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Trinidad Carnival 2026 - For The Love of Mas · Freshwater Yankee

0:00
SPEAKER_00: In the early nineteen eighties, a young boy, no older than six or seven, stood on the corner of Tragre Road and St.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: Vincent Street, only a few steps from his front door, watching mass during Trinidad Carnival.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: The sun was hot.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: The air was filled with a cacophony of music, along with people singing and shouting over the noise to try to talk to each other.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: The air smelled sweet with the scent of oranges peeled on a spiral device by a nearby vendor.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: The boy, shorter than everyone around him, looked up at the masqueraders as they chipped by, arms in the air, swaying to the music.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly, as if casting an all-encompassing cinematic shadow over him, a giant mechanical crab filled his field of vision.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: It was as beautiful as it was grotesque.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: The bipedal support of the masquerader leading up into multiple large mechanical arms with claws or gundies turned upward.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Its face, planted squarely among the ornate metal accoutrement, looked like an even darker version of the mask worn by Lord Humongous in the Mad Max film The Road Warrior.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Four long poles extended high into the air from its metallic carapace, each anchoring the corner of a billowing white sheet stained with blood-colored dye.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: The boy had seen this same creature on TV a couple nights before.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: He'd watched in horror and gleeful fascination as Man Crab, the king costume for Peter Menschell's carnival presentation for that year, glided over the main stage as that same blood flowed onto the sheet, destroying its own purity on live television while a stunned nation watched on.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: The boy didn't understand any of it.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: He didn't understand the symbolism of Mankrab.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: The fact that he embodied the corruption of man through consumerism and technology.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Or the fact that he stood diametrically opposed to the purity of self and the collective of our nation.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: The boy had no idea that Mankrab was a character in a story that unfolded over three years and changed Carnival in Trinidad forever.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: All he knew was that what he was looking at was amazing.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: And now, looking up at it in person, in all its macabre yet elegant majesty, the boy was mesmerized and terrified.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: That, as the kids say, was a core memory for me.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that over the years I've added in the kinds of flourishes our minds layer into these kinds of memories that stay with us for our entire lives.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: But the simple truth of it is that I saw man crab in the proverbial flesh and it left an indelible mark on me as a creative.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: Almost five decades later, after spending my entire adult life abroad, I began this journey of discovery and rediscovery that led me back to Spectator Mass, which is short for masquerading and the concept of telling stories through carnival bands.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: I revisited the themes and concepts that Minchel put on display during The Trilogy, a multi-year saga that dealt with a major inflection point for our country, both economically and culturally.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: And he and his collaborators used their band to take Calypso's tradition of social commentary and extrapolate that into a dark, brooding meditation on themes such as greed, avarice, materialism, and even the ever-present threat of nuclear extinction and presented it with a delectable crust of bright colours and flowing form.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: He understood that Carnival in many ways was and still is a living, breathing canvas.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: He told stories using the movement of the masqueraders themselves.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Each of them were on their own individual carnival journeys, but collectively they made up the personification of performance art on a grand scale.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: An approach that he eventually took to the global stage as the artistic director for the opening ceremonies of three Olympic Games.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Barcelona in 1992, Atlanta in 1996, and Salt Lake City in 2002.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: The trilogy sparked national conversation.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Many embraced it.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: Others were opposed to him using Mass in such a deliberate and pointed way.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: But everyone talked about it.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: And he, along with other band leaders such as Edwin Adlhart, Wayne Barkley, and Raoul Garin, reshaped the portrayal of Mass on a grand stage in the 80s and 90s.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: Themes and characters such as Rat Race, Saga Boy and Tantan, Kallaloo Dancing Tic Tac Toe, Islands in the Sun, The Sting, and The Midnight Robber all entered or re-entered Trinidad's collective consciousness.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: Names like Carol Aque, Alison Brown, and the eponymous Peter Samuel became part of our Zeitgeist, with their echoes and even direct involvement still being felt today.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: These men and women pushed Carnival into a new space, one that has evolved over the subsequent decades into the ongoing global force that it is today in terms of pageantry and spectacle.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: But with evolution comes change, and now, decades later, spectator mass has once again retreated into the smaller corners of the greatest show.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: But it's still alive, and many of these legends are still involved today.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: As for me, my reintroduction to this world started with a simple WhatsApp message to Kevin Crosby, who's part of the leadership team of Kinetic Mass.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: I'd planned a trip back home that happened to coincide with Carnival, and long story short, I ended up playing Mass on Monday and Tuesday, which I recounted in my last episode.