Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Paul Arthur about his choice of Carnival of Monsters (2/4)

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Talks to Paul Arthur about his choice of Carnival of Monsters (2/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:37
  Good evening and welcome to a Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife,
• 0:40
  the Doctor Who Commentary Podcast.
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  My name is Paul Arthur, fresh from my triumphant appearance,
• 0:47
  talking about kablam, to talk about Carnival of Monsters with
• 0:50
  your host, the man who would love to get his hands on your
• 0:53
  magnificent auxiliary capillary pump.
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  It's Joe Ford. How are you, Joe?
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  Don't settle for your drashing. You know it was magnificent.
• 1:03
  You know your first a Kablan. We managed to talk double the
• 1:06
  length of the story, right? Lots to unpick there though.
• 1:10
  Yeah, totally. And like this story as well.
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  There's a lot to talk about, a lot to a lot of ideas.
• 1:15
  Yeah. There is a great deal of
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  thematic resonance in both stories.
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  Well, of course to academics such as ourselves are prime to
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  discuss of the repercussions of such.
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  Academics, you say? Oh yeah, yeah.
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  Who? Academics.
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  Maybe you're the academic on just the janitor around here,
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  mopping up after everybody. Oh, you've got, you've had
• 1:38
  plenty of very scholarly guests on.
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  I don't think I can match any of those guys so.
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  Hi who? Name and shame.
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  Are you asking for that? Oh, you're not talking about
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  people like Toby Haydock and, you know, lovely Rob Shearman.
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  And who's the chap who's done? Oh, and I'm sorry I've forgotten
• 1:56
  names. I did The Impossible Snowman and
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  Pyramids Mars talking about, you know.
• 2:02
  Oh, you mean Rob Valentine? Rob.
• 2:04
  Valentine, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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  Big Finish right here, isn't he? Yeah, yeah.
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  You know, so he talking with real authority about, you know,
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  the the kind of mythology and folklore around those those
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  stories found that really fascinating.
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  So I really enjoyed that. They all moan the same though
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  when you're in their laps, like they may seem like academics,
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  you know? But I don't mean Rob, please,
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  I'm not spreading any rumours. But you're right.
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  Because in a relationship, Jesus Christ, will you move us on
• 2:32
  quick? Oh yeah?
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  Well, we're we're talking about Carnival of Monsters Part 2.
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  Yeah, well, jolly time with Part 1, didn't we?
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  I hope so, yeah. Yeah, very much so.
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  It's, I mean, how can you not a fun, colourful story and yeah.
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  Who do you imagine is you know? So going back to lists again for
• 2:52
  a second, who do you imagine is the best character guest
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  character in Carnival of Monsters?
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  I love Orem. I think we we kind of we're
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  going to start talking about him last time, but we didn't quite
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  go to I think Terence Lodge in this is so watchable.
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  Everything he does, even when he's not talking is he's kind of
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  a bit fumbly. He's obviously the less
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  confident one and you know, he's he's just kind of really awkward
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  in his movements. But the way he delivers his
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  lines, he gets the best lines as well.
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  I think you know, we talked about.
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  One about being devoured. Do you know that one?
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  Oh, oh, hang on one, there's no wish to be devoured by alien
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  monstrosities, even in the course of political progress.
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  So. Funny, I didn't say anywhere
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  near as well as him. Yeah, he's he's magnificent in
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  this. I think my favorite is colic
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  only because Michael wishes single.
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  You know the bravo. He's so funny.
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  I mean, they're great, great characters.
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  I think I did have to get past that first, the shock of that
• 4:00
  first scene when I first saw this.
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  But I remember relaxing into this coming episode 2 and just
• 4:05
  laughing myself silly because they're like, sick.
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  It's like an episode of Yes Minister, you know?
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  It's like political satire with really quick, sharp dialogue
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  being delivered by great actors. Well, you know, the moment I
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  realised this was more than, there's more to it than what I
• 4:23
  was just enjoying on the surface.
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  I think I talked before about how I, I kind of came back to
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  this. I joined fandom in the 90s after
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  having been a kind of little mini fan as a, as a kid.
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  And there's a chat where I became friendly with him at the
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  time. I'll give a shout out to called
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  Michael Seeley. He's written the he's written
• 4:43
  the the biography of Douglas Canfield and Kit Peddler.
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  So he he's doing loads of good stuff now.
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  But we were talking about this one and I never met his dad, but
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  he always talked about his dad. I think he wanted his dad to be
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  maybe I'm I'm putting words in his math, Michael.
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  So, Michael, if you're listening and it's many years after the
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  the the fact apologies from getting this slightly wrong, but
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  his dad was quite an academic or quite serious fellow and he
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  wanted him to like doctor a little bit.
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  But his dad had seen carnival and he's he was able to see
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  through that kind of the pantomime, the the of the how it
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  looks and and hone in on what that tribunal are doing and go
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  yeah, this is really, really smart stuff.
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  And because Michael has said that to me, that's when I
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  started to go hang on yeah, this there is something to this.
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  And that's what how I. Got it.
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  Sometimes people have to open doors into like the extra
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  meanings and things like. That Oh yeah.
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  Even though it is sort of there, I sometimes I just don't.
