Latest / The Vault: The Epstein Files / Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 10-13) (9/26/26)

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Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 10-13) (9/26/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: where we left off with a Michael Thomas interview with
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the OIG inspectors. Question, okay, and with a round, you
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: also don't need to speak with them. You just have
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: to make sure that they're in there and they're alive. Thomas,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: just make sure, yeah, for the round, just make sure
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: that they're in there. Question, okay, and at all times,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: do two officers... Needed to do the rounds and the counts? Answer,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: supposed to be, yeah. Question, and what's the primary purpose
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: of conducting counts and rounds? Thomas, to make sure there's
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: a body inside the cell? Question, okay, and like you said,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: no one has escaped. Thomas, yeah, make sure somebody's in there. Question,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: now are cell counts and rounds documented? Thomas, yeah. Question, okay.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: And do the COs sign documents after they conduct rounds
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: and counts? Thomas, yes. Question, now, in this case, from
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: 12 a.m. to 8 a.m., there's two people that are
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: assigned to the SHU, correct? Thomas, yes. Question, and two
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: people have to actually conduct the rounds, correct? Thomas, yes. Question,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: so if you and Noel are the only two officers
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: in the SHU... Were you both responsible for documenting the
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: round sheets and the count slips? Thomas, documenting the count slips,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: not the round sheet. I mean, if I'm not mistaken,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: there's no direct responsibility. Whoever wants to do it or
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: do it, it's not assigned or numbered. That has to
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: do this or number has to do that. The only
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: thing that we have to do is sign a count slip.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: As far as signing a round sheet, he gets cut off.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: So both have to sign the counts. But for the
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: round sheets, if one person signs it, are they basically
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: signing for both of you? Thomas. Yeah. If you're going to,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: they sign it for both. Question. So both people are
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: responsible for that signature for the rounds. Thomas. Well, because
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: I sign it, she can sign it. It doesn't make
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a difference. Question. But she's signing on behalf of the
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: both of you. Thomas. Sign that the rounds were completed. Yes. Question. Okay.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: And what do you do with the documents? After they're signed.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about rounds first. After the round sheets
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: are signed. Can you just explain to me what a
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: round sheet is? Do you keep everything on one document? Thomas.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: For all three shifts are all on one document. Question.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: So starting on each date from 12 a.m. He gets
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: cut off by Thomas. If it says 12 a.m. I
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: can't remember the exact date. It should start from 01
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: or maybe it's 1201 and continue on. Question, okay. And
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: what about counts? Sorry. What do you do with those sheets?
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: After your document, the 30 minutes, Thomas cuts them off.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: They stay there. I guess they get sent to the
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: lieutenant's office at the end. They get sent to the
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: lieutenant's office at the end of the day. Question, okay.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: And who collects them? Thomas. Internal usually collects them. Question,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: and what is internal? Thomas, how do you explain internal?
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: The staff member that rides up the elevator. And at
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, you collect five security sheets,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: round sheets, a bunch of different paperwork. He gets cut off.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Is internal like part of control? Thomas, no. It's a
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: person in an elevator because inmates can't ride the elevators
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: by themselves because we're in a high rise. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: so it's not like a compound center. So the officer
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: on that usually collects all the rounds. If somebody else
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: hasn't done it, the officer on the elevator will usually
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: do it. which is called internal. Question, is it a
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: lieutenant or an officer or either? Answer by Thomas, it's
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: an officer. Question, it's an officer. Okay. And do you
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: call anyone with the numbers for either counts or rounds? Thomas,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: you call control center. Question, do you call them or
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: did they call you? Thomas, no, you call them. Question,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: you call them. And how do you call in the
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: control center? Do you ask for someone? Thomas, no, you
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: call CNA. I forgot and don't ask me what CNA
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: stands for because you have a control center and then
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: you have another person. And if it's still two, because
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: it used to be one at a time, but you
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: have the control center and then another person in there
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: and the person is called CNA and you would call
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: them and they would have a sheet. They would call
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: for the count that they could verify for the count question.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Is it just for the counts? Not for the rounds. Thomas,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: it's just for the counts question. Okay. When you call,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: do you give them a number? Thomas, yeah, you call
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: and give them a number. Question, okay, and is it
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: just one overall number? Thomas, yeah, it's an overall number.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Question for the shoe. So it would be, you wouldn't
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: say per tier. Thomas, no. No, they just say one
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: base count of the whole shoe. Question, okay, so on
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: August 10th, during your shift, from 12 a.m. to approximately 6.33 a.m.,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: when did you conduct rounds in the shoe? Thomas. On
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: August 10th? I didn't. Question. No rounds were conducted? Thomas. No.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I don't recall doing any rounds. Question. Okay. When did
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: you conduct sales during your shift in the shoe on
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: August 10th? Thomas. Sales? Question. Sorry. Sell counts. My bad.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: When did you conduct the counts during your shift? Thomas.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I didn't. Question. You didn't? Okay. And did Noelle? Thomas. No.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: She didn't. Question. No, she didn't. So no one conducted
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: rounds or counts on August 10th, 2019? Mr. Thomas. No,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: on my shift, no. Question. Okay. Prior to 6.33 a.m.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: on August 10th, 2019, when was the last time you
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: conducted a round within the shoe? Mr. Thomas. Aye. He
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: gets cut off. Would you have conducted rounds on August 9th, 2019? Thomas. Yeah, prior.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: The day. The day prior. Question. And do you recall
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: if you actually conducted any rounds that day? Thomas, I
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: probably did it for the rounds and then my counts.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: I probably did a couple there, yeah. Question, a couple? Thomas,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: I know I did my count. I don't know how
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: many rounds that I did. Question, okay. Do you know
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: if you did the 12 a.m., the 3 a.m., and
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: the 5 a.m.? Thomas, yeah. I would assume I did, yes. Question, yes.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: So if we go back to the video, will we
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: be able to see that you did those? Thomas, you'll
