Latest / Privacy Please / S6, E232 - Public Policy, Data Privacy, Tech Trends, and Cultural Insights with Dave Barmore

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S6, E232 - Public Policy, Data Privacy, Tech Trends, and Cultural Insights with Dave Barmore · Privacy Please

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: All righty then.
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Privacy, please.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Cameron Ivey here with Gabe Gumbs, as always, and we got a little special guest with us.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: But before we get to our special guest, gabe, how you doing, man?
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: You doing good, good.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: I am well, I'm well, welcome to day two of the new administration, is it?
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I think, technically, yesterday was day one, right, today is day two.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm here, you're here, we're all here.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: So far, so good, still standing.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: So, far no complaints, yeah, yeah, I'm okay here so far.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Well, dave Barmore from Runway Strategies.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: He's a regulatory expert co-founder over there.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Dave, thank you so much for joining us today, man.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: We really appreciate it.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me on guys.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to it Absolutely.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, look, let's start where we always do.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Dave, tell us about yourself.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Thanks, gabe, excited to be on and talk through a little bit about what I do.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: It's a question.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: For the last five years I've been running my own consultancy, so it's a question I get a lot.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: What is it that you do with runway strategies?
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: So my background is working with companies, helping them navigate, whether it's regulatory issues, public policy.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: So I look back at my career and I've really been at the nexus of how businesses in the private sector interact with the government, and I'll go way back to.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: So I'm coming to you from DC very jam-packed and momentous day yesterday with all the inaugural activities and the regime change with the new Republican administration coming in.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: I've been in DC for 15 years Think back to the Obama years and so I've really I've been able to see multiple transitions with the presidents here in DC, and I go back to when I first came to DC in 2010,.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: I started off on Capitol Hill, so that's where I really got my exposure to how this big institution that is Congress functions.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: I worked for a member on the House side and that's really where I cut my teeth on understanding how do bills get passed?
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: We all think of that Schoolhouse Rock cartoon.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know if the kids at the Gen Z know about Schoolhouse Rock, but I always look back to that how a bill becomes a law, right, yeah?
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: So anyway, that's where I cut my teeth on my policy work and from there I went to a lobbying firm so I got to see how the other side operates in terms of how does the private sector influence what goes on in the halls of Congress.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: Fast forward to current day.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: I help and advise companies on how should they get involved, should they just track what's going on?
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: Should they actively lobby?
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: So yeah, that's what I do, and regulatory expert it's a very concise and neat way to frame it, but in practice it's a lot of things.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: It's lobbyist, it's policy.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: I didn't go to law school but I do a lot of kind of legal analysis, so I know enough to be dirty there.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: But yeah, that's kind of at a high level what I do and what I've been doing with my favorite runway.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: So before we this is kind of like going sideways, but did either of you see Dave Chappelle's SNL monologue?
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: I missed it.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: I didn't.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: No, I meant to catch the highlights.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: Highlights I usually, uh, I don't stay up late enough, uh, in front of the tv on saturday night, so I had to watch the recaps on sunday that's okay, you got youtube.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: I advise anyone listening.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: If you haven't seen it in youtube, go watch it.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: It's gonna make you laugh, it's gonna make you think and it's gonna make you emotional, because he's just that good it's worth a watch.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: It's like 17 minutes long.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: And you just forget that it's even snl.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I don't even watch snl, I only went to youtube to watch him because it's like his own little special in itself.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: It's unbelievable what he said.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: You say 17 minute monologue?
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like 17.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Wow, it's a lot of monologue, that's yeah it's not normal he's also the only one that can smoke cigarettes on stage wherever he wants, and he does it.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: On that, he writes that into his contracts.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: There's something about him that's just so easy to listen to.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know what it is.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: He's just so good at storytelling.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: But I digress.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to mention that If you guys get a chance, go watch it.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: It's so worth it Because he just has a great perspective on the whole situation and everything that's been happening with.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: He hits on things like the Diddy situation, the fires in California and, obviously, the new administration.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: So it's yeah, he touches on it all.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's relevant and it's funny.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: And it's also what all three have in common.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: They're all on fire, they're all dumpster fires, ladies and gentlemen, but anyway.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: So like, why don't we dive into that, dave?
