Latest / Conversations with Dad / Lessons on fatherhood from dad
Transcript
- mbrownstein3485: How's how's your last couple of weeks been? Stanley Brownstein: good. kind I guess kind of busy, but nothing exceptional. yeah, same old. I mean we when the storm hit we no longer was having Ellen and Michael over. We weren't gonna you know, the that whole thing. So that mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: now I was thinking like I our talks would probably be better, but maybe not you don't think so if you like you had in the beginning gave me a heads up for topics. mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: Cause I definitely try to prepare if you you know, I think about what you know, I don't just wing it. if I want to be able to really communicate in an orderly informed way. mbrownstein3485: No, I I I that I think that makes a lot of that makes a lot of sense. And then yeah. And then, you know, it it do it definitely seems like we then arrive on things from the conversation, but having a a firm starting place I think is a is a really makes a lot of sense. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, we arrive at things and it all s yeah. And and it also in a way perhaps even provides a thread through conversations. But but that mbrownstein3485: Right, right. Stanley Brownstein: we'll see. mbrownstein3485: No, I I appreciate that. so to to that effect, our our conversation last time and and ru and and I think the time before, even though the time before was quite a long time before, we were moving into the like kind of the topic of parenting. or Stanley Brownstein: Okay. mbrownstein3485: at least that's that's the thread that I've been pulling, that I've been paying attention to. Stanley Brownstein: Right, I actually I I I listened to that conversation last that we had last time and I felt that that's really what was the thread that you were pulling and I didn't feel that I was really responding to that as much as you know, the conversation called for. So it's in a way that's you know, th so I just that's just something I picked up on. mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Well, it's I mean, and that I mean that comes back to the point that you were saying, like, if that's the intentional thing that we come we s we start with. And I I think I found myself again, this is two or three times ago when we were talking about your your journey around the work for yourself, you know, and and how that propelled you. And help to make sense of the sacrifices and challenges that led you to, you know, move a bunch of matter to make to make your chiropractic career start and like all the effort to to move things around to make acupuncture be part of your practice. And yeah, I mean, that whole time it was super interesting to hear how it manifested in that way. And then I think something that I, you know, was interested in. That you also started to speak to was just your how that impacted your relationships with people. And so that's been like another little thread, I think, that's been coming up, like learning about how you know how this has impacted, you know, this being who how you engage with the world has impacted your relationship with people, with friends, with family. I think that was something that you you started to talk more deeply about. and then At the same time, like obviously some them some things come up about how you know the work and your intention, how that comes up as a as a parent. And then also how it comes up as a a grandparent and a parent to me who's parenting. So so the these two these two ideas or rather these two parts of your experience, like relationships with people and your relationship with With parenting, I'm I'm still very interested in it. And I think there's still some more things to talk about around those two areas. And I and I'll I'm sure we'll come back to it in different ways as we continue our conversations, but those are the two threads that have kind of I've I've been in interested in that have come up for me in our conversations. What what what what do you have to say about that? Stanley Brownstein: well I would be happy to allow you to milk any more of that that's in me that you would serve. mbrownstein3485: Good. Okay. So I all right. So let's talk about yeah, let's talk about parenting and and you know the you've you've you've been a parent in many different phases. and I guess I'm wondering as a parent when Yeah, I guess what what are some conversations that you and mom had as you like made sense of who you were as parents and or were there other places where you did some learning and reflecting outside of conversations with mom as you approached the role of being a parent? Stanley Brownstein: I think one thing that I feel your your mom and I both had was a I'll call I'll say a superficial comfort with being parents. You know, I don't think we ever felt like either of us, you know, felt uncomfortable dealing with a baby, you know, you know, what to do. I mean, we we you know, I'm not saying that we we knew everything about being parents, but we've but we at least felt we did. So we were comfortable with, you know, that stage of things, you know, which I thought I think that's not a bad place to start because as opposed to just feeling squeamish or confused or uncomfortable, that type of thing. but we did, you know, in those days, that was pre-Google. So, you know, we w we'd go to the bookstore and look at all the