Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / The Hidden Leadership Gap

Transcript

The Hidden Leadership Gap · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

0:00
Welcome back to AI for Founders. I'm Ryan Estes.
0:02
Now, every founder I know is sprinting to keep up with AI.
0:05
New tools, new models, new expectations.
0:08
But here's an uncomfortable truth.
0:10
AI is making technical skill cheaper by the day and exposing
0:13
something most leaders never developed, their human edge.
0:17
Today's guest, Uma, spent 20 years inside Microsoft, climbed
0:21
the ladder, played the game and then hit a breaking point that
0:23
forced a hard question. If everyone has access to the
0:26
same technology, what actually makes a leader indispensable?
0:30
In this conversation, we unpack how influence, visibility,
0:34
communication, and emotional intelligence are becoming the
0:37
real leverage points in an AI driven world.
0:40
You'll learn why AI is amplifying weak leadership
0:42
instead of fixing it. The human advantage that
0:45
separates replaceable operators from irreplaceable leaders.
0:49
How founders can stay relevant, trusted, and influential as
0:52
automation accelerates. This episode is for founders,
0:55
operators, and execs who don't just want to survive the AI
0:58
wave, but lead it. So let's get into it.
1:01
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straight in your inbox, go to aiforfounders.co and subscribe
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1:10
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That's Kick Caster by MO Burst. Thanks so much for joining me.
2:23
Welcome to the show. Thanks to Tan Ryan, it's a
2:27
pleasure and honor to be here. Absolutely.
2:29
I, I can't wait to talk to you, largely because you're here to
2:32
help people that listen to this show.
2:35
So give us a a brief overview of your business.
2:40
So I'm the founder of Limitless Leaders, which I founded three
2:44
years ago. We help tech professionals, both
2:49
ICS and managers, build influence and visibility and
2:55
become sought after within their organizations as well as online.
3:00
Credible. So exactly what kind of service
3:02
are you providing? So I call it the sought after
3:06
leader experience. It's a six month
3:08
transformational leadership program where we help these
3:15
leaders and emerging leaders coming in, build visibility,
3:21
build, learn how to think strategically, communicate
3:27
clearly, build leadership presence as well as you know,
3:32
create amazing impact within the organizations and outside in the
3:36
field. And it's a six month program end
3:40
to end. That's what we help with is
3:43
really all of our clients are working mostly in the AI field.
3:49
These are product managers, software engineers, you know,
3:52
working at Microsoft, Amazon, and they are, you know, very
3:56
technical. We help them bridge the, you
4:01
know, the technical expertise and make them really the, you
4:05
know, the, the modern leaders that today's era needs where
4:09
they are able to, you know, connect the dots, communicate
4:13
magnetically and really create amazing impact wherever they
4:18
are. Fantastic.
4:20
Now a lot of the the listeners of the podcast are technical
4:24
founders or technical Co founders, which is to say these
4:27
are my people. These are people that are more
4:29
comfortable with glowing rectangles than they are
4:32
probably with with people. So talk about the the
4:35
transformation where when people are coming to you, what
4:38
challenges are they facing right now in their career, their
4:41
personal life, kind of leadership, that kind of thing.
4:45
First and foremost is really building the relationships
4:51
within the organisations with the people that they need to
4:54
work at, with the people they are leading.
4:56
That's one of the first things we work on is how to really
5:00
build relationships, genuine relationships that move people,
5:06
that inspire people to action. So that's one of the things.
5:10
And then clear communication. That's the second I would say
5:13
just how to really communicate clearly.
5:16
You know, AI is really, you know, elevating the playing
5:20
field and kind of standardising it.
5:22
Everyone can use AI and, you know, get a lot of the tasks
5:27
done very quickly, get a lot of, you know, research and data.
5:31
All of that is at our fingertips now.
5:33
I mean, how do we take all that and connect the dots?
5:38
How do we understand what is really important to the
5:40
organization? And then how do we communicate
5:43
that vision and move people to action that those are kind of
5:47
the pieces that are becoming more and more important.
5:50
And that's what we help with. I think it is, you know,
5:54
strategic thinking, communication with clarity and
5:59
leadership presence, really building genuine relationships
6:04
where people feel like, you know, they they are cared for
6:07
and they want to work and they want to do amazing things.
6:10
Really, you know, all of these things really matter more now.
6:14
Relationships and communication, boy, it always comes down to
6:17
that, doesn't it? Yeah, I think those, those are
6:20
the 2 with strategic thinking, I would say.
6:23
Yeah, where where people are looking for to AI to reduce body
6:27
count all over the place. You're just always going to have
6:29
humans and we're always going to have to figure out a way to work
6:33
together. And it's, you know, the, the the
6:36
better we are at those skills, the faster you can move and
6:39
ultimately, you know, the more cash for everybody, which is
6:42
great. So relationships and
6:44
communication now for, for founders and for, for leaders
6:48
for that matter. CE OS you know, there's a lot of
6:51
different kinds of relationships you have, perhaps you have
6:54
investor relationships, perhaps you have Co founder
6:57
relationships. Perhaps you have, you definitely
6:59
have staff relationships. Where do you find people are
7:02
struggling the most? My audience is you typically mid
7:09
to senior level corporate professionals working in large
7:14
tech companies and typically they are struggling with
7:19
stakeholder relationships, relationships with, you know,
7:22
senior leadership. So those are the areas that we
7:26
work with and sometimes with the, you know, their teams and
7:30
direct reports, the managing teams as well.