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  Like, it's like when I watch Ghost Light and there's so many
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  different things happening there on so many layers, and I just
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  need someone to go, you know, that bit is about paedophilia.
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  Right. Well, yeah, yeah, I think I mean
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  anybody's I mean, I'm not, as I say, not an academic at all, but
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  like I did go to university and have written the audio essay and
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  stuff. And you do have to train
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  yourself to look at things in that way.
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  You know, like when you just even even though when we're
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  watching things as a fan is more and more involved and more
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  engaged than just a casual viewer, there's, you know, we
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  are going to lay a deeper being just just watching as a fan
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  because you you're taking the note of TV techniques or who the
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  actors are or or the direction or whatever.
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  The to, to to be kind of put my teeth back in Paul to be kind of
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  honed in on that kind of critical thinking is a different
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  skill And like it takes practice, I think.
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  And I by no means would say that I'm an expert on this, but.
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  I will pat myself on the back slightly and I don't really like
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  doing this, but I'm going to do it on this case because I've
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  I've written 2 1/2 thousand reviews, television and books
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  and I've now put out across my podcast nearly 1 1/2 thousand
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  bloody podcasts. So I think I'm sufficiently off
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  with the language of television and books, yeah.
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  And it takes that kind of that that practice, you know, you put
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  it in a practice and now it works for the podcast.
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  So yeah, absolutely. What's great is when you come
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  and do these things, yeah, it's every time with like all
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  different people is then you watch the same bit of television
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  through someone else's eyes and then you see more that I could
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  do this 100 times with carnival monsters and I'll see something
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  different through 100 different pairs of eyes.
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  Yeah, 100%, yeah. Well, I'm right.
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  Now I only want to see it through your eyes.
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  Like eyes even. Well, I would like to see highs
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  through your eyes. Shall I count us in?
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  Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, OK.
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  Well, we'll go in and in 321. In we go.
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  I think talking about TV is just the most fun I can have.
• 8:03
  Some people might think because of that a very boring endeavour,
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  but. Well, that's what everybody does
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  to some extent, isn't it? Like everybody in my office has
• 8:10
  been talking about celebrity traitors non-stop for the last
• 8:13
  few weeks and that's not something I'd ever sit down and
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  watch. But no.
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  Or me. I mean, I can I I won't watch
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  any of it because I know it will suck me in.
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  Oh yeah, that's exactly I I don't have the time to or the
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  bandwidth to devote to, to sitting down and investing all
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  that time in it because, you know, you have to watch it there
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  and then. But yeah, so yeah, I would never
• 8:31
  bother. John, Katie, get your eye line.
• 8:34
  The TARDIS is up there, OK. I love how annoyed Poe is.
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  Like hey, you've nicked my, nicked my motor.
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  Bloody hell, the whole deck swings open like that.
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  It's hard to imagine that it's such a weird line because I'd
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  I'd kind of always thought of it as like some kind of.
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  In a hole ghost. Hand, yeah, yeah.
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  But like the whole thing moving away, it's hard to kind of get
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  your head around that. So what?
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  Lift open a flap and go. Oh, yeah, hello.
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  See, now, though, now, if this was done with CGI, and of
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  course, like, I'm not saying it's a bad thing that we can
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  realise things so sophisticatedly now, but I don't
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  know, would it have the charm? You can hear they're relying on
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  other things, dialogue, acting, you know, gaudy colours.
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  I don't think it would. I don't think you'd get these
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  performances, certainly not the way that they film it these
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  days. It would be a.
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  Slicker bit of telly, but I don't know if it would have the
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  personality of this. I mean, the, the concept is
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  weird enough that it probably would still be good.
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  And I think the the the new who stories I gravitate to tend to
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  be the slightly weirder ones if you like.
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  So I think that would still work.
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  But but yeah, it would be a very different beast.
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  I've sailed into Shanghai 50 times, my boy.
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  Not so in the next bit. Yeah, maybe not.
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  Yikes. They.
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  Might RIP that bit out and use it against me sometime.
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  Yeah, more casual racism, but actually?
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  Do you know, I mean, what did you want for Christmas?
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  Do you fancy a vault coat? Oh my God, yeah, I'd like the
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  hat, I think. Yeah.
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  You see how how hot his head is at the studio?
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  Like the hat literally steams up, doesn't it?
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  So now we're we're absolutely specifically saying what's
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  happening. You're they're on ATV screen.
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  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
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  And it's that weird think because you think that people
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  wouldn't be interested in watching ATV like, you know, as
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  a fairground attraction, but actually like fairgrounds that
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  there's always been that kind of clash of technology and
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  fairgrounds. You know, this is called a mini
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  scope. It's I think the the original
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  working title of this was Peep Show, a Peep Show.
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  Like what the Butler saw is a mutoscope.
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  So I'm pretty similar kind of thing.
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  So there you go. But.
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  That's a research should. Be the research, yeah.
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  So it is kind of like that. Basically, you're watching,
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  you'd go to a fair to watch TV. Yeah, yeah.
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  The drashings, my little carnivores.
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  He says. I mean, there, when you saw the
• 11:03
  Ogroms and the Sidemen and all of that, that's so funny.
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  And it's, it's so that's so witty where he's bigging up the
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  drashing. And then you just see it like a
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  nature documentary or, or like when you go see the animal in
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  the zoo and they're just kind of like asleep.
