndrome briefly comes up. Right when I watched The Syndrome,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: which is the documentary about shaking baby syndrome, the first
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: time they show that shaken baby demonstration, which is a
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: thing I had seen a whole bunch of times throughout
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: my life. I'm sure people listening you can picture it.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: A guy picks up a doll and shakes the shit
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: out of it. And when I first saw it in
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: the context of that documentary, I was like, fuck, I've
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: been lied to my whole life because think about a
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: baby's stupid floppity neck, Like they can't control it, Like
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: you have to cradle a baby's head when you hold
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: fight it hits. Yeah, it's silly. It's silly, like we
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: have to do so much. And yeah, now think about
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: that neck. If you're shaking a baby like that, you're
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: gonna snap their neck like there would be severe damage
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: to the neck. And that's the thing. If you look
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: into a lot of these shaken baby cases, which one
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: problem is they're very hard to find because no one's
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: charged with shaking baby. They're charged with child abuse. So
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: you have to go through every individual child abuse case
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: to find the ones that were shaking baby syndrome. Right,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: And in those cases, if there's no neck injury, that
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: person's innocent. That person did not shake that baby. You
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: cannot shake a baby to that degree without injuring their neck. Also, again,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: you can't hold a baby the wrong way without injuring
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: their neck, much less shake the ever loving shit out
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: of a baby in their necks. Just fine, it doesn't
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: add up, No, it doesn't, not at all. We did again,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: we did an episode of Pretty Scary back in twenty
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: nineteen about this documentary, and we're gonna post that episode.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: It was a bonus episode at the time, and we're
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: gonna post it for free now, like it should be
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: up by the time you're listening to this unless sure
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: way early on the train, in which case give it
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: a couple hours. But go listen to that. It's a
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: very similar thing. It's families, not just where sometimes it's
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: whole families or at least husband and wife go into
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: prison on bullshit charges. And it's because with shaken baby syndrome.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: This group, they're the same group that pushed the Satanic panic.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: The American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Child Abuse and
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Neglect sounds innocent enough, but they are actual evil. They
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: specialize in sending people to prison for crimes they did
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: not commit, and that is all they do. They do
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: not help children, They do not protect children. They hurt
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: children by separating them from their families for no good reason.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: And like, guys, I'm sorry, the American criminal justice system
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: does not need your help sending people to prison for
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: no reason.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Sure does all it sure doesn't. But they were very
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: helpful in this case. What this group did. In a
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: lot of states, if a child comes in with three
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: specific symptoms, which are subdural hematoma, cerebral edema, and retinal hemorrhage.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: In a lot of states still to this day, if
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: you see those three symptoms in a child. This group
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: has put it in people's heads that only shaken baby
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: syndrome can cause those three symptoms. And if you see
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: those three symptoms, you have to call the police because
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: that child is definitely being abused. And now think about
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: what that does to the cop who's getting a call
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: from a doctor. Like this CoP's not a doctor, but
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: the person calling him is a doctor saying I've examined
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: this child. They are being abused. You need to talk
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: to the parents. That cop is not gonna fucking give
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: up until those parents confess to a crime. And yeah,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry people who are skeptical about it, but false
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: confessions happen all the time.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: I just realized. I realized that you interact with true
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: crime fans more than I do. And I was just
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: briefly shocked.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: People.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, false confessions happen all of the time.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: The problem is those three symptoms. In the documentary, they
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: show a list of thirty three different conditions that can
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: cause those three symptoms, and sometimes it's stuff as innocent
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: as vitamin D deficiency, and vitamin D deficiency is an
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: epidemic in this country absolute and then the last thing
