Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 429: The Unfiltered History of Film Distribution with AFM Co-Founder with Michael Ryan

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BPS 429: The Unfiltered History of Film Distribution with AFM Co-Founder with Michael Ryan · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four twenty nine.
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  Speaker 2: The greatest lesson about filmmaking is to never take no
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  Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
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  Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble
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  Speaker 2: by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Well, guys,
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  Speaker 2: today on the show, we are going to talk about
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  Speaker 2: the history of film distribution. We're going to go into
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  Speaker 2: all the dark corners that we all hear about, and
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  Speaker 2: we're gonna hear it from somebody who is there at
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  Speaker 2: the modern age beginning of film distribution. We have on
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  Speaker 2: the show today Michael Ryan, who is the co founder
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  Speaker 2: of the American Film Market or AFM, and Michael and
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  Speaker 2: I had an insanely productive conversation about not only film distribution,
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  Speaker 2: but the different decades and how we were making money
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  Speaker 2: back then, how things have changed, what we can do
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  Speaker 2: in today's world, traps and pitfalls that people fall into,
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  Speaker 2: and I ask them some really hard questions about why
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  Speaker 2: Hollywood accounting exists, why are there so many thieves in
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  Speaker 2: film distribution. How can you protect yourself? Because Michael is
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  Speaker 2: not only a co founder of AFM, but he is
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  Speaker 2: a very very successful film financier and producer in his
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  Speaker 2: own right and has dealt with a lot of the
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  Speaker 2: problems that independent filmmakers are dealing with today. So I
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  Speaker 2: can't wait for you guys to hear this. This is
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  Speaker 2: a fantastic, fantastic episode. So without any further ado, please
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  Speaker 2: enjoy my conversation with Michael Ryan. I like to welcome
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  Speaker 2: to the show, Michael Ryan. How you doing, Michael, I'm good.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you, Yeah, very good.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm
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  Speaker 2: excited to talk to You've lived a very interesting life
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  Speaker 2: in our business. You've done a bunch of different things,
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  Speaker 2: and my very first question is how and why did
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  Speaker 2: you want to get into this business? Is how did
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  Speaker 2: you get into this this insanity that is the film industry.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's a very good question. I started working
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  Speaker 3: for a guy called Colonel David Sterling, who there was
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  Speaker 3: a man who founded the SAS in the Second World War,
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  Speaker 3: so all of that stuff I didn't have anything to
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  Speaker 3: do with that. I was just working as a little junior,
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  Speaker 3: making sales of TV programs and blah blah blahune known
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  Speaker 3: to me. He had all sorts of places in hotspots
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  Speaker 3: around the world which were all based in television stations,
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  Speaker 3: so basically it was supplying private armies. So that was
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  Speaker 3: all quite interesting. I didn't join for that. I just
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  Speaker 3: joined because I liked the idea of being in television
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  Speaker 3: and radio. And then it kind of went from there
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  Speaker 3: and somebody offered me a job. I worked for Lord
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  Speaker 3: then Sir Lord, Sir lou Bray, who was a wonderful
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  Speaker 3: man and taught me a lot of what I gathered
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  Speaker 3: for my knowledge, and I just loved it, and I went.
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  Speaker 3: He went from there into making movies, and some really
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  Speaker 3: big movies too, and I got the opportunity to travel
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  Speaker 3: the world and you know, do the can Film Festival
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  Speaker 3: and all of that stuff, which which which I love.
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  Speaker 3: I have to say, and as you said earlier that
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  Speaker 3: it was the golden age of independent film, and some
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  Speaker 3: of those independent filmmakers became the big major filmmakers that
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  Speaker 3: we have today. And I kind of got into it
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  Speaker 3: almost by accident, but knowing that I wanted to be
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  Speaker 3: in something where I had contact with people around the
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  Speaker 3: world and travel and all of that. So it kind
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  Speaker 3: of worked out that way, and then that led to
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  Speaker 3: producing and financing movies, et cetera, which is basically the
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  Speaker 3: whole of my career, I suppose.
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  Speaker 2: So you were so when you're talking about the golden
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  Speaker 2: age of independent film, you're talking about the seventies, eighties
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  Speaker 2: and that kind of world.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there was this period. There was a
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  Speaker 3: sort of glorious period where if you want to see
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  Speaker 3: a film out to go to the cinema. But that
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  Speaker 3: soon became video the invention of the VCR, and at
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  Speaker 3: that point all of us guys that were packaging and
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  Speaker 3: making and selling TV programs and films realized that there
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  Speaker 3: was a secondary and third and fourth value to these things.
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  Speaker 3: And that's when it became obvious that you could do anything.
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  Speaker 3: Because the money was enormous in those days. It was
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  Speaker 3: a brand new, brand new invention, and people, the big
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  Speaker 3: video companies were competing like crazy, much much bigger hunting
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  Speaker 3: area than what we have today with THEOD and so
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  Speaker 3: the value was in library, the value was in production
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  Speaker 3: and sales, and can at that point was just a
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  Speaker 3: money making machine.
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  Speaker 2: It was ridiculous, No, but I have a little bit
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  Speaker 2: of experience of the eighties in the sense of the
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  Speaker 2: distribution space because I worked in a video store, so
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  Speaker 2: I saw the product moving in, I saw what kind
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  Speaker 2: of movies were being made. To my understanding, at the
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  Speaker 2: beginning of the VHS revolution, just kind of like streaming
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  Speaker 2: as well, and kind of like DVD and everything else,
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  Speaker 2: the main major studio stayed away. They were very kind
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  Speaker 2: of they were kind of like, oh no, I don't
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  Speaker 2: want to just do no, I can't do that. And
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  Speaker 2: because of that it allowed companies like New World, Trauma,
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  Speaker 2: The Full Moon, these kind of B and of course Canon,
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  Speaker 2: these kind of B movies companies to come out and
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  Speaker 2: just own the VHS, own video market. I mean, Cannon
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  Speaker 2: was built. I mean he was making God, those guys
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  Speaker 2: were making scene amounts of money with Ninja Ninja movies.
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  Speaker 3: For guide's sakes, there were those days wre and it
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  Speaker 3: literally in those days, the Cannon boys, you could literally
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  Speaker 3: put a poster on a wall with nothing else, a
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  Speaker 3: couple of names, a title, literally a poster, and you
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  Speaker 3: probably make enough sales during the cam Film Festival in
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  Speaker 3: less than two weeks to finance the movie. So you
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  Speaker 3: sold it on a poster, you ended up with a film.
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  Speaker 2: Fromm what I understood talking to some of those boys
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  Speaker 2: who worked with Cannon during those days, like sometimes they
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  Speaker 2: would just put the name of the actors up and
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  Speaker 2: they didn't have the actor.
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  Speaker 3: Oh no, that was the last thing they did. Mean,
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  Speaker 3: it really was cowboy time. But bless them, you know,
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  Speaker 3: they they spawned a huge industry. They kept Variety, Screen International,
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  Speaker 3: those industry magazines going. You know, you'd have a special
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  Speaker 3: issue which would be two hundred and fifty pages and
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: about one hundred and eighty pages that was canon advertising,
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  Speaker 3: each page a different movie, most of them not made.
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  Speaker 3: Probably most of them never got made, but it was.
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  Speaker 3: It was an extraordinary time, and out of all of
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  Speaker 3: that somehow came some really quality movies that were totally
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  Speaker 3: independently financed and would never have got made in a
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  Speaker 3: major company, which in those days was the only way
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  Speaker 3: to make a movie. So you're right, they did stay
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  Speaker 3: away from it. So consequently it became Gunfight of the
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  Speaker 3: OK Corral. You know, everybody was at it, Mario Casara,
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  Speaker 3: Andy Vanya making First Blood, which made them into multimillionaires
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  Speaker 3: in one swoop with Stallone. I mean, just extraordinary time.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Determinator too in the early nineties as well,
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  Speaker 2: and all recall the Caracal Boys. Yeah, Mario that, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it was, it was, it was. It was really the
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  Speaker 2: wild West. And of course we can't speak about the
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  Speaker 2: eighties without Oriyan. I mean they they were pumping out
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  Speaker 2: Oscar winning movies and RoboCup.
