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277: Strong Enough to Listen: Better Leadership, Better Customer Experience · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

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Welcome, revolutionaries, to another episode of the Customer Service Revolution
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Podcast. And today we have Lisa Duran,
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longtime friend, former consultant at the DiJulius Group.
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And I'm excited with her experience in healthcare as a chief experience officer,
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business owner, and senior vice president Lisa has built a reputation
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for turning vision into action,
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creating meaningful connections.
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And empowering others to thrive.
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Lisa's expertise spans leadership,
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development, internal culture,
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and customer-patient experience,
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helping organizations build the kind of trust and connections that drive real
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results. Lisa is the author of the new book,
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Strong Enough to Listen: Bridging the Communication Gap Between Our Choices
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and Our Responses.
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This book is about unlocking your internal strength to choose person over
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problem, and in doing so, unlocking the ultimate power of human connection.
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Before her career in leadership and culture transformation,
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Lisa was a professional ice skater with the ice capades,
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an experience that taught her discipline,
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creativity, and the joy of being present.
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Welcome, Lisa.
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Thanks, John. And I I use so much of what I learned from you in this book.
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That's what's pretty exciting.
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Well good. I'm so excited. So ~ before we get into it,
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tell us the book is available right now,
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right?
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Yes, it's available on pre sale through Amazon right now.
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It'll ship November tenth, but it is definitely available on Amazon right now.
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Strong enough to Listen
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Good.
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And we have a link to that in the show notes.
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Strong enough to listen. Lisa,
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what all right, so b b before we get into why you wrote the book,
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tell us about your background from a high level and how it prepared
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you for this this big step of launching your your first soon to be bestseller.
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Thank you. So my background is customer experience slash patient experience.
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I found myself after my experience with the DiJulius group,
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after learning so much about customer experience,
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before that, and after that, finding myself in the healthcare space.
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One of the things I learned from you,
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which I thought was so, so insightful,
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was to learn to do things better.
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You don't stay within your industry,
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you go outside of your industry.
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So I learned so much going outside of the industry and have found myself back
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in healthcare and patient experience,
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leadership development, internal culture.
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So that's where I found myself.
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Good. All
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Yeah.
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right. So after all that, you wrote the book strong enough to listen.
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Mm-hmm. Yes.
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~
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why did you write the book and why that title?
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Yes, so I wrote the book because we in the world are in the most divided we've ever
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been. And in the workplace, I am watching I'm watching leaders be exhausted
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and I'm what I'm also watching workers and I'm watching people just burn
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out and be exhausted because they're not feeling heard.
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And listening is passive. Being strong enough to listen,
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the word strong is a choice.
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And can we or are we strong enough to sit in discomfort?
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And are we strong enough to choose person over problem?
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And so the word strong was really important in the title of this book because
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you know, in in in my time, the the the teaching was on active listening.
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And active listening is is important.
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And this is taking it one step further.
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And it you talk about it in your the relationship economy that it really is.
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listening to care and it's really listening for a relationship.
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And so that's that's why I chose the word strong.
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I love it. I love it. I I I think this is so timely.
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I think listening, I think, you know,
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we talk about the ten service aptitude skills people need and and I I think listen,
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every generation can obviously
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Mm-hmm.
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benefit from this, but also at no fault of their own,
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there is the thirty and under that
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Mm-hmm.
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I say is relationship disadvantaged because they only grew up in the digital world
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So
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and
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they might have gone to school during the pandemic,
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their first job after college,
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you know, may may be virtual and they're getting robbed of all these things that
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you and I I were forced to be put in.
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and I think listening, being curious,
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~
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So
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are superpowers and and and and you know,
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there's there's so much to it.
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So who's this who's this book for?
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Who's your audience?
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It's really for everybody. More specifically,
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it's for that leader that so genuinely wants to connect with their team.
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it is that exhausted leader, that overscheduled leader.
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It is for that parent losing connection with their child because their child
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is just as distracted as they are.
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It's for that marriage that is slowly dying because coexisting has become the norm.
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It really is for everyone that truly desires to learn that,
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you know,
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The answer isn't a fix. The answer is truly our presence.
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And that's something that you just talked about is,
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we really learn that, that it's the relationship.
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It's it's being present. It's really being present.
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That's that's really the answer.
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And it's the way we show genuine care.
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And people are hungry for it. So it's really for
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Yeah.
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everybody.
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Yeah, I love that. I love that.
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I one of my advice, you get asked all the time,
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what would you tell your 25 year old self?
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And one of
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Mm-hmm.
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my my advice is not to be in a hurry.
