Latest / Conspiracy! The Show / Operation Vulgar Betrayal

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Operation Vulgar Betrayal · Conspiracy! The Show

0:10
Speaker 1: Winter insurance.
0:12
Speaker 2: True, I'm a checkup. Get your fans. Wait, hey, everybody,
0:32
Speaker 2: welcome to Conspiracy The Show. I'm Adam Todd Brown.
0:36
Speaker 1: Who are you. Hey, I'm Olivia Heidar and we.
0:40
Speaker 2: Are your hosts. Olivia, how's it going. I haven't talked
0:43
Speaker 2: to you in a million years.
0:45
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean you know it's going all right,
0:48
Speaker 1: dealing with plague world. Just traveled across the country.
0:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, that had to be intense.
0:54
Speaker 1: It was very weird. It's it's it felt like that
0:58
Speaker 1: movie Carrier. Did you ever watch that movie with Crispine.
1:02
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
1:04
Speaker 1: No. It's a road trip movie about like a future
1:09
Speaker 1: play ravaged America.
1:11
Speaker 2: I mean it sounds like something I would watch.
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Speaker 1: It's pretty good. It's pretty good. I rewatched it while
1:17
Speaker 1: I was in you know, in isolation.
1:20
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you made it across the country safe.
1:23
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm glad to be back in beautiful Los Angeles.
1:27
Speaker 2: Oh. I bet just in time for it to not
1:29
Speaker 2: be safe to go outside for extra reasons.
1:33
Speaker 1: You know, I missed the piss Yellow sky is a
1:36
Speaker 1: Los Angeles.
1:37
Speaker 2: It really is beautiful.
1:39
Speaker 1: It's yeah, gorgeous.
1:40
Speaker 2: It's like Sepia tone outside all the time.
1:43
Speaker 1: It's true, you don't even need to use a filter.
1:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, like those old timey pictures you can take at
1:49
Speaker 2: the mall where you dress up like right right zoon patrons.
1:53
Speaker 1: And everyone is wearing bandanas.
1:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's California, just like the old West. We're talking
2:00
Speaker 2: about a documentary this week. We're talking, i mean more
2:03
Speaker 2: about an FBI surveillance program as depicted in a documentary
2:09
Speaker 2: called The Feeling of Being Watched, which is a two
2:13
Speaker 2: thousand and eight documentary or twenty eighteen documentary that you
2:16
Speaker 2: can watch Yeah right damn now on Amazon Prime.
2:20
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna say spoilers. You should watch it. It's
2:22
Speaker 1: really good.
2:23
Speaker 2: It's fantastic. It's directed and produced by journalist Asia Bundawi,
2:29
Speaker 2: and it centers around her investigating rumors that the community
2:34
Speaker 2: she grew up in, Bridgeview, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago
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Speaker 2: with a large Muslim population, was under FBI surveillance for years.
2:44
Speaker 2: And here's another spoiler, everybody, it was what if you
2:50
Speaker 2: can believe that?
2:51
Speaker 1: That is shocking and it it.
2:54
Speaker 2: In a pre nine to eleven world, no less truly.
2:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was one of the first big surprises for
3:01
Speaker 1: me was that this started so early in the nineties.
3:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there had already been the one World Trade
3:10
Speaker 2: Center bombing by then. Sure, so I guess it's it
3:15
Speaker 2: kind of makes sense. But the scope of this program
3:19
Speaker 2: and what it accomplished, which is zero nothing, it's just
3:25
Speaker 2: it's mind boggling. What did you think of this documentary?
3:30
Speaker 1: I thought it was really great. I thought that it
3:33
Speaker 1: was by far the best movie that I have watched
3:36
Speaker 1: for this podcast, which wasn't like a tough competition considering
3:42
Speaker 1: like this, I think the second best would have to
3:44
Speaker 1: be the Trump Tape documentary, which is like a low
3:49
Speaker 1: bar to pass. But I thought it was really engaging,
3:53
Speaker 1: really well made, and touching in a lot of ways.
3:57
Speaker 1: And really, I mean and obviously hit very close to home.
4:02
Speaker 1: Being a midwestern ERAB myself, who has since nine to
4:07
Speaker 1: eleven encountered my own very small, fair share of government
4:13
Speaker 1: interference in my life, I really found it deeply disturbing,
4:17
Speaker 1: but yeah, really compelling documentary.
4:19
Speaker 2: The stuff that goes into about the Freedom of Information
4:22
Speaker 2: Act request that we'll get into later, I found especially
4:27
Speaker 2: interesting and it speaks to something I've thought about for
4:31
Speaker 2: a long time. Because I have to research things for
4:35
Speaker 2: the countless podcasts I do, and sure there are things
4:39
Speaker 2: I've thought about filing Freedom of Information Act requests over.
4:43
Speaker 2: But then it's like you're really just telling the government
4:46
Speaker 2: that you're onto something at that point.
4:49
Speaker 1: Definitely. Yeah, that whole section was very interesting.
4:53
Speaker 2: It's such a double edged thing where it's like, ah,
4:56
Speaker 2: I'm onto you, and oh no, now you know I'm
4:58
Speaker 2: on to you.
5:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean, especially when you're looking into something
5:04
Speaker 1: that involves government malpractice, to then like rely on the
5:12
Speaker 1: government that you're you know, signing away your information to
5:16
Speaker 1: behaving appropriately is very that's like a huge risk.
5:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, because here's the thing our government doesn't behave appropriately.
5:25
Speaker 1: No.
5:26
Speaker 2: I hope that's not shocking information for the conspiracy theory crowd.
