Latest / Chef's PSA Podcast / Emmanuel Laroche on Madagascar Vanilla and Flavors Unknown | Episode 198

Transcript

Emmanuel Laroche on Madagascar Vanilla and Flavors Unknown | Episode 198 · Chef's PSA Podcast

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So all the vanilla that are implemented in other part of the
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world have to be hand pollinated.
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So every morning during the season, which is in September
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and October in Madagascar, women because smaller finger will go
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and you know, it needs vine that they have in on their piece of
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land. They will hand pollinate.
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And I've done that step when I went to Yeah.
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So they take like a little, usually a thorn.
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Hello chefs, this is Chefs PSA and I'm your host Andre Natera.
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Today I'm joined by my friend Emmanuel La Roche, host of
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Flavors Unknown podcast and author focused on global food
0:39
culture. We talked about his journey to
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Madagascar, home to most of the world's vanilla, his experiences
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travelling through remote regions, and how that led to his
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latest book, A Taste of Madagascar.
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We get into his writing process, what he's learned from chefs
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around the world, global food trends and global flavors.
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Stay tuned. What was the most wild thing?
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Like, can you, can you think of a moment when you were in
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Madagascar that you were like, oh, I'm in a I'm in.
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Like, do you have a story that's like, OK.
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Yeah, it's a long story, but yes.
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OK, so there was a special trip that I have taken, not on my own
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because in Madagascar you cannot, you know, rent a car and
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just decide that, you know, to go like this you need to have a
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driver. So I decided to stay an extra
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week after, you know, my guests, American chef, you know, left
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and went back to to the US and I went to the West side of the
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country and there is National Park that I wanted to spend time
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on. And it took 9 hours in Dart Road
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to get from where I landed to the park. 9 hours one way, one
2:06
hours another the way back. And we were on, you know, on our
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own that the driver, I was sitting, you know, the pass
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entrance seats and, and I thought he was like nervous, but
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I had no idea why. And I was asking questions, you
2:24
know, of course, you know, going into through villages and
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fantastic landscapes and so on. So I was asking him and, and I
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said, Hey, you're a bit nervous, so why?
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And he said, no, no, everything is fine.
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You know, I guess he had, you know, some directive or like,
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you know, not to share too much. And then then I started to
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understand asking questions that we should not have not have been
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on our own. We should have been part of the
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convoy of a series of, you know, cars like about 25, you know, 4
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wheel drives. And because of the fact that I
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needed some cash at the bank when I landed, we started late
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because there was a line in the bank and blah, blah, blah.
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And so he said, yeah, we should have been part of that.
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And but we are going to, you know, to join them.
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They are going to wait for us. And, you know, next village
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probably and next village, no cars.
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And the guys was really now pale white.
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And, you know, his knuckles was really like tense, like on the
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wheel. And I'm like, OK, now you have
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to tell me what is going on here.
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He said, OK, what happened? He is that there is bandits in a
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group of bandits in the region that we are just crossing at the
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moment. And they are in fact stealing
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handbag cows, which is one of the big, I would say sign of
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wealth, you know, in, you know, for farmers in in Madagascar.
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And there's a tradition that when you are moving from, you
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know, a teenage yours as a boy to an adulthood, then you are to
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go to the next tribe and steal, you know, those kind of.
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Like a rite of passage. Exactly a rite of passage.
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And but what happened is that tradition, in fact, turning to
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some group of bandits, you know, in other part of the of the
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country. And I learned from my driver
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that if they don't find, you know, the cattle to steal, then
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they will go back to and, you know, return on like whatever
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they can find. And usually it's some of the
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tourist cars are passing by, you know, and he said a few years
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back, so he was before COVID, you know, there was one car that
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was stopped and in fact, there was a shooting and, you know,
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someone was injured and I'm not, oh, oh, OK, so now I, I get it.
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But he said he's getting, we are fine now.
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We, we passed that zone. And so I, I spend my time at the
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National Park. He was, he was amazing
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experience. And then on the way back, I'm
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like, OK, how is it going to be, you know, what's going to be the
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situation? And this time we were at 25
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cars. I was on the front car and
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someone from the Army, like really went on that side to go
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in the back of the car and there was a guys with a rifle, you
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know, sitting on the front seat. So there was another guy in the
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middle of the convoy and another one on the last car.
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And we went through, you know, a series of village and villages
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and and, you know, and everything was fine.
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But but I was, you know, a type of a interesting adventure that,
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you know, that took place. What what inspired this?
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So for people that don't know, you just wrote this beautiful
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book, which I've been, I've been flipping through the last couple
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of days. I'm enjoying it.
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It's a beautiful book, by the way, great photography and there
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wonderful recipes. What inspired this?
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Because you know, I'm thinking back to when we spoke right
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before you started writing this. And I remember you asking me
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like, what do you think about Madagascar and vanilla?
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And, and you said there's more to the story.
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And, and at the time I was like, well, I don't, I don't know
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anything. So then you went and you, you
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took, you took some chefs with you.
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Yeah, so, So what happened is that my I did 3 trips to to the
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island. One was professional and then
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two were like personal vacation. The first one, I really went to
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Madagascar because of Venida. If people don't know 80% of the
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world production of Venida being comes from that island come from
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Madagascar. So I organized my like day job.
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I organized like competition with one of our vanilla extracts
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that was for the hospitality industry and about 80 chefs and
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pastry chef mixologies participated.
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And the grand prize was for me to take the three winners, you
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know, closer to the source of vanilla, so to Madagascar.
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So I took Chef Elizabeth Faulkner with me.
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I took Michael, Michael Guilota from from New Orleans and then
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Shannon T Bay that at the time just left, I think Death and
7:13
Company. She was the director of Beverage
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and Death and Company in New. York Good, good group.
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So good group. Yeah, yeah, I know Elizabeth
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through, you know, I mean through James Beard and what not
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for sure. Yeah.
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She's an amazing chef. She it's good company to have.
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And I knew them because I had them on the podcast already, you
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know, and Flavours Unknown, I had at least two of them.
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I had Elizabeth Faulkner and and Michael Goetta, so that that was
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really like the, the objective of the trip was to discover
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vanilla. And when I went there, I had
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absolutely no idea that I will write my second book, you know,
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on Madagascar. I I wanted to find an idea, you
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know, to write the second book after Conversations Behind the
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Kitchen Door that I published in 2022.
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Which is a great book, by the way, for people that don't know
8:02
Conversations Behind the Kitchen Door.
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By the way, the first quote is mine, right?
8:07
Yes. Yeah.
8:07
The very first quote. I don't remember what it is.
8:09
I know, I know the first. I know that you put on there.
8:12
I know one of mine. But there's a lot of great chefs
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featured in there. Who are some of the chefs in the
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book. I know I'm in. 50 of them. 50
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chefs like Chris Cosantino. Yeah, Chris Cosantino is only
8:22
There is a bet. Faulkner is on it.
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You know you are on it. There is Chef Tim Muddingworth
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from from LA There is Fiori Tedesco.
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Fiori Tedesco from Austin. Maybe Phillip Spear also.
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Yeah, A. Lot of really great chefs.
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So that book, which I want to get into, but you know, in a
8:45
second, but for people that don't know you have, I mean,
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most people should know you have this great podcast Flavors
8:49
unknown. It's a, it's a, it's a where you
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get to speak to a lot of chefs. And that first book was a
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companion to the podcast. Yeah, it was, it was, Yeah,
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exactly. It was inspired like the writing
9:03
the book was based on the rich content that I had from the
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podcast and and as well my experience of experiences around
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the country of, you know, doing a lot of tastings, you know,
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with with, you know, at restaurants.
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So so writing that first book, you thought, well, I should do
9:18
a. Second, yeah, I, you know, I
9:19
really like the process of writing a book and I'm sure
9:22
we're going to talk about it. But the, the idea from you was
9:25
like, OK, you know, if I find a second idea and then, you know,
9:27
I'll, I'll, I'll do it. And so I arrive on on the
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island, we did the whole discovery of, of vanilla.
