Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 543: What Whitetails Really See & How We Know It with Bradley Cohen

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Ep. 543: What Whitetails Really See & How We Know It with Bradley Cohen · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: modern whitetail hunter and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: to the Wire to Hunt podcast. I'm a guest host
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Tony Peterson, and today I'm speaking with dear biologist brad Cohen. Alright, folks,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, which is brought
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: to you by First Light. You might notice that this
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: is not the voice of Mark Kenyon. He sent me
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: an email last week and said that he picked up
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: a new hobby, which is learning fictional languages, and he's
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: off to a convention in Omaha to really become and
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: this is his words, not mine, fluent in Wookie. That's
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: no joke, and I don't know what it means, and
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: at this point I'm too scared to ask. So anyway,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: today I'm speaking with Bradley Cohen, who is a dear
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: biologist and a researcher. Cohen is also a passionate bow hunter,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: and he happens to be an expert on dear vision.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: He's responsible for developing and seeing through one of the
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: most comprehensive studies on deer vision that exists his findings,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: which we discuss in detail throughout this episode are fascinating
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: and some of them will directly help you become a
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: better deer hunter. Plus it's just really interesting stuff to
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: learn about our favorite game animal. Brad, Welcome to the
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Wire to Hunt podcast. Ma'am, hey, good to be here, Tony.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: You You come highly recommended from our very own Patrick Durkin.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: And I told Pat that I was looking for somebody
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: who was an expert in deer vision and he said,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: there's only one place you gotta go for this, and
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: so I really appreciate you taking some time to talk
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: with me today on on white tails of what they
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: really see and what you've learned about that. Yeah. Man,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: anything I can do to help share the information we
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: have and the science we do, I'm happy to I'm
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: happy to be part of it. So can you just
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: before we dive into this, can you get the listeners
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: just a breakdown of you know, where you're doing your research,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: what you're doing, Uh, how you got into it A
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: little bit right? So? UM, I originally am from New
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: York and then I got a master's degree at the
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: University of Georgia working under Carl Miller and Bob Warren,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: and as part of that research, we started to examine uh,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: deer vision a little bit more into what colors can
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: they see? And a lot of it was focused on
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: getting a behavioral measure or having them basically tell us
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: in their own unique deer way what colors they could see.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: And then I stayed at University of Georgia working on
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: deer during my PhD doing something completely different. But during
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: that time we had several other students coming through working
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: on deer vision and I oversaw that research. Um So
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: basically we've done in total, I've been part of about
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: four studies focused on deer vision, anything from their color
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: to their visual or color sensitivity, of their visual acuity,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: to their movement sensitivity. So let's let's back up a
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: second here. Out of all the stuff that you could
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: study out there, why how did you settle on? How
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: did this become a relevant topic of research? So let
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: me back up a little bit more and just tell
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: you that when I went I got my undergrad degree
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: from a general biology program in up state in New York,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: and I went to this college it was called Singing
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Genes CEO, and I went there because it was right
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: next to my hunting spot that I grew up. Deer
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: hunting my whole life, so like hunting has always kind
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: of been a big central role in my life. And
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I actually just put into Google scholar the word dear
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: and Carl Miller came up, and that's how I kind
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: of met him. But when I went down there, my
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: degrees were actually got biology or bachelor degrees in biology
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: and psychology, all right, so that's gonna be important when
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: we talked about how I understood how to kind of
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: get these measures. But we went down there and had
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: a unique opportunity. Most students that come into the wildlife
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: profession they get money from a grant or from a grant,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: and that granting agency typically has specific objectives. I want this,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: this and this done well. I was on a on
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: money that was basically left over from the project like
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: they had. There was a lot of money and there
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: was no direct deliverables to be associated and I was
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: so lucky in that. Uh. Dr Warren and Dr Miller
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: were just like, let's talk about some of the things
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: we don't understand about dear biology. Now, in this case,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: the money was coming from the Georgia Department of Transportation,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: which it's kind of weird to think about that, but
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: they were interested in dear vision from the sake of
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: how can we build mitigation devices to get her off
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: the road. And some of that comes back to just
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: basic biology of deer. And so the world was my oyster.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I kind of had the experience to understand like this
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: was a cool study, and the funding agency had to
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: want to like know, and we just took off from there.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: So you you kind of you kind of looked into
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: sort of an open lane there with that money already
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: being there. And this was driven by I'm assuming that
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: the d OT was looking at this going how do
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: we prevent vehicle collisions with deer? And you thought, well,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: we've we've tried the little whistlers on the bumper, and
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: we've tried some you know, oral A U, R, O
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: A L methods. But you're you're like, well, how do
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: we how do we make something that's a visual deterrent
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: to them? Yeah, So, like the the Georgia Department Transportation
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: been funding research for a little bit of time trying
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: to be like, you know, what do fences due to
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: dear behavior, Well, it just creates a little hot spot
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: where they can cross the fence on the front and
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: back end of it. Uh, hey, do deer whistles work?
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Do roadside reflectors work? And the answer was always no,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: they don't work. They don't work because it's not based
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: on dear biology. So Georgia Department Transportation said, hold on,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: let's take a step back, let's tell us what dear
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: ken see what they can here, and then let us
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: kind of work with you to design these devices that
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: would mitigate it. In this case, it was and we
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: wanted to understand things like how does dear vision affect
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: a deer in the headlight look. So one of the
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: applications of our research was working towards building a better
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: headlight that would be less bright to a deer, but
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: similar brightness to you and I. So they don't get like,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: oh my god, they don't know cars there, They just
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: know that something very bright is coming at them. And
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: so that's kind of the application that Georgia Department Transportation
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: was in. But then, being the wildlife biologists and hunters
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: that we are, we're always thinking about, Okay, what are
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: the other applications. So you looked at this and you said,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: this is a perfect opportunity. And I'm assuming as soon
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: as this this opportunity came up. You looked at to
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: see what other studies had been done, and you saw
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: there was kind of a pretty big gap there in
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: our understanding of dear vision. It was kind of it's
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: kind of stunning when you think about one of the
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: most well studied animals in the world and yet how
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: little we understood about their just basic biology. What do
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: they hear, what do they see? All of that. And
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: typically it's because the people that study dear tend to
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: be more application minded. We're always trying to say, Okay,
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: let's go out and ready them in their natural environment
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: and then we'll make hypoths and based on that. And
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: coming from that general biology background, I was more interested
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: in the Okay, well let's go back to the physiology
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: point of view, and then we can project out to
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: why they act like they do. Yeah, so you had
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: you had a unique opportunity to use penn raise deer
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: and design a I mean it looked like almost like
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: a Pavlavian path towards uh, you know, training deer and
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: then using that that food reward training to start to
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: figure out their their vision. So before before we get
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: into the design of that study, when you when you
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: were like, all right, I'm gonna do this, or you're
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: you're really kicking this around. You're talking to Carl Miller
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: and a couple of other people. Did you kind of
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: have it in your mind where you like, I think
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: I know how dear c or did Was there like
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: a basic biological understanding of the rods and cones and
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the design of a deer's eye were so you went
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: into it and you're like, I think I got this
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: already or not really, so back about don't quote me
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: on it. Maybe twenty years before that, J Knights and
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: a bunch of other research. Now. Ja Knights is is
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: an interesting character in and of himself. He's he's now
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: at the University of Washington, and he's like the expert
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: on animal vision. He's single handedly is like working to