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  Speaker 3: I we were doing a movie with called The Hotel
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  Speaker 3: New Hampshire, which was based on John OAN's book, and
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  Speaker 3: I went had to go to New York to meet
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  Speaker 3: Arthur Krim, who was old dead and he wanted the
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  Speaker 3: movie for North America. And I sat in a big boardroom.
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  Speaker 3: It was all it was, you know. I was a
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  Speaker 3: kid and we were doing the day and he said,
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  Speaker 3: you know, have you've got all these people you say
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  Speaker 3: you've got And I said yes, I'm crossing my fingers
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  Speaker 3: under the table. And he said, well, if you have,
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  Speaker 3: then I'm happy to go into business with you. And
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  Speaker 3: I said, yes, we have. And he said, have you
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  Speaker 3: got a moment And we walked outside into the corridor.
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  Speaker 3: He said, young man, you're either very brave or very stupid.
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  Speaker 3: I hope it's the former.
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  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
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  Speaker 2: and now back to the show. You know, in that comment,
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  Speaker 2: I have to say, is exactly what the film industry
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  Speaker 2: is all about.
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  Speaker 4: If you're trying, like you're either very brave or very stupid, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: to get into this business.
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  Speaker 3: And sometimes you do those two in concert with one another.
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  Speaker 3: It worked. I sometimes still wonder whether Alfur Krim was right.
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  Speaker 2: So and so, you know, I always I always tell
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  Speaker 2: filmmakers about the eighties because I mean, I was a
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: young man in the eighties, but it was just so
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  Speaker 2: much money flowing around in the eighties, and then in
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  Speaker 2: the nineties when DVD showed up, that exploded in a
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: way that it's hard to comprehend today as a filmmaker
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  Speaker 2: and an independent filmmaker, how much money and how easy
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: it was to make money using those formats internationally. And
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: I always used to tell people because I remember seeing
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  Speaker 2: these movies come into the video store in the eighties
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  Speaker 2: and early nineties and literally in the eighties. And please
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  Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong. If you've finished a film,
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  Speaker 2: just finished it on thirty five, Yeah, it got a
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  Speaker 2: release of some sort, you made some sort of money
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  Speaker 2: with it.
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  Speaker 3: Well, there was there was a plethora of you know
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  Speaker 3: that they were video video based or DVD based companies.
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  Speaker 3: That's the way they financed themselves, and there were hundreds
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  Speaker 3: and hundreds of them. They could always get a domestic release,
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  Speaker 3: You could always get a release in the major countries
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: around the world. And those were the guys who eventually
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: became if they were good at it, I mean, if
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: they if they weren't very good at it, they went
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: back to selling second oart cars, which is what they
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: did in the first place, is true. And because of that,
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: because of the opportunity, there was some there were some
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  Speaker 3: really good companies struck during that period, and it was
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: you're right, I mean, I I suppose the reason I
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: sold my company successfully originally the original company, was because
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: we had a very big library, were making some quite
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: quality movies, and people were falling over themselves. You know,
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  Speaker 3: in the days before cell phones. We'd have screenings in
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  Speaker 3: can of whatever we were screening, and people would literally
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: leave the screening early and sprint down the clasette to
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: the Carton Hotel to try and get there before their competitor.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: It was ridiculous, like the gold Rush, really, and it
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  Speaker 3: was extraordinary time. Yeah, it was. We were very lucky
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  Speaker 3: to live through it. And I suppose to establish ourselves
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  Speaker 3: with it, and it really did work very well. We
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: were it was a It was a wonderful period, and
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: it did spawn some really good companies and some really
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: original filmmakers. And you know, if you we all know,
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: if you've got a big bang field, there should be
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: a good team coming out of it. You're picking a
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: few players, and it did and it worked very well.
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  Speaker 2: Now in the nineties, as we come up, I'm kind
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: of going through the history of distribution from basically the
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: early eighties to where we are today. But in the nineties,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: there was this movement that happened that wasn't around in
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: the eighties, which was in a big way, which was
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: the true independent filmmaking movement, which was more the sun
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Dance movement that the rich link Letters, the Clerks, the
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Robert rodriguezz of the world, those kind of you know,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Spike Lee, those kind of filmmakers that came out during
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: that time. When I was talking to forgive me for
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: dropping a name, when I was talking to Rick link
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Letter on the show. He was one of the first
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: to come out the gate in the ninety I think
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: it was ninety or ninety one one, Slacker showed up
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: and he said, when we released it, there was all
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: of a sudden a business infrastructure to support this kind
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  Speaker 2: of filmmaking, which was the VHS world, the video store world.
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  Speaker 2: They needed product because there was I know, it's hard
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  Speaker 2: to believe now there's we are in a sea of
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: product now because it was so cheap to make movies now.
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  Speaker 2: Back then, I told people, I'm like, I used to
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: watch every week what came out, Like I could literally
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: watch all the releases of the week, which was maybe
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: three four five, It was a crazy week, and I
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: would be able to watch every movie that got released
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: in the United States, which was that money. So there
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: was a lack of that. So there was this infrastructure
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: for that moment in independent film. How did the markets
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  Speaker 2: work with these kind of films because they didn't they
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: weren't genre. Some were, but you know, like the John
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Pearson's of the World and obviously the Weinstein's and what
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: they were doing. How did the markets work with this
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  Speaker 2: new movement the nineties, that kind of sundance independent movement.
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  Speaker 3: I think it was almost a reaction against the sort
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: of rather crass approach to filmmaking them.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, the cannon boys the cannon exactly.
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  Speaker 3: And there was that kind of cheapness to it and
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: shabbiness to it, and they were just making films that,
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  Speaker 3: as I said, just you stick a title on the
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: wall and you make it. There was no real content.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: And then people, I mean, you know, we all talk
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: about Harvey in derogatory ways, but there was the positive
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: side to him and the Weinstein Company Miramax before then,
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: and they began to concentrate on quality because they realized
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: there was sustainable market out there for small movies because
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: very little money was one or two actors, quality actors
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: who weren't necessarily big marquee stars, and it became a business,
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: and it really was a business, and those people were
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: able to make movies out of price, and they were
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: sustainable movies that proper film buffs like yourself in those
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: days would be able to go and see and enjoy.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: So I think it also spawned that spawned sun Dance.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I went to the first Sundance. I lectured
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: at that he's you know, placed there on the mountains. Yeah, yeah,
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: I did all of that stuff, and that that was
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: spawned by all of all of those days. Of course,
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Sundance concentrated on the quality and the uniqueness and the quirkiness.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: But it was all there to see. So, as I
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: said earlier, you make enough movies and some of them
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: are going to be little nuggets. And that's how it started.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: And people like Rodriguez and all of those guys, Guarante
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: and but yeah, they all, they all came out of
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: that that pool and established themselves as a sort of
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: shining example of how to do it rather than do
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: it in a crass way. And I and I think
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: really it's established what we have today, which is a
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: huge gulf between the big massive movies that the Marvel
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: movies and things like that, that the Tempole movies that
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: the majors make and some other companies, and that the
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: golf in the middle is enormous, and that that was
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: created in those days, I think by all of the
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: shlock that was being made and then those little diamonds
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: that came out of it, which people like Harvey Weinstein
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: and others, Bob Jay people kind of recognized that, hang
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: on a minute, there's a bit quality here. This isn't
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: going to disappear down down the DVD drain. We can
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: make money out of this and it's sustainable and it
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: will carry on and then it becomes worthwhile on the
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: shelf of your company, if it's part of your library.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: And in a way, that's what we did at my company.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: And we had three or four hundred movies, but there
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: was a there was a top twenty or thirty that
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: anybody would kill to get hold of. So you know it,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: it were all of that huge gold rush formed the
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: quality and those guys benefited from it. I did too. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And then and then also the opening of the international
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: market which was bringing over international films, and I know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: the Weinsteins and Merrimax did a fantastic job of bringing
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: in like a Life Is Beautiful and and a lot
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: of these directors that we had really never heard of
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: in the States in the West and spotlighting them and
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: spotlighting them in a way that that that didn't exist before.
