Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #310 Guest Host Laura Nirider with Herman Williams

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#310 Guest Host Laura Nirider with Herman Williams · Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Vlam, host of Rafel Conviction, but this week,
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Speaker 1: instead of hearing me, I've invited a legitimate genius from
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Speaker 1: the legal world to bring their knowledge and expertise to
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Speaker 1: the conversation as guest host Here at Raefel Conviction, we
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Speaker 1: believe that sharing the stories of the incarcerated innocent can
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Speaker 1: create real change in the world, even beyond what these
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Speaker 1: real life legal superheroes do every day.
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Speaker 2: In September nineteen ninety three, Herman Williams lived with his
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Speaker 2: ex wife Penny in an apartment in Lake County, Illinois.
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Speaker 2: Even though he and Penny were divorced, they still had
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Speaker 2: a great relationship, sharing household duties and the care of
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Speaker 2: their two kids. Herman had joined the Navy as a
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Speaker 2: young man, and he planned to spend his entire career
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Speaker 2: in the armed forces. He was deployed to the Persian
0:52
Speaker 2: Gulf and earned distinction for his service. By nineteen ninety three,
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Speaker 2: he was making plans to move to San Diego, California,
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Speaker 2: where he would join the crew of a Navy ship
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Speaker 2: and had back out to see Penny and the kids
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Speaker 2: would stay in the apartment in Illinois, but none of
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Speaker 2: these plans would materialize. On Sunday, September twenty sixth, Penny's
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Speaker 2: lifeless body was found floating in a pond. She'd been
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Speaker 2: missing for several days, with Herman frantically trying to find her.
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Speaker 2: The police decided early in their investigation that Herman had
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Speaker 2: to be responsible for Penny's death, and they only looked
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Speaker 2: for evidence to confirm that theory. In all their recorded
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Speaker 2: interviews with Herman, he denied killing Penny or knowing anything
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Speaker 2: about how she died. But weeks later, the detectives claimed
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Speaker 2: that Herman had confessed. With this fabricated confession and a
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Speaker 2: woefully underprepared defense team, Herman Williams was convicted of first
1:53
Speaker 2: degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole.
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Speaker 2: This is wrongful Conviction. Hey guys, it's Laura and I writer,
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Speaker 2: and I am so honored to be guest hosting this
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Speaker 2: episode of Wrongful Conviction. I'm the co director of the
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Speaker 2: Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, and you might
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Speaker 2: recognize my voice from another series I co host on
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Speaker 2: this same podcast, feed False Confessions. Now, if you've listened
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Speaker 2: to False Confessions, you know that usually in these cases
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Speaker 2: we see police using coersive tactics that can pressure vulnerable
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Speaker 2: people into admitting to crimes they didn't commit. But Herman's
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Speaker 2: story is different. Herman was never forced to admit to
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Speaker 2: a crime. Instead, the police completely made up his confession,
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Speaker 2: a total lie. Herman, I am so pleased to have
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Speaker 2: you here today to talk about your story, and we're
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Speaker 2: also by your two rockstar attorneys. Could you introduce yourselves
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Speaker 2: for our audience.
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Speaker 3: I'm Herman Williams. I did twenty nine years for a
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Speaker 3: crime I didn't commit, and I owe my life to
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Speaker 3: the Innosons Project.
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Speaker 4: I'm Lauren Keasberg. I'm co director at the Illinois Innissonce Project.
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Speaker 3: Hi.
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Speaker 5: I'm Fanessa Potkin. I'm the director of Special Litigation at
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Speaker 5: the Innocence Project.
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Speaker 2: So, Herman, I want to start out by asking you
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Speaker 2: to take us back to before all of this happens.
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Speaker 2: You grew up in Arizona and as a young man.
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Speaker 2: When I hear about your life, it seems to me
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Speaker 2: that there were two things, two big things in your
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Speaker 2: life for you as a young man. One was the
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Speaker 2: Navy and one was Penny. Can you tell us about
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Speaker 2: those two things?
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Speaker 3: You know, I was a typical teenage kid, I didn't
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Speaker 3: know what I wanted to do in life or anything.
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Speaker 3: And I ended up joining the Navy mainly because the
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Speaker 3: first time I was the ocean, it was just awesome.
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Speaker 3: I just found my place. It was me, it was home.
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Speaker 3: I had every intention of basically being in the Navy
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Speaker 3: until they told me I had to take my walker
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Speaker 3: and get out. Penny. She was still in my heart,
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Speaker 3: a terrific woman, and how that day goes by, I
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Speaker 3: don't miss her. But yeah, you know, our biggest problem
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Speaker 3: was I was all Navy and she just wasn't made
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Speaker 3: to be a Navy wife. So we ended up divorcing,
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Speaker 3: and as far as I believe, it was the best
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Speaker 3: thing that happened to our relationship. We got closer as
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Speaker 3: a divorced couple than we did when we were married.
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Speaker 3: It's hard to explain, but that's the way it was.
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Speaker 2: And you, if I've got this right, you won some
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Speaker 2: recognition for your work in the Navy, didn't you.
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Speaker 3: You know, when I was on active duty, I didn't
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Speaker 3: do it for the medals. I didn't do it for
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Speaker 3: the accommodations. You know, I was happy with a thank
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Speaker 3: you at a boy type stuff. But now you know,
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Speaker 3: I would like them to at least acknowledge my place
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Speaker 3: in the Navy, because I feel like they abandoned me
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Speaker 3: when all this took place.
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Speaker 2: Well, you're too modest to say that you're a decorated VET,
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Speaker 2: but I'm going to say it right now. I'm going
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Speaker 2: to say thank you for your service, and I am
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Speaker 2: going to say you deserve all the recognition in the
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Speaker 2: world for that service that you gave to our country.
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Speaker 3: Thank you.
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Speaker 2: So while your young naval office, you, you are married
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Speaker 2: to Penny, you are having adventures in between deployments. You
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Speaker 2: guys are traveling, going to Hawaii, You're going to Mexico.
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Speaker 2: You're living the life of a young married couple, and
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Speaker 2: you have two kids. Tell me about your kids.