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And then I was exposed to a lot of other ingredients that I
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realized that chefs around the world are using their kitchen
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and people have no idea it's coming from Madagascar.
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And so for instance, there is a wild black pepper, which is
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endemic from the island. Amazing profile with kind of
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like citrusy, you know, notes. There is obviously pink
10:02
peppercorn because I learned that Madagascar is the second
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producer of pink peppercorn after Brazil.
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And then there is, you know, honey, a lot of different honey
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because 90% of the flora and the fauna in Madagascar is only
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found there. So there's a rich biodiversity.
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So there's a lot of different, you know, trees and blossoms and
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so on. So you have honey from
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mangroves, you have honey from lychee, you have so primary
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forest and so cocoa and cocoa, yeah.
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So even if they are very like small producer, they produce
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only .1% of the total production of cocoa.
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Their profile because of the species, you know, where there's
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like different species, three major species of cocoa,
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Forestero is 1 and Creolo is the most refined and they are trying
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to focus on producing that profile.
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So very interesting notes of red fruits and and citrus in their
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in their cocoa and then caviar, which was like really big
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discovery. Yeah, I know you do.
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So, so that was like, really, when I saw all of this, I'm
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like, okay, every time I hear about Madagascar on the news,
11:23
it's about negative things. Well, and I said I want the
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cartoon this. All the cartoon.
11:27
Yes, yeah. What you talk about in your
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book, you said everyone only thinks about the.
11:30
First time I talked to people when I said, by the way, I'm
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going to write a book about Madagascar.
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You mean the movie? I'm like, why'd you say what?
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What do you mean? I said no, it's an island, it's
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a country and say, really? Yeah, most people had no idea,
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right? No idea.
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Yeah, no idea. It's funny because when I think
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of Madagascar, besides the movie, I think about the, you
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know, vanilla. You know, Madagascar vanilla,
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which is like most likely the industry standard.
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It is the industry standard for most chefs.
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One of the questions I would have for you having spent so
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much time in Madagascar, When I think of vanilla, I think of
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sweet applications. Are there savory applications
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there that? I like your question.
12:09
I'm smiling because you, you don't know what I want to say,
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that's why. Go ahead.
12:14
I'm curious what were the? There's no application
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whatsoever. What?
12:17
No, that exactly. That's what Elizabeth Faulkner
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and Michael Gilota and and Shannon T Bay and myself, you
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know, we're very shocked about it because when we landed,
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Elizabeth was expecting that in fact, we will smell everything
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vanilla. They will be spa with smell of
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vanilla. They, you know, or like you walk
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the street in Paris, you have like the smell of the
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boulangerie and the croissant. So she was expecting all of
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this. There's none of that.
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And so then we traveled to the little triangle.
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It's called the triangle at the gold triangle of, of Vanilla
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northeast part of the island. We met with the farmers.
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We we have conversation with them and Elizabeth asked So what
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do you do with vanilla? And he looked at us if we had
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like 3 heads and he said selling nothing exactly.
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It's money. He said it's money.
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So 99% of the production is exported.
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And they absolutely do not use it.
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It's not part of their culture, you know, and it's not.
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Part of their culture. Not at all, no, because it is a
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lot of those in, let's say product has been brought to the
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island during the time of, you know, being a colony.
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And, you know, unfortunately a lot of people have been used for
13:41
their, you know, the fact it was a cheap workforce and yeah, so
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everything is sported. So you, you start seeing some of
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the new chefs and the new culinary faces of, in the
13:56
capital that are integrating those great ingredients, you
14:00
know, in their cooking. So you start seeing, you know,
14:03
vanilla in sauces or, you know, or in ragu or, you know, that
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type of things. And of course in desserts.
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So, and as well the pink peppercorn and you know, and and
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the the white black pepper that you see.
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I was not expecting that. I was expecting that.
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That's why I was smiling. So I.
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Was thinking about this while I was when we were getting ready
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to do the podcast. I was thinking like what could I
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put with vanilla is like in my mind.
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I don't know why my mind immediately went to risotto.
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It's like a savory application with vanilla.
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I think in risotto would be nice.
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I have a friend of mine who he's studied as a chef and now he
14:39
works in the flavor industry and he, you know, he likes to cook.
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And every time I come to his home, he is, you know, he has
14:48
always like new recipes and so on.
14:49
And he is, he puts always, he puts always like vanilla, you
14:53
know, in, in cunary preparations or so.
14:57
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not that uncommon,
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I think, but it isn't. It isn't very common.
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Kitchens are brutal right now. Everyone knows it, fewer people
15:06
on the line, margins tighter than ever, and somehow the
15:09
expectations keep going up. There's just no room to miss
15:12
anymore. I was talking to a chef recently
15:14
who said the biggest stress wasn't the volume, it was the
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mental load. Babysitting, food, timing,
15:19
everything perfectly, trying to be everywhere at once.
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And that's where equipment matters more than people want to
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admit. Rationals.
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Technology comes up a lot in those conversations.
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The Icon B Pro, the Ivario Pro overnight roast that don't need
15:33
to be checked, custom programs for all your recipes,
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Consistency without hovering completely automated cleaning,
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monitoring everything from your phone, The list goes on.
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And what really buys you the headspace?
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Less standing over pans and more time to leave the kitchen
15:48
instead of constantly putting out tiny fires.
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When you're down to cook, When the prep list is rough, when the
15:53
production ramps up. Think rational.
15:55
Let's talk about your process for writing, if you don't mind.
15:59
As I was flipping through the book and I'm reading a couple of
16:00
pages, I, there's something that I picked up not just in this
16:05
book, but also in the previous one, but more because I've read
16:07
this more recently. And something that I picked up
16:10
is that when you write, it's very good.
16:16
It's very good. And, and because I write also,
16:19
if you read anything that I write, it sounds like me.
16:22
It sounds like how I talk. Also, this is very interesting
16:26
because I'm reading this is like.
16:27
It's almost like you go into a different character.
16:29
Yeah, and, and, and obviously when I write and especially
16:34
that, you know, English is not my mother language.
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So I, you know, I, I have to, I spend more time, you know, I, I
16:42
focus, you know, I, I try to understand, you know, how I want
16:46
to bring, you know, certain emotions or, and, and, and
16:52
there's, there is like a mix of different source of information
16:59
when I write because I, I, I use usually, I would say basically,
17:06
probably especially for those non fiction book, I, I maybe
17:11
like 3 different things. The first one is that there's a
17:16
lot of conversation that I had with the farmers, with the
17:19
entrepreneurs, with the beekeepers and so on.
17:22
So I went to the island with my recorders and two mics, and I
17:27
conducted interviews with those individuals.
17:30
So I have that as a big part of the content.
17:34
Then I have, you know, my phone when I take a lot of pictures,
17:39
all those pictures, in fact, I've been that you see in the
17:42
book. I've been taken with my iPhone.
17:45
Yeah. And but that that's important
17:48
for me because when I write, I usually put some mood board.
17:54
So let's say I'm going to stop writing like the chapter on
17:58
rice. So I'm going to have like one
18:00
page when I have like all the pictures like related to rice,
18:03
the rice fields, you know, and the people that are working
18:06
feels and you know, and so on. Or some of the dishes that I
18:09
had. And then the other one is that I
18:12
have the, the classic, the old fashioned way where I have my
18:16
notebook and in fact in my pencil.
18:18
And this is where I capture my, you know, what I feel like the
18:25
emotion aspect. You know, when I, I, maybe I am
18:29
on the, the lake, you know, where you have all the sturgeons
18:33
and I, I go on the boat and it's 5:00 in the morning, it's before
18:37
sunrise. And you have all the sound of
18:40
the nature. You have that feeling, you know,
18:42
of the sun rising on that lake. And you discovered like all the
18:47
structure of the Nets, you know, with the, with the sturgeons,
18:51
all of that. It's, you know, I have to write.
