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"The Lives of Others" · The Spy-Fi Guys

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Nothing is private. Nothing is sacred. We are the spy fi guys, and this is the lives of others. Welcome to the spy Fi Guys, where we cover spy Facts, spy fiction, and everything in between. I'm Christian.
• 0:22
  Speaker B: And I'm Zach.
• 0:23
  Speaker A: And today we have of the lives of others, our first German language movie, although I guess technically parts of the very beginning of Valkyrie was in German but not the entirety of it.
• 0:38
  Speaker B: Yes, that's correct. So, normally, we jump back and forth between movies that are based on a true story and movies that are completely fictional. This time we are making an exception. The lives of others is not based on a true story directly. However, it's so serious and dark and so different from what we normally do for our fictional movies that we're making an exception this time. So, yes, this movie came out in 2006, and it won an Oscar for Best Foreign Language Feature.
• 1:08
  Speaker A: I didn't know that. Okay, interesting. Now, had you seen this before?
• 1:12
  Speaker B: I had, yes.
• 1:13
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 1:14
  Speaker B: And I remember thinking it was overrated at the time. I heard it was, like, amazing. And I did not feel that way how I felt the second time around. Well, you're going to have to listen till the end to find out.
• 1:24
  Speaker A: With that, shall we go into our haikus and whatnot?
• 1:29
  Speaker B: Yeah. So, as always, I have brought a poetry synopsis of the movie before we get to the actual one. And here is the Haiku wiretapped writer. Sympathy costs, career. Thank you, HGW.
• 1:46
  Speaker A: All right. I like it. I like it.
• 1:48
  Speaker B: All right. And then here is the Limerick poetry synopsis. There once was a man from the Stasi who got a new job from his bossy. Krista's true to her love, but when push came to shove, there are lines you don't want to crossy.
• 2:06
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 2:07
  Speaker B: Just a little levity before we get into the very serious movie.
• 2:10
  Speaker A: Fair enough, fair enough.
• 2:12
  Speaker B: And then here is the real IMDb plot summary. In 1984, East Berlin, an agent of the secret police conducting surveillance on a writer and his lover finds himself becoming increasingly absorbed by their lives. All right, and I do think it's interesting that the movie takes place in 1984. Right? Like the. George.
• 2:33
  Speaker A: I was thinking about that. Yeah. So, yeah, we've got, like, a couple of title cards here. First one says, 1984, East Berlin. Glasnost is nowhere in sight. The population of the GDR. Which stands for what?
• 2:46
  Speaker B: The German Democratic Republic.
• 2:47
  Speaker A: Republic. That's what I figured out at the very end. Oh, that's what that means.
• 2:51
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:51
  Speaker A: The population of the GDR is kept under strict control by the Stasi, the East German secret police. Its force of 100,000 employees and 200,000 informers safeguards the dictatorship of the proletariat. Its declared goal? To know everything. So, first, before we get into the movie, let's think about those numbers. 100,000 people. Okay, here's a reference that we'll both get, I think that is the size. The capacity of the big house stadium in Michigan is 107 people. So imagine that place filled to the brim, and that's the entire workforce.
• 3:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's definitely quite mind boggling to think about it. I thought it was in this movie where it said something like a quarter or a third of the entire population were police informers, but that is not the case.
• 3:48
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 3:48
  Speaker B: Well, no, it wasn't said in this movie, so I don't know where it came from. And that statistic could be completely wrong. So I've always been curious about the idea of living in a place like this, where someone's always listening to you, and unlike your iPhone, they actually have malicious intent behind it, and you actually could get in trouble for what you say. And I was hoping the movie would capture that feeling. I don't feel like it did, but it definitely sets that right away.
• 4:15
  Speaker A: And then the other number, 200,000 informers. So the only thing that I've been at where there's close to 200,000 people is I've worked at a convention called CES, the Consumer Electronics show, which is in Vegas, that has had attendance of 182,000 people. On top of that, which is basically takes up all of Vegas. And just the amount of people there is ridiculous. So that many people as informers, just as a terms of scale, is crazy.
• 4:47
  Speaker B: Yeah. Not to mention you have to keep track of them all and write down what they have to say and figure.
• 4:52
  Speaker A: Out a very good bureaucracy for that.
• 4:55
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's communism for you.
• 4:59
  Speaker A: All right, so we start with an interrogation in November of 1984. There's a guy who's brought into the temporary detention center. Let me enunciate there. He gets interrogated. Apparently, his neighbor fled to the west, and they think he had help, but the guy denies it.
• 5:17
  Speaker B: So this takes place in Hawkenshenhausen, which is better known as the Stasi Prison. And you can go and visit it in East Berlin, which I did in 2020.
• 5:27
  Speaker A: Former East Berlin.
• 5:28
  Speaker B: Well, the east part of Berlin then, if you want to get technical. And I went to a room very much like this, and I remember they told us about how they would make people sit on their hands just like they do in the movie.
• 5:38
  Speaker A: Interesting. All right. So we flash forward sort of to an intercut of the interrogator whose name is Houtman. Gerd. Weissler. Weissler. Weissler.
• 5:49
  Speaker B: I think it's Weissler.
• 5:50
  Speaker A: Weissler. Thank you. Teaching a class and using the recording as a training at the Stasi college. And so we cut back to the interrogation. The man has been sleep deprived. The students are listening and one asks how long he's been sleep deprived. And he makes a point about how people who are telling the truth will give variations of answers after a while. Whereas if you're telling a lie, you have this one specific wording that you will keep using over and over again.
• 6:19
  Speaker B: Interesting. And I wonder how true it is. Well, Christian, have you read those books as like how to spot a liar that they sell in the spy museum?
• 6:27
  Speaker A: Briefly. I think I flipped through one of those. Yeah.
• 6:30
  Speaker B: I'm not sure I would want to know, to be honest.
• 6:34
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 6:35
  Speaker B: And also this part was interesting because there's a part where one of the students says, I think you're being too harsh on him or something. And Westler did a little down his name. Yeah. So I was hoping that would be filling the whole movie. And they do. They do it a lot. But that was a really good way to start. LIke one slip up and it's all over. I'd go into a gulag or something. He also says that an innocent person will get mad for being unjustly accused, whereas a guilty person will get quiet. But then I'm also kind of like, well, you live in a totalitarian state. Why would you get mad?
• 7:10
  Speaker A: That's a fair, like, yeah.
• 7:12
  Speaker B: My reaction would be more like, I'm screwed whether I was innocent or so.
• 7:17
  Speaker A: But the guy who's being interrogated eventually reveals who helped his neighbor. So it turns out that keep. I'm going to go with Weisler.
• 7:26
  Speaker B: Okay, sorry.
• 7:28
  Speaker A: So Weissler gets invited by his old friend and now Superior Lieutenant Colonel Grubitz to the theater. And Weisler develops infatuation with the main actress, Krista Marie, who we find out is dating the writer of the play gay York Draymond.
• 7:46
  Speaker B: OK, so Christian, here's my question for you. Do you think Weselr actually was in love with Krista?
• 7:54
  Speaker A: I think he was taken in by her. May not have been necessarily like, yeah.
• 8:01
  Speaker B: Certainly at this part he notices her, but then the whole rest of the movie, it's not sustainable.
• 8:07
  Speaker A: Okay. That's why I said infatuated. But not necessarily in a romantic sense, but more of like a fascination with her.
• 8:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, I could see that. I could see.
• 8:15
  Speaker A: So, yeah. Krista Marie, we find out, is dating the writer of the play, Gaorg Draymond. And Weisler is suspicious of Draymond and recommends that he be watched. And we go to Colonel Grubett's, talking to the party minister hemp, who is also infatuated with Krista Marie.
• 8:42
  Speaker B: Did it jump out to you right away that it was happening? Because this minister.