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  Speaker 3: That's right, I mean, you have you know, direcsores like
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: Chavrol and you know Kislowski. Yeah, I mean, and that
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: the international marketplace opened up and people realized it wasn't
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: just to sell American independent movies. It was actually it
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: was actually spurring those people in those differrance germanys wherever
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: they were actually spurring them on to make more internationally
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: acceptable movies even though they were local stories. And I
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: think that helped enormously that the marketplace that Can, the AFM,
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: that Venice, Toronto all benefited by that. And you had
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: this huge conglomerate of people turning up desperate to buy rights,
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: and that became a market and that became a proper business.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: So film markets became not just a sort of cheap
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: film festival. It became a proper sustainable business. And I
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: think that's why the AFM was formed forty years ago.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: But it was formed by all of the professionals in
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: the movie industry thinking we can't just rely on Can
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: and Berlin and Venice. We've got to create something ourselves.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: And it was that that made it work. And still
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: does you know, they all of those people, it's still
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: a traveling circus and they go to three four five.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: Everyone really is a circuit three four or five of
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: those events a year, And it still surprises me actually,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: in the days of doing things like this, that it
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: still works, you know. I mean, yeah, a particular person
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: that likes human contact and I think I can do
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: a deal or make a co production far better if
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: I'm sitting down opposite somebody, We'll.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Be right back after a word from our sponsor. And
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: now back to the show.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: That I can on a camera and a screen, and
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: that still works, I think, and that human equality. That's
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: basically we make films so that we can entertain as
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: many people as possible. But in order to do that,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: you've got to have a team.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: So you were, and you were one of the co
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: founders of AFM.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: If I'm not mistaken, I was indeed, yeah, we yeah,
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: there were, there are a few, there are very few left.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: And it was just literally we realized that at a
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: certain point in the year, which then happened to be
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: February March, we're thinking of there's nothing there in the calendar,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: was a big hole. We could make use of this.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: And they're about ten or fifteen of us that got
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: together and we put up I think it was twenty
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: thirty thousand dollars each, which in those days was actually
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: quite a.
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: Lot of money. God, really, that's a lot of money.
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: How do I do that? Anyway, we did it. A
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: lot of us did it. A handful of us did it.
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: That created funder enough money to make it work, and
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: it worked very well. You know, will it will it
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: survive and prosper as it has done with the pandemic
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: in the middle.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, you know, people have discovered
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: this and they can use this as a tool very effectively,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: but I think people will still turn up to do
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: what they do there.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of like what happened with the film festivals, Like, yeah,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: you can watch a movie on your screen, but there's
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: a thing about a film festival that is is it's
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: very difficult to replicate in a virtual world, at least
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: at least until my generation dies off. Maybe the generations
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: behind me won't understand it.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: But I don't know. I mean, I still you're right,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: I mean it is it is a generational thing. And
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: i'd still my friend's kids, some of them, some of
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: them like you and I are still becoming dumbuff. So
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: maybe there's hope. But there's still that sort of collective
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: sense of seeing something special in a special place, and
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: whether that's all.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Communal, a communal and a community, it's.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: A communal experience and it works for a lot of movies,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: especially forrilla horror comedy, But that collective experience really works,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: So I don't think that will disappear. What might disappear
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: is is like film festivals in certain places that aren't
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: going to work. You've got to be very special to
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: have a film festival that people want to travel thousands
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: of miles to and spend loads of money. But if
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: you're a producer, it's by far the best way to
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: look to launch a movie. If you're launching it, to
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: launch it to the world and press, that's one thing.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: If you're launching it to sell it as a whole
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: other exercise. But all of those things are possible at
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: the right festival at the right time, and if you
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: get it right. I've done it hundreds of times. You
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: time it right, and that's in the lave of the
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: gods most of the time. Is not because you're so clever.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: It is it is it ready in time. And if
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: it is ready in time and it's the right festival
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: and you get the right reaction, then it works. And
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: it still does work, and I think that will continue
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: to work as a marketing tool. And it works the
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: other way. I had a movie. I had a movie
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: with Timothy Dalton and Valerio Galino. It was a historical
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: thing and a very good director whose name now escapes me.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: And we got into can because it was a French
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: co production. So I think the friends strangled giljac God
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: to get it in and having got it in, and
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: we had a great screening in the if. I thought
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: the movie played terribly, I was there the following morning
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: in the press. The one of the reviewers, very clever,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: he said, I thought it was strange that in at
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: a strange point in the movie, in the middle of
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: the film, there was clapping until I realized that people
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: were leaving the cinema. It's the sound of the seats
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: doing that as they left. That was it. The film
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: died that very morning. It died and there was no
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: way back. So that's the gamble, isn't it. You know,
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: it's a great opportunity. You get it wrong, Jesus, you're
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: really screwing well.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: And I think what you're saying is there's value. What
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: you're saying in regards to festivals. There are five, maybe
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: ten in the world that matter. Yeah, and the rest.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: But what's happening now is which is kind of encouraging.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: It kind of works alongside local production, and you know, Netflix,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: the streamers are getting involved in this. They're making films
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: in strange places where they want to launch their own service.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: So you're getting Portuguese language movies at the Kino Faso
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: Film Festival. So that's that can work, and it can
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: work in a in a sales producer type way in
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: that you identify it, make small film, you get, go
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: to the right places within a twelve month period, and
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: you can make sales and find distributors in each of
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: those places. So as a kind of local exercise, it
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: still does work. If you've got you plan it properly
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: and you're lucky, it does work, and so I think
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: that part of it will carry on. I think that's
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: part of an exercise and marketing exercise that that we
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: can still use and if you use it intelligently, it works.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Now, I love to talk to you about the Netflix effect,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: because when streaming showed up, just like everything else that
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: happens in our business, when VHS showed up, everyone's like
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: as a fad, when DVD shows up as a fad.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: When streaming showed up, they're like, oh, this is never
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: really going to take off. I mean, because I remember
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: logging into Netflix streaming. Oh it's horrible. Their movies were horrible.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: They had nothing, They're no licenses there, nothing was It
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: was atrocious. I'm like, how is this. I ain't gonna
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: go anywhere I even did that. It was in twenty twelve,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: I think it was or twenty eleven when it came out.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: But the impact is I haven't seen an impact so
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: massive on our industry in a I mean, you could
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: argue VHS was it was kind of like a if
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: VHS was an atomic bomb. Streaming was basically the nuclear
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: version of that twenty times Hiroshima kind of seismic shift.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: And it has completely changed our business model. It is
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: devalued the movie because now before the movie, I always
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: tell filmmakers this, I go, look before our movies were
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: worth twenty four ninety nine then retail, then they were
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: worth three ninety nine for rental, and then when t
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: VOD showed up, okay, we still can get nine ninety
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: nine and maybe two ninety nine if your HD maybe
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: three ninety nine, and there was still some value there.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: But now are movies, generally speaking, and we could talk
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: about the details of it, are worth less than a
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: penny per view. And before it used to be three
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: nine and nine. So it's become almost unsustainable as a
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: business in the independent world unless you go down bigger
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: stars selling internationally. You have to become much better at
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: your job. Where like we were talking in the eighties
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: and nineties, a car salesman could come in and make
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: a fortune and not really know anything about the business.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Throw up a couple ninjas and we're ready to rock
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: and roll. Yeah, So what would you as your thoughts?