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: cure color blindness and humans working with monkeys. I mean,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: the guys like way above my pay grade. But he
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: had actually come to the University of Georgie about twenty
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: years before that and basically done a study where you
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: simply hook up electrodes to an animal's head and you
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: flicker lights in their eye and you're looking for an
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: electrical signal pulsing from the retina. Every time you pulse
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: a light, you get that that signal, that cellular signal,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: and from that we can at least tell um how
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: many cones an animal has, and that's cones are what
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: seeks color? Uh do we have rods which are basically
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: the more light sensitive black and white type um photo receptors.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: And then also like what are the peak sensitivities of
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: those cones and rods? So he already had laid that out,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: but you have to understand oftentimes that cellular response isn't
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: always the same way that an animal perceives it because
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: and the truth, perception is both mediated by the cellular
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: responses of of your retina or something like that, but
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: also your brain right and you know, for example, you
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: and I, if we just looked at our cellular responses
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: would be very sensitive to blue, like we're But the
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: truth is we have so many different ways we inhibit
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: blue in from being uh perceived by us, and that
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: we are very poor at perceiving any type of blue color.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: But that same type of study, just looking at the
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: cellular would say, hey, we can see it pretty well.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: So there's often this disconnect, which that's where we were going, was, Okay,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: we have some guests in it on what we think,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: dear my colors they might be able to see, but
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: we need a behavioral confirmation. We need them to tell
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: us that they're perceiving this color in real life so
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: that we know, hey, they see it. Does that make
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: sense yea. So essentially the four year study we we
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: you could kind of say, Okay, this is the spectrum
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: they can see. These are the colors they're they're picking up.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: We think, we hope, well, okay it appears that way,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: but that's as far as it goes, right, Like, you
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: don't know to what degree, and you don't know what
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: that means to them, right bingo? And so what did
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: you do with that? He said, that's not enough, dude,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Let's let's let's dive deeper. Yeah, so we had we
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: had tried to train. I was like, listen, I think
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: we can train dear to respond to light. In other words,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: it's just a classic have lobby and dog type experiment
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: where we're gonna say, hey, um, there's two troughs with
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: a treat. One of them is gonna have allow you
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: to have access to treat, uh, and it's gonna have
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: a light on over it. The other trough will still
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: have the treat, but if you try and approach it,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: it's gonna shut the doors and you're not gonna get
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: that treat at all. I said, that's just a it's
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: actually in psychology called the skinner box. It's it's a
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: super basic way we train animals. And to be honest,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: I remember very distinctly Carl Miller kind of laughing it
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: off because we had tried to train dear before and
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: when your hand raising dear, and because he's have to
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: be tamed deer, and you're trying to do this in
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: a non automated way, it's it's impossible. You can't get
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: the control that you need, the number of repetitions that
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: you need. You know, I think the student would before me,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: you know, took fifteen dear home and raised them by themselves,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: only to have one that even like kind of could
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: do an experiment with vision. And so the first thing
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: was like, could we even get this to work with
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: the deer? Understand that if we presented them to to
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: troughs to eat out of both with the treat, but
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: only to approach the trough with the light on, just
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: a bright light, would they go to it? And boom.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: We did it automated. We basically had to learn computer language.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: It was just it was fun, but I never want
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: to do it again. But by the end of it,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: we had shown very clearly, at least with one dear, hey,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: we can at least train a dear to respond to
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: a light being on. Does that make sense? So the
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: first hurdle that you bumped into was just the people
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: thought you wouldn't be able to train dear for a
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: measured response. Yeah, and it was very difficult prior to
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: getting the type of technology that you needed to automate
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: the process. And basically all I did, along with David Osborne,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: who's a research coordinator at the University of Georgia, is
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: we worked actually with what we call the Instrument Shop
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: at the University of Georgi. These are people that make
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: fancy instruments for specific purposes and they made an entire
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: set of devices that allowed us to automate the process entirely.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: I would hit a button on my compurece ays start
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: and then I'd show up two days later to collect
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: the data. And during those two days I didn't have
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: to be there, but the deer was constantly being trained
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: on the series of trials where the troughs open up
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: the treats there, the light turns on. If the deer
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: picks the lit trough, you get to eat the treat.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: If you don't, it closes and and very quickly, within
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: a couple of days though that first year learned okay,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: I'm going to approach the lit trough and then it
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: was off to the races. So to say, how long
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: did it take those deer to start figuring that out?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Generally we were able to train them within a week
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: to two weeks, so and that means that they were
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: getting they were going to the trough with the light
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: on over it over eight percent of time, very quickly.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Now for animals, that's pretty good, you know, you and
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: I would have figured out in minutes. For an animal
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: to do it in a about two weeks span was
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: pretty impressive. Yeah, I mean it's I I work in
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: the dog space a lot and trained dogs a lot,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: and it's so it's just you know, people will argue
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: whether treat training is valuable for puppies or not. I'm like,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: so valuable and so easy, you know, and that's an
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: animal that's been bred to work with us. So you
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: get the eye contact, and you have some benefits over
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: deer in a multiple different ways. But so you you
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: look at this and did you did you do this
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: first stage just as a proof of concepts It was
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: a proof of concept. Uh. We came together as a
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: group and kind of said, Okay, we've got a little
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: bit of money that we're willing to put towards this
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: divide us and uh, they gave us the green light
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: to Dr Miller in particular, was skeptical about the idea
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: of it, and he's like, okay, not in a bad way,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: just like, prove it to me. And when we proved it,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: it was like all thumbs up, let's go this is
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: this is great. So it's what did you do from there?
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: We then so we wound up training a total of
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: seven deer so to the same process, and they and
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: they were all adult does, right, all adult does. And
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: And the reason is, let me just tell you why
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: we did choose Does versus Bucks. We had team Bucks. Um.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: But the thing is that Bucks, during the rut or
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: just most of the time, they're angry, and when they're tame,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: they're dangerous because they see you as just another deer.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: So they'll happily attack every single thing that's around. So
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: females a lot easier to work with and and there
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: was no reason to believe that would buy us the
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: results at all, Right, No, not at all. No, there's
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: no there's really no difference across sexes in animals as
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: far as what they can see or can't see. UM.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: So we we train them to that and then we
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: get very We worked with Energizer to get very very
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: specific wavelength l E. D s. Now, this is this
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: is where it kind of gets interesting. So you get
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: these LEDs and their specific wavelength, Like it's not just
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: like this is a blue color, it's like, this is
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: a wavelength in the blue color. And we started off
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: the light starts off as intense as possible, very bright,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: and we trained and the deer instantly adapt. They're like, oh,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: it's not a bright white light anymore. It's a bright
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: blue light, and so they start to um actually trained
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: to that, and then once you get them completely good
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: to go, then you start to actually have the intensity
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: because your ability to see something of a color, right,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: isn't just the wavelength of the color itself, it's the
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: intensity at which it's being presented to you if that
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: makes sense, right, And so we have the intensities until
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: basically they were performing at chance. In other words, they
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: stopped being able to see the light and they were
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: just randomly approaching the tropicals. They couldn't see it um.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: And so we did that for a bunch of different
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: wavelengths of light, both in the blue wavelength which is
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: like um in the four hundred nanometers which doesn't matter
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: for here, but in short wavelength and the long wavelength,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: which is the reds. What did you start to find?