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  All are hiding away. Call it go amazing.
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  It's good old fashioned live entertainment.
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  Does he say something about that?
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  Life in the universe is infinitely variable.
• 11:31
  I mean this stuff. Holmes just has a lyricism with
• 11:34
  his dialogue, right? He paces the dialogue in ways
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  that good character actors it rolls off the tongue.
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  Yeah, yeah. And there's no weak performances
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  in this either. Everybody's so good at
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  delivering that stuff. You know, Joe's going to run out
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  of metaphors in a minute, she said.
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  Gramophone record. Now where's goldfish going?
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  Round in a bar? Anything else?
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  Oh, yeah, she later on she goes. It's like being inside a
• 11:57
  wristwatch, doesn't she? Right.
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  Right. Yeah, when we're in the set.
• 12:00
  I suppose that's why you have a a normal person from Earth in a
• 12:04
  Doctor Who story in the future. It's so that they can make
• 12:06
  comparisons and so everyone could be OK.
• 12:09
  I get it. Well, yeah, I mean, this is,
• 12:11
  this is like the first time that he's got his ability to travel
• 12:15
  in time back, isn't it? So you're gonna need somebody
• 12:17
  who's able to kind of, yeah, make those connections.
• 12:21
  Makes the joke even better that you think Ohh he's gone back in
• 12:24
  time on earth, no? Yeah, yeah, yeah, First trip
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  away. Oh no, yeah, and and we've got
• 12:31
  again, like where all of the characters are kind of mirroring
• 12:34
  each other. So the ends of mine ends and and
• 12:35
  the Bernice humans are kind of mirrors each of each other.
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  Fog and Scherner are the same as as the doctor and Joe.
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  So fog can't he can't use the mini scope very well.
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  He doesn't know what he's doing. And and John's just, or the
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  doctor's just got his ability to travel back and instantly gets
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  it wrong. Now listen now I'm just going to
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  adjust the stupid ometer of. My end of the call.
• 13:00
  Oh wait, no, I don't need to do that.
• 13:02
  I shall turn down the horny ometer, which is often up on
• 13:05
  full volume for hamster. Yeah, Queensbury rules by
• 13:10
  Germany. The fellows got some pluck.
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  What's? The the old fella, it's weird
• 13:14
  that he's considered to be old, but yeah, I.
• 13:17
  Warned you Paul, we are used to box on my school.
• 13:20
  Yeah, well, I should tell you that I was taught by John L.
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  I did I skiddo chap. In many ways, we have the same
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  mind, Paul. Indeed, yeah.
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  Oh my God, he falls over and the doctor goes oh, good afternoon.
• 13:38
  And that Dudley's music's great here as well.
• 13:43
  Oh. Really good.
• 13:45
  I like, I like actually the music is really interesting
• 13:47
  because Dudley's kind of mixing a lot of the electronic stuff,
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  but then he gets things like this where his proper
• 13:52
  instrumentation. So yeah, it's a real kind of
• 13:55
  weird mix. Actually, this is really nicely
• 13:58
  edited. Mind you, they always can't edit
• 13:59
  better when it's on film, but it's sort of kind back and forth
• 14:03
  to them with the guns, them running close-ups on Katie
• 14:06
  Manning. It's got some pace to it, this.
• 14:08
  Right, right and you really get a sense of the geography of the
• 14:10
  ship. But like I said, saying in Part
• 14:12
  1, this is just docked like in the, you know, the middle of the
• 14:17
  Midway. So they're having to shoot
• 14:18
  around what you can see. So you, you know, you're not in
• 14:21
  the middle of the Indian Ocean. And I know like the sea is calm
• 14:25
  because then it's Maud, but you can see the sea.
• 14:29
  I think it's great. Production, yeah, 100%.
• 14:33
  Let's go with it, Oh, Paul. Major Daly can't keep up.
• 14:36
  The interesting thing with the film as well, it's like I read
• 14:41
  the Black Archive book, but I think Ian Potter wrote the Black
• 14:44
  Archive book for this story, and I read that over the last couple
• 14:47
  of weeks. And he talks about the fact that
• 14:48
  film, when you see film like that, you think this is real
• 14:51
  life because, you know, they've gone somewhere.
• 14:53
  So again, it's selling the idea that this is this is reality,
• 14:57
  you know, like then took environment.
• 14:59
  Yeah. Just blurring that kind of your
• 15:01
  understanding of what's real and what's not in the story.
• 15:03
  And the real environment is this is the most artificial
• 15:06
  environment. That's interesting.
• 15:09
  Yeah. There isn't there?
• 15:10
  Yeah, what was that? Ian Potter?
• 15:12
  Did you say I? Think that's his name and if I
• 15:13
  got the wrong story? And Ian, Ralph was listening to
• 15:16
  one of your big finishes yesterday.
• 15:18
  You know, he was very good. I don't know if he's listening.
• 15:21
  I'm addressing him directly. Yeah, I'm sure he is.
• 15:23
  He wouldn't be. Oh, he goes.
• 15:27
  I can't leave the agrometer on. Christ, the specimens start
• 15:30
  damaging. Each other and I love how they
• 15:32
  just kind of walk off. It's so funny.