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: This episode is a companion piece to that one where I took the opportunity to sit down with Kevin after all of the dust settled on Carnival 2026 to talk about the current state of Mass and Spectator Mass and what it takes to put together an annual Carnival Band presentation and the sheer scope of the collective effort across our nation that goes into making Carnival happen.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Kevin and I became best friends in high school, and it was an unexpected treat to sit with him to talk shop, compare our approaches to working in a creative space, and discuss why our culture and the work that we do to help move it forward is vitally important to us.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: As always, my name is Wendell O'Reilly, and I am doing a special follow-up episode to the one that we published uh at the end of February 2026.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: That was the uh 2026 Carnival Potential to Kinetic Energy.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually quite proud of that name.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: And so today, as a follow-up, I have a really special guest on with us, uh Kevin Crosby, who's uh you know my best friend from growing up here in Trinidad and Tobago.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we actually went to the same college in Baltimore, Maryland, went to Morgan State University together.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you were ahead of me, I think, by two years or something like that, or one year.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: By one year.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: And then you decided to come back to Trinidad.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: You left me up there in the States.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: But you have always been uh involved in Carnival and the sort of the music industry in Trinidad and Tibetan.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about who you are and and um sort of your journey in in the music world in Trinidad.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, as Wendell said, my name is Kevin.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: I am part of a music family.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: I won't say that I am part of the music industry.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: So my my my father, my late father, was uh executive producer in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s for a lot of Calypso and soccer artists.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I would have grown up in and around the industry in that in that capacity, um, in the recording studios, out on the road doing distributions and so forth.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: And then a couple of the promotional events that um we would have had or the family would have had within the carnival season to promote the musical products for the specific yeah.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: And and of course, you are very modest, um, you know, immediately kind of dumb playing your role.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: But you have been really involved in the Crosby family business since you were young.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, some of my earliest memories of carnival is like being on the music trucks, um, going over to Maracas on Ash Wednesday for um uh the last slap kind of scenes or the warm, I forget what they used to call it.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the cooldown.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: The cooldown, the cooldown.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: But um, but no, you you every time I mentioned like a soccer artist growing up, you'd be like, oh yeah, that's my uncle or that's my aunt.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: And you have really kind of taken on one part of your dad's legacy with kinetic mass, right?
10:18
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to misstate anything.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about kinetic mass and your involvement in it.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: So, kinetic is a project that uh we've been in existence since 2019.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: It's actually an amalgamation of two or three band leaders.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: So you're right, my late father and his partner at the time, and we placed it, would have had a band, just we and friends.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: We're now in partnership with Peter Samuel, known as the Canva King at Trendad and Tabebo.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: He has had a couple of bands.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: We had late Jerry Weeks, who's also been a band leader.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: We have a couple of other stakeholders within the band.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: So JC DeFratus, Richard Commission, Ronald Guy James.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: Now Ronald Guy James is responsible for production and so forth of the band, but he is he, along with Peter Menschell and Jerry Weeks, would have had a history going all the way back to uh Minchel's production company.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: So in 2019, we all came together and we decided to form this entity to bring my costuming into Trinidad Island to be a little carnival.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: We launched in 2019.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Our first presentation was in 2020.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: We won Band of the Year with a production called Mass Beatre, which was designed by Peter Minchel at it at that point in time.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: We've gone on to win a medium band of the year in Port of Spain.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: We've played second a couple of times.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: So we're bouncing around between first and second.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: But all in all, we've been a successful creative entity in the the traditional mass and costuming space.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: And so just like some of the names you mentioned there, like true luminaries and carnival.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Like you've if you know Carnival and True Natavico, you know, you hear the name Peter Menschell.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even when I was a kid, I remember seeing some of the uh the costumes that you put together.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: Like Man Crab was one of the like core memories that I have of watching Ma standing up on Tracker Road, watching the band go by and seeing the Man Crab costume pass by, and and that was really, really special for me.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: So just the idea of you working with these guys and talking about it in such a glassy way, should give the audience sort of an idea of um where you are in terms of um your role in in Carnival, but also give some some context for our listeners.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: Carnival has been evolving over the years, right?
