Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 'Affluenza teen' Ethan Couch kills four, walks free & other kid killers

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'Affluenza teen' Ethan Couch kills four, walks free & other kid killers · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two.
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Speaker 1: Four dead. A fifth victim left as a quadriplegic that
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Speaker 1: can see what's happening around him but can't move. That's
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Speaker 1: what happened when a spoiled brat affluencity Ethan Couch got
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Speaker 1: behind the wheel high and mowed down a youth pastor,
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Speaker 1: a young girl, her mother, another person who had tried
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Speaker 1: to help them when the girl got a flat tire.
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Speaker 1: All dead except for the quadriplegic who lives who can't move,
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Speaker 1: and now Ethan Couch set to walk free. As you
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Speaker 1: will recall, his defense at court was he was too
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Speaker 1: rich and affluent to fully appreciate what he had done.
2:04
Speaker 1: I guess that means he hasn't lived with the rest
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Speaker 1: of us slubs like with the common people, so he
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Speaker 1: can't relate to us. That's the defense. Are you kidding me? Well,
2:13
Speaker 1: apparently at work because he's walking free. I mean, it's
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Speaker 1: he grace. This is crime stories. Thank you for being
2:19
Speaker 1: with us. Take a listen to what the one victim
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Speaker 1: who lived brother says as he helps will his paralyzed
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Speaker 1: brother out covered in a blanket. All he can do
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Speaker 1: is move his eyes. Listen. Basically, what'd you see here today?
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Speaker 1: This is my brother and serie of the wind. This
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Speaker 1: is how he's portrays him in for the best of
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Speaker 1: his life. Can you try to smile and tell him
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Speaker 1: that don't matter what happened, you're still here. Then you
3:01
Speaker 1: still got dreams of playing soccer man living? Can you
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Speaker 1: tell him? And it's because of this woman right here,
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Speaker 1: my mother. Man, it's because of hers. He's his angel.
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Speaker 1: That being said, man's other worlds. It's not right. So
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Speaker 1: what twenty days? So what one twenty eight days in county?
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Speaker 1: I think that that's nothing. Look at my brother, he's
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Speaker 1: doing more than a day period or whatever. He's doing
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Speaker 1: more than ten years and on probation. Fin let him
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Speaker 1: send him down there and let him do the rest
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Speaker 1: of his little sentence and let him come out. You
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Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, I hopefully he forgives himself, which
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Speaker 1: gives us and helps us, since he's got so much money.
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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Put it on there once you can.
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Speaker 1: I remember it like it was yesterday. Ethan couch Hi
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Speaker 1: all of his friends drawn off booze that they had
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Speaker 1: stolen on surveillance video at a local seven eleven get
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Speaker 1: out in his souped up Ford f three fifty seventy
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Speaker 1: miles an hour in Brulston, Texas, where he's hosting a
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Speaker 1: drunken party. Earlier that day, Couch and two of his
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Speaker 1: buddies is still in three cases of booze as a
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Speaker 1: local walmart and they all decide in the middle of
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Speaker 1: the party they're gonna go back to the convenience store,
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Speaker 1: and he plows into an suv stopped on the side
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Speaker 1: of the road after it blows a tire, killing the
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Speaker 1: young girl driver, Brianna Mitchell, and three people who would
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Speaker 1: come to help her. Incredible, and now he walks free
4:52
Speaker 1: and first of all he gets on probation and his
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Speaker 1: mother he gets out of out of jail and his mother, yeah, Tanya,
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Speaker 1: she gets Ethan and they flee to Mexico. And then
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Speaker 1: one night they spend two thousand dollars at a strip club,
5:14
Speaker 1: Thanks Mom, and they hide out at a four star
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Speaker 1: Mexican resort and only get caught when, out of just
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Speaker 1: sheer stupidity, or maybe they were both drunk, she orders
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Speaker 1: pizza on their US cell phone and the Feds track
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Speaker 1: them to their four star resort in Mexico. I mean,
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Speaker 1: Alexis terres Chuck joining me Radar online dot Com investigative reporter.
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Speaker 1: Have I missed a fact here? Alexis, No, you haven't.
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Speaker 1: And the thing that is so shocking is that if
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Speaker 1: this boy had been anything but a rich white boy,
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Speaker 1: he would have been in prison for the rest of
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Speaker 1: his life. But because he was rich and he was
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Speaker 1: able to spend a ton of money on fancy lawyers
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Speaker 1: and his mother escaped the country with him, he almost
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Speaker 1: got away with these murders. I mean to you, Troy Layton,
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Speaker 1: you're the high profile defense attorney joining us side of
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Speaker 1: l A. A blood test taken three hours later which
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Speaker 1: gives all the substances in your body. Uh three hours
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Speaker 1: to subside and dissipate. Three hours after the crash, Ethan
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Speaker 1: Couch was still three times the legal limit with both
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Speaker 1: marijuana and valium in his system. He was high as
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Speaker 1: a kite. I'm taking a look at the wreckage, the
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Speaker 1: carnage of that crash that night. How did he walk
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Speaker 1: free claiming he had affluenza? He was too affluent and
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Speaker 1: rich to know better. This is a sixteen year old child, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: And yes, what happened to those victims is a horrific tragedy.
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Speaker 1: But the purpose of the juvenile justice system is rehabilitation
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Speaker 1: and not punishment. That's what the entire purpose for juvenile
7:07
Speaker 1: He wasn't in juvenile he was in adult court. He
7:11
Speaker 1: was eventually transferred to adult court. Yes, but and he
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Speaker 1: did serve a hundred and eighty days for each of
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Speaker 1: the four victims. So he served nearly two years in
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Speaker 1: jail after he fled to Mexican Wit a minute, White
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Speaker 1: a minute. That was after he went on the run. Troy,
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Speaker 1: You're missing a few important facts, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor
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Speaker 1: Troy Slaton conveniently left out some damning facts. Yeah, you know,
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Speaker 1: that's Troy's job as a defense turner. I used to
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Speaker 1: have his job in Troy, and more power to You've
7:43
Speaker 1: got a hard one on this, especially when we live
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Speaker 1: in a country where ironically we blame the crime rate
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Speaker 1: on poverty. Think about this case with that backdrop, we
7:53
Speaker 1: have a fluenza. Hopefully that's not contagious. Thank god, it
7:57
Speaker 1: hasn't been since this occurred, but we have been which
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Speaker 1: used as an explanation for crime instead of the opposite.
