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From Operator to Owner: Finding Real Freedom in Business · Healthy Happy Wise Wealthy

• Mary Meyer [0:00]: Welcome back to Healthy, Happy, Wise, Wealthy. I have with us today Mike DeJong. He is, um, has owned a bunch of businesses, uh, franchises, and he has written a book that is free on his website called Grow Smart: Your Path to..to Freedom, Mastering Transformation from Operator to Owner. I had to read it. Mary Meyer [0:17]: Um, and Mike, we have a podcast sponsor right now I'm so excited about. This is... I actually owned a, an online store, uh, prior to some of the things I'm doing now, and, uh, they were one of the people that I worked with a lot. So Mindii, M-I-N-D-I-I-I. Mary Meyer [0:31]: An IT company. They are based in India. They make, uh, great websites, apps for people, cloud services, all this kinda thing for business owners that, uh, we need, and nonprofits. Mary Meyer [0:42]: So- Mike DeJong [0:42]: We do need it Mary Meyer [0:43]: ... uh, real- yeah, I'm so excited to have them on. So you have, um... tell us a little bit about, like, your history is in owning franchises and businesses. So tell us a little bit about that. Mike DeJong [0:57]: Yeah. Absolutely. My, my history actually, uh, starts back as a commercial pilot. Mary Meyer [1:03]: Oh, wow. Mike DeJong [1:04]: And then I got ki- I, I, I did that because I had a seventh grade teacher that told me you'd never get a job looking out the window. Um, I proved him wrong. 'Cause that's what you do as a pilot. Mary Meyer [1:14]: Yeah, you do. Mike DeJong [1:15]: Uh, and then, uh, then I went and got an engineering degree and, uh, worked in corporate America for a while and had a bunch of, uh, now I call them jobbies, businesses that I did. You know, maybe people call them side hustles. Mary Meyer [1:26]: Okay. Yeah. Mike DeJong [1:26]: Before about, uh, uh, 12, 13 years ago now, I got into a, a, a real, you know, what, uh, people would call a real business, I think. Um, and started making all of the good decisions and all of the bad decisions that we all do. Mike DeJong [1:40]: Uh, and, uh, that's why I decided I needed to... well, with prodding from a lot of friends and family and coworkers to, uh, to write a book on all those, um, issues so that we could help people to not make the same mistakes, right? How, how we could grow smarter without making all the expensive , expensive mistakes. Mary Meyer [1:59]: Yeah. And, and do you... Nothing Bundt Cakes is, that was a franchise that you have? That's- Mike DeJong [2:05]: That's right. That's right. I've built out four of them and bought a few more that I've, I've turned around from low-performing stores to high-performing stores. I still have one out in, um, Kirkland, Washington, home of Costco, just outside of Seattle. Mary Meyer [2:16]: Oh, nice. Mike DeJong [2:17]: And, uh, planning to build a couple more out there. Mary Meyer [2:20]: That's great. That's great. So okay, so you, so you wrote this book because when you were, you know, working as the owner of Nothing Bundt Cakes, uh, you realized you had bought a job and not a business? Is that the essence of the, the book? Mike DeJong [2:37]: That is absolutely the essence- ... of the book. Right. The, the epiphany moment was on a vacation that, uh, I, I just kinda realized. I'm like, "Oh my goodness, I'm not actually on vacation. I am on the phone and on the computer," um- Mary Meyer [2:52]: Yeah. Well, and I've- Mike DeJong [2:54]: ... and not enjoying myself. Mary Meyer [2:55]: Yeah. And I've, I've worked with several franchise owners in, um, some of the work that I've done, uh, just w- helping with marketing and that kinda thing. So it certainly is. Mary Meyer [3:05]: Like, you, um, it, it does become your life. So what is the transition? Like, how did you find your way into a space where it wasn't owning, owning you, I guess to say? Mike DeJong [3:18]: Yeah. That's, that's a fantastic question. It was an evolution over time. Mary Meyer [3:22]: Okay. Mike DeJong [3:22]: Uh, but it started with, uh, something that I, I knew as an engineer but I hated as a business owner, and that was, uh, building systems. Um, I, I hated when I worked in corporate America the meetings and the processes and the... it just drove me insane because they seemed to be a waste of time. Let's just go do stuff. Uh- Mary Meyer [3:42]: Yeah Mike DeJong [3:42]: ... and then I came to realize as a business operator, 'cause I wasn't an owner yet, that if people don't have a process or a, a system they can't, um, they can't effectively execute on your, your mission or your dream or, or we can't all... you know, you've heard row in the same direction. Uh, so I started putting those in place one at a time. I stopped, um, I stopped answering the phone when people called me. Mike DeJong [4:05]: I found out if you don't answer the phone right away, maybe 10, fif- or 15 minutes later or an hour later, they, they figured it out. Uh- Mary Meyer [4:12]: Okay Mike DeJong [4:12]: ... so I start... I guess I should say I empowered them to come up with their own solutions. Um, and then I- Mary Meyer [4:18]: And this is your team. This is your team- Mike DeJong [4:20]: This is my- Mary Meyer [4:20]: ... like at the store and stuff? Mike DeJong [4:21]: This is my team at the stores at the time. Mike DeJong [4:23]: Okay. Mike DeJong [4:23]: Yeah. I had a couple at the time when I made this realization. Um, and then, uh, I just started stress testing it. So I'd get enough things in place where I'm like, "All right. Now I'm an owner. I'm not an operator anymore. I'm not in here every day. I am an owner." And I'd go on another vacation, and I'd figure out what broke. Mike DeJong [4:40]: And then whatever broke, when I'd come back I'd fix that, put a process in place. Um, and it got to the point where it wasn't me putting the processes in place anymore, it was my team. Mary Meyer [4:49]: Gotcha. Mike DeJong [4:50]: I stopped asking the question, um, which I think a lot of us ask is, or, or statements a lot of us make is I can't find anyone to do things as good as I can, as well as I can, as fast as I can, et cetera. And I started asking two different questions really. It's how could I find someone to do it better than I can, which really changed my thinking when I actually applied it, didn't just say it. Mike DeJong [5:13]: And I started changing my mindset around if I could find someone that'll do it 80, 80% as well or can do 80% of it, how can I fill in that last 20% so I'm not doing the whole thing? And those two switches really made the difference between going from, from a operator to an owner. That and some mindset stuff. Mary Meyer [5:32]: Yeah. That's, that's great. So find someone who can do it better than you can do it, and then find someone who can do it at least 80%? Mike DeJong [5:41]: Right. Mary Meyer [5:41]: As well as you would- Mike DeJong [5:42]: Uh, Dan Martell, I read in, uh, his book, uh, Buy Back Time, um, I think I read that last year. He says, "80% done is 100% effing awesome." And I- ... I read that, I'm like, "Oh man, I've been doing that for years. That's brilliant, Dan. Good, good expression." Mary Meyer [5:56]: That's awesome. That's awesome. So just finding those things. So what are the, some of the things you do to empower the team?To make the decisions. Mary Meyer [6:05]: 'Cause, uh, 'cause what you're saying is, "I want a team that can make the decisions so I'm not the decision-maker" is what I'm hearing. Mike DeJong [6:12]: That's right. Mary Meyer [6:13]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [6:13]: Um- Mary Meyer [6:13]: Okay. Mike DeJong [6:14]: So it started with them having to believe that I believed they could do it. And, uh, we, we all grow up pointing at our brother, our sister, our friend, anyone like, "Not me. It's not me. I didn't, I didn't make that mistake. It's not me. It's not me." And I think we carry that into our business life, and people are afraid to... Mike DeJong [6:33]: Like I d- I- they don't wanna do things, 'cause they're afraid of making a mistake. They're afraid of getting in trouble. And I, I, you know, I told everyone, like, "Yeah, you're gonna... Unless you're malicious, I'm not gonna get after you for a decision you make, whether if, even if it's a bad one. We'll, we'll break those down and figure out how we could do it better collectively, what tools I didn't give you, um, you know, a better decision-making process for whatever that decision happened to be, and we'll move on and we'll both learn from it." And at first it- they didn't, people didn't wanna make decisions. Mike DeJong [7:05]: They kept like, "I think it's this or this, or this, or this, or this." Like, "Well, which one would you do? Great, let's do that." Even though I might be thinking, "That's not the one I would do," as long as it wouldn't do total damage, I'd be like, "Let's do that." 