5:31
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, if that in twenty twenty, if that's
5:33
Speaker 1: shocking information to anybody in America, then they need some help.
5:39
Speaker 2: I do feel like there's still this weird trust that
5:43
Speaker 2: a lot of Americans have in our government when stuff
5:48
Speaker 2: like this like has been happening for so long and
5:51
Speaker 2: we've confirmed so much of it, Like we have sixteen
5:55
Speaker 2: either sixteen or seventeen intelligence agencies, It's like, what do
5:59
Speaker 2: you think they're doing?
6:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a there's a general need that
6:04
Speaker 1: people have to believe that there is like someone like
6:09
Speaker 1: normal or saying behind the wheel, when that is usually
6:13
Speaker 1: not the case. Usually the people who are behind the
6:17
Speaker 1: wheel are completely unhinged, like the guy that she investigates
6:22
Speaker 1: in this documentary, who is a terrifying man.
6:25
Speaker 2: Boy is he?
6:26
Speaker 1: And he shows up at one point that like, seriously,
6:31
Speaker 1: one of the scariest moments I've seen in the documentary
6:33
Speaker 1: in a long time.
6:34
Speaker 2: It's intense.
6:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, really is.
6:37
Speaker 2: The documentary starts with such a crazy story. It's the
6:41
Speaker 2: story of her when she was sixteen. She gets woken
6:46
Speaker 2: up in the middle of the night by a light
6:48
Speaker 2: shining in her bedroom and it's three o'clock in the morning.
6:51
Speaker 2: She looks out the window and sees two dudes on
6:54
Speaker 2: top of a telephone pole, and she goes and tells
6:57
Speaker 2: her mom, and her mom is like, oh, relax, it's
6:59
Speaker 2: probably just the FBI. I simultaneously love and hate that story.
7:06
Speaker 2: It's unfortunate that any community would be that comfortable with
7:11
Speaker 2: FBI surveillance, but also, wow, what a reaction.
7:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, her mom is probably my favorite character in
7:18
Speaker 1: the whole documentary.
7:20
Speaker 2: She rules, Yeah, her mom's great, and yeah, she talks
7:24
Speaker 2: about being interviewed by the FBI after they just show
7:28
Speaker 2: up at her door at one point to ask her
7:31
Speaker 2: questions at some point in the nineties, and her daughter,
7:36
Speaker 2: who is the filmmaker, asks how she knows she wasn't
7:39
Speaker 2: just being paranoid, and her mom's like, oh, no, everyone
7:42
Speaker 2: in the neighborhood will have the same story. And so
7:46
Speaker 2: she starts walking the neighborhood asking if anyone has stories
7:49
Speaker 2: about being spied on by the FBI, and like, one
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Speaker 2: of her neighbors calls her a troublemaker, but in a
7:54
Speaker 2: really cute way.
7:55
Speaker 1: Ye.
7:56
Speaker 2: One neighbor gives her bread but refuses the interview, and
8:00
Speaker 2: most yeah, most of the neighbors refuse the interviews, right,
8:04
Speaker 2: but you.
8:04
Speaker 1: Do get that. I love one of the things I
8:07
Speaker 1: like so much about how this documentary is shot is
8:10
Speaker 1: you do get a sense of the community that she
8:14
Speaker 1: grew up in, and how closely knit and how like
8:17
Speaker 1: kind to each other. Everyone is, like you said about
8:20
Speaker 1: the woman giving her bread, Like you, that's not something
8:23
Speaker 1: you would get in a usual montage of people refusing
8:27
Speaker 1: to give an interview.
8:29
Speaker 2: No, and it's she mentions at one point in the
8:33
Speaker 2: documentary that those things about her community, that they're very
8:38
Speaker 2: tight knit and that they're very philanthropic, are the exact
8:42
Speaker 2: things the FBI was investigating them.
8:44
Speaker 1: Over, right, Yeah, exactly.
8:46
Speaker 2: It's just kind of the normal way of being in
8:49
Speaker 2: that community.
8:50
Speaker 1: Well, and it's like it weaponizes these things that are
8:55
Speaker 1: seen as like those are what you might consider like
9:00
Speaker 1: classic American ideals for community. You know, like they're very
9:05
Speaker 1: close to each other, they care about each other, they
9:08
Speaker 1: lift each other up when things go wrong, and you know,
9:12
Speaker 1: and those are the very traits that are turned against
9:15
Speaker 1: them by the FBI just because they practice a different religion.
9:20
Speaker 2: Right, and it's ironic that people on the right, or
9:25
Speaker 2: especially like fiscal conservative types who are constantly arguing for
9:31
Speaker 2: social programs to be cut, this is the kind of
9:34
Speaker 2: thing that they argue will just pop up in its
9:37
Speaker 2: place as well. Charity will take care of it, the
9:40
Speaker 2: community will take care of it. Exactly when a community
9:43
Speaker 2: does that, that same government is like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
9:46
Speaker 2: what are you up to? It's nuts.
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Speaker 1: Christians should do that, not you guys.
9:52
Speaker 2: Exactly. So some of our neighbors do talk and they
9:57
Speaker 2: talk about, you know, just all sorts of different fun
10:01
Speaker 2: FBI surveillance activities. Cars that are always in the same
10:05
Speaker 2: spot outside the home, cars that are always there when
10:08
Speaker 2: they go to the grocery store. Someone talks about people
10:11
Speaker 2: going through their garbage.
10:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a classic government gooon tactic.