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: on the list is other natural or accidental causes. So
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: it's way more than thirty three things. But somehow that
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: it has become law. Like doctors get in trouble, they
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: can get in legal trouble for not calling the police
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: when they see those three symptoms. It's nuts, It's fucking nuts,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: it is. Yeah. In that documentary, there's interrogation video of
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: the police interrogating a woman who her daughter almost certainly
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: had vitamin D deficiency, and they interrogate her the point
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: that she confesses it's nuts.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: There's video of both Sally Clark and Kathleen Folbigg's interrogations
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: in their heartbreaking, heartbreaking watch.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: So there's no evidence suggesting Sally Clark killed her kids. No,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: but Roy Meadow next rolls out the statistic seventy three
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: million to one odds against a family of Clark's status
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: that they would suffer to sudden infant deaths, right like.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: A lot of specifically specifically white, middle class.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Non smoking household. Yes, is what they talk about, a lot,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: and that is what it's. Sally Clark convicted. Yeah, basically
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: she is sentenced to life in prison, which, granted she's
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: in the UK, that's probably like eighteen years or something,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: but still this is a travesty and I think it
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: was more than that. Yeah, I'm just making jokes about No,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I know, it's this actually better in other countries, you know,
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I mean slightly.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, if you listen to this Sally Clark talk
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: about it, it didn't sound great.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: They show the prison Sally Clark was in and I
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: was like, holy shit, that's in England, right.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: I think prison in England in the eighties and nineties
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: was a little bit more hardcore than it maybe is now.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: And even now it's not great. I'm sure, I don't
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: want to be clear, I'm not saying that. You know,
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: it's all lollipops and rainbows, but it's no Nordic prison.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: So the UK media, after Sally Clark gets sentenced, promptly
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: sets about just murdering her character. Like the police go
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: to the media and they're like, hey, she was a
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: little bit of an alcoholic and they just it's awful.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, like the British tablites are some of the
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: sickest in the world. Yeah, just most depraved to have
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: ever existed. If you've ever seen a fucking Daily Mail
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: or Son headlined, and you can picture just like fucking
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: five inch letters baby killer, mother and NI shit with
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: a picture of your face, Like imagine that and you
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: know obviously that you didn't do it, and you've had
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: two babies. Dot. That's just what I keep going through
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: over and over again is these women have literally just
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: had a baby die after a series of babies dying,
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: and like that's unimaginable pain, unimaginable.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why people like Roy Meto. There has to
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: be a mechanism for charging people.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like if a doctor the laws with the system, Like,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: if a doctor.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Was that negligent, you could charge them with malpractice. But
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: what do you do to fucking Roy Meto? Like he
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: is a doctor, yeah, and.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: He was that negligent and they kind of slapped.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Him on the wrists a little bit. Yeah yeah, they Yeah,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: they really gave him me a what for. It's just devastating.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: Like again, like it's no surprise that even if these
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: women are released, it's impossible for you to go back
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: to living a normal life, at least in your home.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: Like how are you ever gonna stay living in that
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: neighborhood or even in that city? You know, Like I
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: couldn't imagine doing that. I would have to move like
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: a country.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Probably, yeah, yeah, you would absolutely want to relocate somewhere.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: So next Kathy Folbig is arrested, and the way she's
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: arrested this is this is the big hitch in her
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: case that I think is keeping her in prison. Her husband, Craig,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: finds her diary and like a good husband, he reads it,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: and in it she says a few different things, but
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: one of the quotes is I know there's nothing wrong
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: with them, nothing out of the ordinary anyway, because it
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: was me, not them. She also wrote I am my
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: father's daughter, and reminder her father murdered her mother. And
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: so Craig, once again, being just a great husband and
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: life partner, takes those diaries to the police.