7:32
So it can be any of those levels.
7:35
So it's people under, you know, working in your team at that
7:39
same level, your peers as well as it can be senior leadership.
7:44
And you know, that's one of the things that we work on.
7:46
I think I would say what it comes down to is really, you
7:55
know, caring for people and understanding what the business
7:59
needs, what the organization needs and finding common goals
8:03
and shared purpose and driving them towards that it's.
8:08
Really what you know, and there's similarities because
8:11
whether you know, you're in a large enterprise organization or
8:16
you're in a scrappy startup, you're always going to have a
8:19
hierarchy. And even if you're at the very
8:22
top, you know, your customers are still going to be your boss.
8:25
So we all have a boss to deal with.
8:28
We all have, you know, staff that we need to deal with with
8:31
which is either, you know, they're your direct reports or
8:34
maybe they're, they're colleagues and peers, you know.
8:37
So let's talk a little bit about challenging some, some tough
8:40
relationships with your boss, whether that's, you know, your
8:44
board or maybe that is your, your direct report.
8:50
You know, what are some good communication skills and maybe
8:53
what are some traps that people seem to fall in?
8:55
I know, I know for for a lot of folks, particularly founders,
8:58
they don't like being told what to do, you know, but but they're
9:01
going to have to deal with that. They're going to have to figure
9:03
out ways to be productive. How do you see that kind of
9:06
being effective kind of in in a work environment?
9:10
I think there's two types of challenges I see that comes up.
9:15
1 is when people are, you know, staying silent and not
9:27
communicating, not making things clear or assuming you know
9:31
people already know. So just really encouraging some
9:36
of my audience struggles with that.
9:37
So one of the things we do is really, you know, helping them,
9:40
giving them the tools of how to communicate assertively.
9:44
So whether it's a difficult conversation with your manager
9:48
or a peer, you know, or you have to give difficult feedback or
9:53
tough feedback to a direct report, having the confidence
9:57
and the tools to communicate and you know, do that assertively is
10:02
one of the aspects that we run into often.
10:06
And on the other side, it is being, you know, too
10:11
authoritative and coming across as aggressive or really being
10:17
pushy, you know, micromanaging that kind of stuff.
10:20
And so there we have to balance it out and again, learn how to,
10:26
you know, communicate and work with people in a way that we are
10:29
motivating them and inspiring them and empowering them, not
10:33
necessarily, you know, just telling them what to do, you
10:38
know, pushing them towards something.
10:39
So it's, it's balancing both of those.
10:41
I see both of those issues coming up with my clients often.
10:48
Yeah. Is there any kind of frameworks
10:50
or rules? You know, one thing I kind of
10:52
went over is, you know, through kind of some of my projects,
10:56
I've sent, let's call it 10 million emails or something
11:00
insane about that. And I really set up some pretty
11:03
firm rules, largely because there's certain things that
11:07
don't come across in text, like sarcasm doesn't work, you know,
11:12
or being very gruff and short doesn't work.
11:16
Or please see the speaking to another component of the e-mail
11:21
thread and just giving one line things.
11:24
I was very always emphatic that people would actually, you know,
11:29
take the time for a nice greeting like good morning, Uma,
11:33
address the issue and then have a nice conclusion.
11:35
And it it's never sarcastic. It's never short or I'll
11:39
tempered because there there seems to be a kind of a fight
11:43
flight or freeze response that happens when you get a spicy
11:48
e-mail. Like literally it could I'll
11:51
just speak for myself. It could throw me for hours
11:53
where I'm like, I can't believe they would write something like
11:56
that. Now I am also interpreting
11:59
malintent with their e-mail. So another kind of rule I have
12:02
is like always, it's assume positive intent.
12:06
Like we're going to always come through positively, largely
12:09
because we don't like it when it comes back to us.
12:10
But when it does, let's assume that they don't have the same
12:15
framework for interpreting kind of emails and written text.
12:19
What are maybe some other techniques and just rules of
12:22
thumb people could kind of keep in mind when they're they're
12:24
dealing with maybe kind of a a challenging situation.
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think. One of the things I would say is
15:01
if it's a difficult conversation, never do it in
15:05
text or Slack or Teams has to be in, you know, in person or over
15:09
Zoom and depending on you know how what kind of work settings
15:14
you have, but really, but you know, directly to the person.
15:18
And I think it also needs to be immediate.
15:20
So don't put away the feedback or the difficult conversation
15:25
for too long. It needs to be, you know, pretty
15:30
immediately after you observe the behaviour.
15:33
Third would be have when you're having that conversation, focus
15:39
on the behaviour, not on, you know, judging or labeling the
15:42
whole person. So just really pinpointing or
15:45
focusing on the behaviour that is causing the challenge or
15:49
problem and keeping it to that is, is again, another thing to
15:53
keep in mind. Many times we, you know, just go
15:56
and tell the person, Hey, you're, you know, and kind of
16:01
would not accuse them, but it might come across or it can be
16:04
perceived as such that we are blaming the entire person.
