Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Dr. Maree Bilandzic

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Dr. Maree Bilandzic · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as a journalist of more than 30 years, I know how important it is to have a really good news service and to tell the stories that we so desperately need in order to understand our world.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Flash is Australia's biggest news streaming service with more than 20 local and global news sources.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can stream it live and on demand on your favourite device.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's news in the most convenient way to stay informed and connected across a range of sources, opinions, and perspectives.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to be joining forces with Flash News.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: You control your newsfeed and watch the news you want when you want it.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, with no lock-in contract, staying connected and informed has never been so affordable and easy.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Flash is all you need for news, so head to flashnews.com.au and become a subscriber today.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Marie Belanc is a senior research officer at the Hudson Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Her team at the Hudson performs cutting-edge science informed by patients and clinicians to improve the outcome and diagnosis for women with ovarian cancer.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, with an all-female team, Dr.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Belanc hopes to nurture and encourage future generations of female scientists and also lead by example, showing how you really can balance family life with a career in science and medicine.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, Dr.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Valanci, welcome to the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: We are so thrilled to have you on board.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, lovely to meet you.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely to meet you too.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I know quite a bit about the incredible work you do, but I'm looking forward to you telling our listeners your story.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can start for me about when your love of science began.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I was one of those students, I learned quite rapidly, and then I turned to structure.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I've gathered all the information and then I would be very chatty in class.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and science was a real way of me channeling that energy.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you can sort of write a technique, you can do an experiment, and you can see in real time what's happening.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it was something that could engage me the whole way through.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So from maybe year 11, year 12, I thought, that's it.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely want to do science.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that I'm good at, and it's something that can keep my attention.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's interesting because for you it was about making sure that you had a focus and you clearly had a highly, you know, very active mind.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And to do science year 11, 12, requires a lot of focus anyway.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel there was a lot of support at the time?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because you probably were talking, I'm assuming, several years back, where it now STEM and the whole philosophy is much more about encouraging women into science.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: For you, was that something you felt supported in?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so all of our science teachers at the high school that I attended were females, so they were quite inspirational in themselves.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: They had science degrees before they then took on teaching degrees.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you got a clear passion from the people that were teaching you.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, I I guess yeah, you saw you saw their love of science, and that sort of impacted on you.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're in you had some pretty real mentors, you could see that it was doable and it was very attainable.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so from there, what took you into this particular space, which is a really tough, complex, but such an important area of ovarian cancer research.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: How did you could you give me a little in insight into your trajectory?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so after I finished my undergraduate year, um I did an honours year and I started thinking about applying for a postdoctoral position.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I wanted to work in women's health.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: That was, you know, without a question.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I went to look for research projects and funding that were available, there was a large proportion of, I guess, projects available for diseases such as breast cancer.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whereas ovarian cancer, there wasn't really that much available in that space.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I sort of got to looking at um the survival rates when you compare them between breast cancer and ovarian cancer.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and breast cancer, we have done incredibly well.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, women have uh a projected 91% chance of surviving that particular disease.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then when I looked at ovarian cancer, I thought, well, the survival rates are about 40%.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: They've been 40% for over, you know, the last two, three decades.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: We need research going into that area.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, although there weren't that many job opportunities within the ovarian cancer space, I thought this is something that is a real need.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to try to work in that space where it's needed, like this.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so it really is one of the biggest challenges, as we know, is that the silence of it.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's very hard to identify it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I know many women who've grown up with ovarian cysts that are benign and they're okay, but but it's sort of a very somewhat murky area.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: People are not, it's not definitive.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like they've devised a test, which for breast cancer, where you actually it still has its challenges, but at least it's well, we can go on a certain journey and you can test, test, test, test, and if you have to get a biopsy.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: But with ovarian cancer, it's very challenging to detect it.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: So take me to where that's brought you because that's really what you're about, is making sure that that's something that comes into fruition.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I I guess there's probably um a lot of misconceptions around the ovarian cancer space.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of women believe that because they've had a papsmia, that a papsmia can detect ovarian cancer.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, a survey that was done last year found that 50% of Australian women believe that a papsmia would detect ovarian cancer.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that's half of the women in this country.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: When in fact it doesn't.