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Nursing home planning for procrastinators · The Legal Exchange

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: This is the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky from the
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: law firm of Cushing and Dolan and Susan Powers of
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the Armstrong Advisory Group. Each week, Todd and Susan will
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  Speaker 1: discuss many topics, including estate planning, how to avoid probate,
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  Speaker 1: and protecting your money from a nursing home. If you
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  Speaker 1: need assistance in any of these areas, or have a
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: question about another issue that may affect your future, call
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  Speaker 1: eight six six eight four eight five six ninety nine
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  Speaker 1: to make an appointment. That's eight sixty six eight four
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  Speaker 1: eight five six ninety nine. Operators are standing by. Now
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  Speaker 1: Here are your hosts, Tod Lutsky and Susan Powers.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome into Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm Susan Powers,
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  Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and I'm
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: joined by Todd Lutsky, a partner with the law firm
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: of Cushing and Dolan with a master's in taxation. Welcome Todd.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: How are you today?
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: I am never better? And you I'm great?
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Thank you? What do you have for us?
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: This week? The fastest month ever. I can't believe it's over.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: It's crazy, this really was I hope this is an
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: indication of how the year is going to go. But yes,
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  Speaker 3: a couple of cases. I got a Mississippi Appellet court
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  Speaker 3: case basically overcoming the objection of a revoked will. Did
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  Speaker 3: somebody revoke it so they couldn't find the will, but
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  Speaker 3: they found a copy, and then you had to prove
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  Speaker 3: whether or not the person wanted to revoke that will
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  Speaker 3: or can you use the copy? And you're going to
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: find lots of reasons and hear why we need to
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  Speaker 3: do planning. But that'll be an interesting case you'll see.
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  Speaker 3: Then we head down to Tennessee for an appellate court
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  Speaker 3: decision there where there was a deed transferred via power
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  Speaker 3: of attorney, and then the question arises, was it a
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  Speaker 3: valid transfer, was it undue influence? Did the person have capacity?
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  Speaker 3: All of these questions come up, especially when dealing with
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  Speaker 3: the situation of a fourth marriage. So yeah, that pretty
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  Speaker 3: much says it all for fourth marriage. Wo And of
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  Speaker 3: course the wife didn't get the property, but one of
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  Speaker 3: the daughters did and that and create a lot of
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  Speaker 3: happy feelings. So we're going to talk about how to
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: plan for houses, especially in real estate, because that's important.
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  Speaker 3: But folks, lots of times, and you'll see even in
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  Speaker 3: these cases, the planning that was done wasn't maybe well
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  Speaker 3: thought out, and wasn't done at all sometimes. So that's
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  Speaker 3: what this guide is about. It's the end of the month.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: It's long term care planning for the procrastinator. It's the
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  Speaker 3: last chance to get it. It's for folks that are
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  Speaker 3: faced with nursing home care who have either a done
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  Speaker 3: their planning but still have assets outside the trust subject
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  Speaker 3: to being taken by the nursing home. Or a lot
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  Speaker 3: of people with the term procrastination haven't done anything and
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  Speaker 3: are faced with entering a nursing home and now have
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  Speaker 3: all their assets exposed. What can you do? Last minute?
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  Speaker 3: There are things to do. Don't write the check. Learn
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: about how houses and rentals and life insurance, how different
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  Speaker 3: assets have different treatment. Get the guide eight six six
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  Speaker 3: eight four eight five six ninety nine or Legal Exchange
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  Speaker 3: show dot com again eight six six eight for eight
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  Speaker 3: five six ninety nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com.
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  Speaker 3: That said, let's head over to Mississippi appellic court case.
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  Speaker 3: So Leonard Leonard had been friends. Now this is important,
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  Speaker 3: friends with Ernest Jackson's Est Jackson and their entire family
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  Speaker 3: friends fifty years, but was especially close with their daughter Nina. Again,
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  Speaker 3: there's no relation here. This is friends, yep. Nina would
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  Speaker 3: visit him, would check in on him as he got older,
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  Speaker 3: and even when Nina moved to Houston, she remained close
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  Speaker 3: with him. She would come back, take him to VA appointments,
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  Speaker 3: run errands for him. She was like, right there. So
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  Speaker 3: Leonard did a will, and of course he left all
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  Speaker 3: his probate assets to Nina. Of course, I don't love
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  Speaker 3: the fact that he calls a probate asset, but a
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  Speaker 3: will only deals with probate assets. Nina was completely unaware
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  Speaker 3: of this will. She didn't even know about it, so
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  Speaker 3: she came back from Houston to help with the funeral.
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  Speaker 3: Then she learned about it, and even then she did
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  Speaker 3: a diligent search to try to find any heirs at law.
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  Speaker 3: She couldn't find any, She couldn't contact any. She also
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  Speaker 3: couldn't find the original will. Turns out this guy was
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  Speaker 3: a hoarder, but he had the copy. She had the
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  Speaker 3: copy of the will, so she files the will on
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  Speaker 3: April of twenty twenty two, and at that point Robin.
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  Speaker 3: A few months later. This person Robin, who is a niece.
