Latest / Faithful Fitness With Coach Alex VanHouten / Outgrowing Porn: Healing Hearts and Redeeming Sexuality with Drew Boa

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Outgrowing Porn: Healing Hearts and Redeeming Sexuality with Drew Boa · Faithful Fitness With Coach Alex VanHouten

0:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Faithful Fitness Podcast for My Dad. Coach
0:06
Speaker 1: Alex van Houghten helps you get stronger and mind, body,
0:09
Speaker 1: and spirit. He believes that your body is a temple,
0:12
Speaker 1: so taking good care of it is an actual worship.
0:15
Speaker 2: I should know.
0:15
Speaker 3: I live with.
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Speaker 1: Him every week. He brings truth from the Bible too
0:19
Speaker 1: of some science and stories that will set your heart
0:21
Speaker 1: on fire. May God bless you to become everything He
0:24
Speaker 1: made you to be, just one percent better every single day.
0:29
Speaker 2: Hit here, Coach Alex ben Houton here Faithful Fitness Podcast.
0:33
Speaker 2: Our mission is to help you make the most out
0:36
Speaker 2: of the body God's given you. And before we get
0:38
Speaker 2: into this episode, I have a clear disclaimer. In our
0:41
Speaker 2: episode today, we're gonna be talking about the P word.
0:44
Speaker 2: We're gonna be talking about brokenness, we're gonna be talking
0:46
Speaker 2: about healing. That's not child appropriate, So if you have
0:49
Speaker 2: kids with you, let's use some discernment. Press pause and
0:52
Speaker 2: come back to this later. But I don't want you
0:54
Speaker 2: to think this is an episode with shame or guilt.
0:58
Speaker 2: Actually it's quite the opposite. We're going to be catching
1:00
Speaker 2: up with author and founder Drew Boa, who wrote this
1:04
Speaker 2: amazing book and founded husband Material Ministries, and I'm so
1:10
Speaker 2: excited about this conversation because there's so much grace in
1:14
Speaker 2: this book and so much power in his approach to
1:18
Speaker 2: helping this thing that has infiltrated our homes and has
1:22
Speaker 2: quietly taken territory for the enemy in our lives. In fact,
1:26
Speaker 2: Drew works really hard to help to change men's brains,
1:31
Speaker 2: heal their hearts, and save their relationships from damage from
1:36
Speaker 2: the P word. So, if this is a battle that
1:38
Speaker 2: you fought, maybe a friend of yours has fought, or
1:41
Speaker 2: somebody you know is fighting it right now, you need
1:43
Speaker 2: to catch into this episode and you need to share
1:46
Speaker 2: it with them. Let's get into it. What's up, guys.
1:50
Speaker 2: This is coach Alex ben Houten on the Faithful Fitness Podcast.
1:53
Speaker 2: Our mission is to help you make the most out
1:56
Speaker 2: of the body of God's given you, and I am
1:58
Speaker 2: so so excited for our guest today, Drew. I'm about
2:02
Speaker 2: to jump out of my skin. I've had to limit
2:04
Speaker 2: myself to only one cup of coffees so I don't
2:06
Speaker 2: overdo it. In this conversation, I am joined with Drew Boa.
2:10
Speaker 2: How are you doing this morning? Brother?
2:12
Speaker 3: I'm feeling excited and I'm riding on the wave of
2:17
Speaker 3: your energy.
2:19
Speaker 2: I was just blaring, dude, I don't know what kind
2:22
Speaker 2: of music you like to listen to, but I was
2:24
Speaker 2: just blaring the new album from demon Hunter. They came
2:27
Speaker 2: back after not like creating any music for like ten years,
2:30
Speaker 2: and the new album of demon Hunter just dropped, and
2:33
Speaker 2: so I was just doing like flour presses and curls.
2:36
Speaker 2: I was like, man, I'm so excited about this conversation.
2:40
Speaker 2: So I got to ask on that topic. When you
2:42
Speaker 2: work out, because I know you do, what kind of
2:44
Speaker 2: music do you enjoy?
2:47
Speaker 3: I have been getting into music that has the exact
2:52
Speaker 3: beats per minute to match my footsteps. Yeah, it's just
2:56
Speaker 3: so satisfying when the song is keeping my pace. I
3:02
Speaker 3: don't know how I went thirty years without realizing that
3:08
Speaker 3: that music can give me exactly the cadence that I
3:13
Speaker 3: want to have when I'm running.
3:14
Speaker 2: So that the tempo helps, doesn't it, because it kind
3:16
Speaker 2: of puts the whole thing in sync, you know, mind, body, spirit,
3:19
Speaker 2: everything's all in. Are you training for anything specific right now?
3:25
Speaker 3: No? No, just life, just life and exploring. So I
3:32
Speaker 3: live in Colorado Springs and we have so many great
3:36
Speaker 3: trails here, I'm trying to do each one.
3:39
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, you'll never run out of a good place
3:41
Speaker 2: to run there, that's for sure. That's for sure. Well,
3:44
Speaker 2: I want to introduce you to my audience because not
3:46
Speaker 2: everybody knows you, so Drew Boa. Drew Boa is the
3:49
Speaker 2: author of the book we're going to be talking about today,
3:51
Speaker 2: Outgrow Porn. He's also podcaster, founder of Husband Material Ministries,
3:58
Speaker 2: and he's a father. He's husband and something I don't
4:02
Speaker 2: hear very often, which is a certified pastoral sex addiction professional.
4:08
Speaker 2: That's a mouthful, But I'm so grateful for the work
4:11
Speaker 2: that you do, and I have to start this entire
4:13
Speaker 2: podcast with two points of gratitude saying this from the heart.
4:17
Speaker 2: The first is thank you for this book. I'm so
4:21
Speaker 2: excited about this book. I can't wait to talk through
4:23
Speaker 2: it with you in just a second. I can't wait
4:25
Speaker 2: to introduce my audience to just the power in the
4:28
Speaker 2: grace that you've managed to articulate in this book. I
4:32
Speaker 2: firmly believe spirit filled and spirit led a very powerful
4:36
Speaker 2: weapon against the territory that the enemy's taken in the
4:39
Speaker 2: lives of men and women in our world today. So
4:43
Speaker 2: thank you very much. For that. And second, and then
4:45
Speaker 2: I'll shut up anything you'd like to say on that front. Second,
4:49
Speaker 2: I did want to also thank you because this is
4:51
Speaker 2: a good place as any to speak it. Drew was
4:54
Speaker 2: an important part for the audience. Drew was an important
4:57
Speaker 2: part of one of the editorial changes we needed to
5:00
Speaker 2: make to the Faithful Fitness devotional to help me weed
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Speaker 2: out some language that well just wasn't as theologically sound
5:09
Speaker 2: as we wanted it to be. And so I just
5:11
Speaker 2: wanted to say thank you for making our work more robust,
5:14
Speaker 2: and thank you for the work you've done to write
5:17
Speaker 2: this book that we'll be talking about today. I appreciate
5:19
Speaker 2: you very much.