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Well, I think you're right, I think, but I think
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: what the sort of secret ingredient, if you like, is
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: is enormous public funding, very clever people who've structured proper companies,
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: and that the car dealers and the VHS traders were
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: as you said, originally, you know, they were from nowhere,
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: and in a way the majors shunned it because it
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: wasn't a business that they understood wanted to be, and
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: it was rather tacky. Netflix and the others, Amazon whoever,
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: have made it into something massive. Obviously, I mean, it
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: is so huge. Nobody really understands it. I don't think.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: I'm sure they do, but it's the money is utterly massive.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: It's mind boggling, and I think that's it. They've got
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: a corporate structure that works. They've got banking and shareholders
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: and investors that work, and it's become a beer moth
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: that that it just carries on working, and I think
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: it's kind of indestructible. It's very difficult, despite what they say,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: to sell a movie to Netflix, because they want to
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: own the world. And if you're doing what I do,
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: which is co production, et cetera, you're putting together that
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: jigsaw puzzle all the time, and at a certain point
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: in time when a Netflix comes in, it doesn't really
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: work for them because they're going to own the world.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Who said, hang on, I've got France, Germany, Spain and
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: Italy already in I'm not going to kick them out
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: because they're part of my structure. So it kind of
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: doesn't work together. Occasionally we do big business with them
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: on a North American deal or a UK deal or
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: a part of Europe, but generally it's very difficult to
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: do that. And despite their announcing that they're spending you know,
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: twenty five thirty billion on acquisitions, it's more we'll buy
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: that and what we'll own it and we'll take it
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: off your hands guff, you know, and will maybe include
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: you for a little share, which they don't, so that
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: that that will carry on, I'm sure, and they'll keep
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: making those movies and some of them, let's face it,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: a bloody good you know, we're at a time now
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: where you're looking at I don't know.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Or stranger things just that alone.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, look at what's that
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: that's done to the world, what it did for Kate Bush.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show. I was about to
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: say Keith Bush, I'm like, who was Kate? Like I
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: heard of her, but now my kids are like, oh
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: I need to hear Keith Bush. I'm like, what, We're
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: in the upside down, Michael, We're in the upside.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: It is. I mean, I used to like her way back.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: I thought she wrote great music, and now she can't
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: believe that. She's like, I'm a bloody grandmother.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: For I'm the hardest song in the world.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: What exactly, And by the way, it's a bloody good song.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: It's just I listened to it almost every day. I
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: love like my kids have it playing all the time
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: in the background.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think Netflix will carry on, it will change it,
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: and only the biggest will survive because we're at the
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: point now, I mean all the early days, I suppose
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: right now where people's own home economies are really struggling,
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: when you see what is happening in the UK and
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: where people can't afford to heat their bloody homes. So
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: the last thing in the world they're going to do
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: is to have more subscriptions to more streaming platforms. So
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: it's going to slim down to one or two and
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: h three, that's all it's going to be. Everybody's going
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: to have Disney as they've proved. Yeah, yeah, probably everybody's
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: going to have Amazon and Netflix, but I'm not sure.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure about the rest. The rest will be specialized.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: I guess there's always that room.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like it's I mean, HBO Max now they're bringing.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: They're going to combine it with Disney Channel and the
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Disney Discovery Channel, so that's going to be a much
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: bigger beast. Maybe like HBO might be in that mix.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: But I agree everyone has Prime. I mean, so Prime
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: is already there. Netflix is Netflix. Netflix's Netflix, and you're right,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Disney Plus came out like a like a juggernaut, and
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: if you have kids, Disney Plus is and if you
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: want Marvel, if you like Marvel, Star Wars, any of
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: those other It's not like.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: If you said to your kids, you know, okay, I
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: can't afford to go out and buy dinner. So it's
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: either dinner or Disney Plus.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: They be Disney Plus. There's a question.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: It's kind of sad, but I get it, and I
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: think that will carry on. But it's going to be
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: interesting how I mean, we've seen how many people Netflix
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: are laying off, you know, so there is going to
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: be a swimming down. I don't know how that works,
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: or how they then trim their production acquisitions budgets or
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: maybe they boost them. I don't know. I mean, it's
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: my way of thinking. If we are making a movie
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: and we're financing it and they can buy the rights,
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: that's a hell of a lot cheaper for them than
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: spending they you know, I find mak a movie for
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: twenty five. They're making a movie for fifty five, and
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: that's just the way it is with the overhead they've got.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: So it makes sense to me that to carry on
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: acquiring I suppose I would say that wouldn't I but
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: it still does make business sense to me, and we
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: still do do it that you can't rely on that.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: So what you can rely on is selling a few
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: major territories with the talent you've got and the director
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: you've got, the script you've got, it's always a story.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: And then at that point you have the basis to
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: go to a finance or a bank and say, here's
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: the collateral we want to borrow a gap from you.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Here's the given, here's the way we do it. Here's
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: the jigsaw puzzle. That's still possible, thank god. And that's
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: how most of the independent movies get made now, so
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: that will carry on, But I don't know which way
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: we go. We still well. Even today we were talking
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: to Netflix about a movie that they've just brought from us,
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: about changes in cast and all of that. So they're
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: a good partner to have. Let's basically they've got deep pockets.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: But it's very difficult at the end of the day.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: I suppose what I've always lear action to people, and
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: what I have always the thing I've tried to drill
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: into people is that it's all about quality. It's about
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: the story, and if you make a film, you make
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: a good story. People are going to come and see it,
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: aren't they. So I think I don't think that will
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: ever change. I think that the financial financing structures will change.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: And you know, banks come in and out of the
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: movie industry like they go in and out of a supermarket.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: It's it's a strange business being a bank or a
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: financial entity within the film industry because you have to
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: be you have to be a real expert. I mean,
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: you know, I've I've worked with banks who when they
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: when I've either sold my company or they're out of
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: the business, that you look at the bottom line that
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: they've made. It's huge, and that's my movies. You know,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: they've made much more than me. But in a way
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: they deserved it because they've been financing it. So it
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: still works. I mean, there are banks that are still
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: wanting to be in it. Thank god.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you this. So and the elephant
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: in the room in regards to what we're talking about,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: which is distribution in general. And I've talked heavily about,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: you know, distribution and protecting yourself from bad deals and
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: all that stuff. I'm assuming in your day you might
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: have signed a bad deal here or there, you might
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: have been taking advantage of I'm just guessing along your
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: journey as a film producer and financier. So I just
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: i'd love to ask you because you've you have this
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: history in the business, and you know you were there
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: at the beginning of AFM and everything. The concept of
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Hollywood accounting, which has been talked about forever and is
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: before AFM. I mean, they were doing Hollywood accounting back
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: in the thirty I think the second Chaplain showed up,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: they were doing Hollywood right. That's why they started United Artists.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: That's why they started United artist because they got they
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: got what they So in your opinion, I mean, you're
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: at a different level. You're dealing with you're at a
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: professional level, at a higher level. You have the contacts
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: of different territories you can sell and get paid. But
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: for independent producers coming up in today's world, how are
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: they expected to build a business that is sustainable if
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: they're constantly being taken advantage of or just opportunities aren't
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: as relevant as or open as they used to be.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very tough. I mean, reputation is one thing,
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: because if you're supplying product and somebody tries to screw
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: you that you're not going to go back to that person.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: So that that's but that you have to build, and
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: that's a reputation you have to build. There's belonging to
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: i FTA, which is the organization that organizes the American
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: film market. They have a structure where they'll go out
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: for you and write letters to people and say you
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: don't do this, you're not going to be going you'll
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: be barred from the next American Film market whatever. There
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: are certain procedures that you can make. It's very difficult
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: there there. If you go through a bank to finance
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: your movie, they'll have a certain amount of power to
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: because they will be borrowing against the contract that you've
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: made with this particular person. I think it's all about
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: background and knowledge research. It's it's very important to know
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: who you do it, who you're doing business with, and
