Latest / Project Podcast / What makes a great project manager? (Part 2)

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What makes a great project manager? (Part 2) · Project Podcast

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Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the project profession. My name is Emma DVD, and I'm the
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editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host
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today. In this podcast, we're talking
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about the secrets of being a great project manager.
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It's January and the time of year when many of us have New
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Year's resolutions, or maybe just a vague idea of how we want
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to change things up. So listen on for some excellent
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advice from APM's Childhood Project Professional of the
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Year, Tamzin Ali Balogun, who's also associate director for
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Transporter ACCS Realist Paul Chapman OBE of the University of
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Oxford Side Business School, where he is Academy director of
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the UK Government's Major Project Leadership Academy, and
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the older managing director for major infrastructure delivery at
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Anglian Water and Anne Marie Purcell of Purcell Advisory.
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If you want even more top tips, then listen to our first
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installment of this podcast back in January 2025.
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First, let's listen to Tamsin Ali Balagun for her secrets to
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success. She says to keep focus on what
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you need to do every day to achieve what needs to get done
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in your project is what's needed.
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Keep asking yourself what are we trying to do on this project and
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prioritise, prioritise, prioritise.
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And finally, remember that no project manager can be excellent
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at everything. I think when it comes to a great
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project manager, it's very it's very context specific.
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So I think different project managers can be great in
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different in different contexts, but but in terms of kind of what
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tends what you tend to see when people are being great as
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project managers, what they tend to be doing.
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So I think the first thing I would say is that it's all about
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that focus on what the project is aiming to do and the keeping
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that daily kind of practise of of focusing what is this project
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aiming to do? And therefore, what do I need to
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do as a project manager to get that project kind of towards
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that aim, you know, as as well as I can.
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And I think where that goes wrong and where people aren't as
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great, perhaps in their project management as they could be is
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where you, you gather all the great knowledge of the tools and
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the techniques and the best practise, but you lose sight of
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what you're trying to achieve. And you can get lost then in
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doing all of those, those best practises and they no longer
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become best practise. It it would, it would be a best
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practise in another context, perhaps.
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But because you've lost track on, you know, sort of where
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you're going, you start to use the tools in a way that isn't
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kind of as, as as pragmatic as it could be.
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So I think that's one thing is just to keep asking yourself,
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what are we trying to do with this project?
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What are we aiming at? And what do I need to do?
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What do I need to use and how do I need to use it to steer this
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project and this team in the right direction?
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So that'd be the first thing I think kind of related to that is
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about prioritising. So prioritise, prioritise,
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prioritise every we, we cannot do everything that we need to do
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as a project manager or that we want to do because time is time
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is constrained and you know, there's always going to be lots
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of things that people want us to do, etcetera.
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So it's all about what are, you know, what are our biggest
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risks? What are the issues that we need
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to deal with urgently? What, what are our stakeholder
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expectations? What do we need to make sure
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other people know? And therefore, kind of in our
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day-to-day, making sure that we're really staying focused on
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the priority things. And again, not getting kind of
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distracted into the things that we might enjoy as a project
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manager, kind of tidying up, you know, this and that register and
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schedule and these sorts of things.
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We need them, but we need to make sure we're using them in a
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way that kind of lets us deal with the priorities and kind of
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takes us forward. OK, that sounds like 2 pieces of
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really great advice. I wanted to ask you about the
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people side of things. So the way that you manage
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people, is there anyone that you've worked with or that you
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recognise in yourself that you do well as and and helps make
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you a really good project manager?
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So I think, I think it's really important as project managers
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that we that we influence and how we influence.
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It's a really personal thing. There is not one way of being
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influential. I think that's the risk is when
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you look at how other people influence, you think, oh, they
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are influencing really well. People listen to them.
