Latest / Crew Collective / Searching for Utopia: Do you Dream of Terra-Two? ft. Temi Oh

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Searching for Utopia: Do you Dream of Terra-Two? ft. Temi Oh · Crew Collective

• 0:00
  Stuart: Sometimes science fiction can be a disorienting genre. We're often dropped into worlds we know nothing about. We're introduced to characters with otherworldly abilities. We even encounter a species entirely of the creator's imagination. And even if the stories themselves are less sanity, they still exist in alternate universes with different roles than our own.
• 0:22
  So when a work of science fiction sticks more to reality, it stands out.
• 0:28
  Temi: Because I'd read, like, a lot of space novels and I felt like that was what I was missing. But at the time, I remember just thinking, how does it feel? I I just felt like there was this emotional side and I felt like the only way to help the reader to connect with exactly how it would feel and really be able to put themselves in that scenario is to change almost nothing except for that they're in space.
• 0:54
  Stuart: In Timmy Oh's debut novel, Do You Dream of Terra two? She imagines a world almost exactly like the one we're actually living in with one major difference. Space exploration is a full century ahead of where we're currently at. So when an Earth like planet, Kara two, light years away is discovered, humans obviously decide to try and colonize it. The novel follows six teenagers and four seasoned astronauts who have been chosen by the UK Space Agency to make the journey, which, by the way, is supposed to take twenty three years.
• 1:29
  The book starts off with the astronaut's last day on Earth and from the get go, is a tense story.
• 1:35
  Temi: I was definitely thinking like sort of the the moment of the launch is like the highest point of like joy and triumph in their lives and then they're kind of recovering from it for a long time afterwards.
• 1:49
  Stuart: After it came out in 02/2019, Terra two won an Alex Award, was nominated for a Nomo Award, and received critical acclaim, particularly from outlets like NPR and The Guardian. From there, it launched Timmy's career to new heights. She's since written another novel, multiple screenplays, and has more book deals than the hopper. My name is Stewart, and this is Crew Collective, a podcast all about storytelling. Each episode, we explore the stories that help shape us.
• 2:18
  Books, movies, songs, nothing's off limits. We'll talk to creators about their process, their craft, and the worlds they build. In season one, we're exploring space stories. So that's where Timmy's novel fits in, and my conversation with her is next.
• 2:44
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• 3:14
  Build amazing software that people trust. Learn more at gravity.com. And we trust you enjoy Crew Collective as much as the team at Rocketgenius did making it.
• 3:25
  Stuart: And now, my conversation with science fiction writer, Timmy Oh, about her debut novel, Do You Dream of Terra Two?
• 3:36
  Temi: I had the idea just before I turned 19 because it was that the year I took off before I went to university. I was working at a bookstore and the office the the manager of the bookstore said, what are you gonna do tomorrow? Today is the last day you're ever gonna be 18. I remember just thinking, it's the last day I'm ever gonna be 18? And just thinking like I was on the cusp of adulthood and leaving all my siblings behind and going to university and I had this slight real feeling of loss all of a sudden even though I spent the whole year just so excited to leave everyone behind.
• 4:07
  So I was thinking about, like, that feeling, and I'd read a couple of space books. And my main question at the time had been, like, how does it feel to leave everything behind? Like, do they miss Earth? Do they miss their family? It's a real commitment to go on a long journey.
• 4:23
  So, yeah, my idea for Territory kind of came from a mixture of those inspirations. I have these characters who are 18, 19, and they've been picked for this mission which will take twenty three years to colonize an Earth like planet. They'll be the first. No one's ever seen, like, foot there before. And it starts on their last day on Earth where they're thinking, what am I gonna miss?
• 4:43
  And, yeah, and a tragedy happens on their last day on Earth. And then the book sort of follows that and their journey.
• 4:52
  Stuart: One thing that jumped out to me that became very clear, I think, pretty early on into the book, and I imagine other readers had a similar experience, was that for as far as science fiction goes, this was a pretty grounded story. I mean, it's the world we live in. I guess with the one thing being different is that space exploration is a good full century, if not more, ahead of where we're actually at. But other other than that slightly altered timeline, this this is is very, very grounded, which I'm curious about that decision because, I mean, sometimes science fiction can be very disorienting.