• 8:47
  Speaker A: No, no.
• 8:48
  Speaker B: Well, it's revealed later. But, yeah, you're right.
• 8:50
  Speaker A: Gerberitz passes off know instincts as his own and saying we should watch him. And he's like, this is why you're a rising star in the Stasi. We find out that Draymond is having a party. And so we cut over to there, where it's revealed that his former director, whose name is Jurska, has Western sympathies and is blacklisted. Although the party doesn't like to use that word.
• 9:17
  Speaker B: No, of course not.
• 9:19
  Speaker A: And yeah, we see here that party minister hemp is definitely into Christamarie. So we have Weisler starting to watch Draymond at first know, watching his comings and goings. But he also organizes a team to install bugs in the house and sets up a perch inside the attic.
• 9:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't realize it was directly above their heads. Yes, very close. But then I'm like, well, the technology at the time, they can't do wireless. Really? So they probably thought it was darn convenient that they live on the upper floor.
• 9:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. And one of their neighbors catches them, and he uses both carrot and stick here because he threatens him, but also says, you should send her a present.
• 10:08
  Speaker B: Well, so what's cool about this part is that as soon as he sees the neighbor, he knows who she is, how to leverage her, and just immediately, like, bam. So you can tell that he's done this kind of thing before, or he did his homework before they got there. I like to imagine where that he just. Yeah, yeah.
• 10:25
  Speaker A: So Draymond goes to visit his old director, Driska, and he tells him that there's hope for lifting his blacklisting from when he talks to minister hemp at the party.
• 10:38
  Speaker B: In that same party, somebody accuses somebody else of being part of the Stasi, but no one else.
• 10:42
  Speaker A: Not there. That's the other.
• 10:44
  Speaker B: There's just too many parties. They're always going to party.
• 10:47
  Speaker A: Then there's the party.
• 10:50
  Speaker B: Right?
• 10:51
  Speaker A: Yeah. Whistler has his surveillance post set up in the attic, and he's listening as they have a 40th birthday party for Draymond. And at the party, Jerska is sitting by himself. Here's the party where another guest houser, who is seemingly another writer or someone in the arts.
• 11:11
  Speaker B: Right.
• 11:11
  Speaker A: Accuses the director that replaced Jurska of being with the Stasi. So here's where that happens.
• 11:17
  Speaker B: Yeah, but nobody else in the party really seems to care.
• 11:21
  Speaker A: No. Someone hears about it because Weisler starts to write up his report about what's happening. And we find that Jerska gave Draymond sheet music for a Sonata for a good man. Weisler is continuing to write up his report and saying that they opened their gift and presumably they. WHat was this phrasing? I forget it here. Doesn't they say they have. Presumably they have intercourse.
• 11:51
  Speaker B: Hey, don't give away my favorite line. That's like the best part of the movie.
• 11:56
  Speaker A: But, yeah. As he's typing up, he gets relieved by Leve, who's the night shift.
• 12:00
  Speaker B: It does make me wonder. And I didn't look it up for the spy. Fact versus fiction is when police nowadays survey people, do they write down everything they do or just the things that are pertinent?
• 12:11
  Speaker A: I think it would probably depend on the person.
• 12:13
  Speaker B: That's fair.
• 12:14
  Speaker A: We go back to the Stasi college where Lieutenant Colonel Grubbitz has lunch with Weisler. And apparently, in his reports, one of the cars that he reported belonged to Minister Hemp, who was bringing Krista Marie home. And they cannot monitor top officials. So he removed it from the report and he tells Weisler now, nothing written anymore regarding hemp, just spoken. And that basically this is all because of hemp, that they're doing this.
• 12:45
  Speaker B: He's trying to knock out arrival. Do you also like the file room that we see at this part here?
• 12:50
  Speaker A: I don't remember it, actually.
• 12:51
  Speaker B: Yeah, there's just a room with files upon files upon files of all the people in the GDR, which reminded me of the prisoner with the automatic arm.
• 12:59
  Speaker A: Yeah, I don't remember that. Well, I remember that from the prisoner. I don't remember that from here.
• 13:04
  Speaker B: It was very brief.
• 13:06
  Speaker A: Okay. All right. Yeah. I must have looked away. Writing notes as I was. As that.
• 13:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 13:12
  Speaker A: But, yeah. So Gruber knows that this is going to be tricky. This could be good for their careers, but to Weisler, it's know for the good of the party. And he's kind of miffed that it's just know. Taking out a romantic rival.
• 13:26
  Speaker B: It's Chernobyl all over again. I know that we talked about it before. Have you not seen Chernobyl, the show yet? Oh, my. Great.
• 13:34
  Speaker A: I know, I know.
• 13:35
  Speaker B: The main point of it is that this is how the Communist system ran, was it was all about looking good and being loyal to the guy above you and not making anybody mad.
• 13:46
  Speaker A: Well, that's like, in. What's that? The man who saved the World.
• 13:49
  Speaker B: As it's even. It's like that. Mean. So communists are supposed to be, like, against the meritocracy and everyone's the same, but it's not. It's basically like how high up in the party you are. That's what matters, not how smart you are or anything like that.
• 14:04
  Speaker A: But we also get a scene where Grubitz messes with some junior officers in the cafeteria.
• 14:09
  Speaker B: This is like the. Do you think I'm funny? You think I'm funny from Goodfellas?
• 14:14
  Speaker A: Yep. Which I think I told you I only recently watched.
• 14:18
  Speaker B: Yeah. Didn't you say you've been watching Scorsese movies or was that.
• 14:22
  Speaker A: I was okay. Yeah, but, yeah, it's exactly like that. Yeah.
• 14:26
  Speaker B: Did you really think the guy was in trouble at first? The young guy?
• 14:30
  Speaker A: At first, no, but just like in Goodfellows. At first, no, but then, yes, but then it came back around.
• 14:39
  Speaker B: Actually, do you remember? We see him later?
• 14:42
  Speaker A: No. Oh, we see one of the other people.
• 14:44
  Speaker B: We'll talk about it.
• 14:45
  Speaker A: All right. So back at Draymond's apartment, Weisler continues to monitor Draymond and Krista Marie. We see Krista Marie getting picked up on the street by hemp.
• 14:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. She is doing her fur hat. It's like her giant fur.
• 15:00
  Speaker A: Yep. And they have sex in the backseat of the car with Christmas pretty unwillingly participating.
• 15:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's a total too Harvey Weinstein kind of.
• 15:12
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And then she gets dropped off at Draymond's apartment. And here's what I was wondering. So someone is ringing the bell for Draymond. And he buzzes him, but they keep ringing it.
• 15:24
  Speaker B: So that was Weiesler who did that.
• 15:26
  Speaker A: Was it?
• 15:27
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So he had some kind of setup where when we.
• 15:30
  Speaker A: I thought it was, but I was like. I didn't quite catch it.
• 15:33
  Speaker B: Yeah. It goes from surveillance to operation.
• 15:35
  Speaker A: So he's already, like, meddling in their relationship, and he's doing what the boss.
• 15:40
  Speaker B: Wanted him to do, which is to try to break them up because he calls. This part was really good. He calls Draymond over to the door. So Draymond sees Krista getting out of the car with the minister.
• 15:51
  Speaker A: Okay, see that I didn't connect that. I didn't realize that's what he was doing there. But that makes sense now. Okay.
• 15:57
  Speaker B: Yeah. And then my note here is, everyone is. Yeah.
• 16:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's also unclear if Draymond knows exactly what's going on.
• 16:08
  Speaker B: Right.
• 16:09
  Speaker A: But there's enough to know who's going. Yeah. Where she's going and everything. And then leve again comes to relieve Weisler as he's listening to Krista Marie and Draymond in, like, a very tender moment.