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I was? I was fascinated. So with deer, deer we're
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: able to see blue much better than we can UH
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: typically something like twenty times UH enhanced sensitivity to blue
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: colors than we have. So there were times when I
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: was testing blue wavelengths where I couldn't see that the
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: light was on, but the deer could. And on the
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: other side of it is they could not see reds
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: hardly at all, very low sensitivity to reds. And so
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: what it what it did is enables to confirm those
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: kind of previous anatomical or physiological measurements. And now we
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: can go from there to figure out, okay, this is
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: how a geer precedes its world. So there before you
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: did this, there was the suspicion that this is what
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: it was gonna show, that that they were very sensitive
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: to blues and not reds m m m m. Yeah,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: so that's what we thought would probably you know that
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: that was what the anatomical measures had suggested. So what
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: surprised you about it then was it was it like
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: the degree at which they could see the blues. So
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: the degree it wasn't just like, okay, actually seeing it
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: play out by your own experience, just how difference the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: sensitivity is. But also we expected subtle or quite large
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: differences actually in the anatomical structure or the anatomical measurements
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: versus the behavioral measurements because time and time again that's
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: what we see in the animal world. But in this
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: case they almost overlapped perfectly. So um, whatever is going
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: on in the cells is being transferred perfectly to the brain.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: It's like a beautiful synchrony, and there's no um like
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: for us, our lens is clean up a lot of light,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: like they get rid of a bunch of different light
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: that you and I would otherwise process. For deer, that's
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: clearly not the case. You see where I'm going with
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: this was there was almost no difference. And so now
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: we have a really clear sense of what they can see.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Can you explain that further? Like how do you well,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: first off, how do you know that? Like? How how
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: did this show that that was that clear to them? Oh? Okay,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: all right, so we take let me back up a
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: little bit here, and I don't want to go in
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: the weeds, so if I go too much into it,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: just play with me here and say, okay, that's enough.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: But you get these measures, all right, So you actually
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: have the intensity of light that they no longer can
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: see right at each wavelength. Then there isn't a crazy
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: equation that has twenty three different variables. Don't ask me
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: to understand them or explain them, but it has twenty
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: three different variables. And you input the data we collected,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: which is literally this wavelength at this intensing. You just
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: basically tracked it over time, and it spits out a
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: beautiful curve. Eve okay. And these curves are basically curves
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: for your photos, your actual true sensitivity to different wavelengths
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: of light. And so we're taking our real data and
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: taking what we understand about how photo receptors actually work,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: and we're projecting that onto Uh this kind of sensitivity graph?
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Sort of? You gotta remember I
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: write squirrel hunting articles for a living, so this is
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: this is this is heavy stuff, but I'm not Yeah,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I don't mean to make it that heavy, and it's
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: still heavy stuff for me. I mean there's a lot
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: of stuff that a lot of heavy lifting that occurred
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes with Dr Knights and all those people.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, Well, I love it. So
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: you you start to figure this out and you and
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: by having the wavelengths, you start to go, Okay, we
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: know where the limits are on there. We know with
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: the with the deer's range. And you didn't see any
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: variants in those seven deer that were the test subjects.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: They all were consistent across each deer. Yeah, so a deer,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: we're remarkably similar. You know, there's always variation, right, There's
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: some there are more trainable and others. You know, you
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: always get the one dear that's the exceptional performing, you
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: get the one that's like kind of dumb. But they
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: were pretty similar. And um, then we go, okay, well,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: this is the actual women's we understand the outer limits
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: on both sides, from the reds to the blues, and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: we understand, now, okay, based on how we measured it,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: they definitely only have two cones. They definitely have their
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: cones peaked at these wavelengths, and we understand now what
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: the different colors they can see, how the different intensities
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: of those colors in their play. Well, we can lay
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: out almost with perfect or with precision, how at least
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: a color world looks to dear. So let's let's talk
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: about that. Where where like evolutionary wise, where's the benefit
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: to seeing those those blues so vividly and not seeing
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: the reds? All right, let's back up a second here
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: and just understand that Dear do not perceive their world
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: anything similar to like how we do, especially with colors.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: But what you have to understand is that you're very
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: sensitive to blue colors, which we are not sensitive to.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Dere are not sensitive to red colors, which you and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I are more sensitive to. So the blue coloration being
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: sensitive to that makes a lot of sense from kind
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: of uh an evolutionary perspective, if if only because if
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: you look at the light that's available during sunset and sunrise.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: A lot of that is actually the blue spectrum. So
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: here's the crazy thing. I want you to sit back
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: and think when you're sitting there, thirty minutes prior to sunset,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: and that just twins of highlight, twilights coming over or
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: on sunrise, right, just a little bit. That world is
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: lit up for a deer. But because you and I
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: don't see blues very well, it's dark to us. I
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: don't know. That's kind of crazy to think, right, but
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: our own our lack of sensitivity to the light that's
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: most available during sunrise and sunset is why it's dark
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: to us, and theoretically wide dear most sensitive to it
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: because it's the light that's available when they moved the most.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: This is going to be a crazy So I just Mark,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the host of this podcast, recommended and uh a book
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: about by what was it called? It was about evolutionary
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: biology on islands. I can't I can't remember the technical
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: term for it, but in that book there was there
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: are some examples of studying baboons and some other primates
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: and how it tied loosely to us being so you know,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: like so reliant on daylight and so scared of nighttime predators.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: That our eyes evolved for lots of daylight coming in
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: because that's when we're most active and we have to
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: get our stuff done before the things that eat us
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: come out at night. And what you're saying is dear,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: because they their primary movement periods, their first and last light,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: their eyes have evolved or their vision has evolved to
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: take advantage of the wavelengths they're most popular then or
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the most think most available then. So in times of
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: perceived darkness for us and other predators, right before nighttime
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: and before like you know, not peaked daytime, deer see
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: a well lit environment where they can easily distinguish predators.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: No problem that, Okay, So then let me ask you
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: this if if that's the case, or that is the case,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: how does that tie into their ability to see it
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: at night in the dark. Uh So, that's a little
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: bit different. That's an anatomical feature of their eye. They
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: have what's called they're taping them loosen them, which is
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: basically nothing more than a reflective lens on the back end.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: You know that like when you spotlight deer and they
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: their eyes glow, that's actually the light being reflected back
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: into their retina, so it hits their retina and goes
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: out and then gets reflected back. So what they're doing
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: is like they're supersizing the amount of life that's there,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: so they're super efficient about gathering light. So while things
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: might be an absolute darkness to us, it's actually a
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: little more lit to a deer. So that's how they're
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: able to see it at nighttime. So well is that
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: they're able to more efficiently harnessed, for lack of a
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: better word, available light. So that that's I mean that
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: sort of just plays off of like, you know, we
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: we just launched that James Wood Web telescope into space
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: and it's got a you know, it's got mirrors on
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: it that are the size of a tennis court to
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: be able to look, you know, at light that was
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: created thirteen billion years ago. This is a mini version
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: of just bouncing light back and forth and taking advantage
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: of it. Man, I'll tell you what. It's the coolest
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: part about being in this field is the crazy stuff
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: that you learn about how creators have adapted to live
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: in their environment. But that's exactly what they're doing. It's
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: nothing more than reflective merit and get more light at nighttime.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Is that considers we don't move during during night? Well? Sure,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I mean is that consistent across all you know? I
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: mean you see raccoons the same thing, walleye the same thing.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: It's all. That's what that is. Will nocturnal out any
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: animal that has some kind of peak activity at night.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Most animals tend to have that kind of feature. It
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: goes by a bunch of different names. But yeah, a
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: reflective layer in their eye is there? Is there a
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Is there some kind of loss in their ability in
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: the daylight because of that then, like in in bright daylight,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: because I know, I know there is with the blue
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: light to some extent, right, but also you know that
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: ability to harness that much light when it's dark. To us,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: is there a sacrifice on the daylight side. Not necessarily.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: All they do is similar to us. They just contract
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: their their lens and everything real, real tight. So if
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: you actually look at the pupil of a dear's eye
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: during the daytime, it'll be really, really really small, but
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: during night that suckers huge. So basically all they're doing
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: is controlling the amount of light that's coming in during
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: the daytime by just letting them very little amount of
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: light come in, if that makes sense. Do they have
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: a greater degree of dilation that they can do with
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: their pupils then than us? It's it's quite a bit bigger, right, yeah. Yeah.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: And they also have a slit eye, so they have
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: more surface area that they're exposing to their eye as
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: they dilate, So as they constrict there basically lift their
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: blessing and lessening to a much larger extent your than
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: yours and eyes I would be all right, So what
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: is what does this knowledge do for us as hunters?