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Speaker 1: But you're right, Nancy, there's no way, even given the
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Speaker 1: young age, that you can excuse this kind of conduct
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Speaker 1: because another goal of punishment, another goal of sentencing is deterrence,
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Speaker 1: and to deter others similarly situated from drinking and driving.
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Speaker 1: And like Troy and I know, being a being at
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Speaker 1: three times the level so many hours after the fact
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Speaker 1: means this guy's b a must have been through the
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Speaker 1: roof at the time he was behind the wheel, because
8:31
Speaker 1: you drop, as you know, Nancy, a certain amount every hour.
8:35
Speaker 1: So when you look at all of that in retrospect,
8:37
Speaker 1: truth is stranger than fiction. As to how he got
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Speaker 1: off as light as he did at trial, a psychologist
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Speaker 1: named Dick Miller said Ethan Couch. Ethan Couch, Okay, remember
8:49
Speaker 1: there's four dead people dead. A young girl, her mom,
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Speaker 1: a youth minister that stopped trying to help her with
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Speaker 1: her tire, another person. The psychologist at trial says Couch,
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Speaker 1: the guy who's high as the kite and and kills
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Speaker 1: for people. He is the victim, the victim of quote
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Speaker 1: affluents up because his multi millionaire parents never taught him
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Speaker 1: right from wrong. And the judge, Judge Gene Boyd, agreed
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Speaker 1: and gave him a slap on the wrist of just
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Speaker 1: ten years probation, with the condition he goes to rehabit
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Speaker 1: doesn't drink. Yeah right. The prosecutors asked for a twenty
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Speaker 1: year prison term, but just a few months into his probation,
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Speaker 1: a video was posted on Twitter and it showed him
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Speaker 1: at a beer pong party. I wasn't even sure what
9:46
Speaker 1: beer pong actually was, but hold on, I've got Alan
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Speaker 1: Duke with me, and I'm pretty sure he knows what
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Speaker 1: beer pong is. What is it? Alan? It is a
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Speaker 1: game where you throw ping pong balls into little glasses
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Speaker 1: of beer. This party was pretty raucous. A minute you
10:03
Speaker 1: throw ping pong balls into beer and then what happens. Well,
10:06
Speaker 1: in this case, he slammed down on the table obviously drawn. No, no,
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Speaker 1: what's the point in the game. Okay, so that's what
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Speaker 1: beer pong is. And long story short, that Twitter video
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Speaker 1: emerged showing Couch drunk apparently playing beer pong, and it
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Speaker 1: triggered a probation revocation. Take a listen. It's short but sweet.
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Speaker 1: This is the natural sound that we managed to get
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Speaker 1: off Twitter and it shows Couch and some other guys
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Speaker 1: playing beer pong. Take a listen. Here you go. That
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Speaker 1: trigger that video posted on Twitter got Cow revoked, even
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Speaker 1: though there was no evidence in the video he was
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Speaker 1: actually drinking. Couch and his mother, Tanya, flee to Mexico
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Speaker 1: with the family dog rather than deal with that probation violation.
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Speaker 1: After multiple weeks on the run, they were found living
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Speaker 1: there in the resort town of Proto Viarda. They got
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Speaker 1: cops got a ping off one of their cell phones
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Speaker 1: when they ordered a Domino's pizza. I mean, really, they
11:33
Speaker 1: should go to Joel for for felony idiocy right there.
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Speaker 1: But thousands of dollars were spent on their Mexican vacation
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Speaker 1: at the harem h A R E. M harem strip club.
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Speaker 1: Just hold that thought, strip club with your mom where
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Speaker 1: he was spotted snorting cocaine and converting with topless women. Okay,
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Speaker 1: I just want that to see. Can do I have
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Speaker 1: the facts correct? Alexis tres Chuck. Yep, you do. But
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Speaker 1: the one thing is at the strip club, what he
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Speaker 1: didn't do. He did not pay his bill, so he
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Speaker 1: fled out of there, kind of like everything else in
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Speaker 1: his life that he has no responsibility. He doesn't have
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Speaker 1: to take responsibility for killing people. And he doesn't even
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Speaker 1: have to pay the stripper. You know. I always say
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Speaker 1: you must always pay the stripper because that is what
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Speaker 1: gets you in trouble. Yeah, you better pay the stripper.
12:27
Speaker 1: You'll get cut out in the parking lot. Uh tow.
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Speaker 1: Dr Carol Lieberman forensic psychiatrists and author of a brand
12:35
Speaker 1: new book on Amazon, Lions and Tigers and terrorists, Oh My,
12:40
Speaker 1: How to Protect your child in a time of terror
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Speaker 1: dodgor Carol Lieberman, what is mommy thinking? Well, mommy and
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Speaker 1: even have a psychological or emotional incestuous relationship. I mean, clearly,
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Speaker 1: um taking your son to a strip club and and
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Speaker 1: and taking him on the lamb um spoiling him in
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Speaker 1: all these ways, but in a with a sexual tinge
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Speaker 1: to it. It's part of what contributed to making him
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Speaker 1: screwed up. And and I'm not giving any excuses. I mean,
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Speaker 1: it is outrageous that he that the judge gave him
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Speaker 1: as little penalty punishments as she did, but hard You
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Speaker 1: know what, he had a number of things during his childhood. Again,
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Speaker 1: not to excuse him, but like when he got in
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Speaker 1: trouble in school, his father said that he would just
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Speaker 1: buy the school um and so you know what that
13:37
Speaker 1: that has been his his child His parents got divorced
13:40
Speaker 1: when he was ten. I mean there's been and his
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Speaker 1: parents both have criminal records. So I mean, again not
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Speaker 1: excusing him, but you can see that he comes from
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Speaker 1: a kind of a cesspool of of psychopathology. You know what.
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Speaker 1: I hear you, Dr Carol, But it's kind of hard
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Speaker 1: for me to take in with me Private investigator Vincent
14:00
Speaker 1: Hill joining us from the courthouse. Vincent, you know, I've
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Speaker 1: seen a lot of underprivileged defendants arguing their lawyers, arguing
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Speaker 1: they never had a chance. Sometimes I agree with them,
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Speaker 1: but that does not excuse the crime. Now they're trying
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Speaker 1: to argue he was too rich to ever have a chance.