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: how they're doing. You know, if they're doing badly, are
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: you going to go in and do a million dollar
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: deal with them, because they're probably not gonna be able
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: to pay you. So you've got It's all about knowledge
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: and knowledge that is the thing that takes you through
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: the bad times. And I think that really matters a lot.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: At the end of the day. If you're a little
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: independent and you go out and making a film and
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: you know nothing about anything, and you don't use a
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: sales agent who then will do that job for you,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: it's really really difficult. You might have some sound interference
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: because there's a huge rainstorm going on there.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Fair enough, you're in able, and I expect that, sir.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: It went from a Sunday afternoon to boring with rain
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: and hails. It's very nice. So I think it is difficult.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: I think there are certain procedures that you could process,
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: that you can go through, and protections that you can
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: give yourself, and a lot of that is choosing the
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: right sales agent to work with, because they'll have a
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: You're a one time filmmaker. Each film is made on
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: its own and you're not going to be churning them
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: out or selling them, you know, five to six every
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: film market. So I think that's probably important, just talking
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: to the people that know how to do it. It
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: will always happen. There'll always be a company that goes
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: bankrupt without you knowing that it was ever going to happen.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: It will be surprised for everybody. You know, Sinny world,
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: I mean tell oh yeah, it's a difficult business, but
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: there are things that you can do. Most of it
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: is talking to the right people. And I think if
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: you're a first time, second time independent filmmaker, you have
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: to go through a sales agent with a report good.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: A good, good reputation with the salesge Yes they can take.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: You to Yeah. I mean you get into trouble with
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: going to a sales agent and just won't give you
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: the money, and I know lots of those occasions. You know,
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: it's it's it's a shame and it's something the stains
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: that our industry. But let's face it, every industry has
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: their thieves. But I mean there's there so you can
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: go to ifter and say I've approached this sales agent,
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: what do you know about them? And they'll tell you
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: you know. So it's it's using all of the checks
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: and balances are out there. You just got to use them.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: If you just go out there and sell your film
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: just sort of bits and pieces, it's going to be
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: a mess. So it's all about organization.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: Now. The other thing I love about the whey you're
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: presenting your this conversation is that you look at movies
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: as a business person. First you're looking at it as product.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show. It doesn't seem like
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: you have emotion attached to your project. I'm sure you
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: enjoy them, especially some of the higher you know, the
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: bigger acclaimed ones that you have as emotional, but at
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, you still it's this is product,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: and you're approaching it that way. Where so many filmmakers
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: walk into a FM or a can or venice with
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: emotion leading with emotion of their movie this is my baby,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: and nobody wants my baby. And then when the first
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: shark shows up and go, oh, I love you, Oh
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: like someone likes me, and all of a sudden, I'll
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: sign whatever you want in your movie is God for
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: twenty five years.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right, that's exactly You're exactly right. And when
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: we're supposed to be there to look after those movies,
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: if we if we foster those movies and take care
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: of them, we hopefully will do the next one, the
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: next one, the next one. What I love to do
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: and we need people to be passionate about their product.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: I'm passionate about certain things that we do at the day.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: It has to be a sustainable business if we're going
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: to keep carrying on, and they've those people have to
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: understand if you're spending five hundred and six hundred million
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: dollars on making your passion project, you aren't just going
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: to make it for your mum and dad. You're going
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: to make it for people to see it. And in
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: order to get people to see it, you've got to
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: get people to get it out there and give them
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: the ability to see it, and that means selling it
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: and selling your baby. And there might be things that
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: you don't like, but they somebody like me might know
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: better than them about how to market it. And you know,
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: a lot of the time we do. You know, it's
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: like I don't say that, that's ridiculous. You know, here's
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: here's the way it should be sold and oh I
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: don't like that image as I shut up, this is
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: what you do.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Let me put the poster that's going to sell this.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: Which leads me to a great I was. I was
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: consulting a filmmaker the other day and they had a
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: film that was under one hundred thousand, beautifully produced, nice genre,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: not a very genre esque. It was an action wasn't
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: this you know, has a little music in it, and
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: it's kind of you know, it did a little bit different,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit different. And they said, what do I do?
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: How much do you think I can get for this
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: in the marketplace? And I said, you're not going to
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: make any money. I straight, like straight, I'm like, look,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: you will not barely make If you make one thousand dollars,
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I'll be impressed. And he's like, what do I do?
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: And I go, okay, so this is what you need
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: to do. Because I go and since it's such a
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: low budget, I think Avod is a really great place
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: for him to make some money. But he has no stars.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: So I said, go out, find a star, pay them
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: ten thousand for the day, shoot them out in the day,
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: get permission to put them on the thumbnail throughout the
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: movie so it doesn't look like you just shot up
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: for two minutes and put them on the poster. Really
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: make a part of the movie and do that. And
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: that's exactly what we're doing right now. We just locked
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: in the actor. We're talking to the distributor who I know,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: and we're packaging this whole thing and they're like, if
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: you have this guy in your chances of making money.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: There's no guarantees, but the chances of you actually see
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: because now you have a face on that thumbnail that's
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: passing through that you go, oh, I love that guy.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: And you know, unless you're unless it's Brad Pitt.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: You know, because at the end of the day, unfortunately
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: where we are in today's world, it's all about the
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: sixteen x nine thumbnail flowing by in either TVOD, AVOD
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: s FOD. It is so so important and filmmakers don't
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: understand that. Would you agree with me.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would, especially at that level. We have a
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: small division called Evolution Pictures and we concentrate on around
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: that level, and there always has to be a recognizable
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: actor otherwise it will not sell. And the only way
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: for you to sell it if it's good is to
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: go to film festivals and to spend money promoting it.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: That's going to cost you more than getting an actor
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: in for a few days, right, So it does pay
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: it if you can do it well, do it professionally
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: and with those sorts of movies. I think I understand
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: the sort of movie you're talking about. It's fairly easy
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: to do if you can get the right guy, and
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: it just gives a face to the campaign and it works.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: I mean you you can't do that in a you know,
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: I've got I've spent seven million. What do I do now?
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: It's like what you're on now, you know you're done.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: If you spent seven million done.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: But smaller budget movies, it gives you. It gives you
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: scope to be able to do that. You can you
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: can say to everybody, Okay, stop, you know we're going
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: to get this guy in and we're going to fit
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: him in here, here, here, here, and here. You know,
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: you're you're seven million on a filmmakers it. You can't
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: do that to my movie, but you can with this,
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: and I think you're right. It does work. The only
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: other way is to spend huge amounts of money on publicity, and.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Even then you it's it's such an echo chamber right
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: now that the studios are having problems getting awareness for
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: their two hundred million dollar ten poll films. That's why
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: they that's why they buy brea ip that everybody knows.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: You're like, you know when Thor is coming out, because
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: everybody knows Marvel, you know, the next Star Wars or
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: the next Star Trek or the next Harry Potter, because
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: these are all ips that we all know, so it
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: becomes easier to market that. That's why something like Avatar
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: that was done over a decade ago wasn't anomaly a
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: brand new, five hundred million dollar, brand new IP with
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: no major major stars in it. I mean, I mean
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: obviously Sigourney Weaver and any but winners, that does justify
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: five hundred million dollar movie.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: No, it's and it was still a pump because the
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: actual take thinks they were using with groundbreaking and nobody
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: did ever do it. So would they do that again?
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: Probably not. I mean I can't see them spending that
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: sort of money today, it just.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: On a new ip.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: But like talking about the marketing, a lot of filmmakers
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: are like, oh, I have thirty thousand. I'm like, take
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: that thirty thousand, hire an actor that we all recognize,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: and that's your marketing budget. You've already invested in your
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: marketing budget by hiring an actor that people recognize, because
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: that's going to do more than thirty thousand dollars in
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Facebook ads when you really don't know how to do
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Facebook ads.
