Latest / The Spark Podcast: Nashville / Brandon Edwards | How Great Leaders Build Great Teams

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Brandon Edwards | How Great Leaders Build Great Teams · The Spark Podcast: Nashville

0:00
it's a terrible analogy, but I think it's like changing a golf swing. Right?
0:02
We've I've only become a golfer because I'm now mid 50 years white man.
0:06
Right. So I guess we're supposed to do that.
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But you know, you change
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a golf swing like it's, it gets way worse before it gets better.
0:14
And it's months and months and then all of a sudden it happens, right?
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But when you're in the middle of your thing
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and I'll just go back to where I was.
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But there's a reason that you changed it.
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And I think,
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I think many business decisions are like that too, where it's like
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things are rarely as good or bad as they seem in the moment.
0:28
So just give it a little bit of time to play out.
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And if you made the decision
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for the right reasons, it needs time to be able to fulfill.
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On Creative Assembly's The Sparks podcast.
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Our mission is to amplify Nashville's diverse creative voices, foster growth
0:44
through shared journeys and inspire a city that thrives on collaboration.
0:48
And now here's the spark.
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Hello, everyone.
0:51
Welcome to the spark.
0:53
I'm your host, Mark Scrivener.
0:55
And today I'm here with Brandon Edwards, the former CEO of Revive Health.
1:00
And since selling revive.
1:02
Brandon, I know you've started Unlock Health.
1:04
I know this is going to be an amazing episode.
1:06
Just,
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there's going to be a lot of people out there
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that are going to want to hear your journey.
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And I really appreciate you being here.
1:13
And, and, given to the Nashville creative community on the Spark podcast.
1:17
Thanks for having me on, I appreciate it.
1:18
Yeah. Awesome.
1:19
Well, Brandon, just as we kick this off, maybe you could just take us
1:23
through your journey. Where did you get started?
1:25
How did you get into the advertising world and what got you to
1:28
where you're at today?
1:30
Yeah.
1:30
So I did my undergrad at UC Santa Barbara and,
1:34
thought I wanted a career in politics.
1:36
And so in, in 1992,
1:40
moved drove across country to DC with about $10 in my pocket
1:44
and, took an internship on the Hill as well as doing some other work.
1:49
Did that for a minute, came back
1:51
to a district role, and then eventually ran campaigns for a little bit.
1:55
And frankly, I thought that might sort of be the career.
1:58
Like, I really I love the rough and tumble of politics,
2:00
which, to be fair, was very different than it is today.
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It was much more collegial.
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You could, you know, you could
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you could fight with people in a campaign and then go have drinks with them.
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That evening it was just a little different situation.
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But then I got married and,
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we, had kids almost immediately.
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And the idea of the hours
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and all the things that were required in politics and frankly, this
2:23
the unpredictability of it didn't suit what we were trying to do with our lives.
2:27
So, was at I was at an agency that did both political campaigns
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and public affairs and crisis communications work for a while.
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Did that for a minute, and then, ended up
2:39
running Crisis Communications for Tenet Healthcare, a big hospital company
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that at the time was headquartered in Santa Barbara, where I lived.
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And I did three years in that role while I finished my MBA.
2:50
Came out of MBA, was working in a corporate strategy and ventures
2:54
group for tenet, which was a ton of fun.
2:57
Paul Khuzwayo, who is the CEO of a medicine, was my
3:00
I was the CEO of medicines, was my last boss of tenant is a close friend.
3:03
Great guy.
3:04
It did so much for my career, and I'm really grateful to him.
3:08
Went back to the agency I'd been at previously, but this time as an owner.
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Built a health care practice, and then the 2008 recession hits,
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and, that firm was one third real estate,
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one third energy and natural resources, one third health care.
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And a month later it was 70% health care.
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And, through a variety of circumstances,
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which I'm happy to discuss, if you find it interesting.
3:33
Just had a difference of priorities
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and approach to business with the majority owner of that firm.
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And so I offered to buy out the health care practice, which became revive.
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So built out based bought a practice I'd helped to build,
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and formed Revi, which allowed us to separate from that firm,
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but also provide proceeds to that firm so that firm could survive the recession.
3:56
And they did.
3:56
And, and we started revive and things kind of took off from there.
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So, we started that firm, September 1st of oh nine and,
4:07
relocated the corporate headquarters as well as my family here.
4:10
We I think we opened an office here in February of 11
4:14
and then moved my family here the summer of 12, just given sort of
4:17
the kids ages and where they were in school.
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That was it.
4:20
Did you move here, relocate because of the health care scene in Nashville or.
4:26
But that's why we opened the office.
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So, yeah, we were it's sort of hard for us to put ourselves
4:30
in the mental space of what was going on in 2009 ten.
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But for those of us who remember, it was pretty brutal, right?
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I mean, it was like you couldn't take a bank
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loan, you couldn't buy or sell a house, you couldn't find a job.
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If you had one, you were thrilled you had one.
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And we had started a health care marketing communications firm
4:48
in Santa Barbara, which is not exactly a hotbed of health carry over.
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Yeah.
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Overall, and, and so we decided to open an office here largely
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so we could recruit people, and I did I'll give my wife 100% credit for this.
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Like most things,
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I came home from that trip when we were scouting out
5:04
whether to open an office here because it was sort of here or Chicago
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at the time, is we thought Chicago was sort of associations and health
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services here was, you know, mothership of health care,
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but it's a little different place.
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In 20 1011, and I came home from
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that trip, you know, rolled in on a Friday night at like midnight.
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And she kind of literally said, how'd it go?
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And I said, oh, good, I think we're going to open an office in Nashville.
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And she said, I think we should move there.
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And I'm like, look, I don't know what you're talking about.
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Right? Like we we bought this house.
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It's underwater at this point, right?
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Because it was 2010 or 2011.
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And and she said,
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well, would you be home more if we were there than if we're
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in Santa Barbara and you'd see the kids more
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and not travel quite as much because I was on the road a lot.
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And I said, well, yeah, of course.
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And she said, well, why don't you just like, track that for a few months?
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And if I'm writing, you'd be home a lot more.
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We should move.
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And she's got to be, like, the only person ever to volunteer
5:56
to leave Santa Barbara, right?
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I mean, you usually you'd
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you'd trample a small child to get to stay in Santa Barbara if you could.
6:02
And, and so we sure enough, kept track of it and it moving here
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not only allowed the business to just thrive and grow, but,
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like a purely personal level, I probably reduced my travel by 30 to 50% because.
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Because, you know, it's such an easy airport, it's a great city.
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And, you know, about 80% of our business was east of the Rockies.
6:22
Yeah.
6:23
Well, you know, you've built like, Revive Health was definitely one of the
6:27
biggest health care, you know, marketing agencies, very well-regarded in town.
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I know your reputation has been amazing through that journey.
6:36
At what point did you know, maybe it was like, hey,
6:39
we we've built it to a point where, you know, maybe it's time to to sell.
6:45
Yeah.
6:45
Well, I appreciate the comment too, because I, I don't I mean, I don't feel
6:49
like I built it, I feel like we did, I mean, I had to take responsibility.
