Latest / NO FILTER / _Full on assault__ Harvard commencement clouded by Trump legal battle(MP3_160K)

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_Full on assault__ Harvard commencement clouded by Trump legal battle(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I want to bring an NBC's Antonia Hilton, who was
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: at Harvard in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Peter Bakery's chief White House
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: correspondent for the New York Times, and an MSNBC political
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: analyst with me here in studio. MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Rubin and James Sample, law professor at Hofstra and former
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: attorney at the Brendan Centers for Justice Democracy Program. Lisa,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: give us a rundown what happened in court today.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: What happened in court today, Chris, was very short, and
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: you recapped it really nicely. The judge leaving in place
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: a temporary restraining order, although telling the parties that they
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: may negotiate some language about what that restraining order looks like.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: The reason today, though was so short and wasn't what
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: we expected, is because at the eleventh hour, the administration
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: sent a letter to Harvard doing what it should have
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: done all along, which is informing them of their notice
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: to withdraw Harvard from the program that allows that to
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: enroll foreign students. You'll remember that a few weeks ago
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: the administration went to Harvard and said, we are immediately
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: revoking your certification under the CEVP program. That's the program
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: that allowed universities all over the country to enroll foreign students.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Now they've sort of gone back on that and are
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: abiding by the regulatory framework that exists for when you
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: can terminate a university's program. In light of that, Harvard
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: now has thirty days to go back to the Department
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: of Homeland Security with evidence, including sworn declarations and otherwise
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: to say no, we have complied with our obligations. But
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  Speaker 2: that also means that a preliminary injunction would not have
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: been appropriate because there's still process to play out between
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  Speaker 2: Harvard and the Department of Homeland Security.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: And James I noted that Harvard's attorney seemed to be
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: looking for more from that this is a chaotic situation
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: for the university, for the students. So is there more
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: that the judge could and maybe should have done.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: Well, there's more that can be done in the future,
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: But I think that the judge made the proper decision
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: in terms of what she did today, in the sense that, as.
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: Lisa said, there are still processes.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: To play out, and in a sense, the tro here
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: was not just about constitutional issues First Amendment and the
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: Fifth Amendment do process, but also about the Administrative Procedure Act,
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: which basically says, statutorially, there's a process.
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  Speaker 4: That you, the government need to follow.
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  Speaker 3: It's not that the government doesn't potentially have the power
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: to do some of the things that it's trying to
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: do here. Potentially they do, but they have to follow
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: the processes that are set forth in the law. And
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  Speaker 3: the judge is essentially saying on Friday, that didn't happen here.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: Now the government, faced with that ruling, face with the
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: specter of further consequences, further adverse rulings.
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  Speaker 4: Is essentially we're at a pause. This is a stay.
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: That's a totally appropriate thing for a tro and essentially
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: saying come back to us, we'll see where we are.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: It may be thirty days.
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: It may be less than that.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: But I think it's appropriately cautious on the part of
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: the judge to say we'll see before we make any
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  Speaker 3: further rules. Harvard's not in an enviable position here, even
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: though they're likely to keep winning.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: They would argue they're in a terrible position, and then
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: their students are in absolutition. Right, Well, let's go to Harvard, Antonio.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: What is the mood on campus today? It is graduate day,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: after all, should be all celebratory.
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, the good news is a lot of
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: the students here are still celebrating, and there is this
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: sort of air of defiance baked into all of that.
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: There is not a single person here who is not
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: aware of the split screen that they're here in the
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: Harvard Yard reflecting on the last four or so years
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: of their lives, while there are lawyers in there trying
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: to defend essentially the rights of other students to come
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: to this campus and engage in the same community.
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: Everyone.
• 3:31
  Speaker 5: That's on everyone's mind at the moment. The reality is, though,
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: that even with this restraining order in place, even if
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: Harvard keeps winning, it has destabilized everything. So if you
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: are say seventeen or eighteen years old, and you were
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: planning to come to the United States for the very
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: first time this fall, no matter what you're really told,
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  Speaker 5: you're probably a bit shaken right now by this news.
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  Speaker 5: And in fact, that was on the mind of one
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  Speaker 5: international student that I spoke to this morning before he
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: processed to graduation. Take a little listen to our conversation.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Trump threat against Harvard are truly hanging over this.
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  Speaker 1: Without the international students Harvard is not Harvard anymore.
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  Speaker 2: You know, we might be the last international fast in
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  Speaker 2: a while.
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  Speaker 4: Everyone is truly united and realized.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: So that you know what Trump is doing.
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  Speaker 1: It's like it's a full lot assault that at university.
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  Speaker 5: We saw President Alan Garber get a standing ovation this morning.
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: He got a standing ovation yesterday at another pre graduation celebration.
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  Speaker 5: He's become something of a folk hero now here in
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  Speaker 5: the Boston area, and not just to Harvard students and
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: faculty members, but actually to people at all the universities
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  Speaker 5: that are very afraid that the kind of conflict that
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  Speaker 5: we see playing out at this campus is soon going
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  Speaker 5: to come to them. What I keep hearing from faculty,
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  Speaker 5: even conservative faculty who perhaps agree with the Trump administration
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: on some of their accusations or broader idea, is that
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: what's at stake here is are we going to allow
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  Speaker 5: the president of the United States to be able to
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  Speaker 5: tell private or public institutions of higher learning what they
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  Speaker 5: can teach, who they can hire and give tenure two
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  Speaker 5: and really.
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  Speaker 4: Reshape and try.