different books, you know, and skim through it. There was there were shows on TV, there was this guy Brazilton, you know. You know, we you know, we kind of read the Dr. Spock stuff, you know, and mbrownstein3485: Right, right. Stanley Brownstein: and what we discussed in doing those things, a lot of times you do those things and you do internalize things whether you realize it or not. But by the same token, what we did discuss is that no one really, you know, you you just re read a lot of different things and and you know, there's differing opinions. And you just kind of synthesize what resonates with you. So in a way we we did prepare, you know, in a s to a certain degree, or it or it actually, but you know, as you know, you cherry pick things, you know, and you know, if you agree with it, you know, then you have confirmation, you know, yeah, you know, maybe the you know, so I'm sure there was a lot of that going on. so so that's the extent that we discussed it. I don't think we had this. big grand plan in terms of how we wanted to mold our children, as much as perhaps, you know, just h having open conversations when things came up. mbrownstein3485: Gotcha. Were there people outside of out of mom, like people who and I I think this is on my mind now, especially as you know, we both noted there there has been a this has been one of the threads that have come up. But you know, this this weekend we spent some time with one of Poppy's friends' parents, you know, and like I think that Hillary and I gravitate towards people who You know, our kids like the kids, but then we also like the adults. you know, Stanley Brownstein: Right, sure. mbrownstein3485: I mean there was and there was a model that you all set, you know, in in terms of making investing in relationships with like the ambrosios for for instance. And I think these particular parents who, you know, like the the husband's this Israeli guy, and like the wife is from Westchester. So there's like certain things I think that we like gravito towards, but I think ultimately it's like they're just like interesting reflective. people who who Stanley Brownstein: Right. But that yeah. mbrownstein3485: who pe who are people who we end up, you know, talking about parenting with. Stanley Brownstein: Because I could say the exact opposite in terms of being drawn to Frank and Tony. Like d we have nothing externally mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: to s to to hook us up. But mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: as you know, especially when you kids were young, mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: we really I I feel perhaps our Venn diagram is separating a little bit, but we are much more overlapped when for many, many, many years when in mbrownstein3485: So I yeah, I guess is that did you have people outside of mom who you would find yourself engaging in conversations with about parenting and and if so, like I don't know, some some things that came up that were either inspiring or illuminating? Stanley Brownstein: Well, one thing that was interesting when I saw I remember when we might share things with certain family members and they were judgmental. And but it was kind of as judgment usually is it's kind of arbitrary, you know, everybody, you know. So we just said, All right, so we won't talk about that with them anymore. You know, it's like what's the point? mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: so but family in general, no, I never really Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I didn't really like I didn't talk to my parents much about so if you're asking me about like lessons for parenting, you know, that type of thing. Never really relied upon my family for off I guess off the top of my head I can't even think of friends, you know. We pretty much I guess y you know, you were pretty young when we You know, we started going to lectures, you know, and I think while it what parenting wasn't there was some sometimes certain things were addressed parenting wise, but most of all it was just you know having having a purpose ourselves in terms of you know trying to be mindful, conscious, what however you want to work it, and and The family ha you know, parenting being a perfect reflection of where your head's at, you know, in terms of you know, seeing how you react to things, seeing you know seeing what's going on. Like I I remember w one thing that happened later on, for instance, when like it might have been when you were getting bombitsford. So in many ways, you know, the you know, because or or starting to study for the bar mitzvah and I was questioning the value of it. mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: And s he said, s Steve said, or all his friends getting Bar Mitzford? He said, yeah. I said, yeah, so, so we should get Bar Mitzford. You know, it's kind of like sometimes, you know, you know, things can be overly serious and intellectualized, and sometimes it's just a question of, you know, mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: this is life. mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: But I think the biggest the biggest impact really on my personality and also on my parenting was just you know just trying to be you know more honestly reflexive, reflective of where whereas that, you know, what was behind my emoting about certain things, you know, what you know what my my my purpose was, it just kind of opened me up to