• 5:31
  Temi: Yeah. I think because I'd read, like, a lot of space novels and I felt like that was what I was missing. I mean, since then, there have been a lot more that have come out that have probably addressed this. But at the time, I remember just thinking, how does it feel? I I just felt like there's this emotional side and something about space that makes you think about death since it's obviously, like, such an inhospitable place, and loneliness and solitude, but then also this human frontier.
• 5:59
  I don't know. It just seemed like a really emotionally rich setting. And I felt like the only way to help the reader to connect with exactly how it would feel and really be able to put themselves in that scenario is to change almost nothing except for that they're in space, if that makes sense. So I have all of the same real world references and is London and the Olympics happen? History is the same except that, yeah, space exploration is about a 100 years more advanced.
• 6:30
  Stuart: I I would have not guessed you were that young when you wrote it just because reading it felt like an adult writing about their early adult years in retrospect. And I guess where I'm going with that is, like, space itself, it's, you know, here they are, they're all amped up, they're ready to go, and then they get there. And they're like, well, is, you know, we we like the idea of it, but this is this is kind of bleak and adulthood can kind of be like that a little bit too. Yeah. Mean, in every job, every yeah, every job in every industry sounds great until you you're you're out into it, then you're just kinda like, oh, jeez.
• 7:07
  Temi: Yeah. I I was definitely thinking, like, sort of the the moment of the launch is, like, the highest point of, like, joy and triumph in their lives, and then they're kind of recovering from it for a long time afterwards. I don't know. Maybe I was just a very morbid, like, 18, 19 year old.
• 7:28
  Stuart: Yeah.
• 7:28
  Temi: I think it probably also comes from the fact that, like, I personally don't have I like to travel, but, like, I really don't like to be uncomfortable, and I don't have, like, that much wanderlust. Like, I feel like my characters are always, home is the best place. It's good to come home. So I don't know. It's a whole tale that basically says, don't bother going to space.
• 7:50
  Stuart: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it is it is, like, pretty intense. And, I mean, I think by the time we're introduced to Astrid, I believe it is, or Juno, I think, who was a little more hesitant to go, the twin sisters. You know, Juno was a little more hesitant to go.
• 8:06
  You kind of introduce that conflict pretty early on when she's feeling like, oh, I'm going to miss all these foods we have down here on Earth. I'm going to not see my family, routines that I've come to love. So it sets a pretty tense tone, I think, from the very beginning. I mean, you kinda sense that potential conflict really really from second chapter on in.
• 8:30
  Temi: Mhmm. Yeah. I think I was definitely wrestling with that, like, yeah. The excitement about being the first, but then the regret.
• 8:38
  Stuart: How much research went into this? You said you did all you you know, as a college student, you learned how to do a lot of research. Yeah. How much how much went into this? I mean, you it sounds like you had a pretty good practical understanding of of what life would have been like in outer space and to say nothing of the amount of training and preparation that went into it.
• 8:57
  Temi: Yeah. Read lots of astronaut diaries, so I was thinking about that. And then because I did a neuroscience, that's kind of a biomedical degree, I'm always just very interested in, like, the body and how the body responds. And in my final year, we got to choose a module. So I chose, because I I was writing this book, I chose to do extreme physiology, which is basically what happens to the body in extreme scenarios.
• 9:24
  So when you go to space and come back, or if you're diving, or if you're doing a marathon in really hot conditions. And for that, we got to interview someone who is a recruiter for the European Space Agency, and he talked about, like, how they recruit astronauts and how they train and the effect of it going to space and then coming back has on your body. And we also got to go into a human centrifuge, which pilots train on, and it spins your body around so you can experience, like, a high amount of g force. So I remember going into that, and they they film you while you're in it, you can see your classmates. And because so like right now, we're obviously we're in one g and they'll I think they I don't know what the maximum is, but they can crank it up.
• 10:10
  And I think I got up to like three and a half g when I started to feel really sick. And if you lift your hand up, it feels like three and a half times as heavy. And you also see your face, it kinda melts. And I remember our course leader saying, like, you'll see how you'll look in the future. Because, like, you it was just like, your face is kind of hanging down with this gravity.
• 10:33
  I was genuinely I was sick for about two days afterwards. But that sort of physical sensation of undergoing that acceleration and then how horrible it felt when it stopped, the like inertia kind of feeling. Allowed me to like mentally ground myself in the body of my characters when they're launching into space. So it definitely sort of informed that.