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  Speaker 3: There's several other nieces and nephews apparently that are now
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  Speaker 3: coming out of the woodwork. They object to the will,
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  Speaker 3: and they argue that Nina had undue influence over Leonard
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  Speaker 3: and that we should throw out the original will. Nina's
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  Speaker 3: searched more still couldn't find the will. However, the court
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  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three ordered that the will was valid
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  Speaker 3: and that Nina had overcome the presumption that Leonard wanted
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  Speaker 3: to revoke it. There's a presumption of revocation when you
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  Speaker 3: can't find the original will. Well, as you might imagine,
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  Speaker 3: the niece wasn't happy about that. So the niece appealed.
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  Speaker 3: Appellate court agreed with the lower court, saying that Leonard
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  Speaker 3: created a will. Clearly he did. There was no evidence
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  Speaker 3: anywhere that he wanted to destroy the will. There was
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  Speaker 3: a dillis in search done for the will, they could
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  Speaker 3: not find it, and there was absolutely no evidence of
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  Speaker 3: undue influence at all by Nina. In fact, Nina said
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  Speaker 3: that the will was executed and she didn't even know it, remember,
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  Speaker 3: until she got back from Houston, so she wasn't even
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  Speaker 3: for the will. So clearly no undoe influence well, nieces
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  Speaker 3: and nephews are out.
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's nothing that says you have to leave it
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  Speaker 2: to blood relatives. She's the daughter he never had.
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  Speaker 3: I totally agree with you here, Susan, and I think
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  Speaker 3: this is the right decision. I'm not saying that their
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  Speaker 3: nieces and nephews are out and I'm mad about it.
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  Speaker 3: I think I think it's the right call. But what
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  Speaker 3: can we learn from something like this? Right? When you
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  Speaker 3: want to take care of somebody, a will is a
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  Speaker 3: wont right. This is really what we talk about. Right.
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  Speaker 3: It doesn't avoid probate, they're stuck in the probate court.
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  Speaker 3: It doesn't help reduce the state taxes if that's one
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  Speaker 3: of your objectives. It doesn't help protect the assets from
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  Speaker 3: a nursing home. You know, generally, these are all important
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  Speaker 3: objectives that a client wants to accomplish, and you get
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  Speaker 3: none of that with a will. Of course, that said,
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  Speaker 3: if you're going to do nothing else, at least do
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  Speaker 3: the will to have that right, because the will does
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  Speaker 3: direct where your assets go, which we found out was
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  Speaker 3: important here for Leonard. He wanted to make sure these
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  Speaker 3: assets went there. Why let's play out the string from
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  Speaker 3: the niece's nephew standpoint, if they were successful in proving
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  Speaker 3: that this will didn't exist, then he would have died
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  Speaker 3: what they call intestine without a will. If you die
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  Speaker 3: without a will, then they start looking at the statue.
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  Speaker 2: And the courts are deciding.
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  Speaker 3: Right, they would look and say, did Leonard have a spouse,
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  Speaker 3: did Leonard have kids? Did Leonard leave parents? Did Leonard
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  Speaker 3: have siblings? Did Leonard have nieces and nephews? See, we
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  Speaker 3: would have got down the line and the nieces and
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  Speaker 3: nephews would have ultimately shown up as potential heirs. Guess
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  Speaker 3: who never would have shown up? Nina is just a friend.
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  Speaker 2: The one that he wanted his stuff to go to.
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  Speaker 3: Right, so Nina would have clearly been out because if
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  Speaker 3: there was no will, and I'm sure the nieces and
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  Speaker 3: nephews knew this, that that would have been the problem, right,
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  Speaker 3: that would have been the way that these nieces and
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  Speaker 3: nephews could have won. Now that said, also remember folks
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  Speaker 3: that again I think he should have done more planning
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  Speaker 3: here and maybe try to protect these assets actually for
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  Speaker 3: Nina if he wanted her to get them, and that's
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  Speaker 3: where the trust would have come in. But remember, if
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  Speaker 3: if you're like Leonard, and maybe you don't like to
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  Speaker 3: do planning, but you happen to have this unique situation
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  Speaker 3: where you have this one person that you want to
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  Speaker 3: take care of. Well, you certainly could just set up
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  Speaker 3: designated beneficiaries on the accounts or joint if you care
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  Speaker 3: to take that risk. But you could put you know,
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  Speaker 3: Nina's name on the accounts and then when he died
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  Speaker 3: it would have been an operation of law avoiding probate
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  Speaker 3: right to Nina.
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  Speaker 2: And probates the only the are the only types of
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  Speaker 2: assets that would have ultimately gone to the nieces and
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  Speaker 2: nephews through the will, will right.
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  Speaker 3: Or either way. If you had the will and it
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  Speaker 3: was you're right. If you didn't have the will, only
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  Speaker 3: the probate assets, you're exactly right. Only the probate assets
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  Speaker 3: would have found their way. So in this case, this
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  Speaker 3: isn't even a probate matter anymore. This is an operation
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  Speaker 3: of law. The surviving joint owner just takes the asset
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  Speaker 3: or the designated beneficiary just gets it. And you know
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  Speaker 3: how it is. Even if the nieces and nephews came
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  Speaker 3: to the financial institution and said, who's the beneficiary, if
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  Speaker 3: they're not, you can't tell.