12:54
SPEAKER_00: And Carnival started off as you know, we we had very specific uh costume types like Sailor Mask and things like that.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: But and then it it sort of evolved into these presentations, these very artful presentations with guys like Peter Minchell doing it on a large scale, these big bands.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: And and of course, that went on, like Peter Minchel went on to have like international prominence doing work for was it the Olympics, I believe.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: He did one of the Olympic opening ceremonies.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: And so while that is a a core part of carnival history, we have also had this evolution away from that, where we have larger bands now that emphasize more um what we call beads and bikinis.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's a good way to categorize it.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: Whereas, you know, it's it's all it's a lot less about the artistry and the pageantry and more about just the the act of playing.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um locally we call it bikini and beads.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Um we at Kinetic like to call to differentiate between participative mass and spectator mass.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: So we are on the side of spectator mass where our masqueraders don't costumes and so forth that portray a theme that stands out.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Not to say that those on the other side in terms of participative mass don't do the same, but they do it uh more with the masqueraders and and masqueraders' satisfaction and their experience in mind.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: So so it so for them is more about the the act of playing and less about what you are actually showing as a portrait, right?
14:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: Poetry, yes.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: So that is a very important distinction because there's sort of a a schism between the two.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I try to think positively, and I think there's a place for for both kinds of masks in Trinidad and Tobago, but I think unfortunately, some of the older types of masks um and and those big costumes and um you know costumes that are designed for movement as well as form, those things are less and less prominent in Carnival today, right?
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: So it is an art form that is on the decline.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: Funny that you mentioned movement and so forth.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: When we were coming up with the name Kinetic, it was really and truly chosen to to to actually display the type of or to depict what we what we try to produce.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And more persons now gravitate towards the bikinian beats in this cycle.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: So you know everything is cyclical.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: So hopefully um we we go through the cycle again and you see more spectator mass becoming prominent.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: So why why is it important for you personally to help continue uh having spectator mass be uh a sort of a an a stalwart of Trinidad and Tobago Carnival?
16:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh there are a lot of there are a lot of reasons.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Firstly, enough um honoring my fat my late father's memory by by carrying on his legacy.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm also going back to a child standing, um, standing on the corner of the Queen's Park Savannah and watching presentations like Rat Race and so forth.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Those things are those things are ingrained in my mind and um motivated to keep that alive.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Um just putting myself in the in the shoes of young, impressionable child, eight years old, nine years old, um, that will always be a motivator for me.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a big deal.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, seeing those huge, not just the huge costumes, but also like the actual sections of those old bands, they really do have an important role in in how we view the world as Trinidadians creatively, but also how we express ourselves and how we present to the world, right?
17:07
SPEAKER_00: And so I know a lot of people come to Trinidad for bikini and beats and stuff like that, but but spectator mass really was a core part of Carnival for us, you know.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: And it that it there was spec, like it it it was spectacular and it was spectacle.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that is something that the fact that you feel committed to keeping that alive is is a really special thing.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: And even for me as a masquerader, right?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: So I played in the big bands Poison and Tribe and all of that.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: This was really my first time outside of like when I played Kiddy's carnival as a child.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: This was really the first time where I played that spectator mass where I had the and I remember like my parents, like my mom playing spectator mass with big costumes and stuff like that.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: But this was a a whole thing, like I had you know, pants and a chest piece and all that, and a headpiece, but then I also had um the wings, uh yeah, so there's a backpack essentially.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had to essentially lock that around for two days, but this there's kind of a magical thing where you don't feel the weight after a while because you feel so amazing wearing this costume and and seeing people looking and taking pictures with their phones and videos when we go by, and knowing that this is sort of like not as common as it used to be.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: So when you pass by in these kinds of costumes, like people really pay attention and they they sort of look at like what is the story you all are trying to tell.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: So, so what is your role in kinetics?