'Cause you want to empower them and not always go, "No, that's the wrong one. You should do this other thing over here." Mary Meyer [7:23]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [7:23]: And honestly, Mary, more times than not I was surprised that their method was actually better than the result I was looking for. Their idea was a better idea, and we got a much better result. And, uh, it turns out I'm not as good at things as I thought I was, and my team was, so. Mary Meyer [7:41]: Well, that's great. That's great though. Mike DeJong [7:43]: But you just had to trust them, and they had to trust you that, that you, you believed in them and you weren't gonna tear their heads off for making a decision. Some of them very expensive decisions, but it, it's a process. Mary Meyer [7:56]: Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, there's a whole world of employees that are looking for a boss and leader who will empower them and, and let them make decisions like that. So I feel like that's... You know, stuff like that is talked about on podcasts, but I don't know that, that, that is very well implemented in the world in general. Mike DeJong [8:15]: No, I, I, I agree with you. I see it in the, in the people I'm coaching. They have a hard time, they have a hard time letting go. Mary Meyer [8:24]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [8:24]: 'Cause of the reasons we talked about a few minutes ago. "No one could do it better than me. No one could do it as fast as me." Et cetera. Mary Meyer [8:32]: Yeah. Well, and I think it's 'cause you got all this information in your head. You know all the stuff. Mike DeJong [8:38]: Right. Mary Meyer [8:39]: Right Mary Meyer [8:39]: ... and anyone you hire isn't gonna have all that stuff in your brain that you know. Mike DeJong [8:43]: No. Mary Meyer [8:44]: So. Mike DeJong [8:44]: But what a lot of us fail to understand is they have different stuff that could be complementary. I, I like to, like, tell people about the three basic types of business leaders, figure out which one you are, and then don't keep hiring you, hire the other people. We all say, "Don't hire people like ourselves." Well, that's easy to say, but what's the process around that? Mike DeJong [9:06]: And, um, the three types are, if you care to hear about them. Mary Meyer [9:11]: No, I was, I was gonna say, please, go, I'm very curious. The three types, what are the three types? Mike DeJong [9:16]: Um, and people call them different things, but we have, uh, the artist, the manager, and the entrepreneur. And everyone can be entrepreneurial, but maybe not an entrepreneur. So, you know, you wanna define the artist, that's someone that loves their craft. Mike DeJong [9:28]: I, in, in... Let's take the bakery example. I've been doing Nothing Bundt Cakes for a while. It's the people that love baking and frosting the cakes, that love talking to the customers, that love the process around the, the artistry around making the cake. It could be the artistry around making a podcast, or the artistry around making a sandwich or whatever, whatever your business is. Mike DeJong [9:50]: Uh, then you have the manager, manager leader. Um, that's your person who likes the processes and the policies and the procedures and figuring out the most efficient way and the most effective way to get things done, and maybe they love Excel and spreadsheets and, and figuring that stuff out. And then you got the, uh, the entrepreneur, and that's the person that's like, "All right, where are we gonna go find the money? Mike DeJong [10:11]: This is our next proc- this is our next place we're going. We're gonna go over here. We're gonna do this. We're gonna do all this broad stroke stuff." And an analogy, I mean, it's, uh, it's, it's March Madness, but this is more of an NBA, uh- Mary Meyer [10:24]: Yeah Mike DeJong [10:24]: ... analogy. You know, your, your, your player, your, your basketball player out on the court would be your artist, your manager leader would be the coach. Mary Meyer [10:33]: Okay. Mike DeJong [10:34]: And your entrepreneur would be the team owner. Mary Meyer [10:37]: Okay. Mike DeJong [10:38]: And the team owner d- or the coach suck at playing basketball at the NBA level. They're not gonna go out there and, you know, make points from the three-point line, et cetera. Your artist, your basketball player probably doesn't have a great idea on how to, uh, manage an entire basketball franchise. You know? Or maybe- Mary Meyer [10:56]: Yeah Mike DeJong [10:56]: ... not a lot of artists become coaches. Like, your, your best NBA players don't go become your best NBA coaches, because, 'cause coaching's a different, a different skill set. So if you could figure out which one of those you are, and then hire for the people around you that you're not, you could really- Mary Meyer [11:12]: Yeah Mike DeJong [11:12]: ... explode your business. Mary Meyer [11:14]: That's a really good example. How does that... Like, I, I love the basketball example, 'cause it makes it really easy to understand. Mary Meyer [11:20]: And I'm, now I'm a little bit trying to go, okay, so if you're a business owner, which one probably are you, do you think? Can you be any of those maybe? Mike DeJong [11:30]: Absolutely any of them. Mary Meyer [11:31]: Okay. Mike DeJong [11:32]: Ab- absolutely, absolutely any of them. And you, you see all of them. And f- for me, like, it to- I used to think, "Uh, I'm a, I'm a manager leader, I'm a manager leader," and when I was really honest with myself and I had, uh, someone else interview me, uh, I realized I was actually an entrepreneur. I like going and finding the opportunities, I like, uh, m- making the, the bigger moves. Mike DeJong [11:55]: But the, the, the SOPs, the policies, the procedures, all the things I talk about to really grow smart and become a successful businessperson, while I could do them, especially with my engineering background, that's not where I get my juice. Mike DeJong [12:10]: So I, I found someone that's really good at that, and then I needed someone to actually lead in- internally. Like, how are we gonna quickly, uh, or more quickly bake cakes, frost cakes, et cetera, in, in the, in the cake example, the bakery example. Mary Meyer [12:27]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [12:27]: And once I filled those holes, we started accelerating in, uh, in sales and growth. Mary Meyer [12:33]: That's fabulous. That's fabulous. Mike DeJong [12:35]: But you just gotta be honest with yourself 'cause y- we're all... I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an owner. Well, yeah, you own the business, and you're entrepreneurial, but you might not be an entrepreneur. You might be an artist. You might be a leader. Mary Meyer [12:49]: Yeah. That's great. And probably you have a little pieces of all of them- Mike DeJong [12:52]: Oh, absolutely Mary Meyer [12:52]: ... if you've gotten that far. Mike DeJong [12:54]: I, I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. But we all have our home. We all have our, our business home, our emotional home, a place we go to when we're, um, under stress. I like to say stress is just the adult word for, uh, uh, scared. Um. Mary Meyer [13:10]: Okay. Mike DeJong [13:11]: Whenever we're scared, we're gonna go to our, our home and we're gonna live there. You know, the manager leaders come, come out with more SOPs, the, uh, the artist is gonna come up with a new cake design, new flavor. The entrepreneur is gonna go open seven more stores even though the first six aren't, uh, aren't performing very well. You know, you can't, you can't grow your way out of, out of, uh, out of problems. Mike DeJong [13:34]: You just magnify the chaos, so. Mary Meyer [13:36]: Yeah. Well, and I do feel like there's a lot of n- you know, schooling and training for different careers and even for artist stuff, but the training probably for people... I feel like I'm entrepreneurial, too. Mary Meyer [13:50]: Too much, uh, probably too much. Mike DeJong [13:53]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [13:54]: Uh, I don't know where the... You know, I feel like we're piece-mealing training on that, um, in a way. Do you feel like that? Mike DeJong [14:02]: Often. Often, yeah. Mary Meyer [14:05]: Yeah. So if someone wants to start, and let's say they're, uh... And I'm gonna see if you, if, if you coa- if... Do you coach people who are like, "I have a craft and I want to build a business around it"? Mike DeJong [14:20]: Uh, so I, I'm gonna start with absolutely. Mary Meyer [14:24]: Okay. Mike DeJong [14:25]: Uh, Alex Hormozi, I think m- this... I heard it from Alex Hormozi, but a lot of people I'm sure said it before him. Mike DeJong [14:31]: The, uh, the riches are in the niches. So- Mary Meyer [14:35]: That makes sense to me, yeah. Mike DeJong [14:36]: So, uh, I say my lane is, uh, helping entrepreneurs in the franchise space- Mary Meyer [14:42]: Okay Mike DeJong [14:42]: ... um, properly scale from, you know, one to two, or maybe they get to two or three and they're underwater, so let's get those two or three fixed and then we'll grow. Mary Meyer [14:50]: Okay. Mike DeJong [14:50]: But I actually find myself, Mary, uh, in, in actual real life, we all, we all have our dream, "This is what I'm gonna do, and this is what I actually do." Uh- Mike DeJong [14:57]: Yeah Mike DeJong [14:57]: ... helping people just like you said. They have a, they have a craft and they, they wanna grow it. Um, you know, right now I find myself coaching, uh, attorneys and, uh, and, and doctors who are, are starting their own practices. Um, some people who, uh, like one of my favorite ones right now, I'm working with a sourdough company out of her, out of her house, and just going from, from zero to, like, you know, a thousand to 10,000 to 100,000. Mike DeJong [15:29]: We have, we have a plan to get her there. Mary Meyer [15:31]: Nice. Mary Meyer [15:32]: I love that. Mike DeJong [15:33]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [15:33]: Well, and, and I ask that question because it just seems like the way the world is going and people are, you know... Mary Meyer [15:39]: I, I mean AI, whatever it might be, that we need to consider any anyone who has that ability or that desire to take a, a thing and, and grow it into a business is probably, uh, should consider it. Mike DeJong [15:55]: Oh, God. Mary Meyer [15:55]: So. Mike DeJong [15:55]: I couldn't agree more. I could not, I could not agree more. I think, I think the disruption in AI is gonna give actually a lot of us, um... It's gonna be painful. Mike DeJong [16:05]: I think it'll be a very painful disruption, but a lot of us will have the opportunity to go and work for ourselves. Mary Meyer [16:11]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [16:12]: And it'll be these micro companies, one to 10, two to 50 people, that'll provide a local... Mike DeJong [16:18]: usually, probably a local service or product or process that... 