16:08
So again, just not doing that and focusing on the behaviour is
16:11
a great way. There are several frameworks
16:15
actually that are available to communicate different types of
16:22
information and insight that we have to provide a day-to-day
16:25
basis in a corporate or in a start up type of setting.
16:31
Some of the one framework that particularly comes to mind is
16:35
the Nonviolent Communication formula.
16:37
It's called NVC and that is really awesome.
16:41
I've actually written and posted about it multiple times on
16:44
LinkedIn, so it's available on my LinkedIn profile as well.
16:49
It is one framework that if you learn that, it teaches you step
16:54
by step how to really give feedback or have a difficult
17:00
conversation without taking full ownership on how whatever
17:06
challenge or concern is you're, you know, bringing up is what is
17:11
the impact on you and what is the behaviour you observed?
17:16
What is the impact that behaviour or issue is having on
17:20
you? What do you need instead and why
17:25
do you need it? Why it's important for you?
17:28
And that's it. I mean, it's a simple framework.
17:29
You can look up NBC formula or Nonviolent Communication
17:33
formula. I love that.
17:35
I teach every one of my clients. I have used it myself in my
17:39
career, even with my manager. And you know, in the past and
17:45
really have seen what it does is it doesn't blame or accuse
17:49
people of what they have done. It doesn't, you know, put them
17:52
in the defensive or offensive kind of situation.
17:56
It, it is very respectful of them as well as you like it
18:01
also, you know, makes sure that you communicate what your needs
18:05
are and why it's important, you know, to you.
18:08
And they have to know that. And what we have seen is once I
18:12
coach this technique to my clients and even from my
18:16
personal experience, the relationship actually gets
18:19
better. Like once you have this sort of,
18:22
you know, communication and conversation with people,
18:25
however difficult they may be, you know, it actually improves
18:30
at the end. The relationship improves
18:33
immediately. So that's something that I would
18:35
say if you are interested, look it up and follow it.
18:41
Can I lobby a criticism of NVC for you?
18:45
Oh. OK.
18:47
I would love to hear your feedback because I, I agree, I
18:50
think it's, it's fantastic. Now where the challenges for
18:53
someone like me is it introduces feelings into the workplace and
18:59
that's very challenging, you know, so, you know, I for one,
19:04
don't want to show emotion aside from enthusiasm and positivity.
19:08
I don't want to, I don't want to bring like I am feeling
19:11
disappointed. And what I need you to do is
19:15
never do that again. And you know, largely because,
19:24
well, I'll, I'll put it in the perspective of the whole bring
19:26
your whole self to work movement, which is like, you
19:29
bring your whole person out. And I just don't really
19:31
fundamentally believe that. And I think it's probably
19:34
because, you know, a lifetime ago, I came up in retail and
19:38
your boss will be like, Hey, you better have a, a, a smile on the
19:41
aisle. Like we're not, I'm not here to
19:43
listen to like what happened last night.
19:45
You're here to sell and so I really adopted that kind of like
19:48
mask bringing it into work. We're like my I am Ryan at work,
19:53
you know what I'm saying? And I kind of want that from my
19:55
team. What would be kind of your
19:56
response to to that kind of management style?
20:00
So believe it or not, I would say 80% of my clients struggle
20:06
with that, that this is the first thing that they hit when I
20:10
teach them like, but I'm not comfortable, you know, sharing
20:15
my feelings. But I think it's, you don't have
20:18
to, you know, open up and be vulnerable and share your entire
20:22
story or you know, how you're feeling.
20:24
It's just that one word, right? Like it's just here, I feel
20:31
disappointed. Alright, you know, it's just a
20:33
little bit. And there are, you know, if
20:36
you're, if you don't want to say I feel hurt or something, you
20:38
can use a slightly less, you know, vulnerable word.
20:43
But I would say once we get over that hump, it really opens
20:51
because we have to like the only way to connect with another
20:56
human is by little bit opening up ourselves.
21:01
And you know, and as a leader especially, we need to role
21:05
model that and show that to our people.
21:07
If we don't open up, if we are guarded, how will we expect
21:13
other people to, you know, like feel ownership of what they're
21:19
doing and, you know, have a great time at work and, you
21:23
know, do everything that we hope they will do for us within in
21:27
the company, right? So I think it's, it's as a
21:29
leader, it's a responsibility. Then we get over that hump a
21:34
little bit and really open up and we are open to sharing a
21:39
little bit and, you know, being vulnerable.
21:42
But I agree with you, it's a struggle, something that I have
21:46
seen time and again with my clients, male and female like
21:50
it. It's not even gender specific
21:52
that much, like I have seen women struggle with this as
21:55
well. But I have also seen success.
21:59
So it's worth it, worth trying. It's worth the challenge for
22:02
sure. And you know, the effort goes a
22:04
long way. Even if you you fumble it up,
22:06
you know, it's something I talk to about with my kids.
22:09
It's like, you know, if you're out here trying to be a, a, a
22:13
decent human being, you're going to make some mistakes and you
22:15
can always just go back and be like, Hey, I kind of blew that.