6:54
It didn't go well, but but the fact that it did, thank God
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we had that, you know, we one of the things I learned
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from the previous firm that I was at,
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I mentioned that sort of relationship with the majority owner.
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Was that having clarity about why
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the business exists is absolutely critical from day one.
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And I think many firms sort of become
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lifestyle firms, but almost by accident,
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because there isn't a clear plan for exit for the for the owner or owners.
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And I think, and I sense zero of this with you.
7:27
So just to be clear, that I do think for some people
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it becomes a little bit of an ego exercise, right?
7:33
They have their name on the door, they're on boards and they're important.
7:36
And people pay attention to them. And I get it.
7:38
I mean, we're all we're all just people, right?
7:41
We're victim to that.
7:42
We were very clear with Revi from day one.
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The firm was being built to be sold and and we were open with staff about that.
7:49
It was in our very first strategic plan.
7:51
September 1st, 2009.
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We didn't establish a time frame.
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It was like, we'll know when it's time.
7:58
And we were approached a handful of times prior to eventually selling,
8:01
and the answer was always no.
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And then, strangely, I think most people would assume
8:06
you go to sell because something went wrong, right?
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Like you run into some problem.
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Ours was exactly the opposite.
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We came off a year, we grew 60% one year, and we all kind of looked around
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and said, wouldn't it be great to do business with some people
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who've done this before, who've like, scaled an enterprise?
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We were only 10 million in revenue when we sold.
8:24
And, we ended up running a very nontraditional process,
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which I'm again happy to talk about, if you're interested in that.
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But, you know,
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it was it was really about finding the right
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cultural fit, the right strategic fit, and the right financial fit.
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And in that order, and,
8:44
and we just kind of knew it was time and I didn't make the decision by myself.
8:48
In fact, it wasn't even limited to shareholders.
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We opened it up to our entire executive team at the time was like 12 or 13 people.
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And the desire to pursue something was unanimous at that point.
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So, it wasn't like we were doing it over people's objections or something.
9:02
It provided a very nice return to the shareholders. I'm.
9:05
I'm grateful for that.
9:06
But more than anything is I think at the time it was the absolute
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best thing we could do for the business. Yeah, yeah.
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And I know we've talked in the past and just,
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you know, looking from the outside, you had a super solid like executive team
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that, you know, I know you you'd grown and and they were all a huge part of this.
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So, I know it wasn't just you, but, you know, I also love
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how you're so open and authentic, and you just are strategic
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about the way you think about, you know, even the sell of revive health care
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and how you took everything into consideration as you sold it.
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I've talked to so many people about selling an agency,
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and, you know, nobody really talks it like you do at that level.
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And not really a question there.
9:50
I just would love you to know that, I appreciate that.
9:54
I mean, I think,
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oh, I mean, one it I think it's, I'm not smart enough to remember all my lies.
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So it's just easier.
10:00
It's easier if you just tell the truth up front.
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But but I think beyond that too, is, you know,
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I think people, even if people don't necessarily love all your decisions,
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they respect it when you're direct and honest with them about it.
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And I knew there were people that didn't want us to sell revive.
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I mean, there's a part of me that didn't want to sell it.
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There's a part of me that feels like this is yours.
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And, you know, and
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and I think you always have to hold in balance sort of the monetary
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with the other impacts.
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Right.
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Like, does this provide better career path for people?
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Does this allow people to grow or take on,
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you know, different kinds of work or whatever it is and,
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and I think if people are really being honest with one another about it,
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they'll put all of that out on the table.
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You know what I have a problem with mostly, and you've heard
10:42
this plenty is when people say, I'm
10:43
selling the business and nothing's going to change.
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It's like, well, nothing's going to change. Why are you selling it?
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Like, just keep, keep doing what you're doing.
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And the reality is what you're selling it
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to provide a liquidity event for the owners.
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There's nothing wrong with that.
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I don't think it's a terribly motivating answer for the rest of the team.
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But it's a completely reasonable thing to do, right?
11:01
You take a lot of risk.
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You deserve the opportunity for a reward in that.
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Yeah, well, you created a lot of good wealth for your team, and,
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no, you you know, they all had a little bit of a stake in it, as you exited.
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And also, you know, you had to stay on for a while
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to earn out the, you know, all this stuff.
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So it was five years, and you, you know, you worked with them for five years.
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And normally you hear after about a year that the founder goes, I'm checking that.
11:30
Yeah.
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And, something, something usually happens.
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But, you stayed on for five years and grew it significantly over that
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five years, maybe talk through that journey and maybe
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what what it was like to work for another company.
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But you're still running.
11:45
Yeah. Yeah.
11:46
Yeah.
11:48
So I you're you're you're dead on.
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So we did a five year out.
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So 2020 was the final year of my earnout.
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I can't tell you how, like, disorienting and bizarre that was.
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And we had a heck of a year that year, we grew,
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like, 24%, I think in 2020.
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Pivoted meaningfully in the middle of that.
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But yeah, I think and I actually stayed on for another
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six months to CEO to mid 21 and then another 18 months
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as executive chair, which is basically what they do with you
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when they don't know what to do with you. Right.
12:21
Like you just get
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sort of placed on a shelf somewhere, break glass in case of emergency, I guess.
12:27
I'll say this to begin to like, we had a great experience with the buyer.
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They were they're good people.
12:33
They acted in good faith.
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They treated us very fairly.
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Like, I have nothing negative to say.
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And I know many people have really bad experiences.
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I'm happy to share what happened after that
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because there were some changes in the business subsequent.
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But, but I'm nothing but good things to say, I don't know.
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I don't know that I ever really felt like I was working for them,
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and I don't mean that disrespectfully, but because we were in an earnout
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when you're in that earnout, there's a period of time
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where you're still acting largely autonomously.
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I would say the only two things we really integrated
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were, financial reporting and technology.
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Right, which are all about compliance and,
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and, and protecting and protecting the business from risk.
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But, you know, there's kind of a, in an earnout
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especially it's kind of a barbed wire fence that goes up around the firm, right,
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that says, hey, this is still yours to run.
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And there's a whole bunch of things that we as the buyers can't do.
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If it's going to have any financial impact on your performance,
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which is all perfectly reasonable.
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So I sort of got spoiled in that I was bought and I had a boss,
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but I largely operated autonomously with very, very limited issues.
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And nor did they infringe on that.
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Like I as I say, I think they they acted in good faith.
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I hope we did as well.
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And had a great experience with it and would recommend them, frankly,
13:56
as a buyer to almost anyone.
13:58
Like we had a we had a very good experience.
13:59
Most of the people
14:00
that did our deal have since retired or moved on in their careers.
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So there's not not a lot of those folks that are that are still there, but,
14:08
yeah, it was it was probably good sort of getting my feet wet
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and that they were almost more like a board than they were
14:16
a direct boss, which is not everyone's experience in, in or out.
14:21
I can't say enough about the team that we had that like,
14:23
you've mentioned them a couple times as well,
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when there was a group of people there
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that would have killed or died for each other
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and that's really uncommon in life when you find that, you know,
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some of my closest long term relationships came out of that, out of that work,
14:36
and people that I either
14:37
still get to work with in some capacity or just are still friends with me.
14:41
Yeah.
14:42
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15:38
Well, you know, you've mentored so many people.