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: No, you're absolutely right, and it will. It will appeal
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: to those distributors that distribute those sorts of movies, and
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: the first question will be, well, who's in it? And
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: you know, if you ain't got the one person that
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: they might be looking at, then you're dead. So you're right,
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: it's the ideal way to structure it. And if only
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: they thought about it in the first week, they have,
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: they've thought about it in time now and you're okay.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: There was this one movie I worked on when I
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: was doing post production super vision where I was posting
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: on a movie and I was fascinated to see this
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: that they they had one the main star who was
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: not the star of the movie, but the face that
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: we all know, right, And they shot him out in
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: one day and they were in they were in a
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: parking lot, so it was the way that he was
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: like the informant or something, and that the cops had
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: to keep coming back to this to the garage to
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: meet with them. So he was beautiful structure. He was
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: dabbled throughout the entire movie, so you don't feel jypped.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: And then the rest of the movie, which was very
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: well produced and very well shot with actors that we
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: just don't know, worked out great and because his face
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: is on the cover sold so like that easily. And
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: that's what filmmakers don't understand when I try to just
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: yell from the top of the top of the hill,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: please hire somebody that we recognized. Even my short films
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: that I did as a director ten years ago, I
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: had Robert Forrester in it, Hendrickson in it. I had
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: you know, other faces that people recognize. That it gives something.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: And by the way, if you're trying to get into
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: film festivals, film festivals love having faces and stars in
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: their movies because they're in the asses and seats business.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got You've got lots, Lance Fredrickson, who who says,
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: you know who, I'll come you know, And you say
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: to you know, say to the festival director, I can
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: get him to come for three or four days. Great,
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: you're in.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Can you fly him out? Can you fly him out?
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Put them up and lands like, yeah, sure, I'll come out.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: That's the way. That's the way the business works. A
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: lot of people don't understand that. It's it's that's a
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: fairly simple structure. You get him to agree to go
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: to the festival, he'll probably have a great time.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: They'll treat them like they'll treat him off like loyalty.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he'll he'll be treated like brag pit brad Pitt,
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: which doesn't always happen. As we know, it's it still
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: works and it's still it's still that tob something thing.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: It's back to the Cannon boys, you know. They they
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: they did it all all the time, and it worked
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: every single time. You know.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Michael the Path just showed up and Chuck Norris just showed.
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: Up there you go. I mean we did it way back,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: god long time. The First Highlander, which we did, ye yeah,
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Christo turned out to be a classic movie, but we
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: we won. It was such a strange movie because it
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: was we had a Frenchman playing a Scotsman and we
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: and we had Sean Connery, a Scotsman playing a Spanish nobleman.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: But we we thought.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: We needed Michael, Michael, there can only be one. There's
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: only could be one.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: You see, you see how well that campaign worked. But
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: we needed Connory and he was going anyway. We agreed
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: and it was half a million dollars a day for
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: five days, yeah and any any and any days after
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: that was a further half million. So we said, okay, fine,
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: and we did it.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Obviously presold the movie did very well, and during the
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: shooting of the movie there was a technical problem and
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: we needed him for two extra days. That was another
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: million dollars.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's good money if you could get it.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: But it worked, and you know, if we hadn't had him,
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: it wouldn't have been half the film it was, you know,
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: and he was really worthwhile. And he you know, the
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: guy was great, and he's Shank Connery. I mean he
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: was shot going her exactly. And out of that I
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: got a call from a Japanese advertising agency his Suntery
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: whiskey mhm, and they said we want him as you
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: know in his highlight the costume, which is magnificent. I
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: wanted to advertise our whiskey. So I went to him
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: and said, you know what do you think that I
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: don't do adverts?
• 51:00
  Speaker 5: Okay?
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: So I went back and they said tell him it's
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: a million dollars and he said, no, no, no, I
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: don't get out of bed for him a million dollars. Anyway,
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: this went on over a week. In the end they
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: in the end they paid five million dollars and the
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: stipulation was that he wouldn't speak, he wouldn't have to
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: drink the whiskey. And the only place it could play
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: was in Japan and Southeast Asia, and they said yes,
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: And it must have worked because it's still playing the
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: bloody air every time I go, every time I go
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: to Japan going like that, and he doesn't drink the whiskey.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: I guess for him it was quite a nice experiment.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Do you remember do you remember? I don't know if
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: you know this. This is just a side note. Do
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: you remember in the eighties, Madonna was hired by Pepsi
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: to promote to promote her. Do you remember that whole story? Well,
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: she she went on the set and they're like, okay,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: now drink the Pepsy and I'm like, I'm not drinking
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: the pets. They're like, but we need you to drink
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: the Pepsi. We hired, You're like, hired me, but no
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: one told me I had to drink it. And she
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: they they scrapped the whole thing, and they still paid
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: her like ten million dollars or five whatever it was.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: They didn't do it because.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: They didn't do it because she wouldn't drink it. She
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: was so really, I mean, I don't know why she
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: did that, but she knew that she had that power
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: and she just wielded it and she just got paid.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: And they never because contractually and never said that she
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: had to drink the pepsi.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know how many lawyers got fired over that.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Oh lawyers, ad executives. Oh my god, are you kidding me?
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: The whole thing wasn't.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: I didn't I knew about the Pepsi thing. I didn't
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: know that they canceled the whole thing because of that.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: I don't think, I mean, they might have done something
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: else later, but I know that spot was changed, Like
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: you know, because I started off in commercials and it
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: was legendary. It's one of those legendary stories.
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: You're like stick story. Probably she probably said I only
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: drink Coca Cola.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: I only drink coke. Now, if you want to put
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: the coke in the Petsican, I'll do that.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: Can you imagine?
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine? So with the with AFM, I wanted
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you. Now, you're obviously one of
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: the co founders of it. You've seen a change over
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: the years. I being in the in the glorious golden
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: ages of the eighties, when how many days was it
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: was like ten days or something like that was like.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: It was ridiculous. It was far too long.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: It was long and money was flowing.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you could do what you like and you know,
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: you'd stay in fancy hotels in Santa Monica or you know,
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: I'd stay in the bel Air hotel. Ridiculous things to do.
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: And now we've cut it down to I think it's
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: five plus a building day or something like that, right exactly,
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: dimmed right down. It's the right length. People can go
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: home at the weekend, you know, it's just in the
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: midweek period. It's much more, much more doable. I think
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: now I've looked at the number and there's a lot
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: of people surprise me actually be thinking about the economic
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: world at the moment. But it's building quite nicely. All
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: the bigger companies have signed up for attending, so it
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: might be I think it'll be a nice surprise. I think,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: you know, the Can Film Film Festival this year was
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: wonderful because it was like going back to those those
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: the heydays of can even though the money wasn't falling
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: all over the place, but people were there and people
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: were doing business and people were enjoying themselves. I think
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: that's the thing. This is a hard business. And if
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: you're going to somewhere like Santa Monica, you you quite
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: like to get out and go and have a nice
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: meal somewhere. And that's yeah, it's part of what we do. Otherwise,
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: we'd do it in a boring exhibition center somewhere.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Right, you'd be in Vegas somewhere or somewhere, and.
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: You'd lose all of the Hollywood nish about it. You know,
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: it just wouldn't It just wouldn't be the same. And
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: we find that a lot of the international clients will say,
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: don't take it downtown, and they don't don't take it
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: anywhere else. People we go to Hollywood once maybe twice
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: a year, and if we want to go, we want
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: to go to Hollywood. We you know, we want to
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: go and see the people that we normally see. Plus
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: go to the AFM. So that's where it's going to stay,
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: provided that you know, begin to come.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: The first year I went to AFM, uh, it was
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: so fascinating. I was I was there covering it for
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: the show, uh, and it was before I started did
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: I started doing talks there and things, and I just
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: remember walking into the hotel and I looked up and
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: I saw a chi banner that was Mike Tyson versus
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Steven Seagal, and I said, oh, oh, I understand where
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: I am. Now I'm like, okay, this is and that's
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: And then filmmakers come in expecting to see art and like,
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: this is not art. You are not in an art
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: place anymore. This is business on business. Don't bring your
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: art film here. Don't bring your backyard you know, you know,
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: personal film here. That's not where. This is your No,
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: unless you've got Steven Stagall fighting Mike Tyson in your
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: personal drama, no one cares. No one cares that I
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: can't remember. Oh yeah they made it. Oh no, that
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: movie came out. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I mean Stevehn.