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Why don't we talk a little bit about the new administration and kind of get a I don't know an aerial view of what you expect to happen, just in terms of what you've been dealing with, I'm sure, preparing for this new administration, and what you've been looking for or paying attention to, or what some of the listeners should pay attention to, going into the new administration.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: So, as you said, gabe, day two and day one, you know, if it's any indication, I think we're just going to continue to see a ton of activity, whether it's, you know, in the form of executive orders coming from the president himself or, you know, a new Republican controlled Congress.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: They've even said, you know, said, the legislative calendar that both the House and the Senate will be operating under is going to be much more aggressive.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: The congressmen and women will have fewer recess days.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: They're expected, I think, to be in DC and really carrying out on a lot of what President Trump has been campaigning on throughout the past year or so.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: So I think, unfortunately, where we're at is we're in this political world in which now, with every new regime and administration that comes in, we see this pendulum that swings in one way.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: So I think, as we saw even yesterday, with a lot of the executive orders, it's the undoing of a lot of work that had been done under the previous Biden administration, whether that's on tech-related issues, top of mind is the Biden executive order on AI that he, former President Biden, issued during his term.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: That was one of the issues that President Trump signed basically doing away with.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: So, whether it's AI, whether it's immigration, there's just a lot of undoing of what the previous administration had been working on for the past four years, and in terms of how businesses should be approaching that, it's definitely not ideal in terms of providing industry certainty as to what is the law, just with this again pendulum that swings right and left with every administration.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: So, in terms of what to expect, I'd say, you know, continuation of what we saw yesterday just a lot of Trump proofing the policies to undo a lot of what the Democrats had passed with the last four years.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: And so I think what we should watch for is as Congress continues to move on different committee initiatives I know Cam you and I talked a lot about how Congress works is there are committees of jurisdiction.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: So if it's tech-related issues, there are a certain number of committees, both in the House and the Senate side, that have jurisdiction and basically authority over related issues.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: So I'd be watching certain committees.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: For instance, on the Senate, it's the Commerce Committee.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: Ted Cruz, senator from Texas, is now going to be overseeing all tech-related initiatives in the Senate Commerce Committee.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: So I continue to watch what Senator Cruz says and does on all things related to AI and data privacy.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: On the House side, it's the Energy and Commerce Committee which the new chair there is a Republican legislator named Brent Guthrie, from Kentucky.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: He'll be the chair of that committee.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: So just be watching for a lot of signaling and positioning on these different issues.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: I think that will indicate what's to come in terms of committee hearings.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: That's generally the path that these bills will take is they'll have a committee hearing, the committee will discuss it, it then goes before the full floor, it's passed within the chamber.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: It then has to go to the president's desk for a signature.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: So yeah, they've got two years.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: Now is the new what they call congressional period.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: So I think of it generally as you're pushing a boulder up the hill.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: You've got two years to get your bill passed to the mountaintop and then, after that two years, if you haven't made it tumbles down the hill and you got to start from scratch.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: So we're at the just start of the new congressional.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: So everyone's pushing their boulder right at the base of the mountain and they've got a two year sprint, basically until they can get their laws passed.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: And that's just the legislative activity.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: You know regulatory.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: You think of the different agencies the Federal Trade Commission, the Federal Communications Commission, the FCC.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: You've got a real activist head of the FCC with Brendan Carr who's going to be taking on, I think, a lot of the reigning in big tech initiatives that have been prioritized by the president.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: So I think you're going to see a really active group of agency heads pushing their own agendas.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: So we'll see kind of how they balance that with some of the congressional leads as well.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Anyway, I'll pause there, but hopefully that's a little bit of a preview of the interesting times that we're entering into here in DC.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Is there any one initiative in particular across that spectrum that you're really kind of rooting to see some change in?
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: Great question, gabe.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: I think Cam and I have talked a lot about data privacy.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: It's an issue that Congress has been debating now for years and years and years, but they failed to come to an agreement on what does that national framework look like for how companies and organizations can collect and utilize consumer data, can collect and utilize consumer data.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: It's unfortunately gotten really politicized in terms of how a federal law should interact with state law.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: Gabe, as you may know, cam, I know you're intimately familiar with this, but we're now up to 19 states that have passed their own comprehensive data privacy laws 18 states that have passed their own comprehensive data privacy laws.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: I think you know Gabe, to that question, it'll be interesting to see.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Is 2025 going to be the year where Congress can finally get its act together and pass a comprehensive you know national framework Similar to the EU with their you know GDPR?
