Latest / Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano / Ketamine + the Future of Healing

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Ketamine + the Future of Healing · Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano

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This is Your Pain Game podcast where we talk about the game of living in
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and with chronic pain and trauma, get into the heart of how to heal.
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I am your host, Lindsay Soprano. On the show, I plan
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on discussing with doctors, chronic pain patients, holistic practitioners, loved ones,
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and anybody that is interested in having their voice heard in the chronic pain and
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trauma world that we live in. We have discussed psychedelics and plant medicine here
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and there on this show. We've been slowly but surely kind of bringing it
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into conversation. It's not something that we haven't been thinking about. We've been
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reading about it all over the places in social media. Take your mushrooms,
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do this, do that? All these different clinics, right, And I
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promised that I would start bringing this topic up into attention more to my listener
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as I started to feel more confident in that space and talking about it,
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because at the end of the day, I am here for me as well
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as you guys, right, And I've dabbled in psychedelic use. Come on,
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you guys have listened to me long enough, you know that that's not
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a huge surprise, right, But dabbling in it in my home on a
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Saturday the night is far different than it being actually, you know, dosed
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the way that we're supposed to dose for what we're trying to dose for.
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Right so, and since my youth has not been monitored by a doctor or
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a clinic, it's now time to move into that. And I know it's
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the next step in my healing journey, and it's time to do it the
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right way. But we want to talk today a little bit about the benefits
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of psychedelics and how we can leverage them and use them in our wellness practices,
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whatever that might look like. And so this conversation is going to be
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interesting because everybody is going to benefit from this conversation today. I don't care
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who y'allre so and it helps with you know, we're going to be talking
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about anyone the guess that we're going to talk about today. Okay, we're
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going to talk about ketamine. Baby, We're not going to go down a
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K hole though. We're going to talk about its legitimacy in treating mood disorders
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and PTSD and bipolar disorder and pain as well, which of course we talk
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about a lot here. So let's get into it. I would like to
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introduce to you my guest today, Sam Mandel, Darling, how are you,
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Hey, Lindsay, I'm good. How are you? I am good?
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And I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today because ketamine has
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been something that, as you know I've been I've had a bad experience with
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it, and you have shifted that bad experience to something that's going to be
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a good one. So that's why we're here today. So Sam Mandel is
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a lifelong mental health advocate and entrepreneur. Sam co founded Ketamine Clinics in Los
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Angeles with his father, doctor Stephen Mandel, in twenty fourteen and has grown
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the clinic to be one of the most successful and well respected Ketymine infusion therapy
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clinics in the United States. He serves as company's chief executive officer and is
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responsible for the day to day operations and strategic direction of the clinic, and
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he also was an Entrepreneur magazine as one of the top ten healthcare entrepreneurs to
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watch for in twenty twenty three. The year is not over and I am
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keeping my eyes on you, and that is foreshore. So I am rolling
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out the red carpet for you, babe. I'd like to start by talking
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about how you got into psychedelic medicine in the first place, and then let's
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kind of take our journey from there. Yeah. Well, thank you for
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such an awesome introduction. And I love your energy. It's so good and
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so refreshing. I got themto psychedelics because the mental health crisis has affected me
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personally, my friends and family, people I've lost to suicide, people I've
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witnessed struggle with addiction, depression, polar disorder, other mental health conditions,
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and people who I love in Carabaut who are still struggling today. And the
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modern mental health system has failed us, and especially western medicine really where mental
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health is concerned, has failed us. And looking at where are the solutions?
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What can we do to live happy, healthy lives? How can I
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help the people who I care about and the community at large really get the
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relief that they deserve and need. You got to just dig deeper and inquire
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more and more because accepting the status quo as the solution or as the only
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answer is just not acceptable. So psychedelics come into play. They are a
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pretty interesting, exciting and new approach to mental health. There's nothing new about
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psychedelics, right. You look at use of some of them, like mushrooms,
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pslocybin, magic mushrooms, you know, date back thousands of years.