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: Imagine having so little empathy for the person that you
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: have married and decided to raise children with, to have
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: so little understanding of them. I mean, he married her
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: when he was like thirty and she was eighteen. So look,
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying he was a good guy. I'm definitely
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: not saying that, but like to read this stuff, and
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: they read several passages from her diary that have been
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: used against her throughout this documentary, and everyone, if you
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: are remotely empathetic as a human being. They just read
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: as a person who is suffering and is trying to
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: express the pain that she is feeling about what is
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: happening in her life.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like that first quote, because it was me, not them.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: It seems like she's just saying there's something about her
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: that right, she's just not gonna be allowed to have kids. Absolutely,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: it's not proof that she fucking murdered her kids. Oh
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: like not.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's absolutely like Craig would be a piece
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: of shit regardless for doing all of this. But like then,
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: you know, the police, you know, probably should have not
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: taken this as evidence because it's clearly not.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or at least have a doctor examine it first
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: But a psychiatrists, I mean, you know, like shit, I mean, look,
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: a diary, I'm sure is important evidence or whatever. Like again,
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: I don't think this should be treated as a criminal
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: case to begin with, but whatever, but surely you have
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: an expert you have you know, you seem to love experts,
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: So why don't you have one who's like a psychiatrist.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But instead they just immediately arrest her just based
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: on the diary because when they question her about it.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: She explained what she was getting at to the best
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: of her ability, because again she's emotionally devastated in this moment.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: That's the other thing. A fucking demeanor conviction. I hate it.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: And there's there's a documentary series on Netflix called The
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Confession Tapes which is really good, and it's about people
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: who confess to crimes that they say they did not commit.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: There's one case where I think motherfuckers did it. But
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: there's also one where this guy and his wife get
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: sent to prison. They had a car accident basically, and
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: their car went into the river and they weren't able
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: to get the kids out because they weren't like especially
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: strong swimmers. Like the kids drown and the parents lived.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: And this guy gets convicted basically because he didn't show
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: enough emotion, but also he had been prescribed valium because
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: his kids had just died. And as someone who's taken valuum,
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: that shit shuts you down. That's the whole point, Yes,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: like it really them emotions. And then to turn around
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: and say, well he's obviously a murderer because he's not
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: crying enough. It's right, really gets under my skin. And
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: you see the life time all the time.
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and in this tape we see of Kathy forbig like,
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: she looks like a woman who just lost her fourth infant.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: That's what she seems like to me.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: I don't see a murderer there, now, you know, I'm sorry,
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: and of course I'm biased or whatever, but don't act
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: like the fucking cops aren't. And they are just totally
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: forcing the issue and you know, constantly returning to the
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: question of whether she did it, like it I it's
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: just an even that alone would be an unimaginable torture
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: for a mother.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So of course the media sets about destroying her
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: character also before her trial is even over. Thank god.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: Well, at least Australia is a little nicer than Britain,
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: right surely.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Oh no, unfortunately not. We're all part of the Five Eyes.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: We all do the same stuff. John Sweeney, John Sweeney
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: is the one, I mean, not the only, but he's
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: he's a good guy, Like, he's one of the good
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: characters in this He's an investigative journalist and he as
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: these trials are happening, he recognizes that these women are
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: probably being railroaded and he starts looking in specifically to
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Roy Meadow's one in seventy three million statistic, And it
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: turns out that statistic comes from a guy named Peter Fleming,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: a professor of infant health. He sent roy Meto a
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: report that he was the lead researcher on and asked
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: him to like write the preface, and there was a
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: quote about one in seventy three million in there. It
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: was not the quote Roy Meto claims it to be,
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: but he completely misinterprets this and uses that misinterpretation to
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: essentially long career sending innocent women to prison.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: As Peter Fleming says, like one in seventy like seventy
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: three million is the number of births that had happened
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: in the United Kingdom in the last one hundred years. Yeah,
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: like you know, so it's obviously on its face.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Wrong, And Peter Fleming offers to go testify on Sally
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: Clark's behalf. He's like, hey, I'm also an expert. I'm like,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I'm the expert that you're expert got that quote from.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: So how about you let me come explain it and
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: we can probably get Sally Clark out of prison. And
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: they're like, no, it's fine, We've no thanks. Yeah, we've
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: this is settled business. Let's just move on.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: Wait wait, I'm sorry, we're not here to get people
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: out of prison.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what you think we're trying to do.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Peter Fleming, he's turned down when he offers to yes
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: testify on Sally Clark's behalf. But eventually public opinion starts
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: to turn on Roy Meadow because it's even in prison.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Because even though Peter Fleming isn't allowed to testify in
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Sally Clark's behalf, there's nothing stopping him from working with
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: John Sweeney to get the information out about how flagged
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Roy Meadow's law is. And this is here, right here
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: is where Roy Meadow there should be something you can
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: charge Roy Meto with. When he was challenged about the
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: research to support his one in seventy three million claim,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: he said it was his own research and he shredded it.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Fucking what. There are women in prison for life and
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: you shredded the research to back up your claim. I'm sorry,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: Roumetto should be in prison. He should go to space.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: He should go to space would be well space prison obviously,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: which is just no.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: Space, no suit, is what I'm saying, Like we space
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: this motherfucker.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Like, let just launch him up.