'Cause as people, we, humans, we all crave connection. Mary Meyer [16:25]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [16:27]: We crave connection. Mary Meyer [16:27]: Oh, we all crave connection, yeah. Mike DeJong [16:29]: Yeah. And AI is not true connection. Mary Meyer [16:32]: No. Mike DeJong [16:32]: You know, some places we want efficiency. Um, we wanna go into a place, order what we wanna order, and get out. You know, Amazon's wonderful for that, but there are still boutiques and other stores for, for men and women that you can go downtown and talk and browse and go with your friends and have that human connection. And you do, you do pay more for it, but you're paying, I don't think, necessarily for the, for the clothing. Mike DeJong [16:57]: You're paying for the experience. Mary Meyer [16:59]: Yeah. That's true. Mike DeJong [17:00]: And I think those, those micro businesses that won't be so micro in the near future are gonna be where the, where the growth happens. Mary Meyer [17:06]: Well, I, I totally agree. You know, I had a... Uh, this is the funniest aside, but I went to, uh, uh, California with a friend, uh, last Friday, and we're wa- we had a little time, so we're walking around, um, you know, a business park. Mary Meyer [17:20]: And there's an Asian, little Asian market there. And, and I'm, like... I felt like I went to a different part of the world. And, you know, the fish smell was overpowering. Mary Meyer [17:29]: So all these dried fish that are, you know. Mike DeJong [17:31]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [17:31]: But, uh, it was overpowering. And like we walked in, we're like, "What is that smell?" It smelled like 20 wet dogs. Mary Meyer [17:36]: But you get a little used to it, and then you start looking around, and it's so interesting. It's just very... That stuff is, you know, it's very interesting to me. Mary Meyer [17:43]: Uh, and we both bought some stuff and... But I think to, you know... That's just to your point, you know, the small- Mike DeJong [17:50]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [17:50]: And then going out sometimes, I... You know, I had a time just hanging, going into, walking into stores on a Saturday with a friend and, like, making that your day out, you know? Mike DeJong [17:59]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [18:00]: And you feel like you've left town and, and done something interesting just by walking into different stores around town. So y'all go do that. Mike DeJong [18:10]: Yeah. And, and, and humans, humans are gonna wanna do that. I don't think that's ever gonna g- ever gonna go away. We're, we're still tribal. Mike DeJong [18:17]: We still love our villages.Even in the big cities there's neighborhoods. Even in the small cities there's neighborhoods. Mary Meyer [18:22]: Yeah. Yeah. Mike DeJong [18:24]: And, and for, for every trend there's a counter trend. You know, you have Amazon or Walmart or, or Aldi's, very efficient. Get in, get out, get the lowest price. Mike DeJong [18:35]: Um, they, they drop it off at your door. And then you have, uh, an Asian market or a farmers market where you have to talk to five different vendors, you have to pay five different times, you pay more for what you're getting. Mary Meyer [18:47]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [18:47]: It's very inefficient. You could get it done by ordering it online in about seven minutes, but you spend an hour and a half, and you take great joy in that. So the trend might be- Mike DeJong [18:55]: Yeah Mike DeJong [18:55]: ... doing it faster, doing it cheaper, but the counter trend is, is the Asian market and the farmers market, 'cause we still crave that. Mary Meyer [19:01]: Yeah. And that's... You know, we've seen that trend. Like for example, with even like music industry. I, I lived in Nashville for a long time, so you know, when, when some of the income source went away, everyone just went back to touring, and so now you're back to playing live again, and that's what we want anyway I think. Mike DeJong [19:18]: Exactly. Yeah. Mary Meyer [19:19]: Um, some of those trends. So I've, I've been wanting to have someone on who knows stuff about franchises and buying franchises and growing franchises. Mary Meyer [19:28]: So why would someone, if they're not... You know, if they're looking at, "I need to, to find another way to make money," uh, why would someone choose a franchise? Mike DeJong [19:38]: Well, I, I could tell you why I chose one originally. Mary Meyer [19:41]: Okay. Mike DeJong [19:41]: And, and that was, um, I jokingly say I wanted a business with training wheels. Mary Meyer [19:47]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [19:48]: And that's someone else has figured out a product that works, that people want, and a process they have... Mike DeJong [19:55]: That's what you're buying is the franchise system, the process to deliver that product to the market. Whether it's a, a Bundt cake, or an exercise idea, or, or a sandwich shop, or... I mean, there's, there's tens of thousands of franchises out there. Um, so you're buying the process- Mary Meyer [20:12]: Yeah Mike DeJong [20:12]: ... uh, which really helps. Now, is that the whole thing? No, I think a lot of us get into a franchise and realize we don't understand HR and legal and, uh, a bunch of other things. But we don't have to spend time figuring out the market and the product and the, and the marketing necessarily if we go with the right franchise. So I think that's a huge benefit to getting into a franchise to start out. Mary Meyer [20:35]: Yeah. And my understanding of a franchise... I did have on the podcast one franchise owner, Michael Hataway with Game Day Men's Health. Uh, he was on. So that's a franchise owner that I've had on, and I've asked a couple others to come on too, 'cause I do think it's, it's a, it's a pretty cool thing, you know? When you got the logo's done, the sign is done, the- Mike DeJong [20:55]: Yeah Mary Meyer [20:55]: ... the layout's done, you kinda... You, you know what's gonna happen. It's, it's a, uh... The branding, all that kinda stuff is done. And my understanding is you pay a fee to start it, and then you, uh, pay some monthly fees to... because of that. Is that... And so you... Mary Meyer [21:13]: There's an investment. I'm, I'm... What I'm saying is you have the m- you need to have the investment money to, to start one. Mike DeJong [21:20]: Yeah, but there's, there's all sorts of different levels to, to get into them. Some of them are a few thousand dollars for your franchise license. Mary Meyer [21:29]: Wow. Mike DeJong [21:29]: Some of them are a few hundred thousand dollars for your franchise license. Uh, so it depends on the franchise. And then some of them, the build-out costs, if it's a brick-and-mortar, can range from, you know, 30, 40, $50,000 to a couple of million mo- or more dollars, depending what, what type of franchise you're getting into. Mike DeJong [21:49]: Um, but the SBA is a wonderful thing, the Small Business Administration. Mary Meyer [21:54]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [21:54]: And if, uh, you have about 10% or could raise 10% of that overall cost, sometimes 20, it depends on the loan. There's different, different loans with the SBA. I'm not an SBA expert, uh, although I have used them successfully. Mike DeJong [22:10]: Um, you can, you can get yourself into a, a franchise, uh- Mary Meyer [22:16]: That's- Mike DeJong [22:16]: ... with... You don't need to have the full amount of money. Uh, matter of fact, a mistake I made on my first one is I 100% self-financed it. And I took all of the money out of my savings and out of my retirement, and I said, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna blow this up." And okay, I did. I, I exited that and I made some money. If I would've left that money i- in retirement accounts over that 10-year period, and simultaneously grew the franchise using a, an SBA loan, I essentially would've doubled my money over that time. Mike DeJong [22:50]: That was some bad investment advice I had early on, so I just wanna throw that out there that I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, but you should, you should look at it real close before you decide. 'Cause I, I, I have an aversion to debt. But, uh, I realized, uh, in, in bus- business debt and personal debt aren't necessarily the same thing. Mary Meyer [23:10]: Yeah. You know, I had another... I keep mentioning people I've had on, but, uh- ... Al Zdenek, uh, was with Cake Club App, he was another one. But that was a mindset shift for me too, because he was talking about, uh, debt being okay. So the whole... And his whole thing is cashflow, so they have the cashflow. Mike DeJong [23:27]: Right. Mary Meyer [23:28]: And I think this is what you're saying is, like, um, but the thing that really stuck with me with I feel like what you're saying, and I'm like ugh, is, uh, people that have no debt, uh, but no, uh, cashflow are very vulnerable. And- Mike DeJong [23:44]: Very, very, very much so, yes. Mary Meyer [23:46]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [23:47]: Yeah. I have a- Mike DeJong [23:48]: And, and- Mike DeJong [23:48]: ... I have a personal story around that. Early on... Not early on, a few years in, uh, I finally had some money in the bank. Mike DeJong [23:56]: Like, I'd been working for years, and we'd been killing it. I, I brought, uh, I brought Nothing Bundt Cakes to Wisconsin, and we opened, um, several years ahead of where we should've for sales. 'Cause of- Mary Meyer [24:07]: Nice Mike DeJong [24:07]: ... 