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Speaker 3: Hermon, when all this happened, Charlie was six and Crystal
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Speaker 3: was two. Charlie was awesome. You know, he was a
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Speaker 3: people pleaser, he likes to make people happy. And Crystal,
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Speaker 3: you know, she was a precocious, two handful daddy's little monster,
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Speaker 3: however you want to label her. I mean, I admit
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Speaker 3: I had more focus on the Navy than I did
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Speaker 3: as me and a father. But while I was out,
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Speaker 3: I made sure that the kids needed for nothing, and
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Speaker 3: when Penny had came back to Illinois, it was kind
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Speaker 3: of cool because I was actually getting an opportunity to
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Speaker 3: know my kids.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so at one point you and Penny decide to
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Speaker 2: go separate ways. You move up to Illinois. You're stationed
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Speaker 2: at the Great Lakes Naval Base, which is just north
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Speaker 2: of Chicago, and despite the fact that you and Penny
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Speaker 2: aren't together, she ends up moving up to Illinois as well.
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Speaker 2: Tell me about that.
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Speaker 3: When Penny came up here, it's like, well, why don't
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Speaker 3: she just stay in the apartment and then she can
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Speaker 3: take the apartment over When I head back to see that,
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Speaker 3: I was fixing to go to San Diego.
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Speaker 2: And tell me about that arrangement. How'd that work?
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Speaker 3: The kids had one bedroom that they were sharing and
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Speaker 3: Penny took the other bedroom, and I was sleeping on
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Speaker 3: the sofa bed and it was working out really fine.
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Speaker 2: So you're there in the Navy station at the Great
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Speaker 2: Lakes Naval Base September ninety three. Penny and the kids
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Speaker 2: are with you, And this is where I want to
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Speaker 2: bring in Lauren and Vanessa, your two rockstar attorneys, and
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Speaker 2: ask you to talk about the crime that happened that
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Speaker 2: is the reason that we're all here today talking about
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Speaker 2: this case. What happened to Penny around this time.
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Speaker 4: So you know what's so interesting in this case is
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Speaker 4: that after presenting herman for a number of years, we
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Speaker 4: received a report from a forensic pathologist which actually sort
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Speaker 4: of flipped this whole case on its head. And the
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Speaker 4: true answer is, we don't know what happened to Penny.
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Speaker 4: What we do know is that on Sunday, September twenty
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Speaker 4: sixth of nineteen ninety three, she was found in a
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Speaker 4: pond in Waukegan, in a very remote location.
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Speaker 6: She was deceased.
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Speaker 4: She had been beaten very severely with a blunt object.
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Speaker 4: She was fully clothed, wearing a floral patterned blouse that
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Speaker 4: was a button up that was neatly tucked into jeans,
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Speaker 4: and she had been clearly attacked. There were defensive wounds
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Speaker 4: on her arms which showed that she fought for her life,
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Speaker 4: and that discovery was made on that Sunday, And we.
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Speaker 2: Can get into all that in a minute. But this
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Speaker 2: is Penny in her late twenties. She's got two kids,
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Speaker 2: she's got a life and a future ahead of her,
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Speaker 2: and she turns up dead in a pond in rural
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Speaker 2: Lake County, Illinois and an area that's pretty far off
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Speaker 2: the beaten path. Now, I want to talk for a
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Speaker 2: minute about Lake County, Illinois, which is where the naval
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Speaker 2: base was, which is where you were living, Hermon, and
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Speaker 2: which is where this happened to Penny. Lake County, Illinois
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Speaker 2: is known like Cook County, it's neighbor to the south
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Speaker 2: in Illinois, as unfortunately a hub for false confessions and
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Speaker 2: as we're going to hear in this case, fabricated confessions,
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Speaker 2: confessions it never even happened. But Lauren, can you tell
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Speaker 2: us a little bit more about your experience with Lake
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Speaker 2: County because it is really ground zero. You know, you
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Speaker 2: hear about these places where where it seems like time
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Speaker 2: runs backward. In Lake County, Illinois, it feels like justice
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Speaker 2: runs backward, right, like you're always pushing against these headwinds
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Speaker 2: that just want to deny that truth, want to deny DNA,
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Speaker 2: want to deny overwhelming evidence of innocence. Lauren, tell us
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Speaker 2: about your work in Lake County.
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Speaker 4: I remember in two thousand and I think it was
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Speaker 4: fourteen when we first evaluated Herman's case at the Illinois
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Speaker 4: Innocence Project, and seeing it on paper for the very
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Speaker 4: first time. I remember where I was sitting in the
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Speaker 4: room hearing about his case because I saw all the players,
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Speaker 4: I saw what the evidence was against him, and I
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Speaker 4: remember saying, hand me that paper, this is my case.
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Speaker 4: This man is innocent. I can tell you right now
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Speaker 4: from who these people are and what they're claiming this
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Speaker 4: evidence is. There's going to be something to this case.
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Speaker 4: Mike Marmal himself is a character, this prosecutor who is
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Speaker 4: responsible for many years lost to innocent men in prison,
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Speaker 4: despite having evidence of their innocence. Just this callousness and
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Speaker 4: the lack of professionalism and morals and ethics is just unbelievable.
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Speaker 4: And for years, everyone that practiced in that county knew
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Speaker 4: exactly who he was, knew what his reputation was, and
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Speaker 4: allowed him to get away with these things. And Herman
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Speaker 4: is an unconscionable example of misconduct that has occurred in
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Speaker 4: that county.
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Speaker 2: Blake County is a serial offender place. There's absolutely nothing
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Speaker 2: else we can say when it comes to wrongful convictions.
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Speaker 2: But I want to get back to our story here.
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Speaker 2: Penny's found on Sunday, September twenty sixth, nineteen ninety three
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Speaker 2: in that pond in Waukegan, Illinois, and months before trial,
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Speaker 2: the coroner's office gives a time of death estimate that
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Speaker 2: ranges from Wednesday into Friday. So the big question then
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Speaker 2: becomes who would do this? Now, we all know that
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Speaker 2: in cases like this, right, especially in the nineteen nineties,
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Speaker 2: spouses ex spouses always jumped to the top of the
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Speaker 2: suspect list. And so if we're looking at a timeline
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Speaker 2: of Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday, one of the really big
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Speaker 2: questions in this case is herman and his alibi. So, Lauren,
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Speaker 2: can you walk us through what Herman was doing on
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Speaker 2: those days that Penny disappeared.