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I mean, your executive team and, you know, others out in the community,
15:45
even myself or, you know, I know you helped me to mentor you through it.
15:50
We're just friends through a ton.
15:51
But, but, you know, I guess in that early journey, like,
15:55
did you ever have, like, do you look back and go, oh, man, these.
15:58
I had these couple mentors
16:00
that really helped change the trajectory of who you are.
16:03
Yeah. There.
16:04
I won't do all of the personal ones because there's plenty of that.
16:08
I mean, I don't think, first of all, I think anybody that has a successful exit
16:12
or even a successfully runs a company
16:14
if they don't admit it, a fair amount of it is luck.
16:16
They're not being honest. Right.
16:18
I think you can like you can work as hard as you want,
16:20
but some of it's timing being in the right place at the right time
16:23
and you know, and just sometimes just dumb luck, right?
16:26
Sometimes you
16:26
sometimes the thing you think you thought you wanted the worst in the world
16:30
was actually the thing that would have been the worst for you.
16:32
Right? And you don't find it out until later.
16:34
There's there's three people that I'll mention and I'll try to do it
16:38
just briefly for the interest of time.
16:41
So one, I would say very close,
16:45
mentor and friend to me is a guy named Roger Fisher.
16:48
Roger had, built a firm called Fisher Health,
16:51
which is sort of the equivalent of revive for med device and health technology
16:55
firms. It's based in LA.
16:57
He's ten years older than I am.
16:59
He had sold his firm exactly ten years before.
17:02
And he was so extraordinarily generous with his time.
17:07
Like I would consider him a close friend to this day.
17:09
And he's been retired for some time.
17:10
The last day of his earnout was his 50th birthday,
17:13
and that was the last day he worked.
17:15
Which means he did.
17:16
He did well for himself. He was incredible.
17:20
I would say the second person actually preceded Roger.
17:25
And I would say this was probably less about mentoring overtly and more about,
17:29
you know, you have those people you worked for
17:31
that you'll always remember the guy named Brooks Firestone, started
17:35
Firestone Winery for probably some of the listeners
17:38
when the Firestone Brewery family started that as well.
17:40
He is the grandson of Harvey Firestone, who founded Firestone Tire and Rubber.
17:45
But he moved to California and sort of took a risk on
17:48
everything to start the first winery in the San Luis Valley.
17:51
And he hired me to run his first campaign or my first campaign.
17:55
Excuse me, it was his second, and I will.
17:58
In fact, I just saw him.
18:00
He's coming up on 90, and I just saw him a few weeks ago out in Santa Barbara.
18:05
And, I learned so much from him on just on, frankly, how to treat people,
18:10
but also, I think how to treat people and how to balance that
18:13
with the importance of family,
18:14
which he was just amazing at and is incredibly close with his family.
18:19
The third, and I'll try to not do it by name, but
18:22
the third was actually a mentor, but not in the way that you mean.
18:26
It was it was that, that the last company
18:30
that I mentioned where there was a majority owner and I was minority,
18:33
I learned so much,
18:36
frankly, about how I didn't want to be,
18:39
how I didn't want to run a business, how I didn't want to treat people.
18:43
And I think a lot of people might view that as counterintuitive, like, like,
18:47
why would you want to work someplace? It was awful.
18:49
I learned more there about how to do
18:52
and not do business than I have in all of my time since then.
18:57
It was actually incredibly helpful, miserable at times, wonderful in others.
19:02
But I can look back on it now and say so many of the decisions
19:06
that we made at revive, or that I've made since,
19:09
were about not repeating what I saw in that.
19:13
And actually, I'm really grateful for that.
19:14
I, I don't know that my kids love this advice,
19:17
but I've given them this advice of like, it's
19:19
actually if you're in a miserable place, it's actually good to stay for a while
19:22
because you learn so much.
19:23
If things are perfect, you never know what's going on when they're not.
19:27
You really do. Yeah.
19:28
You know, as you look from the outside, everybody,
19:32
you know, looks at it and just says revive.
19:34
They were, you know, on this trajectory, you just always a hockey stick.
19:38
And AB, was there ever a time in the business where you thought,
19:42
man, this is getting hard and are we even going to make it?
19:45
Yeah.
19:46
I don't think we ever
19:48
I don't think I ever believed that we were at risk of not making it.
19:52
And I am not.
19:53
And you and I've talked about this summer, I'm.
19:55
I'm not a big second guesser.
19:57
I feel like you make the decision sometimes.
19:59
It's going to be a bad one, sometimes maybe a good one when it's bad.
20:02
The trick is recognizing that.
20:04
And and pivoting.
20:07
There was one year and it was.
20:09
It was. So we sold one 116.
20:12
In 2017, we did a complete reorganization of the business.
20:16
Not recommended, by the way, in an earnout.
20:19
But we did it in the beginning of the second year of the earnout,
20:23
and it just was a crap year, like start to finish.
20:26
I mean, by our standards, it was I think we were exactly flat.
20:30
I mean, we might have been down 1% and had never had anything like that.
20:33
I mean, our our compounded annual growth rate over 13 years was like 26%. Wow.
20:38
So to have a zero meant you had to have a 60 somewhere, right?
20:42
Which we then thankfully had had it a few years before.
20:45
There was twice in that year that I remember
20:48
thinking very overtly, should I undo this?
20:51
Should I undo these changes we just made?
20:53
Which is very not like like me, frankly.
20:58
And, and people I worked with, including Joanne Thornton,
21:01
who was kind of co-founder with me, was really great about saying
21:04
like, hey, we made this decision for the right reasons.
21:07
Trust your gut.
21:08
Like, this is this is a season and we're going to get through it.
21:12
And it was right.
21:13
That's exactly what happened.
21:14
But that was a miserable year.
21:17
It was one of those years.
21:17
You look back and it was like we couldn't get it quite right.
21:20
And we didn't have people in the right seats.
21:23
And, you know,
21:23
any time you shuffle the deck like that, I think it can be really hard.
21:27
That that's the only year like I it was far from perfect.
21:32
But I will tell you, like, I loved that team.
21:35
I loved those people.
21:36
I loved what we accomplished.
21:38
I felt like we built something that we could be really, really proud of.
21:41
Yeah.
21:42
Such great advice to to stick with your gut and so many people
21:45
pivot so quickly and, just change direction.
21:49
But you guys stuck with it and got it where you're at today.
21:52
So it's a terrible analogy, but I think it's like changing a golf swing.
21:55
Right?
21:55
We've I've only become a golfer because I'm now mid 50 years white man.
21:59
Right. So I guess we're supposed to do that.
22:02
But you know, you change a
22:03
golf swing like it's, it gets way worse before it gets better.
22:07
And it's months and months and then all of a sudden it happens, right?
22:09
But when you're in the middle of your thing
22:10
and I'll just go back to where I was.
22:12
But there's a reason that you changed it.
22:14
And I think,
22:14
I think many business decisions are like that too, where it's like
22:18
things are rarely as good or bad as they seem in the moment.
22:21
So just give it a little bit of time to play out.
22:23
And if you made the decision for the right reasons,
22:26
it needs time to be able to fulfill. Yeah.
22:29
What was as you look back on revive and then we're going to jump into
22:33
the next, next evolution.
