Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / When Your Child Hates the School You Chose [a Listener Q&A]

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When Your Child Hates the School You Chose [a Listener Q&A] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families Podcast. Today, a listener question.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: What do you do about choosing a school for your kids,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: especially when you're moving into high school? Because they've got opinions.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: They're big enough to care, and sometimes we find ourselves
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: in a bit of conflict. That's next, because this is
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the time of year where all those conversations are happening.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Stay with us. Hello, welcome to the Happy Families Podcast,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: where you get real parenting solutions every single day. We
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Every Tuesday on the pod,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: we answer your tricky questions. Anything that you want to know,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: we'll answer it. Family, relationships, well-being, school, screens, discipline. If
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: you'd like to submit a tricky question, we've got a
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: super simple system at happyfamilies.com.au. Just scroll down to podcasts,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: click the record button and start talking. Or you can
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: send us a voice note to podcasts at happyfamilies.com.au. Here's
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: the latest one coming to the mailbag.
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  Speaker 2: Hi, my name's Amy, my 11-year-old son. He's going to
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: high school next year and we've selected a school which
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  Speaker 2: we think will work best for him, but he isn't
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  Speaker 2: happy at all. None of his friends are going and
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  Speaker 2: he's absolutely 100% against it. He has dug his heels
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  Speaker 2: in so deep. He tells me he won't go, that
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  Speaker 2: he will cut up his uniform, that he will stay
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  Speaker 2: home and I will not be able to make him
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  Speaker 2: go to school. I am trying really hard not to
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  Speaker 2: enter the argument because it's definitely not helping me. and
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  Speaker 2: I'm just sticking with what we're doing, that I love
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  Speaker 2: him and I won't do something that's against him. I'm
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: for him, but it's not working. Have you got any
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: ideas of how I can get him to open his
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  Speaker 2: mind to this idea or how it might work out
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: that he comes around to this? At the moment, I'm
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: really worried that we're going to get to the point
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  Speaker 2: where he literally is just staying at home.
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to get in trouble with Amy for
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: saying this, but when you listen to what's really kind
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  Speaker 1: of coming out, at least as I'm hearing it, Amy's
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  Speaker 1: really saying, how do I convince him that I'm right
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  Speaker 1: and he's wrong? And it's really hard with a 12-year-old boy.
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  Speaker 2: To do that.
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  Speaker 3: But that's how we feel most of the time, right?
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  Speaker 3: Because we're the big person in the room.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: We've climbed so many more rungs on the ladder than
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  Speaker 3: they have. We can see so much clearer. Yeah. At
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  Speaker 3: least we think we can.
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  Speaker 1: Totally, totally, totally. But we also can't see the detail
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  Speaker 1: down low because we're up so high.
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  Speaker 3: I was about to say that, and that's what I mean.
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  Speaker 3: We think that we can see clearer. And all of
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  Speaker 3: our reasoning comes from a place of absolute love and
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  Speaker 3: a desire to give our children the very best of
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: what's on offer.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: But like you said, the view from the top means
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  Speaker 3: that sometimes we don't catch all the detail down low.
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  Speaker 1: And sometimes we're absolutely right, but our kids just won't
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  Speaker 1: hear it. I mean, Amy might be bang on. Maybe
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: the school that he wants to go to is horrendous.