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: Just strap a fucking rocket to his back and let
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: him go. He needs to get the fuck out of here.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. When I heard that part, I was floored, Like
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: to fully evil pass yourself off as a man of
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: science and then say I shredded the research. Why were
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: you afraid the Nazis were gonna find it when they
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: invaded the UK? What the fuck are you talking about?
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: You shredd it? Yeah, Roy, I'm afraid that you're going
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: to have to hand over all of your shredder uh contents.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Like I think where you go through that too, like
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: the thing that comes up, it comes up a few times.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: It's like people like people on the criminal justice side
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: are like, you know, Roy, he.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Was just such a fun guy. He was so lovable.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: He was kind of like your fun uncle, someone says
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: at one point, and then you look at this motherfucker.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: He looks like the most stiff, upper lip British fuck
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: wad that's ever existed.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: He looks like a pain in the ass, looks like
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: your fun uncle, maybe some Brits fun uncle, but not
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: my red blooded American fun uncle. So shortly after the
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Sally Clark conviction, Angela Cannings goes on trial, and by
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: this point it's come out that Meadow's law is mostly nonsense.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Like Roy Meadow has been publicly shamed at this point.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: On top of that, we mentioned environmental factors earlier. Turns out,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: in Angela Canning's case, four other families in her same
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: village basically suffered this exact same fate.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: Okay, Like they're like, no, we dismissed the possibility of
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: environmental causes, and then they're listing like, okay, well, she
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: lived next to a train track that carried hazardous waste,
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: they live next to a bunch of like a you know,
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: an old dump or some shit, and they're like, oh yeah,
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: and they also live next to a old military weapons
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: testing crown.
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, come.
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: On, now, you don't think maybe any of this could
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: have had a factor.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What's crazy is, according to Meadows law, all of
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: those mothers murdered their children. Like the former families, it
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: would be that that would all be murdered and like
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: the odds of that happening like one in seventy three
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: million at least. Yeah, it only happens once every hundred years.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: And the problem is the defense isn't able to prove
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: any of the environmental causes as leading to the death
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: of her children, right, But also the prosecution doesn't provide
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: any evidence that she killed her kids.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: No, none at all, especially in Angela's case, which is
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: why it was the one that really was the nail
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: in the coffin for Roy at least, you know, I
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: mean he then began practicing medicine again years later. But like,
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: this was the one that really got most women off
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: because it's only Meadows law that is the sighted reason
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: and the only cited reason. Because then they go in
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: and I think it's her where they go in and
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: they're like, yeah, like this kid, he had like blood
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: behind his eye, you know, he had like, you know,
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: blood in his eyes, signs of retinal beating. And then
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: they're like, oh no, Actually turns out that happened after
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: he died. Uh oh what whoops? Oh you're already going
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: to prison. We can't stop you.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: A sorry, Oh no, sorry, you know, sorry, whoop? Your
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: life is destroyed. Becau's okay, you'll get another one, sweetie. Yeah,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: believe in karma. Speaking of the rare good figure in
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: this documentary, there's just a couple of really big villains,
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: and it makes it seem like everyone in this is
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: a villain. But Marilyn Stowe, she is a family lawyer
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: and she fucking rules. She's great. She reaches out to
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: the Clark family and offers to help because she knows
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: Sally Clark has been convey based on Meadows Law basically,
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: and wants to try and get her out of prison.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: And this is the kind of shit I'm talking about
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: when stuff like this is a celebration of shitty police work.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: She immediately finds out from a nurse at the hospital
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: where the second child, Harry, died right that the nurse
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: was concerned there might have been a problem with the
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: baby's heart monitor because it kept going off, And the
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: lawyer asks the obvious question was there may be something
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: wrong with the baby and not the heart monitor, And
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: she's like, oh, I didn't think that. Say. This woman
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: is like, yeah, good point. How about you go talk
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: to my superiors, and she sends Marilyn Stowe to another
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: medical center where the staff there says they are not
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: talking to her. They're like, we need lot. Yeah, They're like,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: don't even come in. We're not talking to you at all.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: And the police call her and ask her why she's
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: poking around, like, we already solved this case in it,
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: why are you asking all these questions. The hospital calls
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: her and says, stop talking to our employees, and she says,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: I am going to keep calling your employees until you
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: cooperate with me. Yeah, And so they give her all
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: the documents they have in their possession regarding baby Harry's
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: death and they find it's right in the report he
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: died of meningitis. He had a lethal amount of bacteria
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: in his spinal fluid, aka, he died of meningitis. How
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: would Sally Clark fucking give her kid meningitis?