being more cognizant of what I was doing. mbrownstein3485: Can you give some examples of that? Stanley Brownstein: You know, it's hard to know, you know, what you know, I there are certain things that I can think of that stick in my mind, but I can't say wha what what to attribute to it to. You know, you can't you know, it's w when do you realize that you've learned a lesson or or when do you know like I remember one time how I I don't think we were, you know, heavy handed with forcing you to do things like study and stuff like that. I think it was just an atmosphere of of being responsible and doing what you have to do. I mean, is that mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: So I I remember though that in in the back of my mind I was I really was in the back of my mind, in my heart of hearts, it's like I was hoping your kids would kind of be, you know, upper middle class, white collar, that kind of stuff. And I'm thinking and then at a certain point it just hit me, it's like, what the hell am I doing? It's like all the people I know who are like that are not necessarily happy. And and what is it that I want most for my kids, you know, to be happy and self-sufficient? mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: You know, so little things like that. Or I remember, you know, you know how Michael was, you know, he wanted to be a cop, he wanted, you he didn't want you know he didn't want to go to college and stuff like that. And I I remember once telling him that if you were happy being a garbage man and you were really happy doing it. Yeah, my support. And I don't know if I would have, I don't know if that was a you know, you could you could argue whether that's correct or not, but I d in terms of how I look at it, I don't know how I came to that appreciation. You know, w what was responsible for it. Is it something that if I didn't have any of that, those those studies, would I have still come to that real? I really couldn't tell you. mbrownstein3485: Yeah, that's that's that's interesting. It and like I don't I don't know what if we wanted to categorize that type of response as like a mindful parenting move. yeah, it it it it's so there's so much like lightness and I don't know, groundedness. There's su there's something that kind of there's there's an experience there that comes up when you're able to connect to that. and it actually it's funny, it's like that's come up a couple of times at in school. Like right now we're well one, literally what you just said about garbage, like if you were, if you loved it, if you also did it well and were committed to it, like I would fully support it. there's a quote. That's attributed to MLK about that, that actually I brought up at one of our school leadership team meetings. just because sometimes, as like parents, and this is a this is a meeting where parents are involved, you know, sometimes we wanna only talk about certain things that we think are the most important, the biggest, the sometimes the most interesting, sometimes the you know, the the most high highbrow, elevated. And also there are certain things that like maybe we don't feel like talking about, but are the most significant and/or we're the most well positioned to to talk about. and if we talk about it and talk about it well and we like take that role seriously, there could be a lot of really important positive effects. so that's like a just a little connection. But the the thing that I feel like is more deeply connected to what you're talking about is We we've been talking about the role of language in how we're speaking with kids and our intentions around it and how sometimes we will say something to a kid with the goal of almost like min like tricking or manipulating them to to think of something and to respond in a particular way. and the and and the power and the importance of just being just like really direct and genuine with kids and also to have fit Also have some faith that they that they can do it. And I think sometimes w when I find myself responding to something like my kid saying, Well, I want to be a garbage man, it elicits fear in me and then I try to overcorrect versus being like, right, well, like what is this about? let me slow down here. Like right now is I shouldn't be trying to like think fast to try and trick them. into questioning this, like maybe maybe this is what's important to them right now. And what's most important to me? Almost like the slowing down, coming back to purpose again. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I found that to be I mean, you know, at times with parenting I found that that recognizing your response not so much being about the what the child's behavior was as much as it is what it reflects upon you. mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: and or if you you know again just the whole you know there's this automatic kind of momentum once you have kids that you you know you have this heavy duty responsibility to to mold them correctly. And unf and unfortunately that's usually also when you're starting your career and you have well, you know, you know, you're building, you know, what you know, a nest egg for yourself. You have all this stuff going on, but you also feel this res you know, this responsibility to do what's right, as if you know what's right. and all of that stuff is is is is not really about knowing what's good for the child. I mean there are obvious stuff. You know, if they're