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  Speaker 1: So I want to share a couple of ideas before
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  Speaker 1: we literally and specifically answer the question. The first is this.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Force creates resistance. The harder you push... the heart of
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  Speaker 1: your kids push back so we've got to get out
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: of the power play and i like how amy's talking
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  Speaker 1: about how she's expressing love saying i need you to
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  Speaker 1: trust me let's work on this together this is this
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  Speaker 1: is because we have your best intentions at heart winning
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  Speaker 1: however everything that we talk about not everything a lot
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  Speaker 1: of what we talk about on this podcast comes out
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  Speaker 1: of this theory called self-determination theory and a subset of
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  Speaker 1: that theory known as basic psychological need theory basically says
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  Speaker 1: there are three needs psychological needs that we have and
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  Speaker 1: when they're supported we feel good and we want to
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  Speaker 1: go to places where they're supported when they're not supported
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  Speaker 1: we feel bad we want to avoid those places when
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  Speaker 1: they're frustrated right so the needs are relationship or relatedness
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  Speaker 1: competence or capability and autonomy and what i'm hearing in
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  Speaker 1: this question is that two of those three maybe all
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  Speaker 1: three of them are being um flattened they're being thwarted
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  Speaker 1: or frustrated in the eyes of amy's son so relationships
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  Speaker 1: or relatedness I'm not going to be able to be
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  Speaker 1: with my friends, so I don't want to go to
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  Speaker 1: a school where I don't know anyone. But also my
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: relationship with my parents is disintegrating because of this forced resistance. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: because they're not.
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  Speaker 3: Listening to me. They're not hearing what I'm saying.
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  Speaker 1: So not only is school looking horrible next year, but
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  Speaker 1: home is feeling horrible now. Autonomy, I don't have a choice.
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  Speaker 1: I don't have a voice. I don't have any say.
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  Speaker 1: There's no volition in what I'm doing here. I'm being forced,
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  Speaker 1: so therefore I'm not going to do it. I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to rip up my uniform. I'm going to stay home.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to wag school. But also competence. There's a
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  Speaker 1: little 11 or 12-year-old boy who's kind of going, I
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  Speaker 1: can make my own mind up here. I can make
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  Speaker 1: my own decisions. I'm a big boy.
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  Speaker 3: But I think it's more than that. There's a level
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  Speaker 3: of wrestle with the competency because going into a new environment,
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  Speaker 3: it feels hard, right? So our competency is threatened by
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  Speaker 3: the fact that all of these other factors are playing
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  Speaker 3: into it and it makes it really hard to show
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  Speaker 3: up as your best version of yourself. if you feel
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  Speaker 3: like you don't have any friends and this wasn't your decision.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So, so to Amy's question, well, how do I choose
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  Speaker 1: a school and how do we, well, Amy isn't asking
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  Speaker 1: how to choose a school. Amy's saying, what do I do?
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  Speaker 3: We've chosen a school.
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  Speaker 1: What do I do to convince him that we've made
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  Speaker 1: the right choice?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So after the break, Let's spend some time talking about
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: those conversations because if we can get that right, then
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  Speaker 1: all of a sudden the need frustration that we've described
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: can start to shift in the direction of need support.
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  Speaker 1: And with need support, you have a son who no
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: longer feels lousy, well-being goes up, and so too does
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  Speaker 1: an orientation towards saying, all right, I'll give it a go.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I'm open to the possibility that this could work out well.
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  Speaker 1: Stay with us. It's next.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: So I think it's really important from the outset that
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: we let Amy know that she might be hands down
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: right and her son's best option might be this school.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: But the conversation we have determines whether our son is
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: open to that.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: That's the most important thing. It's the conversation that takes place.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's more than just the conversation because he's already decided,
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  Speaker 1: conversation or not, I'm not going to be with my friends.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not going to go where I want to go.
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  Speaker 1: So this can't work. There is no possibility that this
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  Speaker 1: will be good. And he will self-sabotage.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, because he doesn't feel like he's been heard.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the key thing.
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  Speaker 3: And that's where the change happens. Once our kids recognize
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: that you're actually on the same team.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Sometimes as the adult, you still have to make the
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  Speaker 3: hard choice and you still have to go with your
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  Speaker 3: gut feeling.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing that they don't want.
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  Speaker 3: But until they feel completely heard and understood, it's one
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  Speaker 3: thing to hear it, but you actually have to sit
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  Speaker 3: in their shoes and understand what it is that they're
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  Speaker 3: feeling and what they're experiencing. You don't get anywhere. You
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  Speaker 3: just get resistance.