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I know everybody's listening. There's all right, getting past this side?
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Like what kind of what? What color should I be
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: wearing out there? What should I be aware of? Just
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: color wise? Not movement yet, because I want to talk
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: about movement. Want me jump in the movement? Well, don't
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: wear blue jeans or any of that stuff. And you
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: gotta all right, so you've already made me go like
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: way down the rabbit hole here, I've got a mighty
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: there was a tect terms through out there. But let
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: me just tell you this. You gotta understand that, like
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: they only have two cones and a surface by I
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: don't think it's easy to appreciate what that means. But
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: we have three cones, and uh, it means that we
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: can see about a million variations in color, subtle variations, right, dear,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Just by having one less cone, it means that they
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: see much less variations in color. They basically only see
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: yellow into a yellowish green color and blue. That's it.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: So your red is yellow, your orange is yellow, You're
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: blue is blue. When you start to think about how
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: everything we see out there, for even just something like
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: camo is you know, a variation of green and brown
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: and all this, and then you kind of throw that
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: into Howard deer season, it's all just the same yellow.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: Like you're basically in a lot of different camo patterns,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: one glorious big blob of yellow. Then we'll explain why
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: that really probably doesn't matter all that much. And when
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: you get to movement, So is this when you you know,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: when I started hunting, and you know, you can kind
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: of follow the evolution of camo patterns to some extent.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: For a while, there was a huge push for photo
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: realistic elements, right like, how do you take a high
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: resolution image of the woods or the leaves of the oak?
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: You know, oak leaves or whatever, get it right on
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: a on a shirt or a jacket, whatever, and it
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: looks just like that. And we've sort of moved beyond
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: that to these abstract jumbold kind of shading. That is
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: that a direct response to what we've learned about dear vision. No,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: it's the camouflage world is simply just what people think
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: is cool in the moment. It's just sales in here, yeah,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's all sales. I mean, but you know,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: it's not to say that like SITCO type years aren't
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: based on some biology. They certainly are. Like they worked
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: with j Knights to come up with that pattern. Um.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: But there's a couple of things to understand that. Let
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: me just continue with this one thing, all right, So
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: everything's kind of green. And then also when deer are
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: most active sunrise and sunset, there are a lot of
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: blues in the environment. Well, we I've done spectral reflectance
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: patterning on a lot of different camera patterns. Any type
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: of white color. Um, just through the dyeing process that
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: camouflage companies use, a deer would perceived that as blue. Um.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: The other thing is like, so you have a bunch
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: of blue stuff. And then also like definitely don't use
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: any type of detergents with the typical detergency you guys
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: would use, because there are like you v your blue
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: enhancers in there that you and I don't see is
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: blue because we can't see it just brightens our shirts.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Deer would see that as is certainly some kind of
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: bluish hue or coloration. So all that comes together, Like
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: if you look at my count sol like I made,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I made a camera way back when after I did this,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: and I kind of just use subtle variations of that,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: like I just make my own camera nowadays, because it
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: doesn't look like anything you've ever seen. It's got a
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: ton of different colors on it, it's got different brightness
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: is and and it's all related to also like I
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: just bow hunt, so like it's also related to increasing
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: my movements. But it doesn't look like anything that's out there,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: because most of what's out there is literally just based
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: on making it look cool, so hunters by it. Uh
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I have have you ever? I'm sure you have uh
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: paid attention to you know, the fishing industry, and there's
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: very similar arguments for phishing lures as well, and the
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: colors that they think that you know, bass can see
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: for example, you know, like they see orange really well,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: they think and they you know, red disappears pretty quickly underwater,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: and you know, and it's it's made to catch. It
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: made to catch you know, your dollars and not fish necessarily.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: But so is there is there any benefit then? Uh too?
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: You know the new wave of patterns that you see
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: out there, Yeah, I think they're a little bit more
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: efficient and kind of you know, they have so they'll
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: talk about this macro pattern versus micro pattern. That's that's
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: fancy words were saying, big blobs versus small blobs, and
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: the bigger blobs do tend to be like, um, more differentiated.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: But yeah, right, it's all about and this isn't a
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: bad thing, right people. A lot of people are trying
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: to do their best. But you know it's like, you know,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: shark true stor is my favorite law in the world
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: to use a shark trees And I found out like
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: two years ago that best can't even see that color.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, so this is just some kind
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: of variation of silver to them. It's all a matter
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: of like you're selling the people on what they want
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: just to um to wear well, isn't there sort of
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: kind of like a who cares you know, component to
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: this because we know I mean, so I was just
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: writing a piece about getting turkeys to shack Gobble, and
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: you know, lately, especially Michael Chamberlain has been out talking
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: about turkeys a lot. He's I'm actually gonna have him
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: on one of these episodes too, and talking about how,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: you know, we're reversing the order of turkeys right when
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: we when we go out and call a bird in,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: you know, a long beard, inner town whatever, we're kind
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: of like reversing what the nature has you know, designed
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: this to do. But at the same time, thousands and
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: thousands of turkeys are killed that way. So part part
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: of it is like an is just an academic exercise
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: when we can go out and I can call in
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: turkeys and go, well, this one didn't follow the rules
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: and that one didn't. And we know that the camel
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: patterns that we use, I mean, regardless of what dear
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: c we still kill a lot of them wearing them.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: It's it's all right, all right, I'm a big turkey hunter,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: big duck hunter, big deer hunter. When you hunt, it's
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: not just enough to be like Okay, I've killed a deer.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: You know what haunts you is the time that one
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: time that big deer came in and busted you. And
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: that's the stuff as hunters that we obsess over. It's
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: those little variations of like I shouldn't have moved, why
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: did I stand so early? Why you know, why didn't
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: I find a better background? All of these things. So yeah,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: in the end, I think hunting has evolved into like
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: we know of what works right, it's all these little
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: things that we want to find out to make it
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: better because we're obsessive and where it's our you know,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: our hobby, and when we think of it that way,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: then maybe it does matter when you're talking about just
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: trying to tinker with things. But overall, no, you know what,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: people could walk on the blue jeans and a white
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: shirt and shoot the crap out of deer anyway. You know, Well,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: isn't there isn't there some level of a benefit to
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: from the materials they're used? Is it like a softer
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: material better as far as light reflection or not. So
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: there's different types of materials that go so the materials
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: themselves and don't quote me on everything here, but Basically
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: there's different materials go through different processing on the front
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: end to basically how they're going to be colored white
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: before they're actually camouflaged. And you can in that process
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: ingrain these ub brighteners into the fabric. Okay, and those
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: gonna be a little stiffer to the touch, They're gonna
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: be a little bit harder, but they're gonna last longer.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: They're gonna be brighter longer. And that's why the kind
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: of everyone kind of went that way originally was like, Okay,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: we're making a better quality product, but certainly to a
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: uh hunter, they're less comfortable and to a deer they're
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: more visibly blue. And so now they kind of switched
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: the other way around, which is a different eyeing process
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: that cuts down on that makes it more more subtle.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Got it, all right, let's move on from dear colors?