18:53
I have to write the way how I feel, you know, because it's
18:57
very difficult if you, you know, when you go back home and then
19:02
you are be on your desk and then you try to, you know, kind of
19:09
relive, you know, those moments. If you don't have it, like from
19:13
the moment you expense them and you know, it's very difficult
19:17
to, to be really truthful to, you know, the way you felt.
19:21
So I, I have those three things and that's how I, you know, I, I
19:25
write. So a lot of chefs want to write
19:29
their first cookbook. A lot of people want to write
19:31
their first cookbook. And I think that's it's
19:33
aspirational for a lot of chefs. I feel like having your own
19:36
cookbook cements your your legacy to a certain extent.
19:40
One of the things that I know, and I've spoken to a lot of
19:42
chefs on the podcast who have cookbooks and it seems to be
19:45
about 5050, if not, it's leaning a little bit more towards self
19:50
or independent publishing versus going the traditional publishing
19:52
route. This is.
19:56
Traditional. Traditional publishing both
19:58
books. Yeah, both books.
19:59
So what is what is the process from going from idea to to, you
20:08
know, for the for the audience that's listening.
20:09
We wanted to coach them through, hey, you want to write your
20:11
first cookbook? Here's some of the steps to get
20:14
a book deal. What does that look like?
20:18
So first of all, you need three years of your life, you know,
20:23
especially for cookbooks, because you know, if you have,
20:27
you have the content, you have the recipes that needs to be
20:30
tested, you know, by usually a third party, all the recipe has
20:36
to be written, you know, the same way.
20:39
And then you have, you know, as well the, all the, the pictures,
20:46
you know, for that are very important new cookbooks.
20:49
So I, I'm not like an experts in the cookbooks.
20:51
But when I tell you if, if you want to go the routes of, you
20:57
know, the traditional publishing, you cannot unless
21:00
you have someone very famous. And then you are going to have
21:02
like a publisher contacting you and say, Hey, Andre, you know,
21:07
we love what you do and so on. And we would love to have, you
21:11
know, you writing cookbooks. So that's one thing.
21:14
But otherwise you cannot contact like a publisher directly
21:21
because they received so many proposals that in fact the you
21:27
have to go through an agent. So that's the the way to go.
21:30
And step one is find. So step one, yeah, step one is
21:33
to find a book agent and and then.
21:36
They're happy for you at that point.
21:38
First you have to pitch a lot of book agents.
21:41
So I have one based in the Savannah for me, and I think
21:47
that's for the that's the same one that I have for the both
21:50
books. And I think I pitched 14 agent
21:56
because of course I'm you know, I'm no one, nobody.
21:59
I don't have a show on TV so. You you have a very successful
22:02
Chef podcast. Yeah, but it's, you know, it's
22:04
it's not enough. So so the idea is that so I
22:08
pitched 14 two where interested in their concept.
22:13
One wanted to represent me the way it was.
22:15
The second one in fact challenged me, which I and I
22:19
went with her because I said the first time I I write a book and,
22:22
you know, I probably need to improve, you know, in the in the
22:25
process and so on and I'm going to learn something.
22:28
So so yeah. So then after that, that agent,
22:31
when the agent decides to, you know, we present to you.
22:35
So first she or he is going to help you make the book better.
22:42
And then because it's nonfiction, usually what they do
22:45
is that you have to build with them like a book proposal where
22:49
you need to have a few chapters already put together.
22:54
And then it's all about, you know, what's the concept?
22:57
You know, what is the target audience?
23:00
Obviously for Coolbook it's you know, with foodies and and chefs
23:04
and then when that is done and finalized with the agent, they
23:09
will help you finalize it. Then they take it and pitch it
23:12
to, you know, several mini publishers.
23:17
Did you use the same publisher for both?
23:18
Books No. Different publisher. 2 different
23:20
publishers. Quick question because you have
23:21
recipes in here too. Even though it's not a cookbook,
23:24
there are recipes in here. It's about 20.
23:26
And for those, did you have to have a recipe tester that you
23:29
had to send? Everything to no, no, I didn't,
23:31
I didn't do that. What I did yeah, is in fact,
23:35
first I'm another chef. So I, I reach out to so the chef
23:41
that we're with me. So there's it is there's
23:43
Elizabeth Faulkner recipe on vanilla, Michael Gilota, Shannon
23:47
T base cocktail. And then I, I ask chefs from
23:53
Madagascar to give me your recipes and as well chef from
23:56
France, because, you know, there's still that connection
23:59
that exists between Madagascar and France.
24:01
So there's a lot of French chefs that are using the ingredients
24:05
from the island. Wow.
24:07
What, where is what is the, the history, the historical
24:10
connection between Madagascar and France?
24:12
And, and now that you said that and I, I don't know why I never
24:14
put two and two together, but yeah, you're talking about the
24:16
ingredients. And these ingredients are very
24:18
prevalent in in French cooking. So it it was, it was a French
24:22
colony until 1960, the way they became independent.
24:27
So it was during, I don't know if you know anything about the
24:30
French history, but it's general the goal who is was, you know,
24:35
the president at the time. There was a lot of different
24:38
colonies, you know, in connected to France and a lot of them
24:43
wanted to become independent. So in 1960s they said OK, you
24:47
are, you're independent and France left.
24:50
How long did it take you to write this?
24:51
22 months. How much time?
24:54
Like the first. One What was the shortest amount
24:56
of time and what was the longest amount of time you spent on it
24:59
in a day? Oh, so that's, that's a very
25:03
good question. In fact, because everyone has a
25:06
process. I, I read a lot of advice from a
25:12
lot of coaches and all the authors that said you have to
25:17
write everyday. I cannot.
25:19
So I'm, I'm in charge of marketing for, for a global
25:22
company manufacturing, you know, food ingredients.
25:25
And for me, it's very difficult at the end of the day to switch
25:29
to creative writing after my whole day, you know, work or
25:32
travelling and so on. So I have learned from the first
25:35
book that's the best process for me is what I called 3.
25:41
It's a 3 six process, which is I take 3 days like a usually a
25:47
long weekend and then I will write 6 hours.
25:52
You know, I, I'm an early bird. So I will start at 5:00 AM and
25:56
then around 11, I will finish writing.
26:00
I will explore because I'm a foodie.
26:02
So I will explore wherever I am. I rent usually in Airbnb and
26:06
then I go to a brewery, to a restaurant, to a coffee shop and
26:11
so on. I'll do a little bit of hiking,
26:13
go back to the, to the Airbnb and I, I revise, you know,
26:17
whatever I've written. And I do that three days, you
26:20
know, in a row and you know, on a regular basis.
26:22
And that's the best way. That's why it took me 22 months
26:25
to write the manuscript. And we have very different
26:29
processes. I'm, I, I have to create a
26:31
little bit of pressure for myself.
26:33
I, I think it's all the years of being a chef.
26:36
I actually perform better when there's a, and I hate to say
26:38
that I do perform better when there's stress.
26:40
So I sometimes have to introduce fake stress.
26:44
So I will announce things even though I haven't gotten to, to
26:48
work on it. I'll tell people that like
26:49
they'll say, how soon do you need?
26:50
I was like, they give me a date and I'll I'll, I'll, I'll hit
26:53
the deadline knowing full well that I haven't even sure.
26:57
And, and I think I was talking to her yesterday when I was
26:59
telling you for the next one. I'm writing a book right now and
27:03
I've only written 1 chapter. So for people that don't know
27:07
and. When is the deadline?
27:09
It's a it's a very, very soon, right?
27:11
I've only written 1 chapter of the 10 and I have a little bit
27:17
over a week to have it done. Oh, good luck.
27:19
Yeah, but that's what you don't know about me is is I will
27:22
figure it out because I'm the type of person that I'll wait
27:25
till the last minute. Oh boy.
27:26
And then I will drink a lot of caffeine and then I will get it
27:30
done. And then with no sleep.
27:31
With no sleep, right, I just, I just procrastinate.
27:34
But that's my writing process. But I also, I probably said this
27:38
before on the podcast, I, I talk, so I turn on the recorder
27:41
and then I talk and then the words show up on the computer.
27:45
So that's a little bit easier and then it's easier for me to.
