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David Somerfleck | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #77 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

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  It's another episode of the Christian we've podcast.
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  But are you subscribed? If not make sure to like, share
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  and subscribe, spread the word about the Christian Reef podcast
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  and enjoy this episode. Hello and welcome to another
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  episode of the Christian Reef podcast.
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  Today's guest is a returning guest.
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  He's been on the show before. His name is David, some effect.
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  He is a digital marketing specialist, all-round marketing
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  guy, he's the owner of DMS blue. If you haven't seen the first
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  episode that he was on, I employ you to go check that out.
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  Go listen to it. So fascinating missing, but I
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  brought him back here today because I knew we had unfinished
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  business. There's plenty of things I want
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  to ask you about and excited. To see where this goes.
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  First of all, welcome back on the show.
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  How you doing? Thank you again for having me
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  Chris, and I had fun talking to you before and you're actually
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  you may you may be surprised to know this but you're probably
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  one of the few. In fact I know you're one of the
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  few. I don't want to see you.
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  The only one but you're one of the few podcasters who I have
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  communicated with, or followed online or been a guest on there.
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  Podcast who actually promotes the podcast.
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  Does it repeatedly over time. It's okay.
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  And also, we'll take the interview and cut it into little
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  segments. So you have more to promote,
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  which is the marketing. Basically, in fact, it's quite
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  basic. Yeah, that's my stop to you.
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  Well, thank you, but that perplexes me.
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  I mean, I got to say like a lot of these things.
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  Okay, I'm not going to sit here and say I did things perfectly
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  straight off the bat, but like, here's a friend.
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  Instead, they are the podcast started Audio Only, then I
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  started doing video then I started doing Clips, right?
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  So it's Progressive, but like I always kind of knew in the back
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  of my mind that I should be doing it.
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  It was just the kind of thing of oh I don't know.
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  Is it really worth it? I don't know.
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  But blah, then I realized you absolutely have to do it but
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  forgetting all that for a second.
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  You absolutely have to, at least promote it.
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  I mean, how are people supposed to know about it or find it,
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  right? Even if you don't know how to
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  splice it in different segments? Which I get or not have the time
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  true that if you have a weekly podcast and you don't have
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  people helping you with it, where do you get the time to
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  splice it into different segments, unless you're really
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  good at it, you don't have a life, you know.
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  I mean, I mean, let's get real. I've got clients, I've got a
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  life who, you know, I need to check on her.
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  She wants to check on me, we want to go out do things.
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  So it's where the devil do I Get.
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  You know, time to sit down and listen to a podcast interview
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  and then slice it into segments. If I'm doing it weekly as you
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  had bi-weekly or monthly, maybe it's interesting, you raise that
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  point because I've not actually spoken about this before I think
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  I've mentioned this to a couple of friends but that's looking
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  about it online. So basically as you may or may
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  not know I have a YouTube channel that's specifically for
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  the podcast clip. So for those listening if you
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  want to go check those out, you don't have time to listen to the
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  whole podcast. I get it, we've all got, you
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  know. Some people like to listen to
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  full podcast some don't some prefer Clips I get it.
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  That's exactly what the clips channel is for.
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  It has everything from like one minute Clips all the way up to
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  like five seven minutes, 20 minutes etcetera, go subscribe.
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  Christian, read podcast Clips anyway plugging out the way.
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  So this channel is interesting because when I started it I
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  started doing exactly. You know what I did with the
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  main Channel, with everything else, you know, pre scheduling
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  everything Scheduling social media posts etc, etc.
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  Right. But I quickly found that I did
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  not have the time to do all three channels, all the
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  promotion for it, everything out.
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  So my third Channel, unfortunately does not receive
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  any promotion at all because I just don't have the time and in
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  the future, I'm sure I'll be able to build a team and have
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  that ability to do that. But at the same time, you know,
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  I do. What I Can't, you know what I
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  mean? I can make sure the SEO behind
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  the scenes for the YouTube clips is as good as it can possibly
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  be. And also interestingly, I've
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  been experimenting with this new YouTube shorts thing that I've
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  mentioned quite a few times on the YouTube channel so apologize
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  for repeating that in the podcast here but it worked
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  perfectly for the podcast as well.
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  Probably more. So even than the second Channel
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  these little Snippets of podcasts.
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  It's amazing. Like how much you can get from
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  every single podcast even if it's just 30 seconds or a minute
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  of stuff, you know, like people go wild for that and I've been
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  posting it everywhere, you know, like Tick-Tock Instagram and
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  YouTube and I'd like to think it is driving a bit more attention.
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  They're certainly, when I did it, you'll find this
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  interesting. Actually, the third Channel
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  jumped from somewhere in the region of like 19 or 18 initial
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  subscribers. When I announced it all the way
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  up to 45 the moment, so it's shot.
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  I mean, yeah, yeah, it's pretty good.
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  That's organic growth and it's a good place to start, you know, I
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  have a YouTube channel too, but I do it more for fun, you know,
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  if people watch a great if they don't watch it, I'm not going to
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  lose any sleep but I'm coming at it from a very different
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  perspective of where I was five ten years ago where I literally
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  didn't have time to even think about YouTube because that
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  you're not a paying client, I wouldn't talk to you, you know,
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  it was, it was, I mean, it was all about enrolling new client,
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  we're screening them and rolling down working with them, you know
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  24/7. So I didn't have time for
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  anything like that if I'm writing a blog post it's got to
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  be very methodically, you know, thought out.
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  But anyway let me let you get to your questions.
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  I don't want to digress like crazy as Might have gone before.
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  No, no no. On the contrary.
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  I feel like if anything, I'd be, I employ you to do that more.
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  Okay. I mean, if you can keep me in
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  line, if you can keep me in line and you can guide the
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  conversation, I'll digress all over the place.
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  Like I said, my God, I don't want to sound sounds awkward,
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  doesn't it? I digress all over the place.
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  It sounds very rude actually. But, you know, go right ahead.
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  Go right ahead, please. I think it depends.
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  I mean Every guest I've had on the show, I always make it my
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  mission to let them speak as long, as long as they can.
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  I think that one of the things that I do because only cop too
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  many different podcasters, I mean, you know, it's great to
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  have a conversation. I think you want to have that
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  kind of back and forth as much as you possibly can.
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  But sometimes, you know people you know if you bring a certain
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  guest on the show as a listener, you want to hear that person?
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  I know everyone wants to sit and hear me talk for instance you
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  know I'll talk because it's my show.
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  When I want to. And if I particularly want to
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  say something to that guest, I will say that.
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  But at the same time, you know, I'm not under any Illusions.
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  I know that, you know, every time a new guest is here, that's
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  the main attraction. You got to treat it like it's, I
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  don't know, like a wrestling event or something.
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  You know, you you think that's some prominently I think I agree
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  with you, insofar as the heart of what you're saying.
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  I think intelligent conversation is really the key point.
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  You know, before we It. It, I was saying, you know, I
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  had to podcasts and right. Yeah, you know, I had some
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  people on Whose agenda, I didn't want to promote.
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  Why is that? Like one reason I had one or two
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  people on who I knew where they had views that I could not in
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  good conscience and doors. And so now, I'm more methodical,
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  a more deliberate. I should say in screening
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  people. Okay.
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  Base64 staying. This is what I will do.
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  What I won't do if you think that covid is a conspiracy
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  against your icon, I don't really want to give that
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  credibility. I don't even talk to you because
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  we're not gonna have anything in common, right?
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  And you may feel that way but we're interviewing to talk about
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  business growth or business marketing, but you know, that
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  the person may feel that way. Sorry we're not a love
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  connection as they say. But you know, think it's Worth
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  it could be hurtful big Gino think it's worth interviewing
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  people who, you know, you have opposing views with.
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  I mean, maybe you can learn something, maybe your audience
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  can learn something. I mean, yeah, it depends.