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: What what do we I think this might be more
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: important and to correct me if I'm wrong here, but
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: what did we learn about dear vision as far as
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: catching movement? All right, let me let me start off
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: with something first. Let me cover that movements related to
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: also their visual acuti or basically like you know how
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: you and I have vision all right, you've gotta understand that,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: like Dear have about visions, so everything is blurry to them,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: all right, So when you think about everything being blurry
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: to them, what they're trying to pick up on is
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: a blob that moves around. Okay, this is important to
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: understand because it also comes back to camouflage and being
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: one big blob. If you think about what their whole
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: job in life is to basically see that predator on
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: the horizon or see them in the woods, and it's
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: just a blob moving around, detect them and haul. Uh,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: there's a couple of things you've got to understand. Dear's
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: eyes don't overlap that well, so they don't have good
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: depth perception, but they have a really good field of view.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: And the way their rods are kind of spaced out
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: across their eyes, they can pick up detection like that.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Now it's not just a pick up movement, just like that.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: And here's the thing. They also process this. This is
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: like philosophical, but it's actually important. Are just time with me.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: We've done this experiment. It fascinates me. But like they
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: and if you want the details, if you want to
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: go down the rabbitable, I think it's awesome. But what
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: you have to understand is that they pick they perceive time,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: to perceive time twice as slow. In other words, they
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: pick up movement twice as easily. They pick up movement
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: twice as easily. Okay, hold on how slow emotions them?
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: I know you won't believe me, but things happen in
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: slow motion. To them, they react twice as fast as
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: we do. They see things twice as quick. They detect
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: things twice as easy. How do we know how dear
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: perceived time? I gotta know that? All right, this is
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: this is crazy. All right? Look, okay, look up flicker
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: fusion rate. If you want to go down that rabbit hole.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Look look this up. But basically, you know, back in
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the day when you when you had a TV before
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: LEDs and all these other TVs came out, you know,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: basically you're stringing together these still pictures on TV, and
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: all TVs have to have what's called the flicker rate,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: and they had to put it above sixty. And the
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: reason they had to put it above sixties because you
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: and I also see things instill frames and our brain
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: refreshes that still image at sixty times per second and
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: creates a holistic movement pattern, but that is not the
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: same across animals. And so um, this is why, like
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: a dog actually has a higher flicker fusion rate. And
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: back in the day when you had an old TV,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: a dog wouldn't watch TV with you because it looked
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: like a bunch of still pictures to them. Okay, so
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: here all right, But that also flicker fusion rate is
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: also how fast you're refreshing time or movement or all
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: of these things. So like have you ever wondered how
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: the hell of bat can catch a bug? Or like
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: how a bird is able to in you know, hit
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: another bird in in air. It's because they're they're like
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: rapidly processing these images like super fast. Now, that relates
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: to their lifespan. Like if you look in the literature,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: there's only so many flickers and so many times you
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: get that that refresh and then you're dead. So like
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: short lived animals refresh a lot, and long lived animals don't.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: And if you want to go into the crazy world,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: it's like, yes, a proof flight that lives twenty four hours,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: even they perceived like an entire lifespan that in their
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: own theoretical world is as long as ours. So yes,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: you're picking that stuff up twice as fast. So I
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: read something recently about that it might have had something
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: to do with space travelers, and but it was about
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: it was like from a fruit flies perspective on what
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: it would see if you were going to smash it.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: And it was like a description of this hand coming
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: down forever, because that's their entire existence, even though to
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: us it's twenty four hours. Yeah, it's it's crazy, but yeah,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: that's that's happening in absolute slow motion. So like they've
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: done studies where they've looked at like how does a
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: bird catch a fly? Like that should amaze you to
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: begin with, right, flies move so fast to us, No
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: to a bird that flies going in slow motion? All right,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: And that's the same thing that's happening with dear. When
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: you're moving and you think you're moving fast, you're moving subtly.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: You're doing that's slow for them. There's they're able they
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: have twice as long to pick it up, if if
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: that makes sense sort of, well, it all comes back
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: to this movie, this idea of like all they care about,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: their whole eye, their whole all, their whole brain is
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: wired simply to pick up motion. That's how they detect predators.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: You and I we don't. We're not made to pick
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: up motion. What we're made to do is discertain objects.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Like I see a person, I look at that person,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: I discern who they are. Dear, don't care out that
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: they just wanted to have a basically scan of their
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: environment and just be able to pick up something that's moving.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: That's what worries them. And given that, it also means
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: that quick motions are jagg emotions. Are you just trying
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: to be more subtle with your movements? That's not subtle
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: to a deer, that's not best to a deer. So
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: if you move, don't be surprised when they paid you. Okay,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: there's gonna maybe be way off here is this is
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: this part of the reason why we figured out how
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: to throw stuff to kill things, because if we just
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: took off after a deer, we're not built for it.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: It's one hunt. It's it's well, if you look all right,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: you want me to go into this, But if you
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: look at like basically our perception, it's all about social
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: interactions with each other and a lot of our stuff,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Like you know, our eyes aren't necessarily just made to
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: be good predators, but also like the social interactions between us,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and so we had to at some point become good
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: at killing them without actually chasing them down and ambushing them,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: because we're nothing compared to prey species that actually is
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: hunted all the time. Has have have has anyone done
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: any studies on so we're talking white tales, and you know,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: we can we can go back through you know, the
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: last a couple hundred thousand years and figure out probably
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: what was the major predators for white tales and why
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: this would evolve. Has anybody done anything like this with
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: like access deer from India and the you know, tigers
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: or any of the other deer subspecies. So they've done
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: it with fallow deer and they're they're they're similar. Um,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: you know, you gotta keep in mind that white Teldia
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: are pretty late evolutionarily, like they're they're one of the
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: more recent kind of additions to deer family. If you
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: look at the more historic ones or even something like fallows,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: you know, it's still ancestrally held that it's all about detecting, detecting, detecting, yep.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: So this this refresh rate and them sort of living
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: in this I don't know it. Maybe it isn't wrong,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: but like compared to how we perceive stuff like a
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: little bit of a SlowMo world where they're, yeah, where
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: they're picking up stuff instantly, you know, we think of
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: it like if you look at it from the perspective
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: of what we're talking about, it's like, Okay, if there's
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: a tiger or a mountain lion or something crouched in
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: the grass and that sucker takes off the earlier detection
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: system you have, the better your chance you have to
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: get away. And now we can take that as hunters
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: and go, okay, well, just if I dumb this down.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: When I'm sitting in my tree stand and that deer's
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: you know, approaching fifty yards away, and I think that
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I'm out of its field of view, and I stand
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: up and that sucker catches me, it's over. I mean,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: it's it's that. It's it's why they jump an arrow,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: you know, like you and I are like, literally, I
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: can't even see that arrow go, and yet they can
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: hear and process that they're in danger and start the
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: duck within the time frame of an arrow getting to
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: him in twenty yards. I mean, just think about that,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: and it's because that is actually happening slower to them.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: And there. You know, that's an interesting example because every buddy,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: we we say, oh, you're duck in the arrow or
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: jump in the string, and all they're doing is just
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: getting away from a perceived threat that they can perceive
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: real fat It's not like they're sitting there thinking an
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: arrow just got shot at me. They heard a noise
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: that alarmed them, and they loaded up their legs to
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: take off, bingo, bingo. It's just instinctual. It's like, Okay,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: I didn't see it, but I heard it. Yeah, And
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: they're hearing isn't much different than ours, so you know,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: it's about identical. So you know, just it's some kind
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: of spark, you know, some sound that doesn't sound natural
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: time to time to haul off. So they're hearing is
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: the same, but they're are you know, similar, but their
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: reaction time is way faster. Yep, that's exactly right. Uh,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: how do hunters use that? Just don't move? Well, it's
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: nothing that hunters don't already know, you know, if you're gonna,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: you know, get above them, right, if you look at
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: how deer basically see their world. They're meant to look