'cause of boots-on-the-ground marketing and getting the word out there. Like, no one knew who we were, but we, we showed them who we were, and we, we... Mike DeJong [24:14]: The, the community embraced us, and that was a, that was a beautiful thing. And I finally had some money in the bank, and I'm likeMan, I have all convertible. Okay, I'm not gonna go buy a Porsche, as much as I, you know, I'm a guy, I kind- of a certain age. Maybe that's what I want. But, uh, was at the dealership looking for a c- a, a Jeep, and also a guy of a certain age. I know I'm falling into all the bad stereotypes. Mary Meyer [24:37]: Funny Mike DeJong [24:38]: ... but, uh, they didn't have what I was looking for, and they had this little tiny Fiat Spider sitting in the corner, and I'm like, "Oh, if I fit in that, I'm gonna buy it." And I did. I had this much room to spare between the head and the- ... you know, when the c- when the top was up. Mary Meyer [24:52]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [24:53]: And I, I bought it, and I was feeling really good, like this is like my I made it car, you know? All 95 horsepower four-cylinder sports car. Uh, yeah. Anyway, um, and then a, a few weeks later, some rather large bills came due, uh, at the same time that payroll was due, and there went all the money in the bank account and then some. Mike DeJong [25:16]: And I'm like, "Oh, crap, I was spending profits. Mike DeJong [25:22]: I wasn't spending cashflow." Mike DeJong [25:27]: Um, and that was a real eye-opener for me on the real difference between profits and cashflow. Like, you can't, you can't spend profits. You can only spend the cash. Mike DeJong [25:36]: So the money might have been sitting in the bank, but it wasn't, it wasn't mine to spend yet. Mary Meyer [25:41]: Gotcha. How do you know when it's a profit and when it's a cashflow as a business owner? Mike DeJong [25:46]: Yeah, I do a rolling, uh, 12-week, um, spreadsheet now. And- Mary Meyer [25:52]: Okay Mike DeJong [25:53]: ... it shows me... Because there's some expenses only happen quarterly or annually, et cetera. And the annual ones I kind of break down into chunks and I put them quarterly or, or monthly or whatever so that they, they're budgeted for. Mike DeJong [26:06]: Um, and money left over at the end of that, plus any CapEx that I know I need to spend, like do I need a new delivery van? Mike DeJong [26:14]: Do I need a new, uh, mixer? Do I need a new whatever? Um, then you could, you could potentially take that out as, as profit. N- not as profit, as, as, as cash. Pardon me. Mary Meyer [26:27]: Okay. Mike DeJong [26:28]: The other, the other thing is you look on your, on your balance sheet and you're like, or your profit and loss statement, and you say, "Wow, look at this. Last year I made $100,000. Mike DeJong [26:37]: Woo-hoo." But you haven't collected it yet. You know, your terms were net 90 or net 120 and your customers haven't paid you. Mike DeJong [26:46]: You don't actually have the cash in the bank. You know? You can't go spend that. You can't go to a, you can't go to the restaurant and say, "Look, I'll just pay you off of this, uh, this money right here. It'll be fine," right? You got to actually have the cash. Mike DeJong [26:59]: So, so that, uh, I implemented that rolling cashflow sheet right after that Fi- the Fiat incident as I call it. And, uh- ... never had, uh, never had a problem again. My whole, my whole business life is me making mistakes that I should know better and then surviving them somehow. Uh, and then that's, you know, that's what I'm trying to teach and, and, uh, coach people on now is don't... Mike DeJong [27:23]: Do as I say, not as I did. Mary Meyer [27:26]: Yeah. Well, that kind of goes back to, I don't know that there's great entrepreneurial training out there, so. Mary Meyer [27:32]: But it, that's, uh, it does, this, but what you're saying does sound like an entrepreneur versus the money manager or a manager, you know? Mike DeJong [27:39]: Right. Yeah, totally. Mary Meyer [27:41]: Because the manager, if, if they're listening right now, would be rolling their eyes. So if you're rolling your eyes right now, then you know what role you are. Mike DeJong [27:49]: So true, Mary. So true. Oh my goodness. Mary Meyer [27:53]: It's so funny. The artist doesn't care about money and the owner's like- Mike DeJong [27:57]: No, really Mary Meyer [27:57]: ... "The manager handles that." Mike DeJong [27:59]: It's like, "Oh, I gotta, I gotta pay the light bill? I'm gonna lose, I'm gonna get kicked out? What? I don't understand." Yeah. Mary Meyer [28:05]: That's, that's awesome. That's awesome. So, so tell me, and, and, um, so Mike has, uh, mikedejon.com. You have this book f- uh, for a free download. Mike DeJong [28:17]: Absolutely free PDF download. Yep. Mary Meyer [28:19]: And this whole, this whole thing's a little new. So you're, you're starting your, the writing. You got a couple books at the editor and, um, I saw you did a TED Talk. Mike DeJong [28:30]: I, I hosted a TED Talk. I didn't give a TED Talk. Mary Meyer [28:33]: You hosted a TED Talk. Okay. Mike DeJong [28:33]: Yeah, I hosted. I had, uh, 13 great speakers from around, uh, around the country and, and really around the world, a couple of them, uh, showed up in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. It's a nice little... maybe not so little, 15,000 people between Milwaukee to Madison, Wisconsin. Beautiful lake country, lot of history there. Dates back to the 1800s. Mike DeJong [28:52]: You know, the railroad barons and stuff used to go there on vacation. But, um- Mike DeJong [28:57]: ... we had them, we had them show up at, uh, the most Wisconsin location you could think of, a brewery. Mary Meyer [29:03]: A brewery. Mike DeJong [29:03]: And we, uh- Mary Meyer [29:05]: I was gonna say, or a cheese making factory. Mike DeJong [29:07]: That would've been the second most Wisconsin, I think- ... thing that you could do. Mike DeJong [29:11]: Uh, and, uh, or maybe the first. Like, it depends who you're talking to. Mary Meyer [29:16]: Right. Mike DeJong [29:17]: And, and we, we had a great day of, uh, of, of just expanding ideas. Mike DeJong [29:22]: It just, um, I think all of us were kind of, myself included, were familiar with TED and TEDx. Mike DeJong [29:28]: And, and TED's like the big show they do once a year. I think this year it's in Vancouver, where they, they bring in the heavy hitter big thinkers. And, and TEDx is a local community-based, uh, idea incubators. Mike DeJong [29:41]: Um, and they're, they're, they're, they're managed in the community. They're organized in the community. They're, they're centered around the community. And I got to participate in one. A friend of mine was giving a TED Talk, a TEDx Talk in, um, Johannesburg, South Africa at the University of South Africa. And I went and I saw this, the whole thing happen. I'm like, "Oh my God, I need to bring that to, to my hometown. Mike DeJong [30:03]: This is just amazing." Mary Meyer [30:05]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [30:05]: And then I did nothing for two years, like most people do who have great ideas. Uh, and then I, I, I, I implemented with, with some help from friends in the community and we put that on, and it was, it was a heck of a, heck of a show. We, we just got our license, uh, two, two days ago to do it again in 2026, so if anyone wants to come to, uh, Oconomowoc, Wisconsin this fall, date to be determined. We're gonna have another wonderful, wonderful group of, uh, 13 to 20 speakers. Mary Meyer [30:31]: Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. We were talking before we started that I had lived in Wisconsin for a while, long time ago. Stoughton, which is not far away. Also Madison. Mike DeJong [30:41]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [30:41]: So got that Wisconsin connection. Uh, but you have, but you have stores all over the place. Mary Meyer [30:47]: So, like, that's, that's not, like, necessarily your base right now. Mike DeJong [30:51]: Right. That's, that's right. I, I, um... Freedom looks different for all of us. Uh, freedom could be... For, for me it was infinite travel, and I'm, I'm living that. I've been a digital nomad for three or four months now. Um, prior to that I spent a couple years in, in Virginia, and my stores were in Wisconsin and Washington State. Mike DeJong [31:12]: And, you know, prior to that, most of my time in, in Wisconsin. A few little diversions here or there, but that's... I kept coming back to Wisconsin 'cause of family and friends and children and, um, all the, all the reasons. But, um, you know, freedom could be I always wanna be there when my kids get home from school. Mike DeJong [31:29]: Uh, freedom could be I, I want, I want this type of car. Mike DeJong [31:34]: Freedom could be I wanna go take a year off and take a sailboat around the world. Like, whatever freedom looks like to you, I think a lot of us become entrepreneurs 'cause we, we want freedom. Mary Meyer [31:44]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [31:45]: We become business owners 'cause we want freedom, and then we... Many people realize they ch- traded their 40-hour-a-week job for, uh, 80 to 100 hours a week and all the stress and all the bills - Mary Meyer [31:57]: Yeah Mike DeJong [31:58]: ... and, and, and less freedom, and less you... Because they're, they're working as an operator. Mary Meyer [32:02]: Right. Mike DeJong [32:02]: And they need to transition to that owner mindset, and then you could have whatever freedom looks like to you for yourself. Mary Meyer [32:09]: Yeah. So I know you mentioned that the first thing you gotta do is hire someone who's not like you in one of those buckets. Uh- Mike DeJong [32:16]: Yes Mary Meyer [32:16]: ... but what el- what else is there? There must be more to kinda make that transition. Mike DeJong [32:21]: Sure. Um, it's constant... Okay, so it's, it's, it's... Mike DeJong [32:26]: Even before you hire the person, uh, you said, Mary, we all have a little bit of all three of those, the artist, the, uh, manager leader, and the entrepreneur in us. So even though you might hate it, you could build an SOP or two. And SOPs don't have to be these long, drawn-out, typed out forms. Mike DeJong [32:43]: Uh, I often say if you, uh... If something has three steps or you do it more than three times in a year, you need an SOP. Mike DeJong [32:50]: Okay, so what's an SOP look like? It could be as simple as using Loom or Descript or your phone, and just holding up and recording yourself doing something. And you don't even have to be formal. You're not doing this for a YouTube audience. You're doing it for yourself or your people. Mike DeJong [33:05]: It's like, "Okay, and then I type this, and then I click here, and then I walk over here and do this other thing. And then if this happens, I do this, and if that happens, I do that." And then you hand that off, just that recording, just to whoever you want to do that task next time. And you say, "Hey, try this out. Um, and if you get stuck, come and tell me." And if I miss something, like you figured out, like, "Oh, I gotta do this step in between," don't just leave that. Mike DeJong [33:30]: Like, just don't just know that you know to do that step, 'cause you might hand this off to someone someday. Mike DeJong [33:34]: Let's put that in. Two to three, maybe four iterations of that, and, and you're