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But the idea that they could actually be used to treat mental health conditions is
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kind of a newer concept for a lot of people. And you know,
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there's obviously some interesting research and stuff that was going on in the fifties and
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sixties and that was I'll put on pause. But generally it is a new
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approach to mental health and to not using them just for you know, religious
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or spiritual or recreational uses, but actually to treat illness. Oh you can
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use it without it being recreational. You can. And that's the issue we
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have. You know, there's so much stigma. There's so much stigma.
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And also I don't know how we got into a place where well I do
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know how, but it's so unfortunate that we're in this place where certain things
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that might produce pleasure are so stigmatized as evil, bad and wrong that somehow
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we've lumped pleasure into evil is one and the same. But when it comes
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to multinational corporations making record profits on other things that make us feel good and
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give us pleasure. That's good stuff, and that's good business, good commerce,
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and good for us, be it nicotine or alcohol or the other things
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that have the stamp of approval by the people who benefit from it financially.
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But the things that they you know, can't or don't want to benefit from,
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then those things are bad when they make us feel good. So just
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the whole notion that even recreational or illicit drug uses on its face bad is
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really just such a lord of bs. And of course I'm not advocating for
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everyone to go and pick up a crystal meth habit. I'm not advocating for
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you to be getting high all day every day. I'm not saying that episode
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over. Yes. Yeah, if that's your takeaway from this, you're really
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not interested in understanding me or what I'm trying to talk about today. But
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yeah, we don't want to be listening. Yeah, you know, I
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just want to be really really clear on that. I don't advocate for anyone
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to do anything that's illegal, including using street drugs, but I do think
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it's important to note that you're not an evil person or committing an evil act.
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In my opinion if you do choose to do that. And I think
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harm reduction is also very important, right, and so how much you're taking,
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when you're taking, where you're taking it, why you're taking it,
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what you're taking are all extremely important. And there's not a lot of nuance
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in the conversations that we have around drugs. There's like people who say that
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they're great and people who say that they're evil, and you know, people
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can be pretty extreme in their views about them, and unfortunately that isn't sufficient.
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You know, like with many things in life, there's a tremendous amount
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of nuance here. So I feel like I'm maybe getting a little bit off
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topic, but are on a tangent, I should say, but yeah,
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no, But it's a tangent that the listeners here of this show and myself
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are used to being on because they hear for me about my feelings about Western
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medicine all the time here and how it has failed me time and time and
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time and time again, and how I watch it failing so many other people
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in my life that have suffered with all of the things you have listed,
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from depression and anxiety and PTSD and bipolar disorder and suicidal tendencies all of these
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things, including people like myself with CRPS and other chronic you know, pain
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syndromes and diseases, and you know, it's I never would have thought that
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I'm sitting here right now and that like, as soon as I'm done with
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this episode, I'm gonna call my mom and I'm gonna chit chat with her
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about doing drugs. Because I was raised because I was raised in a right
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wing Christian, you know, conservative home. My dad was kind of a
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little bit of a hippie and you know, he partook in his stuff,
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but my mom is like as straight laceday as you get. And so having
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these conversations about introducing psychedelics into my treatment and my healthcare is something that is
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a topic of almost every conversation that my family and I have now. So
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that stigma is starting to lift big time, and I'm seeing it in my
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own life in a very from a very conservative part of my life where I
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was worried that I was going to have to tell my mom, like I'm
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going to try these things and you don't have anything to say about it,
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whether I'm going to do it or not. But having those conversations because that
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stigma has just been part of especially us in our thirties and forties and early
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fifties and such. We were raised like, you know, it was the
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dare thing, like don't do drugs like that was it. You know,
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this is your brain on drugs. The eggs in the pan and its sizzles,
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right. I mean we all remember at least that watched those commercials as
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PSAs you know, in the Reagan eras, and you know, we were
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dealing with that stuff, and so we were brought up that that stuff is
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bad. And so now I think it's great to have the conversation that it
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just isn't it can be if you are not, like you said, harm
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reduction. That was very very good that you said that, because it's true,
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like I was saying earlier recreationally, you know, maybe I probably should
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kick back on some of the things I've tried, you know, to see.