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: I think the US is really missing on asserting its global leadership by not having that kind of unified national framework in place.
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: I don't know if politics are it's pretty divisive here in DC, so I don't know if they're going to be able to come to an agreement, but we'll see.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: I think something that we're likely to see an agreement on, which almost got over the finish line in 2024, is an issue of how we should think about children's online safety, social media and its impact on teenagers.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: There was a bill called the Kids Online Safety Act that was passed out of the Senate.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: Republicans in the House refused to bring it up, so it'll be interesting to see whether the new Republican leadership in both the House and the Senate can agree on some constitutional issues and different safeguards that were included in that previous bill.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: But you'll continue to see whether it's at the federal or the state level, social media and children's online safety will be paramount and top of the list in terms of priorities.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: So that's something.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: Ai, lastly.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: I'll just touch on AI quickly.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: Something AI Lastly, I'll just touch on AI quickly.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: I think you'll and it was very interesting, I think, with the inauguration yesterday.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: You see how President Trump had all of the major tech CEOs seated during the inauguration ceremony.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: You'll notice that they were seated in front of his incoming cabinet members, so I thought that was a very, very interesting signal to show you know who's really going to have influence and how these companies are regulated.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: I say that also because to date, congress has not been able to pass any kind of comprehensive AI legislation.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: President Biden had his executive order on AI, which put in some safeguards on how the technology should be used.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: That's now been rescinded.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: With President Trump, you'll see a lot of Republicans talk about not wanting to stifle innovation with the heavy hand of government, and I imagine you'll see that kind of messaging and thinking play out now that Republicans are in full control.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: So those are the three top issues, gabe, I'd say you know, data privacy, AI and social media will continue, I think, to really kind of flood the zone in terms of tech related policy, and that's a solid.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: At the federal level, man, I mean we could talk a lot.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: My bread and butter is more at the state level, and so I don't know if you want to dive into the state stuff, but that's where it's going to be the wild, wild west out in the state state side well, look, I'm not a gambling man, but if I were, I'm not betting on a federal framework.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I'm rooting like hell for one, but I'm not betting for one.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Why am I not betting for one?
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, we haven't seen one in other areas of our digital protectives lives, if you would right, like there's, we've got a smattering of stuff across NIST and you name it a ton of different frameworks.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: I don't need to sit here and list them all.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: So I don't know that we're going to see one at the federal level, and maybe that's a good thing.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe it is necessary that different states have different laws, but some overarching governing one would be useful.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: That being said, at the state level, how do you see this playing out?
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: There are some states where there's a lot of incorporation of different entities.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at Delaware right Like right in your backyard, right, a lot of tech companies intentionally incorporate out of that state.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: And then you have states where things are really strict, like California.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Then you have some states where data privacy is literally the wild wild west.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: How do you see the interstate play coming together?
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: It's a great question.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: This year will be no exception.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: We're already seeing over 100 bills related to data privacy and AI having been introduced just in the past couple weeks, so it might be helpful just to frame.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: I talked a little bit about the federal level and how they operate under their two year calendar.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: States are somewhat different states.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Each state.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: To make things even more confusing, each state has its own unique calendar when they convene in their state capital and all the legislators come and debate the different issues in their state capitol and all the legislators come and debate the different issues.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: Almost every state has basically reconvened and begun their 2025 session either this week or previous weeks in January and, depending on the state, they have a sprint legislative session.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: So Virginia, for instance, they're only in session through the end of February, so you can imagine how busy and around the clock they are trying to get as many bills passed.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: They adjourn at the end of February and that's it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: They can't pass any more bills until 2026.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: So they're debating privacy bills.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: They've got a really interesting cookies related bill that's been flagged that we're following for some of my clients.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: So that really interesting kind of window of opportunity that each state has to discuss and debate the issues.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: That's how this works, and so I think we're now in this crazy period in which states are all coming and debating on these issues how it's playing out.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: Gabe, like I said, we've got 19 states to date, 20 if you count Florida.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: Florida is interesting.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: They passed the data privacy bill, but it only pertains to the largest tech companies, so that threshold matter some professionals don't count that bill toward the other 19 that regulate data privacy with their own bills.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: So we'll continue to see that number tick up to where we'll almost be, you know, half the states having their own comprehensive law governing data privacy.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: Gabe, I think you raise an interesting point.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: Should states what are the downsides to having states move on their own bills?