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  Speaker 1: So there's three things that the research literature points to.
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  Speaker 1: And you don't have to be a psychologist to do
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  Speaker 1: any of this. You don't need a PhD in psychiatry
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  Speaker 1: or any crazy stuff. You simply need to be able
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  Speaker 1: to do the following. Number one, explore where he's coming from.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Explore his perspective. So what we're talking here about is
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  Speaker 1: empathy and perspective taking, the ability to feel what he's
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  Speaker 1: feeling and see the world through his eyes. We call
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  Speaker 1: these autonomy supportive behaviors. I know, kiddo, that we've been
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  Speaker 1: through this a few times, but mostly it's just been
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  Speaker 1: me doing the talking and you getting mad.
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  Speaker 3: Or I've heard you, but Clearly I'm missing something because this.
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  Speaker 1: Is really important to you. What am I missing?
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  Speaker 3: What do I still not know?
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  Speaker 1: Yep, yep. So a proper exploration. I recommend doing it
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: with food, like a milkshake or sour cream and wedges
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  Speaker 1: and sweet chili sauce, that kind of thing.
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  Speaker 2: Why?
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  Speaker 1: Well, it just puts everyone at ease when they're putting
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: stuff in their bellies at the same time that they're
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  Speaker 1: having a conversation. I also recommend jotting some stuff down,
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  Speaker 1: like have a pen and paper and say, I want
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: to make notes on this so that I can make
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  Speaker 1: sure that I properly understand you. And when you've listened
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  Speaker 1: and made notes to the point where you can say
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  Speaker 1: to your child, and you don't need to do this
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  Speaker 1: with every conflict, but big stuff like this, this really matters.
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  Speaker 1: And when you show your child that you're taking him seriously,
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  Speaker 1: that's when he's much more likely to engage with you
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  Speaker 1: in the conversation oh my parents are genuinely listening here
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  Speaker 1: i'm going to give them everything they're writing this down
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  Speaker 1: this is amazing.
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  Speaker 3: But not only that once you have it on paper
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  Speaker 3: it's almost like you're able to have a bird's eye
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  Speaker 3: view of what's going on as the child and the
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  Speaker 3: parent shifts the perspective it takes yeah and in some
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  Speaker 3: ways it kind of takes the emotion out of it
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  Speaker 3: because it's now like on.
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  Speaker 1: Paper you do this with all of your big plans
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  Speaker 1: you do this with all like whatever it is and
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  Speaker 1: this is a useful thing to do in this conversation
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  Speaker 1: so make sure that you're across it. At that point,
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  Speaker 1: you know you've got it right when you can say, okay,
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  Speaker 1: so what you're saying is, and then you tell them
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  Speaker 1: what it is that they've said. When they look at
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: you and say, yes, that's right, or 100%, or.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: You get it.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: If they're adding anything, if they're shaking their head, if
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: they're saying, no, you still don't get it, then you
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  Speaker 1: need to start again.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: What am I missing? Let's go over this one more time.
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  Speaker 1: Here's some more food.
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  Speaker 3: Well, sometimes I think that as parents, we are listening
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: and we do get it, but we put our spin
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: on what they're saying. We actually need to take our
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: spin out of the equation. Don't add anything to it.
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  Speaker 3: He says this and you repeat that.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: An example would be, um, I didn't enjoy camping when
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: we went away. And you're like, what? So you're saying
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: you never want to camp again?
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, no, no.
