Latest / No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women / No More Silence: How Life's Challenges Taught Me to Speak Up to Help Others

Transcript

No More Silence: How Life's Challenges Taught Me to Speak Up to Help Others · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

0:05
Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
0:07
Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
0:13
Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
0:20
Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
0:29
Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish.
0:34
Mary: Let's dive in.
0:35
Mary: Hey, violets, welcome to the show.
0:42
Mary: When I was trained as a therapist, we spent a great deal of time talking about self-disclosure.
0:47
Mary: How much do you let your clients know about you?
0:49
Mary: I knew plenty of colleagues who didn't have any personal photos in their office and felt as though there was no personal information that they should share with their clients.
0:59
Mary: The idea of limiting self-disclosure comes partly from needing to be aware of something called counter-transference.
1:06
Mary: This is when a therapist reacts to the client based on their own unresolved issues or emotional responses, rather than focusing solely on the client's needs.
1:15
Mary: There's definitely a line between empathy, understanding a client's experience, even if the therapist hasn't experienced the exact situation themselves, and identifying with it so much that the therapist makes a session about themselves.
1:29
Mary: However, strategic self-disclosure can be helpful in letting the client see the therapist as a person with their own life challenges, versus an unapproachable expert who always knows what's best for every client.
1:43
Mary: It's the self-disclosure outside the office that can often be more fraught.
1:48
Mary: If you go to the same coffee shop as a client, you really need to allow the client to decide whether you acknowledge each other.
1:55
Mary: But even in frequenting the same coffee shop, your client could discover many things about you.
2:00
Mary: They may see your friends, your partner, your kids, the books you read, what you look like on your days off.
2:08
Mary: Anymore, people might not think twice about this.
2:11
Mary: I certainly don't anymore.
2:12
Mary: But, related to this topic, I had to adjust to the level of self-disclosure I use on this podcast.
2:19
Mary: I don't think much about it anymore, to be honest, and I know that social media has moved the self-disclosure bar way to the side of sharing everything, especially for the typical user.
2:29
Mary: But even five years ago, when I worked in a college, I probably would not have started a podcast.
2:35
Mary: I know I would have felt too exposed.
2:38
Mary: Now that I'm focusing most of my time on coaching and speaking, I'm shedding more and more that instinctive tendency to strictly limit what I share.
2:47
Mary: But I won't lie.
2:49
Mary: Initially it was difficult to share without feeling a bit weird.
2:53
Mary: I mean, I spent 30 years being careful what clients knew about me personally In the office.
2:58
Mary: There are still pretty traditional guidelines and really they shouldn't change.
3:04
Mary: But more and more mental health professionals blend their public endeavors social media speaking, writing and podcasting with personal stories that support their work and their message.
3:13
Mary: My guest today, Zulma Williams, does this for sure.
3:18
Mary: She is a licensed social worker in Nevada and she has her own podcast, keeping it Real with Zulma the Swearing Therapist.
3:25
Mary: I listen to it.
3:26
Mary: She does swear a lot.
3:29
Mary: So I'm not going to promise that there are not going to be some F-bombs today, but we already talked.
3:36
Mary: We're going to try to sanitize it, but it's actually kind of exhilarating because y'all don't know this from this podcast.
3:43
Mary: But I can out-swear a trucker For real.
3:45
Mary: Ask my husband or my BFF.
3:48
Mary: Anyway, Zulma was born and raised in Buenos Aires, argentina, and immigrated to the US at the age of 31.
3:55
Mary: At age 42, she started working on her Bachelor of Social Work degree and graduated at age 46.
4:01
Mary: Two months later she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
4:04
Mary: Graduated at age 46.
4:04
Mary: Two months later she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
4:05
Mary: She had surgery, moved back to Argentina for three years and, in 2015, came back to the United States and she is now a fully licensed social worker and the founder of Dragonfly Therapy Services, where she specializes in trauma, anxiety and depression.
4:22
Mary: Her personal stories seem to strengthen and facilitate her work with her clients.
4:24
Mary: Welcome to no Shrinking, violet Zulma.
4:27
Zulma: Thank you so much.
4:28
Zulma: It's such a beautiful introduction.
4:30
Zulma: Thank you, Mary, for having me.
4:32
Mary: Well, I love, love, love your energy.
4:34
Mary: We had a little pre-interview chat.
4:37
Mary: It is kind of more it's morning where she is, so I told her she has morning energy and I have afternoon energy, but anyway, okay.
4:45
Mary: So, Zulma, I would love to dive into your story a bit more to start.
4:49
Mary: So, what first brought you to the United States, and why did you decide to pursue a degree in social work?
4:56
Zulma: Sure, so it was a teenage dream of moving to the United States was a teenage dream of living, moving to the United States, and then the socioeconomic situation in Argentina, kind of like, pushed me out.
5:11
Zulma: But there was a specific event that was very traumatic and so I was 31.
5:17
Zulma: I was living with my mom.
5:19
Zulma: I didn't have a job for like about two years at that time and I was toying with the idea of like, okay, I'm gonna move to America, blah, blah, blah.
5:27
Zulma: And then I had a cousin who, um, he was, so I was around 30 and so he was probably 31 at the time, and he had a stroke and died suddenly.
5:40
Zulma: So I was like, oh my god, like I thought I had my entire life in front of me and that reality check made me like start planning my move to America.
5:51
Zulma: So I told my therapist and who's like, congratulations, right.
5:55
Zulma: Like it was like the catalyst, like, ok, like no, you had to live life right now.