• 15:35
  EMI even looks right at the doctor.
• 15:38
  He's like, oh, hello. The devil of those two and
• 15:42
  Andreas shrugs is so funny. I remember the thing, So what?
• 15:46
  The way this impressed me conceptually as a kid was how it
• 15:51
  kept opening out. So just the idea that there was
• 15:54
  1 miniaturized environment blew my mind.
• 15:57
  Then was the fact that they could go for a door from the
• 15:59
  ship to the marshland and the and the caves.
• 16:03
  My God, how many environments are there, right?
• 16:06
  But it's like, it's kind of like being a kid and imagining that
• 16:11
  people on TV have their own life.
• 16:13
  So when you're flipping over like this is a whole new.
• 16:16
  So you just changing channels and they go into literally
• 16:18
  switching. Channels, isn't it?
• 16:19
  Yeah, yeah. It's so clever, but I love this.
• 16:23
  I think this is amazing. This is pretty good set design
• 16:26
  here and and you really buy the this is the they're kind of in a
• 16:30
  inside something here. The sound quality of it, like
• 16:32
  the I don't know if I don't know if this is filmed or or had they
• 16:35
  done this, but it just sounds a little bit different.
• 16:37
  It sounds like a. Big special they've used the
• 16:39
  studio really well, haven't they Yeah because it.
• 16:41
  You think that you're already gonna see through a few bits,
• 16:44
  and then there's this big long shot.
• 16:45
  It opens up the. Whole set, yeah, yeah.
• 16:47
  Yeah, yeah. No, that's I mean I.
• 16:49
  Wonder if they've cobbled together this out of every bit
• 16:51
  of set that they've got, you know, from the Three Doctors and
• 16:54
  the Thai Monster and all of that.
• 16:55
  But yeah, it wouldn't. Surprise me.
• 16:57
  I mean for. Once it's the workings of a of a
• 17:00
  machine, right? Of an alien machine so it can
• 17:02
  look like anything you like it can.
• 17:04
  Be Yeah, you can, but it kind of makes sense, even though it's
• 17:07
  just a jumble of shapes and colour and yeah, it feels like a
• 17:12
  really interesting space for them to be in.
• 17:14
  Again, it's completely different from the from the Bernese from
• 17:17
  Into Minor and Let's Shoots. It from lots of different angles
• 17:22
  as well. Yeah, it's very smartly done.
• 17:24
  Plus you're in with because the concepts are big.
• 17:27
  I think for once Joe going what's happening is perfectly
• 17:31
  valid because we need some sort of an explanation as.
• 17:35
  To what on earth? Is going on here.
• 17:37
  And as I say, it's not to Part 3 where he knows for sure that
• 17:40
  he's in the mini scope. So he knows that there is
• 17:43
  something outside that he doesn't know that exposition.
• 17:45
  About going to the High Council and being a total person, yeah.
• 17:49
  They'll be, absolutely. Of course, that that looks
• 17:52
  amazing. And the lighting as well, the
• 17:54
  sort of pulsing lighting, like it's alive.
• 17:57
  Yeah. Yeah, fantastic set.
• 18:00
  It's the same designer who did three Doctors as well, and I
• 18:03
  really like the kind of weird off.
• 18:04
  I know a lot of people turned off by that one as well, but I
• 18:07
  really like that kind of weird artificial warmness of Omega's
• 18:10
  world, you know, all the bubbles and stuff.
• 18:12
  Oh, I like that Tinkly. Yeah, we're truly.
• 18:18
  In Panzo land now. Oh, so good.
• 18:24
  And just the fact that they're miniaturized, walking around
• 18:27
  inside the equivalent of like, I don't know, like a like a
• 18:31
  laptop, it's just wonderful. What are the functionaries doing
• 18:36
  with those enormous parcels? Well, they haven't done much.
• 18:38
  Have they? I mean, those are there in the
• 18:39
  last episode. They're very.
• 18:41
  Functional. That's why, Paul, here we are.
• 18:45
  We thought we'd be welcome on your noble planets.
• 18:48
  Is this what they try and destroy the machine now?
• 18:54
  Is at this point. Oh yes, he talks about alien
• 18:57
  creatures and that races Patrick off, isn't it?
• 18:58
  Yeah, being imported. Without a licence because the
• 19:02
  other thing, the. Other thing here 1973 when this
• 19:06
  goes out, we join in the common market.
• 19:10
  So we're kind of closer ties to Europe and there's a real real
• 19:14
  fear of rabies coming to the UK. So obviously this is talking
• 19:18
  about like bigotry of, you know, a bit, you know, inferior
• 19:23
  racism, quotes about isolationism and about bigotry.
• 19:27
  It's about that. But also it's that fear of the
• 19:30
  unknown, fear of diseases coming out, stuff's all.
• 19:33
  In US, right? Because when COVID here and it
• 19:37
  was people coming into other people's countries, all that
• 19:40
  stuff started bubbling up to the surface skin, didn't it?
• 19:43
  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
• 19:45
  That third, right, At least when I was with them, Paul, I had a
• 19:52
  few credit balls to my name, right?
• 19:54
  Yeah, never travelled by. Cargo thruster either Cheryl
• 19:58
  Halls. She's the other stand out for
• 19:59
  this for me. I think she's fabulous in this.