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Speaker 4: The night before Penny disappeared, which was Whyesday, September twenty second,
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Speaker 4: Herman and Penny had gone out to go indially to
12:07
Speaker 4: go to the movies, and they had a neighbor who
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Speaker 4: lived downstairs named Wayne and his wife, and they had
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Speaker 4: kids who were of the same age as Herman and Penny,
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Speaker 4: so kids, so the two families would sort of swap
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Speaker 4: childcare and help babysit each other's kids. So that Wednesday night,
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Speaker 4: Herman and Penny had gone out to go to the
12:24
Speaker 4: movies a variety of other things. After the movie had
12:27
Speaker 4: already started and they missed the show. They come back
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Speaker 4: that Wednesday night together. Their neighbor sees Herman and Penny
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Speaker 4: together as he initially tells the police, and they pick
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Speaker 4: up their kids. They go upstairs.
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Speaker 6: They all go to bed.
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Speaker 4: Thursday morning, Herman wakes up early, as per usual being
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Speaker 4: a navy man and reporting to base, you know, in
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Speaker 4: the very early hours of the morning, gets up, sees
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Speaker 4: the Penny as there knows that Penny has the day
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Speaker 4: off of work that day, so she's kind of helping
12:55
Speaker 4: get Charlie ready for school, who's their six year old son.
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Speaker 4: Herman takes their two year old daughter, drops her off
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Speaker 4: at the babysitter as he usually does on the way
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Speaker 4: to base, and goes to work for the day. Charlie,
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Speaker 4: their six year old son, is taken downstairs to the
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Speaker 4: neighbor who is responsible for getting the kids to school
13:15
Speaker 4: that morning. Right before they leave for school, the neighbor
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Speaker 4: sends Charlie back upstairs to say to find out who's
13:22
Speaker 4: picking up the kids from school at the end of
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Speaker 4: the day, and Charlie comes back down after going back
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Speaker 4: up to his apartment and reports back, my mom's not
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Speaker 4: home anymore. She left with someone. She left in a
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Speaker 4: car with someone from work, and so it's like no
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Speaker 4: big deal. Everyone moves on with their day. The kids
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Speaker 4: go to school, Herman gets done with work that day.
13:40
Speaker 4: On Thursday, picks up Chrystal from daycare, picks up the
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Speaker 4: other kids, and he's already He and Penny had arranged
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Speaker 4: to watch Wayne's kids on Thursday night, so he gets
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Speaker 4: Wayne's two children as well. So Herman is in tow
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Speaker 4: with these four kids, I think, all under the age
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Speaker 4: of six or seven, and sort of runs some errands
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Speaker 4: with them, stops at the mall, to the T shirt store,
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Speaker 4: and visits Kitty at the mall. And I think as
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Speaker 4: the day goes on on Thursday, there's some sort of
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Speaker 4: lingering question of you know, where's Penny. Why isn't Penny calling?
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Speaker 4: You know, she had the day off today, she knows
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Speaker 4: we're watching the kids. You know where's Penny. But no
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Speaker 4: worry yet, right, It's just sort of the days going on.
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Speaker 4: It's just a little strange. Herman is increasingly anxious and
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Speaker 4: nervous about where Penny is. Doesn't know what to do.
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Speaker 4: This is an era before cell phones before being able
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Speaker 4: to reach people. So what do you do in that situation?
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Speaker 4: So Herman, when Wayne, his neighbor, gets home, takes Wayne's
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Speaker 4: kids back downstairs to him and says to Wayne, you know,
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Speaker 4: what do you think I should do? I'm worried.
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Speaker 6: Penny never came home. It's not like her.
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Speaker 4: She hasn't called. So Herman uses Wayne's phone on Thursday
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Speaker 4: night to call the Gurney Police Department to inquire what
14:52
Speaker 4: he should do and say, I'm worried, and he's told
14:55
Speaker 4: at that time it hasn't quite been twenty four hours.
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Speaker 4: Usually these situations resolve themselves, you know, give it till
15:00
Speaker 4: the morning and give us a call tomorrow if she
15:02
Speaker 4: still isn't home. This is a case where if this
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Speaker 4: murder didn't happen on Wednesday night, it's impossible for Herman
15:10
Speaker 4: to have committed it. You know, once we get a
15:13
Speaker 4: little further down the line in this case, the state
15:15
Speaker 4: realizes this is a problem for them and they have
15:17
Speaker 4: to isolate it on that Wednesday night because Herman is
15:19
Speaker 4: accounted for at every moment moving forward.
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Speaker 2: That's right. It's one of the most thorough alibis I
15:25
Speaker 2: have ever seen. Herman is there. He's at work, right,
15:27
Speaker 2: he's on the base. He's there with four kids in tow.
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Speaker 2: The neighbors see him. Everybody in this community sees you, Herman,
15:34
Speaker 2: right at this time that the coroner has already said,
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Speaker 2: this is happening to Penny. You're accounted for on Wednesday night,
15:40
Speaker 2: you're accounted for on Thursday. You're counted for on Friday,
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Speaker 2: and that's when you get this note, this notification that
15:49
Speaker 2: Penny's purse has been found. What goes through your head
15:56
Speaker 2: on that Friday morning. She's been missing since you came
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Speaker 2: home from work the pre day, and then you find
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Speaker 2: out that her purse has been found. What goes through
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Speaker 2: your head?
16:06
Speaker 3: To say I freaked out was putting it mildly because
16:12
Speaker 3: no Penny had stayed out, but she had never stayed
16:15
Speaker 3: out all night without calling. So I was already anxious
16:18
Speaker 3: from that because you know, that was kind of our written,
16:23
Speaker 3: unwritten agreement. So then I go to a Great Lakes
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Speaker 3: Police department and I get her purse. You know, I
16:29
Speaker 3: didn't know what to make of anything, so Gurnie asked
16:33
Speaker 3: me to come in, and at first everything seemed fine
16:38
Speaker 3: and nanty, but then all of a sudden it went
16:40
Speaker 3: from investigation to adversarial.