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: Clearly they're moving at a quicker pace than those here in DC.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: I think you'll hear from those in industry that there needs to be consistency, there needs to be harmonization so that businesses aren't dealing with a patchwork of different laws.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: From the consumer's perspective, you're not crossing a state line and seeing you know of such a vast difference in how your data is being treated.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: Right, why should one consumer's data be treated any differently or less so than a citizen that's in another state.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: So there's been some interesting discussion around.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: You know, should Congress pass a national law that serves as the floor so that it's consistent, you have a baseline layer of protection for all consumers across all 50 states and then allow states to build upon that floor with their own protections?
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: That's interesting.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: You know that all goes into that topic of preemption.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: You know how should this federal law interplay with state laws?
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: And so that's going to be an issue that we're going to see play out in DC.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: But you know it's going to be.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: It's going to be wild on the front.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: Social media, you've got states moving at light speed on all their different proposals and industry is responding.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: They've got, you know, whether it's through direct lobbying efforts or different industry groups.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: Industry is at the table and, like it or not, they're having a very you know, they're behave a role and they're looking to influence these laws to their liking.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: So I think you know see how that kind of plays out.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: This session in terms of you know, are we going to continue to see.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: We've seen two different types of approaches One, the California, you know very restrictive approach in terms of how companies should be able to collect and utilize consumer data, and then you see some other states, like Virginia and Colorado, that have a much more, I'd say, business-friendly approach, and so I think, with the introduction of Maryland this past year, there's a new paradigm shift, I would say, in terms of are more states going to now embrace this Maryland approach of strict kind of data minimization standards, or are they going to continue along this more kind of business-friendly, laissez-faire approach that's been adopted in states like Virginia and Colorado?
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: I'd watch that space and then, yeah, we can talk a little bit about ai as well, but I'll pause there and see if there's anything, anything else um, I want to go back because we mentioned, like social media and stuff and I don't know, is it strange to you guys I don't know if this is like making me feel like I'm old, but is it strange that tiktok is being fought for at a legislative level, like I understand that it's that it could be massive amounts of money, but it just seems crazy to me that TikTok is more important than dealing with our privacy issues.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: You know I think it's an interesting question, cam.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: You know TikTok is unique in that it's given the ByteDance component with China.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: I think it raises a lot of national security concerns, and so I think you're seeing a lot of folks from you know, within Congress, within the new administration, saying you know, put data privacy issues aside.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: This is more of a national security cybersecurity risk that we have now with just this simple fact of the China connections.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: So that's unique and not a lawyer by trade, but I know enough in this space to have seen how this plays out.
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: You're seeing a lot of issues pop up around how can government regulate content within social media that don't enter into that first amendment?
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: Uh, can they regulate algorithms?
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: Is that an area of which you know they're not regulating the content itself, but they're looking to regulate the way that companies are showing this content, and is that a more legally defensible approach?
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: So that's just a little bit of a preview into some of the issues legal otherwise that folks are dealing with.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: It is fascinating though, dave.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that you could let's just say, we go back and we're talking to our fathers or our grandfathers and we're like, hey, did you think that this would ever be a thing?