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If you then if you are not them and you try to kind of just just
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reproduce what they do, you might well find that that
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doesn't work for you. So I think kind of influencing
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and being able to deal with people well is one of those
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trial and error things. As a project manager, you have
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to find your way. You have to find your way that
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works for your personality, your skill set, for your career
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stage. And it will be different for
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everybody. So I've, I've kind of learnt
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different bits of kind of how I influence or how I kind of
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manage situations from, from different people that I've seen
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kind of do it well. I think in particular, someone I
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used to work with who was actually more more in management
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than in project management, but she was brilliant at chairing a
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meeting and just excellent kind of keeping everybody on track
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and really owning it. And that is something that I do
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try to emulate when I'm trying to kind of work through a
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workshop. It's really important that you
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cover everything in the time and being able to sort of stop
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people when we're going down rabbit holes and kind of finding
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ways of bringing everybody back on track in a way that's polite,
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that kind of builds that rapport, but is really clear is
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something that I've, I've learned, I learned first from
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her and I've kind of made a bit of a reputation for myself
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around being able to do that quite well.
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So, so that's what 1 aspect kind of when you're in a group
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situation. But, but I think when we're
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dealing kind of 1 to one with people, there's a different,
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very different kind of skill set needed there.
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And sometimes it will be a more kind of reverent position that
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we will take and a more kind of humbly asking for advice.
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And, you know, kind of people will feel more likely to trust
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us if they feel like we're listening to them.
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So, so that can be, you know, actually quite a powerful way of
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influencing is actually to give people that time to, to listen
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and kind of respect their view and build the rapport that way.
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And then in other situations, it'll be much more directive and
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people will be looking to us, you know, to find out what they
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need to do and really, really kind of hanging on every word.
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And so I think it's you've got to be flexible as a project
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manager, you've got to be able to read that situation as best
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you can, try things and change and be open to kind of realising
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that a situation didn't go very well.
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Doesn't mean that you know, you can't do it just means that next
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time you need to kind of think a little bit differently about how
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you approach it, plan it a little bit differently and, and
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try again because that that we will all have conversations that
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don't go well. However, however experienced we
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are, nobody's ever kind of perfected it because because
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it's always so kind of context specific.
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Yes, you're right and I really like what you're saying.
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I think part of what you're saying is know yourself for what
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works for you. So you only think maybe you can
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pick and choose what you admire from other people that seem
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successful, but then you make it your own.
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Will you work what's best for you and?
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To have that adaptability to. Different situations and I guess
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you're just learning the whole time how to do it better, don't
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you, from every experience you have.
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I just had a couple of last questions.
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One would be, what's the difference between a good
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project manager and someone who's excellent, You know, the
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people that you notice. Is that something you've ever
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thought about or noticed? I think that's a really good
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question. And I think it's one that all
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project managers kind of should should be asking of themselves.
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You know, am I, am I excelling at what I do?
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And I think my view is that once you've achieved kind of
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competence as a project manager, by which I mean you've got some
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theory behind, you've got some qualifications, you've developed
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some confidence and you've kind of developed your network a bit.
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You've got that experience of different types of projects.
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You're starting to feel like you do know what you're doing and
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you know this is the career for you.
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Being able to show excellence then becomes context specific
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and it's again, it's back to the fact that you come with your own
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strengths. So project management is really
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broad. There's loads of bits to it.
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I'm not brilliant at all the bits I don't think any of us
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could say that we were. So there will be contexts and
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projects and people where if you put me as a project manager, I
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will do brilliantly well. There'll be other contexts where
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you put me as a project manager and I hope I would be competent,
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but I might accept competent as, as, you know, the best I could
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do in that situation situation. And that's why I think as we go
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through a career, we work on different types of projects,
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realising and working out kind of which are those contexts that
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allow us to bring out our strengths and to do what we do
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with, with kind of skills experience that we've got really
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well. You know that that's really what
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you're aiming for, isn't it? So that you you can thrive in
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your career and people that have got different skill sets and
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project managers that kind of prefer a slightly different way
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of working can go into those kind of other contexts and do
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brilliantly well there. So I think there's this space,
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it's for all of us, but sometimes when you feel like,
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oh, perhaps I'm not as good as I thought I was, you probably just
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found yourself in the wrong context for your particular kind
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of skill set at that time. It's not to say you could never
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thrive in that, but perhaps right now a different type of
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project might might be a better fit.