16:45
Speaker 2: So this is on Friday. Her purse has been found,
16:49
Speaker 2: but no one knows what's happened to her yet she's
16:51
Speaker 2: still missing. And so you go into the police departments
16:56
Speaker 2: and tell me about it turning adversarial. What happened to
17:00
Speaker 2: you in there?
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Speaker 3: Well, at first, you know, they were trying to get
17:04
Speaker 3: timelines and find out what was going on, and then
17:09
Speaker 3: all of a sudden it went straight to accusation. What'd
17:12
Speaker 3: you do with her? They start bringing in two or
17:16
Speaker 3: three officers at a time, and during the entire interrogation
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Speaker 3: they're video taping it, and they got a cassette player
17:25
Speaker 3: on the table and they're taking cassette recordings. Even though
17:29
Speaker 3: it turned adversero, I'm still doing my best to be
17:33
Speaker 3: as helpful as I know how to be. They started
17:36
Speaker 3: asking me questions and then turning those questions into me
17:40
Speaker 3: making these comments, which was, you know, completely off the wall.
17:45
Speaker 3: And then finally I had enough of it and I said,
17:50
Speaker 3: this isn't solving anything. We're not finding Penny, we're not
17:53
Speaker 3: knowing what's going on. I said, I'm going to go,
17:58
Speaker 3: and they told me I couldn't go.
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Speaker 2: So they've got you and the Gurney police departments, and
18:02
Speaker 2: they're asking you these questions. Right, you're saying, this is
18:05
Speaker 2: turning accusational really really fast. They take your car. You
18:09
Speaker 2: actually have to walk home from the police station that Friday.
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Speaker 2: What's going through your mind at this time? Still Penny's
18:16
Speaker 2: not been found. You've spent all day at the police station.
18:19
Speaker 2: They're acting like you're a suspect. You just want to
18:21
Speaker 2: find your ex wife.
18:23
Speaker 3: Right, I'm thinking it's time for them to get out
18:28
Speaker 3: there and start trying to, you know, shake the brushes
18:32
Speaker 3: and investigate. But instead they're just busy focusing on me.
18:38
Speaker 3: And I didn't understand why. You know, it's like the
18:43
Speaker 3: stuff on TV. It's a cash twenty two. If you
18:46
Speaker 3: try to help the cops, then you're trying to trick them.
18:51
Speaker 3: And if you don't help the cops, then you're being
18:53
Speaker 3: evasive and you must be guilty of something you can't
18:56
Speaker 3: win for losing.
19:12
Speaker 2: So this is going on Friday. You're being questioned, they
19:16
Speaker 2: get your car, they take your kids, Charlie and Crystal,
19:21
Speaker 2: they're in your apartment. This is going on Friday, Saturday,
19:26
Speaker 2: and then Sunday. Right that Sunday is when they find
19:30
Speaker 2: Penny in that pond. How'd you react knowing that this
19:36
Speaker 2: is what happened to the mother of your kids.
19:38
Speaker 3: I found out about it when a newspaper reporter called
19:42
Speaker 3: me to ask me about it. The police didn't even
19:46
Speaker 3: have the courtesy to tell me, and I didn't when
19:50
Speaker 3: they said found Penny. It didn't occur to me that
19:54
Speaker 3: she was killed, you know, and on my way if
19:59
Speaker 3: you found her, how come she hasn't you know, been
20:01
Speaker 3: in contact with me? And said, oh no, they found her.
20:04
Speaker 3: She was dead. And I hung up the phone and
20:09
Speaker 3: I went downstairs to the police that were parked out
20:13
Speaker 3: in the parking lot, and I was like, why didn't
20:15
Speaker 3: you tell me? They told me it was none of
20:18
Speaker 3: my business, and I snapped. And I'm an alcoholic and
20:26
Speaker 3: at that time I had about two years of sobriety
20:30
Speaker 3: and I fell off the wagon. I turned to the
20:34
Speaker 3: bottle because I didn't know what else to do, and
20:41
Speaker 3: that's when I ended up calling the Great Legs Hospital
20:45
Speaker 3: because I didn't know where else to turn. I tried
20:48
Speaker 3: to call a sponsor that I had, but he wasn't available,
20:52
Speaker 3: and I knew I was on a bad I was
20:56
Speaker 3: in a bad way. So I called the hospital and
21:00
Speaker 3: they put me in the hospital for a few days,
21:03
Speaker 3: basically to monitoring and keep me away from drinking, which
21:07
Speaker 3: I was thankful for that because it just it became
21:11
Speaker 3: too much.
21:13
Speaker 2: It's a lot, way too much to ask anyone to
21:17
Speaker 2: deal with. I mean, this is life falling apart over
21:21
Speaker 2: the course of a couple of days, right, and it
21:24
Speaker 2: unfortunately does not stop after those a few days. You
21:28
Speaker 2: are brought back in for another round of questioning. Four
21:31
Speaker 2: days after Penny was found dead.
21:35
Speaker 3: Every day I was in the hospital, they were coming
21:38
Speaker 3: and questioning me, and I kept telling them, you have
21:43
Speaker 3: you talked to Beauchet who was my attorney at the time,
21:46
Speaker 3: and I had him under a retainer. They were asking
21:50
Speaker 3: me questions and I kept telling them I'm not going
21:53
Speaker 3: to talk without a lawyer. And they did the same
21:56
Speaker 3: thing that they did at Guarannee. They kept bringing in
21:59
Speaker 3: two or three investigators wanting to me to answer questions,
22:04
Speaker 3: and I answered everything I want my attorney. And the
22:08
Speaker 3: thing is, the whole time I'm handcuffed to I it's
22:12
Speaker 3: bolted to the chair on a chair that's bolted to
22:14
Speaker 3: the ground. And that's why the whole story about Testman
22:20
Speaker 3: coming in and we drinking coffee and we being the
22:23
Speaker 3: best buddies is completely bs.