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Our president is talking about signing an order where there's going to do a trillion dollar deal and try to split the funding, so America gets half and China gets half, or whatever the case is.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: I don't think you could ever guess that in a million years he would have told my grandfather back in the 80s or 90s that you know Donald Trump would be president, know campaign finances, you know how people are contributing to, how these people get elected, um, and you want to hope that there's also a, you know, direct reflection of the priorities of the american people as well.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: So I think you're seeing obviously, the tiktok issue again is interesting.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: Let's not forget that.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: You know, president trump was the one that started this discussion around a ban and supported this notion, but I think he's seen with the recent election how much this tech platform helped influence the parts of the electorate that voted for him.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: So now you see him coming back, and so there's, you know there's like um things, wasn't it like 36 percent of his votes were from like the age demographic that uses tiktok, I think.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know that's changed his tune in terms of now he's seeing how important of a tool this is for him to reach his portion of the electorate.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: So that's why you see him trying to work out a deal here.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: That's a good point.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: But, going back to some of the state rules again, like I said, state stuff is my bread and butter.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: I think it's good and something I would tell for your listeners.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: You should 100% one going into this new second Trump administration.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: I think for a lot of us myself included, I'm having to turn off notifications on my phone.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: You know, I think I'm having to rethink how I absorb my news, as there's going to be a lot of it that you should 100%, from a professional standpoint, be watching what happens in DC and have a general awareness of what's going on and how that impacts your industry.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: I think we're going to continue to see a stalemate in terms of large initiatives come out of DC, where I think there's going to continue to be a lot of momentum and progress is at the state level and, for instance, you take a look at AI.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Last year, colorado was the first state in the country to pass a comprehensive AI bill that puts in safeguards for how companies can use AI in interacting with its customers.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: So that was monumental in that it was the first state to implement such a law, and there are parallels to be drawn with what was passed in Colorado, to the landmark EU AI Act as well.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: But I think what you'll see in 2025 is a continuation of that.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Whether it's connecticut there's a representative in connecticut that's been very out there on pushing for his own ai legislation, jay maroney.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: He will be back in 2025, uh, pushing for another ai bill.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: New york is uh looking to move as we speak.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Before I jumped on this call, I just saw an article.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: New York State is moving on a bill this week actually, it'll likely pass the assembly in the Senate that will restrict how companies utilize health care data.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: I think, in light of President Trump coming to office, you'll see many progressive blue states try to put in safeguards protecting reproductive right related data, and so I think New York's going to be moving on on a similar bill.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: So I think you know, whether it's data privacy, ai, social media, it's going to be a wild.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: You know Q1 and Q2 on just keeping up with the pace of which all these states are moving.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Do you think I was just thinking about this?
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever asked you this, but I know.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: So we talked about how California is pretty like they're pretty strict compared to other states.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Is there one state out there that seems to have done it in your mind or your perspective, has done it the best so far, that other states are probably going to follow?
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Is that going to be something like Colorado?
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: Colorado.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: It's interesting their attorney general just recently updated their law.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't say there's one particular state that stands out.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Like I said, maryland is interesting in that I think it is now being seen as the new GDPR light approach, with that strict kind of data minimization requirement.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Companies should only be able to collect information that's necessary for it to be able to operate.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: So that's an interesting one.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: I think you'll see other blue states, I think, look to emulate that Maryland bill.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: You know, gabe, kind of going back to your question of why states, you know I definitely think there's a role for states to legislate in this space.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: Quite simply, they move at a quicker pace than what Congress does in DC.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: I go back to kind of that concept of I think you know there absolutely should be a law across all 50 states that governs how companies can utilize consumer data.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: Right now, the reality is, like I said, only 19 states have laws in place, so there are people that live in the US that don't have any laws in the books on how companies can use their data.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: That said, you know, I think there should be a baseline approach.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: I think states should be allowed to enact maybe more stringent requirements, building on kind of that floor that could be enacted from Congress.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: So whether we see that play out anytime soon, who knows?
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: But that's kind of in my mind, I think the appropriate role between the state and the federal authorities here.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: It's a great point.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: The velocity at which a bill can move through at the state level certainly offers a ton of advantages.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Let me build on Cam's question, though, and not necessarily to name and shame so much as to educate.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: But where are there states that are lagging in their effort?