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OK, I love that. I love that.
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Then finally, because we're recording this in January and
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people tend to make New Year's resolutions and I think the
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stats say by now most people have given up on them like we
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were over halfway through January.
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But it is a good point. It is.
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It's kind of the time of year when everyone thinks about what
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they might want to change or do better.
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And I wondered if you had any news resolutions or any ideas
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about or any focus on what you want to improve or work on in
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terms of being a project manager in 2020?
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Six, yes, I, I am. I do like to kind of take the
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beginning of the year to think, well, Christmas is over and it's
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that kind of little space at the start of the year before
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everything gets busy. So I do tend to kind of be be
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like a kind of a New Year's resolution type.
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So for me this year, I think it's about being slightly more
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deliberate in reading around the subject.
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And it's not to say that I haven't read around the subject
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of project management in the past, but I do tend to just pick
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out the bits I'm really interested in and read more
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about those bits and skim over, you know, perhaps the things
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that aren't don't jump out as at me as being kind of quite so
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interesting. But what I think I've kind of
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realised that that does tend to take you a little bit into into
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something of an echo chamber where you're only ever listening
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to things that you kind of enjoy hearing.
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And maybe focus on areas of project management that that you
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already probably do quite well. And maybe don't need to kind of
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focus as much on in, in rounding yourself off and working to that
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kind of that standard of excellence that that we're all
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kind of doing as we go through our career.
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So I think for me, that means, for example, when I get Project
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magazine, read all of it, not just flick it and read the bits
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that, Oh, I like that topic. I'll read that because I found
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that as I've started to do that and I have started.
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You do think actually that was more interesting than I thought
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it would be. It was more relevant to me than
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I thought it would be. So it's that sort of judging a
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book by its cover. I kind of just getting past that
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and being a bit more disciplined so that what might be on social
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media, or it might be, as I say, with Project magazine, it might
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be that I'll go to some webinars or some events where the, the
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topic doesn't jump out at me at first.
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But I think actually this is where I need to be finding out
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like what this does mean for me. And, and that's where I'll kind
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of learn more this year. So I think that's, that's my
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main one. And then I think there's also
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because I won the, the chartered project Professional of the Year
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award last year, which was all about recognising people who
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give back to the profession. And I do give back to the
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profession. So it's lovely to have that,
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that recognition, but it does make me think, OK, I need I, you
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know, the more, the more that you are recognised for doing it,
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the more you feel that that duty, the more of a platform you
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have to sort of be, be that role model.
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So the other part for me is thinking, what does that mean
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for me to be a role model? Where are there opportunities
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that I'm not taking to kind of give back more or give back in a
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slightly more kind of strategic way?
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Or perhaps it's kind of to do some more deep, deeper mentoring
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with project managers, you know, where, where can I get better at
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doing that? So I don't think we should, we
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should ever be kind of complacent.
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OK. Tamsin, that was brilliant.
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Thank you. Is there anything else you'd
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like to add? I think the only thing that I
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thought I would like to add probably is about being proud of
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what we do. And this is something that I've
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been on quite a journey with in my in my career.
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Because when I moved into my current organisation, which is
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an engineering design organisation primarily, I really
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felt conscious that most people were engineers and I wasn't.
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And I and I didn't feel as proud to be arriving as a project
13:01
manager as I look back and I think I should have been.
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So I think being proud of kind of what you do as a project
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professional, it's really important to to kind of keep
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your confidence going to keep your morale up when things, you
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know, inevitably get harder and easier as the year goes on.
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So in those kind of low points, I think having that pride and
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where you can kind of draw on that pride is by going out and
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kind of spending time with other project professionals, which is
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what I do. And I love it.