gonna walk into the road, you know, you're gonna, you know, put their if they're gonna put their hand on fire if they're gonna suffer because of habits that they have. But but there is another thing too is like when they start getting in trouble or something or you know and and and you think about not only how that reflects upon you, But also like the objectivity of what they did. You know, like I remember Michael used to get in trouble a lot in school. And I and at a certain point I realized like we used to do this stuff all the time, and there was nothing wrong with it. And all of a sudden he's bad because he does this. He might be stupid because he was told not to do it. And this is what would happen, you know, in that respect. mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: but maybe that's not even stupid. Maybe that's just like he recognized that why should he listen just because I'm gonna get, you know, why should I not do this? I want to do it and I'm I'm gonna get in trouble. well, you know. So there's you know a a big part I think of my maturation as a parent w is just kind of you know understanding that you know you only have You know, relationships are are kind of very Delicate in a way in terms of real relationships, you know, like really understanding, you know, not getting into a pattern, not getting into a habit, not doing something because you want them and/or the world to be a certain way, but to really interact. and and as you kind of get older, you kind of see that that that's that's the value of, you know, communication, that's the value of your relationship to people that you care about. And with that, you end up being you you end up not pushing and it even if you know this person is is hurting themselves, you're not invested in them changing, like requiring them to change, manipulating them to change. It you kind of are more open to openings that maybe they'll be able to listen to something relating to that at this point. Or maybe they're not maybe they won't be, and you just kind of decide that, you know, you'll just be nice to them, you know, pleasant to them. You'll just riff off with whatever they want to talk about. mbrownstein3485: Right. And and and and recognizing that we have our own versions of things in in maybe the exact lesson that you're trying to impart on your kid that you took, you know, thirty-five years to figure out. So why why expect the person in front of me to have it click right away? It didn't click for me, right? So there's there's also a little bit of self reflection too that I think happens when you aren't holding as tightly to something. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I mean it's like those two. I I think those two in I mean that those two can't really occupy the same space. You know, if you're if you're imposing something on another person, you're not being self-reflective. And but but I think when you're self-reflective, and not not in a self involved way, but it's kind of like if you're open, you're open. You're open to yourself, and you're open to the person you're communicating with. I mean, it's just openness. You know what you're feeling, but you're not like getting lost in what you're feeling. You know, you maybe you're not getting lost in what you're thinking. You're not getting lost in your response, you're just kind of You know, I see this, you know, and you might let you know, drop to you know, like when I say drop, you know, just relax to it and continue to focus on the interaction, the communication. mbrownstein3485: what are some things that I have to look forward to as a parent? Stanley Brownstein: look forward to meaning in a good way or what traps? mbrownstein3485: In a good way. In a good way. Stanley Brownstein: Well, I I'm I mean, I think the most joy I'm getting out of parenting now is just having a relationship with my children, you know, with with good adults. I mean, I think that's a treat that I I mean that's nothing yeah. You know, I think what's really funny too is I don't feel that we've ever really been I don't I don't think we kinda I mean we I I hope, I feel that for the most part we encourage you to you know to spread your wings. And what and yet, you know, we're able, you know, you except for Michael, which I understand, in terms of his opportunity and whatever, you know, you guys are all pretty much available and around. And what's funny though is it the parents that we've known who have been the most kind of tenacious and requiring and stuff like that, you know, and and you know, and and kind of wanting their kids to be there are the ones who pretty much flown the coupe and I almost feel just to get away. mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: so I think, yeah, having your kids, appreciating your kids as as human beings is something to look forward to. But something But you're also gonna have that you're gonna see them do a lot of things that are could be stupid, could be dangerous, could make you feel that they don't value you, that you know, they don't love you, that they resent you. I mean, I mean, all all of that's kind of their you know, I mean you think about it, you're an adult and and I'm your parent. And you know you know that. I mean, you know, you you you know, I I butted in when you were going upstate. It's like mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: and I look at and so it's like that relationship never changes, which is kind of a strange