18:49
SPEAKER_01: So I am on the the management team of kinetic mass.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, my role specifically, I would like to think it's more the logistical side and on the business side.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: Um with with all carnival companies, there's a creative side and a business side.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: Sure, yeah.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you ask me, I stay out of the lane of the creatives and I I see about the business and the logistics side.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: That's what I think I I I would like to do.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Of course, you've seen me in action and I tend to dabbling everything.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but um, yeah, so my role primarily is supposed to be along the lines of management with respect to sourcing of materials when necessary.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: Especially materials that we source from abroad, be it the North American market, or we go as far as China to source some some of the raw materials.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: So it's doing that more or less, and then looking, looking after the the business side of things.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: So come the end of the season, we're in the black and supposed to be in the red.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: And then of course, on you know, and I will I will go ahead and and talk about like my just kind of watching you as you mentioned on kind of on Monday and Tuesday, you were basically involved in every aspect and just kind of monitoring and making sure that everything was going well, but also making key decisions on the fly, because you know, this is this is a very organic thing.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: You have a an entity with about 300 people, and you add the masqueraders and the the people who support the band and stuff like that.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: And you kind of have you're one of the people who make decisions like key decisions about how things go on Monday and Tuesday, right?
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: So the management team collectively, we we're always on parade days scanning the scene and making decisions.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot going on that mass creaders may not know that is going on.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: Coordination of meals coming to the band and so forth, and the barn, so security issues, all of these things happen in the background, hopefully seamlessly.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: And and even like what route you're going to take, because you know, you don't always know what's gonna happen along the route.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: You might run into uh another ban or a roadblock or something like that, and you have to make decisions on the fly.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so we have uh we have a team separate and apart from myself.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: That's their responsibility.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: They coordinate um with the National Carnival Commission and and check congestion on the route and so forth before making that decision.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, yes, we make calls off the top of our heads, and on one or two occasions, I have been um I've had to do that.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: But um, generally there's an entity within the band that does that.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so just to sort of paint the picture of what what we're talking about.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: So, over two days, kind of on Monday and Tuesday, you have many, many different bands of different sizes.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: So at any one point in the day, you have tens of thousands of masqueraders.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: On the road in the capital of Trinidad, Tobago, all moving either in the same direction or sort of cross-cutting and stuff like that.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: And so really it is like this big long parade made up of small and disparate parts.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: And you have talked about how one of the conversations we had was how um Carnival is a logistical miracle, right?
22:27
SPEAKER_00: It it really shows not only the the artistry of us as a people, but also our ability to coordinate something on such a massive scale.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean tens of thousands of people over two days.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: And there's there's coordination across the board to make this work.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, um, Carnival, from my perspective, um, through the lens of project managers and so forth, is a is a mega project that you have multiple entities pulling this off within a definitive time frame.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's nothing like uh we miss Carnival Monday and Tuesday, so we'll come on the road Ash Wednesday.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: Because everything literally everything ends at on Carnival Tuesday at Ash Wednesday, you know, other than a few like last live parties or cooldowns or whatever.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: Life returns to normal.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: Life goes back to normal.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and because Trinidad effectively shuts down on Monday and Tuesday.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: So, so you know, I mean, I know you you don't want to give yourself credit, but it's sort of the same thing I do when I'm producing.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, I my philosophy as a producer is to give creatives the opportunity to do what they do best and remove obstacles from their past.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: At at any given point.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And if I do that, that's that's a good day.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: I go home and I sleep well.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: But it also means that you have to help manage creatives as well, because creatives need a lot of uh support in different ways, you know, it it is a massive role.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, because again, having stuff that looks great is one thing, but if if there was not that logistical machine behind it, then it would just be chaos and kind of runs smoothly.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even though you have like complaints and stuff like that along the way, things that don't go as well, but but it is uh it is a very and we've been doing it for for decades and decades in this country.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: So so so that's the goal to to to deliver um uh customer experience to masqueraders that seems seamless.