6:00
Zulma: And also I took it as an adventure, because when you don't have, when you have nothing, you really have nothing to lose.
6:08
Zulma: So I was like, well, if it doesn't work out, I can't come back Right, like 29 years later spoiler alert I'm still here.
6:17
Zulma: But I took it as an adventure.
6:20
Zulma: I was like everything like I arrived in America in December so, like all the decor, all the Christmas, it was like walking into a Hallmark movie.
6:32
Zulma: Reality set up pretty quick.
6:35
Zulma: But when I first started to America I was like it was so wonderful.
6:40
Zulma: I had an uncle and his family was living in California, so that's where I landed first.
6:47
Zulma: But, as I said, I was 31 and I do appreciate the help in at the beginning, but he was very he is a very controlling man and my cousins were around my age.
7:02
Zulma: I was like, let's say, 31.
7:05
Zulma: And my oldest cousin was 30 and 28 and whatever, and he couldn't control his kids.
7:11
Zulma: So he was trying to control me and I'm like, yeah, I do appreciate the space, but peace out, right, like I mean it's not, it's not working out for me.
7:23
Zulma: So I, I move out and I found another job and blah, blah, blah.
7:29
Zulma: And then I was transferred by my job to Nevada, uh, and I was like I move in April for four weeks, like it was kind of like an experiment and April in Nevada is windy but it's beautiful, right Like.
7:50
Zulma: So I was like, oh yeah, I moved.
7:52
Zulma: And then May, I was like it was 115 degrees already, like I was like, oh my God, right.
8:02
Zulma: Like I was living two blocks from the beach so I used to go watch the sunset every day.
8:08
Zulma: And then I moved here to the middle of the desert, right, and.
8:12
Zulma: But I just stay here and I had different jobs and I ended up working in an office and I was working in a big corporation doing accounting, which I love.
8:26
Zulma: Numbers are so black and white.
8:27
Zulma: Two plus two is for here in Argentina, in China, right.
8:35
Zulma: But I always had this passion for helping people.
8:40
Zulma: Like I will have people come to me and told me like, oh, share something profound.
8:46
Zulma: And like, oh, I never told this to anybody.
8:49
Zulma: I was like, okay, maybe I should start charging, right?
8:53
Zulma: Like so, what do I need to do?
8:54
Zulma: Okay, I need to go into social work.
8:56
Zulma: So my idea was to be a counselor, but my therapist at the time she's a licensed clinical social worker and she said, well, if you want to do this, I recommend that you go into social work, because if you get tired of doing therapy, you can do many other things.
9:15
Zulma: I was like, ok, I don't, I don't care.
9:19
Zulma: And so I started my bachelor's of social work and at 42, because I start thinking about my future.
9:27
Zulma: I'm like I'm not sure if I want to continue to do this for 25 years, and I think that is so important to remark that in order to start something new.
9:40
Zulma: So I start building my future by going to school, but I continue to work in accounting because I still have to pay bills, I have to eat, right.
9:50
Zulma: So I see that it's important to remark that you don't need to destroy what you are doing in order to build, so you can do those in parallel, right.
10:02
Zulma: So you start building my future while I continue to do what I was doing in the present.
10:08
Zulma: So I graduated at 46, I was on track to do my master's and six weeks after graduation I got diagnosed with breast cancer.
10:20
Zulma: So life is what happens when you have other plans, right?
10:24
Zulma: So, as you mentioned, I moved back to Argentina.
10:27
Zulma: I was there for about three years and at the beginning the treatment is very intensive but I had a lot of appointments.
10:37
Zulma: But then eventually you start kind of like the treatment works.
10:42
Zulma: So you have the appointments every three months or every six months, and I wanted to celebrate my 50th birthday in America.
10:51
Zulma: So I asked God for a sign and out of nowhere, like, is this the right thing to do?
11:00
Zulma: To move back right Out of nowhere?
11:03
Zulma: Careful what you ask for because out of nowhere.
11:05
Zulma: Careful what you asked for because out of nowhere.
11:07
Zulma: I got an email to my personal email from the university saying like hey, we have the advanced master of social work program.
11:16
Zulma: Do you want to enroll?
11:18
Zulma: I was like I asked for the sign and I got it and bought it right.
11:24
Zulma: So I and I realized that I'm getting ahead of myself because that was the question.
11:31
Zulma: But I came back and I enrolled in for my master's in my master's program and and I turned 50 in America.
11:49
Mary: And OK, I wait for the next question, and now you can talk as much as you want um see you are a therapist you know that's right.
11:59
Mary: Yeah, when you have two therapists, they're both like wait, I shouldn't talk so much, right.
12:05
Zulma: But we love the clients who disclose that right.
12:08
Zulma: Like you can talk because like okay, I'm listening.
12:11
Mary: Right, right, well, okay, so that move to come here to the United States.
12:22
Mary: You had that catalyst of recognizing okay, here's somebody that you care about and they don't have their life anymore.
12:26
Mary: And so you realized I need to get off my leap and go do what I want to do.
12:35
Mary: So I mean that had to be very challenging to come here.
12:41
Zulma: It was so when I came here.
12:43
Zulma: But again, I took it as an adventure, right.
12:45
Zulma: So everything was like oh my God.
12:48
Zulma: But I remember one of the first times that I ventured for a walk out of my uncle's house, I couldn't cross the street because you had to push the button at the light and I was like when are the cars going to stop Like I want?
13:07
Zulma: So I almost caused an accident because I was like I'm going right.
13:11
Zulma: So, and then I was telling the story and they were like, oh my God, you had to push the button.