22:35
But at revive, what was like one of your proudest moments, proudest campaign?
22:40
There's something that you kind of look back and hang your hat on.
22:44
Yeah, it's it's a great question.
22:45
So, I'll have two answers for the thing I'm probably the most proud of
22:51
is maybe not.
22:52
What people would expect is that we were a best agency
22:55
or agency of the year, best agency to work for 13 times in 13 years. Wow.
22:59
I am infinitely more proud of the best agency to work for than I am.
23:03
I'm the best agency, right?
23:04
Because I think, I think you can have an incredibly high performing business
23:08
for some period of time and have it be a pretty miserable place to work.
23:11
You know, again, we were far from perfect,
23:14
but I think it was a group of people who genuinely cared about one another.
23:17
And you could see it in the work, you could see it in the team.
23:20
Like the chemistry was just sort of palpable.
23:23
I am I am incredibly proud of the small part that I played in that
23:27
I think the campaign,
23:30
gosh, there was a campaign
23:33
we ran for Salinas Valley Medical Center in Northern California.
23:38
So it's farm country.
23:39
A couple hours south of San Francisco, a taxpayer supported hospital,
23:43
and we ran a campaign that was focused on diabetes and created
23:48
a, like a blue monster.
23:51
That was the physical manifestation of diabetes.
23:54
And it worked in Spanish and English, and it was incredibly creative.
23:58
Christian Barnett, who is now head of strategy and creative
24:01
at unlock, actually,
24:03
developed that campaign, and it was one of those campaigns
24:06
that you look at and you've had these as well.
24:07
You look at and go, oh, I wish I'd thought of that.
24:09
Like it's just it was such a good idea.
24:13
When I'm much older, I'll tell a story and it'll be my idea.
24:15
But but right now, it's still Christian.
24:17
And it was just incredibly creative.
24:20
And it hung around for a long time. Like, it was really good work.
24:23
It was highly effective.
24:24
It did all the things it was supposed to do.
24:27
And I would say that's probably if I had to pick one, that's
24:30
that's probably the one.
24:31
We were lucky we won of a lot of awards and all that stuff, but, you know,
24:36
but I think at the end of the day, for me, it was that we created a place
24:41
that people actually wanted to be. Yeah. Proud of.
24:43
That's awesome. What?
24:45
I guess, you know, most people are going to sell their business,
24:48
and maybe they take a year or 2 or 3 off, and, you did.
24:52
You always know there was something next.
24:54
And I guess if you did, what was the gap in the market that you felt like,
24:59
unlike health was going to, you know, take, take advantage of
25:03
this is such an important question, I think, for, for people that are more in
25:06
an executive audience because, number one, there is no roadmap for this.
25:11
Anyone that tells you there is is not being honest and it's weird.
25:14
It's one of the few times in your life
25:16
that everyone has an opinion about what you should do,
25:19
and everyone has the same opinion, which is interesting.
25:21
Everyone's like, you're going to the beach, right?
25:22
Like you're done, you're going to the beach.
25:24
And I'm like, I don't know, I'm 50.
25:25
Like, I don't know, am I really?
25:27
First of all, that's a long time at the beach.
25:29
Second of all, there's only so much golf you can play, right?
25:31
At some point you're going to hurt yourself.
25:33
Yeah.
25:34
So so when I transitioned into
25:36
the executive chair role, summer of 21, if I'm being honest, I was just bored.
25:40
Like I'd gone from working
25:42
100 hours a week, seven days a week, to working almost.
25:44
Not at all.
25:46
And, at the end of 20, we decided we were going to start
25:49
spending part of the year in Hawaii.
25:50
My wife and I did,
25:52
and so we were spending time there and in Nashville sort of splitting.
25:56
And I asked that very question that that you said sort of
26:01
is there a gap in the market?
26:02
Because I think, generally speaking, world needs another marketing agency
26:06
like an IT hole. They head. Right?
26:07
I mean, there's thousands and thousands of marketing agencies.
26:11
So to me, it was is there a gap to fill.
26:14
So it wasn't what do I want to do.
26:16
It's what do I think the gap to fill is in the market.
26:19
And took quite a while to just think about it.
26:21
And, I don't usually do that.
26:23
I tend to be prone to action, even if it's not the right one.
26:27
And and it took some time put together a little deck
26:32
that I started to have some conversations with private equity firms about
26:36
and because I, because for me, it was
26:38
if I'm doing this, I want to do something that's different enough.
26:41
And it's interesting.
26:43
I want to
26:43
I want to fill the gaps that I never felt I could properly fill it, revive.
26:48
You know, we we didn't have deep pockets, right?
26:50
It was just whatever money we earned.
26:52
We weren't going to go into debt over, over it.
26:55
And then we got in an earnout and you got to watch every nickel.
26:57
So there were parts of the business that we just couldn't build out
27:01
or chose not to build out the way we the way we wanted to.
27:04
And so for me, it was, can it be different enough?
27:06
Can I build on something right now, and can it made a meaningful gap in the market
27:10
and trying to be clear eyed about that.
27:12
And so that that was really the process.
27:15
And then I just went, I probably had 30 or 40 conversations
27:19
with friends or past clients or others just say, what do you think about this?
27:24
And it morphed considerably as a result of some of those.
27:28
So yeah, that that's really kind of what led me to it.
27:31
I thought for a hot minute
27:34
that I might be done, and then it was sort of my deal with my wife.
27:38
As I said, I'm going to play out all this due diligence,
27:40
and if I can't get excited about something, then we're just we're
27:43
going to enjoy our lives and maybe I'll serve on some boards or something.
27:47
I don't know if anybody would have me, but, you know, do some of those things.
27:51
Once I got excited about this idea, then it was just a question of like, okay,
27:56
how long am I going
27:57
to be on the bench before we can get our first acquisition closed?
28:01
Right.
28:01
Because when you're starting something with investors like that
28:04
a little different from the venture community,
28:06
where you raise money and then you start, in this case,
28:08
the money gets deployed in your first acquisition.
28:10
So there really isn't a company until the first acquisition closes.
28:14
It ended up not being a long time.
28:15
My last day of revive was 1231 of 2022,
28:21
and my first day at unlock was,
28:24
I think, February 3rd or something of 2023.
28:27
So only about 5 or 6 weeks.
28:30
But, you know, there was a meaningful taper
28:32
at the end of my time at revive, as you might imagine. Yeah.
28:34
Well, you've, you've stitched managed care,
28:38
marketing and tech into one like, platform with unlock.
28:42
Well, I guess what value does
28:45
that create for, like, your clients today?
28:48
So I think the I'll give you the more complicated answer in a second.
28:51
The simplest answer is we we have developed a solution.
28:56
And I think this is what the market was asking for.
28:59
That allows you to have one hand
29:00
on the lever of volume and one hand on the lever of price, and in all in, in
29:06
if you hired anybody else to do either of them, they can't do the other.
29:11
So now there are plenty of clients who only want one or the other.
29:13
There are only plenty of clients who are only going to do one thing or the other.
29:17
But at least for those clients that were open to the idea
29:20
of a single growth oriented partner, we could deliver both of those things.