22:17
Like, let me try this again, you know, which is I think the
22:21
willingness is really important, but it is like a very nuanced
22:24
and, and dicey terrain because there there's specific
22:30
differences between sympathy, between empathy and between
22:34
compassion. And to your point, again, this
22:37
is kind of what I talked to my kids about is like an apology
22:40
really is like a transferral of emotion in some aspect on the
22:45
very furthest of the mean. Let's say you're really upset.
22:49
You know what I mean, you, you don't want to like blow up at
22:52
somebody, but you need to like take this emotional weight of
22:56
big emotions and give them that big emotion.
23:01
And the person on that side has to be willing to receive it.
23:04
And then they have to be able to communicate like, Hey, I was
23:06
feeling great and then I talked to you and realize how bad you
23:09
feel Now I feel bad. I feel bad because that's at
23:12
that point the other person can release the burden of that
23:15
feeling be like, OK, great. And then if you're on the, the
23:19
side of the, the, the, the apologetic 1, you got to digest
23:23
that somehow like, and it's like, boy, I feel terrible.
23:26
I blew it. You know, here's how we'll make
23:29
amends. And then you're going to have to
23:30
like, let it go at some capacity.
23:32
Now, this is very difficult. You know, it, it hurts it, it's,
23:37
it, it's hard if, especially if you're talking about the very
23:41
large end of the extreme. The other thing about kind of
23:44
communicating like this is it can kind of be weaponized.
23:48
You, you also have to have like a sympathetic person on the
23:51
other side who also understands some of the tenants like, hey,
23:53
we're going to, I'm going to express a little bit about how
23:56
I'm feeling, you know, and so then they can express how
23:58
they're feeling. And now suddenly it's a jab at
24:00
you and you're playing this weird game.
24:02
So it's, I think that a, a lot of folks might think that
24:06
communication like this is like an end game.
24:09
There's a a way to win, but rather it's just a path that
24:12
you're always going to stumble along, but hopefully you can
24:15
kind of forge relationships out of that.
24:17
Is that a fair assessment? I just want to add one thing to
24:21
that, Ryan, which is what I have seen is because this weight,
24:26
this formula makes you very clearly state what you need and
24:33
set boundaries and, you know, be very clear about your
24:36
expectations and why you need them.
24:39
You, what I have seen is you actually come out very strong
24:44
and clear. It's, it's, I know we start with
24:47
the feelings part and I know it's like scary for many of us,
24:52
but it is actually very clear kind of firm communication
24:57
style. It is and and what I have seen
25:02
is I have used this style with you know, 2 levels, a senior
25:08
leader that is 2 levels above me and all that in the past.
25:12
And the moment we have that, even with the, you know, A2
25:16
level senior leader, after having that conversation from
25:24
that person, the respect towards me actually increased so many
25:29
more times. Like this is a true story.
25:31
Like they, I, I felt like that, you know, and there was a
25:38
challenge. I communicated this way.
25:41
And after the communication, the level of respect they had for me
25:46
and how they, you know, our relationship, like everything
25:50
got so much better, like immediately.
25:53
And that is why I say that even though it looks at the surface
25:58
level, because you're starting with sharing your feeling that
26:02
it could be weak or perceived as weak, it's actually a very
26:09
respectful, I mean, even for you, like, you know, very like
26:12
self respecting type of communication, not something
26:16
that is very humble or weak and you have to try it to experience
26:21
it. It's actually very you're you're
26:23
really firm and clear on what you need.
26:27
And and so it's not a weak style of communication.
26:31
I even though it. Oh, I totally agree.
26:33
It it is vulnerable, but ultimately, particularly if
26:37
you're the authority, you're the founder, you're the boss, you
26:40
know, then you do have the power.
26:43
Now it also kind of gets confusing because, you know, 10
26:47
years ago there was a lot of talk about dismantling power
26:50
structures and like it, it went very extreme where kind of
26:53
people were looking around and be like, hey, man, book stops
26:55
with me. I got all this risk.
26:57
So guess what? I got the power, you know, but
27:00
it's ultimately your responsibility to wield it in a
27:04
benevolent way. I think at least, you know, but
27:07
some people are going to need to understand what the consequences
27:11
are and when you need to exercise the power.
27:14
So for example, here's just like a random case.
27:18
We're talking about emails. So if I'm going to say staff and
27:21
I say, you know, I've noticed that there have been several
27:24
typos in the emails that you're putting out.
27:28
And as a result, I'm a little disappointed that you're not
27:30
following the SO PS that clearly show exactly the steps to take
27:34
to like not have that happen again.
27:37
So I just need you to understand that there are there's
27:40
consequences. These are the consequences.
27:42
If this continues, staff turns around with an e-mail that says
27:49
I'm feeling terrible because you're triggering an old emotion
27:53
I had from a toxic work environment and I'm re
27:58
experiencing that feeling. And so when you give me this
28:01
kind of like warning or whatever it may be, I'm feeling
28:05
unmotivated to work. I'm feeling my mental health is
28:08
threatened. I don't feel safe like so this
28:10
is a way that I don't want to say weaponizing this kind of
28:13
language, but like taking advantage of kind of like some
28:16
of the some of the nuance in how people use it.