• 16:22
  Speaker B: So, yeah, this is the part where the prostitute comes to visit. Visit Weisler as well. So this part, what I was thinking here was, I can see why Weissler or Weissler, whatever, gets so into.
• 16:33
  Speaker A: Pick one. Yeah.
• 16:35
  Speaker B: Why he's so into them, the couple, Draymond and Krista. Because Dreamer, especially, he's, like, the total opposite of Weiesler. He plays soccer with kids. He has a woman who loves him. He has a job that he cares about. He has the respect and admiration of his peers. And there's all this love, as opposed to, like, sterile apartment where there's nothing. He doesn't even really seem to have any friends, people he gets along with at work. And he's very closed off.
• 17:08
  Speaker A: Closed off and lonely is what it is. That's what that part strikes home to me, is that just the emptiness of his place and then the fact that he even asks the prostitute to stay because he just wants some companionship. And she's like, nope, I got another appointment in half an hour.
• 17:27
  Speaker B: Yeah. Which I don't really understand why Wiesler was so lonely. Because he doesn't seem, like, weird or guess I wonder if everyone's afraid of him because of his job, if they.
• 17:38
  Speaker A: Know what his job. Yeah.
• 17:40
  Speaker B: I would suspect that might be the reason. Or maybe he just knows too much about everybody again because of his job.
• 17:47
  Speaker A: So we go back to Draymond's apartment, where it's revealed that one of their friends, Hauser, the one who spoke up at the party, now has a travel ban enacted, which was that directly because of Weiesler's report, do you think? Or did someone else talk about of what?
• 18:08
  Speaker B: Certainly because of what he said at the party. The question of who told the party about the party, that remains to be seen or not. I also wanted to say, I also want to say, very briefly, I like Whistler's.
• 18:24
  Speaker A: Jacket. I'm like, where can I get that jacket?
• 18:27
  Speaker B: It looks like it's right out of Star Trek.
• 18:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. So I also enjoy here, uh, Draymond can't find his book on Bricked, and we find out it's because Weiesler is reading it.
• 18:40
  Speaker B: Yeah. He breaks into their house at one point. And walks around very creepily.
• 18:44
  Speaker A: A bit more on the sad note. Draymond gets a call that Jerska hung himself. His old director hanged himself. Hanged. Thank you.
• 18:54
  Speaker B: I mean, everybody gets that wrong.
• 18:56
  Speaker A: Draymond goes over to the piano to play the shoot music, the sheet music that Jerska gave him, actually. I don't know. Is this in Wiesler's apartment, or is this in Draymond's apartment when they're in the elevator?
• 19:08
  Speaker B: I think it's. I really like this.
• 19:11
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 19:12
  Speaker B: The part with the kid, you mean?
• 19:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. So the kid asks if he's really with the Stasi, and he's like, what do you know about the stasis? My dad says they're bad men who put men in prison. He's about to ask, what's your dad's name? But he stops himself. He said, what's the name of your ball?
• 19:27
  Speaker B: Yeah. So that shows that he's already starting to change. Like, Draymond's starting to affect him and making him a better person. And by a better person, I mean less complicit with the regime of.
• 19:39
  Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So back at the Stasi college, Hemp is in a car with Grubbitz, and he's disappointed. The lack of progress in finding anything on Draymond. So Hemp has his driver monitor Krista Marie anytime she's not with him. And Griffiths updates Weisler about the canceled visa. Reminds Weiesler that it could be bad for both of them if this doesn't work.
• 20:07
  Speaker B: Know, if Wesler is, in fact, in love with Krista, then this movie has a love quadrangle or love rectangle, maybe, or mean.
• 20:15
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:16
  Speaker B: Everyone wants a piece of Krista, apparently.
• 20:21
  Speaker A: So back to Draymond's apartment. Draymond is talking to Krista Marie about his fears. He's lost the will to write. Krista Marie is going to see but and know asks her not to go. Makes it clear that he knows and that he also knows about her secret.
• 20:42
  Speaker B: This whole damn system is out of order.
• 20:44
  Speaker A: Yeah. And to have more confidence in herself, she comes back at him saying that they're both stuck in this system and that he gets into bed, metaphorically with hemp as well, if not physically. And the party decides what they can and can't do. And she doesn't want to end up like Driska.
• 21:05
  Speaker B: So I did think it was interesting how the movie took the turn of having it be political, because I wasn't actually expecting that. I thought the way it was going.
• 21:14
  Speaker A: To go, movie set, in East Germany, how would it not be political?
• 21:18
  Speaker B: Well, because I thought it was going to be more about the relationship between the three characters and Wiesler getting too involved in their ordinary lives, not like political activist lives. But it didn't turn out that.
• 21:33
  Speaker A: As just like Weiesler or just like us, Weiesler is getting drawn into the drama.
• 21:39
  Speaker B: Right.
• 21:39
  Speaker A: But right at a know, pivotal moment, he gets interrupted again by leve trying to relieve him.
• 21:45
  Speaker B: Yeah. He's like, oh, this is the best part. So my note about here is they go drinking again. And I said to myself, why do they keep drinking vodka? They're Germans, not Russians.
• 21:58
  Speaker A: Well, anyways, but more importantly. So Weasley goes to the bar nearby to drink some vodka, and Krista Marie comes in and he goes up to actually talk to her, which is like, probably rule number, you know, talk to the person you're surveilling.
• 22:13
  Speaker B: Certainly, he's not supposed to be there in the first place. He's totally acting out of line. And I also like how he fanboys over know some things don't change.
• 22:21
  Speaker A: He says that he saw her on stage and that a lot of people love her, which is very true.
• 22:28
  Speaker B: Right.
• 22:29
  Speaker A: But that she's more herself when she's on the stage. And he tries to convince her not to go without letting on that he knows. Back in Draymond's apartment the next day, Weasler reads Levee's report when he arrives, and it's revealed that Krista Marie came back after talking with Weiesler and they reconciled. So I'm wondering, Krista Marie and Draymond.
• 22:55
  Speaker B: Which makes you wonder, is that good for Wiesler or not? It's certainly not good for his career.
• 23:01
  Speaker A: It's not good for his career. But I don't think it's necessarily romantic interest. I think it's just a fascination with them because he's getting so drawn into their lives that he wants them to be happy as a. Yeah. Yeah. So we're at a graveyard, and Draymond goes to Jerska's funeral. And we hear this sort of speech about suicides in East Germany. And it's a. As a voiceover, and it's apparently an article that Jurska's. Not Jerska, that Draymond's writing. How could Jerska write it? He's dead.
• 23:35
  Speaker B: Right.
• 23:36
  Speaker A: So he goes over to Hauser's apartment. Hauser is the guy who got what you call, who had the travel ban on him. But Hauser is suspicious that it's bugged. He turns up a record player with music real loud to try know, drown out what they're like.
• 23:55
  Speaker B: This is what I was expecting the movie to be. Was like everyone always on guard.
• 23:58
  Speaker A: Surveillance.
• 23:59
  Speaker B: Yeah, like, all the time and aware of it.
• 24:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. So they say, okay, why don't we go over to place? But instead they go out to a park where Dreman shows Hauser the article. As they're walking around, we find out apparently, Krista Marie doesn't know about it. Hauser likes the idea of this article, but it needs to be published anonymous. And they're also not sure if Draymond's place is clean. But he has an idea of how to check if the place is clean, if there are no bugs in it.
• 24:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, I like, like, this is what you tune into this for.
• 24:36
  Speaker A: So Draymond, Hauser and a couple other. Oh, Hauser's uncle. And then the other writer, whose name is. I have it somewhere. Well, other guy who, once I get to him in my notes, later we'll find out his name. Are discussing a potential defection, including about hiding someone under seat cushions. Weisler overhears their plans and he stands. And he goes over to look up the number of the border that they're attempting to cross and even calls it, but then hangs up.
• 25:16
  Speaker B: Yes. So close. And now he's complicit, too.