it's it's a strange relationship when you think about it, because it's fraught with all this history and all this we you know, what's the word? You know, you think about a a young kid, how you you know, like once they start start getting two and three, they start rebelling. You know, they just won't listen to anything you're saying. They want they want autonomy, but they want attachment, all this kind of stuff. And that really never leaves in a way. But mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: it's but it's but it's, you know, there's a lot of personality and a lot of experience and a lot of maturation. And I also think there's You know, I think I didn't really think about it with my father that much, but I think as you see your parents age, you know, and then you know, then y you know, there's a a bit of a there's there's a loss that's felt from both ends. You know, and that's again not look 'cause you don't really look at your your parents or your children as, you know, human you know, in the same objectively. mbrownstein3485: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: So that that all of that plays out, you know, over the experience, you know, you know, the neediness, the you know, rejection, the and then also them just you know allowing them to make mistakes, you know, allowing mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: them to get hurt with their mistakes, you know, all that stuff. So That's the stuff to look forward to. But if you're able to accept it and recognize that they ha they have to they have to learn their own lessons. I don't mean that, you know, like you let them, you know, walk blindfolded in the street. But the the more the more lessons they are able to learn. Like a big thing that I feel that I never fully embraced is that it's okay to fail. mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: I mean, and you know, that is such a healthy attitude. You know, as long as you keep your eye on the ball and you recognize and you s you know, recognize why you fail failed, and it wasn't necessarily because you're bad or stupid, you know, if you were unprepared, become more prepared, or it's just, you know, you know, it it rained on the day that you went there and you got all muddy, so you didn't make a good appearance, which you have no control over. I mean mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: All that kind of stuff, you know, and and how, you know, those real basic values that you can inst you know you've installed in your children, but you've also emulated. and and have confidence that you you you did everything you could. I mean, it's kind of like a real microcosm of it was, you know, when you know, you might have experienced to some degree, but you know, like when Hillary was pregnant. I know when Wendy was pregnant, you know, you're always a little bit nervous, you know, what, you know, how it's going to turn out. So like we made a decision to do everything we could, you know, supposed to do. And that gave us confidence that if something did happen, you know, at least we did what we could. mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: And that's the same story throughout your life. I mean, you of course you don't you learn lessons and you realize that, you know, you fucked up. But you can only w you if you're trying to be honest with with yourself and you're trying to do what's best, you know, that's all you can do. And and and hopefully, you know, that's why like the you know, I feel that, you know, we tried to do the best we could, but I also feel we're incredibly lucky that it worked out. Which I think it has. mbrownstein3485: Yeah. I'm par part and parcel why we're having these conversations right now. Stanley Brownstein: Good time. mbrownstein3485: yeah, you're both both because it's good I think I think like you said before, it's nice to also have like a planned conversation. And one of the impetuses for this though is like, you know, we would have conversations where I felt like I was learning something, but you know, by virtue of recording it, there's some There's some maybe opportunity for some deepening around certain things. And I definitely think there's there's more to learn explicitly from you about being a parent. and clearly there's been a lot of learning, just like implicitly. so something I would like to talk about next time, which I think will be another way to kind of touch on some of the things of parenting. mindfulness, relationships, stuff like that is your and and it's come up in in in recent conversations I I've had with different people, is just your your take and thoughts on you know what it means to be a man, what it means to be a man in in in our society right now and some of the confusions, the concepts that are helpful, not helpful around that, both as a role of as a parent, but also as As a man. so I'm I'm inviting us to talk about that next time. And obviously if something comes up that makes it seem like that's not the thing to talk about, well that's that's okay. Stanley Brownstein: All right, that sounds like a good topic. I mean I can necessarily reflect what it means to be a man in today's society. So you'll have to give some No input on that or or your questions will expose things that I'm not appreciating. All right, sounds good. mbrownstein3485: Sounds good. All right. Well, thanks for making time, Dan. Stanley Brownstein: Sure thing, love you. mbrownstein3485: Love you too.