• 20:02
  I mean, she's easy on the eyes for me at least, but well, the
• 20:05
  idea as. Well, that Vogue and Shona are
• 20:07
  basically an avatar for the Doctor and Joe.
• 20:09
  It's the same thing, isn't it? The the sort of pompous prick
• 20:12
  and his glamorous assistant, right?
• 20:14
  Right. Questions.
• 20:15
  Yeah. And she knows.
• 20:16
  More what's going on? She knows when the machine's
• 20:18
  cocking up and he's just kind of like, clueless.
• 20:21
  Yeah, when the doctor. Comes out of the machine every
• 20:24
  time he sees her. He bows his head, doesn't he?
• 20:26
  Yeah. Oh, Shona.
• 20:27
  Hello. Watch her.
• 20:28
  What's her reactions as well? Because she's seen Pertwee and
• 20:31
  she's like, I want a bit of that, you know?
• 20:33
  Yeah, 100% yeah. Remember that Lady?
• 20:35
  From 30 Years and the Tardy Show.
• 20:37
  I mean, the doctor I'd go with the most is John Pertwee because
• 20:40
  he's so damn sexy. She goes or What does Tom Baker
• 20:46
  say? Glitters like a light bulb.
• 20:52
  Sorry. Oh, dear.
• 20:54
  Oh, there we go. So we destroyed the creatures.
• 20:56
  Yeah, well. Yeah, that's the main objective.
• 20:58
  That's the main objective. Exactly, our main is irrelevant.
• 21:02
  A moment for. Peter Holiday playing the very
• 21:05
  like he's the straight man of all of them, isn't he?
• 21:08
  And yeah, just blissful. Yeah, again, very different from
• 21:13
  his other. We know him so well from his
• 21:15
  other Doctor Who roles, but he's he's fabulous in this as well.
• 21:19
  That real sense of panic that he's the most panicky one of the
• 21:23
  three. Yeah, he's fantastic.
• 21:26
  And every time he walks in there, like at that beginning of
• 21:28
  that scenery comes in, he's like forgery.
• 21:30
  You know he's always striding him with importance when she.
• 21:34
  Does the dance and he just goes no.
• 21:38
  Those dead. Powered lines are just great.
• 21:42
  But, you know, there's no reason why that comedy had to work.
• 21:45
  You know, it it it had to be delivered by a good director and
• 21:48
  good actors. Yes.
• 21:49
  Yeah. But there's plenty of.
• 21:51
  Comment I mean go watch the time Monster, there's plenty of
• 21:53
  comedy that can bomb. And I think their appearance
• 21:56
  works in their favour as well. You know, just the the the
• 22:00
  costume and the makeup help sell who they are and you only you
• 22:04
  kind of really understand their attitudes straight away.
• 22:07
  So yeah, it's everybody kind of working together on on that to
• 22:10
  make it make it racing a Cyberman.
• 22:13
  In that Jump Hurley story what? Could have been Joe.
• 22:16
  What could have been? That's tantalizing, isn't it?
• 22:19
  Who's going to pay good credits for a BLOB in a snowstorm?
• 22:22
  Slob in a snowstorm? Yeah, they get more talk about
• 22:25
  TV. Or is this the bit?
• 22:27
  Where the where the instrument goes into the mini scope oh is.
• 22:33
  It here, Yeah, it must be coming up.
• 22:36
  I love that bit. Oh, do you know as well, another
• 22:40
  thing that Holmes does, I mean, he doesn't so many things.
• 22:42
  Well, one of the things I love that he does that goes a bit
• 22:45
  unsung is the the off screen character that's built up So
• 22:51
  President Zobs. Yeah, no, it's president.
• 22:55
  Sorry, it's Carlick brother president up.
• 22:57
  We never meet. But there's a true detailed
• 23:00
  picture built up around him just like the graph Vinder case
• 23:03
  brother in you know, took his throat.
• 23:06
  Yeah, or just like, I don't know, Mrs. Samuelson, the
• 23:09
  costume lady from tellers of Wen Cheyenne.
• 23:12
  You know, he's always talking about these off screen
• 23:14
  characters that build up the lives of the people on screen.
• 23:18
  Yeah, no, that's. Fabulous.
• 23:19
  I mean, he's really great at world building with just just
• 23:22
  the dialogue, isn't it? And yeah, you're right.
• 23:24
  And and someone like Kelek as well.
• 23:26
  He's typing into that. It's a very kind of well worn
• 23:30
  Dr. Cliche, but the the the kind of character who is trying to
• 23:35
  usurp the status quo. You know, like, so all the way
• 23:38
  back to the unearthly charge you've got, was it the calendar
• 23:42
  the caveman is trying to take over you as someone like young
• 23:46
  Silerian, you know, that that kind of character who's who's
• 23:49
  against like Zaba's obviously trying to trying to progress
• 23:52
  society a little bit. But like, Alex, I know we need
• 23:55
  to be hardline. Yeah.
• 23:57
  So that's a real Doctor Who trope anyway.
• 24:00
  But but I think you're right, having that off screen
• 24:03
  character, you don't see that relationship.
• 24:05
  I think that works really well. And there's a.