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And I get really excited these days for networking where it's,
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you know, other events and events where I will be with
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other project professionals don't even have to be talking
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about projects. It's just getting to know other
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people who are in similar kind of roles to you, listening to
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them talking about what they do. I feel like this kind of really
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helps you understand the impact of of this career, this
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profession on society. And it really does make you much
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more proud to kind of be doing what you're doing.
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And then you can bring that pride kind of back into your
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day-to-day. So I think that's something that
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I would love to see more project managers starting to get engaged
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this year with the with the with the profession to build their
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own networks and just to kind of see how much that kind of rounds
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you off as a project manager and and gives you that energy.
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Now let's listen to Paul Chapman, who believes that a
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great project manager is someone who's doing something they love.
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Project professionals really shine when the work they do is
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something they feel passionate about and bring their talents to
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bear. I I won't make any claims about
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me, but I have a very fortunate position of working with a lot
14:38
of different project managers. So I think I've got to see in
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action somewhere between 2 and 3000, which is, which is not a
14:49
bad data set and there are a few of them that really stand out.
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I think the jumping off point here is being good, excellent.
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Yeah, we love that. But the question is what makes a
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great project manager? And I think one of the things
15:07
that really stands out is people doing something they love.
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And there's something about project professionals, which is
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they can get projects done and. Yeah, some days better than
15:20
others, some projects but than others.
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But you can see they really shine when it's something they
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feel passionate about and they can bring all their talents to
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bed. I think that's important because
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as professionals we should be professional.
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And then you're on at your best when it's something you love
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doing. So there's not just been good at
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it which practise and technique, there's that kind of next layer.
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And I think in the really great project managers that they're
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doing something more so getting the project done, well done,
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round of applause. But they're thinking left and
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right. They're thinking up and down.
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And I think the left and right is important by which I mean
16:08
sort of timeline that they're thinking about the outcome that
16:12
they will deliver. So great project managers
16:15
understand operations. When we land this capability
16:19
into practise, what will it do? What are some of the tricky
16:22
things that we'll encounter in the future, Next week, the week
16:26
after next month, when it's been running for 10 years?
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OK. So they're doing stuff now in
16:34
anticipation of that, but they're sort of thinking to the
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left as well, which is sort of thinking back in time, which is
16:43
kind of they're sort of planning the next project.
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So, so great project managers getting stuff done should have
16:50
been in place to advise people when they were thinking about
16:55
the project. In the public sector, advising
16:59
on policy in the private sector, advising on strategy and
17:04
planning. We're going to do some wondrous
17:07
thing. The great project manager is on
17:10
hand to provide that advice. You can do pretty much anything
17:14
in any way. However, I would advise
17:18
recommend these following things that I think that's the thinking
17:21
sort of left and thinking right and the thinking up thinking
17:27
down idea is love them or load the most of us operate in a
17:32
hierarchy. There are people with sort of
17:34
authority different levels of power.
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Hey ho, let's let's just run with that really great project
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managers can think up. So what are their clients
17:45
thinking? What are the demands and
17:47
challenges they face or in an organisation, what's the kind of
17:51
what's the boss thinking? And actually what's their boss
17:55
thinking? So trying to understand their
17:58
position, to anticipate the challenges.
18:03
So if project managers are the people getting stuff done,
18:06
they're often reporting into people who have to manage
18:09
budgets and finance and for reasons outside of everyone's
18:12
control, spending this year might not be as much or could be
18:17
more than anticipated. Great project managers have
18:22
already explored those ideas. Maybe the organisation strategy
18:27
has up to pivot. Great project managers have
18:30
anticipated that. And then thinking down, one of
18:35
the things we we we really took away from COVID pandemic
18:38
experience was really understanding who frontline
18:42
workers are because they're really people who get stuff
18:45
done. And great project managers know
18:49
about the people who will be delivering the projects.
18:53
So operation metres, but also frontline stuff.