• 10:54
  Stuart: What kind of feedback have you gotten from other like scientists, professionals, maybe astronauts? Like has has anyone, like, reached out to you and been,
• 11:03
  Temi: feedback from astronauts. They're very serious. Yeah. The head of extreme physiology seemed impressed by it. So the the same course leader who took us on this trip.
• 11:16
  So so that was gratifying.
• 11:18
  Stuart: Yeah. I'm always curious, like, when someone is is kind of blending well, like, for example, like, I read The Martian, like, a year or so ago, and I liked it. But, like, it was also just kinda like, alright. Well, this this is a science lesson too.
• 11:30
  Temi: And Yeah. It's it's very technical, that one.
• 11:33
  Stuart: Yeah. Was more maybe it's just me being the more creative type. I was more interested in the journey of Mark Watney than I was the palpability of actually living on Mars. Did you struggle with how much science to to to include or the kind of details?
• 11:52
  Temi: Yeah. I think that always is the hard thing, especially when you go in having done a lot of research. And then you you do have to remember that, like, you've I've chosen to write fiction for a reason. Fiction is to entertain and to tell a story. And sometimes you'll think, okay, this would make more practical sense or scientific sense, but then does it tell a good story?
• 12:17
  So I think it's constantly balancing. Even just things like, would such mentally unstable teenagers be chosen for this trip. But it's like, well, if they're completely if they're if they're completely calm in every scenario, then that would be a dull story. So I don't know. Sometimes you have to just make decisions because you have to remember that, like, as a storyteller, you're there to entertain, which I did I feel like there are definitely people who like, that saying that and saying those priorities is kind of, like, sacrilegious.
• 12:50
  Like, no. You have to stay true to the science. But yeah. I I think that there's a reason that I chose to write fiction and not sort of science reporting or
• 12:59
  Stuart: Yeah. I mean, speaking of those teenagers, there's also for for adult I mean, older adults, I guess, on this mission as well, did did you ever consider writing from their perspective at all, or was it always gonna be like, are the six youngsters. They're going they're really going through it, I think more so than than the older folks. Yeah. I I I'm not I'm not even really critiquing that.
• 13:24
  I'm I'm just curious why This
• 13:26
  Temi: what's so funny about, like, you saying that you felt like it was someone older writing it. Because when I was that age, I just could not imagine how it would feel to be 30 or 40. And, like, I I there are so many scenes where my editor would say, what would the adult say in this scenario? And I think, what would they say? Now if I wrote it, yeah, for sure, I probably would have weaved in their perspective.
• 13:54
  And in my book that I'm writing that I've written now, not with a bang, it's a family saga, and I have the parents both the parents' perspective. But I just genuinely, like, at that age, didn't feel like I had the ability to do it at all. Yeah.
• 14:06
  Stuart: I was crunching the numbers at one point and realized I I'm probably about the same age as Commander Shepard was. Yeah. So wow.
• 14:15
  Temi: Yeah. I remember just thinking like, he has a kid. What do people with kids think? And like, yeah. Yeah.
• 14:20
  Now I have kids. So I could I could probably I could probably write about leaving your kid behind. Like, that's that's also emotionally rich territory.
• 14:35
  Stuart: Again, just another observation I had. I think one thing that made that makes Terra two such a unique novel is you in some ways, get away from the typical hero's journey. I mean, it's there, but I I don't even know. Are there are there even, like, actual heroes and villains in this story? Because it kinda seems to me like we kinda get introduced to a character, we start to like them, and then they do something really awful or annoying.
• 15:00
  And so there's there's different at different points, you know, throughout the story. I or at least I found myself attached to some characters at certain points and then very annoyed by them later on. And that's kinda true to life though. Right? I mean, people we know and like disappoint us, redeem themselves.
• 15:18
  People we don't like surprise us at times. And and I felt like I kinda had that experience with these characters.
• 15:25
  Temi: Oh, I'm I'm glad that you say that because definitely as I was writing it, I was trying to bear in mind in each point of view that everyone thinks they're the hero. And then, yeah. So I I didn't want it to be too clear that, like, some people were heroes or some people were villains. And I I wanted it to be that when you're in their perspective, can really understand their point of view. But then when you see them from the outside, I don't know, they seem monstrous or mean or selfish.