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I won't talk about seem scall that he has enough
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: stuff talking about him. But let's not let's not let's
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: just leave that as this. But look, but look at
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Mike Tyson, which is such an interesting guy. He's not
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: an actor, but he's one of the most famous human
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: beings on the planet. And now he's like, I'm gonna
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: do action movies that wasn't.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: People will turn up for that. I mean, of course
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: they will fascinated by him.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Here I saw the fight. There was the movie. He
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: was a bad guy fighting. Oh god, I forgot the
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: kung fu master from China. But he's a legendary actor.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: He's up there with Jackie Chan and he fought Mike
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Tyson in a beautifully worriograph fight sequence, and I was
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: just like, see, that's just it, just you know there,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: that's the kind of movies you're going to find at AFM.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: You're not going to find these art house films. You
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: may find some, depending on the distributor that might be
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: interested in that, but generally speaking, it's all about money,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: selling territories, making deals.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: You're exactly right, And it's the deal making that people
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: like me go for because I don't do you know,
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: shark movies or whatever. I just don't do that for you, sir.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: And I know Paul Paul who makes those movies, and
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: he makes a lot of money, and he does a
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: brilliant job and they're really funny. I can't do that.
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: It's not me so and you'll find and that that's
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: the problem with publicizing the AFM. You know, variety will
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: go in and see all this stuff sharks and Mike
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: Tyson's and Steven de Gal and but it shouldn't be
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: because there's a business there. And if you look at
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: some and if you look around that the attendee companies,
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: the people who are who were exhibiting there, there's some serious,
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: bloody companies there, so they might like. So what happens
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: is that people will turn up and they'll buy those
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: little bits and pieces, you know, the shark maadows and everything.
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: But at the same time that they're there to do
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: business with age twenty four, they're there to do business
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: with the bigger companies that make quality movies. And that's
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: still going on because it when we formed it, the
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: sort of twelve thirteen fourteen companies that were the original
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: investors and the original creators of it were very classy companies.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: There was no block then. But the shlock came in
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: because they saw an opportunity. And it's still part of
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: our business and it's a legitimate part of the business.
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: And I kin'd of cherish it because I love those
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: shark movies. I mean, it's a great idea and they've
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: made I don't know, six of them, seven and eighteen, I.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: Mean always I sort of like the priest that was
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: a velociraptor, the alligator that turned into like I mean,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: it's just that it's that spawn sornadles, spawned an entire genre.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: It's of these these films.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: And then there's the Asylum Boys or are are are
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: basically the the the children of the Cannon Boys.
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: It's a good company assignment, but they're doing it really
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: well and nothing wrong with that. And as we said
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: much earlier on, you've got enough of that stuff bubbling
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: away and there's bound to be the quality filmmakers coming
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: out of it, and you cherry pick those. You've got
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: another business, So it does. I'm glad that the bigger
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: MGM are coming, you know, they're all signing up now,
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: and I'm really pleased because it means that it will
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: carry on. And I you know, we didn't build it
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: to just have a little, you know, a little market
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: that runs for a few years, forty odd years, and
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: I think it will survive and I think it will
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: carry on, and I'm just pleased to see that quality
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: companies are supporting it.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: Will be right back after a word, from our sponsor
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show. So you'll get everything
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: from Asylum to A twenty four and everything in between.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: And that's because that's filmmaking. I mean, there was. Roger
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Corman was around for quite some time and he was
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: making very interesting films, to say the least.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: When I was first chairman of IFTA, Roger was on
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: my board and I'm thinking, hang on a minute, Roger
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: Corman is on the board that I'm chairman of. That's ridiculous.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: But he he was. Oh I'll tell you, I could
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: sit there and listen to those stories forever.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: The man's om and you want to talk about filmmakers,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: he spawned all of them.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I know. He really is the godfather
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: all of it. Is an extraordinary man, softly spoken, really classy.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: I found there were like it was a big board
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: at that point. It was about twenty people, and they
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: hung on his every word because he's very quietly spoken
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: and so that they'd sit and listen. Rather different from
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: Lloyd Kaufman, you were.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: In my mind, I was about to say Lloyd A
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: little bit different approach Lloyd, But you know, I mean
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: I've spoken to Lloyd on the show, and then I
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: tell you, like, he's an interesting guy because he makes
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: those kind of trauma esque films. Yeah, but when you
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: go back and watch, like Toxic Avenger, the first one
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: that was shot on thirty five, released theatrically and had
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: a social commentary to it.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: Toxic Avenger was really you know, it was a socially
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: aware picture. Not not that I really appreciated it because
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: I had an office at the Carlton Hotel at that point.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: Now, oh god, he.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: Organized these bloody great, big parades of all these monsters
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: and that I was awful. Every fucking day, twice or
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: three times a day they'd stand in front of my.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Own But he made but he was able to do
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: what he I mean, I love him, God bless him. Man.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: He's able to do what he's able to do, and
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: and he can't take anything away from from him.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: You know, he speaks god knows how many languages he speaks, Cantonese.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's so smart.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: He's fascinating.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: He's an intellect. That's what's so fascinating about someone like Lloyd.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: And like when I talked to him, I was like, yeah,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: I think he's like Ivy League. You know he has
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: an Ivy League education. He's extremely intelligent, but yet he's
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: like Lloyd. He plays this part. It's it's just fascinating
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: It was in the same year I think it was Yale,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: same year as George Bush Right.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: He told me that yeah, yeah, yeah, he.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: Kind of said, don't tell anybody that for me.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: He was he was he shot behind the scenes of
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: Rocky did he. I didn't know that he actually was
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: there during the step scene because there was the first
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: time they were using the steady cam and in a
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: big movie, right before Shining, and he was there shooting it.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: And then he's like, oh yeah, MGM just called me
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: up and they're doing some new release and they were
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: asking for my footage. I had to go into the
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: archives and find all this footage I shot of that stuff.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: I was like wow, I mean, like, what what is
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: going on?
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: He kills me?
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: I know he's fantastic, But Michael, listen, I'm gonna ask
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: you a few questions to ask all of my guests. Well,
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: first of all, before we get to that, when is
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: the AFM. How can people sign up? Where do they go?