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  Okay, what and I agree with you, like, obviously, if they've got
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  a good really extreme kind of agenda or something like, like,
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  what you just laid out? Yeah, fair enough.
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  But like, let's say, I don't know.
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  Well, let's take marketing for example.
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  So let's say they've got a completely different.
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  Let's say that because over the over the years, I've worked in
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  various different companies where they have mostly have
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  marketing and sales separate but some of them have it together,
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  right? So like let's say, you're, you
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  know, marketing, Focus your like, it's got to be creative.
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  It's got to be like this, you know, we're focusing on the
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  analytics. Bubba black.
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  And then you got sales guy that wants to be on the show but he's
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  like, nonsense marketing. That's like, you know, no,
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  that's like two percent of the equation.
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  It's all sales. You got to pump all the hours
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  into the cools and the Outreach and all that.
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  Like would you have someone on that show who's got like a
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  totally different approach and is essentially saying, well,
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  you're wrong. I would but only if they could
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  represent their views in an intelligent articulate way and
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  they were opened doing it. If their goal is to come on and
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  just push an infomercial of their of their views, which does
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  Happen is. You will know.
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  Yeah. So if the person just wants to
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  promote a book or some cockamamie course or something
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  promoting their view, that's not what I want to do.
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  I don't need it. I agree.
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  I you know, I don't need it. I you know look I got plenty of
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  food to eat. The house is paid for, I got the
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  wife, I got the little bunny rabbit.
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  I got plenty of books to read, I don't need it.
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  You know, I kind of agree with you too.
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  What's important to me because I had no no, I I totally agree
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  with you. I remember the first time a
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  business owner reached out to me to do a podcast.
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  I was I was apprehensive because of that exact reason I was like,
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  well, I don't want this to just be like some big emotion, like,
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  you know, it's my podcast. I want to have discussions on
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  have interesting conversations, like no one's going to find it
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  interesting if you just sit for an hour and listen to someone
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  talk about their business. However, it depends how they
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  talk about the business. Like, obviously, I will ask the
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  certain questions like, you know, what's the pay?
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  And slut plans like or, you know, how do you work with your
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  customers? Yeah, because I know that that
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  they want to get that across right, you know, I work in
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  marketing. I know right questions to us,
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  but the same time I want to get to know them.
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  I want to kind of paint a picture about them and I think
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  if anything that's better advertising for them, so to give
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  you a course, of course, like I had someone who the first person
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  that I had on the show was actually from Manchester and I
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  was like, great, local business. Startup.
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  I mean, it ticked all the boxes, as far as like, you know, I'm
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  concerned, that's not to say, I wouldn't ruin interview someone
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  from a major corporation, but like I'm more into that idea of
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  supporting growing businesses. I that kind of makes more sense
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  in my mind for a podcast like this.
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  You know, what a first? Why I have two points, one is a
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  digression, you know, the one I want to get back to you about
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  the bad experience. Things out.
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  Harping on it too long, but it's more about it, but bad fit
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  example, you'll have always wanted.
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  To do. And I would love and I'm just
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  saying this is an aside, I've always wanted to be a co-host
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  for a podcast where you actually helped people who are struggling
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  business owners because I did that one on one when I first
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  started podcasting but my episodes were like two two and a
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  half hours long and what hurt me just as the human being, just as
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  a man would hurt me and bothered me.
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  Was after you're helping them and you're telling them what
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  they should do and could do re re very realistically, two hours
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  go by I would check their sites a month or two later, they
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  hadn't done anything that they would ask him.
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  How are things going? Oh you helped me so much.
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  You're I love this experience. Okay?
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  But they didn't do it but where your host Nations That's the
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  key. Could they do it?
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  Yeah but that that's kind of what I'm saying was going to ask
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  twice me, not work. Yeah, yeah.
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  Maybe like your suggestions would involve, you know, major
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  changes as far as like things they would have to do with their
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  budget. Maybe it's something they can't
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  afford like they want to, but they just can't afford to, I
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  don't know. Or don't?
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  Or they don't know how to do it, technically, which is most
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  likely the case not to it's overwhelming but I, I'd love to
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  do that. I don't know if it would work in
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  real life. Oh I would absolutely after you
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  you'd have to paint with a very broad brush.
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  I mean. Okay, essentially what you're
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  saying is you'd want to do like co-hosting on a business
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  consultancy podcast and look business consultancy is a
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  massive industry. It's you know it's I think if
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  people can get access to that for free, fantastic.
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  I mean although if I was going to do it, I would do it.
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  In this style. So I would have like a free
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  version of the podcast, which is a lot shorter and then extended
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  version via patreon or something like that and then make money
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  through that. Like, you still really do well.
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  We dig in more deeply. Yeah, prescribing specifics.
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  Yeah. So if you're yeah, if you're
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  game, let me know me. I don't know what I could really
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  offer. Well you have a marketing
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  background, Um and you know so it might be something you'd
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  enjoy doing. If you're somebody listening and
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  they think that they're you know that Christian is just not your
• 14:50
  cup of tea and they want to go to go to bat many ways.
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  It's an idea. But I'll tell you to go back to
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  the point of you know as far as an appropriate fit or not an
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  appropriate fit of marketing of overdoing it.
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  There was one person cuz I like to be a Podcast to guessed, it
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  takes the onus off of me. I don't I don't have to work
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  from an outline. I answer questions and try to
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  provide value to listeners. That's my goal and to be as
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  authentic and as honest as I can regardless, and there was a
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  podcast that I said, I'd like to be a guest on that.
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  If you're a business podcast or you seem like a nice person, I'm
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  down and you can work with my You'll so, at least for now
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  anyway, when I get to a hundred, I may stop.
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  But so anyway, we had talked, you know, had be interesting
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  being on your podcast. So this person emailed me back
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  and said, well first you have to go to my Facebook group and join
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  my Facebook group. Then you have to also join my
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  LinkedIn group and like me on Facebook and do that.
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  Screw that. And it and then if you want to
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  put an ad on my podcast and you should subtle innuendo follows
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  and I just thought that is audacious.
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  And I think the person wanted I don't remember 100%, but I think
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  the person also wanted me to pay to be on the podcast, so I just
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  God Flatout am not going to do. Even if you're Joe Rogan is
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  funny. It's funny.
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  You say that like okay, first of all yeah never I just deleted
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  everything never pay. Away.
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  Like I remember I reached out to a celebrity rest the one time to
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  have him because I'm a big wrestling fan and I said, I
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  wanted to have this guy on my show and he emailed me back but
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  he was like, yeah, it's going to be like a hundred dollars and I
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  was like, I mean, first of all, I just can't afford that and
• 16:55
  secondly when I started to sit down and think about it as like
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  I started reaching out to other people that did podcast and I
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  was like, is this normal? And they're like, hell no.
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  And I'm like, yeah, no, he isn't, is it, you shouldn't have
• 17:05
  to pay someone because it's a two-way thing.
• 17:08
  It's like they're Permitting themselves and you're gaining
• 17:12
  from them being on the show, you know, it's like, I reached out
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  to another lesser Library recently and I'm currently in
• 17:18
  the process of working that out with her scheduling thing.
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  And I said to her, like, Hey, listen, I know.
• 17:24
  This won't do like anything for you, but like, I think I could,
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  you know, I believe in my interview ability I think we
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  could we could do something good here and it would be good.
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  And she straight up said, like I do not like, I mean, I'm
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  paraphrasing but basically like that's of no concern to her like
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  If, if I'm known or not at all like, you know, that doesn't
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  matter, it's about what we're doing and I instantly knew that,
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  okay, this is definitely the sort of person I should have on
• 17:49
  the show, and this is just how people should think in general,
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  like, you know, yeah, I agree with you.
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  I would say if there's one wrestler who I would, I would
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  love to interview or I would stay in the past because he's
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  deceased. Now, I would love to interview,
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  right, ADI, Piper? That's a good show.
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  Yeah. But it would only be with the
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  caveat that I can ask whatever I want that.