• 15:50
  Because I was I was having a lot of fun with, like, that's the joy of novels in particular and that you can be in someone's head on the inside and the outside, which isn't an experience that you can really have any other way.
• 16:05
  Stuart: Do people ever, like, reach out to you and say, like, I really identified with with this character or this one? And I found myself drawn to Jesse, even though I don't think he and I are we don't have the same background at all. I don't I don't know how much we have in common. He he just was a character to me that was the most interesting. Do do you get that kind of feedback from people?
• 16:27
  Temi: Yeah. And sometimes it surprises me who people feel like, oh, the main characters or the characters who it's really easy to connect with. Yeah. And I I seem to hear like a range of answers. There isn't really just one.
• 16:39
  Okay.
• 16:40
  Stuart: Interesting. I mean, this this might be a loaded question. I'm sure you've gotten it too many times. But who who do you feel like you were most connected to?
• 16:49
  Temi: Yeah. It's funny because well, definitely at the time I was writing it, I think I felt like probably closest to Juno. And then I felt like Astrid was kind of a little bit Juno is so g the I have the twins, Astrid and Juno, for people who haven't read it. And Juno is, like, very pragmatic, very type a. She's obsessed with, like, laws and rules and systems.
• 17:15
  Definitely, like, at the age I was writing it, I had more of that character in me. She's quite judgmental as well and not very forgiving or sympathetic to other people, which I guess makes her, like, not always very sympathetic either. But then she's like, she's very good at her job. She's very efficient. She's definitely the kind of person that you'd want with you on one of these missions.
• 17:37
  And then her sister's kind of the opposite. Like, her sister's really intuitive and very emotional. She makes decisions that are kind of just sort of like driven more by faith really than like logic. And I guess I just kind of separated out, like, kinda made a more extreme version of like what I was at the time, which is like this nerdy science student, and that was, you know, and then something that, like, I felt like I wanted to be, which is just, like, yeah, I I guess a little bit able just to make choices that were based on faith alone and not I've crunched the numbers and this is the right choice to make.
• 18:18
  Stuart: At times, Terra two felt like an allegory for religion. The whole idea of leaving everything behind for a destination that may or may not exist, not obvious, but not subtle either. For a topic that can be as polarizing as religion, Timmy handles it with nuance and compassion.
• 18:37
  Temi: I I definitely had that in my mind when I was writing it. I was thinking about a leap of faith and how the journey to go on the journey is a leap of faith, and also hoping that the reader has to make certain leaps of faith when they're sort of following the characters.
• 18:51
  Stuart: It it's a pretty compassionate you take a pretty compassionate view on religion, which not a lot of people do. I mean, it's a lot religion's one of those things. There's not a lot of nuance. It's usually people are either kinda come down very much against it or or very dogmatically, like, you know, believing in it very rigidly. You kinda found that, again, what felt to me like a pretty good, I won't say middle ground, but you were compassionate towards Astrid who was pretty gung ho and really taken a leap of faith.
• 19:23
  Temi: Yeah. I'm really glad you think that. Because, yeah, I had been thinking that when I was writing it that definitely in the past sort of like twenty, thirty years, whenever I saw a story with like a religious character, it felt like I'd see them represented quite negatively. Yeah. And I did have a lot of I have a lot of sympathy for her faith.
• 19:45
  And that if you're on a really long journey, it doesn't it might not necessarily like, all of the characters basically need to have some kind of, like, belief system. That's the thing that sustains them. And but Astrid is the sort of, like, quasi new religion that she's made. But like, I don't know. For Igor, it's how much he loves space and how he wants to die in space.
• 20:08
  And Kai, it's like, he's very scientific. He believes in what he's doing. I don't know. But I basically think that anyone who wants to do sort of an extreme feat of endurance needs to have some kind of belief system, and that's where they're going to draw their strength from. And if they don't have that, as some of the characters don't, then their ability to endure the suffering will collapse.
• 20:35
  Stuart: I mean, I think the whole idea also of just going and establishing a new Earth brings up a lot of ideas and themes. And I think there's that one scene where the teenagers are all hanging out on Domocles, and Domocles, for the listeners being the name this craft that's carrying them to this new planet. And Juno drafts this document that basically lays out the society they're going to live in. And she imagines almost like this communist utopia kind of thing where there's no private property, everyone's equal, that kind of thing. I think the idea of utopia in general is such a common theme that you see in science fiction.