13:16
Zulma: And I'm like well, how do I supposed to know that, like, the traffic lights are different in Argentina, right?
13:23
Zulma: And then I started.
13:26
Zulma: So I knew how to write and read English because I had English all throughout high school, but I didn't know how to speak because there was like 35 of us in the classroom so there was no time to practice and it wasn't until I moved.
13:44
Zulma: So when I first got here, I I enrolled in english at second language classes, but it was a similar experience because it was so so many of us that I was like, I'm not practicing, uh, communicate, verbal communication.
14:01
Zulma: And I was in, my uncle was living in a hispanic neighborhood, so instead of english, I learned mexican, right.
14:10
Zulma: So?
14:11
Zulma: And then when I moved, I moved into in an america, to an american neighborhood, if you would, and in three weeks I was speaking the language right like.
14:22
Zulma: So everybody makes fun of me that I learned uh to speak in a construction uh area, right like.
14:30
Zulma: But it's like, no, I incorporated the casting later, but at the beginning, um, I remember like I, I will say like more slowly, please, please, right, because we have a tendency to speak very fast in our native language and I used to work in a laundromat where you drop your clothes and then you can pick them up.
14:52
Zulma: If you wanted the shirts with the starch, like how you want it, you will have to slow down because otherwise I will do the starchanch how I wanted it right.
15:02
Zulma: So it was like more slowly, please, and people were very, very nice in the sense of like I felt that they appreciated that I was trying to learn the language, right.
15:15
Zulma: I had a lot of bullying throughout my life, but in that particular it was Playa del Rey where I used to live and work.
15:25
Zulma: People were very nice, so they were patient with me.
15:30
Zulma: I remember I was flirting with a guy, right with a customer, and I said I'm easy, and so he started laughing and he said I know what you mean, but what you want to say that I'm easy going, okay, I know what you mean, but what you want to say that I'm easy going, okay, that's his card.
15:50
Zulma: Like I was like I'm easy, right, like not that kind of easy.
15:53
Zulma: But then I learned and I start, you know it, as an adventure.
16:16
Zulma: Then everything is amazing, right, because it's like, oh my god, like I remember the first time that.
16:23
Zulma: So I immerse myself, like I was listening to the radio, watching TV, all in English, right, like so to to get my ears accustomed to that.
16:34
Zulma: And I remember the first time that I understood the time and the weather on the radio, oh my God, I got that, right.
16:44
Zulma: It was like it was so exciting because we take it for granted, right, it's like, oh my God, the time is 833 and the temperature.
16:54
Zulma: But the first time that I wasn't even paying attention and I got it was like, oh my God, I can understand English now.
17:03
Zulma: I can understand English now, yeah, right, yeah, something simple like that.
17:09
Zulma: I used to go to the movies and, like you know, there is no closed caption at the theater, right, so until I start, like, understanding more and more.
17:22
Zulma: So, maybe the first movie, probably, I got three ideas out of two hours.
17:26
Zulma: But as I continued to do it, I was like, oh, okay, that's how you do it, right, like by immersing yourself.
17:36
Mary: Yeah Well, I think you brought up a really good point about how do you frame a challenge and so we can see it as we can.
17:45
Mary: You know, I'm sure there were things that were a little fearful for you, like there's a lot of intimidating things.
17:51
Mary: It's not like you moved simply from one state to another and already knew English, and even that sometimes is a cultural shock.
18:00
Mary: But I think that sense of I can do this, even if you know there's going to be challenges and things that you have to overcome.
18:09
Mary: You know, I think sometimes we think about success as being linear, like we see, you know, especially we see online oh look, this person went to college, got this degree and now has this job.
18:22
Mary: And that is not how there's so much that happens on the journey, not how there's so much that happens on the journey.
18:29
Zulma: Well, you know what comes to mind.
18:30
Zulma: Choose your heart, right.
18:32
Zulma: Like being single is hard, being married is hard.
18:34
Zulma: Choose your heart Like having kids is hard, not having kids is hard.
18:40
Zulma: So it's kind of like I already knew living in Argentina was hard.
18:45
Zulma: So like living here is hard, but it's something that I'm choosing, it's like I'm gonna make the best out of it, right, yeah, and I and I did like giving up it wasn't a choice, yeah.
18:57
Zulma: So it was like okay, well, since I can, since I'm choosing, I was gonna say, since I cannot give up, but I always, you always can give up.
19:05
Zulma: But since I didn't consider that a choice, it's like okay, how I'm going to figure it out, because giving up is not an option.
19:14
Mary: So yeah, that forward momentum too.
19:17
Mary: I mean, once you started moving even though, like you had the landing spot with your uncle, and even then you were like you know what, I can't stay here either, I need to you kept striving.
19:28
Mary: Okay, so I have, I'm going to take a little side road.
19:31
Mary: So I'm curious about your sense of this.
19:34
Mary: This might sound a little woo-woo, but I have a theory that when we have a physical issue, it's kind of like an emotional issue we get stuck where we have things to work through.
19:46
Mary: So I'll speak for myself.
19:47
Mary: I had thyroid cancer and I sort of see that like I didn't use my voice and part of starting this podcast was to remedy that.
19:55
Mary: I feel like thyroid cancer was saying it's kind of like the chakras right, that energy got stuck at the base of my throat, so to speak.
20:06
Mary: So when I think about someone with breast cancer, I think did you have heartbreaks?
20:10
Mary: Do you have things where you felt like that energy for you was stuck in your hearts?
20:16
Zulma: No, yes, about 35, so mid-30s.