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  Speaker 1: I've just said I didn't enjoy camping. It's that simple.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: We had this very experience when we made our first
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: big shift from primary school to high school. Our daughter
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: went to the high school we thought was the best
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  Speaker 3: for her. But after a couple of months, we noticed
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  Speaker 3: a real shift in her and we were really worried.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: She was adamant she was staying at that school. And
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: we'd spoken with some other family friends. They had their
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: child going to a Christian college and we were like,
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: this might be a good move, but our daughter did
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: not want to have anything to do with it. And
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: so one day I just said to her, why don't
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: you just have a chat with your friend about her school? Like,
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: she loves it. And she's like, okay, I'll have a
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: chat to her if I can have a sleepover. And
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: she started, you know, kind of negotiating how this was
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: going to work. And I said, okay, if you'll talk
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: to her about the school, whatever it takes.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: And then they had a chat and she said, you know,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: it sounds right. And I said, well, what if we
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: organize an experience day there? I wonder if they do that.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: So we contacted the school. They said, yeah, absolutely. She
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: can come along and spend a day here. And at
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the end of that day.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't even at the end. By lunchtime, she
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: was sending me a message going, I found my people.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: I feel awesome here.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: And she went to that school. But because she went
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: to that school and it was so beautiful for her,
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: as our other children started coming up the ranks, it
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: was like, well, we've got to give them the same
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: experience because this is beautiful. But our second daughter who
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: came through, she had an awful experience.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: She just didn't love that school.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: And we couldn't work it out because everyone else was
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: thriving except for this child. And we had said to her,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: just give it a year. And if after the first year,
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: it's still not working out, we'll look at a different option.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: The bottom line was all of her friends had gone
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: to the public school. She wanted to be with her friends.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: We'd heard horrendous things about the public school. We didn't
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: want her to be there. But after a few months, again,
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: noticing her slowly dying, We kind of looked at it
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: and just went, we can't keep doing this to you.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: We sent her to the public school. And in spite
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: of the fact that all of the things that we
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: had heard were true, and it was, for all intents
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: and purposes, an awful environment.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a great spot.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: She thrived.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: She loved it.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: Because she was with her friends. She did well academically.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: She did well socially.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: And it was a big school, which means that even
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: though the school had a pretty rugged reputation, she had
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: some good friends. And so her experience was positive. She
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: was able to avoid the more challenging parts. Let's go
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: back to this because some of that's really useful for Amy,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: some of it less so. Hopefully useful though for everyone
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: who's listening. We want to make sure that we've explored perspective.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: The next thing in the conversation is we've got to
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: make sure that our child actually understands our rationale. Because
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: until they understand the why, they can't buy it. So
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: I think it's worth saying, okay, so you've told me
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff and you've told me that
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: I'm understanding you perfectly clearly. I've restated it and you've
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: agreed that I'm understanding you now.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, cool. This makes this a little bit trickier for
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: me because now I can see your point of view.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: It definitely makes sense to me. But may I explain
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: to you the two or three reasons that we think
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: that this choice is going to be more beneficial for you?
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: And hopefully your child will say, yes, they normally do.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Because you've listened so well to them. And once you
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: explain that, that's when you say, okay, are you open
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: to the possibility of giving this a go? How do
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: we move forward from here? And your problem solved. And
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: it might be, let's give it a trial. But you're
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: not allowed to sabotage it. You actually have to get
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: in there and give it a proper crack. The process
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: really matters. And Amy, the evidence suggests that you will
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: generally get better results trying it this way. Having said that,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: people are complicated. Kids are hard work.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: But I also think it's fair to suggest that if
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: her son's viewpoint would suggest that this actually may not
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: be the best option for him, that just as easily
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: we could say, all right, well, we're willing to meet you.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: where you're at right now. But this is the contingency,
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: just the same way.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Here are the expectations.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: You want to go to that school?
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: You're going to go to this school. This is what
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: we expect. And if you can't meet those requirements, then
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: we're going to go back to the drawing board.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Amy, we really hope that that answers your tricky question helpfully.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for sending it through. If you've got
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: a question for us, Voice notes, podcasts at happyfamilies.com.au or
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: just go to happyfamilies.com.au, click the record button and start talking.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast produced by Justin Roulon from Bridge Media.
• 13:38
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• 13:42
  Speaker 1: family happier, happyfamilies.com.au.