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Like I was always in a hurry when I was younger.
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Yeah.
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And if we had a meeting, it's like,
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all right, come on, chop, chop.
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I I have another one five minutes like all right,
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come Lisa, you're building me a clock.
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I just want to know what time it is.
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And
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Yeah.
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God, I just like hate that.
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I hate that I was in a hurry. then it wasn't relaxed.
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I wasn't present. I, just even if I was at a movie or at a dinner,
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I'm thinking about, as soon as we can get out of this theater or dinner,
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all the
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Mm-hmm.
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things I need to go back and do.
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And you're not present, right?
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And and it's so bad. It's so bad.
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So you know, you you have a phrase,
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choosing person over problem. Tell us about that.
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So choosing person over problem again is that active,
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it's that active choice to say,
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you know what, I'm going to choose to care about you before I realize if
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I can fix it, if I can't deliver on what you're asking for,
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I'm still going to choose to listen to you.
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And that's really choosing the person even before they open their mouth.
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That's choosing to listen. It's choosing the person versus the problem
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or the position. And and when I think about politically,
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how how divided we are and how we can we can coexist.
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We can have a great relationship and not agree on everything.
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And in the workplace, certainly we can have a great relationship and
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not agree on everything or not be able to deliver on what's being asked for.
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But truly listening makes a person feel heard and understood.
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Yeah. I I have some in writing the relationship economy,
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I I did a lot of studying and and research on it and I probably thought
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I was maybe a five out of a ten in listening
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Yeah.
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until I did the research and realized I was,
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you know, a one would have been probably ~ overrating me.
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yeah.
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But some
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some things that I took away from that was some quotes.
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Listen like you're wrong.
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Mm-hmm. It's hard.
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Which is hard to do. But like,
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you we could be talking about politics,
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religion, the vaccine, you know,
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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.
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all the stuff going on. And
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once you hit a topic that I'm on the opposite end,
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it's like, I I think our normal response is like,
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my God, like I can't wait till she's done.
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So I could tell her all the things why she's wrong,
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versus shut up.
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Mm-hmm.
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And
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I you I may not be totally swayed to believe everything she believes,
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but she's a smart person. and she might have some things.
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So listen like you're wrong. And the other quote I like is don't defend your ideas,
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explore new ones, right? Instead of just
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Hmm. Ooh, that's a good one.
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like I said, having my argument,
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you know, as the prosecuting attorney to combat everything you said.
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So ~
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Yeah.
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it's hard. It's hard to do. It's very hard to do,
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It is so hard to do. And one of what
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but so valuable.
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one of the quotes that I have in the book is is is one of my favorite.
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And not not just because it's it's in the book,
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but it it resonates with me personally ex exactly everything you're saying.
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Are we willing to sit in discomfort without trying to fix it or win the point?
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I don't know about you, but sitting in discomfort's hard.
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Yeah. Well, but you think about I I was guilty of this growing up,
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or when I say growing up, I probably mean my twenties,
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thirties and forties, is surrounding myself who with people who agreed with me,
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people who had the same, you know,
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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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views of the world as me, which is so
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Yeah.
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shallow. Like, what do you learn if,
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you know, like I I I I my shadow does all that.
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I I don't need, someone to be like,
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yeah, you're totally right, you're totally right,
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versus, being pushed back and and and having different views to to question right.
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Like now I think I I argue with myself.
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Like,
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No.
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you know, I'm like, wait a minute,
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why why do I think that? You know,
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am I, you know, where did that come from?
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so why is is listening so important?
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I I think that's an obvious question,
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but as it relates to customer experience,
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but I even like how you relate it to at home,
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~ in in
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Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
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in you know, with your kids, with with with with your significant other,
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with you you know your leader,
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you with your employee.
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Yeah, I think you actually just answered it.
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If you listen well at work, if that has become natural for you,
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if that's become a choice that you've made,
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then you're going to be better at home.
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You're going to listen at home better.
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And and you're going to listen to your friends and your family and
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the people around you better. And you're going to start to change
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the the narrative of if you don't agree with me,
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we can't have a relationship.
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And so listening is important in customer experience because especially especially
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with technology, so often technology will will fix the the issue
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yet forget the person. And so listening helps you remember the person.
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So where does curiosity fit in with listening?
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Well, it exactly what you said is curiosity allows you to learn something
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and learn from their perspective.
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You know, we're not gonna change someone's mind by winning the point,
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right? By defending our view. You we all have experiences and we
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all we all have thoughts and ideas,
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and curiosity helps you to understand what those are,
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understand why somebody thinks the way they think or why they believe what they
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believe, or or you know.