20:33
Zulma: I didn't have a voice either.
20:36
Zulma: The cultural part of Argentina.
20:41
Zulma: And my dad?
20:42
Zulma: He was born in Syria and he went to Argentina when he was 18.
20:47
Zulma: So it's like being a woman.
20:48
Zulma: I didn't have a voice there, right Like so, in a lot of heartbreak, in yes, absolutely, and I do believe that I follow the work of Louise Hay and you know that you can heal your body and and how cancer is.
21:08
Zulma: When you turn um hate toward yourself, right like so I do believe in that, where I was not taking care of me and being a people pleaser, in and cancer came to wake me up and put myself first, right Like, rearrange my priorities and I became my first priority taking care of me and putting myself first.
21:39
Zulma: I don't have children myself, but when you're a woman, it's kind of like you put yourself at the bottom, right, that's what is expected of you.
21:48
Zulma: Take care of everybody else and then, if you have time, you take care of you, and that completely changed those priorities.
21:58
Zulma: And I do believe that I had a lot of anger that I needed to process and that anger turned inside of me Right Um.
22:12
Zulma: The right side, if I'm not mistaken, is the father, and my dad had left when I was eight and there was a lot of unresolved issues with that.
22:24
Zulma: So it's kind of like you know, I do absolutely um attribute like any time that, um, our body is sick or presenting a different not wellness is is a message that if we don't listen to, it is is we're gonna pay the price later.
22:47
Zulma: Right like it's like you, um, I do believe in god, but god, universe, higher power, whatever, uh, your listeners believe in, it's like like we need to surrender.
23:00
Zulma: Right, we really need to surrender because control is an illusion.
23:05
Zulma: Right like we are thinking that, oh, I'm in control, we are not in control of anything, and if anybody is, please control the weather in Nevada, because we are melting here.
23:15
Zulma: But it's like, okay, it's not my job to control this, but I think that my job is to learn something from it.
23:26
Zulma: Right Like I always say, we're either happy or we are learning something.
23:29
Zulma: So what did the cancer came to teach me?
23:33
Zulma: And if I learn something from that situation, then it's not a missed opportunity because I'm learning something.
23:42
Zulma: Right?
23:43
Zulma: So I absolutely agree with you there is so much that our mind is so powerful.
23:50
Zulma: Right Like, so when, when I went to Argentina.
23:55
Zulma: So I have surgery in radiation here, but then I continue my treatment there.
24:03
Zulma: And I was in a in a hospital a public hospital in Buenos Aires.
24:07
Zulma: I was in a hospital a public hospital in Buenos Aires, and they're absolutely for cancer, like it's an oncology hospital, and they were prescribing me the chemo and I said what is the percentage you're giving me?
24:24
Zulma: And they said 50-50.
24:26
Zulma: And I said, no, you're going to do better than that.
24:29
Zulma: I'm not going to poison my entire body and by all means this is not medical advice.
24:34
Zulma: Talk to your doctor and follow whatever resonates with you.
24:40
Zulma: But I was like you had to do 80-20, 70-30, not 50-50.
24:46
Zulma: The doctor was a female doctor.
24:49
Zulma: She said if it was me, I will do it.
24:51
Zulma: I said, with all due respect, it's not you, this is my body.
24:56
Zulma: So, and going there from america, I'm like I sign whatever you want me to sign, right?
25:02
Zulma: Because, like if you think I'm gonna turn around and sue you because the cancer came back, I was was making an informed decision.
25:09
Zulma: I was always an active part of my medical treatment, so I'm not going to take it just because you are the doctor.
25:16
Zulma: I need to know why we are following this path right, because if you don't take care of your body, who would right?
25:24
Zulma: So I signed, I met, met with attorneys and blah, blah, blah, and then they came up with an alternative treatment.
25:32
Zulma: Oh see, there was another way of doing this.
25:37
Zulma: Right, but I risk being kicked out of as a patient because I'm not following hospital protocol.
25:44
Zulma: But if you don't put yourself first and you don't take care of you, and you don't, it's not like I went there and I said, oh, I don't want to lose my hair.
25:52
Zulma: I want to know why you are using this as a prevention when there is no evidence of cancer in my body.
25:59
Zulma: Right.
26:02
Zulma: So it's like, make it make sense to me, and then we talk about it.
26:06
Zulma: But just because that's what you do, I'm not so you are the expert in cancer because you're not an oncologist, but I'm the expert in my own body.
26:16
Zulma: Yeah, yeah, so we're gonna work together, right?
26:21
Zulma: Yep, so, and then I move here.
26:24
Zulma: When I move back, I had an excellent oncologist who will listen and he will share, and you know like it's like he's like I know that you, you are informed, and like so, and we discussed together.
26:38
Zulma: It's not like I'm saying no, I'm not gonna do it, I just want you to explain to me, yeah.
26:44
Mary: Because this is my body, yeah, and I think the medical system was set up to have an expert that you just, and you know we do have a lot of body intuition as women and we have often been silenced with.
26:58
Mary: You know, even when I felt the lump in my, where my thyroid is, I instinctively knew that doesn't belong there and I had many people say to me oh, even my doctor, who.
27:11
Mary: He said everybody thinks they have cancer, it's gonna be fine.
27:14
Mary: And when the biopsy came back and he had to call me and say, oh, it is cancer.
27:21
Mary: So I think, having that voice, even when you might have somebody push back, if you feel instinctively, get information.
27:28
Mary: If you feel instinctively, get information, you're exactly right, get information.
27:32
Mary: And I think it's interesting.