5:21
Speaker 3: You're welcome, Alex.
5:23
Speaker 2: What a gift. So the book. Now, if you're tuning
5:29
Speaker 2: in to the Faithful Fitness Podcast, you might ask, what
5:32
Speaker 2: in the world does outgrowing porn have to do with fitness?
5:36
Speaker 2: And I'm going to answer this, and I wouldn't mind
5:39
Speaker 2: your thoughts as well, Drew, before we get into really
5:41
Speaker 2: the meat and potatoes of the book. But to you
5:45
Speaker 2: guys who are either new to the Faithful Fitness Podcast
5:48
Speaker 2: or maybe you've been following us for a bit, we've
5:50
Speaker 2: not talked about pornography on the show before, but I
5:52
Speaker 2: want to talk to you about it today. This is
5:54
Speaker 2: so important. Remember, our mission is to help you make
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Speaker 2: the most out of the body God's given you. And
6:01
Speaker 2: and I want you guys to understand that there's there
6:04
Speaker 2: is a in the spirit world. There's this there's this territory.
6:08
Speaker 2: I think of it this way, there's a territory that
6:12
Speaker 2: the enemy wants to take. He wants to take our families,
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Speaker 2: he wants to take our homes. The Bible says that
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Speaker 2: the enemy seeks to kill and destroy and one of
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Speaker 2: those areas. One of those territories is our body. And
6:25
Speaker 2: so how we feed ourselves, how we exercise, how we restore,
6:30
Speaker 2: those are things that we can learn to do in
6:32
Speaker 2: good stewardship of the body God's given us. In pornography,
6:37
Speaker 2: attacking our sexuality, attacking our families, attacking our minds, our
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Speaker 2: mental health, attacking our integrity, those that territory is directly
6:49
Speaker 2: related to the body, not just the body, but definitely
6:52
Speaker 2: related to the body. And so I think it's such
6:54
Speaker 2: an important thing for us to talk about. And I'm
6:56
Speaker 2: so excited to have this conversation. Drew, What did you
7:00
Speaker 2: say it to somebody who's just walking in and like,
7:02
Speaker 2: what does what does over outgrowing porn have to do
7:04
Speaker 2: with you know, the intersection of faith and fitness. Do
7:07
Speaker 2: you have thoughts on that front?
7:07
Speaker 3: And as well, Yeah, health and fitness is similar to
7:13
Speaker 3: sexuality in that it affects everything, and everything affects it.
7:19
Speaker 3: How we're doing emotionally, how we're doing it in our relationships, mentally,
7:24
Speaker 3: the stories we tell ourselves all affect our health and fitness,
7:28
Speaker 3: and sexuality also plays a huge role in how much
7:32
Speaker 3: energy you have. It plays a huge role in how
7:35
Speaker 3: you feel about yourself and how you relate to others.
7:39
Speaker 3: So it's not just about consuming porn or not. It's
7:44
Speaker 3: also about what doctor Andrew Bauman calls a pornographic style
7:47
Speaker 3: of relating that can be infecting your marriage or your
7:56
Speaker 3: relationship with your kids. And and also it can keep
8:01
Speaker 3: us in fear, shame, and isolation rather than truly flourishing.
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Speaker 2: Well said, Well said, thank you. And I was just
8:10
Speaker 2: explaining this to my son. So he's ten, and he
8:14
Speaker 2: was asking me, you know, we have appropriate conversations for
8:18
Speaker 2: his age, but it's so so important to me that
8:21
Speaker 2: he knows Dad's a safe place to talk about things.
8:23
Speaker 2: He's in fifth grade and he's hearing language. He's hearing
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Speaker 2: references to sex that he doesn't understand right that you know,
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Speaker 2: maybe some somebody's older sibling has told them, or maybe
8:35
Speaker 2: they stumbled across it on the internet, or maybe they
8:37
Speaker 2: overheard an adult conversation or something. And he's hearing these things.
8:41
Speaker 2: He's like, hey, Dad, what's this mean? What's this mean?
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Speaker 2: And I was explaining to him, Hey, sex is something
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Speaker 2: very powerful and good that God made. It's such a
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Speaker 2: powerful and important and good creation. But it can be dirtied,
8:59
Speaker 2: it can be sullied, can it can come up in
9:01
Speaker 2: vulgar conversation, And it's something that we can bring under
9:06
Speaker 2: the lordship of Jesus, or we can make it something
9:10
Speaker 2: that's not, which is shameful and guilt ridden. And well,
9:17
Speaker 2: you know, you probably have more language than I do. There.
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Speaker 3: This is a huge part of sex education that many
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Speaker 3: of us didn't receive. Our sexuality needs blessing and boundaries.
9:31
Speaker 3: Same thing with our bodies, same thing with our minds.
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Speaker 3: Like it's all good and it needs to be stewarded.
9:41
Speaker 3: As you said, So like a fire in the fireplace,
9:47
Speaker 3: it's warm, it's welcoming. It's life giving, but if you
9:51
Speaker 3: take it out of the fireplace, it can really destroy
9:55
Speaker 3: the house. True them, So sexualities like that. It's also
10:00
Speaker 3: like the ocean, a source of beauty, recreation, play, adventure,
10:06
Speaker 3: and also it can kill you. And it's more powerful
10:10
Speaker 3: than we are. And this is one of the primary
10:13
Speaker 3: insights that I want to share about freedom from porn.
10:18
Speaker 3: The more you resist sexual thoughts and feelings, the stronger
10:22
Speaker 3: they get. Yes, And this is why so many men
10:28
Speaker 3: and women have been fighting a frustrating, exhausting battle for years,
10:33
Speaker 3: because it's like trying to fight against a wave of
10:37
Speaker 3: the ocean. Like good luck, the ocean's gonna win. But
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Speaker 3: when you can learn to move with the waves, and
10:47
Speaker 3: you can get where you want to go. And so
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Speaker 3: a big part of what I hope everyone here will
10:53
Speaker 3: learn is how to move with the waves of sexual
10:58
Speaker 3: thoughts and feelings instead of against them.
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Speaker 2: And and your your book, so the book is Outgrow Porn.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to put the link in the show notes below.
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Speaker 2: You were so gracious, by the way, too, you have
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Speaker 2: a whole first chapter of your book that people can
11:11
Speaker 2: just download, So I'm going to put the link to that.