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  Speaker 2: Them you're not even going to have a conversation with them.
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  Speaker 3: You can't even tell them, you say no. And of
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  Speaker 3: course when you learn that you can't be told or
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  Speaker 3: have a conversation, of course you know by default that
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  Speaker 3: you're not listed. But that's how it works. So folks,
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  Speaker 3: be careful though with joint ownership. If you're going to
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  Speaker 3: do that, you could accidentally disinherit a child. So if
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  Speaker 3: you've got multiple children, I'm not suggesting joint ownership is
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  Speaker 3: the way to go, but you know, you leave it
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  Speaker 3: to one kid, then the other kids are out, So
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  Speaker 3: just think about that, folks. That's what plan four. That's
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  Speaker 3: why it's important. But people are faced with entering a
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: nursing home last minute and sometimes don't know what to do.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: Long term care planning for the procrastinators is the guide.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: It's the end of the month. Learn what you can
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: do before you write a check to the nursing home.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: Get the guide eight sixty six eight four eight five
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: six nine to nine or Legal Exchange show dot com.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner with the
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Power as
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group. We've got
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: much more to come when we return to the Legal
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  Speaker 2: Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
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  Speaker 1: The average monthly cost for a private room in New
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  Speaker 1: Eight sixty six eight four eight five six ninety nine.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Susan Powers of financial advisor the Armstrong Advisory Group, and
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I'm joined by Todd Lutsky, a partner with the law
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: firm of Cushing and Dolan with a master's in taxation.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Where we headed now, Todd, We're.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Gonna head down to Tennessee. We've got an appellate court
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  Speaker 3: case there dealing with a power of attorney, a deed
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  Speaker 3: and undue influence. It's a lot of topics, so the
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: facts of this case are Cliff executes a power of attorney,
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: naming his daughter Kim as the agent. H. That seems fine.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: In twenty twenty one, Cliff marries for the fourth time,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Joan Okay. Cliff then executes a deed transferring title to
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: the home. Now I can only imagine if this is
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: the home they both live in, but we have to
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: assume for now that is the case, to his daughter
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Kim for one dollar. All right, Well, that's a gift, folks.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: It's not a sale, right, It's just a gift to
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: the daughter.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Now.
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  Speaker 3: Of course, the timing on when that deed was prepared
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: is not but it's sometime after twenty twenty one and
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: before he dies in December of twenty twenty three. Don't
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  Speaker 3: know if there's any undue influence or not or capacity issues,
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: but let's see. So Cliff dies and Kim then records
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: the deed four days later.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Hm.
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  Speaker 3: That makes sense. I guess since it's recorded four days later,
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: I'm guessing that it might have been done close in
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: time to death because you didn't get around to recording it.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: Or if you did and it was done years ago,
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: why didn't you record it? Right? These are all things
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: that I think about when I read this all right. Well,
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: in December twenty eighth, twenty twenty three, less than a
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: month later, Joan files to have the deed set aside
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: due to lack of capacity by Cliff and undue influence
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: by Kim. Okay, so maybe it was close in time
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: to his death and maybe he didn't have capacity. I
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: don't know those issues. Kim of course says no, no, no,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: there was no capacity problems at all. But she did
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: admit during the trial that that she did handle all
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: of his finances before he died. Of course, I'm wondering
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: where the heck Joan is.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: She's wife number four, she's out. Could be if I
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: was heading on to husband number four, I would transfer
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: my house to my kids too, because I'd want them
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: to get him, not here to I'm not this Susan
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: before number five.
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  Speaker 3: I get it. So that's a fact, right, the fact.
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  Speaker 3: So the trial court did end up setting aside the deed,
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  Speaker 3: stating that you know, she was the attorney in fact Kim,
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  Speaker 3: and the deed did in fact benefit her, and that
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  Speaker 3: is a presumption of undu influence. And I kind of
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  Speaker 3: get that well. Of course Kim didn't like that, so
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: Kim appealed, and the appellate court affirmed the trial court ruling,
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  Speaker 3: saying that Kim and Cliff did have a confidential relationship
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  Speaker 3: father daughter and named her as the agent power of attorney,
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: and the he did benefit her. Plus there was no
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: consideration given to Cliff, so it was a gift. And
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: Kim actually prepared the deed and probably handed it to
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: him and he signed it. So she didn't sign it
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  Speaker 3: as power of attorney, which would have been even worse. Right,
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: he actually did sign it, but she prepared it and
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  Speaker 3: Cliff did not repeat, did not get independent advice from
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: an attorney prior to transferring the property.