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: see if I did it. Question, all right. So your
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: belief is the August 9th, you did actually conduct those rounds. Thomas,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I would assume I did my counts. Yes. Question, okay.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: We're all in the rounds that were documented, conducted on
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: August 9th. Thomas, I don't know. I don't know. Question,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: would you guess that they weren't? Thomas, I guess that
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: they were before anything else. Before I said that they weren't,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: I would have guessed that they were. Some rounds were
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: probably conducted. Question. Okay. Some were conducted. So maybe some weren't. Thomas,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: maybe some wasn't. Nobody's perfect. Question. Okay. All right. Question.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: One person has to do the round. Where's the notebook? Thomas,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: that's the round sheet. Question. Okay. So this is August 10th, 2019.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: The round sheet shows 12. through, it was only signed
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: up until 6, 630. Different dates. Different tiers. Okay, can
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: you just explain, are these, is this for the overall
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: shoe and the different tiers listed on it? Mr. Thomas, yes. Question, alright, now,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: he gets cut off by Thomas. It's not labeled at
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: different tiers, no. It's not labeled at different tiers. Well, yes,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: each paper is a different tier. Question, yes, so like,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: This says tier G. That one is tier H. Thomas, yeah. Question, correct? Thomas,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: each thing's a different tier. Question, tier K. Thomas, no,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: tier L. Question, that's a different count. Okay, so these
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: are what's signed after a round is conducted. Thomas, yeah. Question,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: all right. And these are signed, but none were actually conducted.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Is that correct? Thomas, yes. Question, okay. Are any of
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: these signatures actually yours? Thomas, no. Question, okay, so whose signature,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: whose initials are these? Thomas, it's Noel's. Question, all right,
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: but as you mentioned before, you are both actually responsible
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: for signing. Thomas, no, we're both not responsible. Question, I know,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: but responsible for? Thomas cuts them off. Signing? He gets
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: cut off. Conducting them? Thomas, both are supposed to be conducting, yeah.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: Both are responsible for conducting. Question, okay, so why didn't
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: you guys conduct the rounds? Thomas, I couldn't tell you.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: I was tired that day. As you can see by
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: the paper, I do a lot of overtime. I was
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: just tired, just exhausted that day. Question, um, all right.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Can you just initial that date, sir? Thank you. And
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: you said that you also didn't conduct any of the
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: cell counts on the shoe on August 10th, 2019, correct? Thomas,
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: cell counts. What do you mean cell counts? Question, the counts.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: So that was the rounds. These are the counts. Thomas counts, yes. Question, sorry,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: the inmate counts. I don't know why somebody wrote, okay,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: so the 12 a.m., 3 a.m., 5 a.m., none of
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: those were conducted? Thomas, no. Question, are these counts? the
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: three where they, can you just tell me what it
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: is we're looking at here? It looks like this is
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the overall 12 a.m. count. Thomas cuts them off. Institution count. Question,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: so this is the institution count, and this is for
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: all three of those counts? 12 a.m., 3 a.m., 5 a.m.? Thomas, yes. Question,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: all right, awesome. Mr. Mitchell, who is a lawyer, and
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the number doesn't change or anything? Thomas, no. Mitchell, okay,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: all right. So is that the time of the count? Thomas, no,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: that's the time of the counts on either one of them.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: That's not the time of the counts. Question, look at
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: the bottom. Thomas, yeah, the time when it was printed,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: the time it was printed. Question, at the top, And
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: at the bottom is the time of the count. Thomas, yeah,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: what time? Question, the first one was at 1249, was
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: when it would have been cleared. Is that correct? Thomas, yes. Question.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: And then this one would have been three. It looks like. Thomas, 324. Question, 324.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the 319 on here means. Thomas,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: it means good verbal. GV means good verbal. Question, oh, okay,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: so good verbal at 319. Thomas, clear counted. Question, and
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: the next one was at 5.30. So, that's the overall count.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Can you just tell me? What are these pages? Thomas,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: that's the hospital, which is the suicide room. That means
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: that three inmates were out of their cell that were
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: down in the suicide room. Question, okay. Thomas, I mean
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: those four inmates. Question, and what about this? What's that? Thomas,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: That's just the paperwork that's in the computer system saying
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: that they were taken from one place to another. Question. Okay. Thomas.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: They were taken from their cells to the hospital. Question. Okay.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: And these are the actual count slips? Thomas. These are
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: the actual count slips. Question. All right. Can you find
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: which count slips were the ones used from the shoe
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: on August 10th? Thomas. I would say ZA. Question. I
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: think it might be the next page. Okay, so that's ZA,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: the very last page. And whose signatures are those? Thomas,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: mine and Noelle's. Question, you and Noelle? Okay, and you
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: actually did sign this? Thomas, yes. Question, okay, and it
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: says 8-10-19. And what does that time say? Thomas, 12-01. Question,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: who would have filled that part out? Thomas, um, he
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: gets cut off. Can you tell? Thomas, yeah, that looks
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: like my handwriting. Question, So your handwriting would have filled
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: that out. All right. And did you have a conversation
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: with Noelle at the time? Thomas, no. I don't recall
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: any conversation with her. Question you don't recall. So was
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: it like, hey, we're tired. Let's just fill this out. Thomas,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I don't recall. It could have been. I don't recall
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: saying that, but it could have been something to that nature.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: going to pick up where we left off. All of
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: the information that goes with this episode can be found
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: in the description box. What's up everyone and welcome to
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: going to pick up where we left off with a
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Michael Thomas interview with the OIG inspectors. Question. Do you
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: remember having any conversation with Control Center or the Ops
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Lieutenant about the fact that those numbers are different? Thomas, no. Question.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: So do you remember? Were you the one who called
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: that number on that night? Thomas, I don't remember. Question,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: you don't remember. Thomas, I don't remember. Question, you don't remember.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: And I only say this just because of everything that's
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: surrounding this. These were the three counts prior and obviously. Thomas, uh-huh.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: This is the kind of reason for us interviewing you. Thomas,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: but then also, he gets cut off. Question, do you remember?