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  Is, that is public. Well, not even not even public
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  knowledge, but I get to ask whatever I want to help in a
• 18:29
  more thorough understanding of your life and career, that's it.
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  If you don't agree with that, no great.
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  Walker but very flamboyant but a lots of extremely rough.
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  Childhood just a guy all over the place so I'd love I would
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  have loved to have been able to interview him and even if he
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  were alive today, I don't think he would talk to me because I'm
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  not Joe Rogan. I think it depends, you know, I
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  mean because I get told a lot of the time that there's a lot of
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  wrestlers out there that would be willing to go on a podcast
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  who are like, legitimate like full-on stars and I often wonder
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  if I should reach out and not just wrestlers, but celebrities
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  in general, but I always think about like how can I make this
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  entertaining? I mean, like you said, right
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  then obviously there's a lot of information that you're relying
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  on public knowledge, you know, one of the first things I did
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  when I was doing my research for these These guests that I'm
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  trying to court right now was you know I looked on their
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  Wikipedia's and I fact that and their websites and then you know
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  you have to do a lot of digging and searching to find all this
• 19:41
  interesting stuff and eventually you do find something but you're
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  still relying on that public knowledge.
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  Like so to a certain extent, you need to kind of focus on.
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  Okay, what kind of questions can I ask this person?
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  That on things? They've probably been asked to
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  four thousand times before, all right.
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  Whatever, you know, or maybe like a different angle on a
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  question or something. But as far as selling the value
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  to them why they should do it, you know, the thing to remember
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  is that money aside and I mean, some of these people may be
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  struggling. Sure.
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  You know, they may be struggling in a very bad way so maybe $100
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  could be a big deal for them at that point.
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  I don't know. But you know at the end of the
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  day, a lot of these guys are not active in podcasting.
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  They're not Online. They haven't been visible in a
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  long time. So you know, what has so-and-so
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  been up to lately? Could just give them some value
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  or just let them vent. So there could be an emotional
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  value to them. And also, at the end of the day,
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  it's one more thing to build to put on YouTube.
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  Seems the staying word out there is the reason why I'm even if
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  this show becomes like a big deal, like, let's say, one day.
• 20:58
  I become a big Assess the next Joe Rogan or the first one of
• 21:03
  the first Christian Reeve. I don't know whatever.
• 21:04
  Let's say that happens, right? I'm still never going to accept
• 21:08
  that. I have to pay a guest to be on
• 21:10
  the shirt. Like no.
• 21:11
  If you don't want to be on the show that's up to you.
• 21:13
  I'm never going to pay a guest to be on the show and here's
• 21:15
  why. As far as it is, is its
• 21:19
  concerned to what the medium of podcasting is like this, this is
• 21:26
  nothing janata. Mean, this is an hour or two
• 21:28
  hours at most of someone's life, right?
• 21:31
  I do tons of work for this and this is, this isn't me going
• 21:35
  like oh hey you know please feel bad for me I do so much.
• 21:40
  No no I'm just saying that like out of the two of us in the
• 21:43
  situation. I'm the one doing all the work,
• 21:45
  right? Not Before.
• 21:47
  Yeah, with the research but also during the process of the
• 21:51
  podcast, I'm not absolutely. It's like a not it's not normal
• 21:54
  conversation. I'm not sitting there thinking
• 21:56
  like lay back and like chill dime.
• 21:58
  I have to be in the zone. I have to be focused on
• 22:01
  everything you're saying and think like, right.
• 22:03
  Should I ask him this should ask him this, where should I go?
• 22:06
  I need to bring it back, I need to move it forward, but there's
• 22:08
  so many things you got to do. And people people like Joe
• 22:13
  Rogan. Make it look easy.
• 22:14
  But you know what? Like it's naughty.
• 22:16
  I mean he has a team that but also like when if you watch him
• 22:20
  what he's doing, I mean there's there's, you know, I watch the
• 22:22
  video before we came on today by a YouTube channel, called think
• 22:26
  it's Charisma on command, it's a great channel.
• 22:29
  It's like teaches you all sorts of things about well yeah.
• 22:32
  How to have good Charisma? How to put a command?
• 22:34
  Your charisma and I've Christmas skills.
• 22:37
  He's off. And they did.
• 22:39
  They did one on Joe Rogan with the mirror technique and several
• 22:43
  other things that he does and I was just sitting there.
• 22:46
  Because some of the stuff I do already, but some of it, you
• 22:50
  know, I'm not sort of conscious of I'm like, oh, that would be a
• 22:53
  good thing to do. And and then you watch the clips
• 22:55
  of him actually doing it and it's very subtle but it changes
• 22:59
  the complexion of the discussion.
• 23:01
  You know what I mean? Yes, I do in my question about
• 23:04
  that would be did he start off doing that?
• 23:08
  Or did he learn as he went along?
• 23:10
  I think he learned because he Mets himself up the first two to
• 23:14
  three hundred episodes of the podcast.
• 23:16
  It would not good or not up to his prank.
• 23:20
  I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think everyone is bad
• 23:24
  when they start, you know, him. Like I do, I very briefly did a
• 23:27
  podcast before the Christian era podcast called the tcj podcast
• 23:31
  and it was me and a couple of friends doing it and I think we
• 23:35
  did good. You know, I think we could have
• 23:37
  gone a lot further with it, but it was a good kind of first
• 23:40
  outing for me and it taught me a few things, but when I started
• 23:43
  doing this podcast is completely different.
• 23:46
  You know, I had to come in with a bunch of research.
• 23:49
  I had to kind of think of a format as well, to some extent
• 23:54
  and over time, it's grown. So if you listen to the first
• 23:56
  couple of episodes, first 10 first, 20, you can hear it
• 24:01
  progressing. You can hear that.
• 24:02
  I'm slowly building something, but there's no kind of real
• 24:08
  confidence there yet it took me a while.
• 24:10
  Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, when I
• 24:13
  interviewed people for my two previous podcasts, I would look
• 24:17
  them up on LinkedIn. I look at their websites, I
• 24:20
  would write out a bullet list of either questions or topics.
• 24:25
  I wanted to discuss in some cases.
• 24:28
  They didn't have a website or they don't have a LinkedIn page
• 24:31
  or they told you they have a website and then you go to it
• 24:33
  and there's nothing there. I've had that happen several
• 24:36
  times. So it's like, I don't know what
• 24:39
  I'm going to come up with so I Had to learn to First go here,
• 24:44
  fill out this form. If I don't like what you answer,
• 24:48
  delete if you don't give me something to chew on, I'm just
• 24:52
  going to delete it, you know. So, but yeah.
• 24:58
  I think you, I think you have to be realistic with yourself.
• 25:01
  You know, people look at Joe Rogan and they think that their
• 25:03
  podcasts are going to be like that.
• 25:05
  And the reality is that Joe Rogan was what A sitcom like a
• 25:13
  b-list, sitcom guy, he would be like, so-and-so's friend or
• 25:17
  something, you know, on the sitcom or the guy who gets
• 25:20
  killed or whatever, you know, and then how you going to do
• 25:25
  generate a day like that, man? I mean, if he's honest, he'll
• 25:29
  admit that this is the case. Yeah, you're right, you're
• 25:31
  right. I mean, you know, we're not
• 25:32
  talking to Anthony Hopkins or something.
• 25:41
  On some sitcoms and I'm sure he would admit this, he would be,
• 25:45
  he was on a couple of sitcoms or whatever.
• 25:47
  That didn't last very long then he was an MMA fighter and while
• 25:51
  he's certainly much better than me, I mean there's no
• 25:53
  comparison. I mean he would send me in the
• 25:56
  next week or something. I'm not a I'm not like that you
• 25:59
  know. But he wasn't at the top of the
• 26:03
  list. He was no Conor McGregor, you
• 26:06
  know, he was a stand-up comedian but never at Bill Birds level.