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I was like, I just want to know, like, does this
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even help me at all? And it absolutely has. I just need to
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do it the right way. Now, So let's talk a little bit about
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what what ketamine actually is and how it works and why it's a little bit
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different than the psilocybins. Of the world and MDMA, right, because that's
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where a lot of people are like, it's ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin.
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I think that's pretty much what we're all seeing, especially in social media all
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over the place. Can you talk a little bit about what ketamine is and
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why it's so different from others and then we can go from there. Yeah.
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So ketamine is unique in that it's an FDA proved medicine and it's been
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around since the sixties. It was FDA proved in nineteen seventy as an anesthetic
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and it's become very quickly. Was, you know, one of the most
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widely used anesthetics in the world, and it still is today. And it
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has other applications as well as an analgesic as a pain reliever, it's used
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instead of opioids in certain situations. It's also used in veterinary medicine. So
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some people know of it as a horse tranquilizer or a cat tranquilizer, and
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it's also a drug that people use, you know, recreationally or on the
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street known as special k or Kittie or all these other nicknames that it has,
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and so people know of it usually through just one of those ways,
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and then they think that that's the whole story, but that's just part of
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the story. So so ubiquitous drug with a lot of different uses, and
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in the last twenty twenty five years it's been proven to be one of the
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most effective mental health treatments available today, primarily for depression, but also PTSD,
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suicidality, anxiety, and other forms of depression like bipolar depression, postpartum
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depression, even some substance use disorders, which is a little bit ironic considering
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that some people do abuse ketamine, but if you're having issues with substances other
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than ketamine, it can actually be helpful as part of a bigger treatment plan
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people with eating disorders. And in the list of applications for it is actually
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only growing. So it's a really really interesting medicine. And I think there's
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some reasons that would explain why it works so well for so many things that
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maybe we can come back to that later. But we use ketamine intravenously to
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treat mental health at Kedemic Clinics Los Angeles. So ketemine is FDA approved.
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There's a lot of safety and efficacy data on the medicine in general and specifically
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for this use as mental health treatment. There's been about one hundred and sixty
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clinical trials conducted on ketamine for depression and other mood disorders. Around fifty sixty
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have results published on the internet. You can go to clinicaltrials dot gov or
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other resources PubMed and you can read them yourself, and dozens of them have
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been pure reviewed. And I mentioned all this is to say this is the
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real deal and it's proven, because some people who aren't educated on this will
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say, oh, that's all anecdotal, or yeah, you know, some
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things about ketamine seem interesting, but we really need more research, we need
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more data. These are the really really conservative or cynical or in some cases
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dishonest people who are making these kinds of claims. And sometimes they're smart people
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or they have a lot of letters after their names, and they think,
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oh, this is an authority. Well, there's enough data on ketdemen for
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mental health that it's a real, proven treatment and it works, and it's
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safe, and it's effective and there's no known long term side effects and it
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actually works about twice as effected as most of the conventional treatments out there,
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primarily antidepressant pills, prescription pills, medications, even you know therapy and talk
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therapy and others. In our clinic, it's about eighty three percent effective.
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And that's even in treatment resistant cases, people who have tried and not benefited
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from several other conventional treatment options. It works faster, it works in a
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matter of days, whereas these other treatments often take weeks or months to work.