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: I think as you rightly said, we've we've been doing it for quite a while, and we've evolved uh and polished the product across the board.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: There aren't many bands that you you go to that you will walk away disgusted.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: You should get what you what you pay for from the majority of bands in terms of the costume that you paid for, yeah, the the experience on the road with respect to refreshments and entertainment.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: Um there are add-ons like the goodie bags and so forth that some some entities now have introduced into their carnival product.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, but at a base level, each masquerader is paying for a costume and road experience in terms of Monday and Tuesday.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: So seamless road experience in terms of refreshments, um, utilities such as washrooms and so forth, security.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: So we tend to provide that for all our masqueraders.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: So when you speak about management of creatives and so forth, that in a big part um redounds to the team that surrounds the creation.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: And um we tend to have a team of of creatives that have been working together.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, in our case, it's it's about six years officially in this format, but the the circle is small.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: So everybody we like to say we have about 200 years experience in mass production.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: When you put together everyone's experience, everyone knows everyone and so forth.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: So so this team that we have producing mass on behalf of Kinetic now, um, they're quite comfortable, they've known each other, they're working with each other for years.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: So um separate and apart from minor, minor issues that come up day-to-day, yeah, day-to-day life as humans, um, it runs pretty smoothly.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, you may have creative differences and so forth, but we are professional enough to put aside um to identify what is best for the masquerade and put aside feelings and human emotions and so forth.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: And that requires trust, right?
26:45
SPEAKER_00: You have to trust that everybody is looking in the same direction.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: And I will say, I mean, the fact that kinetic in its existence is always first or second proves that um you all are doing something right, and and the product that you put out, uh, for me personally as a masquerader, but also somebody stepping back and looking at how gorgeous the presentation was this year.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: And I know what the presentations looked like in prior years as well.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, I think that's a testament, like you said, to the strength of your team.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: So I want to just take a quick step back.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: So again, from the perspective of the masquerader, the way, so if you were say somebody in in the US and you wanted to play master, you go to the website, right?
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh you would you would pick your your section, order your costume, that kind of thing.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And then on the day you talked about having the amenities available um on the road with you at all times.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: So at any point over the course of two days, you have access, or we as masqueraders, we have access to bathrooms, we have access to drinks and snacks.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, on Tuesday, we have food.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, we also there are also maxi taxis or or passenger vans with air conditioned.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: So if you get too hot, you could go sit down.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Um and then security as well as medical, uh, medical team within the band.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And then you have concierges throughout the band as well.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: And then and then we could never forget the music tracks and you have DJs and you have um hype men and all that.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: So how many people would you say your entire team consists of when you add in all of the folks who come in and like even just work on on Monday and Tuesday?
28:33
SPEAKER_01: The contingent is in the vicinity of 75% to support staff.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: And that's as you say, security, musicians, DJs, truck drivers, uh medics, the the whole shit about 75%.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because really the goal is to have no masquerader having a bad experience, right?
28:58
SPEAKER_00: You like one person maybe falling out of the band somehow with illness or something like that.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: That's that's one too many, right?
29:05
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, correct.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: And so you're always um like vigilant.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: And the the thing about it is I again I I go back to like my producing.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: When I I say producing is like uh watching special effects in a movie.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: If you at any point realize that you are watching a visual effect, you're sort of taken out of it.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: So the best VFX are the ones that you don't see and you don't think about.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: And I imagine that's kind of the same thing for you, right?
29:35
SPEAKER_01: Correct, correct.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, we so we try to which, as we say, our goal is to leave the starting point with everyone and bring everyone back to the to the to the starting point at the end of carnival choose the safe and intact.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, listen, I for one appreciate that because it is a it is quite a journey, both um you know, spiritually but physically as well.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Um uh I want to also talk about the the annual cycle of this because obviously this is something that requires a lot of planning.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: So, can you talk a little bit about like when you start planning for Carnival, the next carnival?