• 25:20
  Speaker A: He's like, just this once, my friend, is what he said.
• 25:23
  Speaker B: Stop stealing all my favorite lines.
• 25:26
  Speaker A: The funny thing is, I don't even have them written down in here. I'm just like. I just remember them.
• 25:30
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 25:30
  Speaker A: Very nice.
• 25:31
  Speaker B: When did you watch the movie?
• 25:34
  Speaker A: Today. Earlier today.
• 25:35
  Speaker B: I watched it over the weekend. Yeah. So I needed to write that stuff down. So I guess this makes you wonder. I guess trying to leave via the wall isn't always a death sentence.
• 25:44
  Speaker A: Like, immediately if you have papers to get you across? Yes.
• 25:50
  Speaker B: Yeah. But I think the idea was if they were being wiretapped, then the wiretapper would inform the border police, and then it would stop them. But then it's like, I guess the consequences aren't that bad.
• 26:03
  Speaker A: They're willing to do it. Well, here's the thing, though. I don't know if they were actually. What I think is they weren't actually sneaking anyone across.
• 26:14
  Speaker B: They were going to search the car. It was going to be empty.
• 26:16
  Speaker A: Exactly. Who else would it like? They had the two of them in there.
• 26:22
  Speaker B: Yeah. Why put anybody at risk if you don't have point?
• 26:25
  Speaker A: Yeah. So I think that's what their plan was. And then Weisler listens as Draymond gets a call from Hauser saying that the plan worked and that they got across the border with no security search. So that's what they were really trying to tempt, is a E security search, rather than actually sneaking someone across. How I interpreted that, the COVID for them is that Hauser and Draymond and the other guy, whose name I have later on are all writing a play together. And Weissler decides he's going to admit all of this from his report because he doesn't want to show that he's complicit.
• 27:04
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 27:05
  Speaker A: And then the very next day, Weissler comes in, and Leve has him listen as they're discussing the suicide numbers as part of the. As you know, he hears that Hauser was there. He realizes that Hauser didn't actually go to the west, and he decides again to cover for them and tells Levitt that they're writing a play. And Levitt's like, that doesn't sound like any play I've ever heard.
• 27:33
  Speaker B: Is this the part where they get the untraceable typewriter as so.
• 27:38
  Speaker A: Well, before that, Krista comes in and they keep up that cover that they're writing a play so that she's not. Yes. And they give Draymond a new typewriter because the Stasi could identify any other typewriter by their typeface. But this is one is type that no one in East Germany has.
• 27:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. Isn't it red type as?
• 28:00
  Speaker A: No, it's the. They could only find red ink ribbons for this typewriter.
• 28:07
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 28:08
  Speaker A: And here's the clip that I'd seen before, but I didn't realize it was from this movie. I'd seen it in the Spy museum and their license to thrill gallery.
• 28:16
  Speaker B: Yep. I saw it there. Yeah.
• 28:18
  Speaker A: Where the writers pop some champagne and the cork hits one of the bugs. He hears it in his earphones.
• 28:24
  Speaker B: Yeah. Weissler has, like, a reaction. Did it hit one of the bugs, or was it just a certain loud noise that he wasn't?
• 28:30
  Speaker A: I think it hit one of the bugs because it hit, like, right near the light switch.
• 28:33
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 28:35
  Speaker A: Back at Stasi HQ, Weisler goes to see Grubbitz. He's reading an analysis of artists that someone at the college had written as, like, a doctoral thesis or something to that effect. He's telling Grubbitz all about. He's, like, analyzing Draymond, that with the five different types of artists, they don't really break down what they are. They just say that Draymond is type four.
• 29:01
  Speaker B: Yeah. And it's certainly kind of some personalities, though, I feel like it wouldn't just be artists. It would be everyone would have one of those personalities.
• 29:10
  Speaker A: And Draymond has his report with him about what they're doing, and he's deciding what to do with it. As Grubbitz is talking, he decides that he's going to tell Grubbitz that they don't need to run the surveillance day and night shifts anymore with such an uncertain case is what he calls it. But they just need to be more flexible. And he doesn't want levy on it anymore. He wants to run the thing full time.
• 29:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of like a fictional, I guess this is a fictional movie, too, where the bad guy who's turning sides is like, I'll handle it myself. Report directly to me.
• 29:48
  Speaker A: So Draymond, at his apartment, continues to workshop the article, while Weissler continues to report that they are working on a play. SO he, like, alters the report, saying they're struggling with writing this and this.
• 30:00
  Speaker B: Yeah, he's getting more involved.
• 30:01
  Speaker A: And Krista Marie goes to the dentist, and Hemp's driver is watching for her. And in bed later, tell tries to tell Krista Marie what they're really writing, what she says she doesn't need to know.
• 30:15
  Speaker B: Right.
• 30:16
  Speaker A: And here's where we get some more spy stuff, where Draymond hands off the article to someone to carry it across the border. In the hidden pocket of a suitcase, which I liked like it is a false bottom of the suitcase, you get.
• 30:29
  Speaker B: Some spy gadgets that just. The typewriter itself. Yeah.
• 30:33
  Speaker A: And then later, Dreamer and Kristen Marie are watching TV when the article is reported on. On, like, the state TV.
• 30:41
  Speaker B: Yeah. So it made it out and it embarrassed the GDR. Someone's heads are going to roll somewhere.
• 30:47
  Speaker A: Speaking of, Grubbitz is on the phone with a very angry party official. I presume this is hemp, but I couldn't actually pick out from the voice if it was or wasn't.
• 30:57
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 30:57
  Speaker A: Somebody, but Grebbed is trying to tell him that they have a copy of the original so they can identify the typeface, and then that'll help them determine who wrote it.
• 31:09
  Speaker B: Did you like this nerdy typeface expert?
• 31:11
  Speaker A: I did like this guy because I have some friends who are very into fonts, so I'm like, if we had lived in this world, those would be my friends.
• 31:21
  Speaker B: So I also liked how the guy can handle the tough questions. He was like, bam, ready to go. He really knows.
• 31:29
  Speaker A: He may have been nerdy, but he was very knowledgeable about what I guess which makes sense.
• 31:33
  Speaker B: And then they're like, okay, get out of here.
• 31:34
  Speaker A: He just walks away. But, yeah. So he immediately knows all the three suspects, who are all actually. The three people who are actually involved. He knows exactly what kind of typewriters they use or how they use it. Like one says, writes everything by hand first, and then types it up.
• 31:52
  Speaker B: Yeah. And he's like, this guy writes and he uses a blah blah blah kind of typewriter with blah blah blah kind of thing, et cetera.
• 31:59
  Speaker A: But yeah. None of the suspects use this kind of typewriter that was written on, and there are none registered in the GDR. And Grubitz asks how big it is and gives a measurement. So it would be about easy to smuggle into the GDR as A. So then Grubitz has an idea and he goes. Has his secretary contact wise.
• 32:26
  Speaker B: Yeah. And there's a cool spy moment here where Riesler almost gets caught in a lie. He mentions the article. And then the boss is like, well, how'd you know about the article?
• 32:37
  Speaker A: And he makes up that know they talked about.
• 32:40
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 32:40
  Speaker A: Talks about it on the.
• 32:43
  Speaker B: But, yeah. But he's getting more and more pulled.
• 32:46
  Speaker A: Across the COVID that the editor for the newspaper, Des Spiegel, was at the apartment.
• 32:53
  Speaker B: Yeah. So he's totally complicit now. And I was like, this is interesting. What's going to happen?
• 32:58
  Speaker A: But Grubbit senses that a writer is behind all of this. So he tells Wiesler to keep his ears open. Eyes and ears. Yeah. So, back at Stasi HQ, Grubbitz gets into a car with hemp. He tells Grubbitz where Krista Marie gets her illegal medicine for her illness, which is from the dentist.