27:34
Mary: You brought up anger, because I've talked about this before with other guests about women and anger.
27:40
Mary: We have this idea that we're not supposed to be angry because it's ugly.
27:45
Mary: It's like an ugly emotion and so fascinating that one of the only acceptable emotions for men is anger, right, right.
27:54
Mary: So we stuff the anger and then it just is in there simmering.
28:01
Zulma: Absolutely, and not having a voice.
28:04
Zulma: Right Like, I'm a woman, I'm the youngest, like my brother, the firstborn is a man.
28:11
Zulma: So like, forget, forget about it.
28:13
Zulma: Right, like, and and then when I came here and I was like I was in class and I'm raising my hand and I'm participating and I'm like I found my voice, like I can verbalize the things here, right, like, and I I had a professor.
28:29
Zulma: She's like, we know, we know you find your voice, but because it's like I didn't, I didn't have a voice.
28:37
Zulma: So it's kind of like, oh, okay, and it's so ironic that now I'm doing podcasts and I have my own podcast.
28:49
Zulma: Right, I'm being a guest and I have my own podcast because I'm screaming at the top of my lungs now, right, and it's been 13 years that I've been cancer-free, praise the Lord.
29:01
Zulma: But it took me all that time.
29:04
Zulma: Right, because I started in October of last year as a Breast Cancer Awareness Month.
29:09
Zulma: I did my first podcast, oh, wow, as a guest to bring in honor of Breast Cancer Awareness Month, and it's like then it took me until February to have my own show.
29:23
Zulma: Right, and it's like I'm still finding my voice, but now I'm a lot louder than I was when I was living there and I'm like, no, you know what it's, there is no tomorrow.
29:36
Zulma: Nobody has tomorrow guaranteed, right?
29:38
Zulma: So I?
29:39
Zulma: I celebrated my 60th birthday in Hawaii at the end of June and then, a month later, there was the tsunami warnings and everything that happened last week.
29:50
Zulma: And it humbled me so much because I took it for granted Everything that I did.
29:56
Zulma: I just went for the weekend, but I took for granted everything that I'd done.
30:01
Zulma: And these people, a month later, they didn't have that opportunity.
30:05
Zulma: So it humbled me so much and I'm like we need to plan as if we're going to live forever, but we need to live as if we're going to die tomorrow.
30:20
Mary: Yeah, yeah, and life gave you several reminders about that, right?
30:25
Mary: Oh yeah, and if you remember things happening when you were a kid where you started to get this message of like you're too loud, you're too colorful, you're too big, do you remember that?
30:57
Zulma: I cannot pinpoint a particular age, but yes, in a sense of like oh well, you're little, I'm a princess, I'm beautiful, I'm this, I'm that.
31:09
Zulma: And then at a certain age it's like oh yeah, yeah, but we don't say those things, we wait for other people right to say it, because we don't want to sound conceited, right Like, oh, I'm old and right now I'm all that.
31:24
Zulma: Want to sound conceited, right Like, oh, I'm, I'm all, right now, I'm all that in a bag of chips, right Like, and I say it, but but it's like I don't, honestly, I don't remember, but it was kind of like yeah, we don't, we don't say that about ourselves.
31:38
Zulma: Well, men don't have those restrictions, right Like.
31:45
Zulma: I always like if a woman goes to an interview and she doesn't get the job, she starts thinking what did I do wrong?
31:52
Zulma: A man goes to the same interview, he doesn't get the job and he's like well, is that lost?
31:58
Zulma: Right?
31:59
Zulma: And I think that's such a cultural thing, but also that we are wired differently.
32:05
Zulma: So it's like oh, okay, the man doesn't spend the whole afternoon thinking what did I do wrong.
32:14
Zulma: They say like the company is wrong for not hiring him.
32:19
Mary: Yeah, it's sort of the opposite.
32:21
Mary: I feel like men aren't allowed to be small, they aren't allowed to have the softer emotions, right, and we're not supposed to really take up our space.
32:31
Mary: And you know, we don't apply for jobs unless we feel like we have nearly 100% of the qualifications.
32:38
Mary: And men are like I got 60.
32:40
Mary: I'm good, I'm going to go in and see what happens, right.
32:43
Zulma: But absolutely Right and it's like okay, yeah, so, but I think it's part of how not only the the nature and nurture right, like it's how we are wider, but also in society where it's like, yeah, like we don't Right.
33:04
Zulma: Society where it's like, yeah, like we don't right.
33:12
Zulma: So I think I will say I would venture about 10, maybe 11 years old that I will start getting that message that we'll wait for other people to tell us right, and then we become dependent of the external validation but we have no control over that.
33:27
Zulma: So if I don't validate myself, I might spend my entire life waiting for that external validation and it's like no, I got this, I'm doing this.
33:40
Zulma: Like, what other validation do you need?
33:44
Zulma: Right, like, oh, you did a good job.
33:46
Zulma: It's like when I remember when I did my master's and and remember I was 50 when I started, so half of my like my, my cohort was like half my age.
33:58
Zulma: Right, like, uh, and, and I'm like I was so obsessed with a 4.0 GPA right that I miss actually enjoying the journey because I was so concerned about the grade.
34:11
Zulma: And if I can go back, I will completely enjoy the journey.
34:17
Zulma: If I didn't get a hundred, it's like, even though, if I got an eight, what was in it?
34:22
Zulma: A hundred, right, and there were people who will kill for a C, right, yeah, and I'm crying because I didn't get an A Like B.
34:33
Zulma: What is wrong with you?
34:34
Zulma: Right, because it's like, but if it wasn't perfect, it was not good enough.