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Short term side effects are extremely minimal. Again, no no long term
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so it really is an incredible treatment. And also the quality of relief is
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different. People really get a restoration of pleasure. They really start to feel
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good again, get more energy, more motivation, feel more connected to themselves
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and others, increased sense of compassion for themselves and others in really meaningful ways,
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whereas the conventional treatments. Again I'm mostly thinking of the pills that are
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available SSRIs, SNRIs, antipsychotic medications, etc. Benzodiaz a kines know for
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anxiety. A lot of these drugs really numb people out. They make them
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feel locked in. They may not feel as depressed or as down, but
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they also don't allow them to experience the pleasure, joy or highs of life
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either. They're in a narrower field or scope of their experience. Their lived
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experience has been narrowed, and it's not particularly good. It's just maybe more
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functional than it was, and function is very important. But that's again,
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that's not something to settle for. I mean, we really think everyone deserves
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to live a life of actually being in joy, and of course we all
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have pain and sadness and tragedy in life, and life cannot be beautiful and
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roses all the time, all day, every day, and that's never the
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standard of the expectation. Though. People deserve to have joy and happiness be
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an important consistency, you know, foundational part of their lives, and unfortunately
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a lot of people today don't have that. When it comes to ketamine,
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I know that there is a pill form versus infusion, and I was given
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a massive dose for my first dose. I had one hundred and twenty milligrams
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in a pill form that was given to me the first time that I was
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given ketamine. It also was the last time I tried it because I went
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down a ca hole that I don't care. I don't care to remember the
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bits and pieces that I did go down, And I mean, I'm like
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one hundred pounds wet you know, and like for them to give me enough
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to use your terminology herst triculizer, because that's what we all think about when
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we heard about ketamine. I felt like I was being that. I was
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like just appbsolutely, like justit gun in the next Yeah, it was a
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horrible, terrible experience. But I have a girlfriend of mine who's very very
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dear to me, Lobby, I love you. She also suffers with CRPS,
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and she's actually doing the pill form of ketamine right now. It's working
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kind of sorta. Yeah, I would like to talk about the difference between
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why infusion therapy is so much more beneficial than the pill form. Yeah.
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Absolutely, And also I do want to mention it as you're bringing up now,
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I intended to. It's extremely helpful. Ketamine is extremely helpful for neuropathic
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pain conditions like CRPS, honey, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's
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it's really really good for a variety of other trigeminal neuralgia, migraines, certain
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types of even arthritis, so yeah, fibromyalgia. So it's a really really
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amazing medicine when it's provided in the right way and in the right context.
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And just like with anything that has the potential to do a lot of good.
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It can also do a lot of harm when it's not used responsibly.
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It's powerful, and that goes for all psychedelics. Psychedelics, really, I
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believe in many people believe really are the future of our health and wellness in
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the United States and in the world, and really at a foundation essential,
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foundational part of the future of mental health for so many people. And they
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also really can cause harm, and they're not for everyone. So I just
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want to be really clear about that, because I'm very enthusiastic about them,
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and I think they're very exciting and they really are already helping so many people.
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In the amount of people that I'm hopeful that they will help is just
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exponential in comparison. And again we're not saying everyone should after this episode is
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over go out and call a dealer for some illegal drugs, or go with
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a doctor. Yeah, or go to a doctor and you know, even
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get a legitimate treatment like ketamine from them. I mean, you can acquire,
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but it might not be for you, and that's okay. So I
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just want to be clear about about that. Now, as far as roots
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of administration, you bring up a good point. You know, ketamine comes
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in all shapes and sizes. I mean, it's just like with a lot
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of medicines. It can be taken or it can be received in really just
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about any way you can receive any medicine, the big ones being first and
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foremost IV IV infusions. And by the way, all of the research I
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mentioned earlier is about IVY infusions. There's very very little research at all about
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any other roots. So it's important because there are people who are getting some
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good results helping people with other roots of administration. But it's important to note
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that there is not much of any data on those other roots. So plinicals,
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Yeah, that's important, absolutely. Yeah, So not to say that
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they're bad or wrong or that you can't get a benefit from them, but
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again that's an important distinction, right, So just know that now, other
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than IV we have im intramuscular injections. That's where they you score a bunch
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of the medicine into a muscle all at once, whereas the IV in fusion
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in our clinic and and most it's it's a gradual infusion. For most it's
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forty minutes. We do fifty five minutes. So this is not a shot,
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right, This is a continuous, steady state of medicine being infused for
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almost an hour, and we do this six times over three weeks. That's
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the protocol now with IVY, this slow, steady, gradual is really one
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of the key things to the therapeutic benefit and to it being not habit forming.