18:57
So they're acting as the risk of using a fancy term interlocutor
19:03
that they're working across boundaries and representing
19:07
interests up and representing interests down.
19:10
So they're very enabling and supportive.
19:14
So I think that's some of the things that they do.
19:16
They also do something more in terms of legacy.
19:22
We think about the Iron triangle getting projects done on cost,
19:27
on time deliver. I think that often misses a
19:33
fourth something or or stool triangle, the fourth thing,
19:38
which is which is people. And it was the sort of late
19:44
Martin Barnes who referred to project management as people
19:47
getting stuff done. And the people element is really
19:50
important on a bad day on a project, you can get stuff done,
19:56
but you're really squeezing the asset, bleeding the resource.
20:03
Basically it the consequences on people and great project
20:07
managers use the project to develop.
20:11
And enhance capability, not deplete it.
20:14
And I think that leans in a little bit of, you know, one of
20:18
the great project managers look to achieve or get project done,
20:23
yes. And also leave a legacy.
20:27
And often that legacy is in that tea.
20:29
They're they're better, they've had exposure, they've had
20:32
experience, they've they've come on because of the project.
20:40
And I think somewhere in there is also this mix of having
20:44
anticipated some stuff goes right and some stuff goes wrong.
20:50
So how do you protect and support the team and treat them
20:55
as adults? It didn't grow quite to plan.
20:59
What did we learn? It did go to plan and some what
21:03
did we learn? And then they're also
21:06
communicating that up the hierarchy, which again to fancy
21:10
pants it is by exploring like, so exploring risk appetite and
21:18
really explaining and giving seniors visibility.
21:21
Can you guarantee me that this gets done?
21:24
Of course I can't. There's a risk.
21:27
I will outline the risk, but we can also explain the opportunity
21:31
that exists. So giving options for what if
21:37
things start to crack under the strain, what can we do to close
21:44
the project there on secure revenue as is, But also if
21:49
things start to go right, where might some options be to explore
21:54
this and expose this a bit further and really release the
21:59
potential. So great project managers doing
22:03
something that I love doing it well, doing it professionally,
22:06
leaving a legacy. Do you know, the only thing I've
22:08
had is, and I'm sort of, it's the place, I mean, it's the
22:14
really good understanding of data and performance.
22:18
So I I know what I do, and I can see results that come from my
22:26
effort and our team's efforts. But how does that roof fit into
22:32
a wider landscape? And that's where we need really
22:35
good data. And I think the analogy is with
22:39
people in medicine. So you know that they do their
22:43
best to support patients and get patients, families and so on,
22:47
and they'll always give the best advice.
22:51
But medicine and public health is all about understanding
22:55
statistics and efficacy and we have a version of that in
23:00
project management which is if I do this do I get that And it and
23:05
it might not be guaranteed, it might not be a straight line,
23:09
but it might be. If you do this, you are more
23:12
likely to get the output you sort then doing option B and
23:19
that requires data and that requires a sort of a sort of
23:24
degree of science to be in operation at professional level.
23:30
So understanding data and performance and and
23:32
understanding efficacy, but also contributing to that
23:39
understanding I think is the way the profession moves forward
23:43
collectively. So not so much project people
23:48
getting this project done, but the profession getting projects
23:53
done better when the profession is individuals.
23:57
So there's something in there as well.
23:59
Can't quite put my finger on it as precisely.
24:04
Andy Alder tells us that he's never come across a great
24:07
project manager who isn't also a great project leader.
24:10
Because in the real world, you need to bring those two things
24:13
together to be successful. You need to have a positive
24:16
mindset and the resilience to deal with setbacks that come
24:19
along. A top productivity tip?
24:22
If you're faced with a problem, start dealing with that
24:24
challenge straight away. Just get on with it.
24:27
Let's listen on for some more wise words.