done. So you just take a task you're doing already and just record yourself doing it. Don't, don't sit down and, "Oh, I gotta write, I gotta write SOPs today. Oh, my God. Mike DeJong [33:49]: I gotta..." Step one, I, I... You know, making a sandwich is the classic one, right? Okay. Well, you take a piece of bread, you put some butter on it, and maybe a piece of meat, and you got a sandwich. You know, it's gotta be... You don't have to write out, "Go buy bread. Drive home. Put bread in bread box. Mike DeJong [34:06]: Take bread out of bread box. Open tab." "Take piece out of plastic." Like, the gran- the granularity you need in your SOP depends on the business that you're in. Um, I've gone too far in some directions and not far enough in the other. Mike DeJong [34:20]: And, uh, a recent, a recent example is, um, as simple as the bathroom wasn't getting cleaned properly. So we wrote an SOP on how to clean the bathroom, and one of the things in the SOP was, uh, someone left the water running all night. You know, they, they turned it on, cleaned the sink, and left it on. So we said, "Okay, we'll add a line, turn water off." You wouldn't think you need to do that, but we did. Mike DeJong [34:44]: The next day the staff came in and there was no water in the bathroom. And, um, couldn't, they couldn't figure out what was going on. So, uh, you know, if you can't wash your hands, you can't make cakes. So we're shut down. Um, called the plumber, and the water underneath the sink was turned off, not at the faucet. Mary Meyer [35:03]: I saw that coming. Mike DeJong [35:04]: Yeah. I'm, I'm sure you did. I, I didn't at the moment. I, I should have. Mary Meyer [35:07]: I mean, I, I didn't... When you write that in there, yeah, you wouldn't know, but, like... Mike DeJong [35:11]: So then I, I just- Mary Meyer [35:12]: You set it up like it was a good joke, is what you did. Mike DeJong [35:15]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [35:16]: But yeah. Wow. Mike DeJong [35:17]: It was an expensive joke. So then I thought a little bit about that. I'm like, do I say, "Only turn off water on faucet?" Or maybe, maybe I just need someone with a base level of understanding. Mike DeJong [35:29]: Like, I need a little bit higher quality. So it's... it, it depends on your workforce, who you have working for you. Mike DeJong [35:37]: Like, if I were to say, "Mary, I need a podcast on this," you'd be like, "All right." 'Cause you've, you've lived in that space. You understand how to produce a podcast and interview guests, et cetera, et cetera. Mary Meyer [35:48]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [35:49]: If you were to say, "Mike, I need a podcast on this," I'd be like, "Okay, I could probably figure it out. I gotta find a podcast, uh, hosting platform, and I could probably find some guests from some people I know. And, uh, maybe I'll use ChatGPT to get some questions." You ask, uh, someone on the street who's never really listened to podcasts, watched them, et cetera, like, "Go do this podcast," and it's like they would need step-by-step directions on how to do it. Mike DeJong [36:14]: So you have to, like- Mike DeJong [36:15]: Yeah Mike DeJong [36:15]: ... build your SOPs for your actual- Mary Meyer [36:18]: Yeah Mike DeJong [36:19]: ... actual person doing the job. Yeah. Mary Meyer [36:22]: Yeah, and I'm only doing this 'cause I, uh, my friend Erika in Atlanta is the producer, and she just said, "This is how you do it." And she keeps it running. So, uh, sometimes you need a team, you know what I mean? So- Mike DeJong [36:37]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [36:37]: Yeah Mike DeJong [36:38]: Every, every solopreneur actually needs a team. That's so true. Mary Meyer [36:40]: Everyone, yeah. I don't know any, any artist, and I, you know, I'm an, I'm an actor too, and stuff. Like, I don't know any artists that, that even have any idea why they would wanna do an SOP or what it is, what it stands for, what the point is. Mike DeJong [37:00]: Standard, standard operating procedure. Maybe I shouldn't talk in acronyms. It's a, it's a good point. Yeah, you're right though, 'cause why? You just go and do this thing and it's beautiful. Mary Meyer [37:09]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [37:09]: You have this wonderful result. Mary Meyer [37:11]: Yeah. I've always wanted to just kinda take entrepren- artists, entrepreneurs and go, "This is how you make money at this. You know, this is how you, uh, take this and, and make your own money on it." And it's, it's tough. Mary Meyer [37:26]: It's so tough, you know? Uh, it's so tough. Mike DeJong [37:31]: So tough. Mary Meyer [37:33]: I, I mean, it's- Mary Meyer [37:34]: Well- Mary Meyer [37:34]: ... it's tough to get that mindset from artist to owner, you know? To, to take it and, and, um, and so that you're making your own money from, from your craft. Mike DeJong [37:45]: Well, and the epiphany for- Mary Meyer [37:46]: You know? It's- Mike DeJong [37:46]: ... for me in that area is money for a lot of, a lot of people, especially artists, is not the, their driving, their driving focus. Mary Meyer [37:56]: No, but it is- Mike DeJong [37:57]: They, they really, like- Mary Meyer [37:57]: ... what everyone needs, but yeah. Mike DeJong [37:59]: We, we, we all, we all need it so we can keep the lights on and food in our bellies and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And, uh, there should be a base, a base level. So maybe we just need to come at them a different way and say, "All right. It's not so you can, you know, make money from your craft. But how about you could expand your craft or bring your craft to more people, or, um, spread your message more to the world, or have more and interesting things to do crafts with because you can get that cooler piece of equipment, or..." You have to come to them where they're at, not just like, "You need to make more money at this." Mary Meyer [38:31]: Yeah, yeah. Well, just involving, and like, like, I know you were saying, like, you, you've taken on lawyers and doctors and stuff, and these are all d- like, everyone has different languages that they, that they're, that they're good at, that they've been trained at. And so then to add in the, the layers of business on top of that is usually not a thing they have any training in. They have a training in their, what they've been trained in, in, you know, being a lawyer, being a doctor, being a musician, actor, whatever, dancer. Mary Meyer [38:59]: The, you know, there's all this training for stuff like that, being a counselor. Um, there's not training then added on on top of that of now this is how you take this and make your money at it. Um, which of course, as a franchise, some of these things are already laid out, so, um- Mike DeJong [39:16]: Right. And I'm, I'm constantly surprised at how many people are in a franchise system and then don't use the franchise system. Mike DeJong [39:24]: They're like, I'm like- Mary Meyer [39:24]: Like, what, what do you mean? Like, how do, what do they do instead? Mike DeJong [39:27]: So in, in the cake world, the best way to get people to eat your cake is to give them samples of your cake. Um, and I've worked with franchisees in, in the system, they're like, "Well, I'm not giving away free stuff," and, "It doesn't work and people don't know my market," and, "Here's a su- we, I live in a super fitness area. Mike DeJong [39:46]: No one eats cake here." And y- I mean, all the, all the excuses. And I'm like, "All right. Well, let's, let's just go try it for a minute. Let's just, let's just go out and try it." Whatever, whatever it is, whether it's cake or, or exer- what- whatever the thing is that the franchise says to do, let's just go try it. Yeah, I know they're stupid and they're wrong and they don't know what they're talking about. Mike DeJong [40:07]: Let's just go try it so we can prove it, that they're wrong. And then it works because that's how they built their successful franchise system. Mike DeJong [40:17]: Uh, and it's because it goes against what you were saying, Mary. We don't have training in that. We're uncomfortable in it. You know, maybe you need to be an entrepreneur to, uh, wanna go out and do marketing. Mike DeJong [40:30]: Um, and an artist doesn't necessarily wanna do that, so they're uncomfortable. Mary Meyer [40:34]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [40:34]: So they don't do it. Just as a for example. Mary Meyer [40:39]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [40:39]: I could go on forever on examples. Mary Meyer [40:42]: Yeah. I mean, I, I just, like, the level of this is, this is tough. I, I, I, I just wanna, I want to, uh, um, empower people. Anyone who goes, "I have something I think I would like to bring to the world-" Mary Meyer [40:55]: Yeah Mary Meyer [40:55]: ... there's probably some kind of business model that needs to be implemented to do that. Mike DeJong [41:01]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [41:01]: And nothing about it is easy, so I'm not saying it is. But it's possible, 'cause people do it. So- Mike DeJong [41:06]: And, and the first step is just doing it, overcoming that fear. Mary Meyer [41:11]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [41:12]: I have, um- Mary Meyer [41:13]: Just start Mike DeJong [41:13]: ... one of my, one of my mentors, uh, uh, Jay Morrison, recently retired US Navy Seal, he's got s- he's, he's one, one of the mindset trainers, um, that I have. Mike DeJong [41:26]: And he, he said this thing to me, uh, last, um, October, November, and it really, like, it kicked me in the gut, and I like to share it with everyone, and Jay said I can. Mary Meyer [41:35]: Okay. Mike DeJong [41:36]: And it's, "Everyone says they want something, but they want nothing more." I wanna go take my whatever to the world, but I'm more comfortable sitting here watching Netflix or watching YouTube videos on how to take something to the world instead of taking that first step, that first uncomfortable step where I might fail and people might see me fail. Mike DeJong [42:01]: And then if I'm seen as a f- that I failed, they're gonna think I'm a failure. And if I'm not a failure, then I'm not enough. And