10:16
Speaker 2: So everyone in this community has stories about being watched
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Speaker 2: by the FBI. And there were two friends of hers
10:26
Speaker 2: in high school. Both of their dads got arrested and yes, yeah,
10:31
Speaker 2: they were charged with terrorism stuff initially, and then all
10:36
Speaker 2: of that gets thrown out and they're just charged with
10:39
Speaker 2: white collar crimes, which is what you see throughout this
10:42
Speaker 2: whole investigation.
10:44
Speaker 1: It's a very like Rico style, like circumventing the law
10:49
Speaker 1: to get someone who they want to accuse of a crime.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And no one in this community has been charged
10:58
Speaker 2: with anything terrorism related, right, nothing, Despite how vast this
11:04
Speaker 2: program was, which we'll get to later, no one was
11:07
Speaker 2: ever charged with like all of the charges ended up
11:10
Speaker 2: being like tax fraud stuff.
11:12
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, even like they're big. The big case that
11:16
Speaker 1: they talk about it, you know, with Salah is basically
11:21
Speaker 1: it never comes down to terrorism charges or it comes
11:24
Speaker 1: down to yeah, tax fraud and stuff.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the cases the the person has like
11:29
Speaker 2: literally taken off the terrorism watch list. But by that point, yeah,
11:34
Speaker 2: the story had run its course and no one so
11:36
Speaker 2: that guy was terrorist the rest of his life basically.
11:39
Speaker 1: Well exactly. Yeah, that's the thing about that watch list.
11:42
Speaker 1: It never really goes away.
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Speaker 2: So she goes to the local library to start researching
11:48
Speaker 2: claims of this surveillance, which thanks to COVID, is a
11:52
Speaker 2: thing you can't even do right now, I don't think
11:54
Speaker 2: can't do it in La No.
11:56
Speaker 1: I did enjoy her figuring out how to use my fiche.
12:01
Speaker 1: That was a fun detail because it's so difficult to
12:03
Speaker 1: use mike fiche.
12:05
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know how much editing was involved there,
12:07
Speaker 2: but I was actually very impressed with how quickly she
12:10
Speaker 2: figured it out.
12:11
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure there were a few mistakes. That is,
12:16
Speaker 1: it's a difficult technology.
12:18
Speaker 2: Yeah. I used to work for Target, but in like
12:21
Speaker 2: their credit card processing area, and I had to change.
12:25
Speaker 2: I had to change this role of film that was
12:28
Speaker 2: on one of these scanner machines like once a month,
12:31
Speaker 2: and it was the most labor intensive nightmare of a task. Yeah,
12:37
Speaker 2: and I imagine researching something on microfiche has to be
12:40
Speaker 2: the same way.
12:41
Speaker 1: I mean, I've never done like hardcore research she did,
12:44
Speaker 1: but I come from a whole family of librarians, and
12:48
Speaker 1: so I've definitely had my fair share of misadventures with microfiche.
12:54
Speaker 2: So she, in her Microfiche Journeys, finds that the FBI
13:00
Speaker 2: has been investigating the Bridge View Mosque, which is her community,
13:06
Speaker 2: since nineteen goddamn eighty.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, fucking crazy.
13:10
Speaker 2: And she talks to a journalist who reported on the
13:13
Speaker 2: investigation back in the day, and that journalist tried to
13:16
Speaker 2: get the FBI to tell her why this investigation was happening,
13:19
Speaker 2: and they said, even just telling her that would threaten
13:22
Speaker 2: national security.
13:23
Speaker 1: Oh that's of course, that's very convenient.
13:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, what a handy answer. But they did eventually find
13:31
Speaker 2: out the name of the operation, Operation Vulgar Betrayal.
13:36
Speaker 1: Which is and they talk about it in the movie,
13:38
Speaker 1: but that is quite a name.
13:40
Speaker 2: It's a crazy name.
13:42
Speaker 1: I always have wondered how, especially like the intelligence agencies,
13:48
Speaker 1: come up with these fucking They've got to have like
13:50
Speaker 1: a whole department that is just dedicated to weird code names,
13:55
Speaker 1: like vaguely ominous code names.
13:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, they actually say that at one point point in
14:00
Speaker 2: this documentary. One of the government people she speaks to says,
14:05
Speaker 2: they have a whole department in Washington say that names
14:09
Speaker 2: these things. And with a name like that, I know
14:12
Speaker 2: this is an overly positive hope to have about the FBI,
14:16
Speaker 2: But part of me feels like whoever named this didn't
14:20
Speaker 2: agree with this operation, and like, you know, you're just
14:24
Speaker 2: spying on American citizens, right, Okay, let's call this operation
14:27
Speaker 2: vulgar betrayal. Yeah, exactly, but also probably not who's because.
14:33
Speaker 1: I guess it's they're betraying because they're Muslim. That's like
14:39
Speaker 1: the whole thing. I feel like that's the only real
14:42
Speaker 1: interpretation of that name. And it's vulgar because they're like
14:46
Speaker 1: defaming God or something.
14:48
Speaker 2: Yeah. I suppose that's possible too. It could have been
14:51
Speaker 2: a real I have no idea real Christian type who
14:54
Speaker 2: named it. Probably lots of those in the FBI.
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Speaker 1: I bet I bet it was right who made it
15:00
Speaker 1: up himself. He seems like the type who would have
15:03
Speaker 1: a weird creative brudge.
15:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of FBI creeps, Robert Wright is the guy
15:09
Speaker 2: who headed up this operation. Worth noting he was eventually
15:14
Speaker 2: kicked out of the FBI for racial profiling and religious discrimination.