22:27
Speaker 2: All right, So let me take a step in here,
22:29
Speaker 2: because you just said a pretty important name. One of
22:32
Speaker 2: the interrogators who questioned you was a detective who at
22:37
Speaker 2: the time was the deputy commander of the Lake County
22:40
Speaker 2: Major Crimes Task Force, a detective named lou Tessaman. And unfortunately,
22:48
Speaker 2: that is a name that is really well known to
22:51
Speaker 2: those of us who've been doing wrongful conviction work in
22:55
Speaker 2: Lake County, Vanessa. Can you step in here and tell
22:57
Speaker 2: us a little bit about Detective Testament's history.
23:00
Speaker 5: Well, Detective Testament, he has publicly said that he was
23:06
Speaker 5: involved in obtaining confession statements in I believe, around eighty
23:12
Speaker 5: homicide cases throughout his career.
23:15
Speaker 6: It's a pretty significant number.
23:18
Speaker 5: And what's even more significant is that we know to
23:22
Speaker 5: a certainty that at least three of those individuals, if.
23:27
Speaker 6: Not more, were actually innocent.
23:29
Speaker 5: And so if there are three cases that we know
23:32
Speaker 5: about of the eighty cases that Testament is touting that
23:36
Speaker 5: he obtained confessions in homicide cases, how many other of
23:40
Speaker 5: those seventy seven people also are.
23:44
Speaker 6: Like Herman Williams and actually innocent.
23:47
Speaker 2: So you're in that interrogation room with Detective Testament, with
23:51
Speaker 2: other detectives from the Late County Major Crimes Task Force,
23:54
Speaker 2: and at the end of that interrogation they walk out
23:57
Speaker 2: of that room and turns out they start telling people
24:06
Speaker 2: that you had confessed to killing Penny Herman. Did you
24:10
Speaker 2: confess to killing your wife?
24:13
Speaker 3: No, Man never did, never even said anything in my opinion,
24:17
Speaker 3: that would make them think that.
24:19
Speaker 2: We're used to on this podcast, on the False Confessions
24:22
Speaker 2: podcast that I host, we're used to stories of people
24:25
Speaker 2: who are coerced into confessing to crimes that they didn't commit,
24:28
Speaker 2: who are pressured during interrogation into saying things that are
24:31
Speaker 2: just not true. But this is different, right, This is
24:35
Speaker 2: different because this is a fabricated confession. They're saying you confessed,
24:40
Speaker 2: but you never did so. At the heart of this case,
24:44
Speaker 2: from the very beginning, is a lie. And Vanessa, can
24:49
Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about the statements that
24:52
Speaker 2: the police and prosecutors were making in the press about
24:56
Speaker 2: whether Herman had confessed right after this interrogation.
25:00
Speaker 5: Just so astounding is that there was no video recording
25:06
Speaker 5: of this interrogation. There was no audio recording In fact,
25:10
Speaker 5: lou Testaman didn't even make any notes of what Herman
25:14
Speaker 5: purportedly said until two weeks later. There's a report that
25:19
Speaker 5: says that Herman purportedly confessed during this custodial interrogation. How
25:24
Speaker 5: do you write up a report two weeks later without
25:27
Speaker 5: having any contemporaneous notes or audio or visual recording of
25:34
Speaker 5: what happened. How do you remember what questions you asked Herman?
25:37
Speaker 5: How do you remember verbatim his answers. It's just impossible.
25:41
Speaker 6: But yet this is what Testaman put forward.
25:44
Speaker 2: I want to move ahead to the trial, right. The
25:46
Speaker 2: trial happens in nineteen ninety four, in February of nineteen
25:48
Speaker 2: ninety four. We've got lead prosecutor Mike Marmel, who you've
25:52
Speaker 2: talked about, and Herman. You're in a fight, fight for
25:55
Speaker 2: your life. If you're convicted, you get sentenced to life
25:58
Speaker 2: in prison, and that's what you're face. Tell us, please,
26:01
Speaker 2: Lauren and Vanessa, tell us a little bit about the
26:03
Speaker 2: evidence that the state brought forward against Herman, and maybe
26:08
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about how the investigation and
26:11
Speaker 2: its results were changed by the state to fit its
26:16
Speaker 2: theory of Herman's guilt.
26:18
Speaker 4: Sure, so, the state prosecuted Herman on this theory that
26:23
Speaker 4: he had a motive to kill Penny because he wanted
26:26
Speaker 4: to bring his children to San Diego with him, despite
26:29
Speaker 4: the fact, as he said, he was boarding a ship
26:31
Speaker 4: and that wasn't even possible. The state had to somehow
26:37
Speaker 4: fit this murder into Wednesday night, because if it didn't
26:40
Speaker 4: happen Wednesday night, Herman could not have committed the crime.
26:44
Speaker 4: So what they did was they used Herman's alleged confession,
26:49
Speaker 4: which was testimony put on by detective testament. They introduced
26:54
Speaker 4: some blood evidence where they did zerology so blood typing
26:59
Speaker 4: of some miniscule amounts of blood that they found, including
27:02
Speaker 4: on the inside of Herman's pickup truck. And they also
27:06
Speaker 4: introduced testimony from the medical examiner about a very precise
27:11
Speaker 4: time of death with a window of just about five
27:14
Speaker 4: hours on Wednesday night. That is they presented to the
27:18
Speaker 4: jury is when Penny, with you know reasonable degree of
27:21
Speaker 4: scientific and medical certainty that Penny died within this short
27:24
Speaker 4: window of time on Wednesday night when they were together.
27:28
Speaker 2: Now, hang on, Lauren, because I remember that in the
27:30
Speaker 2: coroner's inquest months before trial, they gave a range of
27:34
Speaker 2: dates from Wednesday night into Friday morning, and now they're
27:38
Speaker 2: changing that. They're saying that Penny had to have died
27:41
Speaker 2: on Wednesday night. What happened here?