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have an early detection test for ovarian cancer.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And whiz women are told to look for symptoms such as bloating, tiredness, generally feeling unwell.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think each and every one of your listeners that is a female will probably attest to the fact that you get these symptoms when you get your period.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you are progressing to early stage menopause, you don't know what to expect.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: These symptoms could also be attributed to um going through menopause.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So also you know, I'm not speaking for all women, but most women just simply get on with it.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're used to, you know, the bloats, we're used to feeling tired, we're used to feeling crampy and achy.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you you quite often might dismiss these symptoms, which are really early symptoms of the disease for just being things that become parcel of being a female.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Also, a lot of women believe that um you can they were protected from ovarian cancer because it has a cervical cancer vaccine, which in fact is for a different disease in itself.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess there is a lot of misconceptions and ambiguity around the ovarian cancer message.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: But that probably has to do with you know the awareness.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we don't education.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Education and awareness, and we're doing like since I first started working 13, 14 years ago to now, there are some amazing awareness campaigns out there, and women are really jumping on um, you know, spreading the message of ovarian cases that before then it wasn't really talked about, was it?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't quite know why.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, obviously the white shirt campaign, the witchery campaign, the you know, the ambassadors that have come on board have have really elevated it into the public space, which is which is amazing.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then the morning teas that people conduct every year, it's become very it's sort of becoming almost like the pink ribbon strategy that really took off for breast cancer awareness and the McGrath Foundation, etc.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are we getting closer to improving that education?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because really, as you're saying, the fund, it sort of goes education, then you and you you need the funding in order to make sure that this test is something that can be developed and research can continue.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: So they're sort of hand in hand, is that right, in terms of I would say so.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think collectively, if we understand a little bit more about the disease, that people would be more inclined to recognise the need for an early detection test.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, because there are those misconceptions where people, 50% of us, believe that a percent is going to detect it, maybe we don't as a society recognize there's a big need for this test and how much this early detection test can actually improve things for women with ovarian cancer.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I as a researcher am guilty of rattling off statistics, and I think a lot of people get overwhelmed by numbers and don't recognise that these numbers are actual women.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, 90% of women that are caught in the early stages of the disease ovarian cancer will survive.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to catch it early to improve the survival rate.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's very important statistic.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: That that's really quite quite important.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, so if so, would you recommend, for example, everyone gets their breast screen, everyone gets their papsmia, etc., etc.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you so your your hope is that the research will lead to everyone just gets their ovarian cancer screening test or blood test or what?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: So can you tell me a little bit about how that logistically would work?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Should once it becomes part of the medical um strategy, I suppose, for every woman?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's really contingent on the type of test that we'll be doing.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the group that I work with at the Hudson Institute of Medical Research that's led by Dr.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Andrew Stevens is looking at um combining it with the papsmia, so it would be a cervical swab or a swab that you take.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that test would need to be done um every couple of years.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: The women that work in our group would like to have it as a blood test, not a swab.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, I I hear you, and I must say that.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, beggars can't be choosers, but we're we're, you know, trying to, if it could be a blood test, a blood test, I think it would encourage more sort of compliance with the community.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if it has to be an asthmia, then it would have to be something like that.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that's an important point.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think though that you raise something because by having females on the team, on the research team, you can actually make that point as part of the strategy and the research, which would otherwise just, you know, men can't possibly comprehend how I suppose not fun the old, you know, the pap smear is.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so for them, it's just a well, what's going to get the best results?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth is we want that too.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you've highlighted that it needs to be factored in that women would prefer, and you're right, you'll get more compliance for sure.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: If people go, oh, well, I'll just get it part of as part of my blood test, or I can get a separate blood test.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And even then they're going to be a little reticent, but certainly less reticent than if they have to have a pack.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's being um heard, or do you think it's do you think that that will have said anything?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Loud and clear, good.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, loud and clear.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, yeah.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, how far away are we from that test being offered?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the way that it works, we don't have an early detection test um for ovarian cancer.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Our group has been focused for um, I'd say like over a decade on finding a marker that's going to be able to tell us that a woman has ovarian cancer in its earliest stages.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Essentially, we don't have any reagents towards those markers.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So all of the um tools that you use to build a detection test actually need to be built themselves.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to, it's not like you can go to a supermarket shelf and say, Okay, here are the ingredients on my recipe, at least I can pick it off the shelf and make this test.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: We have to make the ingredients.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we want to be sure 100% that these tests that we've developed will pick up ovarian cancer in its earliest stages in all of the women that we've trained.