27:48
And for me, it's like I typed everything and I type whatever.
27:51
It doesn't matter the quality or whatever.
27:54
And I've learned with the first book that in fact, you know why
28:00
that's the for me, like the, the white page, you know, the crisis
28:04
of the white, all the tension of the white page and so on.
28:06
It's like a cover myth. Because what I do is I, I really
28:09
structure, you know, I know the structure of the book.
28:13
I know the chapter. I know, you know, the major,
28:16
let's say ideas in the chapter and then whatever, it's like,
28:20
you know, 5:00 in the morning and I start writing.
28:22
I'm going to start whoever. So we could, I can start in like
28:26
the middle of the chapter #5 for instance.
28:29
And then the next day I will do the introduction or, you know,
28:32
and I, I will build like my puzzle, you know, like this.
28:36
Yeah, it's it's so funny writing process is so different for for
28:39
everybody. And when we were talking about
28:41
earlier, how when I read yours, I say, wow, this tone is very
28:44
different from the conversations that we have in real life.
28:47
Yeah, right. We're mine.
28:49
You can see why I sound because I'm.
28:51
I'm talking. Sure, right.
28:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of my books sound like
28:55
I'm having a conversation because I am.
28:57
I'm having a conversation with the computer.
28:58
That's reported it and I, I love maybe it comes as well from we
29:03
have a very different, you know, obviously background and
29:06
education and so on. So coming from France, there's a
29:09
lot of, you know, French classes with classic literature and so
29:14
on. So I, I love like setting a
29:18
stage, you know, and talking about like the surrounding the
29:22
environments. I think it's important as well
29:24
for a book like this where I know that most of the people who
29:27
are going to read it, we never had the chance to come to go do
29:30
the island and the landscapes are so diverse and and wonderful
29:37
is that I want to make sure that the people come with me on the
29:40
island while writing the book. So they need to experience, you
29:43
know those. I, I forget that you're from
29:45
France because you're, you have a very thick New Jersey accent.
29:48
No, go on. I forget that I have a question
29:53
of you. Do you want me to say coffee?
29:56
I can talk about the Turnpike, you know, and.
29:59
All of that. Let me ask you a question.
30:01
Sopranos, my favorite show. Yeah, I know.
30:04
Honestly, The Sopranos is my favorite show of all time.
30:07
I remember some of our conversations all time.
30:09
That's that's my favorite show. You know how to cook.
30:12
That's not the problem. The problem is getting your team
30:15
to do what you want when you want it.
30:17
That's leadership. My book, Culinary Leadership
30:20
Fundamentals, breaks down exactly how to run a kitchen
30:22
without losing your mind. Stop yelling.
30:24
Start leading. Get the book at Chefs psa.com.
30:26
So what was your first experience and what brought you
30:29
to the United States for your first experience?
30:32
Yeah. In fact, it's, it's funny story.
30:34
It's, I think it was back in 1998 and I did an internship in
30:42
Wisconsin, Waukesha between Milwaukee and and Madison.
30:46
That was a fantastic experience. But you know, the, the story
30:52
that took place that was that really amazing is that I was
30:56
supposed at the end of my studies to be drafted for
31:00
military service in France because it was still mandatory
31:04
at that time. It's not the case anymore.
31:06
Even I think now the President Macron wants to bring it back.
31:11
And so I, I pushed that military service at the end of my studies
31:17
that you can, you know, you could do that.
31:20
And So what happened is that you, you have to do the health
31:25
check and everything, you know, before getting drafted.
31:29
So I had this opportunity at the same time to come to United
31:34
States and the person who was in charge and giving me that
31:41
opportunity said, you know, this is now that you have the
31:43
opportunity because it's in the budget, you know, for that
31:46
company to make it happen next year.
31:49
It would probably not going to be the case.
31:51
And I'm like, yeah, but I'm probably going to have to go to
31:54
military service. I said OK, man, you know, good
31:57
luck. So I went to the health check
32:02
and I still remember there's a lot of element in that story.
32:07
You asked for it, but it's a long 1.
32:08
So I, I drove to my brother and sister-in-law for a weekend and
32:16
since important story and I, my sister-in-law decided to to say,
32:22
OK, take the car to get to, you know the like the the place
32:28
where you know where they do the hell check.
32:30
It's easy. It's very close by and so I went
32:34
there. There's a long line.
32:36
We are all hoping that we will not get drafted.
32:39
I had my folder. I had some issue with my eyes.
32:42
So I said maybe it's, you know, strong enough for for me to
32:46
avoid it. And then there's, I still
32:51
remember there was a huge staircase of this old house.
32:55
And there's one guy on top of the staircase is an official.
33:00
He is, you know, with his uniform.
33:02
And he is like, really literally like screaming down the
33:06
staircase. There's all the kids, you know,
33:08
me and all the others. Maybe we have 200.
33:11
And he said, is anyone, you know, have a car here?
33:14
Does anyone have a car? This is very important.
33:17
And I'm not I'm not going to say anything.
33:20
I'm not going to stand up. And, you know, and then he asked
33:23
again, he said this is really important.
33:26
And like, OK, I raised my hand and said I have a car.
33:29
So I'm the only one among all those 200 kids and said, OK, see
33:33
me at the end. So I go through the whole steps
33:36
of, you know, getting the the health check, you know, the
33:39
X-ray for the lungs, you know, and blah, blah, blah.
33:42
And I arrive at the eyes exam and the doctor that is there
33:48
said, hey, man, I'm sorry, but it's not enough.
33:51
You know what you have, you will have to get your military
33:54
service. And I'm not sure because that's
33:56
my opportunity to go to the US that I can see already, you
34:00
know, going away. And then that guy that, you
34:04
know, asked about the car entered the room and he said,
34:07
OK, you know what's going on? What's the situation with this
34:10
guy? So the other one explained.
34:13
He said, OK, come with me. So I exit that room.
34:16
Now we are in the hallway. There's doors, you know, on both
34:19
side. And it says doctor, doctor, you
34:21
know, I just, you know, on each door.
34:23
So I'm like, oh shit, that's the guy who is going to probably
34:27
decide of my fate. So sitting in this in his office
34:33
and say, OK, explain to me what's going on.
34:36
And you know, I had like few seconds like to think about it.
34:40
And I'm like, OK, he's the doctor.
34:42
He has been, you know, he has done, you know, college and, you
34:46
know, medical studies and so on. So maybe you will understand.
34:49
So I decided to tell the truth and I said, OK, I have an
34:52
opportunity. I can go to the US for a year.
34:57
It's going to change competing my life, my entire career.
35:01
This is now or never. So if I do not do the military
35:05
service, then I can go to the US.
35:08
And I'm not joking. The the doctor look at me and he
35:13
said, OK, I have to catch a train to see my fiance, you
35:19
know, in Grenald and he was catching a train when in fact in
35:23
the town where my brother lives. And he said my train is, I of
35:27
course don't remember the time, but it's a, you know, it is in
35:30
whatever are you going to be able to drive me and I can catch
35:35
my train. I'm like, I can promise you
35:37
you're going to catch your train.
35:38
And the guy said OK, what a good.
35:42
Story. That's a good story.
35:43
It's a long 1 though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:45
But that's how you then it and that guy, unfortunately, you
35:48
know the why. The big, the maybe the biggest
35:51
drug rights that I have is that I never ask his name and I never
35:57
have the chance to say thank you.
35:58
He's listening. Yeah, he'll, he'll know.
36:00
Of course he's listening to shit.
36:02
He's saying of course, why not? Why He's he's French.
36:05
I wanna change my life. I wanna.
36:07
Ask you about about your podcast.
36:10
Yes. So flavors are known for people
36:12
that don't know. And by the way, I think I've
36:13
been a guest four times. Oh yeah, yeah, I think so.
36:17
Yeah, I think 3 or 4I. Remember, yeah, I mean, we did
36:19
the Group 1. Yeah, you did the leadership one
36:21
the. Leadership one.
36:22
Well, anyway. People, I think there was a,
36:24
there was a, there was A and you and and you were first on your
36:27
own as a. Guest yeah, yeah.