• 24:07
  There is a fine line as well, because those characters can
• 24:10
  just become people that get in the way of the plot.
• 24:15
  Yeah, I always point to Etis in the monster of Peloton.
• 24:19
  That minor. Oh, yeah, For 4 episodes, it's
• 24:22
  just going, no, I've got to blow up the city.
• 24:24
  And it's like, oh, this would be 3 episodes if you weren't
• 24:27
  around. All right.
• 24:29
  It can't. It can't.
• 24:30
  Yeah, it definitely it can. It can be very, really grating.
• 24:33
  So yeah, still has to be. Done with skill, yeah?
• 24:37
  Absolutely. Michael Wishes could definitely
• 24:39
  go there. Oh.
• 24:41
  Is this why they're talking about going sideways?
• 24:43
  Oh, the trouble is we're inside the blueprint instead of looking
• 24:46
  down on it. Oh, here we go.
• 24:48
  Yeah. Don't cope.
• 24:52
  Oh, that is fabulous. Yeah, it's great.
• 24:54
  You've got a time the. Reactions to that instrument.
• 24:56
  Really. Well, I thought I don't.
• 24:57
  Yeah, Yeah. I know, I think the CSO there
• 25:00
  looks just works beautifully, doesn't it?
• 25:03
  Silence when you. See the eye?
• 25:05
  Yeah, that's what's unnerving. That's the image.
• 25:07
  I had in my head as a kid just that kind of eye looking in and
• 25:10
  then the edit. Of him pulling himself away from
• 25:13
  the machine like it's it's visual language which is
• 25:16
  absolutely telling the story. I'm not listening to the
• 25:18
  dialogue here, but I can absolutely tell what's going on.
• 25:22
  Right, Right. Like Doctor Who is television,
• 25:26
  yes, but very often Doctor Who is built up out of words because
• 25:30
  they don't have the money. There are times when Doctor Who,
• 25:35
  it's not cinema, but it can be told in exciting visual ways.
• 25:41
  And I think this is this is one of those times.
• 25:43
  Yeah, yeah, hundred, 100%. I mean, visuals are really
• 25:47
  important, and that's to say that's what I responded to as a
• 25:49
  kid. But but yeah, you need that
• 25:52
  solid foundation, then you need that.
• 25:54
  The script above and beyond. You need the writing really,
• 25:58
  don't you, Cheryl? Hall said.
• 25:59
  You know those sort of those Diggy boppers on her head?
• 26:02
  She used to call them her planets and she'd say, oh God,
• 26:05
  they're coming to put more planets in my hair.
• 26:09
  It's such a look. I think she's fabulous.
• 26:12
  She's great. On the commentary, Have you
• 26:13
  heard the commentary for this? Oh yeah, yeah.
• 26:16
  So, Cheryl. Hall, who has got a very deep
• 26:18
  voice come the time she does the commentary and has had clearly a
• 26:23
  very good career. And Jenny Mccracken's on there
• 26:26
  as well, who plays Claire, and she's a bit more snippy, you
• 26:29
  know, and a bit right. Yeah, she cast.
• 26:32
  Cast for types, definitely, but both of them, both of them
• 26:36
  auditioned for Joe, didn't they? They were both going to be Joe
• 26:38
  Brown. I didn't.
• 26:39
  Know that? There we go.
• 26:41
  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, obviously, I
• 26:42
  think, I mean, the story Barry always told was that he
• 26:45
  auditioned everybody didn't hear like hundreds of people
• 26:47
  auditioned for that. And then Katie Manning turns up
• 26:48
  at the last minute without her glasses on, blah, blah, blah.
• 26:52
  But apparently he did, he did audition a lot of actresses and
• 26:55
  he definitely auditioned these two.
• 26:56
  I think he. Said with rings on her fingers
• 27:00
  and a fag in her mouth. That line there from Orum.
• 27:05
  Brick of brack. Brick of brack.
• 27:07
  Why does it keep changing size? Oh, it's just blissful.
• 27:14
  Oh, but I don't know if I get more enjoyment out of a Doctor
• 27:17
  Who story than this. Oh no, yeah, it really is a joy
• 27:22
  to watch. And yeah, everything about it is
• 27:24
  perfect, isn't it? There's no way of telling what
• 27:27
  diseases they brought with them and you.
• 27:30
  See, it's Pete Halliday. Like holding his mouth there.
• 27:34
  Oh God, I imagine the conservative meetings being like
• 27:38
  that. More boats have come over.
• 27:41
  No, can't think of the. Diseases.
• 27:46
  Oh come on, let's have another party go COVID.
• 27:50
  Sorry, we've become a very political podcast.
• 27:54
  But that's a beautiful cut that just happened there where he
• 27:56
  talks about like they can't break out of those circuits and
• 27:59
  the cuts to John literally kind of hacking his way through and
• 28:03
  being able to come out. And this is just amazing how we,
• 28:06
  like we talked before you come out into a completely different
• 28:09
  environment. I think it's so.
• 28:11
  I think the sets are adjoining, right?
• 28:13
  So you've got the Miniscope other side and then this part of
• 28:16
  The Cave the other, but then we just go straight out into the
• 28:19
  location, right? It just works.
• 28:21
  Cute, isn't it? And again I'm.