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: It's not how that works, No, not at all. Again,
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: it's not even hard police work.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: It's just there. It's basic police it's not even police work.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: It's like medicalam in her work. Yeah, how did no
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: one look at these files? Because that's all it takes.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Like I don't that's all it takes. Like Sally Clark
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: went to prison for a bunch of years. It's travesty.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: But yeah, once that happens, like they turn it over
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: to an appeals court and the appeals court is like,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, fuck yeah, she shouldn't be in prison anymore.
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: Whoop, whoop, and wait, nothing bad happened to her though
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: during this whole thing, like she's fine, no, yeah, okay, good, Yeah.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: Do I even have in the notes? What eventually happens
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: to Sally Clark? She dies? She dies? Yeah, she like
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: kills it.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, she becomes an alcoholic and has
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: lethal alcohol poisoning, drinks herself to death in two thousand
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: and seven. And it's so it's just so sad.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's obviously because of this, like absolutely
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: this combined with like two children dying. Yeah, the children
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: dying would have probably like that's gonna be a make
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of people drink themselves to death, and on
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: top of that, you get charged with their murder and
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: you get your entire name dragged through the mud by
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: every media outlet. It's nuts, just ruined.
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: Her husband at least is not Craig, not as bad
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: as Creig. Yes, he is at least kind of get
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: He's like, no, I believe that you didn't kill your
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: our children, Like, yeah, I obviously trust.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: You, But fucking Craig in the midst of all worst,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: Even after Sally Clark is released, Kathy Kolbick's trial carries on,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: even though again she's basically arrested based on Meadows Law,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: which has been super duper discredited by now And I
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: feel like it's those diary entries that are that's what
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: the issue.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, we'll talk about it, but that's definitely what's
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: keeping her in prison.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw a true crime episode once about a
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: guy who was convicted of his wife's murder in part
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: because he downloaded I used to love her by Guns
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: and Roses shortly before. And here's the thing. He did
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: definitely kill her. Sure, it's just weird that that came up.
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it just doesn't seem like that has anything to
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: do with it other than he's an ass, Like he
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: just likes GNR and he's kind of a dick.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that kind of he killed someone. But still, but yeah,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: she gets super duper convicted because even though there's no
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: actual physical signs of smothering, she is convicted of murder
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: and the claims that she smothered her children to death.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: There's been doctors who have given a cause of death. Yeah,
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: and nevertheless they say she smothered her kids. So on
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: the bright side, John Sweeney, the investigative reporter we mentioned earlier.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: He starts looking into Angela Canning's case because she's still
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: in prison, and he looks into her family tree, and
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: what he finds is that this same thing has been happened,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: happening to women in her family going back like three generations. Yeah,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: which again they turn it over to an appeals court
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: and her conviction is overturned because those stats certainly don't
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: support Meadow's law. That's no god do I'm sure.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: Well, because Meadow's law just whole cloth dismisses the very
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: idea of there being a genetic link to SIDS, not
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: to mention the fact that this is something that statistically.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: Roy Meadow is not a statistician. He is a physician.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: He does not have any idea about statistics, and a
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: lot of statisticians were very critical of him, but they
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: were like, the most important thing, though, is, like I
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: wanted to read this that the occurrence of one caught
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: death makes it likely that the family in question has
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: such conditions, and the probability of subsequent deaths is therefore
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: greater than the group average, which is something that Meadows
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: law does not take into account at all. It's something
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: like one in a hundred if you have if you
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: have a precon you know, precondition for it. So of
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: course these women are having multiple That just makes that
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: actually makes more sense.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: I think the reason it's just labeled under this umbrella
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: term of SIDS. Like we'll talk in a minute about
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: what it takes this team of doctors, like the work
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: they have to do to figure out how Kathleen Folbig's
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: kids actually died, Like it's like it's heavy science, Like
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: it is a whole bunch of research and investigation that
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: your local coroner or medical examiner isn't gonna do, your
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: locald isn't gonna do.