36:29
So anyway. I seem to remember people should
36:31
listen to meeting you for the first time.
36:32
Flavors and I was I was very. Impressed.
36:34
I'll tell you it's it's interesting because I've gone
36:36
back and listened to it. Yeah.
36:38
And I was still a chef. And so if you listen to that
36:41
versus now you say, who's that guy?
36:45
He sounds like an asshole. Why no, no, just we had a
36:49
fantastic. Conversation it was, but I was
36:50
just to. Remember the first conversation?
36:52
You and I and you were so nice. Yeah, I, I still remember.
36:56
No, you reached out to me because I think we had, I had
37:00
like a few, I had like maybe episodes on the podcast of 10.
37:04
And then suddenly on my Instagram, your name pop up and
37:09
you said, oh, by the way, I love your podcast.
37:11
And I said, oh, I'm going to come to Austin.
37:13
So I said, hey, come and see me. And we had a fantastic
37:16
conversation. Yeah, one of the things that.
37:20
Do you know that he was eight years ago?
37:22
Wow. Yeah, well, when I listen to
37:23
that podcast now, if I go back and listen to that, I'm still a
37:26
chef. And so the way that I speak, the
37:28
intensity that I have is much different than the way I speak
37:30
now. Because when I listen to it, I'm
37:31
like, wow, who's that person? It's just, it's a it's a
37:34
different version of me because I was still in it.
37:37
And it's interesting for me to listen to old episodes like
37:40
that. But anyway, so people should go
37:41
back and listen to flavors alone, listen to my episodes on
37:44
there. But one of the things that I
37:47
think you have a very unique perspective because you are not
37:51
a chef, but you talk to like, like in my life, I talk to chefs
37:55
all day, some of the best. So do you.
38:00
And you've been able to develop a very unique perspective of
38:04
what chefs, what makes chefs tick.
38:06
And one of the interesting things about your podcast is
38:09
it's very philosophy driven. It is inspiration driven, it's
38:16
technique driven. And so you get into the minutiae
38:19
of the cooking and the flavors and the creative process and all
38:24
those things when you think about that, because you've had
38:26
the opportunity to speak to so many chefs.
38:29
Mm hmm yeah I have 205 or 6 episodes now.
38:33
Wow, cuz I do every other week. Yeah.
38:35
So, so 205 episodes and let's assume that's over 150 chefs
38:39
because I'm sure you've had a couple of on like myself.
38:41
Multiple times, yeah, yeah. What is the one thing that you
38:45
notice that great chefs have in common?
38:50
Is there something that you picked up that say, hey, I
38:52
noticed that a lot of the greats seem to do this Or what are what
38:55
are some of the commonalities that you see across the board?
38:58
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
38:59
So. And I think that's the first
39:03
point you had the one mentioning to me, it was the first time we
39:08
met and that was something that came back in everything you are
39:12
saying, it was about discipline. So I think that's what I've seen
39:19
from all the great chefs that I talk to.
39:22
It's all about owning and developing your craft and having
39:27
the discipline, you know, of doing it.
39:30
And I think this is very important, especially since the
39:34
after COVID time where in fact, I've heard a lot of the chefs
39:40
finding that it was sometime challenging with a newer
39:44
generation where they felt that, you know, that focus off owning
39:52
your or developing your skills and your craft was not as maybe
39:56
strong as what it used to be. I'm not saying I don't want to
40:00
generalize because of course, of course there's going to be
40:02
plenty of individuals that is still have like that's passion,
40:06
you know for it, but that was so that was one big element.
40:11
And and when they when you're when you're referencing that,
40:13
are the chefs saying that there's a distinct before and
40:15
after COVID and they use COVID as like the, the, the specific
40:19
point in time reference point? Yeah, they have seen a lot of,
40:23
so they have seen a lot of people that left that industry,
40:26
you know at that time and never came back to it.
40:29
But as well, I think this is a mixed between the after COVID
40:34
and as well like the Gen. Z generation, you know as we
40:38
call them or like the younger millennials or Gen.
40:42
Z. So where the feels that it's in
40:47
inheritance of the the culture of the cooking shows and the
40:52
competition shows, where in fact there is a whole generation of
40:56
individuals that look at the shows on TV and you know, the
41:01
stardom, you know, from chefs and said, oh, OK, that's what I
41:05
want to be and the ideas. And when they and, and you can
41:09
do that, I think, you know, you could be in chef on TV.
41:12
And but then a lot of them are applying this into the
41:17
day-to-day life of a chef at the restaurant.
41:21
And it's really different in the fact that they have to go
41:24
through the different stations and learn and craft and, you
41:27
know, and they're maybe not getting to like the level all as
41:36
fast as they would like to and. What do you, what do you notice
41:41
in, in terms of because you have your, your finger on the pulse,
41:45
not just when with speaking with chefs, but also you travel a lot
41:48
and you eat at a lot of their restaurants as well.
41:51
You travel and dine way more than I do You, you, you truly
41:56
do. And I'm not.
41:57
I'm not. Sure.
41:57
I, I, I was, you know, for the first book, when I wrote the
42:01
first book, I was trying to have a number and so on.
42:04
And, and I think I do between 60 to 80 tasting a year.
42:10
Wow. So yeah.
42:12
What do you what do you notice? Like if you had to, if you had
42:15
to guess, what do you notice that seems to be on the horizon
42:18
with with, with trend or with cuisine that seems to be really
42:22
emerging and you think it's going to probably take hold here
42:26
strongly across the country soon.
42:28
Is there anything that you see? I don't, I don't know if I, you
42:33
know, in fact, that's something interesting for me because
42:39
that's a question that usually I ask a lot of the chefs,
42:42
especially when I have the panel like, you know, the one you and
42:45
I did with some other chefs in Austin.
42:48
And I do about 5 or 6 panel a year, panels a year.
42:53
And I always talk about trends and it's we as people that works
43:02
in the industry, the food and the beverage industry.
43:04
We are looking at you guys at Chefs Mixologist that are in
43:10
fact for us creating those trends because those elements
43:15
are going to be amplified by the media and then maybe we'll end
43:18
up in food service or in in retail later.
43:21
But when I talked to the chef and I asked them the question,
43:24
they hate that questions. They for them, they are not
43:28
really into trends, but what they are doing is.
43:32
That they're not, but they are. I can tell you that the the
43:35
chefs are not, but they are. They're acting.
43:36
They're they're saying they're not, but they're acting like
43:38
they are. I I think that again, back to
43:42
your question about what do you find like the common points of
43:47
the, the chefs that are really great chefs, you know, that you
43:51
talk to. And I think those ones, they are
43:54
more cooking from their roots and their culture and then yes,
44:00
it might become a trend after, but they are not going into.
44:04
I see what you. Say that approach having trend
44:07
in mind, but you have other I see as well other chefs that
44:11
says, oh, you know, we follow this one and this one and this
44:14
one on social media because now it's a source of, you know, of
44:17
inspiration and so on. So they are looking at you know
44:21
trends and I'm sure you know some of those trends are going
44:23
to influence them. But I, I see those two
44:26
different. I would say path, you know, when
44:30
I, I talk to the chefs around the country and I like the idea
44:35
of, you know, having chefs that are really expressing their
44:41
background, their roots, you know, through their, through
44:44
their cooking. That could be, I don't like the
44:47
word authentic because it's, you know, it's authentic to whatever
44:53
they have experience to someone. But, but the idea is that they
44:57
have they, they, they, if they are like the son of an
45:02
immigrant, for instance, or second generation and so on,
45:05
then there's going to be some roots, but as well that are
45:08
going to be mixed and connected with their own experience of
45:14
like growing up, you know, here in, you know, in the US.
45:18
So I think that's that's the element that I'm really
45:20
interested in. And you have an interesting job
45:22
and I don't want to get into what your day job is, but but
45:26
but you have a very interesting job where you are immersed in
45:29
flavors still, not just flavors unknown with the podcast and not
45:34
just with Taste of Madagascar, but also in your day job,
45:37
you're, you're heavily involved with with flavors and creating,
45:42
creating new flavors. From your own perspective, where
45:47
do you see some new flavors emerging that maybe we're not
45:50
thinking about that aren't so common?