• 33:19
  Speaker B: So basically, he's turning her.
• 33:22
  Speaker A: And he tells Grubbitz that he never wants to see her on a German stage again.
• 33:28
  Speaker B: So why do you think he's going after her? Just because she rejected him. But it was like half an hour and I forgot about.
• 33:38
  Speaker A: Stopped making her regular.
• 33:42
  Speaker B: Yeah. I liked it. Because it's like he doesn't forget. He's like a powerful enemy who can be patient and he can wait half the movie to get his revenge.
• 33:54
  Speaker A: Or a quarter of the movie.
• 33:56
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 33:58
  Speaker A: Anyway, so Krista Marie is at the dentist again. And as she's there getting her medicine. So here's my question. What do you think her illness was?
• 34:06
  Speaker B: So, I suspected that it was antidepressants, because she lives in a communist society. But they never actually said it. Right.
• 34:13
  Speaker A: That would make sense, actually. Yeah.
• 34:17
  Speaker B: Because if it was like a normal like, why couldn't she just get normal medication for it? Right.
• 34:24
  Speaker A: So she's taken by the Stasi from the dentist's office, and she's brought to Grubbitz to be interrogated, and she tries to bargain her way out. She says she could find a lot on artists, but that doesn't work for her. She tries to offer her body, but that also doesn't work.
• 34:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, the guy's very creepy because he's like, normally I'd say sure, but not this time.
• 34:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, he. Grubbit says that there's no way to save herself. Except.
• 34:52
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 34:53
  Speaker A: Does she know anything about the article?
• 34:55
  Speaker B: But she does.
• 34:56
  Speaker A: She does, and she laughs. It's more of kind of like a hysterical laugh.
• 35:01
  Speaker B: Right.
• 35:02
  Speaker A: So back in Draymond's apartment, Draymond is in bed when the Stasi come in. And Grubbit comes to the door and waves up at the camera, where it's.
• 35:13
  Speaker B: Like a horror movie like moment. Right, where there's a creepy wave at the camera because he knows Weaseler's watching.
• 35:18
  Speaker A: Yeah. Weaselr panics. Draymond goes to check on the hiding place for the typewriter, which is, like, underneath a floorboard in, like, a door. You know, once he checks that, it's all right. Draymond lets them. Weisler, like, can only hear what's going on, so he has to interpret whatever everything is happening, the saucy search everywhere. Cabinets, seat cushions, nothing to be found.
• 35:45
  Speaker B: So Krista, I guess she revealed a little bit. But she didn't reveal the hiding place, right?
• 35:50
  Speaker A: Yeah. So the Stasi leave, and then Grubbitz calls Weisler and tells him to be at HQ at 09:00 a.m. Or not HQ at the Stasi prison at 09:00 a.m.
• 36:03
  Speaker B: So it's like, yeah, he's in trouble and something's going to happen.
• 36:06
  Speaker A: So Hauser tells Draymond that the Stasi got Krista Marie and that she ratted on him. But Draymond knows that Krista Marie knows where the hiding space is. So she didn't tell them everything.
• 36:19
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 36:20
  Speaker A: So when Weaseler gets to the Stasi prison, he reports in and is told to go to interrogation Room 76, which immediately raises his caggles.
• 36:29
  Speaker B: Well, sure. It's also a nice contrast dichotomy from the beginning of the movie where he's the one doing interrogation. Yeah.
• 36:38
  Speaker A: So Weaselr sits down and sees Grubbitz and asks what the inspection was all about. Grubbit says that Draymond wrote the article, and he's like, says who? And they go over to Christmarie's cell where he shows her. MArie shows him. But. And Grubbitz can't believe that Weisler was this sloppy and missed all of this. So last chance. You can interrogate. I know you're a good interrogator. So interrogate her and find out something.
• 37:14
  Speaker B: Right.
• 37:14
  Speaker A: So Grubbitz is watching on the other side of one way glass, and Krista Marie is brought in. And he has her back towards her as she enters. And as he's talking, he turns around. She doesn't appear to recognize him.
• 37:30
  Speaker B: Yeah, I was wondering if she would, but why would she. Yeah, she meets a lot of fans.
• 37:34
  Speaker A: Yeah. And also she was seemingly bit drunk and distracted. Yeah. He tells her that in nine and a half hours, the audience will be told that she can't appear on stage due to health reasons. And that will be her last mention in the world of theater. Unless she reveals where the typewriter is.
• 37:54
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 37:55
  Speaker A: And he says that Draymond will never find out. And here's what's interesting. He starts using words that are very similar to what he said at the bar, talking about the audience and remember your audience and those phrases. In my mind, she starts to recognize him but doesn't quite know. Yeah. Sounds very familiar.
• 38:22
  Speaker B: But do you think by the audience he meant, like, the people listening in on the other.
• 38:31
  Speaker A: So she eventually tells him where the typewriter is as she gets released. And right as she gets released, Grubbitz asks someone to send Weisler over, but is told that Weisler has already left. Back at Draymond's apartment, Draymond goes home after a walk. He's walking and talking with Hauser. And Weisler is leaving just as he hides right behind the door, basically. As Draymond arrives.
• 39:02
  Speaker B: Yeah. Doesn't he have the typewriter in his hand, too? This part was pretty.
• 39:05
  Speaker A: I didn't even notice that.
• 39:06
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, he.
• 39:07
  Speaker A: Oh, I didn't catch that. I was just watching him. I didn't even notice that was in his. Interesting. Okay, that if I rewatch that, I have to look for that. Watches from a car as Krista Marie arrives. And she tells Draymond that she was with a friend, like, out in the country where they had no water and she desperately needs a shower.
• 39:28
  Speaker B: Right.
• 39:29
  Speaker A: And Weisler meets with Grubbitz as the Stasi and arrive again.
• 39:36
  Speaker B: They're like, were we just here?
• 39:39
  Speaker A: And Draymond tries to talk to Krista Marie as she's showering, but she pretends not to hear him.
• 39:45
  Speaker B: It just wouldn't be a European movie without additional nudity.
• 39:51
  Speaker A: So Grubbitz and the Stasi arrive at the door to inspect again. They look around briefly at other places first, but then Grubbitz goes over to the hiding space, and Marie comes out of the bathroom at that point and looks real guilty. And Draymond realizes that Christmarie told them and she runs out the door. Sassy opened the hiding spot to find nothing.
• 40:20
  Speaker B: Okay, so what was your reaction when they found nothing? Because you didn't notice that Weaselr had a typewriter.
• 40:27
  Speaker A: I had an idea, though. Once I saw Weaselr in the door, I knew he was doing something right. And then I immediately predicted where the rest of that, like, the rest of this scene was going to go.
• 40:38
  Speaker B: Okay, so for you is a little bit more subtle. They didn't need to show you exactly.
• 40:41
  Speaker A: What happened for me without seeing it in his hand.
• 40:45
  Speaker B: There's also a little bit of dramatic irony, since the audience knows what happened, the characters don't.
• 40:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, but not knowing that the typewriter was not in the hiding space, Krista Marie runs out the door and throws herself in front of a truck.
• 41:03
  Speaker B: Yeah. So this happened in a movie called the Debt, which is a fictional version of Operation Finale, which is a movie.
• 41:13
  Speaker A: Is it really?
• 41:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's like the same story, except.
• 41:17
  Speaker A: Really, because that one's got some other people in it. Right?
• 41:21
  Speaker B: Helen Mirren.
• 41:22
  Speaker A: That's the one, yeah.
• 41:23
  Speaker B: There's an American version and an Israeli version. And the Israeli version, that's the one where the guy jumps in front of a truck to kill himself. Maybe the American one, too, but. Yeah, but the story is the same. They go to Argentina and kidnap a fictional Nazi.