24:31
I think it's, it's a combination of the, the clearly there's the
24:35
skills you know, of, of a project manager, all the kind of
24:38
the, the functions that sit within project management and
24:40
having the, the kind of skills and knowledge to, to apply
24:44
those. But I think that that's, that's
24:46
the kind of foundation. I don't think you can.
24:51
I know we understand what the difference is between leadership
24:54
and management, but I've, but I've never come across a good
24:59
project manager who's also not a, a good leader because,
25:02
because in practise you need bring those together.
25:06
Because everything we to, to apply the skills and the methods
25:09
of project management and to, to, to, to make them effective.
25:12
We need to bring people with us. And therefore there's that kind
25:16
of good, good dose of leadership to go with it.
25:19
Another thing that kind of the mindset pieces around, you know,
25:22
we project project management for, for small projects and
25:27
large projects, you get hit all the time with, with challenges
25:30
that come along, you know, issues that, that, that, that
25:35
arise. So having that kind of positive
25:37
mindset to, to understand and be focused on what you're trying to
25:41
achieve and not lose sight of that and to see your way through
25:46
the challenges that come along and to have the resilience to,
25:49
to, to deal with those kind of setbacks.
25:53
It is, is in is important. I think there's also a healthy
25:59
dose of, without beginning to kind of pessimistic about
26:03
things, there's a healthy dose of thinking about what could go
26:06
wrong here, What are the things that could really go wrong here
26:08
and what we're going to do to avoid them going wrong.
26:10
So there's a kind of blend of optimism of dealing with stuff
26:15
and pessimism of thinking like, what could go wrong?
26:17
What are they do to stop that going wrong?
26:21
Is there anything about so 2026 beginning for new year?
26:28
There's so much change that's come about in the last few
26:30
years. I'm thinking of AI because
26:33
you're political change. Have you got any advice to
26:37
people about how to manage all this change?
26:41
And it's ever increasing and it's fundamentally could change
26:46
the way we work and we are working what what advice would
26:52
you give to project managers about dealing well with this and
26:55
kind of thriving rather than just kind of flailing about and
26:59
feeling confused and anxious about everything?
27:02
Yeah, it's, I mean, you're right, there is a, there's a
27:05
lot, there's a lot going on, a lot, a lot of change.
27:10
And clearly we need to be conscious of that and think
27:13
about how that effects what we're, what we're trying to do.
27:19
So there is a danger you could spend all of your time worrying
27:22
about all the changes going on and, and how to navigate.
27:26
So I think there's a bit of trying to simplify things a bit
27:29
to, to understand, OK, what is the change that's going on?
27:33
How do I know enough about that to know what I've got to do to
27:36
manage my way through it? And then, and then focus on the,
27:39
the things you can do to, to, to manage through, through, through
27:45
change. And I guess it's like a lot of
27:47
challenges that come off in project management is that
27:52
there's a, there's an eminent judgement of how much detail do
27:54
I need to know about this problem to know what have I got
27:57
to do to manage this problem? And once you get to the point of
28:00
right, well, I'm, I, I could learn more and more about it,
28:03
but, but I know enough to know that actually the thing I need
28:06
to do is this. And then, and then put your
28:08
energy in, in the thing that you can do to, to kind of work, work
28:13
your way through, you know, those challenges.
28:18
I, I think it's definitely AI is, I mean, such a powerful
28:21
tool. We, we, you know, you started to
28:23
use it a lot can make life. You know, it can help to, to
28:28
process some certain things we have to do.
28:32
But like any tool like that, it's that dose of judgement you
28:36
need with it to make sure that you're asking the right
28:39
questions and the answers you get back applying the judgement
28:43
to say, is this really what what, what the right thing is
28:46
here? Lastly, we're recording this in
28:50
January. It's traditionally the time we
28:53
hear when people think about New Year's resolutions obviously and
28:56
self improvement. The only if you've got any focus
29:00
for self improvement this year. And if not, are there any kind
29:05
of personal productivity hacks, tips that you've picked up that
29:10
you'd pass on? Yeah, personally, I know one of
29:16
my tendencies is to, I mean, I like to really empower teams.