28:20
So at which point you say, like, I realize your concern.
28:25
However, if this continues, these are the steps to your
28:28
termination ultimately. So there there's a which which
28:32
again, feels terrible, but, but ultimately I think there are
28:35
going to be people in, up in, in places that you're going to have
28:40
to like underline, like here is the authority, here is the
28:44
standard. You know, I think along with
28:46
that you have to have all the operational procedures and all
28:48
the HR paperwork and all that stuff.
28:50
It all gets very murky. But ultimately, I think in
28:54
situations like that where I, I've had to like really kind of
28:58
underline the, the power and authority.
29:01
If these are terrible ways, it actually does kind of it's
29:04
comforting to to people that want to push the buttons.
29:07
Have you seen similar things in your work?
29:11
Yes, definitely balancing this whole like, you know, being
29:18
empathetic, being a caring leader, being support, a
29:21
supportive leader and helping with making sure that we're
29:27
keeping people accountable and focused on creating impact.
29:32
That is key. So we there needs to be a focus
29:36
or balance between, you know, all this soft stuff that we're
29:41
talking about as well as, you know, being really firm and
29:46
making the expectations clear. First of all, having high
29:49
expectations, you know, we need to have really high expectations
29:53
for our people. We need to do the right things
29:55
and you know, create the environments where they can
29:58
thrive. But at the same time, having
30:00
high expectations is really critical.
30:03
And again, using we can use the same formula, but we need to be
30:09
very clear that, you know, we expect good things from you and
30:13
you know, high quality and all of that.
30:15
And you know, and also sitting, even if you talked about
30:18
otherwise, you know, you'll be let go or whatever that may be,
30:21
also making those things very clear to them, right?
30:24
And that can be done in a way and in a tone where it is, you
30:30
know, we are clearly communicating that.
30:32
But it doesn't need to come in from an very pushy or aggressive
30:38
or kind of way. We can, you know, initially
30:41
provide support. We can, you know, give them some
30:43
time and create the right environment.
30:46
If it doesn't happen, we have to let people go.
30:49
So everything that I'm saying here, it's not, you know,
30:55
there's no way we will put up with poor performance or low
30:58
quality or, you know, things like that.
31:01
But those also can be communicated using a formula
31:05
like this. But this formula is, is
31:08
inherently not something that, you know, has to be delivered in
31:13
a way that that it has to make you weak.
31:17
You can actually use the formula and really come out very firm
31:22
and strong and clear on what you expect from the individual and
31:26
why that is important and what will be the consequences if they
31:31
don't make that. Yeah, and, you know, doing
31:34
business it's, it's hard not to create enemies and hopefully
31:38
you're not creating enemies, but you know, you can't be friends
31:41
with everybody, you know. I mean, the people are
31:44
wonderful. I'm a people person, you know,
31:46
people are out of their mind also.
31:48
So you're, you're dealing with that in some instances.
31:51
And, and I've, I've also come across potential liability.
31:54
That can be scary too, you know. So if you're having that
31:56
conversation, hey, we've had seen a lot of typos in the
31:58
emails. You know, we need to get that
32:00
changed. And they'll say, or
32:03
hypothetically someone could say, well, you know what, I'm
32:05
autistic, I have ADHD and I'm taking medication for
32:09
depression. Well, now they've just kind of
32:11
like disclosed medical condition to you and now you're, you're
32:15
liable to, to make concessions and change to fit, change the
32:20
work habits to fit their particular mental condition.
32:24
Now this can be a little bit murky here because a lot of
32:27
times I kind of think about it, it's like, well, if I got a job
32:31
and you got to be able to lift 50 lbs because the job is
32:35
lifting 50 lbs and you're telling me you can't lift 50
32:39
lbs. What are we doing now?
32:41
Like now where, where have we come?
32:43
You know, so what's this? I guess what we're doing is
32:46
button up against the lines when like, OK, we've kind of gone
32:50
through nonviolent communication.
32:52
We're we're being sensitive, we're communicating, but it's
32:55
not going to work. You know, maybe there's how do
32:59
you use the technique when it's like, hey, time to part ways?
33:04
One thing I would add before getting to that answer is when
33:08
we tell them about or when we communicate to them about the
33:13
typing, then the typos in the e-mail.
33:16
It's also not just telling them that this is the behaviour we're
33:20
seeing and setting the expectation, but also asking
33:24
them, you know, if they need any support.
33:27
If they do they need any tools like what will help them or you
33:30
know, do they need a mentor? Do they need, you know, some?
33:33
I mean, not for the typo. I know it's kind of a very
33:36
simple example, but if they're struggling with something, you
33:39
know, more complex, do they need, you know, to shadow
33:41
someone or have a body, you know, things like that, right?
33:45
So it's even providing that support and giving them a chance
33:49
would be something to try as a leader.
33:52
You know, the first thing is to make sure that they are well
33:55
supported to try. And if we do that, and if let's
33:59
say it doesn't happen, we're not seeing improvement, then we have
34:03
to let people go. You know, as a leader, there
34:06
isn't just no point in keeping people that are not delivering
34:11
and, you know, doing what they're expected to do.