• 26:11
  Or, you know, someone like Robin Williams or something, you know,
• 26:14
  it was brilliant. So when he started his podcast
• 26:17
  and he already had that infrastructure in place, he
• 26:20
  already had all these connections from them.
• 26:22
  And then a world from all these people from sitcoms and he need
• 26:26
  these, he sobbed people, you know, you see when he started
• 26:29
  it. I like I know where you're going
• 26:31
  with this and to some extent, I'd agree but the same time like
• 26:34
  there's a reason those first two. 300 episodes are not
• 26:38
  particularly great and the reason for that is that First of
• 26:42
  all, he hadn't built that structure that he has.
• 26:44
  Now the former right, and he was just interviewing and having
• 26:47
  people on the show who were in his friend Network, which a lot
• 26:50
  of people do. Some people make it work, but I
• 26:53
  don't necessarily think it was working exactly the way he
• 26:56
  wanted it to. And I thought that's all you
• 27:00
  talk to or your friends. And here's the thing, like I
• 27:04
  think with all of us in life that we have, a lot of different
• 27:07
  things that we're into that, we're talented that, but when it
• 27:10
  comes to work, and what you do, Living.
• 27:12
  There's going to be some things you excel at more than others.
• 27:15
  Like, okay. If you take me, I do a lot of
• 27:17
  different things right and I, you know, I'm under No Illusion.
• 27:22
  I feel like anything that I do that's just pure talking based
• 27:25
  discussion based unit, the livestreams the podcast or the
• 27:29
  the videos I do. Where I talk about a particular
• 27:31
  topic or something. Right, to me, that seems like
• 27:36
  what I'm best at, right? Right.
• 27:39
  Some people might say, oh, you're a really good actor.
• 27:40
  You're really A musician. You know what?
• 27:42
  I'm not, I'm I'm okay. I can see myself getting better.
• 27:46
  But when I look at those things and then I look at other
• 27:49
  musicians, actors doing the same thing.
• 27:52
  Yeah, I'm really not that good. You know, I think II improve.
• 27:56
  I see the Improvement, I'm objective about it, I'm
• 27:59
  realistic about it, but when I look at this, what I'm doing
• 28:01
  right now, I can see quick progression.
• 28:05
  I can see how it's developed over time.
• 28:07
  I can feel that it's changed and it's gotten better.
• 28:10
  And You know what the comments about it are getting more and
• 28:14
  more and more positive, which motivates me further.
• 28:16
  Now bring it back to Joe Rogan. I think it's the exact same
• 28:19
  thing with him. Like, you know, once he
• 28:22
  realized, hey, if I just make this one tweak, if I just have
• 28:27
  these guests on the show, mix it up a bit, you know, try
• 28:30
  something different once he realized and it and it clicked
• 28:34
  in his mind and it will started working.
• 28:36
  He just ran with it and that's why it like, you're right, it
• 28:39
  was Progressive. It took him.
• 28:41
  Time to sort of do it over, you know, it's not like it happened
• 28:44
  overnight, but I think he realized in of himself this I've
• 28:47
  got something here. This is working and you know
• 28:50
  it's like if you throw that back to his MMA commentary that he
• 28:55
  now does when he first did that, he was not good at, it was not
• 28:58
  prepared for it but now he's really good at it and I think
• 29:01
  that comes actually from his work on the podcast, he was able
• 29:05
  to return back to that and be a good commentator because of what
• 29:08
  he's learned in podcasting. Yeah.
• 29:11
  No, I think it's just important for people.
• 29:15
  Excuse me to realize that, you know, you get out what you put
• 29:18
  in and you know, everybody wants, you know, the Burger King
• 29:23
  live, you know, you want it your way, you want it immediately and
• 29:27
  everything should be five dollars or something and it just
• 29:30
  doesn't work that way. Not life, doesn't work that way
• 29:33
  and certainly business, doesn't you get out what you put in and
• 29:38
  in every aspect, so hit me. Is some tough questions,
• 29:41
  Christian. Hey Eureka Eureka.
• 29:43
  Actually I want to say one last thing just tying up that point
• 29:46
  where you just said that, that sort of having it your way thing
• 29:49
  I got to say. I always look at life a lot like
• 29:54
  like that, famous Bruce Lee, quote, you know, you've got it,
• 29:57
  you've got a chorus, you can't resist water, you've got a, you
• 30:01
  know, be water, you got to go with the flow so to speak.
• 30:04
  And I feel that that's the case with everything with all of
• 30:07
  these different things that we're doing in our lives.
• 30:09
  Like once you start adapting to the situation and kind of just
• 30:14
  taken it on board learning, you know.
• 30:16
  Yeah. You feel uncomfortable but you
• 30:18
  went you adapt to it, things just started.
• 30:20
  Up moving like rapidly accelerating when you start
• 30:23
  doing that. Yeah, I think the more.
• 30:28
  Yeah, I think there's more depth to that quote in that approach.
• 30:34
  It's like you know jump and grow wings on the way down.
• 30:38
  Well you can do that but if you hit the ground it's going to
• 30:40
  hurt really bad. So you know I think the more you
• 30:48
  can be in tune with who you are. Our is a person with a business
• 30:54
  if that's what you're trying to do.
• 30:56
  I think the more sincere the more authentic the more honest
• 31:00
  you can be with yourself and with others and you know really
• 31:03
  look at yourself in the mirror and be clear about who you are.
• 31:06
  Why you're doing what you're doing?
• 31:08
  What your goals are, the more results you'll get, you know,
• 31:14
  most people don't want to talk about failure.
• 31:17
  But I think with and whether it's in a relationship or in a
• 31:20
  business, Yes, but I think two more brutally honest, you can be
• 31:23
  about owning your failure, the easier, it's going to be for you
• 31:27
  to be able to stop whatever attracted that to make sure that
• 31:35
  be a stops. So that you can have a
• 31:38
  profitable business or happy personal life if you have
• 31:42
  trouble with dating, you know, if you change your approach, it
• 31:46
  can be really honest about why things didn't work out.
• 31:50
  That's very true. Yeah, I agree with that,
• 31:52
  wholeheartedly. I think it's very important that
• 31:55
  you learn that kind of ability to be objective.
• 31:59
  You know, it's very easy to blame other people to blame the
• 32:03
  situation or well, you know, I just didn't have all the things
• 32:06
  that I needed. Then I didn't know what I knew
• 32:08
  then know. Now, or you know, whatever, it's
• 32:11
  like, you got to be honest, you go.
• 32:12
  You know what I was? I was wrong.
• 32:15
  I thought one way and I was wrong or I didn't take the risk
• 32:18
  and that's why this happened or yeah.
• 32:20
  You know, I wasn't there for that person and that's why we're
• 32:23
  not together anymore. Whatever.
• 32:25
  You know. Yeah.
• 32:26
  Totally. Why you?
• 32:27
  Yeah, you could say that you were less mature to its.
• 32:33
  You didn't you didn't have the Insight that you that you do.
• 32:37
  Do today that maybe you see more complexity and more detail in
• 32:42
  situations and in people than you did at a younger age because
• 32:47
  now you've read more you bet more people, you've lived more
• 32:50
  so that there's more depth now depths down but the more you
• 32:53
  understand but also the more brutally honest you can be with
• 32:59
  yourself the easier life becomes.
• 33:03
  Yeah I can't keep finding myself disagreeing with you
• 33:06
  perpetually. I do apologize.
• 33:07
  But how can you not tell me what do I see reason and I mean, how
• 33:14
  could you just agree? I mean what am I going to say
• 33:16
  that? You don't agree with the sky.
• 33:18
  The sky is purple or saw me come on.
• 33:21
  I'm not going to say something that you going to disagree with
• 33:24
  but even if you did, it would be okay.
• 33:26
  I would challenge you. I would challenge you.
• 33:28
  Yeah, not expand. Ask me something and have been
• 33:31
  answered. Let's see if you disagree, I'll
• 33:33
  be very surprised because it's going to be either true.