11:13
Speaker 2: But I'm also going to put the link in the
11:15
Speaker 2: show notes for people to pick this up, but just
11:17
Speaker 2: the title. So I want to talk to you about
11:19
Speaker 2: why you wrote this book. Kind of impetus for this
11:21
Speaker 2: because you've been you've been in this space, you've been
11:23
Speaker 2: practicing this space for for some years now. And and
11:28
Speaker 2: I just I've read like maybe eight or nine books
11:34
Speaker 2: on I wouldn't say overcoming porn, the porn problem. How
11:38
Speaker 2: about that label? Label them the porn problem? You know,
11:41
Speaker 2: like every Man's Battle. There's there's a bunch of them,
11:44
Speaker 2: and in some of them from a Christian perspective, and
11:46
Speaker 2: that some of them from a scientific perspective what happens
11:48
Speaker 2: in the brain and all that stuff. And and I
11:52
Speaker 2: just haven't read a book like this before. I just
11:55
Speaker 2: have not in a good way. Like I'm like reading
11:57
Speaker 2: this book, I'm like, man, there is things in my
12:00
Speaker 2: story that I have outgrown. And I didn't even have
12:06
Speaker 2: the language to be able to tell you that I
12:08
Speaker 2: had outgrown them until I read the book. And I
12:11
Speaker 2: was like, that's why, that's not a problem for me anymore.
12:16
Speaker 2: In my experience with many of the tools and the
12:22
Speaker 2: lines of thought and belief systems in the Christian community,
12:26
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to porn, is something like try
12:29
Speaker 2: harder and resist more. You know, put more behavioral modification
12:34
Speaker 2: things on your phone so people know what you're seeing
12:37
Speaker 2: and that sort of stuff. And I'm not decrying them,
12:40
Speaker 2: just it was well, it was like training a dog
12:44
Speaker 2: with a treat instead of dealing with the root issue.
12:48
Speaker 2: Which I think you might articulate this differently, but one
12:51
Speaker 2: of the lines you say in your book is very
12:54
Speaker 2: rarely do men get hooked on porn. Yes, boys get
12:58
Speaker 2: hooked on porn. And there's there's a very deep and
13:02
Speaker 2: redeeming idea in what you what you have written about,
13:07
Speaker 2: and what your the tools and resources and your book
13:10
Speaker 2: point toward, and that is that you don't have to
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Speaker 2: struggle with this forever. It's not something you have to
13:17
Speaker 2: resist until I don't know, you run out of testosterone
13:20
Speaker 2: enough that you're really not that interested or whatever, which
13:23
Speaker 2: doesn't happen. By the way, I've worked with a lot
13:25
Speaker 2: of men in their fifties, sixties or even later who
13:28
Speaker 2: have wrestled with pornography in their life. It's not a
13:33
Speaker 2: it's not a testosterone related issue. And and I just
13:38
Speaker 2: I love love your approach I love the grace and
13:41
Speaker 2: power in this. This really is a powerful resource, and
13:45
Speaker 2: so I'm so grateful. But why did you write outgrow porn?
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Speaker 2: There's a journey there, and there's there's a desire there,
13:52
Speaker 2: and a hope there, and and love for you to
13:53
Speaker 2: be able to talk about that here.
13:56
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, like you, I've read many books on this
14:00
Speaker 3: topic and still felt dissatisfied. Wanted something that was bringing
14:08
Speaker 3: together the best of neuroscience and psychology from a Christian perspective,
14:15
Speaker 3: that would be practical, that would say, hey, this is
14:19
Speaker 3: what you do step by step, without wanting to make
14:23
Speaker 3: it an obligation or a formula, but like, hey, you
14:26
Speaker 3: need a whole toolbox to be able to fix this car,
14:31
Speaker 3: so to speak. I agree that, and some tools are
14:34
Speaker 3: going to be more helpful for some people than others.
14:36
Speaker 3: So let's lay them all out there and also give
14:39
Speaker 3: lots of stories of hope, lots of stories of healing,
14:45
Speaker 3: so that you have more imagination for what life without
14:49
Speaker 3: porn can look like. A lot of books talk about
14:53
Speaker 3: the problems, either the problems with porn or the problems
14:56
Speaker 3: that drive people to porn, and unfortunately they've been short
15:00
Speaker 3: on solutions. Yes, so porn actually is a solution. It's
15:07
Speaker 3: a solution that we learned to use when we were
15:12
Speaker 3: younger in order to regulate our physical state in our emotions.
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Speaker 3: So yes, I believe it's a problem. But more than that,
15:22
Speaker 3: it's a sexualized solution for unprocessed pain. So when we
15:27
Speaker 3: can learn healthier, more life giving ways to process what
15:35
Speaker 3: we're feeling, we don't need the old regulator anymore, or
15:39
Speaker 3: the old pacifier of porn. And so I've wondered sometimes,
15:48
Speaker 3: if I could process what I'm feeling every single time,
15:53
Speaker 3: would I ever give into sexual temptation. It's a good question.
15:58
Speaker 3: It highlights that it's not about sex. It's about learning
16:06
Speaker 3: to sit with discomfort. It's about the tension. It's about
16:14
Speaker 3: the longings of our heart that are often unfulfilled. We
16:22
Speaker 3: don't even realize it. So one of the key concepts
16:28
Speaker 3: we all need to understand about porn is the difference
16:31
Speaker 3: between arousal and desire. Arousal is the surface level attraction
16:40
Speaker 3: and urge to access some kind of sexual content or
16:44
Speaker 3: to fantasize about someone. So the person that I might
16:50
Speaker 3: focus on in porn, that would be the arousal. Now
16:59
Speaker 3: that arousal might make me think I want porn or
17:03
Speaker 3: I like porn, but that's not necessarily the case, because
17:07
Speaker 3: arousal is distinct from desire. Arousals at the surface level,
17:13
Speaker 3: desires at the soul level. So when I see someone
17:16
Speaker 3: or something that arouses me, I could say, yeah, that's arousing,
17:21
Speaker 3: but it's not what I desire. What I desire at
17:23
Speaker 3: a deeper level might be acceptance, belonging, connection, being seen, safe, soothed.
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Speaker 3: These are the deeper desires that are driving us, and
17:37
Speaker 3: we don't even realize it.
17:40
Speaker 2: And so you have this poignant picture of a pacifier,
17:44
Speaker 2: and I've heard you say this on your podcast before
17:46
Speaker 2: that porn is a pacifier. And I work in children's ministry,
17:50
Speaker 2: so it's a volunteer position with the church. I'm a
17:53
Speaker 2: lay pastor. But I see, I see what you know,
17:59
Speaker 2: nine month olds with a pacifier, that's what you know.
18:01
Speaker 2: They cry and mom's not around, and it's it's like, oh, well,
18:05
Speaker 2: here's your passy, and so they, you know, they pacify,
18:08
Speaker 2: they're they're happy with that that stimulus for the moment,
18:11
Speaker 2: and they will go to sleep or they'll relax or whatever.
18:14
Speaker 2: And that's that's normal. I'm not trying to normalize porn here.
18:18
Speaker 2: But but that's they're nine months old, when you're four,
18:23
Speaker 2: and you're walking around and trying to talk. But you
18:25
Speaker 2: have a power, I know, like as as somebody who
18:31
Speaker 2: works with children, I'll take the passy out of their
18:33
Speaker 2: mouth and say, you're too old for what are you doing?
18:35
Speaker 2: Talk to me like you can, you can talk to me.