34:15
So I mean, just being, again, very direct and unclear about
34:20
that would be the way to go. And if HR or something needs to
34:25
be involved, you know, following the process there could be I
34:30
have let people go at Microsoft and so definitely have a lot of
34:35
experience in, you know, both layoff as I had to let people go
34:42
as well as was part of like layoffs and restructuring where
34:46
we I had my direct reports let go.
34:48
So have experienced both and it is difficult but it is something
34:53
we all have to do. It's not fun.
34:56
You know, you, you start a start up, you're like, oh, it's going
34:58
to be to the moon. It's going to be awesome.
35:01
You're not ready. So I think this conversation is
35:03
really important because you know, people are going to put up
35:07
against it. You know, I had a great
35:08
conversation with Mariano yesterday.
35:10
He's got a a wonderful healthcare company, AI
35:13
healthcare company in Brazil. He's on his fourth company.
35:16
You know, he's a bit of a philosopher and we're talking a
35:19
little bit about this because there's a the, the idea that
35:22
goes around, you know, hey, hire slow, fire fast.
35:24
You don't see something, you cut people out, boom, boom, boom,
35:27
keep it moving. Let's go.
35:28
And what he was really talking about is, you know, he's he
35:32
doesn't really do that anymore. He's very careful about like
35:34
terming people not necessarily for their benefit.
35:37
There are people that probably have to go, but he's delicate
35:40
and takes extra steps because of how that affects the team that
35:44
when once the team sees people getting cut, you know, that
35:48
everyone then buttons up and it, it introduces stress to the
35:51
environment. So I, I, you know, from
35:53
somebody, from his experience, you know, 4th company, it was,
35:56
it was interesting to hear that, you know, he treats it very
35:59
delicately because he knows overall that the impact on the
36:02
whole team. Question I've got for you.
36:06
You know, I, I've had the, the pleasure of interviewing and
36:10
working with hundreds of some of the most dynamic, creative,
36:14
amazing women in technology. And I, I'm always interested and
36:20
curious to ask about their experience as a woman in
36:24
technology, which typically, you know, it's, it's more dudes than
36:28
it is gals to see what their experience is.
36:30
And it, it varies greatly from like, Hey, I feel like it's a
36:33
superpower, you know, being woman this or, you know, maybe
36:37
there's like, man, sometimes I feel left out.
36:40
So how does the work that you do kind of differ for for women?
36:47
So first, I'll speak my from my own personal experience working
36:50
at, you know, Microsoft and a tech startup for more than two
36:54
decades. Honestly, in my first, I don't
37:01
know, 15 years at Microsoft, I'm probably the dumbest one, but I
37:06
never felt any difference in, you know, me being a woman.
37:11
Yes, there were situations, yeah, I, I did not like, I did
37:16
not feel that like I would be the, you know, there, there were
37:19
meetings where I'll be the only woman.
37:21
That's all pretty common. But that really didn't come in
37:25
the way of anything I did or anything that I, you know,
37:29
received in return. I would say around the 15 years
37:34
mark is when I actually became even really aware of really the
37:40
struggles that many other women in tech were facing.
37:45
And there was a lot of, you know, talk and all that.
37:47
And that's when my eyes were even open to it.
37:52
And then obviously once you become aware, you can, you know,
37:55
see some of the things and spot some of the things.
37:59
But honestly, like something you said before, Ryan, about
38:03
positive, like, you know, assuming positive intent, those
38:07
types of things. One of the things that I grew up
38:11
with as a teenager, I ended up picking up Think and Grow Rich
38:15
by Napoleon Hill. I don't know if you've read that
38:18
book, but I read that book as a teenager while I was in college.
38:22
And that book changed my whole thinking and how I lived my life
38:27
from that point onwards. So for me, I believed, right,
38:32
you know, when I came into Microsoft in 2001 and that my
38:38
career was mine to design and I, you know, believe that I can own
38:42
it. I, you know, if I set my mind to
38:45
something, I can go achieve it. So that was the attitude with
38:48
which I operated my entire career.
38:53
And so really I didn't let many of the things come in the way
38:57
and I didn't pay attention also like I just even probably I, you
39:01
know, I was aware of some things or challenges, but I always
39:06
figured out, OK, how do I solve this?
39:07
If it's important to me, I'm going to figure out a way to
39:09
solve it. And so that was the whole
39:12
attitude. So I honestly, because of that,
39:16
I didn't really feel some of the challenges that some of my, you
39:21
know, peers and now some of my clients also share with me.
39:26
I just haven't, I probably faced them, but I didn't perceive it
39:32
in the same way. I just, you know, perceive them
39:35
as challenges, things in the way and I figured out a way to, you
39:39
know, resolve them. But now when I as I'm coaching
39:43
and now I'm more aware and I know that there is, you know,
39:48
there are biases, there are, you know, more challenges that women
39:52
are facing. And I'm totally like, you know,
39:56
aware of that and I know that it is true.
39:59
And as I'm coaching my clients also now, I do see that coming
40:07
up often. I, I coach both men and women
40:10
working in, you know, tech companies, But I hear that more
40:13
from women, you know, the, the extra challenges and struggles
40:19
that we, we are faced with. But my solution to all of these.