27:44
Speaker 4: So initially, you know, there's a coroner's inquest that took
27:47
Speaker 4: place in November, and at that time in November, the
27:51
Speaker 4: deputy coroner testified at the inquest that the time of
27:54
Speaker 4: death was sometime between Wednesday night and Thursday.
27:58
Speaker 6: And you know, that was really.
27:59
Speaker 4: Significant because for herman's defense attorney, knowing what they knew then,
28:04
Speaker 4: which is that Charlie, their six year old son, had
28:07
Speaker 4: told the police that he saw his mother Thursday morning.
28:10
Speaker 4: He remembered her pouring cereal for him. Knowing that the
28:13
Speaker 4: downstairs neighbor initially told police that Penny came home Wednesday night,
28:17
Speaker 4: the defense theory was locked in on Penny having left
28:21
Speaker 4: Thursday morning and being murdered sometimes Thursday, based on everything
28:24
Speaker 4: they knew at the time. Right before the medical examiner,
28:29
Speaker 4: doctor Nancy Jones, testified before the jury, Mike murmel Is, prosecutor,
28:35
Speaker 4: tells the judge. Over the lunch hour, we showed doctor
28:39
Speaker 4: Jones the video of Penny's body being pulled from the water,
28:42
Speaker 4: and her testimony today, and he even kind of sarcastically
28:46
Speaker 4: puts a dig in at the defense lawyer and says,
28:48
Speaker 4: you know, as much as the defense wants this to
28:50
Speaker 4: have happened sometime Thursday, the doctor Jones is going to
28:53
Speaker 4: get up here and tell this jury the based on
28:55
Speaker 4: what she sees in this video and based on everything
28:57
Speaker 4: she saw at autopsy, Penny died between eight pm and
29:02
Speaker 4: midnight to one am at the latest on Wednesday night.
29:07
Speaker 2: Now, this is what they're throwing at you, Herman, and
29:09
Speaker 2: you're in a fight for your life, and you decide
29:13
Speaker 2: to testify in your own defense. Tell me what that
29:18
Speaker 2: was like to get up and tell the world right,
29:22
Speaker 2: I'm Herman Williams. I did not do this.
29:26
Speaker 3: I would have felt better if they had let me
29:29
Speaker 3: speak and say my piece, as opposed to answering yes
29:35
Speaker 3: or no questions. And most of the if you read
29:39
Speaker 3: the transcripts, most of the questions were loaded questions. But
29:43
Speaker 3: I'm being told that all I can do is answer
29:45
Speaker 3: yes or no. It overwhelmed me. But all I could
29:49
Speaker 3: do is get up there and tell the truth. Is
29:51
Speaker 3: I knew it?
29:52
Speaker 4: Can I jump in and say something, Laura? Of course,
29:55
Speaker 4: So the entire time that Herman is being interrogated by
29:59
Speaker 4: the police to the trial prior to his arrest. He's
30:02
Speaker 4: giving them as much information as he can, trying to
30:05
Speaker 4: be helpful to find Penny at first, and the police
30:08
Speaker 4: are running down certain leads, but they are literally only
30:12
Speaker 4: trying to build a case around Herman. There is no
30:15
Speaker 4: indication anywhere in the reports if the police ever followed
30:18
Speaker 4: up and tried to confirm his alibi. And even to
30:22
Speaker 4: another layer of injustice, there's Herman's attorney, who he thought
30:26
Speaker 4: this whole time was fighting for him, was doing absolutely
30:28
Speaker 4: nothing and made no attempt to shore up his alibi
30:31
Speaker 4: and get any of these surveillance videos or do anything.
30:34
Speaker 4: So Herman is like a sitting duck up there on
30:37
Speaker 4: that witness stand. He thinks that he's going to get
30:39
Speaker 4: up there and tell the jury what he's been telling
30:40
Speaker 4: all these other people. And he does that, and he
30:44
Speaker 4: thinks there's going to be evidence to back him up.
30:46
Speaker 4: And because the police is just disregard, if not willful,
30:50
Speaker 4: attempts to not have evidence to confirm what he told them,
30:55
Speaker 4: and his lawyer's absolute abject failure to corroborate anything Hermann says,
31:01
Speaker 4: you end up in a situation where Herman takes the
31:03
Speaker 4: witness stand, denies all the things that Testaman said. He said,
31:07
Speaker 4: tells the jury all these things and there's zero support
31:10
Speaker 4: for it, and the state's evidence is purposely chosen to
31:14
Speaker 4: contradict basically everything he says. So the jury walks away
31:19
Speaker 4: and you know, thinks he's lying, when if anybody, any
31:22
Speaker 4: of these people, at any time had done their jobs,
31:26
Speaker 4: his testimony would have been corroborated from the first word
31:29
Speaker 4: he said to the last word he said.
31:31
Speaker 2: Jury walks away and because of all those failures thinks
31:33
Speaker 2: he's lying and comes back with a guilty verdict. Herman,
31:41
Speaker 2: what was that like to hear that verdict pronounced?
31:45
Speaker 3: I basically spent two days in shock, you know, I mean,
31:50
Speaker 3: I grew up I believed in the law, in the
31:52
Speaker 3: justice system. I was raised to be a law and
31:55
Speaker 3: order guy. I knew police officers and I knew sheriffs
32:01
Speaker 3: my whole life. I've been around them. To think that
32:04
Speaker 3: what my belief was a complete and total failure because
32:09
Speaker 3: of the corrupt and injustice of the system. And I
32:14
Speaker 3: still to this day couldn't believe twelve people could find
32:18
Speaker 3: me guilty of anything least of all killing Penny Herman.
32:38
Speaker 2: You are convicted and you are sentenced to life in
32:42
Speaker 2: prison without the possibility of parole. Can you tell us
32:46
Speaker 2: a little bit about your time in prison?
32:49
Speaker 3: How did you.
32:50
Speaker 2: Pass the time, what did you do to keep busy,
32:54
Speaker 2: and how did you maintain hope.