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: It says here, you can look at the next. So?
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: This is DA. What does that number say? Thomas, 72. Question.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Whose handwriting is this? Thomas, this one is mine. That's mine. Question.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: So that's all yours? And you did sign this one? Thomas, yes. Question.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: And this is the 3 a.m. count? Thomas, uh-huh. Question.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: What does this say? Thomas, 72. Question. All right. So
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: do you recall a conversation with the Ops Lieutenant with
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: regard to the discrepancy? Thomas, I don't recall. I don't
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: recall a conversation with redacted the discrepancy, but I'm sure
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: that another one was sent down changing because they wanted
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: to clear. I'm sure that another one was sent down
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: saying 72 with the correct number on it. The person
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: that can see that's down there definitely would have verified that. Oh,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: you can have the wrong number and switched it out. Question.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Do you remember those speaking with the person on the
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: phone and saying that Thomas, I don't. Question. You don't
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: remember any conversation with them telling you you've got to
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: do a new count, a new count slip. Thomas. I
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: don't recall any conversation. I would be sure that he
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: didn't just let that just go with the wrong number
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: on there. Or maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. Question. Well,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I think it was a she that you would have
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: spoken to. Thomas. It's a he. Question. Oh, this person
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: is a he. So it wouldn't have been redacted that
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: did this one. Thomas. What do you mean? Question. Who
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: would have? Can you tell me which? Because doesn't the
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Ops Lieutenant have to take one of the counts? Can
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: you tell me who it was that took this count
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: at 12 a.m.? Thomas, I couldn't tell by the handwriting. Well,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know who took it. It doesn't say who
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: took it. It just says who prepared it. Question, okay.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Do you at all recall speaking with Redacted about these
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: counts on August 10th, 2019? Thomas, no, I don't. Question, no.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: So is this the first time that you're even noticing
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: that the count? Thomas, that the count slip was wrong? Yes,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: this is the first time. Besides, this is the first
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: time he gets cut off. Would that be a big
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: deal if you're sending in a count slip that's wrong though? Thomas,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: would it be a big deal? Yeah, it would be
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: a big deal as far as the wrong count being
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: called in. And then the correct count slip would have
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: been changed before the count was cleared. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: so I'm sure. the correct count slip probably was sent down.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: It's just obviously not here. Question, but being that it's
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: kind of a big deal, that still doesn't spark your
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: memory of any kind of correction to this? Thomas, no,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: it's not sparking my memory by any kind, but I'm
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: sure a correct count slip would have been sent down. Question, okay, Thomas,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: it would have just been left at 73, and that's
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: the wrong number. Question, so a new count slip would
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: have been sent down. Is there any reason for them
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: to have that count slip that was originally prepared attached
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: to this document? Thomas, unless it got misplaced, no. I
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: don't know they would put that onto this document. Question, okay,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: fair enough. Were any supervisors present or any supervisors? So
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: you already said you didn't conduct any counts. So obviously
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: no supervisors were present for any counts or rounds during
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: your shift, correct? Thomas, uh-huh. Question, were they required to
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: be present for any counts or rounds during their shift? Thomas,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: they're required to take one count. I don't know which
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: count they're required. I don't know what's the book thing,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: but which one they required. But are they required to
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: take rounds in the shoe while I'm there? I don't know. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they're actually supposed to have to
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: do one round per unit or anything like that. I
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: really don't know. Question, so when you say they're required
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: to take one count, do you mean in the control center? Thomas,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: in the control center downstairs, yes. Question, yeah, they're supposed
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: to take an institutional count. Thomas, exactly. Question, but are
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: they required to go to the shoe and physically do
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: either a round or a count? During each shift? Thomas,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Question, did they ever do that during
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: any of your morning, your shifts, from midnight to 8 a.m.? Thomas,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: did they ever come take a count with me? Question,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: do a round or a count with you? Thomas, yeah,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: I've seen them do it before. I've seen them just come.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Some will count a unit from time to time. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: I don't recall that night, which lieutenant, but I've seen lieutenants.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I'll count that unit so you don't have to worry
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: about it. Since we'd be shorthanded sometimes, if they're out
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: there and about at that time, they'll just take it then.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: They'll take the three count, Like I said, it varies. There's,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: as far as I know, there's no black and white
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: way to do it. Question, okay, so you don't know, Thomas,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: as far as he gets cut off. Question, requirement saying
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: that you know a lieutenant needs to do a count
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: or a round. Thomas, yeah, I don't know of any requirement. Question,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: so you think when people did it in the shoe
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: you think, your understanding, was that they were doing it
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: just to help you out? Thomas, yeah, if they did
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: it while I was in the shoe, yes. Question, Do
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: you recall when you worked in the SHU, if there
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: were any recent times? Like, I know you worked on
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: August 9th. Do you remember at all? I know it's
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: a different day. Thomas, on the 6th, I think. Question,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: do you remember at that time if a lieutenant helped
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: or assisted with the count? Thomas, I don't. Question, you don't? Thomas,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I don't. Question, fair enough. All right, so you already
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: said we don't need to go through all these individually. Thomas, okay. Question,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: one by one. You said you didn't do the 12 a.m.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: at 3 a.m. and the 5 a.m. What conversation did
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: you have with Noel? about this during that time? Answer,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Question, I know you asked specifically about
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the 12 a.m., but what about it during your shift
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: at all? Like not doing any of the counts or
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: any of the rounds? What conversation did you have with Noelle? Thomas,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I don't remember having any conversation with her about it, no. Question,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: so it wasn't even discussed? Like, hey, it's a long night,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: we're all tired, let's just not do these? Thomas, I
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: don't remember. Question, no. Thomas, I don't think so. I
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: don't remember anything like that. Question. All right. So not
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: one of them were conducted, but no conversation with regard
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: to it. Thomas. I don't remember any conversation with us
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: talking about it or anything like that. Question. Okay. And
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: on the 12 a.m. at 3 a.m. 5 a.m. Did