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  Speaker 2: And if it's all above board, have Joan and the broom, yeah,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: you know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And so there is a presumption of undue influence
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  Speaker 3: here that Kim did not rebut did not rebut effectively.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: So you know, Kim, I think is out here. But folks,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: this is really an example another example of bad planning. Right,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm going to explain what kind of planning
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: clearly Cliff should have done here to protect everybody. But
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: before I do, I want to let remind you of
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: the folks who might be faced with again either bad
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: planning meaning no planning. So long term care planning for
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: the procrastinators. You haven't done any planning, or you've done
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: some planning, but you're faced with the nursing home and
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: there's still assets that are at risk. Get this guy,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: don't write to check to the nursing home. It's the
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: last chance to get it. We're at the end of
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: the month. Learn how rental properties and homes and vacation
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: homes and life insurance and all these different assets are
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: treated differently whether you're married or single, and how you
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: can convert them to be non countable. Last Minute eight
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: six six eight four eight five six ninety nine or
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: Legal Exchange Show dot com Again, Last Time, Long Term
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: care Planning for the Procrastinators eight sixty six eight four
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: eight five six nine nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: So fourth marriage, fourth marriage, no a state plan rely
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: to speak of. Right, there's no trust, no trust, not
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: even a will.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: He's had power of attorney prepared a deed.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm like, first of all, you're right. When
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: you got multiple marriages, folks, you really got to think
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: what's going to be in this case? He's double it.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: Oh boy? So what do you want just to remember
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: the definition of a power of attorney. I don't want
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: to vilify the power of attorney here, right, it's a
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: good instrument. Generally it allows you to appoint somebody to
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: help with financial issues when when you cannot. It does
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: create a fiduciary position. So the agent does have fiduciary
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: duties that they owe to the creator and to the beneficiaries,
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: to other people. So so there's some checks and bounds,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: and it's it's it's a good document to have. Obviously,
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: be careful who you appoint, but it's good to have.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: Of course. My query, I'm sure everybody's query is why
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: after getting married did Cliff not do a new estate
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: plan right? And update? Well, why wasn't? And again you
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: made a good point, Susan, But you know, maybe the
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: wife should have been power of attorney with Kim as
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: an alternate. I don't know. You're right. Maybe we don't
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: trust her, that could be a reason. But in any event,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: an overall estate plan should have been done right. So
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: let's talk about it. Right. At a bare minimum, you
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: want to make sure that you put together some kind
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: of a trust or even a will would not be enough. Here,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: you need to put the house in this case that
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: they're dealing with or any money into a potentially an
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: irrevocable trust. So here, if I put it into the
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: irrevocable trust, it'll be protected for the nursing home, but
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: also to take care of Joan. Right, that's your spouse.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: I'd hate to think that he gave way to the
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: daughter the house that they both were living in.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Right, So she Kim could have very easily if this
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: went through, evicted her. Now she has nowhere to live.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think these are problems that that I
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: would think about. So you know, you'd want to at
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: least try to put the house into a trust for
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: for those reasons. Probably depending on the size of the estate,
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: it would be irrevocable so that it's not only avoiding probate,
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: but that it remains available for the spouse. And again
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: put language in there so that the spouse can't sell it,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: but the spouse can live there, pay the bills, maybe
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: even name Kim as a co trustee with the spouse,
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: so there's some checks and balances there in that way,
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: not only is there a place for the spouse to live,
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: and is it protected for the spouse, but ultimately it's
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: protected for his side of the family. I know there's
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: four marriages, but he's going to have to pick at
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: least who he wants that to be protected for, and
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: I suspect Kim would have been on that list. So
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: make sure you do that. Whenever you have an initial
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: plan done that you do some of this. Now the
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: advice from the attorney part, remember that was in the decision.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: I think that's pretty important too. When you don't get advice,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: bad things happen. If they had come to me and said,
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: you know, we're thinking I'm going to give my house
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: to my daughter, I would have been like, you need
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: another lawyer because I'm not doing that right. And that's
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: how strongly I feel about it. I would have said, look,
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: there's way better advice that can be given to you
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: than just giving it away. If you give it away,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: you can't live there anymore. And if this is where
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: you and your spouse live, she might not be living
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: there anymore. Your daughter can throw you out while you're alive,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: never mind, when you die, you don't have the ability
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: as life goes on. No one knew he was going
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: to die that quickly, right, you could be planning for
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: your whole life. You might want to make.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: A move downsized, you whatever.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Sell buy another house, move out of state, move to
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: where it's warm. I get it, and you can't without
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: her permission. All the money, even if you didn't keep
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: a life estate, all the money would go to her.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: So and even from her standpoint, right, if this is
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: a house that shell tlimately wants, it's subject to her
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: creditors sooner than it needs to be, which is not
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: good for either party. Right, And there's a carryover basis right,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: So now you're actually giving a capital gains tax liability
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: to Kim, which is not good for her either. So
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: folks don't do things like this. Get your plan in order,
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: especially if you remarry. But for everybody else that might