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Now, ketymine is not addictive and you don't form it a physical dependency
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on it, even though some people use it recreationally, they might use it
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as a means of escape, but it isn't something they get dependent on in
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the way that you would with nicotine or alcohol or opioids where you can actually
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start to crave it or even look at like Benzo's, like common ones like
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xanax or klonopin, where you can actually die if you abruptly stop taking it
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if you're taking high enough doses. So, I mean, this is a
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pretty important difference between drugs that you can become physically dependent upon and addictally addicted
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to and those that you're not, like ketemine, you know. So that's
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that's something that again part of the stigma of people using it on the street
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is people are afraid, oh, I'm gonna get hooked, I'm going to
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be a kedemen addict. Well, most of the people who use it recreationally
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aren't really dependent on it anyways, And if they are, that's a mental
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thing. That's not like they're physically in need of it or they're going to
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get sick if they don't have it. So I want people to know that.
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So one of my questions. I have so many questions for you,
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they just keep popping up, and I know we only have a little bit
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more time together. But how long? Okay, So I go in,
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I do this treatment with you guys. How long does it last? That's
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a great question. Do I have to see you again? Because I think
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that's the pressing question, Like, okay, great, I go in there,
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I drop whatever the cost is of treatment for you guys, and then
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do I see you again, like next month? Like how long does it
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last? I'm assuming it differs between people and who they are and what kind
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of conditions they have, But generally speaking, I'd say, is it different
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between the mood disorder people versus the pain people? Because I feel like the
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mood disorder people kind of just spend up. But I know that I've got
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anxiety and insomnia and depression and all the things that come with living in pain
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all day because it's very stressful living in pain twenty four hours a day.
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Yeah, how long does it last? And I'm going to hold you to
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it. Well, first of all, no, we make no promises or
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guarantees that anyone will get any benefit. It's very likely, but no promises.
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And yeah, so it's actually comparable both mental health and pain. Patients
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typically get around three months of relief. It varies from patient to patient,
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and it depends a lot of lifestyle factors as well, and how much people
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are really willing to work on their healing. So we had a patient who
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was drinking a bottle of whiskey every day and he's like, you know,
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I'm not feeling better, and it's like, well, you probably need to
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lay off the whiskey, right, that's not helping, you know, really
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the brown liquor for a sec buddy. Yeah, you know. So people
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need to focus on good nutrition, good sleep, healthy interpersonal relationships, talk,
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therapy, you know, overall fitness, exercise, right, you know,
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overall wellness. Pillar is taking care of themselves. And these are things
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that a lot of people already know they should do, but then when they're
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feeling really depressed or they're in a lot of pain, they can't or they
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feel like they can't and they don't have the energy or the motivation, or
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it hurts too much. So Kennemy can provide the relief to make it possible,
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and the energy and motivation and make it possible. And people have to
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take carry that momentum forward in a positive way and actually make changes in their
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life, right, So Kenymine is an opportunity to do that. And so
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around three months and then people come back for booster infusions and that's usually a
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pair a day or two apart, and that extends the benefit. Again,
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they don't need to do another full series. By the way, it's important
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to mention that in addition to the pain infusions being four hours long, the
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visits are about six hours because of the prep time, the infusion and the
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recovery time sometimes longer than six hours. So again it's just a much more
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intense and process. And they're also usually done five in about six or seven
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days, whereas the mental health protocol is six over three weeks. These are
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usually not on consecutive days, sometimes with the day or two off, so
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that's another important difference. For people to be aware of in the protocols.