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: you call in the counts or did Noel call in
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: the counts? Thomas. I don't remember who called in the counts. Question. Okay. Thomas.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. It had to be either one. There's
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: only two of us there. I don't remember who did
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: it exactly. I really don't. Question. All right. So like
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: you said, with regard to the rounds that are signed,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: both are responsible. You know, you're supposed to both conduct it.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: One actually has to sign. Thomas, somebody has to call in. Question.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Somebody has to call it in. So you're both taking
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: responsibility for calling them in. You both take responsibility for
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: signing the round sheets. Thomas. Yes. Question. Okay. So if
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: you're documenting these rounds, did you document these counts? You
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: obviously had to document the counts at the time that
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: they were called in, correct? Because you've got to provide
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: the count slip. Thomas, yeah. Question, so if you're preparing
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: the count slip, why aren't you just? How long does
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: it take to conduct a count? Thomas, 15 minutes, 10,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: 15 minutes. Question, so if you're preparing the count slip,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: why aren't you just conducting them? Thomas, like I said,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: just exhausted. Most of the time, as you can see
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: by my monthly, I do a lot of overtime. Like
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: I said again, I'm usually the internal. I do prefer internal,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: but as you can see, I do shoe quite a
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: bit as well. And it's just something that just happened.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: It really is no easy way of putting it. It's
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: just something that just happened. Question, okay. Thomas, regrettably. Question,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: so how often would you document cell counts that you
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: didn't conduct? Thomas, not often at all. Question, not often. Thomas, no. Question,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: would it be like one per shift, two per shift? Thomas, no, like,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, no one's perfect and everything
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: like that. But I could say I've done, I usually
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: get up and do a round, just walk around and
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: everything like that. And it shows that I walked around
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: and everything like that. But it's not very often that
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I just said, fuck it, excuse my language, that I
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: just disregard my job and my duties. It's definitely not
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: often at all. Question, okay. Thomas, but like I said,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: he gets cut off. Question, it happened in the past.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: You just don't know how it. Thomas, yeah, it did.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: It's I'm sure it happened in the past, like I said.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to sit up and say I'm perfect.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: I get everything on the dot, bullet that. But I
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: try to get as most of it like that. Sometimes
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: you have bad days. Sometimes you have good days. But
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: with everything else, I just had one and I know
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: it was a bad day. Question, what about rounds? How
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: often would they not be? Thomas, same thing, same thing. Question,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: same thing. Thomas, same thing. You don't get as many
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: rounds as you can. I don't know what the number
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: of it's 7, 10, or 12, or whatever the case
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: of the number it is, but you do get the
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: rounds and everything, even if you get them done. If
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: you don't get them done by every half hour, you
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? I've done them every hour one time,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: you know, just being exhausted. Question right. Thomas, but I
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: do get some done. And like I said, this particular time,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I guess I didn't get anything done. Question, now, does
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: it have anything to do with like being the 12 a.m.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: to 8 a.m. shift? You know, why do they have
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: three separate counts at that time? Thomas, that's an institution thing. Question,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: is it what the inmates like typically try to harm themselves?
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Is that why they're done more often from that time? Thomas,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: it's actually changed. Before the count was done at 945. Now,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: it's done at 10. I don't know the particular reason why.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: That's just standard BOP protocol since I've been there. To
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: make most counts. Question. Okay, do you know of any
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: other staff members that are also entering their slip counts
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: and rounds? Thomas, I don't know what other staff members do.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I'm locked in whenever. If I'm on internal or if
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I'm on indiscernible. If I'm on one unit, I don't
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: know what other housing units are doing. Question, sure. So
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: you mentioned that you were certainly were other times that
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: you didn't do counts or rounds. So obviously I'm assuming
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: you weren't always working with Noel, correct? Thomas, yes. I
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: wasn't always working with Noel. Question, so I'm assuming those
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: counts and rounds weren't conducted with another staff member, correct? Thomas, no.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I said they were conducted. Question, not all of them. Thomas, yeah,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: I did say maybe not all of them, or maybe
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: most of them, or maybe all of them was conducted.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? It's not always, just not
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: done at all. Thomas, but I have conducted my counts before. Absolutely. Question,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: but I want to make sure that we're certain that
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: obviously you, Thomas cuts him off, that I said that
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not perfect. Question, yeah, that you didn't conduct all
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: your counts, that you were documented. Thomas, you can be
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: certain that I'm not perfect, that I've conducted... Every single
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: one of mine. All the time. But I've conducted most
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: of my counts. For most of the time. Question. Okay. Gotcha. Thomas. Absolutely.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Alright folks. We're going to wrap up right here. And
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: in the next episode. Dealing with the topic. We're going
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: to pick up. Where we left off. All the information.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: That goes with this episode. Can be found. In the
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: description box. What's up everyone. And welcome to another episode.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode. We're going to
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: pick up. Where we left off. With Michael Thomas and
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: his interview with the OIG inspectors. Question. So when that
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: happens though, would you have conversations with staff members in general? Like, hey, man,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: it's just a long day. Let's not do this one. Answer. Thomas. Um, absolutely.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: That depends on so many different variables. There's really no
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: conversation about, well, you know, we're not going to do
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: this or anything like that. There's really no conversation about that. Question.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I would just think that if there is no, if
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: it's supposed to be done, and there is no conversation
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: about it, that just seems like they're never done. So
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: what do you have to say? Thomas cuts them off.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Not really. He gets cut off. Like, okay, let's skip
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: this one. Thomas, like I said, I'm not the only
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: one that does this actually looks a lot different from
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: what I'm used to seeing. As you can see, because
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: right now, these only have stars. Some people have S
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: by their name because they did more overtime than others.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: So sometimes you could just be tired. Sometimes it doesn't
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: have to be a conversation. Somebody just didn't bother you
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: and you just didn't do the round at all. Question.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Do you almost like wait for someone to take the initiative?