32:56
Speaker 3: Tried to become a lawyer. If I was going to
32:59
Speaker 3: approve my innocence, I would have to learn the law,
33:03
Speaker 3: and part of it was helping other people with their
33:07
Speaker 3: legal cases, which kind of cemented the fact that the
33:11
Speaker 3: justice system is broken, broken beyond prepare. I'm not going
33:17
Speaker 3: to sit there and say everybody in prison is innocent,
33:21
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of people that are doing time
33:24
Speaker 3: that might have done something to get locked up, but
33:27
Speaker 3: they definitely didn't do what they're doing time for. And
33:32
Speaker 3: that kind of helped me keep it together and kept
33:36
Speaker 3: working on my cage, and I kept hitting the wall
33:39
Speaker 3: and hitting the wall, and somebody turned me on to
33:43
Speaker 3: the Illinois Innocent Project. I wrote them and filled out
33:47
Speaker 3: the application and everything. They jumped on board and they
33:53
Speaker 3: just did so much for me. Oh my life. You know,
34:03
Speaker 3: it's been a it's been a trial, has been a struggle,
34:07
Speaker 3: and uh, Lauren and Vanessa gave me open a love
34:14
Speaker 3: for Sorry. I don't mean to be a blubbering idiot.
34:19
Speaker 2: You're not. You're being one of the most powerful advocates
34:21
Speaker 2: I have ever heard for fixing the system that's so broken.
34:27
Speaker 3: Well it's broken, you know. Sometimes when it's that broken,
34:33
Speaker 3: you just need to stop and start all over. But
34:36
Speaker 3: they're not going to do that. There's too many Blue
34:40
Speaker 3: Testman and Mike Murmills in the world.
34:43
Speaker 2: So you take the case, Lauren, you with the Illinois
34:46
Speaker 2: Inoson's project around the case, and Vanessa, you and the
34:49
Speaker 2: Innocence Project come on board a few years later, tell
34:52
Speaker 2: me what you did to dismantle the case against Herman Williams.
34:57
Speaker 4: So we started. The first step was trying to get
35:00
Speaker 4: DNA testing. You know, we knew that we wanted to
35:04
Speaker 4: test the evidence that was used against him at trial.
35:07
Speaker 4: And incredibly significantly, there was DNA that was able to
35:12
Speaker 4: be tested from skin material under Penny's fingernails, and there
35:16
Speaker 4: was male DNA recovered from under her nails and it's
35:19
Speaker 4: not Herman's DNA. Vanessa, do you want to weigh in
35:22
Speaker 4: on the pathology review that was done?
35:25
Speaker 5: So part of what was done post conviction was, you know,
35:28
Speaker 5: going back with this pathology and having it reviewed. It
35:32
Speaker 5: was reviewed by an independent medical examiner, James Filkins, and
35:38
Speaker 5: doctor Filkins looked at the evidence and based on established
35:42
Speaker 5: principles of forensic pathology, concluded that Penny William's time of
35:47
Speaker 5: death was much closer in time to when her body
35:50
Speaker 5: was found, which excluded Herman as the assailant. You know,
35:55
Speaker 5: you really could teach a class on wrongful convictions looking
35:59
Speaker 5: at Herman's case because it has basically every component of
36:05
Speaker 5: wrongful conviction cases. Tunnel vision where police just zeroed it
36:10
Speaker 5: in on him from the beginning and failed to investigate
36:14
Speaker 5: other leads that came in that you know, pointed to
36:17
Speaker 5: other suspects in the case, and proscatorial misconduct when it
36:22
Speaker 5: comes to the time of death testimony because the medical
36:25
Speaker 5: examiner had given a larger window, but that opinion was
36:31
Speaker 5: not turned over to.
36:32
Speaker 6: The defense as is required by.
36:35
Speaker 5: The case of Brady versus Maryland and the US Constitution.
36:39
Speaker 5: And then of course there's the information that came you
36:43
Speaker 5: know that we now know about low testament that wasn't
36:46
Speaker 5: known in the nineties, and so the existence of these
36:51
Speaker 5: other wrongful conviction cases the existence the knowledge that testsment,
36:55
Speaker 5: fabricated evidence, and fabricated confessions in of itself is a
37:01
Speaker 5: grounds for overturning the conviction.
37:04
Speaker 2: It's so wrong. And just hearing you both recount what
37:08
Speaker 2: you have done in this case and all of the
37:10
Speaker 2: stones you unturned and all of the just flat out
37:13
Speaker 2: lies that you have caught folks in is frankly inspiring
37:17
Speaker 2: to hear. And you know, Herman, as you are watching
37:21
Speaker 2: Lauren and Vanessa work and as you're learning that they're
37:24
Speaker 2: finding all of this out, at some point, I'm guessing
37:28
Speaker 2: you must have felt like you had reached a tipping point,
37:31
Speaker 2: like all of a sudden, maybe there was going to
37:33
Speaker 2: be a light at the end of this tunnel. When
37:36
Speaker 2: did you have this moment of thinking, you know what,
37:39
Speaker 2: this might work. They might prove me innocent. I might
37:41
Speaker 2: get to go home.
37:43
Speaker 3: Well, I think the big one was when the DNA
37:46
Speaker 3: testing was done, because that was that put the car
37:52
Speaker 3: in the driver's seat, that put it on the highway.
37:55
Speaker 3: And I also want to give a shout out to
37:57
Speaker 3: Lindbek exactly. I know she worked direly on my case too,
38:05
Speaker 3: but you know, it seemed like with the COVID and
38:11
Speaker 3: everything else. There was a light at the end of
38:14
Speaker 3: the tunnel, but somebody kept moving the light. But then finally,
38:20
Speaker 3: you know, this spring rolled around and I remember Lauren
38:27
Speaker 3: and Lynn coming to see me and give me a
38:31
Speaker 3: news and even though it took four months from the news, yeah,
38:39
Speaker 3: that was That was the chipping point when they told
38:45
Speaker 3: me that. That's when I actually began to believe that
38:48
Speaker 3: I was gonna be getting out. I didn't know when,
38:53
Speaker 3: but I knew I was going to happen.
38:55
Speaker 2: And I've seen the pictures Herman. On September sixth, you
39:02
Speaker 2: walked out of prison into a beautiful fall day, blue sky,
39:07
Speaker 2: white clouds, with your lawyers at your side, and you
39:12
Speaker 2: were free. Take us to that moment. What was it like?