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so currently we have done a pre-clinical trial on a group of women who have a predisposition to ovarian cancer.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So these might be women that carry the breathant gene mutation and they undergo what's called prophylactic surgery.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: So they know that they there's the potential that they'll get ovarian cancer, so they choose to remove their ovaries.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as a part of that, you can do quite in-depth physiological assessments of um their ovaries to see whether they have pre-metastatic lesions or these precursor lesions or a really, really early stage ovarian cancer.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we compare that with the actual tests that were developed to be sure that that test can actually pick it up in these women.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens normally is I um will give talks or interact with females that are like, yeah, yeah, we're happy to donate to research, we're really happy to be involved if this is going to be something that's gonna better for all women, um, until you tell them, Oh, we actually need your whole ovary to do these tests um to to work it out.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So um that political trial has really done some amazing things.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my institute will probably get me into trouble for talking too much about it, but I think it's something that you should um really follow on the Hudson Institute or also the Ovarian Case Research Foundation has been fundamental to supporting this long term um through you know the Witchery Wright Shirt campaign.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Witcheries really put all of their um funds into early detection work.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um they'll also be the ones doing the announcement.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: So just so I understand, you're saying that that test is at the cusp of being implemented on the basis of what you've just outlined, which is pretty exciting and great uh progress.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the funding, you've had enough funding to get it to that point.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: To get it, yeah, to the point.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: And who would be eligible for that test?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or will it be used, as you mentioned, the women who have a bracogene?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is that no?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we're hoping to implement it in the greater population of women.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: So all women would be um able to use that test.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: We the clinical workup or the pre-clinical workup is done on that cohort of women that you can sort of you know get their ovaries as well and have a definite answer.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So by looking at the ovaries, you can tell whether there's tumour or no tumour.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then you pair that with the test.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not the way that it would be in the normal situation.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: In a normal situation, it would just be um the test.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when when do you anticipate this test will be available?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: In a year, we're talking two years, are we talking about I would say within the next two years, yeah.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's very exciting progress.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Very exciting, yeah.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And will people, will doctors order that test if they're if people are symptomatic, or will everyone, you know, like we all get a breast screen, or we all get a PAPS meeting.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Is that how it will work?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or you would you would hope that it would be something that you could implement in it as a part of routine screening, just for peace of mind um for women.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um you would hope so, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't actually know about the technicalities of implementing or commercializing and IDR.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: But the science is there, is what you're saying.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's great progress.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a great progress, but it's been a really long journey, like a long, you know, labour.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, some of the targets that we initially identified just didn't turn out to be accurate or just didn't turn out to work.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you make it sound like this smooth process, but it's it's been a long time coming.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's lots of blueties underneath.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I hear you.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a very arduous and very challenging process, and probably, you know, I suppose there's just a culmination of a lot of hard work.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think having women on the team has been part of the drive and clearly, as we referred to before, it clearly made sure that certain things were considered.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: But do you think that's really helped drive it into the onto the priority list?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say so.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I also am really um blessed to be surrounded by people that that want to make a difference.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone that's working here, it doesn't have um a motivation other than to see something that we see is not available, become available.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Does it make sense?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, totally.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: What you're saying is it's a combined effort between the men and women on the team and the entire institute, which is, and also making sure the funding there, which clearly the funding is now at a point that it's allowed this to get up and hopefully will um become available in the next two years.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: That is a phenomenal uh and very exciting development.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, Marie, you know, you mentioned that, you know, you developed a love of science and there were some people that inspired you on that journey.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me that little anecdote about you.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Was it at university?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I was an um undergraduate trying to decide on whether I wanted to continue with research and do my honours and um no, actually I was in my honours, sorry, I laugh, I was in my honours trying to decide whether I wanted to continue with a PhD, and I remember a very heavily pregnant um clinician, amazing clinician that was studying her PhD also, had small children.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think maybe at the time there was two or three children, and she was pregnant with her fourth child, um, came in and gave her end of PhD seminar, and that was um Katie Allen, the Minister for Parliament.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, if this woman can be a clinician, do a PhD, raise four children, like what am I doing with my life?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I decided to stay on and um do a PhD.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I love that because it does show that as women we can really achieve so much, still have our children, and certainly in science and medicine, it it can sometimes deter people from that pathway.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: But as you've exemplified, and so has Katie, uh, wow, imagine our world without people like you guys, you women, um, you're both great contributors to the community.