34:40
Zulma: Oh, yeah, and it's like my diploma.
34:45
Zulma: I did graduate with a 4.0 gpa and my diploma was not bigger than nobody else.
34:52
Zulma: No, it's not right.
34:55
Zulma: Yeah, but those are the things that you learn after, right, like?
35:00
Zulma: It's like.
35:00
Zulma: Who cares?
35:01
Zulma: That is a b.
35:03
Zulma: If you need a c to pass, who cares?
35:05
Zulma: Right, because I got my internship and then, the first time I took the clinical exam, I fell.
35:14
Zulma: So my 4.0 didn't mean anything.
35:17
Zulma: Yeah, because I was so cocky I'm like, I just read the material and I was like, oh, this was so easy.
35:25
Zulma: Yeah, it was so easy because I was wrong.
35:28
Zulma: So I was like stunned, believe it or not.
35:32
Zulma: I didn't speak for like three hours and then, when I took it the second time and I passed I you know, like, you raise your hand, you're not supposed to turn it and I started crying.
35:46
Zulma: I was sobbing and the lady said you know, you pass, right, I was like, yeah, I know, and I was crying for like another three hours because I'm like the anxiety that I had taking the test the second time, because I was like, oh, my God, you know.
36:06
Zulma: So even that didn't help me in real life.
36:13
Zulma: When it was time to take the exam, right, the most important exam in your career, yeah, I failed.
36:19
Zulma: That was the only exam that I failed, big humbling moment, right, because again I saw that I was all that and a bag of chips and I don't need to study.
36:29
Zulma: Yeah, okay, yeah, start picking up the studying material.
36:34
Zulma: Right, like so, but even that didn't stop me.
36:37
Zulma: Right, like you need to wait three months to retest.
36:40
Zulma: And I enrolled immediately for another three months, months, and then I went and I took it again.
36:48
Zulma: So it's like being a therapist was so important to me, being an independently licensed was so important to me, that I'm like, okay, well, I need to take the test again.
37:02
Zulma: I'm oversimplifying now.
37:05
Zulma: At the time it wasn't like, oh, okay, I need to take it again.
37:08
Zulma: But now, looking back, it's like, okay, you fell down, get up and try again.
37:18
Mary: Yeah Right, yeah Well, and it's interesting because that idea of perfectionism, you know, and that's often, I think, when older people go back to school, they have a lot of experience but they're like I need to get you know.
37:31
Mary: But, first of all, I love that you did that at that age, because I have people I probably hear once a month from my clients well, if I wasn't 52, I would do this.
37:43
Mary: And I'm like, well, you're still going to be 52, whether you do it.
37:46
Mary: I mean, I think we can always find reasons to not.
37:50
Mary: Like you said, there could always have been a reason for you to give up and go back home or go back to work, you know, right.
37:56
Mary: But I think it's that when we fail and this is a word that I think has got, it's kind of like the word lazy, where we've started to imbue it with all of this nasty stuff that if you spend a day watching Netflix, you're not lazy, like your body needs something.
38:13
Mary: If you do that, if you do it every single day for three months, you might want to, you know, but I think we do that with the word fail and you can never ever grow if you don't fail, because what did it teach you Like the lessons are okay, like it didn't matter that I earned grades on tests.
38:33
Mary: I need to be able to do this thing.
38:35
Mary: This is the important thing.
38:37
Mary: And you know, I'm sure for a while you sort of lick your wounds right and curl up and say, oh damn it.
38:45
Mary: Like look what just happened.
38:46
Mary: But it's also like, well, this is important.
38:49
Mary: And it doesn't mean I don't belong at the table, it just means I had a lesson to learn and now I'm going to do better.
38:58
Zulma: Absolutely.
38:59
Zulma: And you know when I have clients telling me like, oh, I'm too old, I'm like, oh, you are barking at the wrong tree.
39:07
Zulma: I started my bachelor's at 42 and my master's at 50 and English is not my first language, what is your excuse?
39:14
Zulma: Right, like so we?
39:15
Zulma: We get so caught up in motivation and motivate.
39:20
Zulma: You have done stuff that you were not motivated to do your entire life.
39:26
Zulma: So it's not motivation Motivation is overrated it's discipline.
39:30
Zulma: Do you have the discipline to do it?
39:34
Zulma: That day that you were dying and you got up and you didn't tell your baby like, yeah, sorry, I'm not going to breastfeed because I don't feel good, come back tomorrow.
39:43
Zulma: You got up and you did it.
39:44
Zulma: You were not motivated, and yet you did it.
39:46
Zulma: You were not motivated and yet you did it, right at the time that you want to work, although you wanted to kill your coworker, you were not motivated.
39:54
Zulma: So you have done things you were not motivated to do your entire life.
39:59
Zulma: It's not a matter of I'm not motivated, I'm not disciplined enough, right, like even cancer didn't.
40:08
Zulma: So, if anything, cancer came to show me how bad.
40:12
Zulma: I wanted to be a therapist, because nobody would help blame me if I'm like I just stopped at my bachelor's or went back to accounting or whatever, but I'm like no, I mean like this was a setback.
40:30
Zulma: It slowed me down, but it didn't stop me, right?
40:35
Zulma: So it's like, you know, going back at the beginning, when you were talking about self-disclosure, like yes, I do share with my clients that I, I'm a cancer survivor, because that helps us connect on a human level.
40:51
Zulma: Right, yeah, it's like, oh, yeah, like she said I'm the expert and say I barely know what to do with my life, let alone tell you what to do with yours, but we're gonna find the answers together.