18:37
Speaker 2: And and the image of pornography as a pacifier, you
18:46
Speaker 2: said a what'd you say as sexualized solution, sexualized solution
18:51
Speaker 2: to my un results unprocessed pain. Yeah, unprocessed pain. Okay,
18:56
Speaker 2: so a sexualized solution to my unprocessed pain. That the
19:01
Speaker 2: image of a grown man or a grown woman going,
19:07
Speaker 2: I don't need this anymore, like much maturing and healing
19:13
Speaker 2: and and not not getting rid of their sexuality. But
19:19
Speaker 2: in a way the way that you articulate in the book,
19:21
Speaker 2: it's it's like integrating the good sexuality that God's given
19:26
Speaker 2: you into your everyday existence, into understanding your needs and
19:33
Speaker 2: your arousal and desire and what's good about that and
19:38
Speaker 2: and what what has been hurt about that that that
19:43
Speaker 2: porn had been addressing in a pacifier sort of way.
19:48
Speaker 2: But that when you outgrow that. You ask a four
19:49
Speaker 2: year old, why are you so upset? Oh? He took
19:52
Speaker 2: my toy? Will fix that. Now, we don't need the
19:57
Speaker 2: passy for the c in the in the in the upset. Yes, right,
20:01
Speaker 2: and that that is such a very very powerful image
20:05
Speaker 2: that I think is worth is not is worth understanding
20:10
Speaker 2: that It's going to take me a second to get
20:13
Speaker 2: this phrase that this this sexualized solution to unprocessed pain.
20:18
Speaker 2: Did I get it? Yeah? Yes, Okay, that's hard for me,
20:22
Speaker 2: but I'll get there. That the sexualized solution to unprocessed pain.
20:26
Speaker 2: That's very different from some sort of temptation I got
20:29
Speaker 2: to keep saying no to. That's a very different picture.
20:33
Speaker 3: Right it is is it prompts us to ask, when
20:40
Speaker 3: I have the urge or the attraction to go back
20:44
Speaker 3: to something that feels sexually irresistible, I can ask what's
20:47
Speaker 3: underneath that, What's what's going on for me at a
20:50
Speaker 3: deeper level, that's that's driving me there. It's a very
20:54
Speaker 3: different attitude and freedom then naturally comes as a result
21:00
Speaker 3: of maturity emotionally, to be able to know what I'm
21:04
Speaker 3: feeling and handle it relationally, to be able to connect
21:08
Speaker 3: with others rather than settle for a counterfeit connection. And
21:13
Speaker 3: I think sexually, to be able to embrace and welcome
21:20
Speaker 3: this part of me rather than trying to get rid
21:24
Speaker 3: of it. Yeah, and when you think about the image
21:26
Speaker 3: of a passifier and what is a pacifier, it's a
21:29
Speaker 3: fake nipple or perhaps for some a fake penis. And
21:38
Speaker 3: so when we can we can see beyond the service
21:43
Speaker 3: level of what what does this symbolize for me? What's
21:45
Speaker 3: it really about? Then then we can pursue the real
21:49
Speaker 3: thing instead of the fake version.
21:53
Speaker 2: And so so for me, this is a this is
21:55
Speaker 2: a I don't mean to beat a dead horse here,
21:58
Speaker 2: but this is so important. There is a difference between redemption, healing, integration,
22:05
Speaker 2: compassion and purity culture. There's a there's a to me,
22:11
Speaker 2: it just couldn't even be a deeper rift between the
22:15
Speaker 2: two things. And in one says grace to me, it
22:20
Speaker 2: says grace, and the other says try harder. And I
22:25
Speaker 2: have a strange fitness corollary that Mary may not land
22:28
Speaker 2: with you, but go with me on this. Okay. So,
22:31
Speaker 2: as a master trainer who spent over ten thousand hours
22:35
Speaker 2: training myself and other people, when I go to a
22:38
Speaker 2: gym and I see. Let's say, I see a large
22:44
Speaker 2: overweight woman in running shoes, not lifting shoes, in running shoes,
22:50
Speaker 2: trying to do burpies, and I see the pain. I
22:54
Speaker 2: see the knee braces, I see the lack of posture,
22:58
Speaker 2: lack of form, and I see that she's doing her best,
23:04
Speaker 2: like she really is. She's making an effort. She's sweat
23:06
Speaker 2: and everything hurts. I know the feeling of my joints
23:10
Speaker 2: not doing what I need them to do. And a
23:12
Speaker 2: large overweight woman in her fifties does not have any
23:15
Speaker 2: business trying to do burpies. It's not the right thing
23:18
Speaker 2: for her. If I walk over to her and I say, yeah,
23:22
Speaker 2: try harder, or if I say, hey, I see your
23:28
Speaker 2: effort here, like you're doing such a good job. You're
23:31
Speaker 2: working so hard. Can I show you some things that
23:36
Speaker 2: will help you foundationally, so that your body can shift
23:40
Speaker 2: and change in accordance with the effort that you're putting forward.
23:44
Speaker 2: There's nothing that hurts my heart more than seeing somebody
23:48
Speaker 2: whose heart's in the right place, who's trying so hard
23:51
Speaker 2: but it's like they're getting nowhere. And telling them to
23:54
Speaker 2: try harder on that hamster wheel is like I mean
23:58
Speaker 2: it's you might as well punch them in the your
24:00
Speaker 2: min as well. Like to me, that's that and so
24:03
Speaker 2: and so I the purity culture that I mean, that's
24:07
Speaker 2: that's what I was raised in. That's how I tried
24:10
Speaker 2: to address my struggles with pornography. And I failed every
24:14
Speaker 2: time until there was grace and healing and maturity. Until
24:20
Speaker 2: that happened, there was no freedom. There was no freedom,
24:23
Speaker 2: So and so I I, if you have something to
24:26
Speaker 2: say about my my metaphor, I'd love to hear that.
24:28
Speaker 2: But but also when when you approach this in your
24:32
Speaker 2: practice with men and you and women, and you approach
24:35
Speaker 2: this in your your podcast, what what would you like
24:39
Speaker 2: to say to somebody who's wrestled with the purity culture.
24:44
Speaker 3: Sometimes the messages that they've heard have been spiritualized platitudes
24:51
Speaker 3: like you don't love God enough, or you wouldn't be
24:57
Speaker 3: doing this. You need to believe that the gospel more.
25:04
Speaker 3: How much are you reading your Bible? How much are
25:07
Speaker 3: you memorizing scripture? None of those things are bad, and
25:11
Speaker 3: yet they're not getting at the foundation. And for so
25:21
Speaker 3: many of us, the foundation is that if you were
25:29
Speaker 3: if you were exposed to porn at a young age.
25:34
Speaker 3: You are a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. That is
25:40
Speaker 3: a fundamental truth and reality that needs to be honored here.
25:47
Speaker 3: So it's it's not primarily about purity or morality. It's
25:56
Speaker 3: primarily about a lack of sexual development that yes, has
26:00
Speaker 3: had moral consequences and implications in adulthood. But we need
26:06
Speaker 3: to start with compassion for the story behind our sexuality
26:14
Speaker 3: and a relationship with porn, and that changes everything.