45:52
I mean, maybe obviously some chefs out there thinking about
45:55
them, but but you do have your finger on the pulse because
45:58
you're dining out, you're eating, and you're also in the
45:59
creative world of it. What do you see emerging right
46:04
now? So if we are talking about
46:06
cunery, because trans may vary and are different from you know
46:11
if we are talking beverage, if we are talking cunery, I mean
46:15
the big things and it's been for a while, but the big things are
46:18
global influences. That's what you know that are
46:21
driving really like what you know new things that you see you
46:25
know on the market. So you are what I think that's
46:30
people that's realize now that you cannot talk about Indian
46:36
cuisine or you cannot talk about Mexican cuisine or you cannot
46:39
talk about French cuisine and so on is that this is each country
46:44
are very complex. There's like so many variation
46:49
linked to the geography and the regions you know within.
46:53
So now what I see is, in fact, especially the younger
46:57
generation. So the Gen.
46:59
Z and the younger millennials are really interesting in the
47:03
authentic storytelling and the idea of things that are coming
47:09
from the different regions. So we are not talking about
47:12
Mexican cuisine, but we are talking about Oaxaca, we are
47:15
talking about Puebla, we are talking.
47:17
So that's what really we see at the moment.
47:20
Or Western African cuisine that are coming or you know.
47:24
And you, by the way, for people that don't know, you pointed
47:25
this out to me way before this conversation.
47:28
I mean, I'm thinking back maybe two years ago where we were
47:31
having a similar conversation, not on a podcast, just in person
47:34
at dinner, probably where we were talking about, I think it
47:36
was it masala Mais. They were saying, hey, look at
47:39
me, Masala. Mais yeah, you're looking.
47:40
The city, yeah, You look at these restaurants, you were you
47:43
were pointing me in that direction to say hey.
47:45
And. I you should see what they're
47:46
doing. And I can, I can, I can tell you
47:48
that still Mexico City for me, it's probably the Cunari
47:52
destination in the Americas. You know, at the moment that I
47:56
will, you know, I, I in fact, I'm going to take a group of 40
47:59
of our customers, you know, end of April, you know, there
48:02
because this is for me where we have the best example of global
48:10
influences on traditional ingredients.
48:13
So, you know, on the, the corn, you know, on the Chile, on the
48:18
mezcal, on the, you know, that really ingredients coming from,
48:23
from Mexico. And do you have so many chefs
48:29
that are bringing, you know, their outside viewpoints, you
48:34
know, coming from, you know, a different countries being one
48:37
because he comes originally from India through Africa and married
48:42
Mexican. So.
48:44
So he has all the three influences of, you know, the way
48:47
he cooks. The idea of using Mexican and
48:51
Indian or other Eastern western flavors together is real.
48:57
My friend Rishi has a really phenomenal restaurant in Chicago
49:00
where he he he's, he's trained through Rick Bayless and that
49:05
system of making really exceptional Mexican food, but
49:08
he's now putting his personality on it.
49:10
Fingerprints on it. Yeah, his fingerprints on it.
49:12
So you're starting to see that a lot more.
49:14
And it's delicious because you're unlocking.
49:17
I mean, all food. Is that right?
49:20
It's just, it's just taking time.
49:23
It's just taking time now as the world has become more flat, you
49:25
could see things you know in real time develop.
49:28
Don't say the world is flat, please.
49:30
You know what I mean? I know.
49:31
It was so funny. I mean that that we're able to
49:35
know what's going on on the other side of the world at at
49:38
any moment. Yeah, Shit, we're good.
49:44
Here we go. There's a big there's a big ice
49:46
wall in Antarctica too, right. So here we go.
49:49
We're going to turn into that podcast before you know it.
49:51
But but all joking aside is you you see the ability to now to to
49:56
get trained in certain cuisines and get really familiar with it.
50:00
But then when the time comes for you to stand on your own 2 feet,
50:02
then you can start incorporating all these all.
50:05
These I think it's all about storytelling and and if the
50:09
especially for the new generation, if the the I
50:14
understand and the feel that authenticity coming from that
50:17
storytelling from the chef, I think that's then that's, you
50:21
know, sometimes. The story tastes like shit.
50:26
OK, OK, it's. Like, hey, that's a.
50:29
Great story. It tastes terrible, but good
50:31
story. That's correct.
50:34
From all the chefs that you've spoken to, you've spoken to a
50:36
lot. Is there any right now that you
50:37
feel maybe because you've spoken to them or you've also spoken to
50:41
them and try their food that aren't household names yet, but
50:44
you feel like, OK, this is these are some to watch?
50:50
So I I really I mean, because I know them for a long time and I
50:56
just came from DC and my friend Matt Conroy and his wife,
51:06
Isabelle Kos are for me a fantastic in fact couple
51:13
cooking. She's a best three chef.
51:16
She has done, she was at cost me before in New York.
51:19
He was, I met him when he was at Virginia after he went to
51:23
Oxomoco in Brooklyn. Now both of them moved to
51:26
Washington, DC and they have 3 restaurants now.
51:30
They have Lutest, they have Pasquale, which is Mexican and
51:35
then they have a Maison which is kind of a wine bar, but you know
51:40
with, with food as well. I think that's they they, they
51:44
do a fantastic job. The the foodies is amazing.
51:48
Yeah. So I, I, I, I really love those.
51:52
In fact, there's another couple that I discovered on in Hawaii.
51:58
I have to take you to Hawaii once you have to come on.
52:00
Absolutely. When I was a.
52:01
Kid, I know, I remember that, but you have to go back now.
52:04
So there is a. Where'd you go to Hawaii?
52:05
Which island? I went to, you know, one several
52:09
times. So I went to all the islands.
52:10
My favorite, it's Kauai, but you know, because I love hiking and
52:15
so on, but it's not a lot of restaurant there.
52:17
If you really want to taste like restaurant, it's either
52:21
Honolulu, you know, on Oahu or, you know, Maui.
52:26
But the there's a couple and I have to remember their names,
52:32
but the restaurants MW because that's their that's their
52:38
initials. And I know I'm not going to
52:41
remember their names now. It's UL car.
52:46
Yeah, that's their last name. And and the and again, they do a
52:52
fantastic food. Michelle Michelle, she's the
52:55
pastry chef and and he's the chef and they both of them are
53:01
fantastic way of, you know, like putting the lights on like local
53:12
ingredients and, and creating like amazing dishes and amazing
53:17
dessert. So that's another place that so
53:19
MW restaurant in Honolulu if you're going to Hawaii.
53:22
What, what? What is the best meal that
53:24
you've had in the last year or so in your travels?
53:29
I guess I'm good. You're going to get in trouble.
53:31
That's a tough. One, it's a tough one, but is
53:33
there one that really stands out?
53:35
Now it's very difficult for me to answer.
53:38
Do you prefer tasting menus or Ala carte?
53:42
Do you want to go into the restaurant and yeah, you know I
53:44
be in control, or do you want the chef to be in control?
53:46
Oh, I, I. If the chef wants to be in
53:49
control, then I I I. I not, not because it's you, but
53:52
because that's the style of restaurant, meaning the chef's
53:54
in control, meaning this is all you're getting.
53:56
That's it. Or do you prefer like?
53:57
No, this is what I want. So I mean, if I have, if I have
54:02
the possibility where the chef is, you know, putting together
54:06
his selection and so on and do that.
54:08
But otherwise, you know, I like to look at the menu because I, I
54:12
always want to pick the things that, you know, intrigue me
54:16
because there's something that I, I, I'm not the kind of person
54:19
that go back and, and reorder the same thing in it happens.
54:23
But I, I'm going always to look at, oh, that ingredients I do
54:28
not know or Oh my gosh, he is associating the, or she's
54:32
associating this and this, I never seen this.
54:34
I I have to try this or there's like, yeah, there's special
54:39
sauce, you know, that I'm intrigued.