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: kind of down and scan the horizon, uh, straight ahead
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: of them. They're not used to being hunted up. You know,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: you get about about up, you're out of their line
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: of side unless they're lifting their head. If you're gonna move,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: always have something behind you. They have poor depth perception.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: So this is just basic hunter knowledge. One oh one.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Get you know, get your silhouette covered if you're you know,
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: that will help them not see the movement. If you
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: don't have a silhouette, if you're silhouetted at all, be
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: really really tight with your movement. Don't be surprised when
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: they pay you there. It's basically like you hunt for
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: a couple of years and you know everything that I'm saying.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm you know what I'm getting that
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're getting a man. Can we
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the difference between them perceiving movement,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: you know, on the ground around them versus above them,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: because that's that's an important distinct it right, So they
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: are anatomically made to perceive threats on the ground. Okay,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: their biggest predators back in the day were some type
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: of you know, wolf and cougar type, you know, combination, right, uh,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: And so when we think about that, it really comes
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: is no surprise that they have a hard time seeing
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: up above them. And it's not just like they have
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: a hard time seeing it, but actually their vision gets
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: more blurry. If you and I, like look straight ahead
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: of each other, actually on the periphery of our visions
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: quite blurry. And it's the same for deer, right, So
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: they're looking straight ahead, and like as you get further
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: and further higher up in the trees, if you will,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: it's blurry and blurry or so you're able to camouflage
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: in more and more. But again remember that all these
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: nice fine detail camouflage patterns, that nice fine detail that
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: you're talking about doesn't mean crap to a deer that's
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: yards away from you. And already you're blurry. It's all
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: blending of those colors. So you want to you know,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: if you're you're either got some good blobs going on
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: or you don't. At that point, that's where it comes into.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: If you're one solid blob or you don't have a
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: really strong counter player, and that has big differences in
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: that those shapes. Then don't be surprised that that they'll
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: still trigger them to see you because you're even though
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: they they're not made to see you, you're still in
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: their field of view. Um, if you have a couple
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: of decent camel patterns or a bunch of bigger macro blobs,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: if you will, you can get away with a lot. Yeah. So,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: I mean what you're saying and what you alluded to
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: before with people hunters with some experience that definitely understand this.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: When you know, when you get up there and you're
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: in a little tiny tree and you're silhouetted against a
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: bright sky or you know, the sunset or whatever, if
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: even something that had terrible vision would be able to
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: see the movement, they're better one million percent. You know.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: That's that's what they're gonna key in on. It's all
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: about taking the blob I keep saying blob, but you know,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: the figure that is yourself, and either hiding it behind
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: something or moving ever so subtly that you don't cue them.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: But in the end, I can't stress enough the importance
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: of covering your silhouette that will break up the movement
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: pattern because it will basically, can they have poor depth perception,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: it will converge. That tree basically converges with you into
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: one thing. Does that make sense absolutely? I mean I
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: set my stands to be behind the tree and shoot
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: around it. Um yeah. Those those those saddles, you know,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: the saddle harness and all that, they make a really
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: big difference in that. Um. I remember, you know, the
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: first time I ever sat in a in a tower
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: deer hunting, I kept getting pegged by deer. I was like,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: what I'm covered? Why am I getting And I realized
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: real quick I when instinctively, when I got into the
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: tower blind, I had put a bunch of twigs up
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: behind me to like stop my movement. And then well
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: the deer we're used to like seeing nothing there, since
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, now there's a freak them out.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: It's all about keeping with your environment. So I want
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: to ask you about that then, So when you know,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: we we we've talked about how they can see certain
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: colors and what and what what light positions or what
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: light is beneficial to them. We've talked about movement, But
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: what about that, dear, when you know you're you're up
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: in your stand, you don't move. It's not a deer,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: you want to shoot and it's just walking by you
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: feel like it's it's over, and that your stops and
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: looks right up at you and you haven't moved, right.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: That has everything to do with your that you're not
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: blending in with your background because your camera pattern doesn't
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: remember it's almost like a bright yellow color. You've got
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: to remember that all your camera patterns are basically looking
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: at some subtle variation of yellow. When you start to
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: realize that, well, then you're not blending in with your
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: brown tree. In fact, most camera patterns aren't blending in
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: with their surroundings all that. Well, just do you have
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: really shitty vision? Right? So like yeah, at that point,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: it's just they paged you because you're sitting still silhouette
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: against the tree. Well, isn't Is there an element to
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: that of just you know, their their life is condensed
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: to you know, say a square mile as their home range,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: and they know it real, real, well and something new? No, yeah, no,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: I mean anyone that's ever hunted, you know, out about
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: ground blind or something. They'll tell you like it's a yeah,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: like all of a sudden, I know they can't see
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: me yet their snort and old day at that ground blind, like,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: no doubt that there's something unique about it, but they
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: have to be able to pick up that it's something
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: unique about it. Uh. You know, ideally, what a good
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: pattern would do, or a good set would do is
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: you could sit up there and they wouldn't be able
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: to tell if there's something new going on there. So
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: it all comes back to again, like them being able
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: to detect you is the problem, not that you're something new. Yeah,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: that makes sense absolutely, Um, what what about the deer?
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: What what are deer doing? When you get that old
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: doll that comes in and she's she looks up at
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: you and she's ups and does the head bob, what's
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: she doing? So it's like, um, so you got she's
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: actually trying to unsilhouette. You are getting depth perception from
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: her environment. So like, I don't know if you ever
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: see it, but when like squirrels jump trees, they'll move
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: their head a bunch before they jump a tree. And
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: that's squirrels have the same thing as dear. They have
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: a really good field of view because they don't want
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: to get by hawks and everything else. But that means
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: you only get good depth perception when your eyes actually
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: cross over each other. That's why you and I have
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: excellent depth perception. Our field of view on both eyes
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: crosses over for a majority of the view. Dear squirrels,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: most pre animals don't have that. They they'd rather have
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: an expanded field of view, but not a lot of
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: overlap between their two eyes, say a terrible death perception.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: So what they do to get that depth perception instead
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: is roll that image over their eye by moving their head.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: And what they're doing is you're trying to get different
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: images of the same kind of picture, if you will,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: and it enhances some kind of depth perception. So what
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: they're trying to do is see you versus their background.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: They almost they almost have to like build up a
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: map of what they're looking at because of the way
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: they're that's interesting, so in some way, you're in some
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: ways if you want to think of it so simple
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: as like they're trying to make you a three dimensional
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: object from their two dimensional world. But it's not. It's
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: not that simple. But that's really kind of it. I
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: think it was in the study in the in the uh,
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: the original study we were talking about that you did
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: where the blue light gosh, I think this was what
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: what you had written about. When deer spooked and they
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: take off, they flip their tail up and that's a
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: very uh you know, we look at that and that's
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: a white flag going through the woods. But to them,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: that's tied to their blue light sensitivity, right, yeah, So
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: if you look at what they're sensitive to, uh that
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: that tail reflects a ton of blue and so that
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: tail when it goes up is visible even the in
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: the darkest of dark two deer. So yeah, it's a
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: bright white tail to us, but to them, it's probably
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: a bright blue tail or a very like you know
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying, and it's gotta end. And so when
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: they throw it up there, it's an alert at any
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: light condition. So it's reflecting exactly what they're most sensitive to.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: So this what makes me curious about that is a
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: lot of people will take a deer decoy and they'll
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: tie a little you know, paper towel or some kind
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: of white flag to the ears and the tail, but
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: they're probably that's probably not reflecting the same light as
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: a deer's actual tail. Huh, No, no, it's not. I
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: mean you're probably getting away more with you know, dear
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: coming into it because they're curious and it's another dear
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: and there's movement. There's a bunch going on there. But
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: it's not that doesn't necessarily have the same color as
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: a dear tail would to them. What's an X man?