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Speaker 1: I'm not buying that for a New York minute, Vincent, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I don't buy an NTO either. I mean, was o
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Speaker 1: J too affluent when he stabbed Ron and the coal?
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Speaker 1: I mean, was that his defense? You know, here's the thing.
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Speaker 1: I've worked a lot of these d U I cases.
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Speaker 1: I've worked a lot of accidents. Nothing to the amount
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Speaker 1: of carnage that Ethan cosst that night, and the fact
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Speaker 1: that he's getting out it is sickening. I've put people
14:39
Speaker 1: in jail for a dime bag of crack cocaine that
14:42
Speaker 1: are still in jail to this day, years later. So
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Speaker 1: the fact that this individual killed four people and his
14:49
Speaker 1: excuses and I didn't know what I was doing because
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Speaker 1: I'm rich, It's sickening. It should be sickening to any
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Speaker 1: parent or any person in this country for that matter.
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Speaker 1: Guys are talking about a killer kid, Ethan Couch, who
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Speaker 1: mos down four people dead and lays a fifth. At
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Speaker 1: quadriplegic for life. He can see life going by, he
15:08
Speaker 1: can move his eyes and that's it. He sits contorted,
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Speaker 1: covered in a blanket and a wheelchair every single day
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Speaker 1: of his life and now he is walking free. Troye Latton.
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Speaker 1: How did that happen? He served his sentence, Nancy. The
15:28
Speaker 1: justice system worked, and he is gonna be not just
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Speaker 1: walking free. He's going to have a sort of damn tocle.
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Speaker 1: He is hanging over his head with the potential of
15:40
Speaker 1: going back into jail for forty years if he violates
15:44
Speaker 1: the very strict terms and conditions of probation that he'll
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Speaker 1: be under for six years. That means no drinking, no drugs.
15:53
Speaker 1: He's going to have an ankle monitor that continues. I mean,
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Speaker 1: it isn't what I told him to do last time.
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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and and that got him put back in
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Speaker 1: jail for two years. This time, if he violates, he
16:05
Speaker 1: can go and back in for forty up to forty years, Nancy.
16:10
Speaker 1: He's going to have a drug patch on his arm,
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Speaker 1: monitoring whether or not he uses any drugs. He's going
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Speaker 1: to have an I I D and ignition interlocked device
16:19
Speaker 1: with a camera in this car, meaning that nobody else
16:23
Speaker 1: can blow into it for him. He's going to be
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Speaker 1: under a very watchful eye. This is gonna be no
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Speaker 1: walk in the park for him. He's not gonna just
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Speaker 1: be free and have the liberty that you and I have.
16:35
Speaker 1: They're gonna be watching him closely, Okay. Wendy Patrick Troice Lightton,
16:39
Speaker 1: L a defense lawyer, says justice is working. We've got
16:43
Speaker 1: a very different opinion on what justice is. I guess Wendy,
16:47
Speaker 1: that's right. And you know, it's it's such a difficult
16:50
Speaker 1: case because it's hard enough when there's a horrific accident
16:53
Speaker 1: and there's remorse and there's rehabilitation, and there's a demonstrated
16:57
Speaker 1: commitment to turning your life around, maybe being a role
16:59
Speaker 1: mow all to other young men who might be thinking
17:02
Speaker 1: of drinking and driving. We've seen the opposite approach with
17:04
Speaker 1: Ethan Couch, and that's why this case has received such notoriety.
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Speaker 1: It's because, as you mentioned, the last time he got out,
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Speaker 1: he flees to Mexico. He basically and I understand he
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Speaker 1: doesn't have the benefit of role models. I love what
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Speaker 1: Alexis said about cesspool of psychopathology. If that's true, one
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Speaker 1: wonders whether rehabilitation is possible. But you know what, this
17:26
Speaker 1: is his chance. We'll see what he does, and maybe
17:30
Speaker 1: it's going to be one of those cases where he
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Speaker 1: does violate and then justice is done. In the eyes
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Speaker 1: of so many, including the family of that quadriplegic, that
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Speaker 1: he does have the rest of his life to think
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Speaker 1: about what he's done. But we'll see this is his
17:42
Speaker 1: one shot at it, because the court is not going
17:45
Speaker 1: to give him more than two chances. Three strikes and
17:47
Speaker 1: you're out. As far as this young man goes, affluence
17:50
Speaker 1: attain ethan couch now one set to walk free. Another
17:57
Speaker 1: killer kid. His name Dennis Cullen Jr. Police say he
18:04
Speaker 1: put his own mother, Elizabeth Cullen, in a headlock and
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Speaker 1: drowned her and their upscale homes pool in the backyard.
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Speaker 1: When I asked how he was holding up in his
18:18
Speaker 1: cell at Riverhead Correctional Facility, he responds calmly and coolly, no,
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Speaker 1: I can't do this. So he's saying, uh, he quote
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Speaker 1: can't do jail. This is the guy that methodically drowns
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Speaker 1: his mother dead in the backyard pool. Take a listen
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Speaker 1: to the Suffolk County prosecutor as he describes what Collin
18:46
Speaker 1: says about how he drowned drowned his own mother in
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Speaker 1: the swimming pool. Listen, he put her in a headlock,
18:54
Speaker 1: walked from the shallow wind of the pool with her
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Speaker 1: in the headlock to the deep end of the pool.
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Speaker 1: All the time while she was struggling, he went in
19:01
Speaker 1: the house, took a shower, went into his mom's wallet,
19:05
Speaker 1: took money out credit card, um took her car to
19:09
Speaker 1: the Cold Spring Harbor train station, drove the took a
19:13
Speaker 1: train into Manhattan, met up with his sister. Explained to
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Speaker 1: his sister what happened. She notified the father, and then
19:20
Speaker 1: the three of them returned to the Lord Harbor residence,
19:23
Speaker 1: where he was placed under arrest. Colin tales police. He
19:26
Speaker 1: wraps his arms around his mother's neck, drags her to
19:29
Speaker 1: the pool, yanked her into the deep end, and held
19:33
Speaker 1: her under the water until she died. Now, this is
19:36
Speaker 1: a former varsity lacrosse player. He was given every advantage
19:43
Speaker 1: his hard working parents could afford. Beautiful home in a
19:48
Speaker 1: Tony Posh area, fancy school, varsityal across, you name it.