29:25
Very uncommon to find those things
29:28
in, in, in our environment so that, you know, the
29:32
for me, it's the it started out as sort of problem definition.
29:35
Right.
29:35
Most agencies don't really understand technology or not technology forward.
29:39
The technology firms tend to not want to offer services
29:42
because it's not as profitable as harder to scale.
29:44
And none of them knew how to do the managed care stuff,
29:46
because that was largely in our industry, done by either very, very large firms,
29:52
Huron Guide, House firms like that, or very, very small firms.
29:56
You know, 3 to 10 people in sort of a more regional boutique,
29:59
just not much in the middle.
30:01
And we and those very, very big firms also represent insurance companies,
30:04
which is a little tricky if you're a health care provider.
30:07
And the people that only represent health care providers on a regional basis
30:11
tended to maybe not always have the analytic sophistication that's necessary.
30:15
So we saw a sweet spot in that.
30:18
And I think you're so far the markets responded, you know, we've we've built,
30:22
managed care de novo, up to almost 10% of revenue.
30:27
And, and growing very rapidly will grow
30:29
about 42% this year on that part of the business.
30:32
And, Kevin Berger's our chief managed care officer.
30:35
I've worked with him for 20 something years, is just an exceptional
30:39
leader,
30:40
and understands the market in a way that it just a lot of consultants don't.
30:44
Yeah.
30:44
Well, your site mentions, like, authentic health care marketing.
30:50
Yeah.
30:50
Like, how do you guys operationalize that authenticity.
30:54
Yeah. So to your point, we we also split.
30:56
This was a big learning as well.
30:58
I think the holistic solution is very valuable for clients.
31:01
Unlock health.com is our is our site for marketers okay.
31:04
Unlock managed care is our site
31:06
for CFOs and and chief revenue officer, chief managed care officers.
31:11
I mean we've obviously made no secret about the connectivity of it,
31:14
but they have very unique value propositions when operating independently.
31:17
What we see is most people that want to use us for both actually do it.
31:20
They've hired us for one or the other,
31:22
and then it's more of a cross-sell or upsell situation.
31:25
Yeah.
31:27
Authentic health care marketing was an idea that that Shannon and I came up with.
31:32
Carly nine months ago.
31:34
Now, I'm trying to think of the least political way to say this.
31:39
So the the the idea of authentic health care marketing in the post-truth
31:42
era was an important combination, because I don't think
31:45
most health care organizations struggle with being authentic.
31:48
I think they struggle with being authentic and effective,
31:51
and that efficacy is what gets lost in this post-truth environment,
31:55
because we generally work for large institutions and their marketing features.
31:59
Experts known as doctors in an era that distrust institutions and experts.
32:03
So there's about 50% of the population that looks at and says,
32:06
I don't trust anything you're saying because someone with a fancy title
32:08
and a bunch of degrees in a white coat is delivering it.
32:12
I mean, I think that's unfortunate in many ways, but I think it's a reality.
32:15
So to your point, what we didn't want this to be was sort of a nice idea
32:21
that gets us on webinars and podcasts and, you know, get to produce stuff
32:25
but not make it real.
32:26
Like if we were going to do something called authentic healthcare marketing,
32:29
Dan will better be authentic, right?
32:31
And it better be real and play out.
32:33
And so it's that's actually kind of where it started to say,
32:36
if we're going to operationalize this, what does it look like?
32:38
While the book was still being written.
32:40
And so that is now manifesting in, proprietary
32:45
research tool that we developed with a firm called Klein and Associates.
32:48
Rob Klein and his wife are absolutely fantastic.
32:51
Researchers do a lot of health care related work.
32:53
They developed this health care authenticity index for us
32:57
that measures, dimensions of authenticity.
33:00
So there's four dimensions of it.
33:02
It creates a scoring mechanism for an organization compared
33:05
to their competitive set.
33:07
It identifies the very specific qualities
33:10
that roll up to that authenticity index.
33:13
There is now a tool that allows us to pressure test our own creative
33:17
and our own marketing against that to ensure so.
33:21
And and I think that's really just beginning.
33:23
Right, in many ways.
33:25
We're helping to develop sort of authenticity, centric,
33:31
ChatGPT for our clients to say, is this in the right brand voice?
33:36
Have you considered these factors?
33:37
Yeah.
33:38
Just so it sort of plays out in a hundred different ways,
33:41
but the the idea is the idea and I think it's I think it's a real one.
33:46
I think the way more important question is how do you actually make it real?
33:48
Yeah.
33:49
Well, you mentioned I and I was going to go there.
33:53
So, you know, that's a big, you know, tool for the industry right now.
33:57
Big talking point. Yeah.
33:59
I guess how do you, how how's it working for
34:01
you today beyond that or there other ways you're using AI.
34:05
And then do you see like there's still like a bunch of hype
34:08
around it in other areas.
34:09
Yeah, I think both things are true actually.
34:11
The joke inside unlock is I think I learned to spell AI about six months ago.
34:16
So I would say my answer to this question really has evolved
34:21
and evolved more rapidly than I would say, many of my views.
34:26
If you'd asked me
34:27
six months ago, I would have said, we're going to be really cautious here.
34:30
We're going to go slow.
34:31
We're going to test, we're going to try, you know, we're going to pilot,
34:35
we're going to do this.
34:36
We're going to encourage people to use it, not require it.
34:38
You know, all kinds of of those things.
34:42
I have a very different answer now.
34:44
I think that
34:46
that might have even been the wrong answer six months ago.
34:49
But I think about three months ago, I just realized
34:51
we can't screw around with this anymore.
34:53
And what is optional is now mandatory.
34:56
And what is testing is now got to be ubiquitous.
34:59
And I would say the biggest pivot difference for me
35:03
mentally is I,
35:06
I thought about how we use AI in our current workflows,
35:11
our current ways of working and that I would be an enabler in that.
35:17
Now what we
35:18
think about is how do we design workflows around AI?
35:21
And that's a major change in thinking, right?
35:23
Because it goes from will, Mark, how would you like to do it
35:26
and how would I like to do it, and how would you like to do it and how
35:29
and and it goes to what's the best way to do it?
35:33
That AI sits at the center and drives those efficiencies.
35:36
Do I think there's a bunch of hype?
35:39
Absolutely.
35:40
I mean, we're we're hearing this not so much in our sector yet,
35:44
but in the pharmaceutical sector, for example, firms analogous to ours
35:48
that work in that sector are being told there's an RFP coming out
35:51
and you can do the same work you're doing now for 30% less,
35:55
or you can do 30% more work for the same price.
35:58
Which one would you like?
36:00
And and by the way, if you pass on the RFP because,
36:03
you know, you're maybe you're not ready or whatever, you won't get the next one.
36:06
So know I think pharma tends
36:09
to be more like CPG than, than the rest of health care in many ways.
36:12
In my view.
36:13
So I think the but do I think
36:16
that sort of efficiency expectation is coming our way?
36:20
I do, yeah.
36:21
I think it's I think our industry is pretty ripe for this.
36:25
So, you know, I think there's still some hype around,
36:30
you know, everyone wants to talk about being
36:31
AI powered and being innovative in this and that.
36:34
And I've.
36:35
Yeah, I think we have competitors who tell a good story
36:40
but maybe aren't operationalizing all of it.