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: And if they don't take the initiative, you both just
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: kind of sit there? Thomas. No, no. Like I said,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: it's just it could happen in any different variable way.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? But most of the time
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I would say most of the guys in there do
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: their accounts. Question. Okay. Are more counts not being done
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: in that morning shift though versus the day shift? Thomas, again,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know what other people do. Question, sure. Thomas,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: when they're about in their housing units or not? Question, okay.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: And it's kind of a common practice at the MCC
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: not to do rounds in the shoe and the counts. Thomas, no,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: it's not a common practice. I don't want to say that. Question,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't say it's a common practice. So this was
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: an unusual event is what you're saying? Thomas, yeah, definitely
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: an unusual event. Question, um, okay. I'm going to move
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: on to the next thing. Let's just talk a little
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: bit about the shoe layout. Do you have, do you mind,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: just so we can get these away from you? Do
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: you mind just initialing? Thomas, okay. And dating the top there?
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Both the rosters as well as the count slips. We
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: already did the rounds, correct? Thomas, the rounds, yeah. Question,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: so just initial and date the top. It's just to
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: show that Where Thomas cuts him off that we spoke
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: about it. Question, it's what we discussed. And this one
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: we didn't actually go over. My bad, thank you, sir,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: for initialing and dating those. So this is the layout
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: of the shoe. It looks like you said that there's
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: two levels in the shoe, correct? It starts on the
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: ninth floor. Thomas, yeah, it starts on the ninth floor
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: and goes all the way up to the 10th. Question, okay,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: are you able to tell by this, by looking at
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the letters, which one is the first floor and which
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: one is the second? Thomas, no, I can't tell. Question,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: that isn't the cells. So like the cell numbers and stuff,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: do you know which one are like L, H, and
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff? Thomas, by the numbers, no.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you which number is what. Nah, I
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: couldn't tell you what number. I really couldn't tell you
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: what the numbers are. Question, that's fine. So they're, are
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: they basically? Thomas, I'm sure that this could be the
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: top and this could be. Question, are they basically identical
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: layouts though? Thomas, on every one except for, yeah, every
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: housing unit is set up the same. Absolutely. Question, okay.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: So it looks like that aside from this, this says stairs,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: so it says kitchen area. Would the kitchen area be
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: on the first? And which is the second? Thomas, the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: kitchen is on every housing unit. Question, you have to
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: tell me. Indiscernible. Like, as far as you like, this
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: is what I'm noticing as a difference. These cells look
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: like they're all the same aside from here. It looks
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: like they're visiting activity. And then? Here it says kitchen
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: area and here it has this area. So by looking
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: at that, are you able to tell what the first
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: and what's the second? So I'm noticing the difference between
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: this and this. And like I told you folks earlier,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: this is a bit disjointed and it jumps around. So
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: I'm doing my best to try and keep it in
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: a sequence that's followable. Thomas, right? Yeah, okay. Because this
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: has office. I would have said that this would have
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: been the bottom, but this has office. This got to
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: be the bottom because the visiting floor, but he gets
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: cut off. This says M over here. See, this has
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: M in front of it. This has K. Question. These
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: are the tiers. Thomas, M, H. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: This is a tier. Okay. Question. That's what I was saying.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: And Thomas. Oh, in front of there. You said, I see.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I heard that you said indiscernible. So H would be,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: this would, I think K is the And it's just
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: all disjointed here, folks. G is where? Where's G? G
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: is the top. There we go. Question. That's what I thought. So,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: and these are the L tier over there. Thomas. Oh,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: because this is 10 South. This is 10 South. Question.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: And just since you mentioned it, what is 10 South? Thomas,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: another housing unit inside the institution. Question. Is it the
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: super secure one inmate per cell? Thomas, yeah. Question, it
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: has cameras in it. Thomas, yeah. Cameras all around and
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: everything like that. Question, right. So high profile type of thing. Thomas,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: high profile inmates and everything like that go in there. Yes. Question,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: all right. So did you say then this is because
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: that's 10 South? This is the second floor? Thomas, yes. Question,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: all right. I'm just going to write on top of
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: this right here second. Thomas, okay. Question, second floor. And
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: on this one, I'm just going to ride first floor. Thomas. Yeah.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: You separated by floors, but they're all in one place. Thomas.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: It's not too different. Separate floors. When you're saying floor,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking ninth floor, seventh floor. But this is all technically. Question.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: It's all the shoe. Thomas. It's all the shoe. Yeah. Question. Correct.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: But there are two floors in the shoe, right? Thomas. No,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: it's really not. Well, yeah, it's not two floors. Question.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Like a split level almost. Thomas. I don't know how
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: to explain it. It's not two floors like that because
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: then you would say it's three floors because when you
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: go down, you go down the steps into one and
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: you just go up the stairs, but it's all in
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: one area. Like this would all be 10 South and
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: this would be nine and then all this would be seven.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: But right here, you'll go down and you'll go up,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: but it's still all on the same floor. Question. Okay, Thomas,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: it's all on the ninth floor. Question, so it's all
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: on the ninth floor. So is the second level of
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: the ninth floor? Thomas, the second level of the ninth floor. Question,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: should I change second level or second floor to second level? Thomas, yeah.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Because you say floor, you're thinking like you went from
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: one floor to another. Like, is this the third floor
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: and downstairs would be the second floor? Question, sure. Thomas,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: but this is all, it's all one. Question, so ninth floor,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: second level. Is that correct? Thomas, yeah. Okay. I don't
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: have a problem with that. Question first level. All right.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: So you can tell me where it is that the
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: officer's station is set up. Where are you when you
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: work in the shoe? Is it all in a centralized location?