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: be faced with long term care planning and haven't done
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: any planning. Last chance, end of the month. Get the
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: guide how to Protect your assets last Minute from the
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: Nursing Home eight six ' six eight four eight five
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: six nine to nine or Legal Exchange show dot Com.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner with the
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Powers, a
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and Todd will
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: be answering your listener questions when we return to the
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: The average monthly cost for a private room in New
• 23:55
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  Speaker 1: Exchange Show dot com. The proceeding was paid for in
• 24:43
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  Speaker 1: advisory services. You're listening to the Legal Exchange and it's
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: time for Ask Todd, the segment where Todd will answer
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: your questions about anything and everything that's included in the
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: estate planning process. Once again, here's Todd Lutsky and Susan Powers.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Welcome back, Todd. We have a few questions from listeners
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: for you. First question comes from Joe in Malden, mass
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: And Joe writes, my wife passed away three years ago
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: and I have since created an irrevocable trust and put
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: my home and other monies in the trust. I have
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: a checking account in my name with around one hundred
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: thousand in it, and to add a beneficiary so that
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: my two children can avoid probate when I pass. Is
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: there a benefit of having the irrevocable trust named is
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: the beneficiary versus having my children name? They are the
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: only beneficiaries of my trust.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: So a couple of things here. First of all, kudos
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: on the planning. I mean, obviously it might have been
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: better to do it before you lost your spouse, and
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: depending on the size of the estate, it could have helped,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: you know, reduce the state taxes. But let's assume they're
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: worth less than two million dollars here in mass so
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: wasting the wife's estate tax exemption is not going to
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: be problematic. So good news on the estate planning front.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: Because one, I, you know, you get the house in there,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: you get some money in there, it's going to avoid
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: the probate. And you said it's irrevocable, so it's going
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: to you know, provide protection from the nursing home. And
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: it sounds like you know they're leaving the assets to
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: directly to the two kids. Well, I say directly. So
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: that really is going to depend on how I answer
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: this question. You know, if the trust says, when I die,
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: I leave everything equally to my two kids, pay it out,
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: take it and go versus, Oh, I'm leaving it in trust,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: protecting it from creditors and future divorces. And I have
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: all this special language in the trust. Okay, So I
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: guess we can answer it both ways. If it says
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: divide it and pay it out to my kids, if
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: living otherwise to my grandkids, and you decide to name
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: the kids as beneficiaries directly on the bank accounts that
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: are not in the trust, then that would accomplish the
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: equally to the kid's part. However, I suspect depending on
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: what the dB says, if one dies, does it go
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: to the other one or does it go I don't
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: think you can. I don't know how if they can
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: set it up where it goes down to grandkids. So
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: I'm going to err on the side of caution and say,
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: you know, if if the trust says just paid out
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: to the kids, then likely the designated beneficiary route. Naming
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: the kids is fine, fine, because there's no reason to
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: run it through the trust just to give it to
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: the kids when you could just give it to the
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: kids directly. However, if you're doing planning and you want
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: to protect assets from creditors and divorces and other things,
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: and the.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: Trust maybe from themselves.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: From themselves, and the trust is holding assets back to
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: accomplish that goal when you're gone, then probably you don't
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: want to name the kids as the beneficiary. Again, depending
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: on how much is in there. I mean, I don't
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: mind giving me all right, So if I'm going to
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: give them fifty grand each, then maybe I don't care. Yeah, right,
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: But I want to answer the question as fully as
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I can for everybody. Don't think about it. Just here.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: What if there's a lot large IRA, right, and you're
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: now single, and you've got you know, eight hundred thousand
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: dollars in an IRA, Well, maybe I don't want that
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: going directly to my kids. Equally, so maybe I want
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: to name the trust as the beneficiary because that is
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: a lot of money that I would like to protect.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: And you can do that, yeah, okay, But you're right.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: If it's going directly out to the kids, then even
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: on the large IRA, I would just name name that
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: the kids the beneficiaries. Okay, so lots to think about
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: when you're doing that, folks, But I think the planning
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: idea is very helpful. I'm glad they did it. But
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: even someone like this could end up in a nursing home,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: and so this guide long term care planning for procrastinators again,
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: end of the month, last time to get it would
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: be appropriate. It's appropriate for folks like Joe who did
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: their planning because as you saw in the guide, there's
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: assets outside of the trust right and for people who
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: haven't done their planning, the guide's very important because all
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: the assets are at risk. It will show you how
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: to convert countable assets to non countable assets last minute,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: and the different types of assets and how they work
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: for married couples versus single people. Also different. So don't
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: write to check to the nursing home. Get the guide,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: learn what you can do Last Minute eight six six
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: eight four eight five six nine to nine or legal
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: Exchange show dot com again Last Chance eight six six
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: eight four eight five six nine to nine or Legal
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: Exchange Show dot com.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Our last question comes from Joanna and Hanson mass and
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Joanna writes, my mother is in a nursing home and
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: my father recently passed away. My mother's income is going
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: to increase because of the survivor benefit on my father's pension.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Her total income will now be around four thousand per month.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Will she now lose her Medicaid eligibility?