26:22
Speaker 2: And I mean, that's that's the heart. It starts in
26:25
Speaker 2: chapter one in your book. You you spend the time
26:28
Speaker 2: to help men and women understand where this started for them,
26:33
Speaker 2: and you encourage them to explore that. I've many of
26:36
Speaker 2: your tools are in the book are practical ways that
26:41
Speaker 2: an individual can start the process of understanding where does
26:44
Speaker 2: this start for me? Where was the pain? Well, you don't,
26:51
Speaker 2: we won't talk about where to go from here, but
26:53
Speaker 2: it's it's so powerful to start there.
26:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's important to start there because out growing
26:59
Speaker 3: porn is not like working out more or changing your diet.
27:06
Speaker 3: It's like breaking up with somebody who's been there for
27:09
Speaker 3: you your whole life. It's like it's like cutting off a
27:17
Speaker 3: family member who you deeply loved who vandalized your sexuality
27:22
Speaker 3: from a young age. I mean it is, it is
27:25
Speaker 3: like that for people. It's extremely difficult, and at the
27:35
Speaker 3: same time like this is this is one of the
27:40
Speaker 3: most important things you might ever do.
27:44
Speaker 2: That's right, It's right. It's like, I know I keep
27:48
Speaker 2: using fitness metaphors here, but let's say that my legs
27:52
Speaker 2: are not fit to carry me around. But I have
27:55
Speaker 2: to walk every day. My knees, my ankles, my hips,
27:58
Speaker 2: my back, and I can be walking around in pain
28:02
Speaker 2: all day long. I can do that, and there's a
28:04
Speaker 2: lot of things I can do to the know the
28:06
Speaker 2: pain or shove it down or deal with it or
28:07
Speaker 2: numb it or or whatever. But if I heal the legs,
28:12
Speaker 2: I make the ankle stronger, if I make the make
28:14
Speaker 2: the knees stronger, if I make the back stronger, if
28:16
Speaker 2: I correct the posture, I get I get everything moving
28:18
Speaker 2: like it's supposed to. Then I get to walk through
28:21
Speaker 2: my days without this nagging pain all the time. In
28:27
Speaker 2: my experience, especially, you know, I'm not in the professional
28:31
Speaker 2: space like you are on this front. I'm just literally
28:34
Speaker 2: a guy who is with men regularly in the pastoral
28:38
Speaker 2: space for many many people who are walking through their lives,
28:42
Speaker 2: they're walking with this pain every day, just just walking
28:45
Speaker 2: unhealed and traumatized every day. Either one they don't know it,
28:51
Speaker 2: or two there's so much shame around it that that
28:56
Speaker 2: they're afraid to go there. Can you talk to me
28:59
Speaker 2: a bit about out about the shame aspect of this?
29:03
Speaker 2: Why is the shame thing so powerful and important in
29:08
Speaker 2: the process of healing and outgrowing porny?
29:13
Speaker 3: Shame is one of the three great sexualizers, as I
29:17
Speaker 3: call them. If you think about your own sexual education,
29:26
Speaker 3: how many healthy, safe, connecting conversations that you have with
29:33
Speaker 3: your parents about sex grown up?
29:35
Speaker 2: Zero?
29:39
Speaker 3: That is the story I hear over and over again.
29:42
Speaker 3: Or maybe they had like one weekend or one single talk.
29:49
Speaker 3: Sam Joelman has a great book that came out last
29:51
Speaker 3: year called The Sex Talk You Never Got Wow. And
29:57
Speaker 3: so in the absence of that going healthy conversation, the
30:02
Speaker 3: natural result is shame, silence, secrecy, isolation, feeling like I
30:07
Speaker 3: can't talk about this, I'm gonna be judge, I'm gonna
30:10
Speaker 3: be condemned. This is bad. That shame simultaneously cuts us
30:15
Speaker 3: off from being able to get the support that could
30:19
Speaker 3: help us in this area. Of life, and it also
30:22
Speaker 3: increases the appeal of porn because it becomes this forbidden,
30:28
Speaker 3: magicalized thing that all of a sudden it takes on
30:35
Speaker 3: even more power because we're not talking about it, because
30:39
Speaker 3: no one's even acknowledging it except in secret. So I
30:44
Speaker 3: think for some of us, porn was our primary sex education,
30:52
Speaker 3: so prevents healthy sexual development, and it gives poor and
31:01
Speaker 3: more power. And then after accessing poor and many of
31:05
Speaker 3: us feel even more shame. So it's a vicious cycle.
31:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
31:08
Speaker 3: Now, shame as a human emotion is actually not bad,
31:13
Speaker 3: but when it gets infected, it turns into self condemnation,
31:17
Speaker 3: self hatred, self contempt, and that's what we call toxic shame. Now,
31:23
Speaker 3: if I'm feeling shame about something like how I look
31:27
Speaker 3: right now, and I talk about it with you, it
31:30
Speaker 3: has done its job. The shame has brought me into
31:33
Speaker 3: connection right, yes, instead of hiding, instead of isolation, and
31:42
Speaker 3: in the dark that's where it gets infected. So start
31:45
Speaker 3: of healing is bringing our shame into the light.
31:47
Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry to interrupt, just to make sure I understand
31:49
Speaker 2: that clue it. So, in your mind, shame is a
31:52
Speaker 2: powerful and good emotion if it brings you into connection, correct,
31:57
Speaker 2: But shame becomes toxic. When shame becomes slating, you can't
32:02
Speaker 2: share this. Nobody will understand. You're the only one. Uh
32:05
Speaker 2: you know this this is this is dirty and gross
32:08
Speaker 2: and bad, so nobody should know. And you need to
32:12
Speaker 2: deal with this all by yourself something like that.
32:15
Speaker 3: Yeah on a lumkey. The author of Dopamine Nation draws
32:19
Speaker 3: this distinction by saying, the shame that you are willing
32:24
Speaker 3: to share is called pro social shame, and it creates
32:29
Speaker 3: powerful group bonds. When I'm really vulnerable about the things
32:34
Speaker 3: I don't like about myself in a safe environment, wow,
32:39
Speaker 3: deep friendships will form there.
32:41
Speaker 2: Yes. And you know, strangely, I've also noticed in that setting,
32:46
Speaker 2: because because I have, I have been blessed to find
32:49
Speaker 2: that connection. I've also noticed in that setting that once
32:54
Speaker 2: shame is out in the open in that sense and
32:58
Speaker 2: lights on it, that's the end of its power. It's done. Yeah,
33:02
Speaker 2: Like you don't carry that around anymore? Right? Like? And
33:05
Speaker 2: is that is that your experience? And also also what
33:07
Speaker 2: you're talking about.
33:08
Speaker 3: Here, Yes, incrementally and increasingly Yes. In every recovery group
33:15
Speaker 3: I've been in, my challenge to myself has been to
33:18
Speaker 3: share just a little bit more that I've ever shared before.