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's on the first floor. Thomas, it's on
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: the first floor and it would be roughly, this is
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: kind of a setup. That's crazy, but it would be over. No,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: because that's K and L. So this would be, it's
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: between K and he gets cut off. So is this
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: the kitchen area? Question, this is recreation. Would it be
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: somewhere over like here? Thomas, well, see, because of the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: way that this is set up, it would be somewhere
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: over here. It's not level with the tiers. Question, okay. Thomas, like,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: because how this is set up. May I? Question, yeah,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: you can even draw. Thomas, all right. Like I'm saying,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: it's in this space here, officer station, but it's not
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: on the same level as the tiers. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: like the way if I say officer station, He gets
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: cut off, so it's like below it. Thomas, you're thinking
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: it goes down. If I say officer station here, you're
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: thinking that it's right next to K-tier and M-tier, but
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: it's not like that. Question, okay. Thomas, like this, the
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: officer station would be somewhere on this general area right here.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: But then K-tier is over here, but it's downstairs. Question, okay. Thomas,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: and then J-tier is upstairs, but it's still on the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: 9th floor downstairs. But it just goes, like I said,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: it has steps here. Like, how is it? It got
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: steps down to one, steps going down to two. So
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: they're not on the same. He gets cut off, I understand.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Answer by Thomas. Floor is the officer's station. Question. So
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: you think it's actually outside here and not more like
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: in here? Thomas, yeah. It's kind of like in between.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: I would say more like here, like in between them. Question, okay,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: so from the officer's station, can you see like the
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: doors to the cells? Thomas, you can see the doors
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: to the cells, yes. Question, you can? Thomas, you can
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: see inside the cells, absolutely not. But I can see
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: the doors to the cell. Question, so you can see
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the doors, but you can't see inside. Thomas, you can't
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: see inside the cells, no. You could just see the door. Question,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: all right, could you see the door to Epstein's cell? Thomas,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: you can see his door. Yeah, you can see his
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: door from there. Question, okay, so from the officer's station,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: was Epstein pretty much the closest cell to the officer's station? Thomas, no. Question,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: it wasn't? Thomas, no. It's not the closest. The M tier,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: because if I'm not mistaken, Epstein was on the second tier.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: So he would have been on L tier. He would
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: have been up here. So all the cells in M tier,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: just right here, would have been the closest to the
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: officer's station. M tier, and even this tier, would have
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: been closer than him. Question, okay. Thomas, if I'm not mistaken,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Epstein was up here. Question, do you remember which cell
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: he was in? Thomas, this one. Question, do you mind
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: just marking that? Like put a star or something? But
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: you could see his door, but you couldn't. Thomas, yeah,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: you could see he gets cut off. It wasn't the closest. Question, Thomas, yeah,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: it's not the closest to it. Question, does it sit
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: up here though? If you can see like from down here,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: you can see there. Thomas, I don't know why he
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: would sit there. In that particular cell. Question. But you
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: can see the door. Thomas. Yes. Question. Okay. And I'll
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: just go through. And you said you couldn't see actually
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: inside the cell though. Thomas. No. You can't see inside
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: the cell. Absolutely not. Question. And you approximately like how
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: far would that be from the officer's station? Epstein cell.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: The estimate was 15 feet. Thomas. Okay. Question. Does that
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: sound right? Thomas. We're good with that. Question. So on
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: August 10th, 2019... Did you ever see anyone inside of
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Epstein's cell? Thomas, no. Question, not from the hours of
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: 12 a.m. to 6.33 a.m.? Thomas, no. From, I never
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: seen anybody going inside the cell. Question, okay, so you
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: didn't ever witness anyone, inmates, staff members? Thomas, no, I didn't. Question, okay,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: and were you present in the shoe for your entire
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: shift from 12 a.m. to 6.33 a.m.? Thomas, yes. Question, okay,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: is there like a bathroom? and everything in the shoe
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: for you to utilize? Question, yes, there is, yes. Question,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: but you can't recall ever leaving? Thomas, I don't recall
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: going to the bathroom. Question, no, not to the bathroom.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: I just meant, was there a reason for you to
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: leave that door? That someone would have had to unlock
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: or lock or let you into the control center would
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: have let you in. Well, Thomas, well, no reason somebody
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: had to go upstairs and count the other units. One
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: of us had to go up there and count the
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: other unit. There's a reason if you want to go
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: to the bathroom or get a drink of water, you
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: can go over there, but I don't remember if I
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: left or not. I don't really recall. Question, so your
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: recollection is that you remained in the shoe for the
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: hours of 12 a.m. to 6.33 a.m.? Thomas, yes. Question,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: so point being, you would have known if someone went
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: in or out of Epstein's cell? Thomas, yes. Question, and
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: no one did? Thomas, yes. No one went in, as
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: far as I know, no. Alright folks, we're going to
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: wrap up right there, and in the next episode dealing
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: with the topic we're going to pick up where we
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: left off. All of the information that goes with this
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: episode can be found in the description box. What's up everyone,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to get right back to the
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Michael Thomas interview with the OIG investigators. Question, are you
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: aware of any issues with the camera system in the
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: shoe on August 10th, 2019? Thomas, no. Question, no. Did
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: you know if any of them weren't recording? Thomas, I
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: don't know. Question, no. And you never spoke with anybody
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: about the camera system? Thomas, no. Question, did someone live
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: monitor you all when you're in the shoe? Thomas, I
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: don't know. Question, you don't know. Do you know if