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: Well, it's not just that, but it was even harder
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: because this is happening years and years after the kids
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: have died, Like it would be actually slightly easier for
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: a coroner who was motivated to actually try to find
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: the cause of death, to find the actual cause of death.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: And it's the exact thing that people accuse conspiracy theorists
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: of all the time, is well, you're just like reaching
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: for an explanation for something they're unexplainable, And it's like
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: that's what these fucking cops are doing. And that's what
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: these prosecutors have to do. Sometimes tragedy strikes a family
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: like yes, that's.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: Often with something like yeah, and often with something like this.
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: If tragedy strikes a family once, it can often happen again.
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: But don't say that it's seventy three million to one
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: is the like, it is the exact opposite in fact,
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: of what the actual truth is. It's actually way more
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: like it's like closer to two to one in some cases.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but don't worry. Roy Meadow, he gets his finally
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and five, he's struck off the medical register,
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: which I'm guessing means he lost his medical license. That
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: was my understanding. Yeah, and I think that lasted about
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: six months something, not very long. It was very brief,
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: and then it was reinstated. However, he is banned from
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: giving testimony in court cases going forward, which that's good,
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: but also arrest Moore Roy Meadow and Roy Moore almost
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: slipped up and said.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: No okay in a space in a space in the space,
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: yeah space space. Both these motherfuckers like the worst. Fuck
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: Roy Meadows and yeah. It's just so symbolic of the
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: problems with criminal justice systems.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: In most countries. Yeah, the pathologist in the Sally Clark case,
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: that motherfucker he was struck off the medical register for
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: three years.
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: That'll show him absolutely.
• 57:02
  Speaker 6: I mean, what the fuck I mean, it's just he
• 57:06
  Speaker 6: fucking changed the document like he he knowingly fabricated is
• 57:12
  Speaker 6: evidence to the court.
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: People get arrested for that ship all the time.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: It's a crime.
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know how it works in jolly
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: old London, but here in fucking America that doesn't ever
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: really get prosecuted unless you're you know, black or poor.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly would have gone the exact same way here.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Don't worry about. We just wouldn't have been wearing wigs
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: when we sent everyone to prison. Yeah, that's okay.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: Look, I really like, I don't understand how how you
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: keep doing the wig thing.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Guys. It looks how am I.
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: Ever supposed to take you seriously as a lawyer. And
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I know it's tradition or whatever, but tradition sucks.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: Aditions stop happening because they weren't good, because they're silly,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: And that's one of them. That's just I bet those
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: either they fucking stink they got or the taxpayer money
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: that goes into keeping them pristine is just it would
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: probably bring down the Royal family if the uk knew
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: what they're spending keeping those fucking wigs clean.
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: Well, like you, they always look a little yeah, like
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: they always look a little ratty.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, looks like they stole them from the grave
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: of the person they're imitating.
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: They like, I just don't think that the people who
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: are practicing law and trying to decide whether someone is
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: going to lose their life potentially well not in London,
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: but you know whatever, like have their lives ruined. Like,
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: I don't think that they should be defended by someone
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: who looks like a historical reenactor, you know, like they
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: should look professional.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so here xenophobia, Yeah exactly, here's the thing. Free
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Kathleen Foldig. Oh my god, absolutely still in prison. Speaking
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: of another hero in this story, immunogeneticist doctor Kerala Vinosa.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: She fucking rule. She's great and I love her. She
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: does like, you'll have to watch the documentary and let
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: her explain it. Me and Olivia certainly aren't going to
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: put all this science into words in a good pay Yeah.