33:23
Speaker 2: That's tough, because like vulnerability just keeps going down, you know,
33:26
Speaker 2: like like the core, the little what you call them
33:28
Speaker 2: little drew.
33:31
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, sharing more and more of little Drew, sharing
33:34
Speaker 3: more of the things that I've never told anyone before.
33:38
Speaker 3: And every time I tell a little bit more of
33:42
Speaker 3: the part of my story that I I think people
33:45
Speaker 3: are going to reject me for, then that muscle builds.
33:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you grow, you grow some yes exactly. Yeah, Yeah,
33:56
Speaker 2: that's that's huge. That's huge.
33:59
Speaker 3: So the shame is one of the core issues of porn,
34:02
Speaker 3: maybe the core issue that if you if you can
34:05
Speaker 3: start to address shame, you're gonna be more free.
34:10
Speaker 2: Thank you for that. And actually in the book, I
34:12
Speaker 2: want to say this because we've said some things that
34:15
Speaker 2: aren't like explicitly in your book. They're implicit, they're they're
34:18
Speaker 2: under the surface. What I loved about how you wrote
34:22
Speaker 2: is do you use the science, the neuroscience of psychology
34:29
Speaker 2: and and even counseling to inform your work, but you
34:32
Speaker 2: don't spend a lot of time in the weeds there.
34:35
Speaker 2: You tell the reader what they need to understand. That's
34:40
Speaker 2: practical for them, but like I didn't. I didn't walk
34:43
Speaker 2: away from this feeling like I just read an academic
34:46
Speaker 2: paper about it. And I have. I've I've read academic
34:49
Speaker 2: papers on pornography and that to me, I'm a nerd.
34:52
Speaker 2: They're very interesting, but they don't tell me what to do,
34:55
Speaker 2: tell me what to do about this truth as an
34:59
Speaker 2: so I was, I was talking with my son again,
35:02
Speaker 2: he's ten, my oldest, and he asked me to watch
35:06
Speaker 2: a movie and I said, buddy, that's a great movie,
35:11
Speaker 2: but there's some parts of it that are still inappropriate
35:13
Speaker 2: for you. And he's like, he's like, well, you know
35:15
Speaker 2: how old do I have to be? I said, well,
35:17
Speaker 2: you know there's a maturation process for your brain that
35:22
Speaker 2: at those points you will be you know, your brain
35:26
Speaker 2: will have matured enough that it won't affect it in
35:29
Speaker 2: a negative way as you grow. And I don't think
35:31
Speaker 2: a lot of guys understand this. Your brain doesn't stop
35:34
Speaker 2: developing until you know. There's arguments about this, but somewhere
35:38
Speaker 2: between twenty three and twenty seven, and it's illegal to
35:43
Speaker 2: have alcohol before twenty one. Why because it will permanently
35:49
Speaker 2: change the way your brain works. In our house, it's
35:53
Speaker 2: not illegal necessarily as a as a you know, a statute.
35:57
Speaker 2: But in our house, we don't allow our kids to
35:59
Speaker 2: have more than thirty milligrams of caffeine they're young. I
36:03
Speaker 2: don't I don't want that messing with the way their
36:05
Speaker 2: brain develops. But a lot of men don't understand that
36:09
Speaker 2: when you are exposed to porn during your brain development,
36:14
Speaker 2: that shifts and changes how you how you're wired now,
36:20
Speaker 2: and that's during development. So when you talk about this
36:26
Speaker 2: in your book, not in a neuroscience way, but you
36:30
Speaker 2: help men understand that the part of you that was
36:35
Speaker 2: was conditioned to porn, or attached to porn, or hurt
36:40
Speaker 2: by porn, all of the above, and maybe more and
36:43
Speaker 2: shaped by porn, that part of you was too young
36:47
Speaker 2: to understand what was probably happening. And it sheds a
36:51
Speaker 2: lot of light, especially in retrospect for me, you know,
36:54
Speaker 2: I'm thirty six. Sheds a lot of light and retrospect
36:57
Speaker 2: for me about many of the ways that was is
37:00
Speaker 2: just part of my developmental process. Understanding that and digging
37:06
Speaker 2: into it, and the tools that you have in your
37:08
Speaker 2: book to help guide men men. I keep saying, men,
37:12
Speaker 2: it's just because I work with a lot of men,
37:14
Speaker 2: but men and women, you know, developmental processes. The women's
37:18
Speaker 2: brains were also maturing, you know, whenever they're exposed to
37:21
Speaker 2: this sort of thing. It's it's so I just keep
37:26
Speaker 2: using the word grace because because I picture Christ saying
37:30
Speaker 2: to somebody, I'm here for you, and I will continue
37:37
Speaker 2: to be here for you. I know what happened to you,
37:41
Speaker 2: and I'm not I'm not saying you're a victim. I'm
37:45
Speaker 2: saying that this is something that I can help you
37:49
Speaker 2: heal from and grow through, and that to me, that
37:53
Speaker 2: is this so redeeming. So so I'm actually kind of curious,
37:58
Speaker 2: academically speaking, how hard was it to not make the
38:03
Speaker 2: book so academically inaccessible that it was practical? You know
38:07
Speaker 2: what I'm talking about, Like you live this and read
38:09
Speaker 2: about it and think about it every day, but it's
38:12
Speaker 2: so accessible. Your book is so accessible. How hard was
38:15
Speaker 2: that for you?
38:16
Speaker 3: It was easy because I don't like academics.
38:20
Speaker 1: A lot.
38:20
Speaker 3: Everything to be simple enough so that I can actually
38:26
Speaker 3: do something with it, you know.
38:27
Speaker 2: It's like.
38:29
Speaker 3: And I think, actually that's part of why porn has power,
38:33
Speaker 3: is because for many of us who spend a lot
38:35
Speaker 3: of time in our heads. Yes, it gets us out
38:38
Speaker 3: of our heads. It takes a break from the mental
38:43
Speaker 3: mess and the overthinking and the anxiety and the depression
38:47
Speaker 3: and whatever's going on in our heads before give you
38:50
Speaker 3: a break from it. Robert Masters, who coined the term
38:53
Speaker 3: outgrowing pornography, came on my podcast and he said that
38:58
Speaker 3: we tend to go back and forth as men from
39:00
Speaker 3: our head straight to our penises, and we skip everything
39:04
Speaker 3: in the middle. Well, what's in the middle your heart
39:10
Speaker 3: and your lungs and your gut. And to become more
39:15
Speaker 3: integrated is to engage more of all that is within you.
39:20
Speaker 3: Your heart, your emotions, your deep feelings and desires and
39:24
Speaker 3: longings are worth attention and worth spending the time to
39:33
Speaker 3: really get to know, rather than going straight to your
39:35
Speaker 3: penis and thinking I just need a sexual release, Like
39:37
Speaker 3: what's really going on in your heart? Also, your lungs
39:40
Speaker 3: are such a great resource. You know, deep breathing, also
39:44
Speaker 3: power breathing such as whim Hoff breathing can really help
39:47
Speaker 3: to ride the waves of sexual energy. And then your gut.