29:20
I like to really empower people to, to leave what they're doing.
29:23
I know I've got, because I'm interested in the stuff we're
29:26
doing. I've got a personal tendency to
29:28
get in the detail. And so I, so I've always got to
29:31
coach myself to get in the detail when it helps, but not
29:35
too much that I'm disempowering people and I've got to
29:38
constantly. Can I coach myself on that?
29:42
I guess the big thing for me is if there's a challenge, if
29:44
there's a problem that's come along today, deal with it today.
29:49
We're very, we can end up pushing problems, we'll do that
29:52
on tomorrow. And they just get bigger and
29:53
bigger. You know, there's nothing better
29:55
than problems come up, let's get hold of it and deal with it
29:58
today. And certainly on there was
30:00
things on, on, on, you know, back on on Crosshall and on
30:04
Tideway where just because we got hold of a challenge and we
30:08
got the right people around the table and we got hard of a
30:10
challenge quickly and early, we stopped that becoming much, much
30:14
bigger. Yeah, I I agree with you 100% on
30:18
that. That's great.
30:18
Was there anything else you wanted to add?
30:21
Big, big part of this is keeping that focus on the end goal.
30:24
What is it we're all trying to achieve?
30:26
Making sure that that everyone understands that end goal and
30:31
they understand the activity that they're doing, the part of
30:34
the, the, the, the, the project they're working on, how what
30:38
they're doing links here with everybody else and how that all
30:40
feeds them with that end goal. Yeah, as well as the skills of
30:44
being a project manager, helping the whole team to see how they
30:48
all come together to deliver what you're trying to deliver.
30:50
Is is is a massive part of it. Finally, let's get some top tips
30:55
from Anne Marie Purcell. She says a great project manager
30:58
is someone who has a passion for hitting deadlines, delivering
31:02
outcomes, having grit, and being skilled at whack A mole.
31:05
You also need to be a really good people person to be able to
31:08
influence and motivate your team to come along with you and be
31:11
good at conflict management that comes to a change.
31:14
Treat your team like a family, she says.
31:18
I think a process, a person who likes process, is great, but
31:22
actually what makes a really good project manager is someone
31:25
who has a passion for hitting deadlines and delivering
31:31
outcomes. And so, yeah, I mean, for me,
31:33
there's people who do the job, who follow the right ways of
31:37
working and do the right things. But the difference is somebody
31:41
you actually, you know, that deadline and that outcome
31:45
really, really matters. That that for me is what makes a
31:50
really great project manager. And in terms of skills, I think
31:53
it's and personality, I think it's someone who who has grit
31:59
and determination, someone who doesn't take no for an answer
32:04
and someone who comes up with solutions to problems
32:08
consistently. So for me, I use the terminology
32:13
whack a moles constantly whacking A mole and getting rid
32:15
of a problem in order to hit your deadline.
32:18
And that steely I'd focus on it is really is really what makes a
32:22
great project manager. Is that are they one of those
32:25
skills or qualities that you can learn to get better at, or is it
32:29
something very much just what you have?
32:32
I think it's a mixture of both. I think some people can learn
32:36
kind of confidence and grit and solutionize and I think they're
32:39
the things that people can probably get.
32:42
I think however, that kind of in your belly gut about kind of the
32:46
deadline matters is something that does come only for certain
32:51
people. I think if you get stressed
32:54
about a deadline rather than kind of running at it and, and
32:57
and pushing through it, I think it's probably not the right role
33:01
for you. I've met people who think they
33:04
want to be project managers but find stress and deadlines very
33:08
challenging. And for me, they're probably in
33:10
the wrong job. I think you have to be someone
33:12
who takes it on as a challenger deadline and kind of kind of
33:15
loves the intensity in the adrenaline from it.
33:19
And that's probably something that you can't learn.