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: I'm not an immunogeneticist, but I don't feel qualified.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: She does a whole bunch of research into this family
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: and she finds that the two girls had genetic mutations
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: that predisposed them to sudden, unexpected death, as did Kathleen,
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: like they all had it. The two boys both carried
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: potentially lethal genetic mutations linked to early on set leth
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: full epilepsy in mice, and one of the deaths was epilepsy. Yeah. So,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: on March fourth, twenty twenty one, a petition signed by
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: more than one hundred scientists, including doctor Vinuesa, was published
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: by the Australian Academy of Science calling for full Big
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: to be pardoned. On March twenty fourth, twenty twenty one,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: Kathleen's appeal was once again rejected. The court did not
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: take the scientific evidence into account, and not because it
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: wasn't available. The judge was just like, I've seen everything
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: I need to see in this case. She did it.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: So that's that's especially frustrating because so many times you
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: see people will go, we got we got all the
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: physical evidence, we got all the DNA, but then you'll
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: get that same cop a few years later, going they
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: thought they were going to come in here and fool
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: everybody with their science. It's like, you don't fool people
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: with science like you just you just read the science
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: here and it should lead to you letting this woman
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: out of prison, despite how depressed she was in those
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: diary entries. But the diary entries, especially in this case,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: are almost all they take into account. And they're playing
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: audio in the courtroom and at one point the prosecutor
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: mentions that she said she lost it with one of
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: the kids, and he was like, what was that the
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: first time you lost it with You've lost it with
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: the other kids, right, and that he keeps saying you
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: lost it, you lost it, And it turns out, if
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: you keep reading that diary entry, what lost it means
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: is her kid was crying and would not stop crying,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: so she took the kid out of the high chair
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: and put him on the floor so he could crawl around,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: and she went in her room to cry. That's what
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: fucking lost it means. And she's still it's fucking convicted
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: for a second time. Nuts, absolutely nuts, fucking arrest Roy Meadow.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: It's so sad and like, both of the things that
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: made me cry related to kathy phobic. One was her
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: friend who was the babysitter who for her fourth child. Naturally,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: she required that anybody who would babysit her child was
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: CPR certified, and so she basically had one friend who
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: would babysit for her and her like, her name's Karen,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: and she talks about an incident where the baby stopped
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: breathing and she's so terrified by it that she bursts
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: into tears, like out and it just is so heart wrenching,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: and it also seems like that would be.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 7: Evidence that maybe yeah, can kill her kid, but you
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 7: know that's and then like and then at the end
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 7: when they're talking about trying you know, this is like
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 7: last year, and they're talking to one of her friends
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 7: about getting her out of prison, and she's.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah, no, she's gonna come stay with me, and
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: like and she leads her around the little house that
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: she made for her on like in her place, and
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: like she's like, yeah, you know, she's just been in
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: a place where it's had to be serious every day,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: and so I just thought i'd make this like really fun.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna start crying again.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 8: Yeah, Like She's just like, I just thought I'd make
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 8: this like fun, you know, have it be like funny,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 8: you know, so it just like let her around and
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 8: there's like paintings of animals because she likes anything. It's
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 8: just like, these people know that she is not a murderer.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 8: Everybody knows, and the courts are still adamant about keeping
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 8: this woman in prison. It's an unconscionable torture I can't
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 8: even imagine.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's I mean, I hate to say it,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: like I hate to be all American exceptionalism about it,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: but this is the kind of thing you expect to
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: happen in the United States, right. The fact that it's
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: all not happening here is kind of jarring. It's like, well,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: what means that? What's the shitty US remake of this?