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: So she's in a nursing home, and I guess I
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: missed that medigading. She's already on Medicaid. So when someone's
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: on Medicaid and a spouse dies, so this is when
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: they die out of order. I hate when that happens, right, right,
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: So the healthy spouse dies first, So it would be
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: interesting to see what else the healthy spouse had.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: I would say maybe a home, but doesn't say what
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: kind of planning or anything that was done after mom
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: when in the nurse.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Right, So maybe it was just a home and they
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: had the pension that they lived on. There wasn't a
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: lot of other assets, but we'll just throw it out there.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: Folks that when we're answering a question like this, you
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: you certainly would need to address other assets. And I'm
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: going to come back to that because I think I'm
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: going to have the time. But let's address the initial
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: question here, which is not an asset question but an
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: income based question. So let's say mom is on Medicaid
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: and she's receiving a two thousand dollars a month Social
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: Security check and she is still getting that, yep. And
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: then he dies and I guess she's now going to
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: get his pension, which is okay. I don't think that's
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: going to affect her social security, So she's still she
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to get his social and her social
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: right be one or the other, but this is pension,
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: so I think she gets to keep her social and
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: get his pension. So now she's collecting six thousand a month.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Is that? Remember that's an income component, folks, not an
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: asset component. So she's not going to lose governmental but
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: she's not going to lose Medicaid because she's over assets,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: because her assets haven't changed and her income went up.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: So what will happen is her patient pay amount will
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: go up, okay, and she won't lose Medicaid.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: So they'll get all the income essentially.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Well, let's assume and as a general rule, the Medicaid
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: rate today, it keeps going up. The Medicaid rate today
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: is somewhere around sixty five hundred to seven thousand a month.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: That's what the state will pay when you're on Medicaid.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: When you're in the nursing home and you're paying privately,
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: it's double. Fourteen to fifteen. Thousand is more likely what
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: you would be paying privately, So there's a benefit in
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: this case. Six thousand is still less than sixty five
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: hundred or seven thousand. So if the Medicaid rate is
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: seven and she's now paying six, the state only pays one.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: That's the math. Okay, so that's a good news for her.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: She can stay on. Just since I have a little
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: bit of time, let's just play out the string. Husband
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: died out of order. Likely they had a house. At
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: a bare minimum, what will happen to the house. The
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: house probably passes to her unless he did something after
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: Medicaid eligibility was established, which they should have done. Again,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: if they had a lawyer helping them through the Medicaid
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: application process, I'm sure that advice would have been forthcoming. Okay,
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: the house if it just passes to her because it
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: was left jointly owned, which would have been bad. She
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: now owns a house, but as long as it's less
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: than I think like a million ninety nine thousand somewhere
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: around there in value, it will be non countable but leanable,
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: so she might not lose her eligibility just because it's
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: her house. Again, we assume she checked the box that
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: I intend to return home when I entered the nursing home.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: So things to look at like that though, and if
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: there's other assets, you'll have to deal with it. Folks.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Last minute, you don't know what to do. Get the
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: guide so you don't write the check eight six six
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: eight four eight five six nine nine or Legal Exchange
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: Show dot com. It's the end of the month. Last
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: chance to get it, folks.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: If you have a question you would like to ask Tod,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: visit his website Legal Exchange Show dot com and click
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: on the ask Tod tab. Maybe I'll be able to
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: read your question on the air, and hopefully his answer
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: will stop you from becoming one of his next real
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: life stories. You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: with a law firm of Cushing at Dolan. I'm Susan Powers,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong advisory Group. We'll be
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: back with more after this quick break on the Legal
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: The average monthly cost for a private room in New
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: England could double by twenty forty So if you're not
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: prepared to handle the increased costs of nursing home care,
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: your assets may be at risk. Call Cushing and Dolan
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: today and request their new guide called Long Term Care
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Planning for Procrastinators. It'll help you understand how to protect
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: your assets and allow you to enjoy your later years.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: An unexpected nursing homestay could significantly reduce your wealth and prosperity.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Call Cushing and Dolan right now at eight six six
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: eight four eight five six nine nine and get your
• 38:08
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• 38:11
  Speaker 1: put off today what you might really need to do tomorrow.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Call eight sixty six eight four eight five six niney nine.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: That's eight six six eight four eight five six ninety nine.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Or you can request the guide online by visiting Legal
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Exchange Show dot com. That's Legal Exchange Show dot com.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for in the abuse expressed are
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan Indoor
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: i'm Strong Advisory may contact you offering legal or investment services.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Cushingan Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each other
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: and are not affiliated. The calendar is turned and the
• 38:40
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• 38:43
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• 39:02
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• 39:06
  Speaker 1: along with world class cuisine, incredible golf courses, and a
• 39:09
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• 39:12
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• 39:15
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• 39:18
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• 39:39
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• 39:50
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• 40:19
  Speaker 4: our new free guide called seven Common Financial Frauds and Scams.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: That's eight hundred three nine three four zero zero one.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group a
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or in any
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Armstrong guide a specific financial, legal or tax advice. Consult
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: your own financial, tax into state planning advisors before making
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: any investment decisions. Armstrong may contact you to offer investment
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: advisory services. Your tune to the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: If you are a loved one needs a nursing homestay,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: call Todd right now at eight sixty six eight four
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: eight five six nine nine and let him make sure
• 40:50
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• 40:53
  Speaker 1: eight five six nine nine, or visit him online at
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Legal Exchange show dot com.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Welcome back into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Susan Powers, a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: and I'm joined, of course by Todd Lutsky, a partner
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: with the law firm of Cushing and Dolan with a
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Masters in taxation. So Tod, I'm thinking about situations that
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: we've run into with our mutual clients where they may
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: have made gifts to their family, whether it's the kids
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: or grandkids, whoever it is. What happens if you've given
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: away assets and you find you need to go into
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: a nursing home within five years of that gift, because
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: when you give it away, it's not necessarily to get
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: it out of the reach of the nursing rome. We
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: just be to give the gift and then things change
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: and one of you goes into a nursing home. So
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: can we walk through what would happen in that case?