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is a loaded question.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: I know the answer.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so Carnival, Carnival's um, next carnival's planning started probably about four months ago.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: So in each carnival season, um there is a design cycle where the designer will pick the theme and um he will present costumes that depict the theme, presents it to the management team, and he either gets a green lighter or he goes back to to do some rework.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Um after that, the the process moves to the production, to the prototyping stage, where the designer's um costume depictions move from a two-dimensional design on paper, and it is produced as a three-dimensional prototype by our head of production.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: So in that phase, you're choosing materials and so forth, and thinking what is the most economical way to produce this band given the effect that the design is trying to achieve on the road carving, Monday and Tuesday.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: So that's where the compromise and so forth comes in between the design team and the production team.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, after that, we go into the sales period where we present everything to the masqueraders and have them sign up.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: And then So that's the launch.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: That's the band launch, which normally occurs July, August, thereabouts.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: So you so the design and prototyping phase sort of runs, you know, maybe before the the current carnival and then into like Yeah, realistically we take about a month off to try and uh re-energize between carnival seasons.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and also reassess from what you did last year, right?
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Correct, correct.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: So so so realistically, it would start in March, mid-March.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: And then we go all the way to June, July before we launch the next year's theme to the general public.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: And that's as you say, via ban launch.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: We'll present everything.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah um after that phase is where masqueraders are welcome to sign up and so forth.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: So websites, the banner, the ban room and so forth is open to take subscriptions.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: And then we move into production phases, and that's where the gamble comes in.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: So not all every time we can wait, or we can hold back the production cycle and wait for masqueraders to know what their site is and so forth.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: The science comes in there, where we say, all right, there's the demographic that we've been working with.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: There's a this day the um better curve and normal distribution and so forth.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: And we we produce costumes like that.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: So you all use analytics for this process essentially.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah, that's when that's my um bread and butter outside of carnival season.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: So I try to apply it based on what we've had over the years.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: And even though I have the science behind it, the rest of the production team, they may not refer to it as a normal distribution as if they very well know.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: They they there's some of uh an innate knowledge base, yeah.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: Correct, yeah, correct.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: So that's the production cycle.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Along with the production cycle, is where you have the business side of the band reaching out to sponsors and so forth, trying to lock negotiate on lockdown agreements for the next season.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: And then by the time we turn around to Christmas and so forth, we're getting prepared for distribution mode and that we are winding up the production phase, packaging costumes and so forth, and then uh looking to the road experience in terms of getting service providers on the same page and so forth.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, so before we talk about the road experience, I want to talk about the production phase because this this is sort of the the nitty-gritty of it, right?
34:20
SPEAKER_00: Where you literally have to mass produce costumes, and these are all the there's some uh I'm sure there's some machine fabrication, but for you all, you all do a lot of it by hand, right?
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Could you talk about that process a little bit?
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: So in the production phase, we have two main teams.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: We have the production team led by Ronald Guy James that does the sewing and so forth.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: There's also another team led by a guy called Courtney Red out of Toronto.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: And his team of folks, they do the headpieces, the back acts, and so forth.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, so those two, and that that's I tend to refer to them as more the engineering team.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: So they have to produce items that may stand up for two days for the masqueraders.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: In the case of the king and the queen and the individuals, they have to they have to run a bit longer than that.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, so so those guys are the guys that have engineering eyes and so forth.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: And they put that together.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: So as I said, we have two teams, one team working, working the uh putting together the sewing, and this and that, and they have, and then you have the teams putting it together, the backpacks, the eyepieces, and so forth.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: And um, as it anything else, it's constant communication between the both teams.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: And then we'll then when you throw the design into the mix, those those three have to get get everything done.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: And you are talking about mass-producing costumes for people of all shapes, sizes, heights, that kind of thing.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, you have yeah, you obviously have different categories of sizes, um, but they these costumes have to be made in a way that it doesn't matter what your body type is, on the day, it needs to be able to be functional, meaning you should be able to put it on, it will fit, and you can move with it for two days on the road.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: So, with everything else, we have outliers, so we may have extremely short persons that don't fit.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: And we have to customize their costumes.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, this year we use a lot of capes, so we would have to cut the cape shorter for shorter persons.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, we have some plus size people in the ban, and of course, we have to to produce the suit.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: But all in all, yes, everything is taken into consideration.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: And um, once the masquerader identifies their needs, we tend to produce the suit.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, this this is like a a real big thing.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: And so this and you are one of how many, how many um medium and large bands would you say they are if you had to guess um in in Triland for the carnival season?