19:55
Speaker 1: But his mom gets onto him about not taking his
19:59
Speaker 1: mad he snaps and kills her. To Alexis terres Chuck,
20:05
Speaker 1: investigative reporter with Radar online dot com, take me back
20:09
Speaker 1: to that night. Give me what happens that night that
20:13
Speaker 1: we know of. So what we know is that he
20:16
Speaker 1: and his mother were arguing. She wanted him to take
20:19
Speaker 1: his medication. That that's how it's been described as medicine.
20:22
Speaker 1: And they're so they're standing next to each other fighting.
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Speaker 1: She pokes him, physically pokes him with her hand and
20:28
Speaker 1: he snaps. He grabs her there in the yard there,
20:32
Speaker 1: and he grabs her, drags her in pool, puts her
20:35
Speaker 1: in a headlock so that means basically wraps his elbow
20:38
Speaker 1: around his mom's neck so she can't move her head,
20:41
Speaker 1: and drags her through the swimming pool, starting in the
20:44
Speaker 1: shallow and drags her and drags her into the deep
20:46
Speaker 1: end of the pool. She's tiny, she's five too. He's
20:49
Speaker 1: a big, tall guy, and he holds her under the water,
20:52
Speaker 1: and he described it as he was surprised that she
20:56
Speaker 1: had that much fight in her because she was so tiny,
21:00
Speaker 1: and he held her as he held her head under
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Speaker 1: the water. I'm just just thinking about how this whole
21:06
Speaker 1: thing playing out. The grandson of the highest ranking US
21:11
Speaker 1: Army officer killed in Vietnam put his own mother in
21:14
Speaker 1: a headlock, drowning her in the family pool after she
21:18
Speaker 1: berated him for not taking med's. It was a chilling
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Speaker 1: video confession Dennis Cullen Junior gives of cold spring harbor,
21:30
Speaker 1: gets into his mom, Elizabeth, and what did he do?
21:34
Speaker 1: Instead of fight, arguing back, or saying yeah, mom, you
21:37
Speaker 1: know what, you're right, or just turning around and leaving,
21:41
Speaker 1: he puts her in the headlock, forces her into the
21:44
Speaker 1: shallow w into the pool, drags her to the deep
21:46
Speaker 1: end while she struggled violently. She's a very small woman,
21:51
Speaker 1: as Alexis pointed out, drowns her. Then drags his mother's
21:55
Speaker 1: five two body out of the pool, play stra next
22:00
Speaker 1: to the backyard shed in the backyard and covered her
22:03
Speaker 1: body with a boat they had in the backyard. Goes
22:07
Speaker 1: inside the multimillion dollar Whitehall Road home and there are
22:13
Speaker 1: three acre spread, takes a shower, steals money from his
22:19
Speaker 1: mother's wallet, and car takes the car drives to a
22:24
Speaker 1: train station there in town, and he leaves on the train.
22:30
Speaker 1: His sister calls their dad, who's a Chase Bank executive,
22:38
Speaker 1: and the dad goes home and finds mom's dead body
22:45
Speaker 1: when he goes to check on her. I mean, it
22:49
Speaker 1: never seems to end. And now he plays not guilty
22:54
Speaker 1: and wines about being behind bars. Wendy Patrick does it
22:58
Speaker 1: is that summed up correctly? You're the do win it
23:01
Speaker 1: with me? Is Wendy Patrick, Southern California prosecutor with a
23:04
Speaker 1: heck of a track record, Wendy weigh in. You know, Nancy,
23:07
Speaker 1: this has mental defense written all over it because listening
23:10
Speaker 1: to the facts as you've described, and having read about
23:13
Speaker 1: the case, this young man's actions both during and after
23:16
Speaker 1: the crime are so counterintuitive and impossible to understand from
23:21
Speaker 1: a normal perspective. Whoever gets assigned to this case is
23:24
Speaker 1: going to have to try to get inside this kid's head.
23:26
Speaker 1: We already know there's an issue of medication. I found
23:30
Speaker 1: it telling that he takes his mom cars, Mom's car.
23:32
Speaker 1: Where's his car? I mean, this is a somebody like
23:35
Speaker 1: you say, varsity lacrosse, beautiful home, comfortable life. One of
23:39
Speaker 1: the things we're gonna have to look at is was
23:41
Speaker 1: this kind of a reaction foresteeable. Is this a man
23:45
Speaker 1: that can possibly have a potentially successful mental defense or
23:50
Speaker 1: is this the kind of psycho pathology that will be
23:53
Speaker 1: relevant maybe two sentencing, but certainly never rise to the
23:56
Speaker 1: level of something that's gonna save him in trial. Joining
23:59
Speaker 1: me right now, Dr Carroll Lieberman, forensic psychiatrist author of
24:03
Speaker 1: brand new book on Amazon dot Com Lions, Tigers and Terrorists,
24:08
Speaker 1: Oh My, How to Protect Your Child in a Time
24:11
Speaker 1: of Terror. Dctor Carol, He may be on med's, but
24:15
Speaker 1: his actions that night were methodical. He got into an
24:19
Speaker 1: argument with his mom, so he drowns her dead. Then
24:23
Speaker 1: he hides the body, takes a shower to get rid
24:26
Speaker 1: of evidence, steals money, and flees the scene. That sounds
24:31
Speaker 1: perfectly rational to me. Dr Carol Lieberman, Well, there are
24:35
Speaker 1: a number of clues that I is a psychiatric expert
24:39
Speaker 1: witness would want to follow up. I mean, first of all,
24:42
Speaker 1: he was twenty three. That is a typical age for
24:44
Speaker 1: a schizophrenic break. The medication would give a clue, of course,
24:49
Speaker 1: depending upon what kind of MIDS it was, whether it's
24:51
Speaker 1: a MIDS for schizophrenia or bipolar or something. And then um,
24:56
Speaker 1: he says that, I mean, he was the only one there,
24:59
Speaker 1: so he's presumably is the one unless they had cameras
25:02
Speaker 1: in the backyard, he's the one that said that. Um,
25:06
Speaker 1: she confronted him about his pills and poked him. Now
25:09
Speaker 1: poked him. Is that I think is fascinating because again,
25:13
Speaker 1: if that really is what happened that obviously triggered this rage.