• 41:37
  Speaker A: Really?
• 41:38
  Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe we could cover it at some point. There's a part where he escapes and one of the Masad agents is sleeping, and then she wakes up to see him, like, standing over her with a cleaver, like Freddy Krueger or love.
• 41:50
  Speaker A: I would love to cover that because, like, had that on my list as something I've wanted to have done it.
• 41:57
  Speaker B: With Operation Finale since it's like we always.
• 41:59
  Speaker A: Anyway, so back to this movie. And Kristen Marie throwing herself in front of the truck. So Weissler goes over to her and she's like, I was too. Couldn't, you know, do what needs to be done. And he's like, but you didn't need to do anything. He's about to say, I moved the. And then he trails off as Draymond arrives and Kristen Marie dies in his arms.
• 42:25
  Speaker B: So that's like dramatic irony. Krista didn't know the typewriter got moved, so she didn't need to kill, which.
• 42:33
  Speaker A: Like, as soon as I saw Weissler in the building and then Christmas comes out. Oh, I know where this is going.
• 42:41
  Speaker B: I did not know where it was.
• 42:43
  Speaker A: I had a feeling she's going to think and then she's going to try to kill herself or something. And so when I saw her come out, I was like, oh, there's a truck. Oh, no. But at this moment, Grubbitz comes over and says that the operation is complete and tells Draymond very perfunctually that they must have gotten a bad tip.
• 43:07
  Speaker B: Nice use of perfunctily.
• 43:09
  Speaker A: Thank you. So Grubbitz and Weisler drive off together. Weisler is told that his career is over and that even if he was very careful to cover his tracks, he's going to be put in a cellar, steam opening letters for the next 20 years.
• 43:24
  Speaker B: Okay, so this part, I don't really buy it.
• 43:28
  Speaker A: Oh, that he let him get away.
• 43:30
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, first of all, that they actually needed proof in order to put him in a gulag, which I don't actually believe. And then second, there's enough circumstantial evidence that in a totalitarian society like this one, it's enough to put him away because who else could have known about the typewriter and got there in time to do it? He's just like so obvious. Interrogation runs and he sprints out the door, races over to the apartment and, come on.
• 44:01
  Speaker A: It's because they basically came up in the Stasi together and he was giving his friend like this last out as a way of avoiding the gulag, but still will be shoved in a broom closet for the next 20 years.
• 44:12
  Speaker B: So there is a little bit of loyalty to his friend, I think so.
• 44:15
  Speaker A: I think that's what, that's my read on it because they are still friendly even after all of that.
• 44:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, I like that explanation. That's good, too.
• 44:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. But you also see the newspaper next to Weisler where it says Gorbachev is elected as the leader of the Soviet Union, which, of course, we know what's coming after that.
• 44:40
  Speaker B: Yeah, the Times change. It's not going to be 20 years, as it turns out.
• 44:44
  Speaker A: No. We go over to department M. Four years and seven months later, Weissler is steam opening letters. And I like how they do this because this is how you would be steam opening letters and coworkers. One of his coworkers is listening to the radio and tells him the wall is coming down. They listen on the radio, and once after he hears the announcement, Weisler gets up and leaves, and so do his coworkers.
• 45:11
  Speaker B: So one of these coworkers is Mr. Funny man from before.
• 45:15
  Speaker A: That's funny.
• 45:17
  Speaker B: So I guess his big mouth might not have got him in trouble right then and there, but it eventually sunk his career. Yes.
• 45:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. But it doesn't really matter because the walls down, and it's a new Germany now.
• 45:35
  Speaker B: So I do think it's interesting that. So if I had made the movie, I would have shown. And we'll talk about this later. I would have shown the Stasi, like, destroying documents, as they famously did.
• 45:46
  Speaker A: Okay, I didn't know about that.
• 45:48
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's in the spy museum. We can look into it later. But they famously were, like, trying to destroy documents. But there's, like, millions of documents. There's no way they could have done it all. But that was happening. Like, wall. The wall was coming down.
• 46:02
  Speaker A: Right. But I think collapsing. For this story, though, we're not focused really on the Stasi. We're focused on Weisler, really, and what's happening with him.
• 46:10
  Speaker B: Yeah. And of know, it's informative that he doesn't get in on that, even though he works for the Stasi. Right.
• 46:16
  Speaker A: Well, he works for it in the least stance now, because he's literally just been steam opening letters for the last.
• 46:23
  Speaker B: Four years after betraying. Yeah.
• 46:25
  Speaker A: Yeah. So we go to two years later, back at that same theater where Draymond is watching the play, which is the same play from the very beginning, which Krista Marie had starred in. Right. When it comes to one of her big speeches, Draymond leaves because he's overcome with emotion. And we see outside is hemp, Minister Hemp as well, who apparently couldn't stand to watch it because it reminded him of Christopher Marie.
• 46:58
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 46:59
  Speaker A: Even though this whole thing was his.
• 47:03
  Speaker B: You know, it's complicated, you might say.
• 47:05
  Speaker A: We find out that Draymond actually hasn't written anything since the Wall. You know, what is there to write in this new Germany?
• 47:14
  Speaker B: Yes. I thought this was interesting.
• 47:20
  Speaker A: Because he had all the inspiration to write when he was trying to rail against the regime. But now that there is no regime, what does he write about?
• 47:31
  Speaker B: Right. I mean, like, Germany itself, he had to come up with a new identity.
• 47:37
  Speaker A: And then here's where I was interested, where Draymond asks, why was he never under surveillance? Everyone else was. Why not me? But then what's his name? Hemp tells him that he was under full surveillance, every inch of his apartment. Was bugged, and he's even told to look behind the light switches.
• 47:57
  Speaker B: Why do you think the minister told Draymond that?
• 48:01
  Speaker A: Because there was no consequence to telling him now.
• 48:06
  Speaker B: I also thought it was, like, to lord it over him, a little show off that he knew something about Draymond that Draymond didn't. I'm also kind of amazed that he's still living in the same.
• 48:19
  Speaker A: That if you have a place, especially in East Germany, apartments are expensive. Yeah. And hard to come know. Was it here? There was some point where I saw the only glimpse of a Trabant. Surprisingly, there was one in. As there's either here or in the very next scene where you see a Trabant, like, on the road. It's like, hey, a trabby.
• 48:44
  Speaker B: Nice.
• 48:45
  Speaker A: But, yeah. Back at his apartment, he looks around, he looks behind the light switches and finds all of the Wires, and he's, like, pulling them up to see where they go. And there's all this vast complexity of wires all pulled out.
• 48:58
  Speaker B: I feel like if this were a different movie, then he would be doing this while they're still surveying him, and then it would lead to a cross country manhunt with helicopters and stuff.
• 49:10
  Speaker A: He later goes to the research site and memorial for the Stasi, I assume. Well, this is what the caption, like the translation says for the sign. Research site and Memorial.
• 49:25
  Speaker B: Maybe it's to all the people of Stasi killed.
• 49:28
  Speaker A: Maybe. Well, not yet. Memorial is not for the Stasi, but research.
• 49:32
  Speaker B: I mean, it might be. It might have been put out by the Soviet authorities, and then we just left it there.
• 49:39
  Speaker A: But it's a place where you can know Freedom of Information act, any files before there was a Freedom of Information act, obviously. So he goes to look for all the files on himself, and they're brought on this giant cart, and Draymond starts reading Operation Laszlo. And it's like all of the surveillance on him. So it's like the first lines, which is what we see Weisler typing up about how they open the presents and presumably have intercourse.
• 50:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, the famous line from before.
• 50:14
  Speaker A: But then he gets to the night where Paul Hauser was supposed to be going across the border, and he realizes that the surveillance officer, whoever wrote this, covered for him for some reason. And he reads more about other parts. And when they were struggling with editing the article, he had covered it up as them being struggling about the play.