15:21
Speaker 1: Who would have thought if.
15:23
Speaker 2: You can believe that? And so she finds some files
15:28
Speaker 2: about Operation Vulgar Betrayal online, and a lot of it's redacted,
15:34
Speaker 2: but she's able to figure out pretty quickly that they
15:37
Speaker 2: were just surveilling like Muslim organizations in general, and especially mosques.
15:44
Speaker 2: Like one of the groups that is the main target
15:47
Speaker 2: of Operation Vulgar Betrayal is this umbrella group that covers
15:50
Speaker 2: like most mosques in the United States.
15:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, or at least like regionally, like a very large area.
15:58
Speaker 2: And it's it's hard to I don't know how you
16:01
Speaker 2: would defend that as not being profiling, like because they are.
16:06
Speaker 2: I mean, you're just assuming well, I mean it's a
16:08
Speaker 2: Muslim group. They're pretty tight knit and philanthropic, so surely
16:13
Speaker 2: they're helping terrorists out.
16:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't see how you have any
16:17
Speaker 1: other how there's any other interpretation, Like they obviously have
16:20
Speaker 1: their legalese defense of it, but even that is pretty
16:25
Speaker 1: thin as far as it goes.
16:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the in a really weird twist, one of
16:31
Speaker 2: the main the person who kind of inspires Operation Vulgar
16:37
Speaker 2: Betrayal is this guy who was living in the same
16:40
Speaker 2: house as the filmmaker when she was a child, and
16:44
Speaker 2: he ends up getting arrested and the house gets seized
16:48
Speaker 2: by the government, and he's one of the people in
16:53
Speaker 2: the neighborhood that they end up arresting and labeling him
16:57
Speaker 2: a terrorist right away, and as time goes on it
17:01
Speaker 2: turns out he's not. But by that point the story
17:05
Speaker 2: has spread through the media.
17:07
Speaker 1: That way they hold him on like tax charges and stuff.
17:10
Speaker 1: Is that that's the that's the the guy. I think
17:13
Speaker 1: his name is salav right, right, And he was like
17:17
Speaker 1: the biggest name that like they were able to catch
17:21
Speaker 1: from this, from this investigation, and he they still didn't
17:25
Speaker 1: get him on terrorism.
17:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like he's the biggest name and he's not a
17:30
Speaker 2: name at all, really, right, Which is a lot of
17:35
Speaker 2: time and resources spent on nothing on just spying on
17:41
Speaker 2: people because they are not white.
17:45
Speaker 1: Yep, not white, not Christian. Yeah, it's it's it's insane.
17:49
Speaker 1: I would love well never know, but I would love
17:51
Speaker 1: to know how much money was spent on this operation
17:55
Speaker 1: since the eighties.
17:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in the file she looks at, it says
18:00
Speaker 2: they intended to interview five hundred people and that's actually
18:04
Speaker 2: that's a pretty important number once this documentary wraps up,
18:09
Speaker 2: which it doesn't. It's kind of a frustrating conclusion that
18:13
Speaker 2: this documentary comes to sure because of the government.
18:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's no real conclusion that they can really
18:20
Speaker 1: come to. There's no closure really because it's still ongoing.
18:25
Speaker 2: One of the craziest parts to me in the at
18:28
Speaker 2: least the beginning part of this documentary, because there are
18:31
Speaker 2: some really crazy, crazy moments.
18:34
Speaker 1: It's got twists and like and like we said at
18:36
Speaker 1: the start, you guys should really it's it's on Amazon Prime.
18:40
Speaker 1: You should check it out. It's a really good documentary.
18:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, it should be a movie, Like it would be
18:45
Speaker 2: a really good movie.
18:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to watch a narrative like fictional
18:50
Speaker 1: movie about it.
18:51
Speaker 2: And one of the craziest parts in the beginning is
18:56
Speaker 2: after she's gotten all these documents online about Operation Vulgar Betrayal,
19:02
Speaker 2: and she's going through all this stuff with her family
19:05
Speaker 2: and there's things in these documents that match up to
19:08
Speaker 2: things in her childhood. Even through all that there I
19:11
Speaker 2: think it's her brother when they're eating dinner is still like, okay,
19:15
Speaker 2: were the people wearing FBI hats when they showed up?
19:17
Speaker 2: This was all ten years ago.
19:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, I like, yeah, I get it.
19:22
Speaker 1: I get it on both ends because it's like it
19:25
Speaker 1: is that classic you know. She opens with the thing
19:27
Speaker 1: about the Panopticon and kind of closes on that too,
19:31
Speaker 1: but like it is this thing where you've got to
19:34
Speaker 1: believe in something, you know, to an extent. So I
19:37
Speaker 1: get why, you know, someone might not want to believe
19:40
Speaker 1: that the government has focused this much effort onto their
19:44
Speaker 1: community for no reason. But I mean, like I don't, like,
19:48
Speaker 1: I can't like empathize because you know, I obviously don't
19:51
Speaker 1: have that trust, but like I understand.
19:54
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah. At this point, she files a bunch
19:58
Speaker 2: of Freedom of Information Act requests to get information about
20:03
Speaker 2: Operation Vulgar Betrayal, and that's when she like, right away
20:07
Speaker 2: it dawns on her, like, oh, okay, I'm giving my
20:10
Speaker 2: email address to the FBI.
20:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had no idea the amount of stuff that
20:16
Speaker 1: you had to hand over in order to file a
20:20
Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act request. That was all news to me.
20:24
Speaker 1: I was very surprised by all that.