25:17
Speaker 1: So then you have to look at was he um
25:20
Speaker 1: physically or sexually abused as a little boy, and did
25:23
Speaker 1: that trigger a memory of somebody his mother or somebody
25:27
Speaker 1: else poking him? Um? Why was that the thing that
25:30
Speaker 1: that drove him off the edge. And then another thing
25:33
Speaker 1: that's interesting, and this seems more psychopathic, is um that
25:38
Speaker 1: he got on the train, he called his sister and
25:40
Speaker 1: so on, and then he and his father and his
25:42
Speaker 1: sister they came to the home and they met the
25:45
Speaker 1: police and he you know where the police were waiting,
25:47
Speaker 1: and they cuffed him. And it's it's so quietly in
25:52
Speaker 1: other words, Um, you know, he just kind of went
25:55
Speaker 1: there and then he confessed and and that is strange
25:58
Speaker 1: as well. So all of these things you have to
26:00
Speaker 1: kind of put together to decide what kind of psychiatric
26:04
Speaker 1: problem he has. Not that not that that would necessarily
26:07
Speaker 1: get well hold on everybody you're all talking about his
26:12
Speaker 1: mental state. Joining me, Private investigator Vincent Hill. What I
26:16
Speaker 1: have learned, Vincent, is that this guy, a charge with
26:22
Speaker 1: drowning his mother in the pool of their one point
26:25
Speaker 1: nine million dollar mansion, had been taking heroin since high school.
26:33
Speaker 1: That's his ailment, Vincent Hill. He's been on heroin since
26:38
Speaker 1: high school and his mom had him in treatment. Yeah,
26:41
Speaker 1: that's the deal, Vincent. The pill he wasn't taking was
26:44
Speaker 1: his method home pill. We don't know. This reminds me
26:47
Speaker 1: of the case I worked when I was in Nashville
26:49
Speaker 1: where a son shot his mother in the head with
26:51
Speaker 1: a shotgun for six d dollars. The key important thing
26:55
Speaker 1: here is there's only one person telling this story about
26:58
Speaker 1: the pill and she poked him, and that is the
27:00
Speaker 1: suspect in this case, the sun. So yeah, we can
27:04
Speaker 1: talk this, Uh, psychology, we can talk all of that,
27:07
Speaker 1: but I think it still comes down to the elements
27:09
Speaker 1: of what happened that night to cause him to do
27:12
Speaker 1: that outside of the psychiatric piece of it. Was it money?
27:16
Speaker 1: Was it something else? If he was taking heroin? He
27:19
Speaker 1: took her car, he took her credit cards, he took
27:21
Speaker 1: her money. Was he trying to go out and score
27:23
Speaker 1: more drugs that night? We don't know. I think that
27:26
Speaker 1: will come out in court. Well. His mom, Mrs Cullen,
27:30
Speaker 1: and her investment banker husband Dennis, had been members of
27:34
Speaker 1: the Cold Spring Harbor Social Club, but they really began
27:39
Speaker 1: to withdraw from society and the local scene when their
27:44
Speaker 1: son's drug problem began. Now he was arrested in charging
27:49
Speaker 1: the brutal death of his mom after he tells cops
27:51
Speaker 1: he was really surprised his mother struggled so much when
27:54
Speaker 1: he dragged her out of the shower, had walked her
27:57
Speaker 1: through the house and then pulled her from the shallow
28:01
Speaker 1: into the deep end of their pool and a headlock
28:04
Speaker 1: she had gotten the shower. He comes up on her
28:08
Speaker 1: in the shower and all he has to say is
28:10
Speaker 1: why I was really surprised he fought back so much.
28:14
Speaker 1: This varsity and lacrosse player at Cold Springs High School
28:19
Speaker 1: had been in a row with his mom over antipsychotic medication.
28:23
Speaker 1: We know that he had been. She had gotten him
28:26
Speaker 1: in treatment for his heroine addiction. And then he has
28:31
Speaker 1: the good sense to take a train to New York
28:36
Speaker 1: to go to his sister's home and confess. He then
28:41
Speaker 1: gives a chilling, cold hearted confession to detectives, but pleads
28:48
Speaker 1: not guilty. Is that right, alexis to Russia like he
28:53
Speaker 1: has pled not guilty on this offense. YEP, that's exactly right.
28:57
Speaker 1: And he's saying that I didn't I don't know if
29:00
Speaker 1: the words I didn't do it. I'm not a lawyer,
29:02
Speaker 1: y'all are, but he with not guilty. He's saying, I'm
29:04
Speaker 1: not responsible for this death after everything, confessing to a
29:08
Speaker 1: sister admitting it. And his dad was there, and he
29:12
Speaker 1: was there when they found her body under a dinghy,
29:15
Speaker 1: under a little family vote and in the shed. Just
29:18
Speaker 1: left her there naked in the yard. You know, that's
29:20
Speaker 1: a whole another psychological aspect of this troice Laton with me,
29:25
Speaker 1: famed l a defense lawyer that not only did he
29:29
Speaker 1: kill his mother murder her, he leaves her body naked
29:32
Speaker 1: in the backyard to be found hidden under the family boat.
29:36
Speaker 1: I'm so excited if I were to be a defense
29:40
Speaker 1: attorney in a case like this that, well, those are
29:44
Speaker 1: three words I didn't expect. I'm so excited. But go ahead, Troy.