• 50:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, come on, come on. The movie is over. We've reached the emotional high point of the movie. We saw this already. Let's move it along.
• 50:50
  Speaker A: I don't know. I enjoy this. I enjoyed him getting to, actually, especially since we've spent so much time with him not knowing. I like the revelation.
• 50:59
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's fair.
• 51:01
  Speaker A: But I also like that he starts to look for all the initials, and he sees HGWXX seven. And he goes over to one of the clerks, is like, who is this? But before he does that, he also sees Krista MariE, is signed, like, confession letter and agreement to become an informant. And looks at the timeline, is like, wait, how would she be able to move the typewriter? Because she wasn't home yet.
• 51:29
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 51:30
  Speaker A: And then he also sees a note about HGW XX Seven's promotion ban. So he goes over to the clerk to find out who HGW was and finds Weisler's information. So he goes over to drive to the neighborhood where Weissler now works as a postman. He gets out of his car, and it looks like he's about to walk up to him, but he decides against it.
• 51:52
  Speaker B: So this was very cool. What did you think about it?
• 51:59
  Speaker A: I wasn't necessarily disappointed. I liked the moment. I kind of wanted him to actually say it, but I understand why he did. So it was a good moment.
• 52:09
  Speaker B: It would probably be very difficult for him because there's a lot of memories there. But maybe this is me kind of overdoing it like I normally do. But I also was wondering if there was, like, a subtext to this, because in the book that we're going to talk about a little bit later, in spy fact versus fiction, called Stasiland, they talk about how when the Soviet Union fell and Germany was reintegrated, in the words of Malcolm Reynolds, they are all just folk now. Nobody went to prison. None of the former Stasi people went to prison or were killed or anything like that. And then, let alone 200,000 informants, were they all going to get punished? No. So then suddenly you have victims and victimizers. They all need to learn to live together in the new Germany, and they have to be able to put the past behind them if they're going to move forward. So I wondered if the relationship between these two people is like the country and microcosm.
• 53:11
  Speaker A: I'd say so, probably. Yeah, I like that.
• 53:15
  Speaker B: Also.
• 53:15
  Speaker A: Nice use of microcosm.
• 53:17
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 53:18
  Speaker A: So we go to, two years later, there's a bookstore which Weisler is passing by on his route, and he sees this giant ad for Draymond's latest book, which is called A Sonata for a Good man, Sonata for a good man.
• 53:33
  Speaker B: Yeah, they do a little bit of, like, the physical comedy where he walks by.
• 53:39
  Speaker A: And so he goes in and picks up a copy and goes flipping through the pages, and he sees that the book is dedicated to HGW XX Seven. And so he goes to pay for it. And I like this, the line where the shopkeeper asks, would you like a gift wrap? He said, no, it's for me that the movie ends.
• 54:04
  Speaker B: All right, so now it's time for our spy fact versus fiction. I can go first.
• 54:09
  Speaker A: All right, I'll go first because I've just got a few things.
• 54:11
  Speaker B: Okay, sure.
• 54:14
  Speaker A: This is one thing that stood out to me just in the opening text where it says Glasnost is nowhere to be found. I feel like we've. Or was it Paris Troika, one of the two? I think it was Glassnost.
• 54:25
  Speaker B: It was Glasnost.
• 54:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, but I feel like we've talked about it before, but this is from a time article, actually, about. It's from a time article about the death of Mikhail Gorbachev, actually, who'd apparently died, what, last year in August. And so they're talking about all know. Yes, he was famous for these, but what do they actually mean? So Glasnos means openness, particularly openness of information, and perestroika means restructuring, specifically of the communist economy and political system. The terms went hand in hand because together the reforms they described would make the Soviet Union more democratic and incorporate some features of capitalism to revitalize the economy.
• 55:09
  Speaker B: It's basically liberalizing the.
• 55:11
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So that's one of the things I have. And the other thing I have, which I don't know if you caught this when they're going in to install all the bugs. So they pick the lock, but they use what's called a snap cut gun, also known as a lock pick gun or a pick gun or an electric lock pick. That's from Wikipedia. It's a tool that can be used to open a pin tumbler lock without using a key. A thin steel blade, similar in shape to a lock pick, is certain to the lock, and the snapgun briefly fires a blade against all of the pins, simultaneously momentarily freeing the cylinder and enabled it to be turned using attention wrench. So it's a lot faster than conventional lock pick.
• 55:54
  Speaker B: That's interesting. I thought they just had some kind of magic thing that gave them access to all the doors.
• 56:00
  Speaker A: I've seen one of these in action before, and they are scarily fast. It's just like. And that's it. As opposed to. I think we've both done some lock picking things at Spy museum events, and that can take a lot of time, whereas with this thing is just, obviously, we're amateurs at it, so maybe other people be a lot faster, but still.
• 56:22
  Speaker B: But not bad.
• 56:23
  Speaker A: Never going to be as fast as a snap gun. But I did note that when Wesler goes into the attic, he uses traditional snap gun.
• 56:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, it might be loud, but at.
• 56:38
  Speaker A: The same time, when they're setting up everything, it's not. So I'm not sure why. One they use one and the other use the other. But I also like that a lot of times when they show lock picking in movies, they will just have the pick. They won't have the tension wrench as well. But he actually showed both. I was like, okay, kudos.
• 56:58
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 56:58
  Speaker A: So that's what I've got for Spy Factor, spy Fiction.
• 57:01
  Speaker B: Okay, so, like I mentioned, I read a very good book called Stasi Land Stories from Behind the Berlin Wall by Anna Funder. We'll see if we can do a microdot about this a little bit later once I have all the notes organized. But just a couple of things from this obsessed with detail. The Stasi failed to predict the end of communism and the Soviet Union along with it. It went from a Stalinist spy unit one day to a museum in the next.
• 57:25
  Speaker A: Oh, wow.
• 57:26
  Speaker B: And in its 40 years, what they called the firm generated the equivalent of all records in German history since the Middle Ages.
• 57:33
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 57:34
  Speaker B: Placed end to end, the files the Stasi kept on their countrymen and women would form a line 180 km long.
• 57:40
  Speaker A: Damn. Okay.
• 57:41
  Speaker B: And in American, that's really long. I didn't look it up, and I think this isn't in the book, but a lot of the files is exactly what our hero wrote, which is just people doing normal stuff. We'll do one story about a woman named Miriam, who she says that she officially became an enemy of the state at 16.
• 58:00
  Speaker A: Oh.
• 58:01
  Speaker B: Her and a friend of hers named UrsULA made leaflets that are protesting the regime and stuck them up around town one night. They wore gloves as not to leave fingerprints, went all over town, and they would have gotten away with it, except that they went one step too far when they went to a building where some of their classmates lived and put leaflets in the litter boxes of two boys they knew, and one of those boys'parents called the police.
• 58:27
  Speaker A: So wait up. You're telling me that they would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids?
• 58:33
  Speaker B: Or more like the meddling parents?
• 58:35
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, but the kids. I mean, come on. You said they would have gotten away. I was like, I have to complete this.
• 58:40
  Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. I mean, that was Miriam's theory, at least. So after being arrested, they were in solitary confinement for a month. No visits from their parents or lawyers, books, no newspapers or even a phone call. And they had the classic prisoner's dilemma from the Sassy, where one would be told the other one had betrayed them. And Miriam said, eventually, they break you. Just like fiction. They used the old trick and told each of us the other had admitted, so we might as well.
• 59:08
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 59:09
  Speaker B: And then when they were let out to admit their trials, Miriam thought, there's no way she's going back to the sassy prison. Got on a train for Berlin to go over the wall. Okay, well, we'll see. So that's where the story continues. She tried to use a stepladder to scale one of the borders on Earth. And she said, I still have scars in my hands from climbing the barred wire when you couldn't see them so well. 30 years later, when she was being interviewed, there was a part where she hopped over a fence and came face to face with an attack dog.