40:26
Challenges is usually the same. It's really elevating your
40:30
mindset because we don't have control.
40:33
I mean, The thing is I don't like to invest time and my
40:40
energy in things that I don't have control over.
40:44
I like to, you know, invest my time and energy in the things
40:47
that I have full control. So that's kind of how I coach my
40:52
clients as well. So I do know there are
40:55
challenges, but we take them as things, you know, what is in our
41:01
control, how do we move forward from this point.
41:04
And we always figure out a way and I'm seeing great, you know,
41:10
wins from my clients as well, once they are able to switch
41:15
from, hey, I'm a victim, I'm a woman.
41:17
I have to, you know, go through all of these extra challenges
41:21
and all that. Like that's the story some of my
41:23
clients initially carry. And then once we shift to I, you
41:29
know, I'm, I'm a builder, I'm a creator and I go solve problems
41:33
and I do that. We're seeing great results and
41:38
and I'm my clients are happier too when they make that shift.
41:42
It's wonderful, you know, and, you know, worry about what you
41:47
can control and I think there are definitely instances where
41:51
people are women find themselves in some kind of chauvinistic
41:54
terrible place. And ultimately it's like you got
41:57
to get out of there, you know, that's terrible.
42:00
And like, I think that also you carry that with you into your
42:02
next workplace, you know, but what you can control and you
42:06
know, I, I think that and I'm, I'm always kind of scared to
42:09
make brow generalization. So I'm just saying, I'm not
42:12
saying, not making accusations, but often times, you know, men
42:17
are, have attributes that they're just more assertive, you
42:20
know, and so that's within women's control is to proactive
42:23
assertiveness, you know, which again, is a, a tight line to
42:26
walk because you know, if you're bossy or things like that, you
42:30
don't, you don't want to create those situations.
42:31
And so there, it's something to work on.
42:34
So if you're working with women, you know, and, and perhaps being
42:37
assertive in the workplace, how, how do you kind of help them
42:40
walk that line of confidence and assertion without potentially
42:44
alienating? Of course there's that risk and
42:46
sometimes you got to do what you got to do, but how do you work
42:49
with with kind of women in that capacity?
42:53
It's tricky because it's not just the the conscious, you
42:58
know, issues and challenges that we face, right?
43:02
There is also unconscious bias and that can be not just from
43:08
men, but also from women too, like other women having
43:13
unconscious bias towards another woman colleague.
43:18
So it's genders, you know, and with unconscious bias.
43:21
So I just wanted to clarify that, that it's not just
43:24
conscious, you know, things happening, it's just happens at
43:29
an unconscious level for, for women.
43:33
And you know, so, so I, I do think that, you know, that that
43:36
is there as well to think about. So how do we tackle that?
43:41
Again, it's, you know, we start with really working on the, you
43:48
know, on recognizing our inner power like that, you know, what
43:51
are our superpowers, you know, to really build that confidence,
43:55
self-confidence and strength within themselves.
43:58
So usually that's where we start.
44:01
We work on self-awareness, identifying strengths, leaning
44:05
on our strengths, really, you know, working on rewriting some
44:10
of the stories we are carrying. If those stories are holding us
44:13
back. Many of us, many women coming to
44:17
me and I've I lived that to myself.
44:20
We have stories we are carrying that is holding us back, right?
44:24
So it's just identifying those stories, rewriting them so we
44:28
have more empowering stories to carry forward.
44:31
And then just working first inside is the first step.
44:36
Like your mindset, your, you know, inner self.
44:39
And once you know your work, you know who you are, you know your
44:43
strengths, then we work on the outer, you know, strategy,
44:47
skills, communication, those types of things so that they can
44:52
actually, you know, feel confident inside 1st and then
44:56
have the skills and the tactics and the strategy to go
44:59
communicate with confidence and assertively.
45:03
So it's it's twofold, inner 1st and then the outer.
45:08
Beautiful. Appreciate that we're ready to
45:12
enter the Lightning Round. Are you ready for this?
45:15
Yes. OK, who's like ACEO or founder
45:19
or leader that you feel like gets this right?
45:22
Their communication and their relationships are seem to be
45:25
really solid. I.
45:28
Would say Satya Nadella. I when I was at Microsoft, I saw
45:32
Satya come in few years ago and just really, you know, implant
45:38
the humanity in the tech leadership space.
45:42
And I saw the whole culture of the company change and the
45:45
perception, outer perception as well change and the impact of
45:49
the organization change. So I would say Satya.
45:52
Yeah, and Microsoft really has come back on, haven't they?
45:56
Totally. They are killing it.
45:59
Yeah, cool. I love how you're really
46:01
encouraging people to go inward first and kind of gain some of
46:05
the self worth and confidence and build themselves up.
46:07
Because I think we all have, you know, that devil on her shoulder
46:11
that's whispering to us all day long.
46:13
I think it's a great place to start.
46:14
If you could put a phrase on a billboard in Times Square to
46:20
remind people to build themselves up, what would it
46:22
say? Believe in yourself, I.
46:30
Love it. Do you find people don't believe
46:35
in themself? Oh yes.