29:49
Speaker 1: Both the prosecutor and the psychological expert that spoke before
29:57
Speaker 1: me laid out the exact offense. This is a man
30:02
Speaker 1: who was on anti psychotic medication, was being treated for
30:07
Speaker 1: a psychological UH deficiency. He was on heroin, which is
30:14
Speaker 1: common for people that are suffering from psychiatric illness to
30:19
Speaker 1: self medicate to fight the demons that they're fighting to
30:23
Speaker 1: numb themselves. And then he is physically attacked by his
30:30
Speaker 1: mother who's poking him, And certainly right, did you say
30:35
Speaker 1: physically attacked because she takes her index finger and and
30:38
Speaker 1: punches him in the shoulder. That's the attack, Troy. That
30:41
Speaker 1: is by definition both an assault and a battery. It's
30:46
Speaker 1: unwelcomed touching. Did you ever prosecute your mother for a
30:51
Speaker 1: spanky spanky, then I'm sure you deserved, Troy. Well, maybe
30:54
Speaker 1: a spanky spanky to a five year old, but to
30:57
Speaker 1: a twenty three year old grown man, that's an assault,
31:01
Speaker 1: and it likely triggered this entire psychotic break and the
31:08
Speaker 1: reason why he was probably taking this antipsychotic medication caused
31:14
Speaker 1: him to do this horrific thing, which he freely admitted
31:19
Speaker 1: that he did and then walked back into the army.
31:23
Speaker 1: The only thing he sounds shocked about, Troy s Lightnes
31:26
Speaker 1: is the fact that he admitted he did it. Family shot.
31:33
Speaker 1: It came a husband was shoot son. The gun playing
31:40
Speaker 1: where it was didn't seem as a self inflicted wound
31:43
Speaker 1: that we've had in the past. We immediately spoke to
31:46
Speaker 1: h Mrs Gilbert and she told us where her son lived.
31:50
Speaker 1: I want to move on to another killer kid. His
31:53
Speaker 1: name is Thomas Gilbert Jr. A spoiled rot in Princeton
32:00
Speaker 1: grad who murders his dad for hold on everybody. As
32:06
Speaker 1: my son says, wait for it, wait for it. Mom
32:11
Speaker 1: kills his dad for cutting his allowance, cutting his allowance
32:20
Speaker 1: to Wendy Patrick, Southern California prosecutor, tell me about Thomas
32:24
Speaker 1: Gilbert please, Thomas Gilbert Jr. Yeah, you know, this is
32:28
Speaker 1: one of those cases, Nancy, where again it looks like
32:30
Speaker 1: there's something going on behind the scenes mentally with this
32:33
Speaker 1: kid in order to be able to understand he's you please,
32:37
Speaker 1: but saying that he's mad, he's angry, he's getting his
32:41
Speaker 1: allowance cut, right, Nancy. But that's going to be the
32:43
Speaker 1: defense And and from with my prosecutors had on clearly
32:47
Speaker 1: that his actions speak louder than words, and that shouldn't
32:49
Speaker 1: be something that the jury is going to be able
32:51
Speaker 1: to consider to walk him. But from the defense perspective,
32:54
Speaker 1: you know, that's what they're gonna argue merely because of
32:56
Speaker 1: the sheer insanity of that. And I put that word
32:59
Speaker 1: in quotes. For sure, this shared just unreasonable nature of
33:04
Speaker 1: why this would possibly set somebody off. So we're gonna
33:07
Speaker 1: be looking at the background of this man. We're gonna
33:09
Speaker 1: be looking at his activity after the fact, and as
33:12
Speaker 1: you're a psychologists, as our psychologist colleagues are going to say,
33:16
Speaker 1: is this somebody that's more lingering or faking an illness
33:18
Speaker 1: in order to try to get out from under this
33:20
Speaker 1: horrendous crime that he's faced. I've got to ask a
33:25
Speaker 1: very important question, choice light before you tune up again.
33:28
Speaker 1: Alexa's terrest checked. There's Luke and Owen Wilson. Which one
33:32
Speaker 1: is the blond one? Owen, You're a little slow on
33:37
Speaker 1: the uptight there, Alexa. I'm sorry for you. It's Owen Owen.
33:41
Speaker 1: This guy looks a little bit like Owen Wilson with
33:44
Speaker 1: the steely blue eyes glaring at you. He's got uh
33:49
Speaker 1: fine uh finally, etched features a perfectly straight nose. You
33:56
Speaker 1: should see his teeth. I'm sure they had to spend
33:58
Speaker 1: at least ten grand on that mouth. This is how
34:00
Speaker 1: it goes down, alexis the dad Senior is a hedge
34:04
Speaker 1: fund boss. The mom, Shelly says she knew immediately her
34:12
Speaker 1: son Thomas did it because that day he insisted the
34:17
Speaker 1: mom go out of the apartment and go get him
34:21
Speaker 1: the son a sandwich. I mean really, I mean that's
34:25
Speaker 1: just the whole another can of worms right there. So
34:27
Speaker 1: the mom leaves to go get him a sandwich, and
34:29
Speaker 1: she comes back. She just stepped out, briefly, gets the sandwich,
34:33
Speaker 1: comes back, her husband's dead on the floor, and it's
34:37
Speaker 1: been set up to look like suicide. Gee, I wonder
34:42
Speaker 1: who did that. Apparently Junior staged the scene of his
34:47
Speaker 1: father's shooting to make it look like a suicide, but
34:50
Speaker 1: the mom knew immediately it was murder. Okay, there's a
34:55
Speaker 1: lot of pictures of him at fancy society sin Digs,
34:58
Speaker 1: wearing a tuxedo, flashing ten thousand dollar smile. But here's
35:03
Speaker 1: what led to the arrest. The PC probable cause because
35:11
Speaker 1: his allowance was going to be cut, a weekly allowance
35:17
Speaker 1: from six hundred to four hundred. Yes, yes, from six
35:24
Speaker 1: hundred to four hundred a week. This is a rotten
35:29
Speaker 1: Princeton grad living off his mom and dad. Alexis to arrest, Like,
35:36
Speaker 1: what are the rest of the facts as we know
35:38
Speaker 1: them now? So when he gets arrested and starts going
35:43
Speaker 1: through the court system, he checks out, He doesn't show
35:47
Speaker 1: up for things, he refuses to speak. He basically is
35:52
Speaker 1: pretending that I don't pretending might not be the right word,
35:55
Speaker 1: but he is acting as if he doesn't have any
35:58
Speaker 1: interest in this case. What's ever trying to set up
36:01
Speaker 1: a defense of that he is psychotic. And then he
36:04
Speaker 1: cannot participate in this at all. But you know, the
36:07
Speaker 1: judge almost bought into this, and this is another affluencic case.