if I'm not enough, I won't be loved. And if I'm not loved, why am I here? Oh my God. And that's, that's the stream that it all always comes down to, I think why a lot of us, myself included, there's things I don't wanna do. And if I'm cleaning my desk, I realize, oh, I'm about to do something that I don't know how to do, therefore I'm stressed or scared to do it. Mary Meyer [42:27]: Cleaning your desk. Mike DeJong [42:28]: Therefore, I must go do it. Mary Meyer [42:33]: Oh my gosh, that's so real. Yeah. No, there's-I, for sure. I just, I, and al- and also I think everyone deals with two things. Mary Meyer [42:43]: Uh, and I talked about this of course with, uh, another podcast guest, Dan Rashon, but we don't feel, we don't feel that we are, uh, enough. Mike DeJong [42:54]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [42:54]: Or we don't feel like we're lovable. We're either not enough or we're not lovable, we're not capable. Mary Meyer [43:00]: We got, we got... And it's just as humans I think we have those same voices in our head. And I like to say that because I think if everyone knows we all have the same voices telling us- Mary Meyer [43:08]: Yeah Mary Meyer [43:08]: ... we can't do stuff, then we understand this is a human condition and, um, you're not alone. Mary Meyer [43:14]: We all hear these- Mike DeJong [43:15]: You're so not alone. You're so not alone Mary Meyer [43:15]: ... we all hear these voices. Mike DeJong [43:18]: No, and, and, and they all come from stories we tell ourselves. U- usually from, I'm gonna air quote this 'cause I hate it, but, "trauma" that happened in our childhood. That trauma might be someone, uh, someone pushed you in the playground once. It could, it could be like, it could be anything. Uh, we, we, we make up stories. 'Cause there's facts. Mike DeJong [43:37]: The facts are what happened. The story is what we make up around the facts. Mary Meyer [43:44]: Right. Mike DeJong [43:44]: We, we, we experience the facts, but we live the stories. The, the I'm not good enough, the I can't, I can't get this done. And if we realize our natural state is actually joy, we are all born joyful. I think we're all born happy. Okay, yeah, we come out crying, but that's 'cause there was a change of environment went from warm and cozy to cold and what the heck's going on. Mike DeJong [44:07]: But, um, you know, right after that we're pretty, we're pretty joyful. And if we can remember that, we could write our own stories. And I know it sounds like, oh yeah, super simple, but it just takes, it takes practice. Um, one of the one I keep practicing at is when I get cut off on the freeway. Mike DeJong [44:25]: Like most of us would be like, "Oh, you crazy fill in the blank," you know, censor, censor, cut me off, dangerous, et cetera. What's, what's so important about where you need to be, and I been training myself to say, "Oh my goodness, make it to the hospital on time so you could be there when your loved one passes." Mary Meyer [44:44]: Oh. Mike DeJong [44:45]: 'Cause if that's the story- Mary Meyer [44:47]: Oh, yeah Mike DeJong [44:47]: ... that's, that changes your whole mindset about how you feel about that incident. Mary Meyer [44:51]: Yeah, true. True. Mike DeJong [44:52]: Or if someone tells you something negative, well, one, do you really care what that person thinks? All of us seem to care what everyone thinks, and maybe we shouldn't. Um- Mary Meyer [45:02]: Sure Mike DeJong [45:02]: ... and two, is there some feedback in there? Are they telling me something I really should work on? A- and three, how can I learn from this? As opposed to like, I'm not fill in the blank, you're wrong, fill in the blank. Mike DeJong [45:14]: It's all through our lens. The fact is they said it. The story is how we feel about it. Mary Meyer [45:20]: Right. Mike DeJong [45:21]: So change how you feel about it. I know, sounds simple, but you just gotta practice. I still, we all have to practice. Mike DeJong [45:26]: The best in the world all have to practice. Mary Meyer [45:29]: Right. Well, and this is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say I don't, I usually don't like going and, and reference other... I think I might start though because like when things, when people start saying the same thing, wise people start saying the same thing, I'm like, there's something to this that we're not doing. Mary Meyer [45:42]: We're, we're talking about it. Mike DeJong [45:44]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [45:44]: We're not doing it, but this is a Dan Rashon. He, he um, he said, um, which is, it's not, that podcast not even out yet. It's about to come out. It'll be out by the time yours comes out. Uh, but i- in between your first thought, which is I suck, I'm not good enough, to your second thought is where you make the de- is where you, you change that to- Mike DeJong [46:06]: Yeah Mary Meyer [46:06]: ... uh, that didn't work out, but I'm on a learning curve, um, you know? Uh- Mike DeJong [46:14]: Yeah Mary Meyer [46:14]: ... just because they think this doesn't make it true, that, you know, whatever it is. But you, you, you make the decision between the first thought and the second thought to go, I now am gonna stop doing that. Mary Meyer [46:26]: Um, yeah. Mike DeJong [46:27]: Yeah. And some of it's biology. Mary Meyer [46:28]: Um, and Lori, Lori Rogers, she said, she was saying the same thing. So these are recent guests I've had on. So there's, that's, that seems to be where the, that seems to be where we're, we need to be. Mike DeJong [46:39]: The, uh, consensus- Mary Meyer [46:41]: Is in there Mike DeJong [46:41]: ... rules, yeah. Mary Meyer [46:42]: Is in here. Mike DeJong [46:43]: And, and some of it is absolutely based in biology. There's a fraction of a second before we have a conscious thought that our subconscious says, "Duck" if a ball's coming our way. Mike DeJong [46:53]: You know? We're, our brains are wired for survival first. Mary Meyer [46:56]: Sure. Mike DeJong [46:57]: So it's just, it's just the retraining. Like, if, if, we'll go back to the getting cut off in traffic. If, if your brain is wired like, "That person tried to kill me, I need to duck," you're always gonna come up with the, the angry reaction. But over time if you still have the I got cut off, I'm about to die, but you've trained that other piece. So you have, you, you really have to overcome the biology, that's why it's so hard. Mary Meyer [47:20]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [47:21]: 'Cause we're, we're, we're, we're wired for preservation. Mary Meyer [47:25]: Sure. And we're also, I think we're just also like we're, we're looking for evidence of both. So let's say we're lovable. You'll look for evidence that you're lovable by how, uh, people who should love you treat you. Mike DeJong [47:37]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [47:37]: Which they don't always treat, they don't all treat you well. And then you can look for evidence that you're lovable by people who do treat you well, and um, it, you know, like, the I'm, I'm lovable. Or that you give love. Mike DeJong [47:50]: Yes. Mary Meyer [47:50]: You know? Like are you someone who gives love to people? Do you give them kindness? Do you give them consideration? Mary Meyer [47:55]: Um, you know, do you give them second chances when they deserve it? Do you... You know what I mean? Do you, do you put good out? You're lovable. Mary Meyer [48:04]: So. Mike DeJong [48:04]: Right. Well, and, and the, the, the spin that question back a little bit though, Mary, is you accept love in the same, usually in the same way that you give it. Mary Meyer [48:12]: Sure. Mike DeJong [48:12]: So someone could love you and be lovable towards you, and you don't recognize it as such, and you think, "Why is that person doing this?" Mary Meyer [48:20]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [48:21]: And you could be giving love to someone- Mary Meyer [48:22]: Right Mike DeJong [48:22]: ... not in a way that they know how to receive it. Mary Meyer [48:24]: Yeah. Yeah. Mike DeJong [48:25]: So they think badly of you. I know, I just blew people's minds. They're like, "Crap, I just wanna be lovable. Mike DeJong [48:31]: How come I have to keep..." Um, yeah. Mary Meyer [48:34]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [48:35]: The example there is, you know, anyone that has more than one child. Mary Meyer [48:39]: Right. Mike DeJong [48:39]: Or sometimes even just one. You know, you, you usually have one that's kind of like you-And one or two or three that aren't. Mike DeJong [48:46]: And which one's the easy one? Mary Meyer [48:47]: Sure. Mike DeJong [48:47]: The one that's kind of like you. And which one's the harder ones? The ones that not. So, uh... Mary Meyer [48:54]: Yeah. Yeah. Mike DeJong [48:55]: Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that- Mary Meyer [48:56]: For sure Mike DeJong [48:56]: ... child, they're just, they just accept love or, or, or have different ideas about what that looks like. Mary Meyer [49:02]: Yeah. And sometimes a child who's different than you just doesn't feel lovable 'cause they're different than you, versus the fact that it's great that you're different. This is how you're supposed to be. Mike DeJong [49:12]: Exactly, yes. Mary Meyer [49:14]: So. Mike DeJong [49:15]: It's a society- Mary Meyer [49:15]: Yeah, and I- Mike DeJong [49:15]: ... we can all be the same. Oh, how boring would that be? Mary Meyer [49:19]: Yeah. But, you know, I think, and I'm, what I am hearing you say too, it's not just on this topic, but like there's different... We- we're made differently. Like, you know, you said that the three different things you gotta find for your business, the artist, the manager, and the owner. And there's different learning styles. Mary Meyer [49:37]: There's different ways of communicating so people hear it. I just took a little test that talked about are you a visual learner, auditory, uh- Mary Meyer [49:44]: ... kinesthetic, or... Oh, and there's another one, but one is global. Mary Meyer [49:49]: You know? Do you just, do you, you know, do you- Mike DeJong [49:52]: Yeah Mary Meyer [49:52]: ... do you read it? Do you have to write it? Do you have