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why why they're coming to you with that point.
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And curiosity helps you to understand that.
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Without curiosity, we it's hard to choose to listen,
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right?
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So you have, expertise in so many of these things and and and you were
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a customer experience consultant.
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So talk to me, g give our listeners some tactical things they can
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do in customer experience, whether it's a upset client,
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patient, or, you you know, talking to your team member.
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Wha wha what are some good tools that they could use that they're not jumping in,
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that they're not
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hijacking the conversation, you know,
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to get it back on their agenda.
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That's a great question. And I'll start with the team member because they can't give
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or they can't deliver what they're not getting.
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And so I'll start with the team member.
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Right.
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And with the team member, it is it is asking and truly listening.
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It's choosing person over problem.
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And I have a model in there called clear C L R.
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C is choose person over problem.
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L is listening to care. Once you've chosen that person,
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the L, you know, the listening to care becomes a little easier.
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And the R is respond with yes and.
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That's an old improv, you know,
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yes and. And when when you respond with the yes and then it helps them feel heard
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and understood. And it's really important for your team member.
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You know, Simon Snick talks about how how retention is right is an issue
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in the workplace. And most of the people that are leaving are the empaths,
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the people that
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That get downloaded on emotionally.
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And as a leader in the workplace,
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we need to create safety for that person to be heard and understood
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and listened to in the workplace.
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And so that they are not downloading on other people and and they are,
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you know, they want to stay because they that what they have to say matters.
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So that's that's in the workplace of the at the the the team member.
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Now on the customer side, I will tell you in in my experience that
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it is really important not to just ask for a measurement,
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not just asking for a net promoter score,
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but asking for that real story,
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asking for that that, you know,
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tell me if there's one thing we could have done better to enhance your experience.
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What would it have been? And get that actionable data,
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because that's that's the hard part is when we don't know.
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When we're making decisions based on numbers or based on blanket statements,
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and we don't know the real story,
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we're not really caring about the people as we should be caring about the people.
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So let's
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double click on yes and because I'd never heard that before until
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Mm. Mm-hmm.
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this season, season four of Ted Lasso.
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At lasso, yeah.
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They had a whole episode. Yeah,
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yeah, yeah. So talk to me about that.
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Yes, and baby. Yeah, that
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Yeah, yeah.
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that episode is great. Yes, and Baby.
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it it is it's an improv technique that works beautifully at home and at work.
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if you think about it, when you use the word yes,
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you you are saying yes, I hear you.
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You're not saying yes, I agree,
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or yes, I can deliver. You're saying yes,
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what you have to say matters. And
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The the and can be the I can't deliver on that or I see it differently.
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It's and it's not but or you don't just jump in to win your point.
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The yes says, I care about what you have to say and the and and allows
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you to to communicate sometimes difficult things.
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And I know that I've used it in my marriage a lot.
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And with my husband and I, we you know,
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we talk about things and both of us will say,
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yes.
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And I see it differently. And then at work,
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it's it's beautiful. I actually worked with a leader who she would always
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use yes and and it was so great because every idea that I came to her with,
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she would say yes, and that's not in the budget right now.
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We need to do it like this for now.
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Let's figure out how we can do it together.
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And so the
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So
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so Lisa, I'm an employee of yours and
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Mm-hmm.
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I wanna you know, I think I should be promoted.
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Give me give me a yes and.
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Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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Yes, John. I understand why you feel you should be promoted.
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And all of the reasons that you stated are true.
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And we can't at this point at this point in this time,
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we don't have it in the budget.
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And let's figure out how we can get you there together.
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What ideas do you have?
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Yeah. Good. Great. Great. Great.
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Great. and when and and so w where do a company's what's it look like when company
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gets the listening wrong?
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Well, I I'm at the the bottom line is certainly profitability,
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though it's turnover. People will go across the street for another dollar an hour,
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you know, for for money for three months after that.
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They want to feel heard. They want to s they want to know that what they have
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to say matters. Even even if we can't deliver on what they're asking for,
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they want to know that they have a say in the decision making.
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And again, even if we can't deliver on what they're asking for,
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even if we can't.
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Or or or we don't move forward on their idea.
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Listening to their idea is so important.
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And companies that don't do that are the ones that find themselves with high
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turnover rates.
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Yeah. I love that. I love that.
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and where's AI? I mean, fit in with all
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Yeah.
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this. This is the you know, this is I believe hurting us ~ using
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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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AI improperly. I I love AI, but it
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Me too, yeah.
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could it could be used improperly.
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I feel like the pendulum has to come to the middle because AI,
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of course, we all use it, we all love it.