• 21:19
  Were you thinking a lot about you know, Utopia when you when you wrote this or dystopia maybe?
• 21:25
  Temi: Yeah. I definitely was thinking about Utopia and if you could start society from scratch. And and just like what an amazing, like, I don't know, opportunity it would feel like. But then, I guess, like, how it's kind of a bit tragic anyway because she's like, we'll get to this new earth and we'll make a dream society. But they basically are do have a society, which is like the the group of them on the Damocles.
• 21:55
  And then it's not it it they're not making it a dream. There are there are lots of flaws that they're not overcoming, and there are loads of conflict that they're falling into, and it's kind of so it seems doomed already to think, well, if you can't make this work in this small space, this few people, then how are you going to do it on another Earth in, like, forty, you know, in, like, a in twenty years time, you know, when you're in your forties?
• 22:27
  Stuart: So quick editorial note here. If you don't like spoilers, I'd highly recommend pausing this episode right now. Go back and read the book, and then come back here. The episode will still waiting for you in your feed because we're about to spoil the ending. So don't blame me if you don't take heed of this advice.
• 22:54
  Temi: The ending is actually what came to me with the whole idea. I was like, it'll be their last day on earth and we'll never know if they if they make it. Yeah. And it it was, yeah, it was really intentional because I was thinking about faith and belief systems. I really wanted by the end of the book for you to like understand the odds, but then love the characters so much that like I was hoping at the end the reader would go, I don't know if they'll make it, but I'm just I'm just gonna believe they will.
• 23:27
  Because, like, it would be sad to imagine them all dying out there in space.
• 23:31
  Stuart: You're always rooting for for characters no matter what they do, I feel like. Yeah. I I think it would have been really kinda odd actually had they had they actually made it. But I I bring it up. I read I'd read I found a Reddit thread.
• 23:44
  I I don't know if you ever, you know, follow stuff like that where people were like, love the book, but I didn't like the ending. But I'm
• 23:50
  Temi: like, I I love the ending. Even my sister was like, so do they make it? And I was like, do you think they make it? And she's like, but you know though. You know.
• 23:58
  And I was like, I know what's in the book. That's what I know. But yeah. I don't know. I it's interesting because I always feel like I feel like especially these days, everything goes on too long.
• 24:13
  Like, everything is more seasons than I need it to be, or I find out the next decade of someone's life, and I really enjoy those stories personally. Maybe this is because I am a writer, where, like, there's enough space for me to imagine. I feel like that's a gift. That's how I feel. I may I think I could be in the minority since I consistently get emails saying, and when's the sequel out?
• 24:39
  Stuart: You can't really ruin a character with a sequel. I mean, I think, like, maybe the most, like, the most infamous would be, you know, like, do you really want a character to have an Atticus Finch, like, story arc where he he kinda has you know, he had a good ending in To Kill a Mockingbird, and then we find out later, like, what he's become, and you're just kinda like, no. Like, why did you why did she do that?
• 25:00
  Temi: You know? I think so. And I feel like the ones that stick in my heads are the ones that I still have some questions about. So, yeah. I I felt I felt like yeah.
• 25:11
  So I felt that. I I think the thing was knowing that they wouldn't make it, how to make it satisfying was the thing that I was really stuck with. And definitely part of it is just like expectations, expectation management. So like throughout the story, think like one of the first hints they're not gonna make it is when I have Astra's point of view and they launch. And I say something about how it was a dream something about how it's like the dream to make it to Terra two, that that launch was its highest point of realization.
• 25:42
  So I was kind of trying to say that, like, this is the best it's gonna get for her. This is the closest really she's gonna be to achieving her dream.
• 25:52
  Stuart: Well, and she's the one, again, who I I I think had probably, you know, the broadest arc in that she's the one who most wanted to go. She did a really, really terrible thing in my opinion, essentially ruining any real chance the the crew had of of escaping at one point. I mean, was that was it was a horrible, horrible thing to do. And then redeems herself by essentially and I'm I'm curious why why you sent her back to Earth. I mean, she referenced the story of Abraham and Isaac making the ultimate sacrifice and almost like this bargain she made with God, like, I'll do this if you save my sister.