to touch it? Do you have to hear it? And then some people, like, I'm a, I'm a global. I have to, I kinda do all of them. Uh, but you know, like there's, we, we operate differently, and we hear things differently. So, um, and I mean, you know, just i- if that was a question, like how do you think that plays into being a business owner or franchise owner? Mike DeJong [50:16]: Yeah. Yeah, that's, ooh. Um, the whole, the whole way we communicate, right? So, uh, that took me years to learn, and I'm still, I'm still practicing, um, on, on how to communicate in people, the way people want. And I actually started, uh, a couple years ago asking them. Basically, do you prefer a video? Mike DeJong [50:39]: Do you want it written down? Do you want me just to tell you? Do you need all of the above? Mike DeJong [50:44]: Um, short stuff, you're just gonna blurb it out, and people just will adapt. Mike DeJong [50:49]: But for, for longer, longer form training, um, you gotta give it to them in the, in the way they, they want it. And you have to ask them. Sometimes they don't know, so then give it to them in all three and ask them, or four. Three? Mike DeJong [51:02]: I know the one you're talking about. I, well, the way I do it is I'll write it down, I'll tell them, or I'll have a video. So which one of those works for you? If there's another way, uh, I'm, I'm missing it, and I have, I have some, some growth opportunity there. Um, but I, at the same time- Mary Meyer [51:17]: Well, the other one is just making it. You know? Like, go make, go make the cake. Let's go do it. You know? Mike DeJong [51:21]: Oh, yeah, yeah. Mary Meyer [51:23]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [51:23]: Just d- just doing it. Mary Meyer [51:24]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [51:24]: But they usually need a little bit of direction before you just go do something. Not always. Mary Meyer [51:28]: Right. Mike DeJong [51:29]: Um- Mary Meyer [51:29]: For sure Mike DeJong [51:30]: ... not always. There's, there's interesting studies when you have, um, uh, children perform a task with like a certain basic materials versus you have a, you know, leadership teams in a business perform a task. Mike DeJong [51:43]: The, the results are dramatically different, um, 'cause you don't have all these conceived notions things supposed to, supposed to go, that, uh, I just find fascinating when I look at, look at those. And you could teach people. There's games we could use. Mike DeJong [51:58]: Uh, maybe you've been through some of them. You, you give people a bunch of, uh, long, uh, pencils or pretzels or something, and you have them sit back to back, and you make a shape. One person makes a shape out of the pretzels, and the other person has them all rough, and the person who made the shape has to give directions to the person that can't see how to turn that into their, that shape into their pretzels. Mike DeJong [52:19]: Like, take one pretzel and stick another one at a 90-degree angle, up and down, left and right, and then do this other thing, and do this other task. Mike DeJong [52:28]: And, and al- you should have the shape. Yep, and then they look, compare the shapes, and they rarely look like the, the same thing 'cause the communication's just, just not there. Mary Meyer [52:39]: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to communicate. Mike DeJong [52:42]: And it's, and it's just a good eye-opener that, for people to understand that it is... That's something we all talk about. I, I've been hearing that my entire adult life. Communication is key. Relationships, business, you know, friendships. Communication, communication, communication. But what does that look like? Yeah. Mary Meyer [52:59]: Yeah, for sure. Well, and usually as a leader, you communicate naturally in the style that you like to learn from. Mary Meyer [53:08]: So just like everything else, I think that part of leadership is just 'cause that's you doesn't mean that's everyone else, and doesn't mean they're stupid if they don't have- Mary Meyer [53:18]: No Mary Meyer [53:18]: ... the same style as you. Mike DeJong [53:20]: They don't have the same style, or they, they have a different, um, level of training or, or understanding in an area. Mary Meyer [53:27]: Yeah. Yeah. But for sure- Mike DeJong [53:29]: And by the- Mary Meyer [53:29]: ... we can say they don't wanna be yelled at, so... Mike DeJong [53:33]: I had a recent incident, I- Mary Meyer [53:34]: Sometimes Mike DeJong [53:35]: ... had a manager, I wanted her to go do something, and she's like, "Yep." And then it never got done, and that, dialing in, it came down to she had no idea where to start. Mary Meyer [53:44]: Oh. Mike DeJong [53:46]: Versus a different manager who I gave the same task to at a different location, you know, c- completed it, 'cause there were just different levels. Or, or motivators. Mike DeJong [53:55]: This part is part of communication. I think many of us fall into the trap of we're gonna give a bonus. Mike DeJong [54:01]: Here's some cash. Whether it's a, you know, micro, we hit our daily goal, everyone gets free lunch or $5, or, or quarterly or monthly, or whatever. You, you make so many sales. There's, there's a lot, there's as many bonus programs a- as there are, like, probably atoms in the, in the universe. Mike DeJong [54:17]: But that might not be the motivator. I had one manager that's worked for me for about nine years. Mike DeJong [54:22]: Her motivator is she wants Thursday afternoons off to go work at an animal shelter. Mary Meyer [54:26]: Okay. Mike DeJong [54:27]: And if she could have her Thursday afternoons off to go work at her m- her animal shelter, that fills her up, and she'll kill herself at working for me, which I'm always like, "Slow down." You know, like, "Please, like just take, take a minute." She's one of those people. But, but, uh, money had no motivation for her. A, a p- past a base level that she needed to survive, she really didn't care at all about it. Mike DeJong [54:51]: Like, at all.Other ones were, um, towards their favorite charity, or maybe it was time off. Like, "I just wanna have a day off whenever I want. It could be any day of the week at any time with no notice. That's what I want as my bonus. If I just need it, I just want it." And I give people, from, like, almost day one, a certain amount of days off, 'cause I think we just need that as humans. Mary Meyer [55:13]: Right. Mike DeJong [55:13]: But, um, I know you can't always in a small business. It's very disruptive. But for certain people, that was... that's what they needed. "Okay, that's your motiv- That's, that's, that's your bonus. Here's, here's your ticket for, for a free day off." Uh, it's just communicating with them and finding out what their motivators are. Mary Meyer [55:31]: Yeah. I love that. Well, and you have so much wisdom, just lived experience in the stuff you've built. And, and, you know, mis- the mistakes, uh, are a part of the learning and part of the wisdom. Mike DeJong [55:43]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [55:43]: The whole... Uh, so you, you coach people, and you're writing some books, and do keynotes now also along with the businesses. So if someone wants to work with you and get coaching, and it sounds like coaching to start or coaching to take the franchise and stop being an operator and more of an owner, like, how do they, how do they reach you to do that? Mike DeJong [56:03]: Sure. Just, uh, mikedejong.com. That's D-E-J-O-N-G. Not everyone can spell my last name, I realized. Mary Meyer [56:10]: Yeah Mike DeJong [56:10]: ... there's a form on there, just contact Mike. Uh, it, there... It is not a sales call. I wanna be very clear, Mary, for you and your listeners that when I have that first conversation with you, I'm literally just trying to help you. Mike DeJong [56:20]: And I got all sorts of resources, like the book, that are absolutely free. My mission in life is, is two-fold, is I wanna help the entrepreneurs to, uh, not make all the mistakes I did so they can transition from being a, an operator to an actual pure owner, whatever that looks like for them, to have the freedom and whatever that looks like for them. Mary Meyer [56:39]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [56:40]: And, and my secondary mission, like, where I like to spend my time and money now, is, uh, putting homeless people in houses. Mary Meyer [56:47]: Oh. Mike DeJong [56:48]: So spend some, spend some time there too. Uh, just, just starting out in that, so I don't, I don't have a lot of wisdom there. But, uh, my brother u- Actually, you know, my brother's a world-renowned expert on it, so I've been tapping into his- Mary Meyer [57:02]: Oh, really? Mike DeJong [57:02]: ... his knowledge. Yeah. Mary Meyer [57:04]: Well, that's great. Well, you have someone to, to lean into to make it happen, so. Mike DeJong [57:08]: Yeah. He wore me out o- over the years with his actual practical knowledges as opposed to all the myths we think we know about, about homelessness. Mary Meyer [57:16]: Yeah. Uh, well, and you know, I'm in Reno, Nevada right now, and it's, uh... I feel like we, we have a huge homeless population, and I think maybe we're getting some from California too. But my son, who's here, is very much, has been very much involved with that, so a lot of great nonprofits collaborating here that are, you know, and government, uh, nonprofits, government. Mary Meyer [57:40]: There's just so much collaboration, so. Mike DeJong [57:43]: That's- Mary Meyer [57:43]: But it's, it's a, it's very complex. It's complex. And, um- Mike DeJong [57:47]: Yeah. I... It, it is and it isn't. At the end of the day, everyone needs a home, somewhere to live, someone to love, and something to do. Mary Meyer [57:55]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [57:55]: As, as all humans, that's, that's what we need. Whether you're in Reno, a previous home to the Reno Air Races- ... world's fastest motorsport, used to love coming out to watch those. Or, uh, or Oconomowoc, Wisconsin, or where I'm sitting right now in Galveston, Texas, that's... We're all humans, and that's what we all need. Mary Meyer [58:12]: Yeah. Well, that's very true. We all just... Humans