39:50
Speaker 3: Some people are calling our gut the second brain. Some
39:53
Speaker 3: people are calling it our first brain. Like there's a
39:57
Speaker 3: lot of power in listening to our body and our
40:02
Speaker 3: gut instincts. So oftentimes, once some of my clients are
40:09
Speaker 3: confused about something, I'll say, what does your gut tell you?
40:12
Speaker 3: And sometimes the Holy Spirit speaks through our gut.
40:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Sometimes I'll get a gut feeling like I like,
40:18
Speaker 2: I know the right or wrong here. I know the
40:21
Speaker 2: words that need to be spoken here, but I don't
40:23
Speaker 2: know why right, like I can't explain. It hasn't run
40:26
Speaker 2: through here yet.
40:28
Speaker 3: So it will help in the healing process. To be
40:32
Speaker 3: able to get out of your head without going straight
40:34
Speaker 3: to your penis.
40:35
Speaker 2: No joke, no joke. So I we've talked a lot
40:41
Speaker 2: about about the underlying principles of your book. We've also
40:46
Speaker 2: talked about why you wrote it, and as I understand it,
40:51
Speaker 2: the difference between the purity culture approach, that's what I'm
40:55
Speaker 2: that's what I'm calling the try harder and you said
40:58
Speaker 2: read your Bible more kind of thing, and not that
41:01
Speaker 2: either of those things are bad to do, but it
41:04
Speaker 2: doesn't address the healing. It's behavioral modification. It's not it's
41:09
Speaker 2: not an inviting Christ into the deeper places in you
41:13
Speaker 2: that He can heal and that can be understood and
41:17
Speaker 2: can grow and doesn't have to be hidden in shame.
41:21
Speaker 2: But I haven't asked you about what your hope and
41:25
Speaker 2: prayer for this book is. In reading your bio, one
41:29
Speaker 2: of the things that you said it was very, very
41:33
Speaker 2: It's powerful for me because i've heard your work via podcast.
41:36
Speaker 2: I've read your book, not both your books, I've read
41:39
Speaker 2: this one. But you said I've committed my life toward
41:47
Speaker 2: I don't want to say this wrong, but can I
41:49
Speaker 2: read this real quick because I don't. Yeah, I've devoted
41:53
Speaker 2: my life to helping men change their brains, heal their hearts,
41:59
Speaker 2: and say relationships from the damage of pornography. There's a
42:06
Speaker 2: decent argument to be made that one of the core
42:09
Speaker 2: struggles in the church right now is the strength of
42:13
Speaker 2: the bonds between people and the strength of households. But
42:18
Speaker 2: we talk about all the time in discipleship. You know,
42:20
Speaker 2: we do our best to disciple children, but mom and
42:24
Speaker 2: dad are the They're the primary disciplers children. They spend
42:27
Speaker 2: all the time and energy with the kids. They're praying
42:29
Speaker 2: over them before bed. I hope they're the ones teaching
42:32
Speaker 2: them how to read their Bible. And you know, when
42:35
Speaker 2: they get their alleys and stuff, they're the ones who
42:37
Speaker 2: are there to help them feel their pain but also
42:42
Speaker 2: to process it and to struggle forward with it and stuff.
42:50
Speaker 2: It hurts my heart to know that they are unhealed
42:53
Speaker 2: men and women that are trying to make their marriages
42:56
Speaker 2: work and trying to disciple their kids, and trying to
43:02
Speaker 2: go to work every day doing this, doing this thing
43:06
Speaker 2: called life. Well, in reading your book, I see a
43:12
Speaker 2: lot of hope and not trying harder, but but not
43:21
Speaker 2: being the person trying to do burpees who doesn't need
43:23
Speaker 2: to be doing burpees to to get on the right
43:28
Speaker 2: track and outgrow this thing. And so I want to
43:31
Speaker 2: ask you what what are your hopes and prayers for
43:35
Speaker 2: outgrow porn and the future? Because I mean this, this
43:39
Speaker 2: book just came out and well, the impact and the
43:44
Speaker 2: ripples are yet to be felt, or at least for
43:46
Speaker 2: the rest of the world. I know that you have
43:47
Speaker 2: felt it. But what are your hopes and prayers?
43:52
Speaker 3: My hope is that more of us would shift from
43:59
Speaker 3: simply a void lust to learning how to love and
44:03
Speaker 3: be loved. That we wouldn't measure our success just by
44:07
Speaker 3: how long I've been clean, but how much I've grown.
44:11
Speaker 3: That we would not just view relapse as failure, but
44:13
Speaker 3: as feedback, that our language would be gentle and kind
44:18
Speaker 3: instead of judgmental and harsh, That we would be less
44:21
Speaker 3: motivated by fear and shame, that we would be more
44:24
Speaker 3: motivated by curiosity and compassion, because our ultimate goal is
44:29
Speaker 3: more than just behavior modification. It's becoming mature. That's my hope.
44:35
Speaker 3: As more of us do that, we will multiply.
44:42
Speaker 2: Amen, and there are no more shame. You shine a
44:45
Speaker 2: light on.
44:45
Speaker 3: That stuff, right, I mean, porn has become the norm
44:51
Speaker 3: rather than the exception, even within the church. So what
44:54
Speaker 3: if healing could become the norm? What if freedom could
44:57
Speaker 3: be normal for people?
45:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome. That that's the gospel. That's that's the God.
45:07
Speaker 2: Can I Can I teach you something that I've learned?
45:09
Speaker 2: Or you might you might, in which case I won't
45:12
Speaker 2: be teaching you will just be agreeing together. But there's this,
45:16
Speaker 2: there's a super cool passage. I was listening to a
45:18
Speaker 2: to an expositional theologian recently, and he was who was
45:22
Speaker 2: digging into a passage in Matthew where Jesus asked the disciples,
45:26
Speaker 2: who do you say that I am? And you know,
45:28
Speaker 2: Peter gets it right, he gets the gold star. He's like,
45:30
Speaker 2: you're the Christ and so so Jesus says, you are Peter.
45:36
Speaker 2: And on this rock, I will build my church and
45:39
Speaker 2: the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. And
45:42
Speaker 2: that's such a it's such a hopeful, powerful passage, right
45:45
Speaker 2: because because you know, we're the Church and the gates
45:47
Speaker 2: of Hell aren't going to beat us. But the word
45:51
Speaker 2: prevailed there in English is actually it sounds like hell's
45:55
Speaker 2: on offense, right, the gates of Hell will not prevail.