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely does happen. I mean, first of all,
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: this is why I'm not a big fan of outright gifts,
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: because I would say, well, one thing is, you could
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: cure the transfer, but you try finding the money, right,
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: and try finding the kids. You give it to the kids.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: Oh I spent that long time ago, right, that's gone
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: so and that's usually how it happens, right, So, so
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: you know it might not be readily available to get back.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: And I'll just say this as a contrast, if you
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: had put it in an irrevocable trust, you know it's there,
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: right and you can get it back. So you know,
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: there's a difference between outright giving and planning for the
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: family by putting assets into an irrevocable trust, which of
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: course I like much better.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you a question about the level of gifting,
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: So how much can you give to someone before it's
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: a problem. And the when you're applying for Medicaid, they go, whoa,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: you gave that away?
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, are we.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Talking Christmas gifts? Birthday gives thresholder, there's really the limits
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: are so small that it doesn't matter.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: But they say, I think when you're applying for medicaid,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: they might look at five years worth of statements and
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: then they'll say, Okay, we're not going to look at
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: every gift, but if it's less than say a grand okay,
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: and and it correlates with a birthday, of a religious event,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: a graduation, they'll probably let it go. Okay, but you know,
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: we can't give away nine hundred dollars every Tuesday, right, Yeah,
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: that's not gonna work. Okay, So they'll see they'll see
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: through that. So it's it's a small threshold.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: So let's say it's a more substantial gift. You know,
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know, is it is it a half a
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: million that you're Yeah, let's say if someone gives away
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: half a million, and that would be whether it's cash
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: or it's you know, could be a property at that level, right.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: Could be let's stick with cash. Okay, it's a little
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: easier to deal with. This is a married couple. Sure,
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: So if it's a married couple and you gave away
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: five hundred thousand dollars and let's say you know what
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: that does. That creates a what we call a five
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: year waiting period. So that's what we call the look
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: back period. That five year number doesn't matter as to
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: the amount you give away, And the other thing that's
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: good about it is it starts to run the moment
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: you make the gift, whereas something known as a penalty period,
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: which really won't come into play here is you give
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: away five hundred thousand you divided by it's approximately thirteen
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: thousand a month, which is the divisor these days, and
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: it gives you the number of months that you're penalized,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: which could be less than sixty months. Yeah. But the
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: problem with the penalty period is it doesn't begin to
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: run until you actually apply for medicaid and get denied
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: only for that gift. So it's a little more difficult
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: to get that penalty period running. So if we gave
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: away five hundred thousand dollars and let's say we did
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: it a year ago. Well, we know we have now
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: not sixty months five years, we have four years. But
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: you could calculate the penalty period. The penalty period might
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: be more than four years, but it won't begin to
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: run until then, so it doesn't help. So in this case,
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: in any event, I'm not going to wait four years.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: I'm going to counsel the client to say, look, you
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: got to get this money back. So if you can
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: get the money back and now it's an excess resource,
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: I'll explain to you how we deal with that excess
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: resource and get the healthy spouse or the six spouse
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: excuse me, eligible for medicaid. But folks, these are the
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: kinds of last minute things you need to think about.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: Get the guide. It's the end of the month. Learn
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: how to deal with this thing called excess resources, which
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: is money. Learn how to deal with a home, a
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: rental property, a vacation property, life insurance right. They're treated
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: differently for married and single people, and they also will
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: be converted differently for accountability purposes, So you can learn
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: how to do that. Convert from countable to non countable
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: assets eight six six eight four eight five six nine
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: nine or legal exchange show dot com last chance to
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: get the guide eight six six eight four eight five
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: six nine nine or legal Exchange show dot com. So
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: excess resources. So in this case, if we gave away
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: five hundred thousand dollars and we're married and we need
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: that back because we're not going to spend four years
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: at fifteen thousand a month to get past the waiting point,
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: it doesn't make sense. So back would come the money.
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: Supposedly you could get.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: It fingers crossed.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you get the money back from the people you've
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: given it to. And now I have too much money
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: you're allowed to keep. Oh, it's approximately one hundred and
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: fifty thousand as a as a healthy spouse, so the
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: community spouse. If you if the five hundred was the
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: only money, right, you'd have five hundred minus the one
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: fifty leaves three fifty the six spouse can keep two,
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: you know, forget that. Yeah, so you know too forty eight? Right?
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: What do I do with the I'm sorry three forty eight?
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: What do I do with the three hundred and forty
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: eight thousand dollars of excess money or whatever that number is?