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  Speaker 5: To mold schools into their specific ideological project. Everyone on
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  Speaker 5: both ends of the spectrum here at this school, in
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  Speaker 5: this area, they reject that, and certainly schools with fewer
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  Speaker 5: resources than Harvard has, they're really looking to this school
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  Speaker 5: to stay in the fight. And so I had a
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  Speaker 5: chance to speak with someone in Harvard leadership and what
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  Speaker 5: they said is, no matter how bruising this process may be,
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  Speaker 5: the reality is they feel that they have to do it.
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  Speaker 5: They have no other choice because of what is at
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  Speaker 5: stake here.
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  Speaker 1: Chris, no doubt the stakes are high, Antonia, Thank you
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  Speaker 1: for that, James. According to the Harvard Crimson they interviewed
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  Speaker 1: the person who's in charge of the international program there,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: and here's part of what was said. Students skipped graduation ceremonies,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: canceled international travel, and in some cases began seeking transfer.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Some also reported fears of being forced to return to
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  Speaker 1: countries where they face active conflict or political persecution.
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  Speaker 4: Did they have.
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  Speaker 1: Reason to be afraid because this hearing, again, while it
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  Speaker 1: may be legally appropriate, was not necessarily helpful to them
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  Speaker 1: and the way they wanted.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: It to be. I think that's a very well framed question, Chris.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, the students here are collateral damage in the
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: Trump administration's personal vendetta against an institution and against institutions
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  Speaker 3: of higher learning in general. Right, the students are the
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: ones who will suffer the consequences, but so will American
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: soft power. We've seen this in other contexts as well.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: You know.
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  Speaker 3: Bringing it's not just that these students come to the
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: United States and then you know, do wonderful things in
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  Speaker 3: our universities and help our research and help grow the
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  Speaker 3: American the American expertise in.
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  Speaker 4: All manner of fields.
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  Speaker 3: It's that they then turn to their homeland after spending
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: time here in the United States with a better view
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  Speaker 3: of the United States.
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  Speaker 4: This is a form of soft power.
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  Speaker 3: It's the kind of thing that the Fulbright program was
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: meant to in the Marshall Plan. I mean, this is
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  Speaker 3: part and parcel of American soft power and building the
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: reputation in addition to building the expertise around the globe.
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  Speaker 3: And so the students here, Yeah, they have every reason
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  Speaker 3: to be afraid because the administration has proven time and
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  Speaker 3: again they're not interested in the individuals who are collateral damage.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: Peter All.
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  Speaker 1: This is happening as the administration is pushing a much
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: broader effort to that all international students. In fact, we
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  Speaker 1: learned late yesterday from Secretary of State Marco Rubio. They're
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: going to aggressively revoke Chinese student basis, and the President
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  Speaker 1: actually talked about all of it just yesterday.
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  Speaker 6: We want to know where those students come. Are they troublemakers?
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  Speaker 6: What countries do they come? And we're not going to
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  Speaker 6: if somebody is coming from a certain country and they're
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  Speaker 6: one hundred percent fine, which I hope most of are.
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  Speaker 4: But many of them won't be.
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  Speaker 6: You're going to see some very radical people that taking
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  Speaker 6: people from areas of the world that are very radicalized,
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  Speaker 6: and we don't want them making trouble in our country.
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  Speaker 1: Or maybe they're fleeing the radicalization. So Peter It begs
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  Speaker 1: the question, does the White House have a plan to
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: uncover these supposed troublemakers? When they talk about vetting social
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: media or digging into people's backgrounds, do they have any
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: real plan or idea of what exactly they're looking for.
• 8:29
  Speaker 7: Well, they haven't identified any kind of standards yet at
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  Speaker 7: this point that would be used across the board in
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  Speaker 7: which you could therefore understand what the policy is. They're
• 8:39
  Speaker 7: simply saying that they're going to make their own determinations.
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  Speaker 7: We've seen these four months since Trump took office again,
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  Speaker 7: individual cases where they have scooped up international students or
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  Speaker 7: people here on visas from other countries based on apparently
• 8:53
  Speaker 7: they're free expression of ideas that don't suit what the
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  Speaker 7: administration wants to be said in this country. People who
• 9:01
  Speaker 7: support causes that the administration doesn't agree with, people who
• 9:05
  Speaker 7: wrote a student who wrote an editorial, co wrote an
• 9:07
  Speaker 7: editorial in the university student paper. That was enough to
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  Speaker 7: scoop them up and say we're going to send you back.
• 9:14
  Speaker 7: So you know, they've made very clear that they are
• 9:18
  Speaker 7: suspicious of people from other parts of the country. What's
• 9:20
  Speaker 7: really interesting arether parts of the world. What's really interesting
• 9:22
  Speaker 7: is that I think that a lot of people had
• 9:24
  Speaker 7: the impression, and certainly this was the impression that Trump
• 9:26
  Speaker 7: people encouraged when he ran for office, that was his
• 9:30
  Speaker 7: crackdown on immigration, was crackdown on illegal immigrations. The people
• 9:33
  Speaker 7: who were here legally had nothing to worry about with him.
• 9:37
  Speaker 7: But in fact, actually what we've seen in the four
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  Speaker 7: months since he took office again is a much more
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  Speaker 7: wide scale attack on immigration more broadly, including people who
• 9:45
  Speaker 7: were here legally under various programs, either student visas, under
• 9:48
  Speaker 7: refugee programs, under temporary protective status programs, and time and
• 9:52
  Speaker 7: time again, this administration may clear that they're suspicious of
• 9:55
  Speaker 7: people here, even legally, and I think that they are
• 9:59
  Speaker 7: trying to you, expand the net as far as they
• 10:02
  Speaker 7: can