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, great question.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't say not to shame any of our state legislators out there.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: You know there is a case this past year where Vermont nearly got a bill.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: It actually passed out of both chambers, it got before the governor's desk and the governor actually vetoed the bill and the reason why was that it included a somewhat controversial enforcement mechanism called a private right of action, which allows consumers to bring litigation directly with the company.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Currently, the only state that allows for such an enforcement mechanism is California.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Industry, for many obvious reasons, does not care for private right of action.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: They wish that the attorney general would be the sole kind of enforcement authority.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: Gabe, I mentioned Vermont because I think you had a very progressive legislature looking to move, I think, on a bill that would have been very similar to what Maryland was able to pass with their strict kind of data and minimization requirements.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: But because it included that private right of action enforcement piece, the governor refused to sign the bill.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: So I think we'll see Vermont take another swing at it in 2025.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: I think it's also interesting big states such as New York, illinois, massachusetts, heavily populated states.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: They don't have any comprehensive.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: They have not passed any kind of comprehensive data privacy bills to date.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: They've certainly debated them over the years but have not been able to pass anything.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: So it'll be interesting with this reproductive rights data privacy bill that's expected to pass in New York, does that mean that there will be a broader kind of comprehensive bill that's enacted this year in New York state?
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: We'll see, but maybe that's what I would say.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: Gabe is, some of those big blue states Illinois, new York, massachusetts are not on the list.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: We'll see if maybe they're able to pass something in 2025 to get them up there.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: That provision sounds familiar and I'm trying to remember.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Is it because the EU has such a similar provision or the CCPA?
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: But are there other states that have that private right to action provision?
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so just California.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: It's certainly debated, but to date only California has that with their current privacy regulatory work.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: It was a thing, and I think maybe the EU does have something similar.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: I can understand why industry does not want such a thing.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: That certainly makes sense.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an argument to be made both ways for that, I see, and just given to the state attorney general for them to have sole authority.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: So you'll continue to see that be highly prioritized from industry in terms of not having that be a part of these different state bills that are passed.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to shift gears a little bit.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I'm curious if you've heard this or seen this.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Dave, are you an Apple user?
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: I am.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: I'm talking to you from my MacBook.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: I got my iPhone sitting across from me as well.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: So what are your thoughts on the new iOS update?
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: If you've even noticed this Siri I think it's Siri, gabe.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I might be getting this wrong but basically all of your applications were automated in the new ios update and turned on for siri and ai to do like research on how you use the app, and you have to individually go in and turn that off if you don't want that.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: That seems like a pretty.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: It seems like a pretty big deal in terms of like a pretty.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: It seems like a pretty big deal in terms of just opting you into something that seems very privacy oriented.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was not aware of that.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think you know, cam, you hit the nail on the head.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: I think opt-in, opt-out, know consent will be a whole new ballgame in terms of you know, we've talked about it very much in the sense of data privacy, but now I think, with AI, it opens up a whole nother can of worms and a whole nother set of policy questions as to you know, how should companies be able to utilize your activity and your data to inform its LLMs?
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: Utilize your activity and your data to inform its LLMs.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Do you see that that's like, could something like that from a big company like Apple?
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Do you think that that could turn into something to where it becomes a, you know, a legal matter in terms of a privacy law?
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: I think to answer that I would say watch what California does.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: I think you know I would say watch what California does.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: I think California continues to be the frontrunner on all things related to tech policy, and it's to no surprise given that it's headquartered to many of the world's largest tech companies, apple included.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: So you know, you have many lawmakers that are in Sacramento that are year after legislative staff in Sacramento sharing that article talking about this doesn't feel right.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: We should maybe look to introduce a bill to address how companies are doing this kind of practice.
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: So I would say watch that space.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: My guess is that you'll probably see some bills that pop up around that issue in Sacramento that are as a result of seeing that maybe update on the iOS.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to that point, because you were mentioning before that most states will meet early on in the year.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: So I'm guessing that if they've already met, that's been talked about and they're already probably on the ball about it, most likely.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, california.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: They are one of the few states they have a prolonged session, so they gaveled back in early January.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: They're in session through September, so they've got.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: You know, like I said, the contrast to that I would say would be Virginia, right, where they're back early January.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: They only have two months, so they've got a very short session.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: California is the opposite.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: They've got a period of time now where lawmakers are simply there's a bill introduction deadline in about late February, I believe.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: So you'll start to see some of the more tech-focused policymakers introduce their bills that they want to push for this year.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: That's the kind of period that we're in.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: So I'll be curious, cam, to see if any bills that are introduced over the coming weeks in Sacramento if they touch on this latest iOS update and the concerns they might have from a policy perspective.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: If you're not intimately familiar, since you are heavy in the iOS ecosystem, you probably heard it advertised as, quote Apple Intelligence that's the name of the slick marketing name that they gave it, and they are very much local models, right?