36:11
Speaker 1: You know, she wrote that this is an atypical defend
36:14
Speaker 1: and he stands over judge saying that stands over six
36:17
Speaker 1: ft tall, has blonde hair and blue eyes, as if
36:19
Speaker 1: having blonde hair and blue eyes means you don't commit
36:21
Speaker 1: a crime. So she's prince blue eyes. But that's another
36:28
Speaker 1: topic for another day. Go ahead. He then, just as
36:35
Speaker 1: I said, checks out completely, doesn't participate in anything for
36:38
Speaker 1: the trial, trying to set it up as if he
36:41
Speaker 1: is insane. But New York has one of the strictest
36:44
Speaker 1: is one of the strictest states in the country. They
36:47
Speaker 1: never allow a mental defense, very very very rarely. It's
36:52
Speaker 1: it's a huge effort to get that. And so he
36:56
Speaker 1: was forced to stand trial for his dad's murder. Well
36:58
Speaker 1: here's the deal. Senior. Gilbert Senior had been a very
37:01
Speaker 1: successful Wall Street banker who lived in an Upper east
37:05
Speaker 1: Side brown stone that costs a lot of money. Then
37:09
Speaker 1: he tried to start his own hedge fund and it failed.
37:11
Speaker 1: He had to sell his home and start renting an apartment.
37:14
Speaker 1: It was still in a tony area of town. It
37:16
Speaker 1: was at Beatmon Place. They had owned a home in
37:20
Speaker 1: the Hampton's They rented that out. They had been a
37:24
Speaker 1: member of the high class Maidstone Club like a country club.
37:29
Speaker 1: Now the son as the father, is hitting hard times
37:32
Speaker 1: renting out their home, renting an apartment. Gilbert Jr. Known
37:37
Speaker 1: as Tommy, meanwhile, it was not working. Even though he
37:42
Speaker 1: had an economics degree from Princeton University. People would give
37:47
Speaker 1: their eye teeth to get in Princeton University. You know what, Um,
37:55
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've told you guys that my
37:56
Speaker 1: little nephew, one of them is well, they're also and smart.
38:00
Speaker 1: One went to brown when just my nephet niece went
38:03
Speaker 1: to Stanford. The one the other one, um just got
38:09
Speaker 1: into Chicago and n y U and just all sorts
38:15
Speaker 1: of awesome schools for a graduate degree. When we found
38:19
Speaker 1: out we all started crying because awesome schools like that
38:22
Speaker 1: just don't happen to regular people like us. It was
38:26
Speaker 1: just such a dream come true. And here's this guy
38:28
Speaker 1: with a silver spoon hanging out of his mouth and
38:31
Speaker 1: economics degree from Princeton University. He relies on his dad
38:38
Speaker 1: to cover his twenty four hundred dollar rent. That's two thousand,
38:43
Speaker 1: four hundred dollars a month rent on his Chelsea apartment
38:48
Speaker 1: plus a weekly six hundred dollar allowance Vincent Hill, private investigator.
38:55
Speaker 1: You and I kind of grew up alike hundred dollars
39:00
Speaker 1: rent plus twenty dollars spending money a month off your dad. Well, listen, Nancy,
39:07
Speaker 1: my son would be lucky if he got twenty four
39:09
Speaker 1: dollars for me, you know, because doing chores and that
39:14
Speaker 1: things are things you're supposed to do as a child. Um,
39:17
Speaker 1: but you know, I want to stay listen. If he's pleading,
39:21
Speaker 1: you know, mental illness, I call crap on that, because
39:24
Speaker 1: if you stage a scene of a crime to make
39:27
Speaker 1: it look like something else, you were in your right mind.
39:30
Speaker 1: You had your right census to know exactly what you
39:34
Speaker 1: were doing, So you can't come back later and say
39:37
Speaker 1: mentally ill. But yet you were in your right mind
39:39
Speaker 1: to stage this crime scene to make it look like
39:42
Speaker 1: your dad killed himself. You know, that's an excellent point,
39:45
Speaker 1: did Dr Carol Lieberman, forensic psychiatrists and author of a
39:49
Speaker 1: Brandy book on Amazon? Vincent Hill is right, he stayed
39:54
Speaker 1: to to look like a suicide. He's that crazy. Well,
39:58
Speaker 1: you know, yes, that's the one thing that kind of
40:00
Speaker 1: points to the fact that at least at the time
40:02
Speaker 1: of the crime, he knew what he was doing. But
40:05
Speaker 1: and even further, uh, the mother actually it was her
40:09
Speaker 1: father who committed suicide, so he may well not only
40:12
Speaker 1: was he trying to make it look like a suicide
40:15
Speaker 1: in other words, that he didn't do it, but that
40:18
Speaker 1: he it was kind of a a way of getting
40:21
Speaker 1: back at his mother, who seems like a very cold
40:24
Speaker 1: woman from the quotes that she's been quoted as saying, wow, wow, wow,
40:29
Speaker 1: Why is she told well, she walked into There have
40:33
Speaker 1: been quotes from her where she just seems to not
40:35
Speaker 1: be in touch. I don't mean in touch with reality
40:38
Speaker 1: in terms of psychotic but I mean she's just very,
40:41
Speaker 1: very cold towards her children. She went into the church
40:44
Speaker 1: to tell her her daughter when this happened the police
40:47
Speaker 1: told her to go and tell her daughter right away
40:49
Speaker 1: because the son was they didn't know where he was,
40:52
Speaker 1: and they thought maybe he would go after his sister.
40:55
Speaker 1: And she went in and she told the daughter, uh,
40:58
Speaker 1: you know, your father is dead, and just in the
41:00
Speaker 1: middle of the church where everyone could hear what was
41:03
Speaker 1: going on, and of course the sister sobbed, started sobbing
41:06
Speaker 1: and so on. They're just different. Wait a minute, Wait
41:08
Speaker 1: a minute. I remember when I found out I was.
41:16
Speaker 1: I asked the question, is Keith gone my fiancee who
41:20
Speaker 1: was murdered. His sister said yes. I dropped the pay phone.
41:28
Speaker 1: I my hands are full of books, school books. I
41:32
Speaker 1: stumbled down some stairs and into an office where my
41:36
Speaker 1: brother Matt worked in admissions at the university. I dropped
41:41
Speaker 1: all the books and blurted out to everybody standing there.