45:58
Speaker 2: The gates of Hell are battling on all sides. But
46:02
Speaker 2: don't worry. Don't worry. The Church isn't going to fall
46:04
Speaker 2: to that. In the Greek, though, prevail is actually a
46:08
Speaker 2: defensive term. Prevail is like the fortified city that's that's
46:13
Speaker 2: trying to keep the encroaching army from coming in and
46:18
Speaker 2: prevail that A better translation in English would read something
46:21
Speaker 2: like on this rock, I'll build my church and the
46:24
Speaker 2: gates of Hell will not be able to defend against it. Like, dude,
46:29
Speaker 2: we're on offense. I don't about you, but that like
46:31
Speaker 2: fires me up. Wake up everyone, like we're going to
46:34
Speaker 2: take some territory. We're on offense. Mail let's go. I
46:39
Speaker 2: see your book as a sword in the hand of
46:44
Speaker 2: a man who's on offense with compassion, not fighting his
46:49
Speaker 2: sexual urges.
46:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me talk about that.
46:53
Speaker 2: Yeah please.
46:54
Speaker 3: There is a battle, this is spiritual warfare. Unfortunately, so
47:01
Speaker 3: many of us have turned that battle in on ourselves
47:06
Speaker 3: when the battle is actually against evil. Now, yes, there
47:11
Speaker 3: is sin within us, but how does Jesus respond to
47:14
Speaker 3: sin with love and kindness and compassion. Whenever he saw
47:18
Speaker 3: someone who was sexually broken and interacted with them, whether
47:22
Speaker 3: it is a woman caught an adultery, or the woman
47:24
Speaker 3: at the well, or even Peter after he denied Jesus
47:27
Speaker 3: three times and it wasn't sexual, but it was still
47:30
Speaker 3: a grievous sin, he came with kindness and grace. Now,
47:37
Speaker 3: when he was up against evil, then he was commanding
47:43
Speaker 3: and militant. So we're not fighting against our sexuality. We're
47:48
Speaker 3: fighting for our sexuality against evil. Let's go, let's go.
47:55
Speaker 2: Let's go. Man. Now I'm all fired up to I
47:58
Speaker 2: was fired up when we started. Now i'm fired up now. Drew,
48:04
Speaker 2: I dropped it. I'm going to grab it Drew again.
48:08
Speaker 2: Thank you for this book. I'm very excited about this book,
48:12
Speaker 2: and I'm going to pray over it. But I'm praying
48:17
Speaker 2: that this is a best seller, not because you sought
48:19
Speaker 2: to sell a million copies, but because I believe that
48:23
Speaker 2: every man and woman needs to be informed in our
48:27
Speaker 2: world today, especially with the advent of AI, like, oh
48:30
Speaker 2: my gosh, every man and woman needs to be informed
48:35
Speaker 2: about the battle is not it's not against you on
48:41
Speaker 2: the inside. You can become and grow in such a
48:47
Speaker 2: manner that you don't have to fight yourself. You don't
48:49
Speaker 2: And I just I just see that as such a
48:52
Speaker 2: profound and powerful thing, and so I want this in
48:56
Speaker 2: the hands of every person who is willing to read it.
48:58
Speaker 2: I'm going to be honest. I had to keep it
49:00
Speaker 2: in my side table in the drawer because I've got
49:05
Speaker 2: a ten year old and a three year old and
49:06
Speaker 2: that's where I keep my gun. I don't want my
49:08
Speaker 2: ten year old and three year old like playing with
49:10
Speaker 2: my gun. Not that the book's the gun, but they're
49:13
Speaker 2: not ready to read about this yet. Right at the
49:16
Speaker 2: same time, it couldn't not be read. It has to
49:19
Speaker 2: be like this is this is important, This is powerful
49:22
Speaker 2: and good, and so I hope that this is a
49:24
Speaker 2: normal conversation between men, between women about what it looks
49:30
Speaker 2: like to outgrow porn and to bring that shame into
49:33
Speaker 2: the light, to heal and mature and to lead families
49:38
Speaker 2: kind of like I was talking about earlier, walking around
49:40
Speaker 2: not in pain, done being in pain. We're done with that,
49:42
Speaker 2: like we walk normal now. And that's my prayer. I
49:47
Speaker 2: know I've I've mixed probably too many fitness metaphors in there, brother,
49:50
Speaker 2: But do you have anything that you would like to
49:54
Speaker 2: address our If you can believe it, it's been an
49:57
Speaker 2: hour already, which is I could talk to you for
49:58
Speaker 2: a while about this, But do you have anything that
50:01
Speaker 2: you would like to address our listeners who are interested
50:05
Speaker 2: in exploring this further?
50:07
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm going to speak specifically to the men here
50:10
Speaker 3: with the same words that I speak at the end
50:13
Speaker 3: of every podcast. Always remember you are God's beloved son.
50:21
Speaker 3: In you, he is well pleased.
50:24
Speaker 2: Amen, Drew. Can I end this podcast by praying over
50:28
Speaker 2: you and your family and your ministry and this book. Please?
50:33
Speaker 2: Awesome Father God, thank you so much for this day.
50:36
Speaker 2: Thank you for the opportunity to spend time with my brother,
50:39
Speaker 2: and thank you for the good work that you've laid
50:41
Speaker 2: on his heart. I'm so grateful that he sacrificed time
50:46
Speaker 2: and energy and willpower and all the things that went
50:51
Speaker 2: into producing such a grace filled tool, such a spirit
50:57
Speaker 2: filled weapon. Lord, I pray that you would bless him,
51:01
Speaker 2: that your favor would be on his household, that you
51:04
Speaker 2: would protect him and his family against the designs of
51:07
Speaker 2: the enemy. I also pray, Lord, for our listeners to
51:11
Speaker 2: this conversation, I speak against shame in Jesus' name, I
51:16
Speaker 2: pray for freedom and grace to abound. I pray Lord
51:20
Speaker 2: that if there's anybody listening or watching who is struggling
51:26
Speaker 2: or knows somebody who's struggling with pornography, that you would
51:31
Speaker 2: meet them with love and compassion, that you would give
51:35
Speaker 2: them the means and the resource to connect with what
51:38
Speaker 2: Drew's written and outgrow porn. And I pray that you
51:42
Speaker 2: would guide them to be connected in community, and that
51:46
Speaker 2: this would have no power in them anymore. In Jesus's name,
51:50
Speaker 2: I pray these things in his mighty name. Amen, Amen, Amen, Man.
51:57
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this time. This has been epic,
52:00
Speaker 2: and for our listeners, Thank you guys for joining us
52:03
Speaker 2: so much. You guys know what I'm going to say next.
52:05
Speaker 2: This has been coach Alex van Holten on the Faithful
52:07
Speaker 2: Fitness podcast. Until next time, train hard, but pray harder.
52:15
Speaker 1: Hey, if this episode helps you, jare it with someone
52:18
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52:25
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52:34
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52:38
Speaker 1: clicking on the links in the show notes below. We
52:41
Speaker 1: all have a cross to carry, but it's lighter when
52:44
Speaker 1: we do it together, so check out both links in
52:48
Speaker 1: the show notes. Don't be a big well bob, just
52:51
Speaker 1: do it. Until next time, don't forget, Train hard and
52:55
Speaker 1: pray even harder to litt