have, have obviously just the basic human needs, and we all should have access to those. So for sure. Mike DeJong [58:23]: 100%. Mary Meyer [58:24]: Yeah. So, uh, Mike, you have a couple other books coming out, but, and eventually this, this, uh, one you have right now, it's a free download, and you might get it on, on Amazon too. So Grow Smart: Your Path to Freedom: Mastering Transformation from Operator to Owner. Mike DeJong [58:40]: That's, that's the one we got out right now. Mary Meyer [58:43]: Okay. Mike DeJong [58:43]: Getting it... And then I have another one, The Freedom Formula, I have to read it myself, How to Fix or Exit Your Franchise for Maximum Profit. Um, the feedback I had in the first book, and even though it's very tactical, not, it's not a feelgood book, it's a tactical book, people wanted more tactics- Mary Meyer [58:58]: Okay Mike DeJong [58:58]: ... more specific examples. So I, I wrote that. Um, I actually wrote that one on the beaches of Australia, which was a lot of fun, last year. Mike DeJong [59:05]: Um- Mary Meyer [59:05]: Yeah, that sounds like a great place to write. Mike DeJong [59:08]: It was. It was, it was a lot of fun. Mary Meyer [59:10]: Nice. Mike DeJong [59:10]: Uh, a- and then, uh, the most recent one is not titled yet, but it's around, um, running a successful f- um, fundraiser because, again, a lot of franchisees bring in business through fra- through fundraising, uh, through their local org, uh, community organizations, and they had no basic understanding on how to do that or why to do that. Mike DeJong [59:31]: So, um, I realized I did that very well, so I wrote another book, and that one's, that one's with the editor as of, uh, two weeks ago, so. Mary Meyer [59:39]: Yeah. That's awesome. Mike DeJong [59:40]: And then I gotta figure out a name, so if anyone has any suggestions, I'll, uh, I'll take those. Mary Meyer [59:45]: That's great. So you, you got a lot of good things going. And Mike, thanks for sharing your wisdom with that. And, um, and if anyone wants, uh, to get your book, it's free on your website, so, uh, you know, thanks for giving stuff for free. People need that. Mike DeJong [60:01]: Thanks for- Mary Meyer [60:01]: I'm gonna go do it. I'm gonna go download it now. I, I don't think I realized it was for free when I looked at the website, so. Mike DeJong [60:07]: See, I have, I have some opportunities. Uh, I still get stuck in engineering brain, not marketing brain, so I have to, uh, you know, fluff things up and let people know what I'm all about. Mary Meyer [60:16]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [60:16]: So I'm talking to you today, Mary, 'cause I wanna help more people. Mary Meyer [60:19]: Yes, for sure. Mike DeJong [60:20]: Really, really help people. Mary Meyer [60:21]: Well, in mark- Mike DeJong [60:21]: Yep. Mary Meyer [60:22]: Yeah, and marketing isn't easy either, so there's all these different buckets. It's so tough to understand all of them. But yeah, I've spent the last couple years in, uh, in marketing and realizing that marketing means about a billion different things. Um- Mike DeJong [60:35]: And a billion different times, right. Mary Meyer [60:37]: Yeah. And so people say they're in marketing. I, I have people s- you know, friends go, "Yeah, I'm in marketing, and bra- marketing and branding," and they were doing not anything that I was doing, so we were like... Mary Meyer [60:47]: But, um, the nice thing about a franchise is, you know, some of that marketing is already figured out, and some of the branding's already figured out. But- Mike DeJong [60:55]: Yeah, it really- Mike DeJong [60:55]: Yeah Mike DeJong [60:55]: ... it really does, it really does help, especially the online portion I think, where a lot of people, uh, um-Need help is on the boots on the ground marketing, your local marketing efforts. Mary Meyer [61:04]: Yeah. Right, and like, and I was doing paid mar- I'm not doing it right now, but paid marketing, so, you know, how do you get it out with commercials, and I help people make commercials and that kind of thing. So all- Mike DeJong [61:15]: Yeah Mary Meyer [61:15]: ... of that makes a difference. Mike DeJong [61:16]: It, it does Mary Meyer [61:16]: You know, making money. Mike DeJong [61:18]: It does. Mary Meyer [61:18]: Everything we talked about to so many different buckets, so which is why it's nice to have that whole team of smart people around you to manage- Mike DeJong [61:27]: Right Mary Meyer [61:27]: ... the things. Mike DeJong [61:28]: But if you don't have that, just start. Mary Meyer [61:31]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [61:31]: Just start. You got an idea? Just go do it. Mary Meyer [61:34]: Yeah. Yeah. And, and start... I d- I do think also it's like, um, if, if you have money, it's easy to just throw money at it without knowing if it's gonna work or not, so maybe, uh, start small enough to know if you have something that's viable, that's gonna work and make some sales. Get some- Mike DeJong [61:52]: Right Mary Meyer [61:53]: ... people in, and, and go from that. Mike DeJong [61:55]: Oh, we could go on for an hour about that again, too. Yeah. It's... I see too often people spend a lot of time on, "These are my brand colors. This is my logo," and they've never sold anything. Mike DeJong [62:05]: The, the product that they wanna sell yet. Mary Meyer [62:07]: Mm. Mike DeJong [62:07]: Like, how about you go sell a few things, prove that it works in the market, and then we'll get you some brand colors and a logo. Mary Meyer [62:14]: Yeah. Well, and I feel like I've made that mistake a little bit, too. It's like, you know- Mike DeJong [62:19]: We all have Mary Meyer [62:19]: ... first, first, first make sure it's making money, and then, and then put more time and effort behind it. Mike DeJong [62:24]: Right. Mary Meyer [62:24]: So you gotta make sure it's viable. Mike DeJong [62:27]: 100%. Mary Meyer [62:27]: And that's tough. Mike DeJong [62:28]: 100%. Mary Meyer [62:29]: It's all tough, Mike. It's just, it's hard. Mike DeJong [62:32]: It's all, it's all simple, but incredibly difficult. I'll, I can't remember whose quote this is. I really gotta look it up. All business is innovation and marketing. Mary Meyer [62:43]: All business innovation is marketing? Mike DeJong [62:45]: All, all business is, is innovation and marketing. It's two things. Mary Meyer [62:49]: Okay. Mike DeJong [62:49]: You gotta innovate a new idea, and you gotta let people know it exists. Mary Meyer [62:52]: Yeah. That's, uh, that's very simple and very profound, so. Mike DeJong [62:58]: And I wish it was my quote. I stole it, but, uh, but it's true. I mean, it doesn't matter what business is. Mike DeJong [63:04]: All business is you gotta let people... You have to have an idea of what you do, and you gotta let people know you're doing it. Mary Meyer [63:09]: Yeah. That's true. Mike DeJong [63:11]: So just go do it. Just go. Do it. Mary Meyer [63:14]: Yeah. Mike DeJong [63:16]: Especially with the tools we have today. Mary Meyer [63:19]: I tell you, I started this- I started this podcast on the, like, I don't know what I'm doing, and I don't have time to do this, and I'm not gon- I don't even know how to, how to... Well, I kinda had someone help me start, and then I'm like, "Well, we're just starting." I know it's not all... I still don't have the website together. I still have, uh, Mindy's helping me get that together right now, the- ... podcast sponsor. But, you know, it's like, again, and this was last April we started, so we're gonna hit it about a year before we even have a website up. Mike DeJong [63:45]: Oh, Mary. Mary Meyer [63:46]: We can start. Mike DeJong [63:46]: It hurts me. I could build you a website, not as good as you're gonna get from Mindy, but adequate to start to prove your concept in about 10 minutes on a, uh, an app called lovable.dev. Mary Meyer [63:56]: Yeah. Well, and, and for podcasts, you know, the, uh, some things you have to have a website to start, and I, and I actually, I'm pretty... 'Cause I had a website business, so I'm pretty good with understanding websites. Mike DeJong [64:08]: Great. Mary Meyer [64:08]: Uh, and actually have helped business owners go, "Okay, um, this is not something that I can help you market 'cause it's not there yet." So we need, we need X, Y, and Z. Uh- Mike DeJong [64:20]: Yeah, right Mary Meyer [64:21]: ... privacy policy. If you don't have a privacy policy on your website, then it's not gonna- Mike DeJong [64:27]: No Mary Meyer [64:28]: ... Google and Bing will just kick it off, you know? Mike DeJong [64:30]: Right. Mary Meyer [64:30]: It's not worth it. Mike DeJong [64:31]: Can't use, can't use Stripe if you don't have a privacy policy, and, uh, uh, I can't remember what the other policy is, but basically it's how you're gonna use their information. Mike DeJong [64:38]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [64:38]: Yeah. Can't use Stripe- Mike DeJong [64:40]: Can't take payments Mary Meyer [64:40]: ... unless you have a website either. Mike DeJong [64:42]: Can't take payments. Mary Meyer [64:44]: Can't take payments. I just worried about that. I'm like- Mike DeJong [64:46]: Can't get paid, darn it. No one has cash these days, so. Mary Meyer [64:49]: When is the website gonna be ready? 'Cause Stripe won't, Stripe isn't gonna let me take a payment without that. Mike DeJong [64:54]: Yeah, right. Exactly. Oh, Mary. Mary Meyer [64:59]: All these things, so that's awesome. Mike, thanks for your time. Um, any parting words for us? Mike DeJong [65:05]: Uh, yes. Yes. Mary Meyer [65:10]: Okay. Mike DeJong [65:10]: One, go start. Two, after you start, optimize before you grow. Get yourself out of the operator chair. Mike DeJong [65:18]: Make sure you can take a several-week vacation, and if you can and nothing breaks, then you're ready to grow to the next business. Mary Meyer [65:25]: Seems like pretty practical advice to me, so all right. Mike DeJong, and just, uh, um, head to his website. Uh, D-E-J-O-N-G is his last name, mikedejong.com. Mike DeJong [65:36]: Okay. Mary Meyer [65:36]: And, uh, get more info from him. So thanks, Mike. I appreciate you. Mike DeJong [65:41]: Thanks, Mary. G- great being on. Great being on.