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: Because I'm sure it has happened by now. Yeah, there's
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: no way that this, I mean, this travesty of justice
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: has probably no I'm saying.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: There's no way this hasn't happened, like this basically exact thing.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: We just don't know about it. Well, it's the Shaken
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: A lot of it is the Shaken Baby Center, sure
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: stuff for sure. And again but like listen to that
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: episode or watch that documentary, do both.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, the all of what it proves is that
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: it's not just an American sickness. It's not just a
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: problem with our criminal justice system. It's a problem with
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: how so many modern cultures think about the actual like
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: concept of criminal justice.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and women and women.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, of course, there's obviously a whole Roy Meadow
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: is in absolute misogynist.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, just a full on.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: Woman hating asshole, and that just informs every aspect of
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: his professional life and the fact that he is unscathed
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: by this other than basically, I think anybody who is
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: paying attention in Britain during this time knows that he
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: is a quack. But materially he's still able to practice
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: medicine at the very that should be the absolute least
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: of his punishments is the fact that he should no
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: longer be allowed to practice medicine.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this guy should be working at a petrol station.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, I mean, but then I feel bad for
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: the petrol station attendance.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this piece of shit's still alive, of course. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: he'll never die. No, probably not. There's even another couple,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Ian and angela gay. Yeah. He apparently sent them to prison. Also.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, his Wikipedia page is a ride if you
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: want to, if anybody wants to go take a look.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: It's I mean, he's a monster. He's one of these
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: classic British medical monsters.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: He accused them of He accused them of killing their
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: kid with via non accidental salt poisoning. Oh it turned out.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: It turned out he just had a form of diabetes
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: that caused an elevated salt level.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: Arrest Roy Meadow into space, no suit, just on a rocket.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: So I think that's our episode. Sorry, this wasn't I mean,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: are any of these episodes like really feel good episodes
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: I don't like I cospiracy podcast, We're not.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: I think this was as fun as an episode about
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: a half dozen babies dying can be.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. On the one hand, I would normally say, go
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: watch this documentary. I mean it's good, it's very good,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: it's very well done, it's very important information. But also
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: it's a lot. It's tough. I mean you'll probably cry, yeah,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: you should, like you should cry watching this.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 9: Yeah, but until then, but also you could just listen
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 9: to this episode and dude, listens to a pretty scary
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 9: episode also about chaw syndrome, because that is also a
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 9: travesty of justice.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: I don't know what we're gonna cover next. It'll be
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: be a bonus episode, but I don't know what it'll
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: be about. Yeah, I need Jesse venture to make more television.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: That's what I really really need.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: I just I just watched Predator and it was so
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: nice to see him.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: It really was. I really don't be invisible. It felt
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: like seeing an old friend now, like I never had
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: that much of an attachment in the past.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: Beyond he's a funny voice to do. But I now
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: just love the guy, I really do.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I was wrong about him being a
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Trump supporter. He actually called for Trump to be arrested.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: So that's hell yeah, hell yeah, Jesse. Fuck, we can
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: still smoke weed. Yeah, let's roll it up. Do not
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: bring Oliver Stone's kid. I don't trust him. No, please, No,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: I didn't say I went to fucking smoke with Sean Stone, right,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Sean Stone? And what's this kid's name? Tyrell? Shit, you're
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: not yeah Tyrell? Yeah, Tyrell. Hard to forget that name.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: So we'll be back with a bonus episode next week.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: If you haven't yet, you could go listen to Going
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: Back our Lost Rewatch Podcasteah. If you are a conspiracy
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: the show subscriber, you're getting those right in the same
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: feed before they go public. You're welcome and bonus episodes,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: so don't say we never did nothing for you. And
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: that podcast fun as hell. Oh yeah, it's a blast.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: I'm having a great time. Man, if this network could
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: just be rewatch podcasts, get me on that road. Absolute
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: want so check that out. And yeah, I'm doing a
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: live podcast, a live episode of Unpopular Opinion August twenty
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: eighth at four pm in New York City at New
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: York City, right where all the good sauce is made.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I bet there's really good salsa there
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: is city there is.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: There's a good barbecue in New York too, which would
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: also make people go New York.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so come to that in New York City August
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: twenty eight, four pm. Me Alex Schmidt, Sliceberg Slim who's
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: been on this podcast before, and my comedian friend Kalise Hawkins.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: We are going to be doing a live Unpopular Opinion episode.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: So come to that on pops dot co slash NYC
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: to get tickets. And that's all for me. Do you
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: have anything to plug?
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: Uh, I'll plug me going to community College.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm doing. Hell yeah, I think that's it.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Let's get out of here, Olivia say goodbye, bye, goodbye everybody.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: We love you people of Earth.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 4: Your planet has to be destroyed, struct your plans has
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 4: to be destroyed.