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So why is it longer and in a shorter duration for someone like myself as
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CRPS versus someone that's going in there because they've just done bipolar, they've done
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their pills, the thing is working, they're sick of it, they're having
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nightmares, they're screaming, bloody melt. You know, why is it so
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much longer and so much more intense for the chronic pain patients, specifically with
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people like myself with the nervous system conditions that way have The short answer,
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science doesn't really fully know. I can tell you that it seems like a
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lot of these pain conditions are just really tough to break through, and it
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just takes more medicine and more intensive therapy to kind of just break through the
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issue that's going on there and to help to reset things. There's a process
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called central sensitization, and that's over time, your pain signaling increases in intensity
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and frequency throughout the body, and ketamine really is like hitting a reset button
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on that and it just, for whatever reason, it's hard to do that.
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It's just a very tough thing to treat. It's one of the toughest
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crps I'm talking about, and there's not really good treatments out there, and
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a lot of people end up on really really unhealthy high doses of opioids,
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and then over time those are less effective and they start taking higher and higher
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doses, and there's a process where opioids actually ironically increase your sensitivity to pain,
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so as you're taking more and higher doses than your pain threshold is lower.
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It's an awful cycle. People have issues with the constipation and all kinds
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of side effects, and it's just it's an awful, awful thing. Ketamine
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really has the potential to help that, and it just requires more of it.
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It's tough. It's a tough thing to treat with. With the mental
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health patients, they're doing more inner processing during their infusions. There's more of
24:04
a psychological component there though. There's a lot of psychological issues related to pain,
24:10
and as you mentioned earlier, when you're in pain all the time,
24:11
your anxiety, your depression is there, so there's a lot of comorbidity.
24:17
You're going to have these other issues along with as a result of the pain
24:21
condition, and those can also be helped by the academine infusions as well.
24:25
And one of the things that I love about you before we before we kick
24:27
the can down the road here because they're getting up on time. But you
24:32
make me feel safe. I do not feel fearful of this where I did
24:36
before I met you, because I have such a bad experience. I mean,
24:38
it's true before I have my bad experience with it, and I was
24:41
like, no, I'm not going to try that again. I was about
24:42
is like, come on, lindsay like all these other things haven't worked,
24:47
you know, and and like you've mentioned a little bit earlier about you know,
24:49
our wellness protocols is the thing that we're doing that you don't. You
24:53
don't You can't expect to just go and see Sam and get this done and
24:56
then not take responsibility for your actions when you walk up the door, like
25:00
don't go drink a bottle of whiskey, yeah to your keet, I mean
25:03
treatment and expect things to be all hunky dory, like take responsibility for your
25:07
actions and and you know, advocate for yourself and for your own health care.
25:12
I mean, and I know that's a lot of part of this conversation
25:15
as well, but oh my gosh, I cannot wait to see you well
25:19
I'm really I'm really happy that that I've helped you to feel that you feel
25:23
safe talking to me, and I've helped you feel I mean, because you
25:29
know, there's just like with anything, there's a lot of nuance. And
25:30
we love to think and you know, black and white all are nothing extremes,
25:34
and you know, we're so polarized on so many issues and social media
25:38
and politics and whatever, and it's like, you know, pick a side
25:41
it's A or B, and then be too so extreme and it's so unhealthy,
25:45
you know. And the reality is, the truth is always somewhere in
25:48
the middle. There's always it's always the gray where the good stuff really is,
25:52
you know. And I like to say it's supposed to be purple.
25:53
It's pururple. I like purple. I think I think purple is is a
25:57
great come calling him for a had of meine treatment right now. That was
26:00
this thing going off that I even been distributed and I've already got your phone
26:04
ring in it. I didn't think this was live. That's so interesting how
26:08
you did that. I'm that good. Damn, I am that good.
26:14
You are that good. I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay,
26:17
so where can we find you? So we can get well. You've given
26:22
us hope. And that is one of the things that every episode always ends
26:26
on with the mesoge of that, because that's my message at the end when
26:27
I you know, I've been fortunate to be on a lot of different shows
26:30
over the years, and they often ask at the end, if there's one
26:33
more thing that you would want to say, what do you want to say?