41:02
Zulma: Yeah, right, like I'm, like I don't you come to me for answers like you are in bad luck, but we are going to find them together, and I think that that's why therapy is so important.
41:15
Zulma: Can you do it by yourself?
41:17
Zulma: Absolutely, but you don't have to right, absolutely right, yeah.
41:22
Zulma: So it's like my job as a therapist is to provide you with a different perspective and help you find the answers, but I'm not going to do it for you.
41:32
Zulma: You still have to do the work.
41:33
Zulma: Yeah, right, yeah.
41:35
Zulma: So it's like you are at the driver's seat, but if you don't turn the ignition on, we are not going anywhere.
41:42
Mary: Yeah, yeah niche and all we are not going anywhere.
41:45
Mary: Yeah yeah, because we're not moving.
41:47
Mary: Yeah Well, there's one other thing I want to ask you about because I think that idea of you know, sometimes in therapy we think if I just go to a therapist, everything is going to be all better and we make things a lot better but we never really fully arrive and stay okay, because that's not how life works.
42:07
Mary: So I know we work with irrational beliefs, right Things that we believe, and I say irrational because it just means it doesn't bear up to evidence, like there's no evidence that these things are true.
42:21
Mary: So for me sometimes it can be like I'm too much for certain people.
42:25
Mary: I have things, though I like them the way they are.
42:28
Mary: You know, there's certain things that maybe I'm too much and I think these things can still come up.
42:34
Mary: It doesn't matter how much we work on them or how much we feel healthy at certain times.
42:40
Mary: It's not, like I said, with success.
42:43
Mary: It's not.
42:43
Mary: Life isn't linear.
42:44
Mary: So do you have things where sometimes they trip you up and you have to sort of get back on the path and remind yourself of certain things, of course, all the time, like when I tell my clients, oh, my therapy said, and they're like oh, you go to therapy?
43:01
Zulma: Yeah, I'm like, I think that therapy is.
43:05
Zulma: So we go to the gym in order to prevent the heart attack, right, and going to therapy is like, is a gym for mental health?
43:18
Zulma: Because when you are in the picture, you cannot see, see the picture.
43:23
Zulma: So I teach my clients a lot about personalization and the cycle of anger and all that.
43:29
Zulma: And then, or the assertiveness formula, and then, when I'm getting angry, I'm like okay, hello, look in the mirror, right, like.
43:37
Zulma: Are you taking it personal?
43:39
Zulma: Right, like.
43:39
Zulma: And then what helps me is that, yes, I am personalizing.
43:43
Zulma: So it's not that I'm not getting angry, it's that I don't stay angry as long as before, right, but I always go back to my therapist.
43:54
Zulma: She is providing this neutral perspective that I cannot see because I am in the picture.
44:02
Zulma: Yeah, right.
44:03
Zulma: So I cannot see Because I am in the picture, so I need that.
44:05
Zulma: And there is, like, this stigma Still all these years later About therapy and mental health.
44:12
Zulma: And it's like Well, you go to the gym, right?
44:15
Zulma: Yeah, what's the difference?
44:18
Zulma: And I have a lot of long term clients that are on a maintenance pattern now, but when life happens, it's like you, you got my number.
44:30
Zulma: Like you need to wait for another month to tell me, like, reach out to me and we take care of whatever.
44:38
Zulma: And then we get back right, like, so to normal or whatever that word means.
44:44
Zulma: So it's like this again.
44:48
Zulma: Like, can I do it by myself?
44:50
Zulma: Yes, but I don't have to.
44:51
Zulma: Right, no need to reinvent the wheel.
44:55
Zulma: I call my therapist and I'm like oh, I need an appointment.
44:59
Zulma: Right, like, so in, you know.
45:02
Zulma: And then when I'm talking to my therapist, I'm like oh, but this is what I tell my clients all the time.
45:09
Zulma: Right, but again, like, I need that external reminder because I can tell you all about, like, how I see it.
45:24
Zulma: But when it's about me, the vision is distorted.
45:26
Zulma: Right, about me, the vision is distorted, right.
45:29
Zulma: So, like, have you ever taken a picture?
45:30
Zulma: And you look at the picture and you're like, oh, my god, I'm fat or I'm ugly or whatever.
45:32
Zulma: And it's like, don't you have a mirror?
45:34
Zulma: But it's like it's different when you look at the picture.
45:37
Zulma: That's not how I see myself, right, so I'm like.
45:42
Zulma: So one time my therapist I was having, uh, like body, uh, uh, body image issues in my therapist.
45:52
Zulma: She is so amazing, like if I can be one percent of what this woman is.
45:57
Zulma: So she, she started asking me like if you see somebody like you in the waiting room, you know like what would you think of that person?
46:05
Zulma: I'm like, oh, she looks healthy, blah, blah, blah.
46:07
Zulma: And so she was asking these general questions and then she turned around on me and she's like then why do you say that you're fat?
46:17
Zulma: And I was like bitch, you know, like I was like shame on you.
46:23
Zulma: But it was like so, true, true, because we are our worst enemies.
46:29
Zulma: Yes, so if I see somebody like me in the waiting room, I think that that person is healthy, but when I look at the picture, I think that I'm fat and ugly and old and whatever.
46:42
Zulma: How do you right?
46:45
Zulma: How do you make sense of that?
46:47
Zulma: Right, and I love that, because I don't.
46:51
Zulma: So I understand, I'm not everybody's cup of tea when it comes to therapy, right, like in my consultation call, the F word is going to come out, the B word is going to come out.