• 28:23
  Not watching this with any sound, and I absolutely can.
• 28:25
  I know what's happening. Yeah, yeah. 100% Well, you know
• 28:29
  if I. Was watching, say, the Rebus
• 28:30
  operation, which is massively dialogue heavy, Yeah.
• 28:33
  I'm not sure I'd know what was going on from scene to scene
• 28:36
  because it's just people coming in and out of rooms, I think.
• 28:39
  Here as well, we the, the, the is so well delineated, right?
• 28:43
  So you've got very clear groups of characters in particular
• 28:47
  places that you know, when you're on, it's minor, you know,
• 28:51
  when you're on the Bernice, you know where you're here and
• 28:54
  wherever the Moon of Grundle or wherever it is the the Jurassics
• 28:58
  live. So you know, it's very clearly
• 29:01
  laid out and you know, wherever you are at any given point.
• 29:04
  I think, and I really get, I think as a location, this is so
• 29:09
  different, so different from the normal quarry.
• 29:11
  I can really buy that the Jurassics would live here,
• 29:14
  unlike say like in in this season, you've got the Ogron as
• 29:17
  a kind of the blobby monster on a on in a quarry.
• 29:20
  And I, I can't believe that that orange bollock would live in a
• 29:23
  place like that, but I can. We don't do swamps.
• 29:26
  Enough do we? It's just this empowerment,
• 29:28
  isn't it? Yeah.
• 29:29
  Yeah, yeah, pretty much isn't it.
• 29:30
  I can't think of any others and and like just having the the
• 29:33
  bubbles in the water there that how effective just like sells it
• 29:36
  is completely sweating Joe is. Like at waist deep in the water.
• 29:39
  You know, Doctor, I'm stuck. Apparently she was, wasn't she?
• 29:43
  Yeah, she's on her. Knees, wasn't she?
• 29:45
  Sorry, Katie. We're going for a coffee break.
• 29:47
  All right. You'd be all right there.
• 29:52
  So great as well. I think it's in the next episode
• 29:55
  when the drashens get their scent because he says, you know,
• 29:57
  once they've got their scent, they won't stop until they've
• 29:59
  eaten them and he has to put his hand in.
• 30:02
  Don't. Wave them up.
• 30:05
  They might bite my fingers, right?
• 30:09
  Oh, just great. They're great favours with the
• 30:13
  children, with their gnashing and the snapping.
• 30:17
  You've got to get them out of there.
• 30:18
  They're as good as dead. Yeah, right.
• 30:21
  So now we've. Sort of been told that they
• 30:23
  haven't got a hope and so this all comes down to the
• 30:26
  realization now can they pull off the drashings?
• 30:29
  Yes, I think they do. It's.
• 30:32
  Definitely better than the dinosaur in Part 1.
• 30:35
  I mean, it's still. Clearly, but it's a great
• 30:37
  design. Look at those nashing fabulous
• 30:39
  design. Dog jaw.
• 30:41
  Teeths and a big sticky eyes. What's really?
• 30:44
  Good about it is the way that you can see it moving in the
• 30:47
  shots where it's kind of crawling away, you know?
• 30:50
  Yeah, I can buy it Smashing. Through the wall pole in slow
• 30:54
  motion. Oh, with the?
• 30:55
  Roar. Yeah.
• 30:56
  And if that roar becomes, like the soundtrack for the rest of
• 30:59
  the story, almost, isn't it? Like, yeah, I like the fact that
• 31:01
  they look. Quite happy, you know, they're
• 31:03
  like, oh, hello. We don't have.
• 31:05
  Visitors here too often now. I'm terribly sorry, but I'm
• 31:09
  quite peckish so I'm going to have to eat you.
• 31:14
  Oh, does it end on show? No, it ends on the monster.
• 31:17
  Great. Yeah, look at wonderful.
• 31:21
  It's like watching a Ray Harry Howson movie.
• 31:23
  Oh. Absolutely.
• 31:24
  Yeah. Yeah, I mean that.
• 31:26
  Is good for the money. Top that's.
• 31:28
  Another top cliffhanger that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 31:32
  I think. And it's it's the traditional
• 31:35
  monster cliffhanger, but like kind of in the middle of the
• 31:38
  story rather than at the end of Part 1.
• 31:40
  So just kind of flipping on his head, you know, doing everything
• 31:44
  slightly different to where you're doing a normal story
• 31:46
  somehow, Paul. That was even better than Part
• 31:48
  1. You know, all of that went on
• 31:50
  into minor. All of that running around in
• 31:53
  the mini scope, you know, all that dialogue about going back,
• 31:56
  going sideways. Oh, it's just glorious.
• 32:00
  Well, how on earth will the Doctor and Joe Grant escape from
• 32:03
  the drashings? Indeed, yes.
• 32:06
  And will there be drashing tongue on tongue action as well?
• 32:09
  Certainly I. Was like, now look it.
• 32:11
  Don't you think you're getting out of doing the list at the end
• 32:13
  of this episode? No.
• 32:14
  Let's try. I'll see.
• 32:15
  You're trying to end this, right?
• 32:18
  Let's see. Now let's do.
• 32:21
  OK. Your top three.
• 32:22
  I'd love to meet them at a Doctor Who convention.
• 32:26
  Oh. Blimey, dead or alive?