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: Over those financial thresholds that I just described, you're probably
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: going to buy annuity for the healthy spouse, provided the
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: healthy spouse isn't too old. Yeah, okay, but when I
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: say too old, I mean like ninety one okay, So
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: we're probably going to just go ahead and buy an
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: annuity for the healthy spouse. What you do is and
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: there are rules also in the guide how to deal
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: with creating the annuity validly so it satisfies the Medicaid rules,
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: which will in essence allow you to convert that money
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: from an asset to an income stream, and then the
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: healthy spouse will receive a monthly check from this annuity,
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: which is usually an insurance company, which.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Could be a big check, right. I mean, what happens
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: if they have a lot of income.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: But the healthy spouse gets it? Right? So Susan's bringing
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: up a good point where we're talking about assets here
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: on the one hand, which we can get the assets
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: below the financial threshold limits to make the six spouse
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: eligible for Medicaid. But now the healthy spouse could have
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: a ton of income. Good news in Massachusetts is not
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: an income cap state, so the healthy spouse is allowed
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: to have as much income as can have. Doesn't impact
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: the institutionalized spouse at all. I mean, what if the
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: healthy spouse had a really big pension or something, right,
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: it doesn't it doesn't matter. So good news on that front.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: So now she's got it. And also, by the way,
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: there probably would have been a house there. The house
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: would have been non countable because as long as the
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: healthy spouse is living there, right, they don't they don't
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: take it. So that's what we do.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: So in that example Todd, where you know, we're only
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: one year down the path, so we've got four years
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: left to go. What if we're four years down the
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: path and we only have one year left to.
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: Go, Well, I mean you would hope that when you
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: did the planning for these people that that you know,
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: you never give away all your money, right, So it's
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: likely that they have money that they've kept. Maybe it's
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: in an IRA that they couldn't give away, right, So
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: they might have a few hundred thousand dollars in the IRA. Well,
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: if I've given away five hundred grand and I know
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: that's going to be protected from the nursing home for
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: both spouses in one more year, and I've got this
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: money sitting in an IRA, I might be inclined to
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: spend privately for one more year. Just to get past
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: the waiting period. So if I have to spend call
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: it one hundred grand plus so security and pension to
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: make up the difference. If I have to spend one hundred,
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: one hundred and ten thousand dollars to guarantee the protection
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: of half a million, I might think about it, because
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: again it's for both. Even though you could undo it,
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: you'd be restarting the five year waiting period for the
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: healthy spouse might not be worth it, right And in addition,
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: if it's an IRA, it's got to come out and
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: it can be tax deductible to pay a medical bill.
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: Might be helpful. Folks. These are the kinds of things
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: you're going to learn when you get the guide. It's
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: the end of the month. Learn how to protect your
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: assets last minute. Don't write the check to the nursing
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: home eight six six eight four eight five six ninety
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: nine or legal Exchange show dot com.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Todd Lutsky from the law firm of Pushing in Dolan,
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: thank you so much.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Susan. Always a pleasure.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: I'm Susan Powers, a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: We thank you for joining us and we'll be back
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: again next week on the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Average monthly cost for a private room in New England
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: could double by twenty forty. So if you're not prepared
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: to handle the increased costs of nursing home care, your
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: assets may be at risk. Call Cushing and Dolan today
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: and request their new guide called Long Term Care Planning
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: for Procrastinators. It'll help you understand how to protect your
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: assets and allow you to enjoy your later years. An
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: unexpected nursing home stay could significantly reduce your wealth and prosperity.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Call Cushing and Dolan right now at eight six six
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: eight four eight five six ninety nine and get your
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: free guide called Long Term Care Planning for Procrastinators. Don't
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: put off today what you might really need to do tomorrow.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Call eight sixty six eight four eight five six ninet nine.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: That's eight six six eight four eight five six ninety nine.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: Or you can request the guide online by visiting Legal
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Exchange Show dot com. That's Legal Exchange Show dot com.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for in the use expressed are
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan indo
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: or I'm strong Advisory may contact you offering legal investment services.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: other and are not affiliated.
• 52:00
  Speaker 6: With digital technology. Continuously evolving, hackers are coming up with
• 52:03
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• 52:08
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• 52:08
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• 52:11
  Speaker 6: in today's landscape, it's critically important that you beware of
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• 52:18
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  Speaker 6: number once again eight hundred thirtey nine three four zero
• 52:45
  Speaker 6: zero one.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or in any
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Armstrong guide a specific financial, legal or tax advice. Consult
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: your own financial tax and to state planning advisors before
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: making any investment decisions. Armstrong make contact you to offer
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: investment advisory services. The calendar is turned and the cold
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: is here to stay, So now's the perfect time to
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: plan that getaway to the US Virgin Islands. Act now
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: and take advantage of a special promotion to Saint Croix.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Experience a vibe like no other, and receive a two
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars per person airfare credit and a
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  Speaker 1: stay with any participating hotel before June thirtieth, twenty twenty five.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: Saint Croix is known for its incredible history and spectacular architecture,
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  Speaker 1: along with world class cuisine, incredible golf courses, and a
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: wide variety of water sports. From the moment you arrive,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: you'll fall naturally in rhythm with the heartbeat of the islands.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: There's no money to exchange, and travel from New England
• 53:39
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