37:17
SPEAKER_01: I would say um in the large category in Port of Spain, there may be uh say about eight to ten bands.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: And now these are all bands with subscriptions of 3,000 plus people.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, a large category is anything above 800.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: I stipulated by the the rules there, the National Carnival Commission rules.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: But when you look at the megabands, yeah, yeah, they they they cater for 3,000.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: 3,000 and more.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of on the low end, right?
37:50
SPEAKER_01: That's that's on the low end, yeah.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: So again, so you have these entities, all of these organizations, basically companies, right?
37:59
SPEAKER_00: That that this is what you do throughout the year.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: So there's an annual cycle.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: This is not something you all start working on in November.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: I think I think mass has evolved now to tell your um activities.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, on in within the medium band category, um I would say there are 15 to 20.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: Um is there anywhere between 200, um, 600, 800 masqueraders.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, then there are small categories.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: Small bands and uh a lot of just quite, yeah, yeah.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't think anybody has a counter.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: Those are those are probably a little more organic.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you have small and then you have many.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: The many are organic, two or three people come together and they do this.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: So so um um carnival is still at the end of the day, in all the people.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: So if you as a single entity wants to produce your own costume and come on the road, you're free to do so.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: You can register as well.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: You can register and may not have a music truck for you or bar, but yeah, you were free to to do so because at all the judging points there's music.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: They are equipped with music for you to cross the stage and be judged just as any of the large bands.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so like those blue devils that were ahead of us, they they didn't have music or anything like that, but they did they crossed the stage exactly, yeah, and they had music playing and all of that.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's what 10 10 votes.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so you could actually be and you could you could be judged in that category if you choose to.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Correct, whenever you register.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: Wow, wow, that's fantastic.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: So I want to take a step back and talk a little bit about kings and queens because that's a big thing.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Um bit because there's a separate judging category for that, there's a separate competition for that, not just on the road.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: And I've always been curious as to like what the um what the conversations are that go into uh a king and a queen costume.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: And a king costume could be, you know, these things are like sometimes 10 feet, 20 feet in the air, sometimes 20 feet wide, and uh, but I'm sure there are actual limits on on what your king said.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about about kings and queens.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, so so kings and queens in terms of dimensions, the stage has a specific dimension.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: So um I guess you're limited by that, but immediately anything goes.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, one and that that so the king and queen competition.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: So each banner is allotted two representatives in the senior category for king and queen.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Um this year, on the male side, I believe there was 60-something entrants, 69 or so, and on the female side, about 60 as well.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, so these costumes are probably the most elaborate costumes you will see.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, as you say, some of them may be 20 feet in the air, 30 feet wide.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: Some of them may make it on the on the parade route on Carnival, Monday and Tuesday, some may not, just because um because of the sheer size of it.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: Power lines.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: And the width of the road itself.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: So so electrical company has deemed that they will guarantee that power lines don't drop it below 18 feet.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: Um so you have that to play with and just the the width of the road, yes, sometimes may not facilitate a 30-foot structure coming through.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: Some costumes can be dismantled, so at least of the costumes can go through.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: But um a lot of them they're just too too large to these are so heavy, they're they're typically on wheels, right?
41:58
SPEAKER_01: And um the majority are on wheels now.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: There are some that are still carried on bats and masqueraders.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, the majority of them are on boats.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: The competition itself, you are judging various co categories.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: So they have creative, topical, you have a myriad of other categories that you can be judged in.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: And the the panel will judge you.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: You go through a preliminary round, then a semi-final round, and then a final round.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: So we start with 60, then you come hit to 20.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: Then you come to the final round, which is the top 10.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: They compete for senior king and queen of the babs.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and that competition is essentially like a showcase where they come up onto the stage and the the masquerader that is pulling it or wearing it, they move around the stage.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: So the way the the king and queen costume moves is a big deal, of course.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: The way it looks, the way it turns.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, but also there's a bit of pageantry based on the skill of the masquerader themselves, right?