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, do you think women as a rule, like, do we have enough understanding about our sexual health, about our well-being?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know I have friends who've only just found out they've got endometriosis at 50.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: We tend to put ourselves last on the list, don't we?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like we just like, even though we do, you know, and I think also COVID is a lot of people have put off a lot of tests, which we which has been quite prevalent.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: People have just gone, oh I'll get round to it, sort of thing.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel that we we're certainly better educated on one level, but I think we get busy, we get overwhelmed, and we just don't put ourselves first.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Is that your impression?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, women, for sure.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're just so used to you're just so used to some of these things happening, you know, that you you do you you put yourself last when it comes to family, you put yourself last when you have children.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: You put yourself last.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of the times the things that that are symptoms that say over ovarian cancer, you just dismiss as being symptoms of something else because your whole life you've been suffering from bloating, or your whole life you've suffered from you know these things that you might see as being nondescript that might be an indicator of something far worse.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And tell me, so so before this test is available in the next few years, what should what should women do to check this?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is it a something they should just, is it something they can go to their GP and they can just feel their tummy and feel if it's okay, or is there something they need to do?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like what would you recommend?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there isn't anything that's available um currently.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you can obviously get a transvaginal ultrasound paired with a marker called CA125 and a blood test, but CA125 also comes up in other diseases such as endometriosis and that.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if you have uh vaginal ultrasound, the tumour would have to be of the size that you'd be able to see it by imaging.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's part of peace of mind, isn't it?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um but other than that, you know, majority of the women that I speak to that have ovarian cancer have just been persistent with, you know, saying something just doesn't feel right.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and until then, you just you you need to go with what you feel in your body, I guess.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And be persistent with your doctor to say there's something not right, we need to do a scan, or we need to, in other words, it's also taking our own health into our own hands, is what you're saying at this point.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I yeah, but I feel like that what happens majority of the time, doesn't it?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have that really good relationship with your general practitioner, um, that you're able and comfortable enough to talk about things that you might just necessarily see, you know, naturally occurring things.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, have that open communication.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people are really lacking that connection with their GP, and COVID has probably added to that because no one wants to sit in their GP office now and potentially, you know, get COVID.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a good point.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I suppose what you're saying is how important it is to listen to our own symptoms and to actually act on.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: It and to persist if we think it's something that needs to be looked at more closely.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I come from a family of doctors, my daughter's doing medicine.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's a big focus on if you have something, just deal with it, get on with it, make sure you actually attend to it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something that I've sort of almost makes you hyper-vigilant, if I'm totally honest.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone is a hyper-vigilance about everything.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's that?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is that you know, but that also could be not healthy because it connects.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, Google, Google really is Google, oh my god.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Google is yeah, no, no, no, Google's not good.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me, do you have um do you have an anecdote of a woman or women that you've met that have inspired you, that you've seen come through the journey?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and can you tell us a little bit about that?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it can be one that may have ended not in the way that they'd hoped, or it could be one that you've seen them fight through and come to the other side.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something that comes to light for you?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I have been extremely lucky to um form quite close relationships with their called out consumers or um women with ovarian cancer.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And over the years, um, I reckon for me it's probably been the hardest part of being a researcher.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, always try to be a very positive person because I know the work that I'm doing is going to change things for women.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um but ovarian cancer has a very, very um poor survival rate.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And having worked in their time frame of, you know, the last 13 years, meeting women who have less than five years to live has meant that I've lost people that I call my friends.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I guess for me, when you first meet a patient, because there is no early detection test, they'll come in to have surgery to check whether they have the disease, and at that time you need to approach them and say, Well, if we find something, are we able to take your tissue for research purposes?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I said this before, a hundred percent of the time there's women that are sitting there thinking, I don't know if I've got cancer, if I don't have cancer.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well a hundred percent of the time say, Yes, take my tissue.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the work that we do might not benefit them, um, but it will benefit future generations of women and to have that insight and to have that, I guess what's the word that I'm looking for?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: That that that trust selflessness.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, selflessness, yeah.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I put other women in front of, you know, what I'm going on or what's going through what I'm going through at the moment when I'm thinking of future generations.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, like I was saying, when I get sick, it's all about me, you know.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a flu, I'm terrible, I'm gonna lie down on the couch or whatever, but these women are going in there thinking, well, this might not help me, but this will help future generations of women is incredible, and that happens a hundred percent of the time with all the women that we've met over the years.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um As I said, it's really hard to have these women that advocate for you, knowing that what I'm doing might not help them.