• 59:42
  Speaker A: Oh, jeez.
• 59:42
  Speaker B: She said, I don't know why it didn't attack me. I don't know how dogs see. But maybe it had been trained to attack moving targets, and maybe I thought it was another dog. So when she got to the wall, she said, the railing was really only so high. All I had to do was get under it. I had been so very careful and so very slow. You only had four more steps. Just run. But then she encountered a trip wire. She didn't see it. Sirens went off, wailing. There were shirts placed to find her. And the Easter guards took her away. She said, I think they probably demoted that dog. Poor thing. Either that or shot him. But the main point of the question 90 after night was to extract the names of the underground escape organizations that helped her. How did she know how to get there? She'd never been to Berlin before. Who taught her how to deal with barbed wire? And, most insistently, who told her how to get past the dogs? They just could not fathom how I got past that dog, she says. So, I know this isn't exactly related to the lives of others, but, I.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker A: Mean, it's a little bit about the whole experience of East Germany.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Of course, a couple more quotes. Everyone suspected everyone else. And the mistrust, the spread was the foundation of social existence. And the last thing, the only mass medium the government couldn't control was the signal from Western television stations, which was not in the movie for some reason. But the government did try. Until the early 1970s, the stasis used to monitor the angles of people Antonai hanging out of their apartments and punishing them if they turned towards the West. And later they gave up. The benefits of horrific commercial programming apparently outweighed the dangers of news bulletins from the free world. All right, so now it is time for our favorite quotes. Some have been mentioned already. I can go first?
• 1:01:26
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker B: Someone says, writers are engineers of the soul. And someone else said, didn't Stalin say when I like the one about the intercourse as well as the one about the ball. I like somebody, probably Draymond says, if you don't take a stand, you aren't human. I also thought there was a cool line where his friend says, we have a lot to gain from this love story, or a lot to lose. Yeah, justice once, my friend, like we mentioned. And then finally, towards the end, the minister says, life was good in our little republic. Which is, like, so creepy. I like that.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker A: So I've got two. One, you kind of touched on it, but here's the whole quote, says, an innocent prisoner will become more angry by the hour due to the injustice served. He will shout and rage. A guilty prisoner becomes more calm and quiet. Or he cries. He knows he's there for a reason. The best way to establish guilt or innocence is nonstop interrogation.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, that was certainly this Dante's method.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, that was their motto. But the other one I liked is that after the first time that they search his house and rip up his pillows and stuff like that, he says, in the unlikely event that damage has occurred, you may claim compensation.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's like he's really going to get compensation for that. I feel like he'd probably. If you hadn't been to a gulag yet, something would happen if you get asked for compensation.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker A: Yeah, but that's what I've got.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker B: Okay, so now it's time for our ratings. On a scale of one to ten martinis, one being Avengers 1998, and ten being mission Impossible, Ghost protocol or better, how would we rate the lives of others?
• 1:03:10
  Speaker A: All right. Do you want to go for a sec?
• 1:03:12
  Speaker B: Sure. So I have mixed feelings.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker A: All right.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker B: I was very interested in a movie about life in a surveillance state. The performances were really good, and the story was interesting. It didn't quite reach the level that I was hoping.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker A: All right.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker B: And I can't articulate it very well where I was kind of hoping I would go with that. It was kind of slow because it is a foreign movie, but the twists and the turns.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker A: Not all foreign movies are slow. Look at RR.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker B: RR is really long. But you're right, it's not slow. Yeah. The relationship between the characters was really interesting and the way it all shook out. So I do think that I can see why people like it as much as they do, even if it totally didn't work for me. So I'm going to give it a 7.5.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker A: All right, interesting. Maybe it's because it's my first time watching it and I knew it was supposed to be kind of long and depreSsing, which, I mean, it is both those things, but it didn't necessarily feel that way. And I was engaged in. It's an interesting sort of. It's also talking in a way about. I'm wondering if maybe it's just because of the manner that I was watching it in, because I was watching it and also typing notes on it, and I was like, well, this is over a meta level. Know Weisler is watching or listening to these people and typing his notes on them as I'm doing that as well. And just a real meta experience. Like, there was also more humor in there than I was expecting. So there was moments of levity amongst all of it. And for me, just the idea having no experience in being in the surveillance state other than the world that we live in now, which is not necessarily a real comparison for me. It captured that feeling of just constant surveillance and also just the like. Actually, the moment that got me about as well was the moment in the cafeteria where Grubitz is like, one bad word about the party leader and he scared that junior officer that it would ruin his entire career. So that feeling of one wrong word against the party. Yeah, the tension was there, so I appreciated that. It worked for me a lot more than I, and I liked it a lot more than I thought I would. So I'm going to eight and a half martinius out of ten.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't think it was that depressing. We've seen more depressing movies.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker B: It's only it ended with everyone in prison or dead.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker A: She ended on a hopeful note. So I was like, but just due to the nature of it and what I'd heard about it, I thought it was going to be just sort of endlessly depressing, and it wasn't, so I was glad for that.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you really liked it.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know if I'd watch it again or at least not in a long time. But I did enjoy, not necessarily, doesn't have rewatchability.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker B: That's fair.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker A: So what this movie also did remind me of. So there's a great, and I know we always talk about the spy museum here because we love the Spy Museum. But in the current spy museum, there is a great section on East Berlin where you actually, it's set behind a section of the actual Berlin Wall, which is really cool. But they have a Stasi headquarters, which has a bunch of files and talks about, I think his name is Marcus Wolfe, who's the head of the Stasi. But they also have an interrogation room. And now I kind of want to go in there to see does it bear any resemblance to the rooms that they have there? But they have this great interactive activity where you can sort of have a couple of ones there, one where you sort of are watching a video screen and you're trying to sort of catch all of the different tells that people might have if they're lying. And there's another where you can actually sit across from someone else with these video screens in front of you. But there's cameras, and you can try to spot their tells as they have to tell a lie or tell a truth. It's a fun kind of thing. But also, wait, are we training people to be sassy agents?
• 1:07:35
  Speaker B: I saw that. I don't find that fun. That kind of freaks me out. It's a little too close to home.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker A: I think it's interesting is what it is.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker B: Yeah, it could be both. It could be both. Interesting is still kind of traumatic. And also, as I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, I went to Hawks and I'll send you some pictures for our social media if you want to share it. Let's just say that not all of the rooms that the people were kept in were as nice as the ones in the. Also wanted to, sorry. I also wanted to mention I read the biography of Marcus Wolf called Man Without a Face.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker B: And it ended up not really being suitable for a micro dot. But if you're curious, you can check it out just because I don't think it had enough kind of good, funny or interesting.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker A: Oh, OK. All right.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. But I did read.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker A: Oh, cool. All right. Well, with that, we'll end our episode. Thank you all for joining us. You can find us on social media at the spyfy guys on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and our merch store@redbubble.com, until next time, I'm Christian.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker B: And I'm Zach.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker A: And we are the spy Fi guys signing off. Thank you for listening to the spy Fi guys. If you enjoyed our podcast, please be sure to give us a five star rating on iTunes. The theme song from this podcast is Mistake the Getaway by Kevin McLeod from incompetent.com, licensed under Creative Commons by attribution. 30 films, books and television shows reviewed by our podcast are the intellectual property of their respective copyright holders and no infringement is intended.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker B: This is a personal podcast. Any views, statements or opinions expressed in this podcast are personal and belong solely to the participants. They do not represent those of people, institutions or organizations that the participants may or may not be associated with in a professional or personal capacity unless explicitly stated. Any views or opinions are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company or individual.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker A: You can find our podcast on social media at the Spy Fi Guys on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.