46:38
Yeah. Yeah, not all, not all the time,
46:45
right. In those difficult moments, it's
46:47
in those challenging moments we forget.
46:51
So it's, it's reminding ourselves that, you know, we
46:53
have to believe in ourselves first before we can expect other
46:57
people to believe in us. You know, I could have used that
47:00
billboard for Thanksgiving. I, I hosted this year and I felt
47:05
a little bit overwhelmed. I was like, Oh my gosh, what
47:07
have I done? In hindsight, I feel like no,
47:11
you know what? Believe in yourself.
47:12
You can handle this. Get the cranberries, go and do
47:15
the beans. You got it man, You're fine.
47:18
We all need that reminder every now and then.
47:22
Amazing. What are some of your favorite
47:26
AI tools? Or better, what LLMS do you use
47:28
and for what tasks? So definitely ChatGPT is my
47:33
favorite. Literally when I started the
47:34
company, Chargeability was released.
47:37
So I, from day one, I've been using Chargeability for
47:40
everything, like all aspects of business.
47:44
And then I use, I use Descript as well for video, video
47:49
editing, so that I use descript, I use open clip, I use free pic
47:57
or creating AI images and like photo shoots kind of thing.
48:02
So yeah, many, many tools. I, I just, I'm so grateful like
48:06
when I started the company in this whole AI boom happened and
48:09
we have such amazing tools and AI founders are building, you
48:14
know, such cool stuff as well. I heard one of your podcast
48:18
about the AI the Dream stories which.
48:21
What was that cool? I know I loved it and so yeah,
48:25
I'm excited about the possibilities.
48:27
Yeah, absolutely. My daughter is a freshman in
48:31
college and she's studying business finance.
48:35
What are some other resources she's going to need when
48:38
entering a career in business that she's not going to get from
48:41
college? I think mindset, you know,
48:50
coaching, I would highly recommend.
48:52
I think we all need that. I, I don't, I don't know that if
48:55
there is anyone that doesn't need mindset coaching, We are
48:58
all conditioned, you know, in, in certain way to think and
49:02
behave and act based on our childhood experiences.
49:06
You know, the school is the things we study, the experiences
49:09
we've had. So it's always good to, you
49:12
know, have get that mindset coaching.
49:15
So you're getting rid of the stories that are not helping and
49:18
really holding on to stories that will move you forward in
49:22
the direction that you want. So I would say that is one
49:24
thing. And the second would be
49:27
understanding or learning human behavior.
49:30
I'm really fascinated about that right now and myself learning a
49:34
few things on that. But I think just really
49:37
understanding human behavior, especially with everything
49:40
that's happening with AII think one of the Super skills that we
49:45
can have is really understand how humans behave and you know,
49:49
in different situations and have that as a background.
49:52
So I would say those two would be.
49:56
Of that, you know, I don't want to give a shout out to my sweet
49:59
baby sweet baby daughter. I she's she listens to the show
50:02
and she's very she's extraordinary and in that like
50:05
kind of self belief, self power, self determination, it's built
50:09
in her, but also she really worked out it.
50:11
So I want to also give a shout out to Denver Public Schools
50:14
because she went to a school in for middle school called gals.
50:18
It was girls athletic leadership school and really it was kind of
50:22
like a feminist indoctrination program, which I'm all about.
50:28
And they really spent a lot of time like hammering on that,
50:30
like how to work through tough conversations, how to work on
50:34
relationships, how to build women up together, you know, And
50:39
as a result, you know, her, her best friends who also went to
50:42
gals are they're all of them are just some of the most
50:44
extraordinary, like forthright, confident, amazing young women,
50:50
you know, so shout out to Denver Public Schools.
50:52
But I, and I think we'll see a lot more of that.
50:55
I think, you know, aside from like all the, the, the hard
50:58
skills and of course, if you want to get that giant contract
51:02
with meta, you know, you better have your SA TS correct.
51:05
But but also more and more the, the, the field that you work in,
51:09
some of these soft skills are, are more important than ever,
51:12
especially as we start to see that the machines can do so much
51:15
of like the technical capacity. Where we're going to need to
51:18
improve is in our social skills, you know?
51:21
Exactly, exactly. That's awesome.
51:24
Yeah, I'm really proud of your daughter.
51:25
And looks like the the grade school.
51:28
Yeah, fantastic. Great school, Uma.
51:31
This has been amazing. I want to encourage everybody to
51:34
go check out the Limit, the limitlessleaders.com, where you
51:39
can see Uma's work. What's the best place for people
51:42
to connect with you online? LinkedIn I I'm on LinkedIn every
51:46
day. Nice what?
51:48
What benefits do you get out of LinkedIn?
51:52
That's my sales engine, marketing engine.
51:56
Yeah, yeah, it works great. Me too.
52:00
Sometimes, you know, a little random on on LinkedIn, but it's
52:03
fun. You can play with it a little
52:04
bit. And helps help with the brand as
52:08
well. So that's where I am.
52:11
Nice, Uma, thank you so much for coming on and having this
52:13
conversation with us. I I know I learned a ton.
52:16
Thank you so much. Same here.
52:18
It's a pleasure. Hey founders, let me ask you
52:22
this. Are you building with AI or
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Now back to the show.