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: So they're touting that, they're pushing these locally on your phone, which all that really means to me is that the model itself runs locally.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: It tells me nothing about what happens to the data that goes in the model or out of the model, especially the out part of the model I'm very interested in, and maybe that data never leaves the local device.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: From my perspective A I don't know that, but B anytime back to the minimization problem anytime you create more data, it's just there right Now.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: It can be used in any number of ways, maliciously or otherwise, and so what Apple did was they did turn on every single application.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: If you go into settings and then you go down to an application and then you choose Siri and AI, you will see where it opted you in for every application to be monitored its behavior so that it can make recommendations that you should be able to do outside of that application.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: That's my second problem If it has enough information on what I'm doing in the app to make recommendations about unrelated apps outside of it.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: You know all the efforts that Apple went through to demonstrate to us that everything was containerized and isolated such that applications can't otherwise affect each other.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Something is not right.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Something is not right.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: I do not know what is not right, but at a bare minimum, I don't like being opted into things.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I don't like surprise parties.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: I don't want them.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Tell me ahead of time whether or not you plan on throwing me one.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's interesting to hear you say that.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: I think to that end, there was a bill that was introduced in sacramento last session that just simply touched on.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: I believe it was even called the ai transparency act and it put in some requirements of simply how companies should be required to notify consumers as to how they're scraping or using their data to inform their AI models.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: Right and so it's as simple as that, and you know that did not pass, I believe, this past session, but it's going to, I'm sure, be brought up, going to, I'm sure, be brought up, and transparency is going to be a big piece.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: And just how is the public being notified of how companies are using its data to inform its AI models?
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: To that point wasn't there?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Maybe this was just talks, but maybe it wasn't passed and I'm not informed enough.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: But wasn't there something where they were talking about God?
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: It just passed my brain, oh my gosh.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: No, don't do this to me.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: We were just talking about God.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: It just passed my brain, oh my gosh.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: No, don't do this to me.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: We were just talking about this with the app transparency.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Oh my God, come back to me, because I'm going to have to cut this out.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: I forgot, I just had it.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: It'll come back.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: The federal bill I got too many thoughts in my mind right now.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I confused myself.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: It'll come back to me, though.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: Let me think All good.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: What were we just talking about?
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe it'll come back Talking about.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: AI transparency, ios update, apple intelligence my gosh Ew.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: What is my brain doing to me?
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: It'll probably pop in, hopefully before we end the show.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, while I'm thinking about that, it'll come back.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Dave, is there anything that you want to touch on that we haven't talked about for the listeners?
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Maybe anything that might be worth speaking about?
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: No, I don't think so.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: This has been a really great discussion.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Again, I think I'll say be aware of what's going on in DC and how it impacts your business and your profession, whether that's data privacy, whether that's ai, online platforms, right, social media but I think you wouldn't be doing your job if you weren't even more closely following what's going on at the state level, because that's where I think the rubber is really going to hit the road and you're going to see a lot of states move on their own, their own proposals, um.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, that's kind of what I would suggest.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: We're in the interesting just the start of the 2025 sprint, um, so check in, see how I'm doing.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: Uh, june and july.
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: I haven't pulled out all my hair.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: Uh, you know, mid-year is when a lot of the states adjourn for for the year and then they start planning for 2026.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, it's kind of a crazy, crazy but fun time of the year where everyone's just starting off their sprint.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: So I'm glad I was able to come on and talk to her a little bit about how all this stuff works.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah we really appreciate your time.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolute pleasure having you, Dave.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: We're going to have to have you back.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe a mid-year check-in to see as the dust settles.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: How many more states do we add to that 19 for data privacy?
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: How many more states in addition to Colorado are going to move on AI?
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: Is TikTok still around?
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: There are a lot of questions that will hopefully be answered by mid-year or so.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: When you return.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: There was one topic I didn't get a chance to touch on, but by then I think we'll be able to have a better, in-depth conversation about it the decentralization of these platforms, because I think that's really part of the underlining problem as it pertains to things like TikTok.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Right Like TikTok wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that all of the data and its ownership were centralized by a government that we otherwise rightfully so, by the way do not want to control.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: What is a media platform?