43:09
SPEAKER_00: They have they have people who like that is their specialty.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: They play Poetry Mass, yes.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: So so there's a there's a judging criteria called the spirit of carnival, which I guess that is uh from my perspective, it's hard to define.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure these judges have the criteria defined, but I tend to say that genesic one ability to to portray the mass itself is where is where you'll be a judge.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: Right.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: And um and that's big.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously there are prizes to be won, but there's also like bragging rights, right?
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Because I I imagine winning like band of the year or winning your king and queen winning means that increases the popularity of your band and allows you to attract more.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: More people the following yeah.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, everyone starts off with well, the majority of person starts off with that in mind.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: In terms of an entrance into the king and queen competition or an entry into the carnival band parade competition.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not a single driver, right?
44:20
SPEAKER_01: But um it is one of the elements that those that are involved in producing mass use to energize their efforts.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, this is this is a visual medium, so you want it to be you want it to be well received, you want it to be celebrated, you want it to be seen by as many people as possible, and and that, you know, as you sort of make your way through these competitions, you get seen by more and more people as a as a natural part of that process.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: As um perennially, there's certain names that come up and are associated with with Big Mass and the Kings and Queens and uh associated with their production teams and so forth, and yeah.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: So you gain notoriety year by year by getting through these competitions.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, these are high stakes, right?
45:13
SPEAKER_00: Because you you have to think about not only the visual story that you're telling as a band, if if you are um making spectator mass, but also like the safety and the experience of your masqueraders as well.
45:28
SPEAKER_00: Because they are there to have a good time.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: Your job is to make them look awesome and also ensure that they have the best time possible over the the two-day period.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd like to to think of the kinetic and all other masters as event management companies.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: So we're managing a a a mega event over two days.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: Um preparation is probably six to nine months in advance, but at the end of the event is a TV event that we're managing.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: That just happens to move constantly.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: It just happens to be on your oh man.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, um, listen, Kevin, uh, this has been an absolute pleasure.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if there's anything else you want to touch on, but I will certainly put um the links uh for kinetic again in the show notes for this because I really encourage people to go and look at the presentation from this year.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, you could check out our Facebook page for uh images from my images that I shot.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: But you could find this stuff, just Google Carnival and I I encourage you all of you to look at all of the wonderful work that goes into Carnival.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, because there are many great bands out there.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, I am biased, I think Kinetic is fantastic, and I I hope that I could come back next year and play again.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: Sure, it's always always um a pleasure to have you in the band.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, on behalf of the team, I sell Peter Anne-Marie, JC, Ronald, and Richard.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: It was a pleasure having you.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, I also want to uh say thank you to the creative that that that is partnering with Connecticut now, that's Sheldon M.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: Warner.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and he's the guy responsible for all that that that you saw within the banner on the road in terms of the design concepts, and then our production team, Courtney Wayne, Ronald, and RT.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: Big thanks, and we look forward to being on the road again in 2027.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: Um participating and uh signing up to play with us, and we hope to deal with another unique and um I guess hassle-free experience in 2027.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: I love it, I love it, and that's a great way to end.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: And again, like I just love uh I love the fact that we could have this conversation and talk about it from the the logistical standpoint because in a lot of ways you you have this team of people who are dedicated to the single effort and in service of a group of people who want to just have the best time possible and keep the legacy of Spectator Mass alive in Fundar and Tobago.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: So for that, I applaud you and I applaud your team.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: And um, again, I I I wish Kinetic all the success uh in the future going forward.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: Thank you everyone for listening again.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, please check out the show notes, please like, share, comment, subscribe, and give us a five-star rating.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: And as we say in Canada, we can talk later.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Our contributing producers are David McMillan and Lauren Leon McMillan.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: Music was provided by Peter Stanley of Home Based Productions, and I am your host, Wendell Riley.