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: someone is live monitoring the range of these tears? Thomas,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Question, you're not sure? Thomas, I'm not sure.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. Question, do you know how light
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: camera systems are set up? What they're pointing at and
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: what they're supposed to be covering? Thomas, I don't because
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: some of the tiers have cameras. I mean, some of
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: the cells have cameras. I don't know. Question. When you
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: say some have cameras, Thomas, I couldn't tell you. Question.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Would that be just like 10 South and then 10
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: South Lower are the ones that have cameras? Thomas. No,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: because some of the other tiers, some of the other
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: cells have cameras inside. Redacted. Question. Some of the other
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: cells do have cameras in them. Thomas. Yes. Question. Aside
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: from 10 South and 10 South Lower? Thomas, yes. Question, okay.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: What's the purpose of that? Thomas, I don't know. Just
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: when I came here, they had cameras. Question, okay. So
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: not outside of their cells, but in their cells? Thomas,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: inside of the cell, yes. Question, was there a camera
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: inside of Epstein's cell? Thomas, I don't know if his
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: tier particularly have cameras, but I do know some of
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: the tiers actually do have, besides 10 south lower, G tier,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. It's either G or H, but
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: I think it's G. Yeah, G. Besides G and 10 South? Yeah.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Some of the other cells do have cameras in them. Question. Okay.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Anything that you know that would capture the inside of
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Epstein's cell area? Thomas, no. Not inside his cell. Question. No. Thomas,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: if he doesn't have a camera, inside his cell. Question. Okay.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I'm going to move on to the next section. This
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: is about sleeping. Do you recall sleeping in the shoe
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: on August 10th, 2019? Between the hours of 12 a.m.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: and approximately 6.33 a.m.? Thomas. I recall dozing off from
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: here and there. Yes, I do. Question. Do you recall
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: how long you were asleep? Thomas. No, I don't. Question.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Do you recall if Noelle also slept on her shift? Thomas.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I don't. No, I don't. Question. So, you don't know
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: how long she was asleep for? Thomas. I don't know. Question. Okay.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Were you and Noelle seated next to each other on
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: August 10th, 2019? Thomas. If you're saying seated like how
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: me and he gets cut off. No, we're not seated
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: like that. Question. How far away were you? Thomas, maybe
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: a foot, two feet apart. I mean, it's not too far,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: but we're just sitting like right adjacent and next to
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: each other. It's like how it is. It's like an
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: L shape. Question. Okay. But I mean, you're sitting with
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: one another. Thomas. Yeah. Question. You're not like touching, but
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: you're sitting with one another. In the same area, but
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: like one person is facing one way and another person
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: is facing another way. Question, okay, and you don't recall
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: seeing Noelle actually sleeping? Thomas, no, I don't recall her sleeping. Question,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: and you did those off? You did sleep, but you
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: don't remember about how long? Thomas, I do not. Question,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: was it about two hours? Does that sound about right? Thomas,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: I really couldn't tell you. Question, okay. Do you know
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: if you were both asleep at the same time? Thomas,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Question, did you discuss like, hey, I'm
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: going to sleep, you stay awake? Thomas, no, we did not. Question, no, okay,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: no discussions were had. Are you authorized to sleep during
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: your shift in the shoe? Thomas, no, you're not. Question, okay,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: is that policy that you're not allowed to sleep? Like,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: how do you know that you're not authorized to sleep? Thomas,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: you're just not allowed to sleep at work. I don't
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: know if it's policy or not. Question, okay. And you
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: knew at the time, obviously. Thomas, yeah. Question, okay. And
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: just to go back, you knew at the time you had,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: you knew that you were falsifying those records at the
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: time of the rounds, counts, and those count slips on
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: August 9th. When you were actually certifying that you knew
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: that you were incorrectly certifying them. Thomas, the count slip? Question, yeah. Thomas, yes. Question, okay.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: Have you ever fallen asleep previously while on duty at
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: the MCC? Thomas, I probably have. Question, yeah. Thomas, yeah. Question,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: is that kind of like understood if you work that
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: shift that you kind of can doze off? Thomas, no. Answer, no. Question,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: is it a lot less active during the hours of
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: 12 a.m.? Thomas, I mean, of course, everybody's asleep at
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: that time. All inmates are asleep at that time, but
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: it's a lot, no bodies, no interaction, or anything like that.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: So I mean, sometimes you get bored. And you know,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can sleep through that. You just not
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: a little bit. It's happened with me a few times.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I do get up from time to
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: time and try to drink and definitely got a case
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: of Red Bull on hand from now on. Question, okay,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: what about Noelle? Have you worked with her in the past? Thomas,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. Maybe I have. I don't know exactly.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: I've been here 14 years. Question. So do you recall
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: her sleeping in the past? Thomas. No, I don't. Question.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: What about other people that you work with? Do you
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: recall other people that would also sleep? Thomas. No, I
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: can't recall if they were sleeping or not. Redacted. Question.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: You are just taking ownership for yourself. You know you
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: fell asleep, but he gets cut off by Thomas. That's it. Question. Okay.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Did Noel ever try to wake you up when you
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: were sleeping? Thomas. I don't recall. Question, no. Thomas, no.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. Question, did anyone report that you
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: know of? Did anyone contact you to try to wake
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: you up? If people were watching you on the cameras,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: did anybody say, hey, wake up? Or did Noel ever say, hey,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: you've got to wake up? Thomas, no. Question, no. Where
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: is the CO required to be during their shift in
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: the SHU? Is it just all over the area? Thomas, yeah. Question,
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: just walking around just within the SHU? Thomas, it's just with,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: just guess, in the shoe. Well, some other. You're required
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: to be inside the shoe. Question, is there always two
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: people required to be in the shoe at all times?