41:45
Speaker 1: I don't even remember who was there, Keith is dead.
41:48
Speaker 1: I screamed it. Everybody heard it, and I can promise
41:53
Speaker 1: you it was not calculated or cold or anything else.
41:56
Speaker 1: It's every It's all just a big blur at that point.
42:01
Speaker 1: So but you were filled with the you had emotion.
42:04
Speaker 1: I mean you that was different. Here I have the
42:06
Speaker 1: quote she was she in the middle of the church,
42:08
Speaker 1: she said to her daughter, Daddy's dead and Tommy shot him. Well,
42:12
Speaker 1: I still don't think that that's cold. How do I
42:14
Speaker 1: know she didn't scream it out just like I. I
42:16
Speaker 1: mean before I would say a murder victim's wife in
42:21
Speaker 1: the hour after your husband and many many years has
42:24
Speaker 1: been shot dead by your son, Well, there was trying
42:28
Speaker 1: to find your daughter and telling her I don't know
42:30
Speaker 1: that that's I don't think that's cold. But also that
42:33
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with this murder. Carol Well, there
42:36
Speaker 1: were just a number of quotes like that that kind
42:38
Speaker 1: of painted a picture of what what the reason why
42:41
Speaker 1: I was bringing what does that have to do with
42:42
Speaker 1: the murder? May I ask? What I was why I
42:44
Speaker 1: was bringing it up was because when he staged the
42:47
Speaker 1: murder as if it were suicide, it was not only
42:50
Speaker 1: to get him off the hook, but it was also
42:53
Speaker 1: as a commentary against his mother, whose father had committed suicide.
42:58
Speaker 1: That was my point. And I think that you know
43:01
Speaker 1: whether he is malingering and is not really mentally ill.
43:05
Speaker 1: I mean, there were a number of things that he
43:07
Speaker 1: did before this, over the last the few years before
43:10
Speaker 1: he shot his father that were evidence of mental problems,
43:15
Speaker 1: of course, not necessarily schizophrenia or something like that. But
43:18
Speaker 1: he was known to have taken LSD and steroids, so
43:21
Speaker 1: it seems to have been sort of a mixture of
43:24
Speaker 1: things that we're going How is voluntary use of drugs
43:28
Speaker 1: a mental defense. I'm not saying in terms of mental defense,
43:33
Speaker 1: but I'm saying the combination of whatever underlying mental illness
43:38
Speaker 1: he might well have that the drugs made the whole
43:41
Speaker 1: thing worse. And Joyce Lytton l a defense lawyer, we
43:47
Speaker 1: all know that voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is
43:50
Speaker 1: not a defense. That's certainly not a defense. But you
43:54
Speaker 1: also have to be able to assist your counsel in
43:59
Speaker 1: your defense. And here that's a good that's a good
44:03
Speaker 1: point that he is unable to assist, that he can't
44:06
Speaker 1: even communicate with his client. And we have to remember
44:09
Speaker 1: that previously to court appointed, not prosecution appointed, not defense appointed,
44:16
Speaker 1: but to court appointed psychiatrists both were unanimous in finding
44:22
Speaker 1: that he was unfit to stand trial, that he should
44:25
Speaker 1: be sent to a mental institution to be stabilized. And
44:29
Speaker 1: it was because a skilled prosecutor in Manhattan, somebody as
44:34
Speaker 1: good as Wendy Patrick was able to convince the judge
44:39
Speaker 1: to have another hearing where they were able to convince
44:42
Speaker 1: the judge that no, he is fit. But then he
44:45
Speaker 1: goes and swallows a battery and his attorney is saying
44:50
Speaker 1: that he cannot even communicate with his clients. Well, that's funny.
44:53
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick. Wendy Patrick, Southern California prosecutor and Troy Slayton
44:58
Speaker 1: l a defense lawyer ruining me in addition to Alexis
45:01
Speaker 1: to rest Chuck write our online Vincent Hill, private investigator
45:05
Speaker 1: and Dr Carol Lieberman, author and forensic psychiatrist. Wendy Patrick,
45:10
Speaker 1: That's that's odd because just the other day, Uh, Gilbert
45:15
Speaker 1: was offered a plea that would spare him life behind
45:18
Speaker 1: bars and the judge that are you interested in that?
45:20
Speaker 1: He stands up and went stands up in court, looks
45:23
Speaker 1: at the judges says, uh, now, your honor, Yeah, you know, um,
45:28
Speaker 1: I don't see the middle. That's the tricky thing with
45:31
Speaker 1: mental illness is it's very different than competency to stand trial. Obviously,
45:35
Speaker 1: as as Troy points out, a lawyer's got to be
45:37
Speaker 1: able to communicate with this client. From this young man's perspective, however,
45:42
Speaker 1: you know that we could be talking about two very
45:44
Speaker 1: different things. The sophistication and pre planning necessary to plan
45:48
Speaker 1: that crime and alleged cover up is something that belies
45:52
Speaker 1: a an insanity defense regarding him not knowing right from wrong.
45:57
Speaker 1: So it's one of those things where he can't base it.
46:00
Speaker 1: We run from justice forever by engaging in a series
46:03
Speaker 1: of competency hearings, which is what apparently has been going on.
46:07
Speaker 1: So when the judge orders him to see a psychiatrist
46:10
Speaker 1: or risk losing his right to win insanity defense, what
46:13
Speaker 1: they'll probably do is use the results of that defense
46:15
Speaker 1: to argue incompetence, not insanity, thereby kicking the proceedings out
46:21
Speaker 1: even further. But this is one of these cases where
46:24
Speaker 1: we're beginning to worry that justice delayed is becoming justice denied. Well,
46:29
Speaker 1: this is what I know. You guys can call it
46:32
Speaker 1: whatever you want, but Dad is on the hook for
46:35
Speaker 1: undred dollar a month apartment for this guy, this Princeton graduate,
46:42
Speaker 1: and two hundred dollars a month for spending money. I mean,
46:50
Speaker 1: what a rotten brat. Court goes on Nancy Grace Crime Stories,
46:58
Speaker 1: signing off, Goodbye friend,