• 33:37
  True, or it's going to be, you know, heartfelt from my
• 33:40
  perspective, that makes life so much easier when you just stop
• 33:43
  the song and dance. Oh yeah, I again shave your
• 33:47
  head. I really hate great on looking
• 33:49
  to do that but pretty girl, but but, you know, you learn you
• 33:54
  learn, do you learn very quickly.
• 33:55
  I remember, when I shave my head, I was terrified, you know,
• 33:59
  I did the comb over like Donald Trump and everything.
• 34:01
  I did that for like maybe two years I just asked.
• 34:03
  Yeah. Why didn't you years?
• 34:05
  Why not just embrace it. Straightaway.
• 34:08
  Like why do men do that? I don't understand.
• 34:10
  I was terrified of how, you know, I would look bald.
• 34:15
  I didn't know you've been at school now.
• 34:17
  I mean, Bruce Willis kind of made it perpetually cool.
• 34:20
  So, it's like go for it is a fuck what?
• 34:22
  He was. A fun guy.
• 34:23
  I don't know, I don't know what happened to him, just too many
• 34:26
  God awful movies by Jesus. But I mean, just some really
• 34:33
  awful movies. I mean, you're not pulling any
• 34:34
  punches today. Are you just gotta jump?
• 34:36
  Come on. On a die-hard was a masterpiece.
• 34:40
  You can't top die hard, but you can only be hash it and repeat
• 34:44
  it so many times. I think that series diet hard.
• 34:48
  But yeah, he's like Beverly Hills Cop.
• 34:51
  The first one was brilliant. The second one.
• 34:53
  Not so much. The third one was like a Pepsi
• 34:55
  commercial that third one did not need to happen but I don't
• 34:59
  know. I think the second was still
• 35:01
  really good. Okay.
• 35:03
  I'd have to watch it again but you know, my point was When I
• 35:07
  was honest about, you know what, what am I afraid of?
• 35:12
  Yeah, really. I mean, You know, it's like my
• 35:18
  wife said, look, you're a good person, you know, whether you
• 35:20
  have hair not, you know, does it really matter?
• 35:22
  You're still going to be, you know, attractive to me.
• 35:25
  Yeah, you know, should just do it.
• 35:28
  So you don't have this stress hanging over you.
• 35:31
  You don't want to have that furry halo around your head.
• 35:35
  So just go do it. And at the time, I was nervous
• 35:38
  and I was doing a couple I went I just went to the barbershop
• 35:41
  just said, just get it off. How would we when you chose to
• 35:45
  This, it was at least 20 years ago.
• 35:48
  So, how old do we do? Oh no, no, no, that's not true.
• 35:52
  If maybe 15 years ago. Okay.
• 35:55
  So in my, I don't want to date myself.
• 36:01
  But what the hell? Bo part in your mid-20s?
• 36:07
  Something like that little bit older than that, okay?
• 36:09
  Alright, so you did have quite a bit of time then with hair.
• 36:13
  Then it's not like it's like I don't know.
• 36:15
  Cause there's something, there's some people that start going
• 36:17
  like they get, they get receding hairline in.
• 36:19
  Like, I don't know, 19 or something and it's like really
• 36:22
  scary, you know. I mean it's so I understand I
• 36:25
  can I, yeah, I know I always yeah.
• 36:28
  I started having a little thin patch when I was like in
• 36:32
  college, I see. Okay.
• 36:34
  And so wasn't, you know, it total surprise and everything.
• 36:40
  So you know, but facing that you know, I just Look, I'm the same
• 36:46
  person one way or the other. If it's not like people are
• 36:49
  going to stop you in the street. Good be like, oh my God, like
• 36:52
  you have horns or something or antenna shooting out of your
• 36:54
  cranium? Yeah, it's funny.
• 36:55
  Like most of the guys that I've seen, who are bored, they always
• 36:59
  look really good. Like, they always have the right
• 37:01
  head shape for it and then I look at these guys.
• 37:04
  Like the thing that bothers me, is this haircut that a lot of
• 37:06
  men in that boomer generation tend to have where it's like so
• 37:11
  there'd be like in the 60s or something, right?
• 37:13
  And now have like, Hair all here but then it's completely bored
• 37:18
  here and I'm like, just shave. It just shave it.
• 37:20
  Yeah, the heel. The heel lawyer.
• 37:22
  Yeah, right. I don't get that.
• 37:25
  I don't get a dark you know, the Doctor Phil log ID.
• 37:28
  Yeah yeah. Yeah.
• 37:30
  I mean I think the thing is with those men of that generation
• 37:35
  that look is. Okay.
• 37:37
  That's cool. Yeah.
• 37:38
  I guess. I guess it's authoritative.
• 37:41
  I don't know. But yeah, I don't think that
• 37:43
  really Months power when I don't take any one more seriously if
• 37:48
  anything that's it unless seriously because I might shave
• 37:50
  that like please I can't say yeah yeah yeah I mean yeah I
• 37:57
  just but I think you know when you face your fears and your
• 38:02
  honest about why you have it, it makes you kind of bulletproof to
• 38:07
  it happening again. It's true.
• 38:09
  That's true. That's that's kind of what I was
• 38:11
  trying to get at so What else you got for me?
• 38:16
  I know I'm digressing a little too much now.
• 38:17
  You know. That's fine.
• 38:18
  It's fine. I've I should I should have
• 38:21
  asked the question already. Let's get your thoughts on.
• 38:25
  Oh, it's all right. Now I'm just been enjoying the
• 38:29
  conversation if I'm honest. But yeah, I'd like to know you
• 38:32
  appreciate it. You know, your eyes.
• 38:35
  Thank you, sir. What are your thoughts on
• 38:38
  companies that use informal language on social media?
• 38:42
  So, I've got a couple examples here like McDonald's burger King
• 38:45
  Wendy's is quite famous for it. Now, they are very successful
• 38:48
  with this but I guess what I'm asking you really is.
• 38:52
  Do you think it hurts their image?
• 38:53
  Because what they'll often do is they'll have someone or a couple
• 38:58
  of people that are in charge of it and they you know they just
• 39:01
  go they always do right. And here's the thing a couple of
• 39:04
  times it's got them in trouble, not the time but sometimes
• 39:09
  they'll say something like there was there was something
• 39:11
  recently. Yes, we did that a comma B.
• 39:14
  Act as it was national women's day.
• 39:17
  Was that? It?
• 39:17
  That's it. That's the one.
• 39:19
  Yeah, you Woman's Place is in the kitchen, not for me.
• 39:23
  Yeah, honey. Thank God.
• 39:25
  They didn't do something about Black History Month.
• 39:29
  Here's an interesting thing about that though.
• 39:32
  Do you remember the company that did Ashley, could you, I think
• 39:36
  I'll start saying, I don't remember exactly thinking.
• 39:38
  Yeah, I think you're right. I think it was Burger King.
• 39:40
  I'd have to double-check that afterwards actually.
• 39:42
  But anyway, and so I looked at that two ways.
• 39:46
  My marketing mind said this is clever.
• 39:50
  Now bear with me. Okay, I don't disagree that it's
• 39:53
  awful. But here's the thing, what they
• 39:56
  did is they got everyone's attention with that.
• 39:58
  And then when they drop down to the comment threads, that's
• 40:01
  where they put the second part of the comment where they
• 40:05
  redeemed it, right? But everyone was still fixated
• 40:08
  on that first thing. It was like okay we see what you
• 40:11
  did there but it still till dodgy placement or national
• 40:17
  women's day. It's not a good look for you.
• 40:20
  So part of me was like they got everyone's attention then the
• 40:24
  other side of me was but you know not everyone is going to
• 40:27
  see that second part and it almost feels like yeah.
• 40:32
  Like if anything I would have done it in the same tweet.