• 32:29
  OK. So I guess I'll stick with
• 32:32
  people I haven't seen over the years because there's actually
• 32:35
  quite a few big names that I I've never done.
• 32:40
  I like one name jumps straight away jumping out.
• 32:43
  And I probably would like to to see them because in a way they
• 32:45
  were my doctor as a kid would be Pete Davison.
• 32:49
  And I don't know, just the opportunity hasn't arisen over
• 32:52
  the years. But yeah, I think I would like
• 32:55
  to see, see Peter. He's a born.
• 32:57
  Businessman Paul, I saw him recently and I was like, oh, can
• 33:01
  I have a picture? I said, I'll actually not, I've
• 33:02
  changed my mind. I'll have a video.
• 33:04
  And he leaned across, and he went.
• 33:05
  That will be more, you know, that's.
• 33:08
  Fine. Well, you know, he's a savvy guy
• 33:12
  in the play the system. Yeah, play.
• 33:15
  And unlike anybody on the convention circuit these days,
• 33:17
  they're all, they're all trying to, to make a few quid.
• 33:21
  I mean, I'm back in the day. That I remember.
• 33:23
  Back in the day you could just rock up and get a tick nature on
• 33:26
  whatever you wanted, but sadly those days are not not around
• 33:31
  anymore. Who?
• 33:34
  Oh Blimey, who else? That's it.
• 33:41
  Out of everyone in, I mean this is.
• 33:45
  That's a big ass Joe. I mean, maybe somebody like
• 33:48
  somebody that I would never have had the chance to, to meet, like
• 33:52
  Jacqueline Hill or somebody like that.
• 33:55
  Just somebody who didn't do a lot of convention appearances.
• 33:57
  But I, when they did, I, I wasn't there wasn't, I wasn't
• 34:02
  part of fandom. And that time during the 80s
• 34:04
  when she might have done it, Yeah.
• 34:06
  So yeah, that would be fascinating.
• 34:08
  I think I would like to spend more time and somebody who I
• 34:12
  don't know necessarily knew how, who loves how loved she was in
• 34:17
  that in the role of Barbara. You know, I see, like we talked
• 34:22
  a bit about the Instagram page that I have.
• 34:25
  And over the years of doing that, I see a lot of younger
• 34:28
  fans coming to the classics and they all gravitate to Barbara
• 34:33
  and Ian. They they love that pairing.
• 34:36
  So it's, I think, Barbara. Is an unusually modern character
• 34:43
  in the 60s. There's moments, but she's she's
• 34:46
  one of the most competent female characters we ever had in
• 34:49
  Doctor. Yeah, yeah.
• 34:51
  Hundred, 100%. And yeah, so that would be
• 34:54
  fascinating because I would like to see if she knows how kind of
• 34:57
  popular she has remained really and.
• 35:00
  And kind of become even more popular, I'd say, over the last
• 35:02
  few years. And who else?
• 35:05
  I'm sorry. Oh, I'll say the name of
• 35:12
  somebody I have seen at a convention just because it was a
• 35:15
  funny encounter and that was his name.
• 35:20
  Well, he goes by the name Rocky. I think his name is Alan
• 35:22
  Marshall. And he's a VXVFX guy in the 80s
• 35:27
  and still his. Favorite ever convention
• 35:30
  encounter. It was a kid and he met him and
• 35:33
  he is responsible for him wanting to work in television
• 35:36
  and he's wow career, okay. I'd like to speak to him again
• 35:41
  because the one time I bumped into him, he was a popsicon on
• 35:45
  the 30th anniversary and it was the Friday before the
• 35:50
  conventions died. And me and a bunch of friends
• 35:52
  were just in the bar in the hotel and.
• 35:55
  And he came in and he was completely pissed and he just
• 35:58
  saw us and he came over to us and just started chatting and he
• 36:00
  was just just a funny encounter. He told us how the Doctor is the
• 36:06
  second best science fiction character of all time because
• 36:09
  Captain, because and his this was his reason, Captain Kirk was
• 36:13
  #1 because Captain Kirk was a shagger and the Doctor did his
• 36:16
  shagging in the past and now he's kind of put that to to bed.
• 36:21
  And it was just like hysterical. It was just like a funny kind of
• 36:24
  15 minute encounter with this, with this one bloke.
• 36:27
  So I'd probably like to just do that again or to see if if he's
• 36:31
  still like that. I was trying to think.
• 36:34
  Who my 3 would be, but actually tying it into carnivore, I think
• 36:37
  I'd probably say Jon Pertwee because I would like to tell Jon
• 36:41
  Pertwee. I think he was a very good actor
• 36:43
  because I don't think he was ever convinced that he was right
• 36:47
  now he'd definitely. Like to tell?
• 36:48
  Barry Letts that he was just the most wonderful human being on
• 36:51
  the planet and the more documentary footage I see of
• 36:54
  him, the more I'm convinced of that.
• 36:56
  And I'd like to say to Terence Dix, man, you was a rack onto
• 37:00
  fucking hell. You could tell a story his I
• 37:04
  live by his rule, you know. What's it?
• 37:05
  Never let a truth get in the way of a good story.
• 37:08
  You know what? I'll have the episode there on
• 37:13
  that.