33:21
I think that's probably part of your personality, but definitely
33:25
you can learn great and solutionize.
33:27
And I think I think they're the things that you can learn, but
33:29
probably that kind of inu gut ability to deal and want to deal
33:33
with challenge and stress and adrenaline for a deadline is
33:37
probably sought in your personality.
33:41
What about when it comes to managing people and motivating
33:43
people and getting a project team aligned?
33:45
Is there anything that you've learned over the years that
33:47
makes for a great project manager?
33:49
What do they get right? I think people who are really
33:53
good people, people, I think that matters.
33:56
I mean, if you, if you think about what a project manager
33:59
does, they, they don't do some of the work themselves, they
34:02
rely on other people to do it. So you need to be able to
34:05
influence and encourage people to matter about this project as
34:09
much as you do, to care about the outcome and the deadline as
34:14
much as you do and influence and to go that bit further or or do
34:20
that work or solve a problem with you.
34:22
So I definitely think someone who is a people person, I think
34:25
is helpful, but in turn not too soft.
34:28
I think, you know, you have to be pretty robust because often
34:32
you are faced with difficult conversations.
34:35
There's a lot of conflict management in the role in terms
34:39
of either solving conflicts between groups of individuals
34:42
or, you know, directly. There can be quite a bit of
34:46
conflicts. Change generally can make people
34:49
scared and you know, for all emotional reasons and, and you
34:53
know, haven't being able to deal with that and and that often
34:57
directed at you and being able to deal with it without taking
35:00
it personally and having a level of empathy about where people
35:03
are coming from and how to resolve them conflicts with a
35:06
bit of empathy and not taking it personally.
35:09
I think is is quite important really.
35:12
OK, thank you. And and finally, just to ask you
35:14
what makes a great, a kind of competent project manager, a
35:19
great project manager, what makes someone stand out at it?
35:23
Project management can often be peaks and troughs.
35:25
I mean, that's big changes. I did went, but a lot of them
35:28
are peaks and troughs and and people who understand that and
35:30
kind of take the peaks with the peaks will be the people who are
35:33
successful in project management for me, people who see as a as a
35:37
process that they follow. And if the deadline is hit, the
35:41
deadlines hit. If it's not and it slips for me,
35:44
are the people who will, who will I'm sure will do fine, but
35:48
won't necessarily blow them, blow people away or go up that
35:52
chain in a career. They'll be the people who kind
35:55
of stay at a project management level.
35:58
Yeah, for for me, I can kind of spot people who are are just
36:02
there to do the project management role and those people
36:05
who have got got the ability to go much further with it really.
36:10
Sounds great, like a superpower you can get there.
36:14
Attracts all the best people for your teams because you can spot
36:16
them. Well, it is helpful.
36:20
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
36:23
For me, I think project managers who who treat the teams as
36:28
families is another one for me doing big change in
36:32
transformation. You spend a lot of time together
36:35
and having each other's back and knowing when other people need
36:38
support in your team and understanding where people's
36:42
skills and strengths are and playing that tune, particularly
36:45
as a leader, playing that between team.
36:46
Not all project managers are the same.
36:48
They all have different strengths and weaknesses and
36:50
knowing how to play together as a team and also, you know,
36:53
being, you know, it doesn't mean you always have to get on.
36:56
It's like any family, but when you become tight as a team, you
37:01
know they're the people who will get you through big change and
37:04
transformation and and I think being able to work really
37:07
effectively as a team player is undoubtedly a massive priority
37:13
for me as a project manager. I hope you've learned a lot from
37:18
what it means for a great project manager.
37:19
So thanks again to Tamson, Paul, Andy and Anne Marie for joining
37:23
us and to you for listening to the APM podcast.
37:26
So don't forget to look out for more episodes, auto rating,
37:29
reviews, wherever you get your podcasts.
37:31
Welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and
37:34
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Spotify users, please do also leave us your comments.
37:43
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
37:47
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
37:50
visit apm.org.uk.