• 40:34
  I feel like if you're if you're just looking at like how to kind
• 40:37
  of do it in a playful way because that's what they wanted
• 40:41
  to do. They wanted to be playful and
• 40:44
  Backfired and it got them in hot water.
• 40:47
  Okay? My thoughts about the whole
• 40:49
  Burger, King attempted advertising attempted while into
• 40:55
  advertising, it's an attempt to advertising.
• 40:59
  I see, you're not a fun. You're not fat at all.
• 41:02
  I'm a huge, huge junk food fan. So, I mean, I love freaking
• 41:10
  bacon. Egg and cheese croissant.
• 41:12
  Are you kidding? How dare he Good, they are for
• 41:15
  use another story, but I think they've done some really good
• 41:20
  smart marketing things, but I think that was an example of not
• 41:25
  really thinking it through. And this is what happens when
• 41:29
  people talk about inclusivity in the importance of diversity.
• 41:34
  This is what happens when you have a marketing company.
• 41:36
  And I'm not casting aspersions at the individual marketing
• 41:39
  company because I don't know them, I don't know who they are,
• 41:42
  and I don't know if what I'm saying is Applicable to them.
• 41:47
  So let me say that first in all fairness, but I mean, really,
• 41:53
  this is something that should have been more carefully,
• 41:55
  vetted, in my view of that really could have for all.
• 42:01
  I know it could have hurt financially for all I know, I
• 42:04
  don't know if it did. Nah, Nah.
• 42:07
  If anything, like, they probably all sales to be honest.
• 42:11
  That's how these things, right? I mean, there could be a lot of
• 42:15
  people who were saying, you know, look, Is going to go to
• 42:17
  Burger King and I don't want to do it.
• 42:19
  Yeah. But like it's not going to go
• 42:21
  there anymore. You know what, like I said this
• 42:23
  to another guest on the show before.
• 42:24
  Like I remember when Primark got done for all that stuff with
• 42:29
  unethical work practices in India and Bangladesh and stuff,
• 42:35
  right? And their sales actually went
• 42:37
  up, I think like 50 percent or maybe even more than that, when
• 42:41
  that whole thing happened. Yeah.
• 42:43
  So does not, it doesn't always come out.
• 42:46
  Out there with no, no shot. No.
• 42:48
  I mean obviously there are instances when people.
• 42:51
  Yeah, like the business just loses a tiny amount of money.
• 42:54
  Like it does happen, but I feel like we've really well
• 42:57
  established Brands particularly, that of like Burger King or
• 43:00
  something like it. A lot of people know that that's
• 43:03
  one person operating that channel and it doesn't represent
• 43:09
  the views of the company. I mean, you know, I mean like
• 43:12
  it's well they're saying it does though because it's got their
• 43:15
  brand name on it. So, whoever whatever agency is
• 43:19
  in charge of that social media channel, which is what it would
• 43:25
  be. It would be a marketing agency
• 43:28
  or Ad Agency. See see, that's perfect though
• 43:32
  because if it's an agency employee being paid by Burger
• 43:36
  King, then first of all, the ages, all Races full, it's the
• 43:39
  agency doesn't vote then and also they would get fired for
• 43:42
  that. I'd imagine stuff that it
• 43:44
  depends, it depends, if they lost a lot of money.
• 43:46
  Money or if they saw their profits, go up as a result of,
• 43:50
  they had increased ability to thank you for your great
• 43:57
  business controversy creates cash in some instances, not
• 44:04
  always. So if you go courting
• 44:06
  controversy, it's going to blow up in your face as what happened
• 44:10
  to Donald Trump knives. No longer in office.
• 44:12
  So he's got a slew of. Yeah, but he don't care
• 44:16
  business-wise. He's probably set himself up for
• 44:20
  and his family for years. I mean I fully believe that
• 44:24
  whole presidency was not he did not care.
• 44:27
  I don't think about being president I think he cared about
• 44:29
  what it would do for his business interests and his
• 44:31
  connection or well. You know, that's very, very
• 44:34
  clear to anyone who follows the money Trail.
• 44:37
  If you just whether you're Republican or Democrat, whether
• 44:40
  you think he's the Messiah or a lunatic if you he's a
• 44:45
  businessman he always. Has been always, will be well,
• 44:48
  in my opinion, in my view, he portrays one or portrait, he
• 44:55
  betrays a businessman, right? I mean, man, declared bankruptcy
• 44:58
  at least six or seven times. He's also made a lot of money as
• 45:02
  well. They like, I'm like would have
• 45:04
  made the New York Times. I think it was actually did a
• 45:08
  study with forensic accounting and found that if he had just
• 45:12
  taken the money that his father gave him and just put it in a
• 45:15
  bank account, lived off the Interest he would have made more
• 45:19
  money to Denny then all these Trump ice, Trump Pizza.
• 45:25
  Trump University, that was a big one.
• 45:28
  Oh my God. Horrible debacle.
• 45:32
  But trouble bags people that were from Suits.
• 45:36
  Trump suit sighs. Yes, yeah, it does yeah, yeah,
• 45:42
  yeah. He had some suits their you
• 45:44
  could get ties, who's The ice or the water.
• 45:49
  The bottled water. Wow, I didn't know we make
• 45:53
  products like oh, so I'm more than I can remember and I'm sure
• 45:59
  he would stay there all a wild success but what do you know
• 46:03
  make of that pizza? I think it was Eva Pizza Hut or
• 46:06
  Dominos? Yeah the piece of commercial.
• 46:08
  Yeah. Where he ate the pizza, the
• 46:10
  wrong way. We just think of that.
• 46:12
  He may have been. He was eating it correctly, I
• 46:15
  don't do it. It's a piece of art that.
• 46:17
  Come on. No.
• 46:18
  One eats a piece of that. That that's that's just
• 46:20
  shocking. Could he could?
• 46:23
  He could think it's correct. I don't know why.
• 46:26
  I don't put anything. Everyone knows that the bread
• 46:29
  part is the worst part. That's just fact.
• 46:32
  Maybe you wanted to get it over with, I don't know.
• 46:34
  But what was my point, I don't remember anymore.
• 46:38
  So we were talking about the sorry but nice place my for I
• 46:43
  hijacked that it will talking about the controversy
• 46:45
  controversy controversy, He doesn't always come to your
• 46:48
  advantage. You know what I think it is,
• 46:50
  though? Like sorry to cut in, but I do
• 46:52
  want to throw one thing out there.
• 46:55
  No, no. I think it's I think it's
• 46:58
  changed over time, but here's a really good example in the UK
• 47:02
  years. And years ago we have a
• 47:04
  chocolate brand called your key, right?
• 47:08
  So really hard. Yes, I'll clip, right?
• 47:11
  Yeah, the to breaker, I remember that and we had an advertising
• 47:16
  Campaign in the mid-2000s where it was like, your key.
• 47:21
  It's not for girls and it really went as far as to have basically
• 47:24
  there was one advert where a girl walked in and she was
• 47:27
  dressed like a man. She had that mustache and
• 47:29
  everything in. This guy's asking her a ton of
• 47:31
  questions before he agrees to sell this your keyboard and then
• 47:34
  the end he finds her out and he's like it's not for girls and
• 47:37
  here's the thing. Like a lot of people were
• 47:40
  offended by it but like it did really good business for them.
• 47:43
  They made a lot of money from it and they were even clever as to
• 47:46
  Because your key is famously in a blue wrapper, right?
• 47:50
  So, they may be, I remember, they made a female version.
• 47:53
  Yeah, pin pink. And they made a lot of sales
• 47:55
  from that. Now, here's the thing.
• 47:57
  But then Society was very different.
• 48:00
  So like a lot of women did not fight that.
• 48:02
  I'm sure plenty of women. Found it offensive but a lot of
• 48:05
  women didn't care and find it. Funny like in the UK we love to
• 48:07
  have a joke. We love to make fun of ourselves
• 48:10
  and it's we consider it banter. But I think over the years
• 48:14
  that's changed a lot and For instance, that advert.