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: They can go to the IFM website. I think it's
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: Americanfilmmarket dot com. They can sign up there. It starts
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: on the first of November for I think five days,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: first six that's right, and it's very simple and we've
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: kept the price down for individuals registering. If you're a
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: producer and you've got something interesting and you want to
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: pack digit, that's a reason to go. You'll find people
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: like me sitting there and you know, why not come
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: and say, oh, by the way, I've got this thing.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: I might say not now, thanks, but there's everybody you
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: will want to see, from filmmakers to bankers to equity investors.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: That everybody's there. So it's up to you to take
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: that opportunity. It's really not very expensive if you join,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: if you pay your full entry price, you'll get access
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: to over one hundred panels and speeches and stuff like that.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: So you' and that's really worth it just for that.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, oh, I know I'm doing I'm doing some
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: of the panels. It's it's so valuable stuff.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: Though.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: I think for anybody who wants to make a film,
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: has made a film, is in the middle of making
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: a film, just go and even if you're just soaking
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: up the atmosphere of it there. It's just worth it.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean there are so many people that
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: you can see in in five or six days, so
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: I think it's worth it and easy to buy a ticket.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: And it's so educational just even if you walk the
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: halls and see what people are doing and selling and
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: how they're marketing it. It is such I always tell
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: filmmakers you haven't gone to AFM, go to FM. Just
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: take the day path and walk around, and that alone
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: will show you what the marketplace looks like for independent
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: film in the world that we live in.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. It just changes your whole focus. If
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: you think if your tunnel vision making your movie, don't
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: do that. Just go and see how this business really
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: works and how it's financed and how it sustains itself.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: And it is fascinating. And the ticket price alone is
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: worth it. For the panels and discussions and if you
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: can sit there all day learning stuff, I'd like you.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: I'm on a few alex and you see the people
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: that turn up something, Wow, that's amazing. You know, they've
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: got these panelists and it's great, great people, the people.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: As an independent filmmaker, you won't have access to as
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: an individual. But you can sit there and listen to
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: what they're saying, and I think it's great. It's it's
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: really valuable information.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: Now I'm going to ask you those few questions. I ask, well,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: my guests, all right, what what is the lesson that
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: took you the longest to learn? Whether in the film
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: industry or in life.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, I suppose it's a film film business centric. It's
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: the time that you should say stop. Whether it be
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: in the middle of the process or whatever. You come
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: to a point where you're trying try and try and
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: try and trying, and the best thing to do is
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: to say, you know what, let's stop right now. So
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: one of the one of the financers might say, well,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: but we're going to lose one hundred thousand. You say, well,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: if we carry on like this, we're going to lose
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: one point one million. So is it best to stop here?
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: And that took me a long time, and I've done
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: it only, thankfully on two or maybe three occasions. Where
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: you get to a point where you're pushing a square
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: peg into a round hole, it's just not going to work.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: That all of the actors are saying no, you're compromising
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: In every single place, whether it be the production assistant
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: or the accountant or the designer and the actors. Then
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: you just stop, don't do it. That's so, that's it's
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: a brave thing to do. It took me a long
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: time to be able to do it.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: So being able to be brave enough to cut, you know,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: cut the line and go stop. Yeah, very very good advice.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: Now let me see here three of your favorite films
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: of all time.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: I knew you were going to say that. I think
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: Cookoo's Nest probably. It is usually a lot of my list. Yeah. Uh. Second,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: in the it's it's probably I mean, this is really crass,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: but it's probably Citizen Kane simply because you kind of
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: look at it and think that's perfect. And thirdly, I
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: don't know, interesting, very difficult to choose, isn't it.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: I think I think The Shining is probably.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: I literally have a cinematographer of the Shining up behind me.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: I'm a huge I'm huge Koober. Yeah, I'm a huge,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: huge Kubrick fan. And that is a masterpiece.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I just I think that's probably quite
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: a good three.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: That's that's a solid three, sir, that's a solid three.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: And lastly, what advice would you give to a filmmakers
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: starting out in the business today.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: I think story is really the basis of everything that
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: you're going to do, and if it's not, if it
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: doesn't hang together as a good story, that anybody you're
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: pitching the story too would sit and listen. If you
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: don't have that, you're never going to have an audience
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: or watch it anyway. So why why put yourself through
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: all that misery? I think story is it And also
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: there are two parts to it. One is the story
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: in the first place, in the very first place, and
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: almost just behind that squeaks in just second is what's
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: the audience? Who are you making it for? And that's
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: I find I mean a lot of film schools and
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: stuff like that, and so many people don't ask themselves
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: that question. Who's going to see this? Right? And how
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: many films have you watched? Thinking why the fuck did
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: they make that? What's the point?
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, we'll be right back after a word
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: So many what were they thinking? Who on earth would
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: want to go and see that? I literally the first
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: the first sort of rounds of you know, when you
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: do those speed dating things at film schools and you know,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: you have like twenty meetings in a day, and it's
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: I remember, I remember a couple of times when I
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: was pitched. There's supposed to pitch you the story that
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: you don't know anything about it, And there was one
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: I went to the Gorway Film Festival and I had
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: two Swedish director producer team and it was basically the
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: pitch was a it's a murder story and it contains
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: it's about a brother and sister and it's incestuous relationship.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: Oh good, that's very marketable. Okay, fine, okay, thanks, Next,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: there are some very strange things.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: It's Chinatown and it's not is what you're saying, Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: And you really have to struggle to find out what
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: the hell it's all about and why you would make it.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: In the first place. So I think those two things
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: are it's a story because what you had to do
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 3: in that story, and secondly, what's the audience. I don't
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: know why people, anybody would make something without figuring that out.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: Oh that's a that's very simple. It's ego.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: That's always I think, you know, it's fascinating to me,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: So that's going to be fascinating to everybody.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: Wow, you know, yeah, I mean look, even people like Spielberg'scorsese,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: Coppola have fallen to that trap where they think I
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: can make a movie and everyone's going to love it
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: because I love it. And then you look at something
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: like nineteen forty one and you go ooh, that.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: Was nineteen forty one was the one I would cite
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: as well.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: Well, right, I mean, Spielberg has a pretty flawless filmography
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: generally speaking, but nineteen forty one was that He's like,
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: I could do anything. I could even do comedy. Let's
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: bring the biggest comedy start. We're going to do this.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: It's going to be great. And it boy did a
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: die on the Yeah, it was shocking. Shock and then
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: so and then then and then you have something like Cats.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: Oh Christ Listens reminded me of It was the worst
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: worst explores of my life. And I was one of
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: the My wife at the time was an investor in Ivita,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: so she got invited into all these different lifts. So
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: I went to the very first premiere of Cats on stage.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: No Cats, the Cats, the musical. It was. It was amazing. Uh,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: and then to many years later get to go and
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: see that movie. It was excruciating.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: I have I had to just really with the best,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 4: the best quote ever for Cats, the best review it's
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 4: the worst thing to happen to cats, to cats and dogs,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: and that was.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: Like the best, the best. There was a Twitter review
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: and I was like, that is brilliant, and I with
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: something like when something like Cats comes along and it
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: doesn't come it comes once in a generation really, where
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: you have Oscar winners around, all the money in the world,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: everyone is just moving forward and it comes out being
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: so bad with so many good people in it and
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: behind it. It's not her, it's really it's the Heaven's
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: Gate of of exactly that. But I actually only saw
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: twenty minutes. I couldn't I couldn't pass the roach dancing
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: scene or the cat anuses flying around. I'm like, what
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: is what is? What is going on?
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: They ever look anatomically at a cat? I mean the
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: tales growing out of their assholes. I mean it's just.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: Did you see did you see when? If the effects
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: weren't finished on duty Dench and like her digital wristwatch
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: you can see her watch or something like that, because
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: I didn't finish the effects.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: And Judy Bench curled up in a cat basket. I mean, really,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: I can't.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: I mean it's it's it's maybe one day, uh, you know,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: I'll take some sort of substance and watch the entire thing,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: but I just can't. I could. I just like, I
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: can't do this to myself. I'll watch I'll go back
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: and watch The Room, which is arguably one of the
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: worst films ever made, but yet it's so bad. It's good.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well there are those, but this this was just
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: excruciating me bad and I again, I went to the
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: bloody premiere so I couldn't leave. You were stuck there,
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, and worse.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: Michael, it has been such a pleasure talking to you.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on the show, and
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: thank you for all your your your you're champion of
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: filmmakers and films over the course of your career and
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: trying to help filmmakers make some money what they're prot.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: That's what we're all trying to do, you know. I say,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: it's great to be in this business, it's great to
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: have an artistic bent, but christ you've got to make
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: some money somewhere. And I'm trying to I'm trying to
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: help them do.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: That as am I serve as am I my friend?
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: Thank you, my friend, Thanks a lot, see you.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Michael so much for coming on
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: the show and sharing his knowledge with the tribe today.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Michael. If you want to get
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: Forward slash for twenty nine. Thank you so much for listening, guys,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: to you soon.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: Screenwriting dot tv.