47:02
Zulma: So if you have a problem with that, I'm not the therapist for you and I'm fine with that.
47:07
Zulma: I'll give you referrals.
47:08
Zulma: I want you to get better.
47:10
Zulma: It doesn't have to be with me, yeah, Right, but if you decide to be my client, we are going to hit the ground running.
47:18
Zulma: Are you ready to get better?
47:19
Zulma: Because we are going to do the work, because we are going to do the work, you are going to do the work.
47:25
Zulma: I'm going to be guiding you, but it's like I'm not.
47:30
Zulma: This is your life.
47:31
Zulma: Why don't you want to get better right now?
47:34
Zulma: Right, like.
47:35
Zulma: So if you're not ready, you're going to find out really quick, because I'm like, yeah, when I say we're hitting the ground running, bring your tennis shoes, because we're going to run right.
47:50
Zulma: So it's like a lot of people might be, like, they might think that they are ready and then they are not.
47:56
Zulma: That's fine, I will give you a referral, but it takes so much out of a person to call a therapist, so it's like that is huge.
48:06
Zulma: So let's start there, right?
48:09
Zulma: What are your goals?
48:10
Zulma: What is it that you want to achieve?
48:12
Zulma: And then we decide together if we are a good fit.
48:18
Zulma: I don't take it personal if you think that we are not a good fit.
48:23
Zulma: I want you to get better.
48:25
Zulma: If we don't click, you're not going to trust me, so you're not going to get better because we're not going to get anywhere.
48:33
Zulma: This is like oh, I hate her or I love her.
48:37
Zulma: Either way, I sleep at night.
48:41
Mary: Well, yeah, and it's.
48:41
Mary: It is something where I think people show up to therapy probably for, let's say, the first time and they don't have a good experience and then they'll say, oh, therapy doesn't work.
48:52
Mary: It's like, well, we are all different and we are all human and it's kind of like roofers Like.
48:58
Mary: Sometimes people put a roof on your house and it leaks and they suck and they're not good roofers.
49:03
Mary: House and it leaks and they suck and they're not good roofers.
49:07
Mary: So you know I think you brought up a good point too that I don't all the best therapists I know have been or are in therapy, because it isn't.
49:14
Mary: We don't corner the market on helping.
49:17
Mary: You know there's you're better if you're aware of what your own issues are.
49:22
Mary: That is so, so important and it doesn't mean weakness.
49:26
Mary: And, just as we talked about earlier, if you don't tend to your emotional wounds, they're gonna become physical.
49:33
Mary: Your body is going to make you pay attention to it and so many people, I think, end up in therapy because something physical happened.
49:42
Mary: So I think just paying attention to life is going to tap you on the shoulder and if you continue to ignore it, you're going to get smacked in the head and it's going to be your wounds inside.
49:56
Mary: People don't always see, but they do become physical.
50:00
Mary: I mean, we're 360.
50:02
Mary: We are full beings, so you can't just go and treat your depression without looking at what are you eating and how are you sleeping and what are your relationships.
50:13
Mary: You know those things are so important.
50:15
Mary: So this has been such an energetic and fun conversation.
50:21
Mary: So can you tell everybody again what is your podcast?
50:25
Mary: Where can they find you?
50:27
Mary: What do you offer?
50:28
Mary: All of those things?
50:28
Mary: Thank you so much, yes.
50:31
Zulma: So my podcast is called Keeping it Real with Zulma the swearing therapist, and yes, there's a lot of swearing in there.
50:38
Zulma: You can find it in any platforms where you usually listen to your podcast platforms where you usually listen to your podcast.
50:44
Zulma: My Instagram is the swearing therapist, of course, and my website is dragonflytherapy servicesnet.
50:59
Zulma: So I'm licensed in Nevada, so that means that the clients need to be in Nevada at the time of service.
51:02
Zulma: But even if you are not in Nevada and you need something, reach out to me and if I cannot provide it, I certainly can provide you with resources.
51:11
Zulma: So I look forward to connecting.
51:17
Mary: Yes, and I will put all the links in the show notes.
51:19
Mary: And that is something for people who don't know.
51:21
Mary: Unfortunately, therapists are still licensed by state.
51:24
Mary: So it's a crazy ridiculous, outdated thing.
51:28
Mary: But you can only see clients in the state or states where you're licensed, unlike coaching, where there are no boundaries and less training.
51:37
Mary: So we won't get on that, because I do coaching too.
51:43
Mary: Know, you have to be very clear and very ethical when you are, you know, talking about the difference.
51:47
Mary: But yeah, that's sometimes where, because we now do, we can do teletherapy.
51:52
Mary: It's sometimes kind of like yeah, I'm sorry you're one state away, but that means we can't work together.
51:58
Mary: So we're working on changing that.
52:00
Mary: There's a lot of change coming, but it's.
52:02
Mary: You know, change is very slow.
52:03
Mary: So thank you, zulma, so much for being here.
52:06
Mary: This has been just a delight and you did really good.
52:09
Mary: You only said biatch, so that's really good, right, see, thank you so much.
52:14
Zulma: I I need, I needed that positive reinforcement Like thank you, uh, and I was very conscious about talking, but it's been such a pleasure.
52:23
Zulma: And, yeah, you only have one word to bleep and the entire interview, so yay for me, but it's been such a pleasure having this experience with you, mary, thank you.
52:36
Mary: And thank you to everyone who listened.
52:38
Mary: If you know anyone who could benefit from Zulma's inspiring story, please forward this episode and, until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.
52:50
Mary: Thank you.