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And right now it's an it's an extreme of we use it for everything,
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or now we're we're learning how to use it for everything,
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though it doesn't replace the human connection.
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We will always desire human connection.
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And certainly in the relationship economy,
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you talk about that. The we will always desire human connection.
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And AI will address the problem,
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it doesn't always address the problem.
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person, though, there there are there are AIs come a long way and there
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are prompts that will help you to address the emotion and it feels like they
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are understanding you, though we've got to be cautious in that.
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And I think the wave of the future is is in the middle.
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So that's where I felt
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Yeah, yeah.
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AI is.
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So why do leaders have to listen to their own
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No.
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teams
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first?
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Because exactly what I said before,
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teams cannot deliver on something they're not receiving.
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And if they are not receiving,
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if they're not being listened to,
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how can they listen to their customers?
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So when you listen to your team and and and and you demonstrate that what they have
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to say matters, then they can listen to your customer,
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to their customer truly, and they can choose person over problem and they
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and they can decide that that yes,
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what they have to say matters,
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and it makes the customer walk away feeling.
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Feeling seen and heard, we both know I learned that from you,
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that customers will tell how many people is it that they'll tell five people?
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Is it five? Yeah.
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Yeah, well that was might maybe before social media.
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Now it's, you know, yeah. They it it's a megaphone.
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Yeah. Yeah,
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Right.
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it's a mega that's
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true. That's a great point, is you know,
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when they people don't have a great experience and by listening to someone,
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even if you can't give them what they're asking for,
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you are telling them that they matter.
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And that's really important here.
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Yeah. this won't surprise you because you worked with me.
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Mm-hmm.
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but I have a a post-it note on my screen here that says,
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wait. And I had to do that because you know,
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when I'm talking to someone or a potential client and they start telling me about,
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you know, their business or their situation,
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I I'd interrupt you know.
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I I believe because I I wanted to help them and say,
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my God, we worked with a similar business and this is what we did with them
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and they saw great results. I'd get so excited.
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and it was it would cannibalize the majority of the conversation,
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right? Because I'd be interrupting and then we wouldn't get the deal more times than
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I I'd like to admit. And and I I I'm pretty sure it's because I didn't
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let them talk. My the first
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comment or two that I jumped in on and went into an example of how
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we help someone with that wasn't their real pain point,
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right? And so
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Mm-hmm.
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I was taking time away from so wait is stands for why am I talking?
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All right. W-A-I-T. And
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I love that. I am my time.
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so what I do now is if we're having a conversation and you bring up something that
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I normally would like, my God,
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Lisa, blah, blah, blah.
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I'd write down, all right, tell her about w how we did this with,
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Yeah.
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ABC.
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But I don't interrupt. Then, I and then I'll have I'll have like eight things that
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tell her when we're, you know,
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it's my turn. Tell her about that.
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Tell her about this, tell her about this.
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And then when it's finally my turn,
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I realize those first three are so inconsequential that
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Mm.
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they're not important, but I do know what is because I,
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you know, I finally let you.
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I let you talk. And the real problem,
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John, is that we need and and that's what I can focus in on versus
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Yeah.
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hijacking. So basically, wait stands for shut the hell up
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and stopped interrupting him, you know?
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So you know, I I've had to learn the hard
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So good.
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way and and and but it's it's so it's so valuable.
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~ Lisa, what's
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It is so valuable.
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what's what so someone gets your book,
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they share it with their team,
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they share it with their loved ones.
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They have their leaders read it.
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what what what what are they gonna be better at?
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I besides listening, right? What what's gonna be different about their approach
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to communication?
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Yes. Yes. And yes, yes. And I'd like the the answer actually hooks on
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to what you were just talking about interrupting.
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So often we do that because we have mind chatter.
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And in the book I talk about a year with a notebook,
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I use the story of myself and how I worked for a leader who
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I would interrupt constantly. And she said,
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It's that mind chatter that you're worried you're gonna forget
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or you're excited about something and you want so
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Yeah.
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she made me write it down for a year.
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I had to carry a notebook for a year.
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Every time we had a conversation,
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I had to write it down. So that you're exactly right.
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I'd go back and I'd look at it after she was done and I'd and I'd find
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out that some of those things weren't necessary and that exactly it wasn't what
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she was communicating. It was what I took from it at the time.
22:46
Upon reflection of it, it wasn't necessarily that.
22:49
So to answer your question of of you know,
22:53
what are people going to take from take away from listening better is
22:57
Ultimately, a better life. the this is this book is great for work because
23:02
it it certainly helps us to be better leaders,
23:04
better for customer service, better.