36:42
I've just taken the attitude here that I don't want to be all hat and no cattle.
36:46
So where we are starting with making it real
36:49
and then working on telling a better story.
36:51
Yeah. About it.
36:53
My biggest, my biggest issue is and we've been very clear with our staff,
36:57
not one person will lose their job over this.
36:59
There may be people someday.
37:00
We don't hire because of this, but it will not.
37:03
It will not in any way be a change in our current lineup of staff.
37:08
We I mean, one, I think that's sort of crude in some ways,
37:12
but but also, I just think it's it's very short term thinking.
37:17
I think, yeah, it's amazing that companies actually promote that, that, hey,
37:21
we've been able to reduce the workforce
37:23
when really like what clients are looking for.
37:26
I'm sure you see it, as much as we do is they're looking
37:30
for more work, better word, faster word.
37:34
And it's like utilize these tools.
37:36
But I'm sure your clients also, as you go into these conversations,
37:41
they're probably asking you, hey, how do you use AI and
37:44
how could you help us kind of think through how we might be able to use AI?
37:48
Yes, exactly.
37:50
And so we you know, that's a it's a really an interesting question as well,
37:53
because I think some industries are more
37:56
at a point of like, we're ready to implement, I think a lot.
38:00
And I think this is good instinct.
38:01
I think healthcare providers are are a little bit more reluctant to go
38:05
super fast because the consequences of being wrong are very, very high.
38:10
Right.
38:10
If you get AI wrong in sports is at the end of the world.
38:13
Probably not. Right?
38:15
I mean, maybe, maybe if it hurts your favorite team, I guess.
38:17
But, this the the consequences are lower, I think,
38:21
I think our clients want to know that we're using it.
38:25
I think they want to know that we have a plan.
38:27
And I think they want to know
38:28
that we know enough to help guide them in their own decision making.
38:32
So we've actually seen,
38:35
we started a digital
38:36
experience kind of consulting offering as well as implementation.
38:40
Many of the things we recommend in the consulting offering are not things
38:44
we own, right?
38:44
I mean, we're directing people to market based solutions, including AI,
38:48
and some of those are clinical applications as well,
38:51
not because we're some big clinical experts, right,
38:53
but because we just have visibility into available marketplace
38:56
solutions that others may not.
39:00
I think largely our clients are over
39:03
the should we be worried about this phase and are now
39:07
in the maybe where I was six months ago actually sort of how do we deploy?
39:11
How do we be thinking about this?
39:12
And how do I how do I ensure that the agencies are consultants that I work
39:17
with, are equally adept and able to help me navigate that together?
39:23
Well, you know,
39:23
you mentioned this earlier about moving to Nashville
39:26
because of the proximity around the recruiting and,
39:30
you know, around health care leaders and whatnot, I guess.
39:33
Is it very similar to Unlocks Journey
39:36
that, being in Nashville is a huge strength for you?
39:40
Yeah. So, you know, interesting for me.
39:43
You know, prior to Covid, I was very much an office guy, right?
39:48
Like, I like going to an office. I like working in office.
39:50
I like seeing all the people I work with in an office
39:53
and, you know, and we were pretty, and I traveled all the time and still did that.
39:56
Right. Like, when I was home, I was at the office,
39:59
Covid changed all that, obviously. Right.
40:01
And the company that had bought us,
40:03
even though our earnout had ended, did not do return to work for some time.
40:07
I mean, I think, I think I remember that they shared something like a million
40:11
and a half or 2,000,000ftÂ² of space globally,
40:14
which is actually hard for me to wrap my head around.
40:17
I would say, and I if I'm being honest, I miss that.
40:22
I miss seeing the whole team every week.
40:25
Unlocks been constructed differently.
40:28
So about 10% of our workforce is in Nashville is essentially
40:32
the executive offices.
40:34
The entire executive team is here except for our chief revenue officer
40:38
as well as a number of other people.
40:39
But we have recently sort of reprioritize our hiring plan to say
40:45
every person we hire is either going to be in Nashville or relocate to Nashville,
40:50
and it will be the exception for really hard to find roles
40:53
or really rare roles that we would go somewhere else.
40:56
And I think it's because we're we feels like
40:59
we're coming up on that phase where there's
41:01
a little bit more in the office, there's a little bit more people together.
41:05
And and what we've found is it was less because of what I wanted and more
41:09
what the team wanted as a team wants to be together more.
41:12
And I'm really excited for that because we have employees in 20 states.
41:17
I think,
41:19
I'm, I'm just better in
41:21
person, like, I, I, I don't even know if I'm better at like it better.
41:25
So like, maybe it's just purely selfish, I don't know.
41:28
Well, you did make a huge acquisition a few years back, and,
41:32
I guess maybe all those offices were across the country.
41:36
It wasn't like they were all in Nashville either. Right?
41:39
That's right.
41:39
So our first acquisition actually had been purely remote from the day they started.
41:44
But they had two subsidiaries, one of which was, Minneapolis
41:48
based, one of which was Denver based, I think, and had offices.
41:52
And then we bought a, firm in April that was headquartered in Houston.
41:57
And then we bought CPM Group in November of 23,
42:01
which had
42:01
a very significant office in Lagrange, which is just outside of Chicago, as well
42:06
as, one of the subsidiaries had an office in near Baltimore, Columbia, Maryland.
42:11
And, so we've rationalized the office footprint
42:14
and, you know, and I think more than anything is
42:18
the focus there was really to move as quickly away from,
42:23
yours, mine and ours into a single brand, a single executive team,
42:28
a single set of workflows and pricing, a single set of common
42:33
expectations, values, culture, all of that.
42:37
And, as well as systems, we implemented, Salesforce, work front.
42:43
Net suite in a year and a lot of change, a lot of change for everybody.
42:48
I would say by the end of 24, I could honestly look and say, okay,
42:51
we really have brought all of this together.
42:54
And those people that were more office oriented
42:58
have become probably a little bit less so.
43:00
And those that were never in an office are now sometimes in one.
43:04
And we've had to find other ways of making sure that we engage people.
43:07
So go out twice
43:08
a year on a listening tour, we'll, we'll meet with people in person,
43:11
you know, sponsor meetings and events and those kinds of things as well.
43:15
But yeah, it's been it's been a very different animal.
43:18
Also some of your some of the
43:21
viewers or listeners may be interested in this,
43:23
but when we were starting out, a lot of people
43:25
tell me like, this is going to be so different for you.
43:27
You built revive organically.
43:28
All companies have been built organically by building through acquisitions.
43:32
Totally different.
43:33
I don't really think that's the case, actually.
43:35
I think the difference is when you build organically, you just have your people.
43:40
Problems are issues one at a time, and when you do it through acquisition,
43:44
you sell them all at once.
43:45
Right? And so it's it's the same stuff.
43:47
It's just people, you know, like it.
43:48
And people have their things and they want raises and promotions and title
43:51
changes and, you know, and all of those sorts of things.
43:54
And I just don't really find it that radically different.
43:58
I think it it places different demands on you as a leader,
44:01
but I don't think it's sort of fundamentally different.
44:04
I think it's just accelerated, you know, always will you?