20:26
Speaker 2: It's a very intimidating process, and especially in this case,
20:30
Speaker 2: because she keeps getting these rejections and having to refile,
20:35
Speaker 2: and it's really clear that the FBI has something, but
20:39
Speaker 2: they just don't want to give it to her exactly.
20:42
Speaker 2: And one of the letters she gets says they can't
20:45
Speaker 2: confirm or deny that they have a file on her mom,
20:48
Speaker 2: but her mom had also been visited by the FBI,
20:51
Speaker 2: so of course they have a full right of course. Yeah,
20:53
Speaker 2: And eventually she gets a letter saying they found more
20:55
Speaker 2: than thirty three thousand pages of records regarding her request.
21:00
Speaker 2: That is insane.
21:02
Speaker 1: It's really it's hard to even comprehend how much information
21:07
Speaker 1: that is.
21:08
Speaker 2: And this is just on her community, right, just just like.
21:12
Speaker 1: A single small neighborhood, you know, on in outer Chicago Land.
21:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a suburb of Chicago, and they have thirty
21:20
Speaker 2: three thousand pages of records on that one suburb of sheees.
21:25
Speaker 2: So the government tells her they have all these files,
21:28
Speaker 2: but they're also like, uh, yeah, it's going to take
21:30
Speaker 2: us three years to get those.
21:32
Speaker 1: To you, right right.
21:34
Speaker 2: And I wasn't sure was that because they were arguing
21:37
Speaker 2: they were going to have to go through them and
21:38
Speaker 2: redact each one or were they already redacted? And they're
21:42
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, it's going to take that long to
21:43
Speaker 2: print them out.
21:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like just it kind
21:47
Speaker 1: of felt to me like it was just part of
21:48
Speaker 1: the entire feeling of that she was kind of getting
21:51
Speaker 1: across of filing these boy of things, is they just
21:56
Speaker 1: don't want they want to do everything they can to
21:59
Speaker 1: make use stop asking for the paperwork, like you know,
22:04
Speaker 1: So they're just putting as many obstacles in her way
22:07
Speaker 1: as possible, putting her off, trying to get her to
22:10
Speaker 1: give up, is how it felt to me.
22:12
Speaker 2: And not only does she not give up, she sues
22:16
Speaker 2: the government. Yeah, God, that's got to be a scary
22:19
Speaker 2: thing to.
22:20
Speaker 1: Do, seriously, especially knowing what she knows.
22:23
Speaker 2: Right and yeah, especially with what she's suing them over,
22:27
Speaker 2: because it's not going to be a good look when
22:28
Speaker 2: this comes out. But this is also the United States,
22:31
Speaker 2: so like this came out and nothing really happened.
22:34
Speaker 1: We're supposed to have standards.
22:39
Speaker 2: One part that's really crazy. Immediately after, almost immediately after
22:44
Speaker 2: she uh sues the government, the city just mysteriously puts
22:49
Speaker 2: up a speed bump right outside her apartment.
22:52
Speaker 1: That part was so weird.
22:54
Speaker 2: She was like, I think it's so cars can slow
22:56
Speaker 2: down when they passed.
23:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's one of those moments that's really
23:02
Speaker 1: good where it's obviously not clear whether that was a
23:06
Speaker 1: purposeful thing that's there to help spy on her or
23:10
Speaker 1: whether she's just pa you know, being understandably paranoid after
23:14
Speaker 1: going through all of this. But it's it's it's purposely
23:18
Speaker 1: left you know, ambiguous because obviously she doesn't know the answer.
23:23
Speaker 1: But it's really it puts you right in the mindset
23:25
Speaker 1: of someone in this community where you're just questioning every
23:29
Speaker 1: little thing that seemed suspicious or out of place.
23:33
Speaker 2: Right, and then days later you get an alert from
23:37
Speaker 2: Google that says government hackers might be trying to steal
23:40
Speaker 2: your past all that was.
23:42
Speaker 1: The that I mean, I want to say that was
23:45
Speaker 1: the scariest part, but there's something later, but like God,
23:48
Speaker 1: that really freaked me out. I had never even heard
23:50
Speaker 1: of something like that before.
23:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, it almost made me wonder if there were actually
23:57
Speaker 2: government hackers trying to steal her password or if in
24:00
Speaker 2: situations like this, I mean, granted, this this scenario requires
24:05
Speaker 2: a little collaboration between Google and the government, and far
24:09
Speaker 2: be it from me to suggest anything anything so.
24:12
Speaker 1: Great freious accusation, But what if.
24:15
Speaker 2: Instead of trying to hack someone's password. In situations like this,
24:21
Speaker 2: the government just sends out that notification to scare people.
24:25
Speaker 2: I mean, it would be just as effective.
24:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see it either way, because I, like, again,
24:31
Speaker 1: I have never heard of that kind of a notification before. Ever.
24:36
Speaker 1: I didn't even know it was a possibility.
24:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd think you would have seen like a tech
24:40
Speaker 2: Crunch article about it or something.
24:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, or something, or like it would have been like
24:45
Speaker 1: a Twitter thread or I don't know, i've literally yet.
24:48
Speaker 1: That was very surprising.
24:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was in twenty eighteen. Well, it's this
24:54
Speaker 2: documentary was released in twenty eighteen, but this is all
24:57
Speaker 2: happening in like twenty sixteen.
25:00
Speaker 1: Because they vote in the twenty sixteen election at one point.
25:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the crazy part about this too, is all
25:05
Speaker 2: of this is unfolding as Trump is becoming president.
25:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of becomes about that, and not in
25:14
Speaker 1: like she talks about it in any way, but like,
25:16
Speaker 1: the idea that Trump is taking over the controls of
25:20
Speaker 1: this machinery is kind of underlying the entire film.
25:25
Speaker 2: Right, and that had to be especially tense when he
25:29
Speaker 2: won and to be in the middle of this fight
25:34
Speaker 2: with the government and now it's Trump's government.
25:36
Speaker 1: Oh no, absolutely so.
25:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, all the people she's teaming up with on this
25:41
Speaker 2: all have stories of being visited by the FBI recently.
25:46
Speaker 2: And she starts going door to door and getting these
25:49
Speaker 2: privacy waivers, which are exactly what they sound like. People
25:53
Speaker 2: sign them, and by signing it, they're waiving any right
25:56
Speaker 2: to privacy when it comes to the FBI releasing files
26:00
Speaker 2: about them to the public, which is actually very smart.
26:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very smart, but it's very scary. It's a
26:06
Speaker 1: smart way to get around that. But yeah, that's a
26:09
Speaker 1: lot to ask people. It's amazing that she was able
26:11
Speaker 1: to convince people to actually do that.
26:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a really interesting interview at one point. Also,
26:18
Speaker 2: she interviews a guy named Mark Flessner who is a
26:21
Speaker 2: former US assistant attorney, and she's grilling him about the
26:27
Speaker 2: fact that this investigation carried on for years and there
26:31
Speaker 2: were never any actual terrorism charges that came from it.
26:36
Speaker 2: And he kind of tiptoes around the question of whether
26:41
Speaker 2: this investigation was based on Islamophobia, and he says no,
26:46
Speaker 2: but when he says it, it seems like his soul
26:50
Speaker 2: is trying to kick the words back out of his throat. Yeah,
26:53
Speaker 2: it's such an interesting moment.
26:56
Speaker 1: Very obviously being evasive and disingenuous with a lot of
27:02
Speaker 1: his answers. It was really an interesting interview.
27:05
Speaker 2: The part where they go to court is really fascinating,
27:08
Speaker 2: and I don't want to spoil that for people. This
27:11
Speaker 2: documentary it's extremely well done. On top of it just
27:14
Speaker 2: being interesting information, it's just really well executed.
27:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, very very well made. Assia is an extremely compelling presenter,
27:25
Speaker 1: is a really good center for the film, and it's
27:28
Speaker 1: really well edited. I really liked it a lot.
27:30
Speaker 2: One moment I do want to talk about just a
27:33
Speaker 2: little bit because there's no way we can truly spoil
27:36
Speaker 2: this moment. But in the middle of all this, there's
27:39
Speaker 2: like this hostage situation, yeah, at the mosque in Bridgeview,
27:46
Speaker 2: And it happens right in the middle of filming this documentary,
27:50
Speaker 2: and everyone right when they're like, right when the whole
27:53
Speaker 2: community is at this mosque, the FBI or just FEDS
27:58
Speaker 2: show up and they're like, hey, there's a there's some
28:02
Speaker 2: robbers on the loose.
28:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, bank robbery. Uh oh, and.
28:05
Speaker 2: You all got to stay here. We have to lock
28:08
Speaker 2: you out of here while we go search for them
28:12
Speaker 2: and it's slowly revealed that there was no robbery. There
28:18
Speaker 2: were no bank robbers right on the loose.
28:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, they start getting contradicting like evidence, people like one
28:25
Speaker 1: of the cops gives them like a different answer for
28:27
Speaker 1: what's happening, right.
28:29
Speaker 2: And what pretty much the entire community suspects is that
28:34
Speaker 2: the FBI just wanted to be able to show up
28:37
Speaker 2: and search a few houses without getting a search warrant.
28:40
Speaker 2: Something like this provides them covered to do that, and
28:43
Speaker 2: they make a pretty compelling case.
28:45
Speaker 1: And I think it's Asia's mom who says, like, we've
28:49
Speaker 1: had bank robberies around here before, like this is an
28:52
Speaker 1: urban area, Like we've had bank robberies before, and they've
28:56
Speaker 1: never done anything like this for that before.
29:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. She points out that there were like seven different
29:03
Speaker 2: police departments all on the scene the moment it happened.
29:06
Speaker 2: It's like, no, that's that's a coordinated thing.
29:09
Speaker 1: It was really bizarre.
29:11
Speaker 2: And speaking about bizarre interactions between law enforcement and the community,
29:18
Speaker 2: how about that meeting with the FBI at the mosque.
29:23
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, that was very strange. That was an extremely
29:27
Speaker 1: strange scene all around, just with between the FBI and
29:31
Speaker 1: community leaders.
29:32
Speaker 2: They have most of the FBI. Their faces are blacked
29:37
Speaker 2: out and you can still see the tension on their faces.
29:41
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like it's palpable. The tension in that room
29:44
Speaker 2: is palpable. And they gaslight the shit out of her.
29:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of the community leaders do too, which
29:51
Speaker 1: I think feeds into the panopticon point that she's making
29:55
Speaker 1: at the beginning in the end where like these the
29:59
Speaker 1: lead in the community have even been frightened into believing
30:04
Speaker 1: that as long as they behave like midld citizens and
30:07
Speaker 1: don't question anything, then they will stop being investigated, which
30:13
Speaker 1: is flawed thinking obviously, but understandable, right.
30:17
Speaker 2: And the thing that they gaslight her over is a
30:21
Speaker 2: bunch of people in the area reported that the FBI
30:24
Speaker 2: showed up before Trump was elected and asked them about
30:28
Speaker 2: their political beliefs. And someone in the meeting is like, uh,
30:33
Speaker 2: the FBI doesn't do that.