26:36
That is always my message is a message of hope. Is that there
26:38
is hope. If you're someone who's listening to this and you're struggling with a
26:42
condition, whether it's mental health or pain, or you're dealing with something and
26:47
you feel hopeless and like you have tried everything, I want to assure you
26:51
that you have almost certainly not tried everything. That Kenymine infusions are out there,
26:56
Transcranial magnetic stimulation is out there. Other psychedelic medicines like psilocybin in mushrooms,
27:04
MDMA assisted psychotherapy, you know. MDMA is the active ingredient in ecstasy,
27:08
which is about to be FDA approved next year for PTSD, LSD DMT,
27:15
iahuasca, you know, breathwork, meditation, and combinations of all this
27:19
stuff. There is something out there that will almost surely help you to feel
27:26
better and get through whatever you're dealing with. And so don't give up,
27:29
keep exploring, keep inquiring, and just don't give up. No, don't
27:34
give up. You got that right, because I've hit some spots in my
27:37
life where I almost did. And that little harp string, the one string
27:41
left, I climbed up it, and then I rebuilt my harp and now
27:45
I'm playing music again, and I haven't even gotten out of the pain part
27:48
of it yet. But that's why we're here, you know. And before
27:52
we leave, I was on your linked In profile and was looking at your
27:56
title and I have a question because one of the names or one of the
28:00
things that you refer to yourself in your title on LinkedIn is rapper. Yeah,
28:07
that's right, I told you I had something. What the hell is
28:14
this? Yeah? I know you might not expect it, but it's true.
28:19
Yeah. Are you a ketamine rapper? Does this only happen after infusions?
28:25
No? No, No, I've been That's funny. I've been rapping
28:29
since I was like, I don't know, nine years old. Fun you
28:34
know, writing poetry and rap and freestyling, and uh, it's something I
28:40
love and I've been told I'm not bad at it, so well, I'm
28:44
a I'm an upper singer. So you know, between the two of us,
28:47
we can wrap, we can offer together and rap together during my kedemine
28:52
treatment. That's awesome. That's awesome. We have a patient who has got
28:56
just the most amazing and inspiring story of her own transformation, and she is
29:02
an opera singer and she actually was able to start an opera company after getting
29:06
help from this treatment in a time when she was really unable to do anything
29:10
in her life. And so that's very cool. That's an interesting little wow.
29:15
Okay, well, I love you. Well. We can find Sam
29:18
and his dad and the clinic at Ketamine Clinics dot com. It's in Los
29:22
Angeles. As we said, you can follow him on all the socials at
29:26
the Sam Mandel. It's all Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, website well,
29:30
of course LinkedIn is his rapper too. And TikTok? Are you rapping on
29:33
TikTok for us? Is that why? I have some raps on TikTok and
29:37
I have some wraps on Instagram, And actually I think the only stuff that
29:41
I have on there are freestyles, but they're pretty good and I mean by
29:44
that like one hundred percent spontaneous off the top of my head, not like
29:48
you know, official songs that I recorded. But check it out let me
29:51
know what you think. I love it. I can't wait much for spending
29:55
the time with us and educating us more and certainly taking the fear and safety
29:57
issues out of ketamine therapy infusion, specifically out of us today. So thank
30:03
you so much for your time. It's been great. Thank you Lindsey for
30:04
having me. It really has been a pleasure. I appreciate you. You
30:07
got it. Thanks man. You are exclusively invited to share this hopeful ketamine
30:12
renaissance together. VI I Pain Pain Journey. Let's get to the heart of
30:17
how to heal with you by my side. Do you know someone who is
30:21
living in and with chronic pain? If you do, send them our way
30:25
here to the Pain Game podcast and to Sam at the Ketemine Clinic in Los
30:29
Angeles. We would love to connect with you and hear your stories and help
30:33
give you more strength and give us more wisdom and continue to support your grit
30:37
right. I'd love to have my listeners just just hug each other and love
30:41
each other through this process together. Please follow the Pain Game Podcast. Wherever
30:45
you digest your podcast content, we will be there. Visit us at the
30:48
pain gamepodcast dot com and follow us on all the socials. Thanks for listening
30:53
my little VIPs. Catch you on the other side.