44:07
I know, in the past we've talked about you have ran revive
44:11
and now I'm sure unlock with the iOS, system.
44:14
And so you're very strategic of where we're going on set and goals,
44:18
things like that.
44:20
Like how how does that played into the hybrid.
44:23
Is it you still see the same effectiveness?
44:26
Yeah.
44:27
It takes a little bit longer I think.
44:29
And that and that's part of that.
44:30
Just change management with people.
44:32
I actually think that iOS,
44:36
is a really interesting tool to rally people around.
44:39
Right.
44:40
So what you're what does iOS really do is it creates common language, right?
44:43
It creates a common language, a common set of expectations
44:46
and certain common practices, like an El ten meeting, for example.
44:50
I think we've actually found those things to be incredibly helpful.
44:53
So three of the eight companies that have
44:56
now become unlock used iOS already.
45:00
So there was some familiarity inside of it.
45:03
And I think it was actually really helpful because it gave that sort of shared
45:06
language.
45:07
And, you know, you have to get to that season
45:08
where the people that aren't familiar with it make fun of it.
45:11
Right?
45:11
Because you we all we all use those very specific terms and all of that.
45:15
But it has been very helpful.
45:18
I do think it has limitations.
45:19
The bigger you get.
45:21
I think an El ten meeting is really hard to scale
45:23
all the way down through an organization at all different levels.
45:27
We still use it.
45:28
An executive team level, and at certain other venues.
45:32
But I think also recognizing, like, do you have to run
45:35
every creative department meeting as a level ten meeting?
45:38
It's like, I don't know, maybe not.
45:40
You know, like,
45:41
we're trying to leave, leave a little room
45:43
for the Holy Ghost in there, you know, like,
45:44
then let people start to sort out for themselves how they want to work.
45:48
Well together.
45:48
Yeah.
45:49
Well, you've, you know, you've scaled quickly
45:51
and been in a growth, you know, company ever since you started.
45:55
And so what is this, like a must have profile
45:58
for like leaders that you surround yourself with.
46:01
Yeah.
46:02
Well I think I think a lot about this because I do think ultimately your job,
46:08
my job, any CEO's job is mostly about assembling the right team
46:12
and ensuring that there is cultural and value and behavioral alignment
46:16
with those people.
46:17
Because I think it's, you know, in my view, teams
46:20
behave as well as the worst behaved person on the executive team.
46:24
And that's usually the CEO, unfortunately.
46:26
So I would say, you know, first and foremost, for me, it's
46:32
I every single role I hire, they have to be smarter than I am at what they do.
46:37
And I think it's actually one of the unique things about being a CEO
46:39
I've thought a lot about this is almost every other people manager in the world.
46:43
They're better at what they do than their subordinates are.
46:46
That's why they're managing them.
46:48
And that's exactly not true in CEOs. Right?
46:51
Every person that reports to me should be better at what they do than I am.
46:54
That's why they're in that seat.
46:56
And that for some CEOs I think is really intimidating.
46:59
I don't find it that way.
47:01
I'm grateful to have people that are smarter than I am at those things.
47:04
But, you know, my chief people officer should be way better at HR than I am,
47:08
right?
47:08
My God knows my CFO should, and you know, better at finance.
47:13
And so I think number one is just raw
47:16
smarts and intellectual curiosity.
47:20
So too much of that, that's not how I do it.
47:23
I don't find helpful.
47:24
Because I think whatever you were doing a year or two ago,
47:27
what are the odds that's exactly the same way.
47:29
You should still be doing it.
47:31
So I think that kind of combination of just smarts and intellectual curiosity,
47:35
I think, you know, not everybody has to want
47:39
to come have Christmas at my house,
47:40
but I think it's really important that we like each other.
47:42
So for me, that probably manifests in do we have a shared sense of humor?
47:47
Because I think if people can laugh together,
47:50
they're going to be more comfortable with one another to
47:53
and I and I think ultimately it's, it's driven.
47:57
But I want to be careful how I say that because I don't think everyone has to work
48:01
the same amount or at the same pace.
48:04
I think what I say driven, I mean more,
48:07
probably more oriented toward
48:10
are you constantly looking to be better?
48:13
Are you?
48:14
If you're satisfied with what you've accomplished, you're
48:17
probably not going to like being a part of my executive team.
48:20
If you're really driven to succeed, if you're really driven to do better,
48:25
if you're willing to examine the way you do everything, if there's a better way.
48:30
And I mean, maybe that ties into the intellectual curiosity in some ways.
48:33
So I think it's some combination of like, just good human kind,
48:38
smart, intellectually
48:41
curious and, and I think overused term.
48:45
But I think a certain element of servant leadership, like, I can't, I can't hire
48:50
someone who thinks they're above certain kinds of work
48:53
because I don't think any of us are.
48:54
Yeah, man. Bring.
48:55
And I'm taking notes myself and I'm sure the audiences as well
48:58
haven't always gotten it right, haven't always behave that way myself.
49:01
Right.
49:02
Like there's plenty of things I could have done better in that.
49:04
But but I think if you aim at that, you're much more likely
49:08
to to build a great team.
49:10
Yeah, well, what's the next like?
49:12
You know, what's the next three years look like for
49:15
on like, health and like, what do you see in the industry.
49:18
What what are you the most excited about.
49:20
Yeah.
49:21
So I think I think we're about to enter a very interesting period
49:25
for health care providers.
49:27
I don't intend this to be overtly political statement.
49:30
Not a fan of OBOR and its impact to the health care industry.
49:35
I think actually,
49:36
if you fast forward maybe to 2027, for health care providers,
49:40
27 will look a lot more like 2007
49:44
ACA in terms of the level of uninsured.
49:47
I mean, there's just a bunch of stuff that I think is fundamentally
49:49
not good policy,
49:51
like maybe it's good politics, but I don't think it's good policy.
49:54
Yeah.
49:55
I think it would be natural for people to assume,
49:59
oh, we're going to go to this difficult period.
50:01
So marketing budgets are going to be effective.
50:03
Are affected.
50:05
I think they will be if you can't prove value
50:08
and if you can't prove value, you probably shouldn't be doing it anyway
50:11
most of the time.
50:12
But but I think, you know, a friend of mine, guy named Nate
50:15
Kaufman, say, when food becomes scarce, table manners decline.
50:20
And I think we're about to move into a period where table manners, manners
50:23
will decline a little bit.
50:25
We're not seeing that in our business, nor do I think we will,
50:28
because we have such an emphasis on ROI and such an emphasis
50:31
on on efficacy of campaigns in our work overall.
50:35
I so I think it'll be interesting to see we do continue
50:40
to see sort of secular shift from spend on traditional advertising and marketing
50:45
to spend on digital continues to accelerate in that direction.
50:49
That started some number of years ago,
50:50
but it feels like it's snowballing even faster now.
50:54
And, you know, and, and I think ultimately we will see more
50:59
and more of our revenue coming from consulting work, not just in managed
51:03
care consulting, but we'll call it sort of business consulting.
51:06
Right.
51:06
Your overall business strategy, we talked about that digital experience
51:10
consulting, you know, less people just buying a campaign
51:14
or something specific and more like, help me solve this problem.
51:18
Help me think through what this looks like long term.