• 48:17
  Now, you could never do that. You, you you would you be out of
• 48:22
  business the next day. So I think there's a site.
• 48:24
  My point is society, standards have changed significantly.
• 48:27
  I think more people are waking up in some ways you have to as a
• 48:35
  marketing professional. If you're going to work with
• 48:38
  accounts like that, hmm. Or tackle, those types of
• 48:42
  subjects, you got to be able to Kind of listen to the breathing
• 48:49
  of society and be able to kind of read between the lines and I
• 48:54
  mean, on the one hand you couldn't have today a show like
• 49:00
  all in the family or The Jeffersons or Sanford and Son.
• 49:05
  Because actually if you were to watch any of those shows by
• 49:08
  today's standards they would be considered wildly radical.
• 49:13
  What? What do you think?
• 49:14
  Sysm races. What do you think about?
• 49:18
  Because here's a, here's the thing that's been happening a
• 49:20
  lot lately. Is that like you're right?
• 49:22
  Yeah. Obviously they were a product of
• 49:23
  their time and and Society was very different, right?
• 49:26
  But by today's standards, like a lot of these shows and now being
• 49:30
  pulled from networks. And people are so it is a good
• 49:33
  example in the UK, we have a comedy duo of Matt, Lucas and
• 49:38
  David walliams, and they did. They'd done shows like a little
• 49:40
  Britain. I've seen them come fly with me,
• 49:43
  right? And these laws are sure this
• 49:44
  great prayer meeting. I wish they had more seasons in
• 49:49
  the late 2000s and early 2010's. They did all these different
• 49:52
  shows and can fly. We've the last one they did, but
• 49:56
  I love Matt. Lucas short little bald-headed
• 49:59
  guy, right? Yeah, he's faced fantastic, but
• 50:01
  I love that guy and he's always hungry.
• 50:03
  I love them. But the issue that they had was
• 50:07
  that they did a lot of like black facing stereotyping all of
• 50:11
  these things. And now people are saying that
• 50:13
  their stuff should not be shown at all.
• 50:16
  It should be banned from places like Netflix and stuff.
• 50:20
  That you know, if Netflix lists that as a program you can watch.
• 50:24
  Then they should be boycotted. Like well what do you think
• 50:27
  about that happening? Here's the thing as of March, 20
• 50:35
  21 which is 216 2021. If I go and look and I have done
• 50:42
  this, I did I'd actually a did it years ago if you go back.
• 50:46
  Back and you look at the old Amos and Andy TV shows, or the
• 50:51
  old Charlie Chan movies or whatever, it was try to watch
• 50:56
  them. No, I don't know about anybody
• 50:58
  else. I can only speak for myself, but
• 51:00
  watching the old Amos and Andy TV shows hearing them on the
• 51:04
  radio. Was brutal.
• 51:08
  Brutal you're watching that on TV we're listening to that on
• 51:15
  the radio if you're an African-American person trying
• 51:19
  to build a life to you it's like a kick.
• 51:22
  It's like a kink in your nether region, it couldn't be me.
• 51:26
  It couldn't be more offensive, it could be more degrading and
• 51:30
  insulting to be an intelligent adult and just see some people
• 51:36
  who look like you. It is absolute absolute, you
• 51:41
  know, hydrocephalic morons. You know, completely desperate
• 51:46
  completely dependent on the welfare of others, you know?
• 51:49
  There was one, I remember listening to you, can come
• 51:52
  clean, my portrait for two dollars or something.
• 51:55
  Oh, I sure will be there on time.
• 51:57
  Just horribly insulting, everybody should listen to those
• 52:01
  or watch them to understand, you know, how any, why would anybody
• 52:05
  get upset over this? So, I mean, you know, I don't
• 52:09
  know how Matt Lucas and the other gentleman.
• 52:11
  They feel about it but I think you have to look at it like
• 52:14
  Could this hurt people who are struggling today in 2021, and
• 52:21
  maybe 10 or 20 years ago, you didn't know about it.
• 52:24
  You know, you do, we didn't have that Insight or we didn't care
• 52:28
  if we hurt someone. So I think you have to look at
• 52:30
  that and just say, look if it's possible, you could really hurt
• 52:34
  someone who's just trying to live an honest life.
• 52:37
  You don't need to rub their noses in it, you know what I
• 52:40
  mean? If that's the case, then it's in
• 52:43
  poor taste. It's time to Move on.
• 52:45
  If it's something that could somehow walk the tightrope in a
• 52:48
  very careful way. Okay, be very careful.
• 52:54
  Make sure you test this out. On some people who would
• 52:57
  experience that, you know, like the whole Burger King, what
• 53:01
  Woman's Place is in the kitchen. Well, if you're a woman who came
• 53:04
  from an abusive relationship and yeah, always kitchen sleeping
• 53:08
  over the grill and not appreciated.
• 53:10
  You could look at that and go feel like I really don't need
• 53:13
  this. Hmm.
• 53:14
  I really don't need this. It's just it's like rubbing it
• 53:18
  in my face or something. It's interesting as well because
• 53:22
  like, I remember it's mildly have a reaction.
• 53:24
  That's the thing Christian. Now, they have a reaction and
• 53:27
  now, they could be on social media and it could be vocal, and
• 53:31
  it can have more followers and it can carry more weight whereas
• 53:34
  before you would hurt people and you would never know and with
• 53:39
  what we were talking about in regards to like how Society
• 53:42
  changes. Like, I remember a time in the
• 53:43
  UK Probably, I think it was in the 2000s.
• 53:47
  I can't remember exactly. Maybe the early 2010's but there
• 53:49
  was a point where there was this joke about like huh.
• 53:52
  You know, go make me a sandwich woman in the kitchen.
• 53:56
  There was just this joke which I never really found that funny.
• 53:59
  I mean, it was, you know, it was what it was.
• 54:01
  But it was, it was just a joke, a passing thing and then you
• 54:05
  move on, right? But I never looked at the time,
• 54:09
  as being sexist the maybe that's because I'm a man, you know, I
• 54:13
  think in more recent times with, In this happen with that, BLM I
• 54:16
  start to look at things more, from other people's
• 54:20
  perspectives, now, or maybe it's just another thing.
• 54:22
  But like, I do tend to focus on these things.
• 54:25
  A lot more than I did when I was growing up as a teenager like I,
• 54:28
  I kind of just looked at my, my friends, you know, female
• 54:30
  friends, I had or, or black friends, for instance, and see
• 54:34
  if they were offended and they never seem to care.
• 54:37
  But then again, I never asked him about it, like properly,
• 54:40
  right? And they could have been so they
• 54:42
  could have been a nerd to it. Yeah.
• 54:44
  Yeah, maybe deep down they did feel bad, but they just so, you
• 54:47
  know. It's it's like you had the
• 54:50
  recent Piers Morgan thing where he came to the defense of people
• 54:56
  jumping on me again, Mark, all and say, which I didn't see the
• 55:00
  clip. So, I don't know what was said,
• 55:02
  again, you know what it was very simple, right?
• 55:05
  He was challenged by another person on his show, and the guy
• 55:11
  made fantastic arguments and made Piers Morgan look.
• 55:14
  Because Piers Morgan has harassed.
• 55:17
  Mega Markle fee is this? Yeah.
• 55:21
  And you're the one, the one time that someone caused a calls out
• 55:26
  Piers Morgan and just says facts, and just pulls him out on
• 55:29
  it. He decides that he can't take it
• 55:33
  and decides to walk off and quits the show.
• 55:35
  And it's like, you know what, like that that sums him up as a
• 55:38
  person. I don't think here in the UK,
• 55:40
  none of us liked him. We were over the moon when he
• 55:43
  went to the states for a while, And then you sent him back to
• 55:46
  us. So, thanks for that the problem.