30:35
Speaker 1: Like there is enough evidence that that happened that you
30:38
Speaker 1: can't just do a flat denial.
30:40
Speaker 2: Right, And they do. Yeah, And then you have to
30:43
Speaker 2: wonder like, does that guy know that they do this
30:47
Speaker 2: and just is willing to go out on a limb
30:50
Speaker 2: and lie in front of the whole community, or does
30:52
Speaker 2: he maybe not even know because I assume, I assume
30:55
Speaker 2: in a culture like that, you know the things that
30:58
Speaker 2: you're supposed to know or that they want you to know, right,
31:01
Speaker 2: And like then there's going to be the the foot
31:03
Speaker 2: soldiers who have to go out and do community relations
31:06
Speaker 2: at the local mosque, right and still have it in
31:10
Speaker 2: their head that the FBI is purer and only about justice,
31:14
Speaker 2: which of course they're not.
31:16
Speaker 1: No, they haven't been for a long time. If ever.
31:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, like we know coen Telpro was a thing, Like, yeah,
31:24
Speaker 2: I just I wonder at what point it is that
31:26
Speaker 2: people think these intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies cleaned
31:31
Speaker 2: up their act, right, Yeah, Like when do you think
31:35
Speaker 2: the CIA stopped being bad? Like what what what prompted that?
31:40
Speaker 1: How did they reform the organization that spied on MLK JR?
31:45
Speaker 2: Exactly?
31:47
Speaker 1: Like what were the actual steps of reform?
31:49
Speaker 2: Did someone defund the CIA at some point?
31:53
Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly, we probably peaky swear that we're not doing
31:56
Speaker 1: any more coups.
31:58
Speaker 2: Speaking of creepy government agents, Oh my god, this guy
32:02
Speaker 2: how about Robert Wright. Uh, he was the guy who
32:07
Speaker 2: headed Operation Vulgar Betrayal. And he gets word that ASSIA
32:12
Speaker 2: is looking into it, and this creeper shows up at
32:16
Speaker 2: her mom's house.
32:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, this whole section is easily the most terrifying part
32:23
Speaker 1: of the entire Uh. This is where it just starts
32:26
Speaker 1: to feel like something is going to go wrong in
32:28
Speaker 1: any moments.
32:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, because she ends up calling him, and the way
32:34
Speaker 2: he approaches this conversation, he's so casual and yeah he's giggling,
32:42
Speaker 2: but he's also being really threatening. Oh yeah, because at
32:46
Speaker 2: one point he starts naming off the other families that
32:49
Speaker 2: live on the street and he was like, Oh, I
32:51
Speaker 2: you all lived in the area, but I didn't know
32:53
Speaker 2: you were all around.
32:53
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, he drops the name of he drops the
32:57
Speaker 1: law's name. Who was you know, the guy that they
33:01
Speaker 1: quote unquote caught from the investigation, which to me was
33:04
Speaker 1: like really letting her like trying to subtly quote like
33:09
Speaker 1: letting her in on what he's doing. He's creepy in
33:12
Speaker 1: the videos from like twenty years ago, and it does
33:16
Speaker 1: not seem like he stopped being creepy in those twenty years.
33:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's somehow creepier over the phone than he Iss videos.
33:24
Speaker 1: That is one of the most disturbing phone calls, like
33:29
Speaker 1: real phone calls that I've seen on film before.
33:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can tell she's genuinely freaked out. And for
33:37
Speaker 2: good resourse.
33:38
Speaker 1: He's acting like a serial killer, he is.
33:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, like he didn't just go to her mom's house.
33:44
Speaker 2: He like kind of like no door to door through
33:47
Speaker 2: the neighborhood.
33:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, something really terrified and didn't igno, Like he did
33:52
Speaker 1: not identify himself in any way, like she had to
33:56
Speaker 1: like play, Like when she shows her mom the picture
34:00
Speaker 1: of him and is like, is this the guy? And
34:02
Speaker 1: like and her mom confirms that it was him. It's
34:05
Speaker 1: so chilling.
34:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, the scream she lets out when that happens is intense,
34:12
Speaker 2: and yeah, that would be terrifying, Like this guy, Like
34:15
Speaker 2: is this guy even in the FBI anymore?
34:18
Speaker 1: Right? It was really weird. What authority does he have
34:21
Speaker 1: to do any of this?
34:23
Speaker 2: It's just like an intelligence mercenary.
34:26
Speaker 1: God, so weird.
34:28
Speaker 2: It is very it's a very creepy moment, Like he's
34:32
Speaker 2: so he's so jovial on the phone, but he's also
34:36
Speaker 2: being very terrifying and that you only hear part of
34:40
Speaker 2: it because he refuses to let the call be recorded,
34:43
Speaker 2: which always a good sign of course.
34:45
Speaker 1: Of course, and he's very casual about that too. He's like, no,
34:48
Speaker 1: I don't want it to be recorded.
34:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then apparently he asked her if her mom
34:53
Speaker 2: was scared by him showing up, and when she said yes, he.
34:59
Speaker 1: Just laughed, literally a serial killer. Like honestly, it sounded
35:04
Speaker 1: like the fucking Snowman.
35:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was very creepy. And again, I
35:11
Speaker 2: don't want to spoil these parts of the documentary entirely,
35:15
Speaker 2: but even if you just google it, you'll know that
35:18
Speaker 2: they do sort of win in court. The Feds are
35:21
Speaker 2: forced to turn over thirty five hundred pages a month
35:25
Speaker 2: until all thirty three thousand plus are released, and she
35:30
Speaker 2: actually finds out that they have files on five hundred
35:33
Speaker 2: people in just in her community.
35:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I want to say, like, even if you know,
35:39
Speaker 1: like like with any great documentary, even if you know
35:42
Speaker 1: the real information, like you can't really spoil it because
35:45
Speaker 1: it is such a well made documentary that you're gonna
35:49
Speaker 1: be along for the ride when you watch it. But yeah,
35:53
Speaker 1: it was. It was wild how like the extent to which,
35:57
Speaker 1: like you already know it's going to be best with
35:59
Speaker 1: thirty three thousand and plus pages, but even still it's
36:03
Speaker 1: really breathtaking.
36:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, even the stuff she finds in the first few
36:07
Speaker 2: because she does get some of the documents by the
36:09
Speaker 2: time this documentary ends, and even some of the stuff
36:13
Speaker 2: she finds in those first few documents bananas.
36:16
Speaker 1: It's so creepy to watch people read these broadly redacted
36:23
Speaker 1: documents and still be able to recognize moments from their
36:27
Speaker 1: life being described in a very clinical, outsider way. Like
36:32
Speaker 1: that's a very surreal thing to go through.
36:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, just to know that a government intelligence agency is
36:40
Speaker 2: wielding that much influence in your life, and they really do.
36:45
Speaker 2: Because what they keep hitting on throughout this documentary is
36:49
Speaker 2: that what surveillance like this does, even if it doesn't
36:52
Speaker 2: uncover anything, there's this chilling effect in the community where
36:57
Speaker 2: now you're like, well, don't say bomb in public, don't
37:00
Speaker 2: speak Arabic really loud in public, right.
37:03
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And this is very much like the panopticon
37:07
Speaker 1: framing device that they that she has where she's talked. Yeah,
37:11
Speaker 1: like this whole idea that if you convince people that
37:15
Speaker 1: they're being watched in every moment, then that's going to
37:18
Speaker 1: change their behavior, whether or not they want to.
37:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's stossy shit, like that's what. Yeah, that's
37:26
Speaker 2: kind of how they operated is they're like you just
37:29
Speaker 2: never knew if the person you were talking to was
37:33
Speaker 2: one of them. So like they barely like they barely
37:36
Speaker 2: needed to really crack down on people because everyone was
37:39
Speaker 2: too scared to say shit anyway, And it seems like
37:43
Speaker 2: that kind of became the point of this operation because
37:47
Speaker 2: at some point you're not you're not catching anyone doing anything,
37:50
Speaker 2: so you're sort of just spinning your wheels unless you
37:53
Speaker 2: can scare that community into thinking you're always watching.
37:58
Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, Like that is definitely the main goal. And like,
38:02
Speaker 1: and that became even more clear after nine to eleven
38:05
Speaker 1: when these sorts of broad surveillance tactics went even wider
38:11
Speaker 1: and against broader Muslim communities and Arab American communities with
38:18
Speaker 1: like the no fly lists and those sorts of things.
38:21
Speaker 1: The extra security is just it's all just to make
38:25
Speaker 1: people conform and not hold these beliefs and communities that
38:34
Speaker 1: are considered by the authorities to be un American.
38:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's the American government doing that to
38:42
Speaker 2: American citizens.
38:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, as American as anyone.
38:46
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's on Amazon Prime. Even if you don't have
38:48
Speaker 2: Amazon Prime, you can probably runt it for cheap it's
38:51
Speaker 2: probably even on YouTube by this point, it's been out
38:54
Speaker 2: for a couple of years.
38:55
Speaker 1: Maybe, but I mean it's worth throwing are a couple bucks?
38:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely will. We'll link to where you can watch
39:02
Speaker 2: it on the website, so you don't even have to
39:06
Speaker 2: do any work to find it. I mean you have
39:09
Speaker 2: to go website. But yeah, and uh, beyond that, I
39:14
Speaker 2: think I think that's our episode, do we.
39:16
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think we missed anything. We did
39:20
Speaker 1: not talk about one of the best characters, which is
39:22
Speaker 1: her great dog who hangs out.
39:25
Speaker 2: I want to know that dog's name.
39:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, that dog rules. He hangs out while she's doing
39:30
Speaker 1: her research and seems very chill. He's a chill big dog.
39:35
Speaker 2: He's he's a naughty boy. At one point she's telling
39:38
Speaker 2: him get in bed and he gets up on the
39:39
Speaker 2: on the couch.
39:40
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it's true. He's That's where the real
39:43
Speaker 1: drama comes from.
39:46
Speaker 2: So yeah, watch this documentary. Definitely subscribe to the on
39:51
Speaker 2: pops network atwork, supercast dot tech, absolutely, or you can
39:57
Speaker 2: subscribe to just this show at conspiracy dot supercast dot
40:01
Speaker 2: tech and follow follow this show on Twitter at Conspira
40:06
Speaker 2: pops and Olivia What do you got to plug? Uh?
40:10
Speaker 1: You know, stay stay home, stay safe, stay isolated. You
40:15
Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at high there high dar.
40:19
Speaker 1: And that's it. I mean, you know, good protests, be active,
40:22
Speaker 1: you ship.
40:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, and wear a mask, please.
40:25
Speaker 1: Yes, and wear a mask.
40:26
Speaker 2: All right, let's get out of here. Olivia say goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Everybody,
40:32
Speaker 2: We love you.