54:42
But if there is scallops or duck or foie gras, that would be my
54:48
choice, yeah. Do do you prefer your foie gras
54:51
seared or Torchol? Both, but it depends on the
54:55
occasions and and by the way, talking about this and you asked
54:59
me one of my great, great experience.
55:02
It was not in the US, it was in Mexico City.
55:04
It was in January this year. It is at a food truck.
55:10
A chef decided, well known chef decided not to do a brick and
55:14
mortar, but starts with a, you know, a food truck.
55:17
And he has on the secret menu Taco with guava mole with the
55:26
sea at Quagga on top. And I can tell you that I've
55:29
been there twice during my week. That sounds amazing.
55:33
It was amazing. Guava mole Guava's such an also
55:38
underrated fragrant. It is a trendy 1.
55:41
So you ask me, what's trending? Yeah, Guava is.
55:44
I didn't know Guava was trending.
55:45
Yeah, Guava is trending and then the other one which is trending.
55:48
I've seen it in my. Shampoo.
55:49
You know, pendant. Guava's in my shampoo, I think
55:54
with coconuts. That's so funny, but the.
56:00
Yeah, so Panden actually I was talking about on the on the most
56:03
recent episode that actually came out today, we're talking
56:07
about Panden. I I love Panden.
56:09
Also very, very underrated. I mean, it's it, it is coming.
56:14
It's, it's becoming, it's not yet mainstream, but it's, it's,
56:17
it's really. It's next.
56:18
It's about to have its moment, Absolutely.
56:22
So going back to the amount of chefs that you've spoken to, I'm
56:25
just curious without naming any names, but maybe finding ideas
56:31
or or seeing patterns. I'm sure a lot of the chefs
56:35
because when did you start the podcast?
56:37
2018 on September. So since 2018, you've you've had
56:42
a lot of time to speak with chefs in process and and not
56:44
just the on air conversations, the off.
56:46
Air and I'm getting old, you know, I forgot the things.
56:48
But do you? I'm sure because of that timing,
56:51
you've seen a lot the rise and fall of some some chefs, you
56:53
know, some chefs have probably closed restaurants and moved on.
56:56
Or maybe they were. Especially because you have
56:59
pandemic. Pandemic, right?
57:00
Yeah, sure, maybe. Maybe a chef was very hot for a
57:02
moment and maybe they're not as hot anymore.
57:05
And so this is maybe a difficult question to ask, but I would
57:08
ask, is there something that you notice when you say, oh, chef,
57:15
you might want to, you might be headed for do you notice?
57:19
Something now I, I don't think, I, I don't think I have the
57:23
expertise that you have, you know, because you've been
57:26
through, you know, all the different scenarios because, you
57:31
know, we, you shared a lot of, you know, part of your life's a
57:34
professional life. So I don't have, I'm not a chef.
57:38
So I'm, I'm always looking at it from an outside view of someone
57:43
who is passionate about, you know, food and passionate about
57:47
and intrigued and as well very humble and appreciate like the
57:55
ton of work that exists, you know, in that profession that
57:58
usually people don't really realize.
58:01
So I'm, I'm looking at it that, so I it's very difficult for me
58:04
to put like any judgement call because I don't think I have the
58:10
expertise. You're you're walking the
58:11
razor's edge on a lot of these questions.
58:13
No, not a lot. OK, so I'm going to ask you a
58:17
very tough one. Here's a very tough one.
58:18
What is the best Food City in in the United States right now?
58:21
Best Food City? And don't say, don't say New
58:23
Jersey. No, because that's where you
58:26
live. No, I wouldn't.
58:28
No, I I think I am. I am in it.
58:31
I think like every time a lot of people ask me questions.
58:35
So I always start with Austin. Really.
58:37
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Austin.
58:39
You're not just saying that because we're here, no.
58:41
No, no, no, no, no. I always say Austin first, then
58:44
I'm going to say probably Portland and Seattle.
58:49
It's pretty good. Good.
58:51
I would say Nashville. Now maybe I will not have
58:54
mentioned Nashville 20 years ago, but now I think fantastic.
59:00
Obviously LA because there's a lot of, you know, LA, New York
59:04
because you, you know, there's so, so many new, you know,
59:09
restaurants opening and closing, of course, but and another one
59:14
that I really liked spending time like more.
59:18
It's Miami. I think there's some good stuff
59:20
in Miami. I, I think if, if I was to make
59:24
a prediction, I think the two cities that will maybe 3, but
59:29
the 2 for sure that I think will emerge.
59:31
But it has more to do with, I would maybe say the, the
59:34
economics, but also the social influence, because social
59:40
influence also plays a big part of creating the food scene.
59:43
If you have influencers and you know, it's gonna, it's gonna
59:46
affect the amount of attention that goes there.
59:49
And then of course the dining community that goes on the, I, I
59:52
think if I would say 2 cities, it's Austin and Miami right now
59:54
that I think are going to really emerge because of the amount of
59:58
content creators in those markets.
1:00:01
Miami having a heavy presence of content creation and, and, and
1:00:04
nightlife, you're going to see more of their food just just
1:00:08
because of that reason alone. Same thing with Austin.
1:00:09
You have a lot of podcasts and content creators in Austin, so
1:00:12
you're going to see a lot of Austin food.
1:00:15
The third city, I'd say, is Nashville's.
1:00:17
Yeah, yeah, Nashville, I like, I like Nashville.
1:00:19
So you know, if if someone, you know, comes to the US and and
1:00:23
say, hey, where should I go? I always, you know, I have, I
1:00:27
mean the one I mentioned, but you know, I would say anyhow,
1:00:30
you will go to LA and you're going to go to New York.
1:00:32
So, but if you want to go outside of it, that's you know.
1:00:36
But I but I feel like New York, LA and Chicago are always in the
1:00:40
conversation. I I assume they're always in the
1:00:42
conversation? Too.
1:00:43
You know what? And I am going to make some
1:00:45
enemies here. So sorry guys, but I'm for me,
1:00:49
Chicago is like, oh, no, it's, it's OK.
1:00:54
It's yeah, I mean, there's some great restaurants and so on
1:00:57
there. But but if I have to, let's see
1:01:00
if tomorrow you said, OK, we can transport ourself and then we go
1:01:04
somewhere for for dinner. I, I very rarely.
1:01:07
I'm going to be Chicago. Really.
1:01:09
Yeah. I like Chicago.
1:01:12
I was just there. It was great.
1:01:13
Yeah, I mean, yeah, probably, maybe I, I didn't go to I, I
1:01:17
don't know. Yeah, you need to interview more
1:01:19
Chicago chefs. They're gonna, they're, they're
1:01:21
gonna be calling you. After I know, please call me.
1:01:25
Please call me. I, I love the book though.
1:01:27
Thank you for sending in to me. I, I love the first one as well.
1:01:29
And you know, you wrote a nice little message, of course
1:01:33
message to me. I'm, I'm happy that you write
1:01:38
and people should read this book by the way, cuz as I started
1:01:41
reading, it's like, wow, not only is it, it's a good story,
1:01:44
like I said earlier, like I like how you write.
1:01:47
Is it a good story? But it's very educational.
1:01:48
So as I started turning the pages like, oh, I didn't know
1:01:50
that. I haven't got to the part about
1:01:52
vanilla being nowhere, but I'm assuming that's in the book too.
1:01:55
The venom B. That they don't cook with
1:01:57
vanilla. Over there.
1:01:57
Oh yeah, sure. And and there's another thing as
1:02:00
well that people, I was surprised that people really
1:02:04
don't know that for even the people that know that vanilla
1:02:07
comes from Madagascar, they have no idea that every flower is
1:02:11
hand pollinated one by one. Really.
1:02:14
See, here you go. Yeah.
1:02:16
So you know, Velina comes from Mexico.
1:02:20
Mexico. There is a little bee that's
1:02:23
pollinates the orchid flower to create the Veneta bean to
1:02:27
produce Veneta beans when French them again, then took you know
1:02:32
some of those vines and then try in different part of the world
1:02:36
in the tropics, you know area. They brought it to the Indian
1:02:41
Ocean to Little de la Reignon, which is close to Madagascar.