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: So you do this that you've done and you said
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: you've done what four studies on deer vision? Now, yeah,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: we've done four different studies on deer vision looking at
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: their color discrimination, so like things like it's not just
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: like we want to know just how well they can
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: pick out this color of green versus this color of yellow.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Things like that, the movement, the refresh rate, all of that. Um,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: you know, we're working with a bunch. Are some companies
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: actually to deter deer vehicle collisions, like you know, trying
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: to make a headlight that actually you and I see
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: as a normal headlight, but deer can't see. That's that's
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: the main application for a lot of this stuff. And
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: then you know, spreading the word about thinking about how
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: you're actually proceeds its world versus how you perceive its
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: world and why those are so different, and how you
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: should kind of incorporate that into your hunting strategies. The
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: other thing. But the research is basically more or less
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: wrapped up. We know, we've we've gone and been there
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: and done that for almost all of it. So what's next?
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe just professionally, what are you like? Man? I want
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: to know, I want to work on this. So I'm
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: so I've pivoted completely, and I do a lot of
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: work now with I work with Mike Chamberlain and a
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: lot of turkey stuff. I do a lot of duck work,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: and I do a lot of deer management stuff at
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: like broader scales and stuff with like working with state
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: agencies to set regulations and stuff like that. So I've
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: I've had my fill of all the dear physiology stuff,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: and I love to tinker with it, But professionally I'm
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: onto more of the like applied management behaviors and animals
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: type stuff. All right, what what drives you the most nuts?
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: Knowing what you know about dear vision and dear biology,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: what drives you the most nuts that you hear just
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: the average hunters say about dear There's there's there's a
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: couple of things. So, Jill, I'll tell you what the
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: worst thing with the toughest thing as a biologist is
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: the general skepticism that hunters have towards scientists and regulators.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Sometimes that's warranted in in the political world that we
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: live in with decisions that are made, but oftentimes the
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: people that are helping make decisions and inform science got
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: into it for a reason. It's because we're obsessive hunters
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: ourselves now from a dear physiology and all this other stuff,
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: all the science I've done, And what bothers me the
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: most is, uh, two things. When I go out there
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: and I see a state that's the Department Transportation that's
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: spending millions of dollars to put together here to turn
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: stuff that simply won't work. That's frustrating and a waste
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: of money. And then hunters that that basically latch onto
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: a specific brand of clothing that they think the camouflage
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: is somehow superior than another one when it's really all
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: the same. And what you really just want to buy
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: is a quality garment, not necessarily the camel pattern that's
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: behind it. Yeah, you want something that's a you're gonna
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: keep you warm and have a nice way to warmth
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: ratio and allow you to draw your bow and move
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: and stay out there in the cold, and all that
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: good stuff. And we've moved. So you know, there in
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: the last ten years, there's there's several really excellent camouflage
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: brands that I don't care what color they are, what
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: squares and circles they put together, but the quality of
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: their clothing and the comfort that you have in the
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: field is a game changer, and that's what you should
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: be focusing on. So you you I wanted to ask
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: you that you kind of just brought it up there.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: I kind of I kind of wanted to bring this
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: full circle, you know, to ask you if you were
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: keeping deer from getting hit down there in Georgia by
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: cars now or is this this is still I'm guessing
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: a work in progress. Huh. So there's one study that
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: followed up on our study and all right, so you
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: put together a headlight, right, and you say, okay, let's
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: see if this this will work. Let's put together a
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: headlight and uh see if dear, if the lower deer
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: vehicle collisions. Well, the way you do that is you've
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: got to drive a car at deer going fifty five
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: and like, yeah, that's good luck with doing that through
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: uh you know, your approvals. But hey, there's one group
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: that did it and they found they didn't actually change
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: the headlights. They instead did something which was interesting. They
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: took a light and actually showed, reversed it and actually
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: flashed it onto the car so that you and I
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: it wouldn't you wouldn't see the light, but it basically
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: puts a glow of a vehicle around while they were
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: approaching Dear, and they found that a decreased the aralical collision.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: So there's ongoing work there, but it's a slow process
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: anything that you ever want tinkerd not just with the
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: science but the actual you know, it's a federal level
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: regulation of like, let's change headlights. You know that's that's
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: gonna be like a thirty year care year goal. Well sure,
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: I mean there's a ton of money at stake there,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: which you know, I guess could go either way with it.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: But so when you talk about that and you say, okay,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: we're working on like a headlight with certain colors that
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: you know, humans perceived as bright as we need to
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: see them. But Dear don't see that. Why why do
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: you want Dear to not see that light? Oh? Yeah,
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: so it's it's because the deer in the headlight looking
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: is a real thing. So they're so sensitive to light.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: We talked about that, that mirror reflectance and stuff like that.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: They're so sensitive to light at night, right, So, like
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: I said, they're reflecting like like crazy, all of a sudden,
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: too bright or a bright light that's combined literally blinds them.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: It shuts down their photo receptors. It's not like they just, oh,
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: they don't know what's behind the cart. It's that like
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: they don't know what what's behind those lights, that's no doubt.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: But they're literally standing still because they're temporarily blinded. They
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: have no clue what's going on. So if you can
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: get something that they're less sensitive to, you're less likely
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: to blind them. They can then perceive that a car
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: is coming at them sixty mile and get out of
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: the way. It's that simple. Yeah, And and this would
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: be something that would you know, if it worked, would
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: reduce you know, dear vehicle collisions by you know, a
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: certain degree. Right, Like, it's not gonna fix all of them,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: because they're gonna run out under roads, you know more.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: Most of the deer that get hit or I won't
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: say mark, most a proportion of the deer that could
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: hit are simply running bucks that are running around and
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: are just got one thing on their mind. And it's
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: not even a matter of them being blinded. They're gonna
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: run straight into your car anyway. Like, Yeah, it's not
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: the solve all, but it's all about small mitigation efforts,
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: you know. They found that basically the best thing to
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: gear vehicle collisions and simply put up a sign that
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: says drive slow deer crossing, you know, and like flashing
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: in front of people. It's a human it's a human
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: problem more than it is a deer problem oftentimes. But
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: our hope is that this can make a small incremental
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: change to a pretty big problem. Yeah, I mean you
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: you look at the driver awareness is a huge component.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: You know, how close the woods are the cover is
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: to the road, or how much of a ditch you
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: have to see them. There's there's a lot of things
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: going on there. But what an interesting I just think
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: that's a cool opportunity for somebody like you who's who's
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: a die hard bow hunter to suddenly get that professional
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: opportunity to dig into a problem like that that has
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: all these ancillary potential discoveries beyond a pretty admirable goal
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: of keeping people from hitting deer. You know, in general,
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: I've lived the dream ever since I got in this field.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: You know, like I'm an obsessive hunter, and everything I
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: do I won't lie. I related to how I'm hunting
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: and how others are hunting and all that. What to
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: be able to turn some of the information that we're
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: getting and apply it to real world issues that are
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: much bigger than just can I kill a deer more efficiently?
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: It's very very satisfying. It's a it's a good feeling.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: So if you had, if if there was unlimited funding
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: and no real oversight, you're just free. Man, this is
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: this is you just do your thing. What would you
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: study with dear? What what's one thing that you're like, Man,
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: I want to learn this or or you do you
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: feel like we're kind of tapped out on dear? Absolutely?
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: I think I think we're tapped out onto your uh
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: c w D, and questions regarding c w D are
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: going to be ever present and ever important, and how
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: c w D interacts with predation, hunting, all these other
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: things that are killing dear super important to me. The
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: more pressing issue, or what I'm more and more increasingly
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: interested in, is how are we gonna aggregate and use
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: that data to actually make a more robust UH management
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: approach besides just kind of being like, Okay, coyotes killed, dear,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: what does that mean? Should we kill what? Two less?