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Right Like we can talk about it just being a brain rot platform, but the truth is it's very much a media platform, like no two ways about it, and we already have laws in the books that state that, you know, foreign entities can't control over certain percentages of our media platforms in any capacity, whether that's your local NBC or a newspaper.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Right Like the Chinese government is not allowed to own the New York Times, for example, and so really, what's happening is it's being seen as such.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: But I think the technology part of this conversation is about the centralization of that data and, as these tech giants, who are also all controls of centralized platforms, how quotes?
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have enough mass sweller users, that we actually see people you know exodus-ing Twitter in mass and heading there, but that is on the horizon, I think, from a pure technology standpoint.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: But I'm excited to talk about that and any updates that we see across the state, the state legislatives.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Gabe as it relates to antitrust and competition issues.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: I mean we're in a whole different ballgame now with Trump and a new Republican administration around ownership and control and influence on some of the world's largest tech platforms.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: You're dealing with a much different audience today on those issues than you were just last week with President Biden.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: Folks like Lena Kahn, who were at the Federal Trade Commission, were in a whole different ballgame now with the new Republican regime in town.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: So I think it'll be really interesting to see how that plays out.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: You know, just given the simple fact, like I said, all of these CEOs were seated literally right behind the president during his inauguration yesterday.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: So what that means in terms of how these companies can continue to operate without government interference, I think will be really interesting to watch.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah on the air floor.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: All right, before we let you go, two fun questions.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Here we go.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Is there?
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: They're real good stuff.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: If you could eat one dish or one food for the rest of your life, what would it be?
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: And why would it be churros?
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: Oh man, one dish would it be.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: And why would it be churros?
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: Oh man, one dish.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: I would say anything, anything italian man I went to italy all right, what a couple years back, and I felt like I just ate like a king for a week.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: I just whether it's pizza, pasta, any of that stuff, man, I, I, uh, I can't get enough of it and I'm trying to do more cooking of it myself.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: So if you've got any good recipes, send them over.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: I have a good recipe hat.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: Anytime an Italian recipe or any recipe calls for garlic, just triple it.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: That's the end.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Just triple it All right, there we go.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: That's the end.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: You can't go wrong with too much garlic.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: You cannot go wrong with too much garlic and butter.
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: Butter makes it better Okay.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I think mine would be probably tacos.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: It's hard like Mexican something tacos.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Pizza.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Pizza and pasta, man, especially if it's like Homemade, it's such a big difference.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: See, as Dave Ann said it, I thought In my head.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Here comes the monkey pod.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: He's like only Italian and it's like leftover Olive Gardens for life.
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong man Tour of Italy Tour of Italy.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: I did a number on a number of that.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: I don't have any of them close to me in the city now.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: I got to travel out to the Burbs to get me some Olive Garden.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: But I still love me some tour, is that really italian, though.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: That's my boy, that's the monkey parvata this is like, and it's only leftover olive darts.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: It's not even like fresh.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: It's like, let me see, uh, I had one more, I won't.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: I won't do the superpower one to you.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: I feel like we've done that before in the past and previous things cute you don't have a short list of these just up at the ready I do, but I'm having a trouble picking one.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Right now I'm trying to find one that's kind of interesting.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, you know what?
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Let's just go with this.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: What's one show or something that you've been watching lately that you just can't get enough of?
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: I gotta say, guys, it feels like it's been I think it has been two or three years.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: Squid games, season one, uh feels like an eternity ago.
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: So I was a little it's not as excited when I heard season two was coming out.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: But man, I'm like four episodes in now and I I don't know what it is about that crazy show, but uh, it's just, it's just really entertaining, which I don't know like horribly violent and uh, you know it's it's, but it makes for some good television.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: So I like it.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: That's a good point.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: To that point, I think like, like Stranger Things is taking forever to get these last two seasons and I'm like losing interest, it's not coming out they're getting too old.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: The kids are just way too old now.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Is it still the same cast from the first season?
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Mostly, yeah they gotta be all grown up now anyways thank you both, thank you dave, thank you guys, thank you let's, let's touch base.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: Later this year we can kind of do a look back and see how much of all what we just talked about actually uh, actually came true so sounds good.