39:16
Speaker 3: Words can't describe it. I was still paranoid that they
39:21
Speaker 3: were gonna come snag me up and say, oh, this
39:24
Speaker 3: is just some big joke, get back in prison. It
39:27
Speaker 3: didn't really start sinking until we got to the park
39:30
Speaker 3: and I've seen all them people come about to support me.
39:36
Speaker 3: We're there for me, having Lauren and Vanessa there, my
39:42
Speaker 3: dream teme. I said, I ain't got no words to
39:47
Speaker 3: describe it. Yes, like I told Lauren and Vanessa, anything
39:53
Speaker 3: and everything they need me to do. I'll do my best.
39:56
Speaker 3: That God I hold them, that.
40:01
Speaker 5: I do.
40:02
Speaker 3: Everybody that's similarly situated like me, Wrong is wrong and
40:08
Speaker 3: until right is right, we got to keep up the fight.
40:14
Speaker 2: Vanessa and Lauren. Where do we start? What needs to
40:17
Speaker 2: be fixed? What's first on the list?
40:19
Speaker 5: One thing that I thought was so remarkable about Herman's
40:23
Speaker 5: exoneration was the willingness of the current States Attorney to
40:29
Speaker 5: acknowledge the range of misconduct that led to his wrongful conviction.
40:36
Speaker 5: And you know, if we don't acknowledge the range of
40:38
Speaker 5: misconduct that leads to wrongful convictions, and we want to
40:41
Speaker 5: gloss it over to just we have new DNA technology
40:45
Speaker 5: or you know, this shows the systems working.
40:47
Speaker 6: No, Herman's case shows the systems not working.
40:51
Speaker 5: And I think that the degree of honesty about what
40:55
Speaker 5: led to his wrongful conviction is what we need if
40:58
Speaker 5: we're ever to really address, you know, the problems in
41:01
Speaker 5: the system.
41:02
Speaker 2: And speaking of honesty, Lauren, I want to ask you,
41:04
Speaker 2: in particular, right what happened to Detective Testament, the one
41:08
Speaker 2: who said that Hermann confessed but since then has been
41:11
Speaker 2: linked to countless wrongful conviction cases.
41:15
Speaker 4: So lu Testaman stayed on as the deputy commander of
41:20
Speaker 4: the Lake High Major Crimes Task Force until I believe
41:22
Speaker 4: two thousand and five, and went on to and continues
41:26
Speaker 4: to do some trainings around the state of Illinois related
41:30
Speaker 4: to interrogation techniques. The fact that he would be seen
41:35
Speaker 4: as an expert and a source for law enforcement to
41:39
Speaker 4: learn from I find astonishing. I find it appalling when
41:44
Speaker 4: you have the track record that he has. I just
41:47
Speaker 4: can't imagine that he would be out doing any form
41:50
Speaker 4: of training. But to this day, he's out declaring that
41:55
Speaker 4: his ways are the right ways, despite the trail of
41:58
Speaker 4: horrors that have followed him in his career. There's no accountability,
42:02
Speaker 4: there's no consequences for people who have those positions of
42:06
Speaker 4: authority and destroy people's lives.
42:09
Speaker 2: Okay, well, we've reached the end of a really disturbing
42:13
Speaker 2: and important and fundamentally motivating, an energizing story. Hearing from
42:19
Speaker 2: Lauren and Vanessa and how they fought for Herman. And
42:23
Speaker 2: you know, I'm the lucky one to be able to
42:24
Speaker 2: hear this story and bring it to our listeners, the
42:26
Speaker 2: lucky one to be able to sit in Jason Flam's
42:29
Speaker 2: seat to host the Wrongful Conviction podcast and to bring
42:31
Speaker 2: out Herman's story. And so, just like Jason does at
42:34
Speaker 2: the end of this episode, I'm going to turn off
42:37
Speaker 2: my microphone and I'm going to let you Herman, take
42:42
Speaker 2: over and deliver what Jason likes to call closing arguments.
42:48
Speaker 2: You can say whatever you want, whatever comes to your mind,
42:51
Speaker 2: about your case, about your life, about anything else. But
42:54
Speaker 2: we're going to turn it over now to you and
42:56
Speaker 2: give you the last word.
42:57
Speaker 3: Herman, Williams, what happened to me, He's happened to a
43:01
Speaker 3: lot of people. It's time to put a stop to it.
43:07
Speaker 3: William Blackstone made a comment that always stuck near and
43:11
Speaker 3: dear to my heart, which he's basically said, it's better
43:15
Speaker 3: to let ten guilty men go for and the lock
43:18
Speaker 3: up one innocent man. But somewhere in life it seemed
43:23
Speaker 3: like it got turned around and justice system would rather
43:28
Speaker 3: see ten innocent people locked up than let one guilty
43:31
Speaker 3: man go free. And that's a pitiful shame. It's time
43:36
Speaker 3: to put a stop to it. I don't know how,
43:39
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure anybody does other than start making
43:44
Speaker 3: it right.
43:50
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,
43:53
Speaker 2: Laura and I Writer. I'd like to thank our executive
43:56
Speaker 2: producers Jason Flumm and Kevin Wortis. The senior producer for
44:00
Speaker 2: this episode is Jackie Polly, and our producers are Lila
44:03
Speaker 2: Robinson and Jeff Cleiburn. Our editor is Lexandra Whedy. The
44:09
Speaker 2: music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated
44:12
Speaker 2: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram
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44:22
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44:26
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44:29
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Speaker 2: Signal Company Number One.
44:46
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction,
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Speaker 1: Laura and I Writer will return with another outrageous false
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Speaker 1: confession story. She'll talk to DeVante Sandford, who was just
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Speaker 1: fourteen years old when he was arrested for a quadruple homicide.
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Speaker 1: He had nothing to do do with and there's a
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Speaker 1: shocking twist that you will not want to miss, so
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Speaker 1: listen next Monday in The Wrongful Conviction podcast feed