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Those in the bank limit? That sounds right and just
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: go with it. Instead, it's like, how are we going
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: to integrate all of this science into some kind of
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: holistic management practice that responds to conditions on the ground quickly.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: That's where I think science is gonna head, so that
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: it's transparent, clear and quick to the actual population needs
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: at a local level. That's probably where we're at with
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: dear management. That's by the way, that that was sarcastic
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: about people saying like, oh, yeah, just to let those
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: but more or less you know, no, no, no, I
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: get it. Uh. I mean that is one of the
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: things I was I was just talking to a buddy
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: of mine who's a conservation officer here in Minnesota, and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: so he deals with a wide range of you know, questions,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: and you know, he deals with the d n R
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: as far as their biologists and their science research, and
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: then he deals with the end user, you know, the
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: wide variants of hunters and fishermen out there. And one
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: of the things that we just kind of got to
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: talking about is how easy it is as a hunter
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: to be like, Okay, I look at deer management through
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: my forty acres that I've hunted because my grandpa owns it,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: and that's what I care about. And then you look
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: at you know, just take Minnesota as an example, a
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: state that's pretty big, really diverse habitat wise and human
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: population wise and deer population wise and predator wise, and
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: then you start looking at an animal like the white
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: taille and how there you know, there's a billion dollar
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: industry built around this animal, and it's one of the
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: most interactive species that we have out there. And so
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: as far as like the science around it and what
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: we have to learn, this is a complicated situation because
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: we're so involved with them and they play so well
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: with man in so many different ways. It's not you know,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: it's not quite as simple as an isolated population of
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: some animal, you know, largely unaffected by man. I guess
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: I'd say sure. And and in the dear ecology world,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of it is we're building off things that
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: have already been done for many years. You know, each
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: study is a is a logical step wise progress towards
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: a better knowledge of how deer being affected by multiple processes,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: you know, And back in the day it was like, okay,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: how does this affect here? How does this affect here?
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: And then we started to do how do this end
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: this combined affect here? And now we're like three, four
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: or five layers deep in it. And the whole goal
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: here is, you know, nowadays, in a world of social
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: media and constant information at your fingertips, how do we
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: be as transparent with the science as as possible and
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: how do we be as happidly responding to issues as possible?
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: And that is where I think, dear management, it's already
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: going there. I mean, like, I'm not saying anything new,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying anything surprising, but that's where we're heading.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Is the process getting there might be painful because it
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: takes a lot to get there, but that's where it's
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: got to go. And is that are you? Are you
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: so emphatic about that? Because without you know, support from
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: the hunting population, this is a real this is a bit. Yeah,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: it's all about It's all about I think I told
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: you from the beginning, is or when you said like
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: what bothers me. It's the idea that the hunters don't
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: buy into what we're talking unless. And I grew up
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: in New York, uh On, Pennsylvania. I know what it's
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: like to have you know some I've heard a lot
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: of different people being skeptical about decisions that are made.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: And so to me, I'm only emphatic about it because
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: I know these people. I know the good they're trying
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: to do, and I know where the message get or
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: you can see where the message gets lost. And so
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: to me, the the idea is in a day where
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: data is that can be at your fingertips, I want
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: you to see that data. I want you to understand
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: why we're doing what we're doing. It just makes sense
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: to me. So that's where you give me unlimited money.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: It's it's promoting transparency, it's promoting data collection, and it's
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: promoting sound management. It's not necessarily going to another spot
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: to do a different type of iteration of the dear
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: Vision study. If that makes sense. Yeah, there is. There
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: has historically been a pretty significant disconnect between a lot
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: of state game agencies and the end user and what's
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: really going on there, and that has led to a
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: lot of problems. Yeah, well it comes back to a
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: bunch of different things. Right, one is messaging, but it
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: also comes back to scale of management. You've talked about
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: the guys forty acres, what that gout is forty years
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: and me on my forty acres, what we see is
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: a microcosm of of something that dear biologist isn't imagined for.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: They're imaging at best. You know, a region that's where
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: we all want a head. You know, a lot of
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: states have that already, but theoretically we make that region
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: as small and small as possible so that the two
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: match up. But oftentimes it's so misaligned. You've got somebody
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: that's managing and doing their stuff well and an otherwise
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: pretty desolate landscape for deer, and they have to suffer
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: those consequences, and see what I'm saying, or vice versa,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: somebody's not doing the right thing and a place that's
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: got a pretty liberal season. So in the end, decreasing
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: the scale of our management and responsiveness. It all comes
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: back to sound data collection, And honestly, that is not
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: something that that's every that's something everybody wants, but time, money, effort,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: there's only so much you can possibly do. That's why
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: I say it with an unlimited budget. Part all right, man,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: last question for you here, So as a as a
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: passionate hunter and a and a dear lover and a
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: guy who's involved in the science, what is one thing, Like,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: what's one thing that pops out into your mind that
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: you've learned through your research or somebody else's research that
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: you've been studying up on where you're like, you know what,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: I'm taking that into the field with me, and I'm
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: never going to forget that. How sensitive deer are all
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: animals are to hunting pressure. It's not I used to
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: I used to know like, Okay, well, um, I'll just
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: hunt this spot, my favorite spot with the right wind
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: conditions with this, With this, I can hunt it when
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: when I want. No, there's like a legacy effect of
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: you going in and like and just being in that area. Like,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: I completely changed how I access my properties. I only
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: go in from the edges. I minimize the servants, not
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: just on a good wind, but like I take as
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: few freaking steps as possible, like and because are the
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: science has clearly shown that just like your presence in
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: that area is a tangible thing that deer can pick
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: up on and they'll they'll start to avoid it really quickly.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: And that's probably why so many many bucks are shot
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: during the ruts. They give up that that awareness to
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: chase those around, you know, plus being more active. Well yeah,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: and this is I love that you said that, because
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: we are so I kind of look at this like
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: it's really easy to spend somebody else's money, right, Like
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: it's really easy to be like Jeff Bezos should pay
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: this much in taxes, or he should spend this much
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: or give this much a charity. But we don't look
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: at ourselves the same way. Typically. We do the same
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: thing with hunting pressure, right, like we're always like, oh,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: this asshole came in and he walks around at first
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: and last light and scares him all the way. But
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: we don't think about the thing we can control, which
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: is our pressure in a situation, because we're so biased
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: towards what we want to do. And like you said, well,
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: if I go in here in the winds, right, it's
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: all good. It's it's crazy, like you know, just even
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: with the stuff we do with ducks and turkeys and
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: what we see with deer and just about everything I mean,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: animals respond to hunters, and it's because I now realized
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: you're coming sense like they have to. There's no other
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: animal that they can interact with from eighty yards away
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: and be killed. Yeah, like you know what I'm saying,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: Like they've got to be on it immediately. And so
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: you know, them turning nocturnal, them shifting their patterns, it's immediate,
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: it's quick, it's lasting, and so it completely changes how
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: I approach almost every situation. I I'm very strategic and
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: where I go, I'm very strategic, and how I approach
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: it um strategic. And if I have to leave when
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: things go differently, and I've seen you know, I've harvest
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: more dear, bigger dear because but I think for sure, man, uh,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: such good stuff. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. This.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: This was a blast man. Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: Thanks again. That's it for this week, folks. Be sure
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: to tune in next week for some more white tailed goodness.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: This has been Where to Hunt and I'm your guest host,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: Tony Peterson. As I always, thank you so much for listening,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: and if you're looking for more white tail content, be
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: sure to check out the meat eator dot com slash
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: wired to see a pile of new articles each week
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: by Mark myself and a whole slew of white tail addicts,
• 1:08:57
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• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: channel to view the weekly content we put up m