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Does it make sense?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does make terrible sense.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're they're they're encouraging, you know.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've got one amazing um advocate, Leanne Flynn.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You've probably seen her, she's featured in the Witchery Whiteshirt campaigns over the years.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: We actually met at um a Witchery White Shirt campaign uh breakfast maybe about five years ago now.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we formed a friendship and she's going through her own journey.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and will always be so positive about the work that I'm doing, knowing that you know, early detectives aren't gonna help her, or some of the treatments that I'm working on at the moment aren't gonna be able to help her because it would take time to get implemented, but she's always like you know, really positive about it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's um they're they're a real uh motivation and inspiration for the work that you well I can see, and also you know, science often people think of people in a laboratory, you know, as a scientist, as a researcher.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what you've pointed out very appropriately is that it is very human and it is very uh connected, and and the relationships that you form and also the trust that people have to have in you to say, I know the greater picture and I know what is up ahead and what you're trying to do, and I'm prepared in a courageous and brave way to contribute to that journey.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: You develop these relationships that require enormous emotional giving on both sides.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's not arm's length, really, is it?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: That that side of it.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: But most scientists are very socially awkward.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So well, that is not you.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: That is not my experience of you at all.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: You don't seem so socially, you seem very very socially capable, but um, but also very articulate in the way that you've outlined and made, I suppose, the science of what you're trying to do accessible and hopefully more comprehensible for our listeners.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, are you hoping that you'll continue in this space?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're thinking?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I'm hoping to become unemployed.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping that honestly, or move to another disease or something like that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like it would be amazing if there was no need for ovarian cancer research because we had changed the landscape entirely.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, Australian researchers were responsible for developing the service cancer vaccine.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And now we hardly hear about service cancer.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of hoping that we can move into it, I can move into that space.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I hope so too, and I hope that whatever space you move into, that I'm sure you'll make a major contribution if you had as you have in this space, and I hear from your colleagues and from other people that work with you, that you know you're you're very diligent and you're very committed.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we need incredible women like yourself.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you're a mother as well, so I know you juggle family and work life, and you seem to do that pretty well.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: How do you find that?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Are you finding that manageable?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say that the it's it's a really um it's there's a lot of guilt.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: As a mother, I think there's just a lot of guilt um that comes with it.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um because yeah, I I try to I time block my time, so I try to have a clear distinction between work and between time.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's just quite hard to um, you know, work during the day.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: I've got the time that my children are awake, they can bath on a sleep and do that whole rigmarole.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, enjoy it.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then switch back on to work.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you just have to set up a good routine and and that's the way it works.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I guess as your children grow a little bit older and less sort of dependent on you.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I think that's true.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And as somebody who has older children, um, if nothing else, I I feel greatly supported by my children.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: They understand why I work and my contribution.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you'll find that as your children get older, the same thing happens.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because actually, being a working mother is sort of the best of both worlds, and the guilt really is something that unfortunately has been embedded in our culture.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: But really, you know, often I don't think the men feel guilty, most of them, and they shouldn't.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And why should we?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're doing something so valuable.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that's part of that self-care approach of making sure that we tend to our health needs, get our tests, and also be kind and not to ourselves, you know.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's that's the challenge for working women, but you certainly seem to be navigating it very well.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think you touched on it as well, like um saying about work ethic.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my parents have always worked, mum, you know, I don't recall her having a day off work.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they sort of instilled that really good work ethic in me and my sister, and that's why we work the way that we do work.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping that my children can see, you know what, I'm not doing this job because it's just a job that gives me money.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing this job because I actually love what I do and I love going into work, and I hope to share that with them, you know, so that in the future they find something that, you know, isn't a job per se, it's something that they love doing, and you know, you get paid as a bonus, sort of thing.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: I feel very similarly, and I think we share that.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it certainly gives you a great sense of purpose too, and for your children to see that, and that that's something that is not something you should feel guilty about, but something you should be proud of, because I think it's it's very important work.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love chatting to you.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you're doing is really very important and special, and I look forward to seeing this test out in the community as soon as possible so that we can prevent more senseless loss of life and save more people.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was so lovely to meet you.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So lovely to meet you too, and I'm sure I'll see you hopefully at the next Witcher White Shirt morning tea.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind and curious.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Love death.