51:22
And we'll invest around, say,
51:23
at some point there'll be other investors or buyers or whatever.
51:26
I mean, that I doubt, I doubt it'll be in the next couple of years,
51:29
but it might be you know, sort of 2 or 3 is not unreasonable.
51:32
I just think there's so much room left to grow
51:35
and so much more to achieve that.
51:38
You know, that
51:39
that will be more about investor dynamics than any need on our side ultimately.
51:44
Yeah.
51:44
Well, you know, I wouldn't want to close up the episode
51:48
without asking you for advice to, you know, there's a
51:51
there's a variety of different people that listen to the podcast.
51:55
So you've got agency owners, you've got marketers, we've got students.
51:59
But let's just say it's, person starting an agency today.
52:03
Like, what advice would you, would you give them
52:07
you know, I think it is different starting one today than it was
52:10
when we when we started online, but certainly when we started to revive
52:13
in 2009, you know, I think maybe, maybe a small number of things.
52:18
I think one who you surround yourself with as your true inner
52:21
circle matters more than anything else you're going to do.
52:24
I got great advice from my friend Roger that I was telling you about
52:27
when I was starting.
52:28
As he said, no one's going to tell you this.
52:30
The day you start, your firm will begin the loneliest season of your life.
52:35
And he said, and he goes, I'm not saying that to discourage you.
52:37
He's like, but you have to understand,
52:39
you've always had someone to go to to ask the question,
52:42
and now everyone's going to be looking at you to answer the question,
52:46
and it can be pretty lonely.
52:48
And I actually I think there's something very healthy about that,
52:51
because if you're not a little bit lonely,
52:52
you actually think you have all the answers.
52:55
That's probably the problem, right?
52:57
The minute
52:57
you think you have it all wired is when you really are profoundly screwed.
53:01
So I think one is surrounding yourself
53:05
with people that you really trust, that have the same values,
53:08
that have an attitude of abundance, right, as opposed to scarcity.
53:12
People that are that see
53:14
the possibilities, people that view challenges as opportunities,
53:18
you know, people
53:18
that say, we can run to that brick wall if we need to, and you for them, right?
53:22
Not not just them for you.
53:24
It has to be a shared sense of that.
53:27
I think I got another piece of really good advice
53:30
I got early on was that everyone charges too little when they're starting.
53:35
Your brand new firm, you're small,
53:37
and you feel a little weird or a little guilty.
53:40
And especially if you've been a client,
53:41
you know what it's like to get those bills.
53:44
And I.
53:44
And I think, under really being clear about your worth.
53:48
Right?
53:49
And projecting your worth and projecting your confidence in that
53:53
and being willing to try things and fail.
53:56
Years ago, I had a friend who was becoming a CEO say,
53:59
I'm terrified of being seen as a failure.
54:01
And I said, well, I think there's an important question.
54:03
Are you are you terrified of failing?
54:05
Are you terrified of being seen as a failure?
54:08
Because if you're terrified of failing, you shouldn't do this.
54:10
Like you're going to make mistakes. You're going to fail.
54:12
If I bat about 500, I feel like I'm doing pretty good.
54:16
I'll.
54:17
I'll be in the Hall of Fame if it was baseball.
54:18
But I think that person said no, I'm afraid of being seen as a failure.
54:23
And they're like, don't you think about that?
54:24
And I said, literally never.
54:26
Not because I think I'm right all the time because, I don't know,
54:29
maybe it's a blessing.
54:30
A curse is I just don't think about what other people think of me.
54:33
I mean, I want to, I want to, I want to be a good human.
54:36
I want to treat people well.
54:38
I don't always get that right either.
54:40
But I don't sit
54:42
around worrying about whether someone else thinks I was right or wrong,
54:45
because I don't think anyone's going to be a harsher critic than I am of myself.
54:49
And that ultimately.
54:51
So I don't know if that was good advice or not,
54:53
but at least a couple things that people can think about.
54:55
Some great nuggets there.
54:57
So is there anything I haven't asked you or that
55:00
maybe you want to talk about that that could help the audience?
55:03
You know, I don't know if this will be relevant for everyone, but I'll just say,
55:06
as we tend to under think the personal side of starting an agency.
55:12
I mean,
55:12
my wife and I have been married now for just shy of 29 years,
55:16
and, and you've, you know, you have the same experience.
55:20
It is really easy for building
55:23
the agency to crowd out everything else you do.
55:26
And, and I traveled a lot until we moved here
55:30
200 days a year after we moved here, maybe 125 to 150.
55:35
Like, that's a lot.
55:36
And, and I, I do not say this flippantly.
55:39
The only reason we're married is how amazing she is.
55:42
Because a perfectly reasonable person would have left me out at some point
55:46
in that window.
55:47
You know, we raised
55:48
we had three kids and 38 months, you know, like, there was a lot.
55:52
And not only do I feel incredibly
55:55
lucky at who I picked, or maybe she picked me.
55:58
But I think as I've gotten older, I've become much more mindful
56:03
about work playing.
56:04
It's appropriate place in our life, as opposed to being
56:08
the centerpiece of our life, where it crowds out everything else.
56:12
And I did not get that right for a lot of years.
56:15
Like we were laughing about laughing kind of, the other day.
56:20
There is not a single picture of me on vacation
56:22
until about two years ago that I wasn't on the phone.
56:26
And, you know, like Disneyland, there's the kids
56:28
going on a ride, and I'm standing over at the exit on a call.
56:31
You know, I am not proud of that.
56:33
Just to be very clear, like, I wish I had handled all of that a lot better.
56:38
But I
56:38
but I think on it now and I think, boy, I wish I had been able to separate
56:45
the important from the merely urgent,
56:49
and I just didn't know how to do that.
56:51
So that's a big thing for people to think through.
56:54
If they're either starting an agency or partnering with someone or whatever.
56:56
That list.
56:57
Well, Brandon, thank you so much for being on the show.
57:00
Thanks for, all your great advice and just everything
57:04
you're doing here in the, Nashville Health Care marketing scene.
57:07
You guys are building something extraordinary.
57:10
And I think, you know,
57:11
a lot of people are looking at you, and and you're doing amazing.
57:14
So I know I don't need to tell you that, but, thanks for,
57:18
you know, giving back on the show to, the Nashville creative community to.
57:22
So thank you for having me.
57:24
This, it's always fun to talk with you,
57:26
but also, I just I love this kind of format with people.
57:29
And I've watched a lot of the ones that you've done
57:32
and my good friend Colton, you had on as well, so.
57:34
Well thank you. Yeah.
57:35
That's great.
57:36
Well, thank you for joining us as well.
57:39
And I hope that if this episode, with Brandon sparked anything
57:42
that, you'll subscribe, rate and review and even share this with other creatives
57:47
out there in the Nashville, marketing scene,
57:50
that you think it could help, but, Thanks again for joining us on The spark.
57:53
We'll catch you next time.
57:54
And that's a wrap on this episode of The Spark from Creative Assembly.
57:58
Thanks for spending time
58:00
with us and exploring the minds shaping Nashville's creative future.
58:04
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58:07
that's exactly the point.
58:09
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58:12
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58:16
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58:20
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58:24
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58:26
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58:27
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