1:02:45
And then they realized that in fact, they were planning the
1:02:49
vine. The vine was growing, but there
1:02:50
was no production of vanilla beans ever.
1:02:53
And say what's going on? And then they took the insect
1:02:55
with, but the insect died. So the insect doesn't leave
1:03:00
outside nor survive outside of Mexico.
1:03:02
So all the vanilla that are implemented in other part of the
1:03:06
world have to be hand pollinated.
1:03:09
So every morning during the season, which is in September
1:03:12
and October in Madagascar, women, because smaller finger
1:03:16
will go and you know, in each vine that they have in on their
1:03:20
piece of land, they will hand pollinate.
1:03:23
And I've done that step when I went to Yeah.
1:03:27
So they take like a little usually a thorn, you know, from
1:03:32
another tree and so on. And because the way the orchid
1:03:36
is done is that this only little bee has the possibility to flip
1:03:42
like, you know, one of the, you know, a female or male organ.
1:03:45
I don't remember. But when and what by doing this,
1:03:48
then they, you know, they put in Nate the the, the the flower.
1:03:53
If you don't have it, the the flower is done in a way that it
1:03:56
is physically impossible to have the two, you know, sex of like
1:04:01
the flower to touch. So then you have to lift, you
1:04:06
know, with your finger with the, the help of like a thorn or a
1:04:10
little tool. And then you have to press, you
1:04:13
know, those things together. And you have to have to do that
1:04:15
one by one. And each flower produce.
1:04:18
I need one vanilla bean from my house.
1:04:25
Hey, whatever you got to do. Actually, well, that type of
1:04:32
party. I'm just kidding.
1:04:33
I know, I know, I. Don't wait, but so funny though.
1:04:36
So last question, because you interview chefs, you know your
1:04:41
you know your chef history. In the United States, we have
1:04:44
Mount Rushmore. And if there was a Mount
1:04:47
Rushmore of four the four greatest chefs to ever live, are
1:04:50
you? Kidding me?
1:04:50
Who? Are they?
1:04:52
They. Don't have to be American.
1:04:53
Oh yeah, I mean, I'm going to put one because I'm still
1:04:57
begging him to come on the podcast and he's not coming yet.
1:05:00
He answers me and so on. But it's Sean Brock.
1:05:03
I will have Sean Brock on that rock for sure.
1:05:08
So you got Sean? Brock.
1:05:08
That's that's he's my, my, my. He's your favorite chef?
1:05:12
Yeah. I like the new generation of
1:05:22
chefs, in fact, because I think that they have that mindset of
1:05:26
collaboration very open. But Oh my gosh, that's a tough
1:05:36
question. I don't even know when we I'm
1:05:40
surprised. You don't have any French chefs
1:05:41
in there? Oh yeah, yeah, I was in the
1:05:46
yeah, yeah, yeah. OK.
1:05:47
OK. So no, I was not thinking about
1:05:49
like international. Sorry and you said it and sorry,
1:05:51
I forgot. We have we have Sean Brock.
1:05:53
So Sean Brock for the USDS. I will put yeah, Alan Ducasse
1:05:58
probably. Yeah, Alan Ducasse I love as
1:06:03
well. I will put a pastry chef.
1:06:05
I will put Pierre on me another French there.
1:06:12
And then we need to have we need to have a French from a chef
1:06:18
from that time. But I don't know if I know them
1:06:22
enough because there's so many, you know, fantastic chefs in I
1:06:28
think maybe someone from Peru. I mean, because the Peruvian
1:06:31
cuisine is you. You are asking me, you know what
1:06:34
I like to be trans Peruvian cuisine is 1.
1:06:37
So a chef from Peru that we put OK and I need a fourth one.
1:06:44
That's four. That's four, yeah.
1:06:46
OK, you got 4. You don't have a Peru chef by
1:06:49
name. I mean, I know Gaston.
1:06:54
What's his name? Gaston.
1:06:56
No, keep it, Gaston. Well, I'm not good with names.
1:07:01
As you can. No, it's OK.
1:07:02
I mean, neither am I. But I yeah.
1:07:06
I I think about. That's a tough one.
1:07:07
That's a tough question. I think about the length of time
1:07:10
that I've known you since 2018, I think the year that you
1:07:12
started. Yeah, I know that we've been
1:07:14
friends for a long time. People that want to buy your
1:07:17
book, where can they? Where can they buy it?
1:07:20
So first of all, they can buy it like everywhere they buy books
1:07:24
online, they can find the information as well on I created
1:07:27
like a page called a tasteofmadagascar.com, which is
1:07:31
easy to remember. They can, you know, Amazon,
1:07:37
Amazon, yeah, sure. You know, Amazon, you know, and
1:07:40
you know, I, I love as well all the, the, the private, you know,
1:07:48
like bookstore that I specialized in, in cuisine and
1:07:52
cooking and so on. Like kitchen alternators in in
1:07:56
New York or there's a fantastic new one in Savannah called
1:08:00
Postal tables and tails. There is omnivore in San
1:08:07
Francisco. There is now serving in LA.
1:08:12
All the all of those are. New books in all food.
1:08:15
Yeah, yeah. And and your other book as well,
1:08:18
correct. Yeah.
1:08:19
So I mean, you can find it on online and in fact there's still
1:08:23
people reading it. Conversations behind the kitchen
1:08:25
door. Great book.
1:08:28
A taste of Madagascar, great book.
1:08:30
Podcast Flavors under so known everywhere.com, Everywhere,
1:08:34
everywhere. And by the way, I was thinking,
1:08:35
I've been on five episodes, I think 5.
1:08:38
Yeah, so there's the first. I did two solo.
1:08:40
Ones you have to put you on the Mount Rushmore.
1:08:42
You should. You have two solo ones with me
1:08:45
and then you had the CMO one. When we were supposed to go at
1:08:48
South by Southwest. We got cancelled so cold.
1:08:50
Which is the leadership? The leadership.
1:08:52
One and then the panel. We did the panel with Kevin Fink
1:08:55
and Fiori Tedesco. Yeah, we did.
1:08:58
Another Mexican independence? Day, that's true.
1:09:01
With I forgot Edgar Rico and and Rick Lopez.
1:09:04
Yeah, and someone else I'm probably forgetting.
1:09:07
And then we did another one with Gabriel Crowther and Suzanne
1:09:11
Goin. Oh yeah.
1:09:13
Oh I forgot, I think that's 7. No way.
1:09:17
So yeah, Oh my gosh. Then I don't think anyone could.
1:09:20
No, I don't think you've had a guest.
1:09:21
On you are you are you are the best you've.
1:09:24
Been on two of my podcasts. You've been on Chefs PSA and
1:09:26
you're also on Run the Pass. Yes, that's right as well.
1:09:30
Go back and listen to that one, Emmanuel.
1:09:32
People could find you on Flavors Phenom.
1:09:34
They could find you everywhere. Thank you for being here.
1:09:35
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
1:09:37
I really appreciate it. I miss seeing you, it's been too
1:09:39
long. I know, I know.
1:09:40
But you, every time I come to Austin, you are the first person
1:09:44
I contact, so you know that. Yeah, thank you.
1:09:47
All right, that's the show. If you liked it, make sure you
1:09:49
leave five stars, nothing less than five stars.
1:09:51
If you want more chefs PSA, go to chefspsa.com.
1:09:54
Get yourself some books, get yourself some merch including
1:09:56
Culinary Leadership Fundamentals and the Line Cook Survival
1:09:59
manual. If you want early access to
1:10:01
episodes, you can get them on Spotify and sub stack by
1:10:04
becoming a paid member. The link is in the notes.
1:10:06
We'll see you next week. Hit the porno music.
1:10:08
No small Drake in the kitchen. Mix it.
1:10:11
Drop the chef Dallas. No fiction stirring up the BT
1:10:14
enough the session. Listen close classes and sex.