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: Can there ever be one person left alone in the shoe? Thomas,
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I've seen when it's been one person. If I'm not mistaken,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: it's required for us to be, I think, a minimum
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: of two. Question, okay, so if you need to actually
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: leave the shoe during that shift... When there's only two
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: people there, what do you do? If two people are
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: supposed to be there, do you have to call and
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: see if someone else can come and replace you? Question.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: If you're talking about, like, for emergencies, maybe, of course,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: somebody has to replace you, and maybe that could be
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: just shorthanded and you just left alone. But I know
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: sometimes we used to have to count next door. We
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: used to go count nine, the ninth floor, so it
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: just varies. Question. Okay. So, Do you have like a
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: certain amount of time that you're allowed to leave one
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: person alone? Like for instance, if you got to go
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: get help with a count, are you allowed to say, hey,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: I'll be right back and you get like a 10
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: minute window or anything like that? How does that work? Thomas,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a particular number or anything
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: like that, but if you're going to go count eight
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: or if you're going to count 10 and then you're
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: going to count nine, that's no particular time. Question, okay, Thomas,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? People walk different, and I
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: probably walk faster than, say, Mr. Redacted or yourself, where
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: some people might be walking fast. As far as I know,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: there's no particular set time. Question, so you already said
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: you didn't leave the shoe on August 10th. Did you
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: know if Noel left the shoe at all on August 10th? Thomas,
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: I don't recall. I don't remember. I don't remember. Question,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: you just know that you were there the whole time. Thomas,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: if I didn't count 10, I don't know if I
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: counted 10 or not. I don't remember if I counted
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: 10 or not. Question, now if you count 10, is
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: that considered leaving the shoe? Because isn't that count part
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: of the shoe? Thomas, I've seen that's a different number.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: It's a different floor. You're not inside the shoe. You're
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: inside 10 South, which is a totally different place. Question, okay.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: but you don't have to go through like control and
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: all those door locks. That's all kind of within the
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: general shoe area. Thomas control has to pop the door question. Oh,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: they do have to pop the door. Thomas. They do
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: have to pop the door for you to get inside.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: Same process. You take the phone off the hook. You
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: ring the officer inside the control and he has to
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: pop the door. And then once you're out, once control
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: pops that outer door, the officer inside has to open
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: up the inner door question. Okay. so it's its own
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: separate unit. Thomas, it's its own separate unit, just like any.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Say if I go to, he gets cut off. So
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: there's two officers at 12 and 630. Thomas cuts him off. No,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: it's one officer up there. Question, there's only one officer
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: up there. Thomas, it's one officer up there. So that's
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: why somebody has to go up there and count question
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: okay is it always from 12 a.m. to 8 a.m.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: one of the people that are in the shoe always
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: has to assist 10 south Thomas most of the time
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: they assist 10 south and sometimes more often than not
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: they have to assist 9 north as well Question, okay,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: and what's Nine North? Thomas, the unit across the hall. Question,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: is that also like a special housing unit type of situation? Thomas, no,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: it's a regular housing unit. Question, okay, but you don't
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: know if that's against policy or not. Thomas, I don't
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: know if it's against policy if you're just helping out
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: because you're short-handed. Question, sure. Thomas, short-handed then. Question, all right,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: are you guys authorized when you're in the shoe to
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: be able to access the computers? For your own personal reasons? Like,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: are you allowed to do internet searches and things like that?
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Limited personal use? Thomas, I don't know if you are
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: or aren't authorized or not, but I don't know if
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: it's unauthorized or not. Question, you're not even sure? Thomas,
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I'm not. Question, they don't talk to you about, like,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: what you can and can't do? Thomas, I know you're locked.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: You can't just shoot, search Facebook or YouTube, and those
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: things are not allowed on those types of computers. Redacted? Oh, okay.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: you're not allowed to do like email or like Facebook? Thomas,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: you can't do any of that stuff and you can't access.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: As far as I know, you can't access your own
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: personal email. You have the job email and everything like that.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: And that's about it. Question, are you allowed to do
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: like regular internet searches? Though and things like that, Thomas,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: I really don't know. Question, no. Thomas, no. Question, Do
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: you recall using the internet on August 10th? Thomas, I
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: wrote my name and it says, yeah, I recall using
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: the internet at the time. Question, okay. Do you remember
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: what you were searching for? Thomas, um, it says motorcycle. Question, motorcycles?
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: All right. But do you know if that was authorized
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: or not authorized? Thomas, I don't know. Question, so you're
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: not sure. Okay. Are you aware if Noel was also
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: utilizing the computer? Thomas, I don't know what she was on. Question, no.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: But do you know if she was using the computer? Thomas, yeah.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: If she was, I don't know. Like I said, we're
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: facing two totally different directions. Question, sure. Do you know
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: where you were seated? What desk you were seated at?
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: Where you happen to be seated at the OIC desk? Thomas,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: there's no specifically this is the OIC station and this
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: is somebody else here. It's not labeled that way. Question,
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: all right. The reason why I ask I'm told that
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: there was a sign on the OIC's desk that said
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein is required to have a cellmate. So I was
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: told that the OIC had like a specific desk. Do
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: you recall seeing that sign? Thomas, no. Question, on any
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: of the computer or desk areas? Thomas, I don't. Question,
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: that Epstein's required to have a cellmate. Thomas, no, I don't.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: And in the next episode, dealing with the topic, we're
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: going to pick up where we left off. All the
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found in
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: the description box.