• 26:29
  It was it was it was really, really sweet and heart wrenching in some ways. And I mean, was that I mean, that's that's one of the classic stories, I guess, from the Old Testament. Is that is that has that always been special to you?
• 26:40
  Temi: Oh, it's interesting. That's definitely one that's always stuck in my head. Yeah. Especially because you learn it when you're a child, but then or at least I did. I learned it when I was a child in like Sunday school.
• 26:50
  Yeah. About Abraham being told sacrifice your son. The one son that you've wanted for so long because, like, I'm above I'm above that, but for God. And then God sort at the last moment saying, actually, you don't have to. But I remember just thinking about being Isaac and going up there.
• 27:08
  And then even if you weren't killed, having the moment where you saw your dad and he genuinely was gonna do it. What does that do to your relationship forever? I don't know. I've just always had that in my head. But also just that ask, the, like, what is it you love the most?
• 27:25
  Can you get rid of the thing that you love the most? So when I got when I was getting to the end of the story, initially in the early drafts, I'd had the idea that, like, Juno goes back to Earth, Astrid goes to space. But then as I was writing, I realized, no. No. No.
• 27:40
  It has to be the other way around because Juno is just there because of Astrid. The thing she loves the most is her sister, and the thing that Astrid loves the most is Terra too. She has to give that up. That's the that's the ending.
• 27:55
  Stuart: What what is it like to be in a very, like, traditional medium in a world that's like seems like seems like I mean, because I struggle with this too. Like, I wanna say we're being left behind, but it does feel that way sometimes.
• 28:10
  Temi: I mean, I think it's just worth remembering that, like, we're part of a really ancient, like, human endeavor, storytelling and conversations that and audio, like for you, that's like this is the the medium that it's being transmitted to people, but you're it's like part of satisfying just like a really normal human craving for connection and to hear stories. And and that probably isn't something that's likely to change because it's kind of an integral.
• 28:47
  Stuart: Yeah. I mean, they've it's you know, writing has survived for thousands and thousands of years. It's probably gonna continue to do so.
• 28:55
  Temi: Yeah. I mean, you know, the the fact that it's, like, on a Kindle or on a screen might be different, but, thousands of years ago, it was sitting around a campfire and telling each other stories. And I think you probably I think you also have children, but I just noticed it, like, my daughter, how much she wants to hear stories and tell stories. And she'll be like, the cat sat on the bed, and I did this. And I think that the medium and the technology around it might change, but we're always going to have this craving to hear a story.
• 29:28
  And also to hear it repeated is another thing. Like, the idea that, you know, there there are, like, some essential stories, and there's a reason why we keep telling the stories over and over again. It sort of, like, satisfies something inside of us.
• 29:48
  Stuart: Ever since Terra two was published, Timmy's kept at it. Her second novel, More Perfect, was also well received by critics. And when I spoke to her a while back, she just finished writing her third novel and has a book deal for a fourth. Even though we didn't really touch on it in this conversation, Timmy's an award winning screenwriter. Her short film, Murmur, won a broadcast digital award, and she's also written for Castlevania on Netflix, a CBBC series called Silverpoint, and other stuff you've likely seen such as Doctor Who, Black Panther and Overwatch.
• 30:21
  Still, I'm probably selling her short, so if you go to her website, theonlytimio.com, you can learn more. Even though Do You Dream a Tera two is a work of science fiction that takes us well beyond our own galaxy, it still feels close to home. Just like the characters in the book, we've probably all asked ourselves at some point what we'd do if we knew this was our last day on Earth. Maybe we've even imagined starting over or creating our own society from scratch. But this novel gives us a better appreciation for life as we know it, no matter how imperfect it is.
• 31:07
  Crew Collective is brought to you by Rocket Genius. Our executive producers are Matt Maderos and Travis Tots. This episode was written, edited, and produced by me. I'm Stuart Barefoot. More episodes are available at crewcollectivepodcast.com or anywhere else you might get podcasts.
• 31:29
  Next time on Crew Collective.
• 31:35
  Jim: There the real human stories tend to come from those places because we see those kinds of people every day. Some of us are those kinds of people or have done those jobs, and you're just transplanting them to a slightly different situation.