23:07
when when when you look at what really matters,
23:09
one one of my favorite quotes is in this life,
23:11
we should not fear failure, we should fear being successful in things that don't
23:15
matter. And work matters and our family and our our home,
23:19
our life matters.
23:21
And it just helps us to be better at work.
23:23
And one of the things that I want to be sure to say before we close,
23:26
before we end here, is the idea that we can be kind and not soft.
23:34
That's a that that's a hard thing.
23:35
for years, I wish, you you you said you the the we we're often asked the question,
23:40
what we we go back and tell our 25-year-old self,
23:42
Yeah.
23:43
I wish I would have told myself that.
23:45
I can be kind and not soft. That's the yes and.
23:48
That
23:49
Right. Right. I love that.
23:50
yeah, I like that too. And kindness is demonstrated by listening.
23:54
Right. And and so that helps me to not interrupt.
23:58
I yeah I often think, you yes,
24:00
what why am I talking? I love that weight.
24:03
And and how do I be kind? I'm gonna be kind by sitting in discomfort without trying
24:08
to fix it or win my point. And and I'm going to be kind.
24:12
Doesn't mean I have to be soft,
24:13
so it's yes and yes, I hear what you're saying,
24:15
and I see it differently.
24:19
Yeah, yeah. Another thing I got from it was if you ask a question of s to
24:23
Mm-hmm.
24:24
someone and don't ask two to three follow-up questions,
24:27
odds are
24:27
Mm-hmm.
24:28
odds are you weren't l listening or
24:31
Yeah.
24:31
you asked the question only because you wanted to answer it yourself.
24:36
Like Lisa, how was your weekend?
24:38
Really? Do you wanna know what I did?
24:39
Right? Like I didn't care about your weekend,
24:39
Yeah yeah. Yeah.
24:41
you know, versus
24:43
you tell me about your weekend,
24:44
tell me about that. Well, how did you ever get into
24:47
know, ice
24:48
Mm-hmm.
24:48
capades or, wh why why did you go to that city for a weekend getaway
24:53
or or whatever it may be is you know the you want to have a three or four
24:58
to one ratio of questions asked versus answered.
25:02
That's really, really good. That is,
25:05
it is so true, right? Yeah, we we often,
25:08
if you think about it as kids,
25:10
we were celebrated for being right.
25:11
And we were celebrated for winning.
25:14
So our our our wanting to jump in a lot of times is
25:19
our desire to be looked at or viewed as right or winning
25:24
or worthy or important. And we don't have that to prove.
25:29
And we are.
25:32
Yeah. Yeah. I love this.
25:32
So I love that.
25:33
All right. We're talking to Lisa Duran,
25:36
author of the new book that's just come out titled Strong Enough to Listen:
25:43
Bridging the Communicate Communication Gap Between Our Choices and Our Responses.
25:49
we have on our show notes w where you can the link to it's the Amazon link
25:55
to order strong enough to listen to.
25:58
Lisa's website at Lisa Durand Consulting dot com.
26:01
Is there any other places social media that people could follow you
26:05
and get your your brilliance?
26:07
Thank you. Yes, certainly LinkedIn,
26:09
there's strong enough to listen on LinkedIn.
26:11
And on Instagram is just
26:12
Nice.
26:13
my personal Instagram. Facebook as well.
26:15
Facebook is there's strong enough to listen on Facebook.
26:18
Thank you for asking that. Thank you for having me.
26:20
Yeah. Well at Lisa, I know you personally.
26:22
I've known you for a long time.
26:24
You were a rock star when you worked for us.
26:26
There's no better person I think can models the behavior that you're sharing with
26:32
others. So congratulations. This is such a ~ exciting
26:34
Each year.
26:35
chapter in your life.
26:37
Thank you, John. I I learned so much from you and and I I I've taken
26:42
so much from you. I should I should have given you more credit in the book,
26:45
though a lot of the concepts you will see are very familiar.
26:49
There yeah, there are so many concepts.
26:51
And throughout the years, all the things that I've learned from working
26:54
for you and learning beside you and and just gleaning from your wisdom
26:59
has been invaluable. So thank you for that.
27:02
Thanks for saying that. All right,
27:04
Revolutionaries. make sure you go and get the strong enough to listen book
27:09
and follow Lisa Duran at Lisa Duran Consulting.com.
27:13
She has a wealth of information and just,
27:16
brilliant, easy thoughts that you can implement.
27:19
thank you, Revolutionaries. We will see you next week on
27:22
the Customer Service Revolution podcast.