• 55:49
  No, probably bounce back and be a regular on Fox news or no
• 55:52
  chance, no chance. I mean, I would controversially
• 55:58
  in terms of ratings and controversy, he'll say things
• 56:00
  occasionally that, you know, get people interested.
• 56:02
  But there's always a line with these things.
• 56:05
  It's like you said before like, you know, controversy does
• 56:07
  create cash in certain instances and a lot of the time, I mean,
• 56:12
  Pete don't get me wrong, Piers Morgan for the Just objectively
• 56:15
  is a good host of a show. He can hold a debate and he'll
• 56:20
  often have a good conversation with people.
• 56:22
  But the problem is he does also attack people and is unfair a
• 56:26
  lot of time with and maybe he's just doing that because he knows
• 56:31
  it will get attention. He knows, you know it's worked
• 56:33
  many times over the years, maybe it's because of his newspaper
• 56:36
  background. You know, he worked for many
• 56:38
  years for the news of the world and and these other newspapers
• 56:41
  and you know, that's what Paparazzi does is her.
• 56:44
  Nice people and write liable and all this stuff.
• 56:47
  So who's News of the World? Actually a newspaper.
• 56:50
  It was for a long time. Yeah.
• 56:52
  And then they went out of business and they became the
• 56:57
  mail on Sunday. I believe that was that is that
• 57:00
  considered a legitimate newspaper in the UK, or is it
• 57:03
  considered like the National Enquirer?
• 57:06
  Would you mean in terms of legitimate like something you
• 57:09
  should take seriously or just a joke?
• 57:11
  Yeah, yeah. Is it something that you take
• 57:13
  seriously or do you look at it is like the celebrity.
• 57:16
  Gossip tabloid type of thing, you know, you'd line your parrot
• 57:21
  cage with it or whatever. See, here's the thing in the
• 57:23
  UK's, interesting. You ask that question because
• 57:27
  when you take The Daily Mail or the Sun, newspapers, like this,
• 57:32
  they are tabloids. That's what they're officially
• 57:35
  are. But a lot of those newspapers
• 57:38
  contain the political undertones, or even political
• 57:43
  stories and your people will listen to that or read it.
• 57:47
  And take it as fact, which is first of all worrying, secondly,
• 57:52
  they'll base their opinions on that and they always print
• 57:56
  things that are liable. Not factual.
• 58:00
  They here's a really good example of something that the
• 58:02
  Daily Mail. Did years ago about 10 years
• 58:04
  ago, they printed a story on the front page where it said, 80% of
• 58:11
  school children are from an Islamic background or our
• 58:16
  Islamic or something, right? And because the de Mayo is very
• 58:18
  famous for being against immigration and stuff like that,
• 58:21
  like, you know, xenophobia okay. Yeah, yeah.
• 58:23
  Well, you know, not necessarily other not necessarily support in
• 58:27
  that but they print stuff. Tough, which gets people riled
• 58:31
  up, let's put it that way and okay because of that incites, a
• 58:37
  lot of, I mean, I don't know, it's the kind of the Chicken and
• 58:41
  the Egg thing. Do you blend the people that
• 58:43
  read it, or do you blame the source like it's blowing up
• 58:46
  Source because they're doing something that they know is
• 58:48
  wrong? I don't want to get you off to
• 58:52
  off your topic so I can write down my points.
• 58:55
  I don't forget if you want. Go ahead.
• 58:57
  No no, it's fine continue. You, okay?
• 59:00
  One of my first jobs out of college actually, was at a
• 59:03
  newspaper. I don't remember when the hell
• 59:05
  it was, but some, some point I worked for this particular
• 59:10
  newspaper and I'll never forget the managing editor came up to
• 59:17
  me. And I remember the managing
• 59:19
  editor saying on the front page of every newspaper it bleeds it
• 59:25
  leads. And the person said I want to
• 59:28
  see On every newspaper, either a car that's plowed into a tree or
• 59:34
  somebody splattered all over the road or or or, you know, some
• 59:39
  some you know, 90 year olds, having their 90th birthday party
• 59:43
  or something. Or I want to see a water skiing
• 59:46
  squirrel, or some nonsense like that.
• 59:48
  Yeah. If it's like a local newspaper
• 59:50
  or something, and it doesn't matter.
• 59:52
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 59:54
  And I remember just feeling like, I don't really feel What
• 59:59
  about that? There's a bipedal with, you
• 1:00:02
  know, hopefully some kind of brains between my ears and I
• 1:00:05
  actually remembered them sending me on one or two stories to go
• 1:00:09
  covered that, I didn't feel comfortable with.
• 1:00:13
  I might have told you what I remember going it was like some
• 1:00:15
  couple that was having like their 105th birthday.
• 1:00:18
  Did I tell you that one? I don't think so.
• 1:00:20
  They were buck naked. I kid you not.
• 1:00:28
  Oh wow. How did how did you deal with
• 1:00:31
  Asian fish? Day answered the door.
• 1:00:33
  Buck Naked. I was supposed to go and I went
• 1:00:37
  with a photographer. How do you how old am I now?
• 1:00:41
  How old were you? Pretty doggone young cuz it was
• 1:00:45
  like one of my first jobs out of college.
• 1:00:47
  I don't remember, wow of college.
• 1:00:49
  Okay, so you were at least of age.
• 1:00:50
  It wasn't like no? Yeah yeah.
• 1:00:52
  I was in my 20s. I don't remember exactly the
• 1:00:55
  dance. Okay.
• 1:00:56
  But anyway, I went to the host with her.
• 1:01:02
  We didn't have GPS back then, I don't think so.
• 1:01:05
  I went to the house. Took me like an hour to get
• 1:01:07
  there. The photographer's following me
• 1:01:08
  all around because I'm trying to figure out how to how to get to
• 1:01:11
  the home. So I go there and I knock on the
• 1:01:14
  door of their older couple obviously having their 105th
• 1:01:17
  birthday and I don't remember who came to the door first but
• 1:01:23
  butt-naked I walk into the house.
• 1:01:27
  The other person is there there, butt naked to the 105.
• 1:01:31
  So forget about any kind of wild.
• 1:01:34
  This is, this is great. You know, if anything that would
• 1:01:38
  turn you off for like the next two to three weeks.
• 1:01:43
  And I just remember thinking I went out to the photographer and
• 1:01:46
  I told the photographer, what was happening?
• 1:01:48
  And he said, oh yeah, we can't, we can't do that.
• 1:01:52
  He's like, we could shoot them and just do a hit, you know?
• 1:01:55
  Do this headshots blowing out the candle, but it's not going
• 1:01:58
  to look, right? They don't have their marbles.
• 1:02:01
  He's like, if anything, we need to call the Department of Health
• 1:02:04
  and or something, and tell them, these people come to the door
• 1:02:07
  but naked. They don't, they don't, they
• 1:02:09
  don't did, you know, have they been a Sadat do blurred out?
• 1:02:13
  I don't know if those are something always.
• 1:02:15
  This is that not an option? Let's just say we didn't do the
• 1:02:21
  story. Okay.
• 1:02:22
  Yeah, fair enough. I mean I was probably a good
• 1:02:25
  deal heavier back then and probably a good deal less
• 1:02:31
  even-keeled as I am now that I'm older more mellow so I was
• 1:02:35
  probably a little bit more short tempered back then and probably
• 1:02:38
  a good 40, 50 pounds heavier, you know.
• 1:02:41
  So I was probably just like I'm not Hi, I'm not going to do this
• 1:02:44
  and I know, I don't think that's unreasonable.
• 1:02:46
  I think most people would be like, you know what, this stay
• 1:02:50
  worth it. You know what I mean?
• 1:02:52
  You got to know your own barometer.
• 1:02:54
  I think I told you there was one time I had a digital marketing
• 1:02:58
  client called me up and he was a young hip cool guy.
• 1:03:02
  He knew what digital marketing was.
• 1:03:04
  He knew all about SEO. We actually wanted to engage in
• 1:03:08
  text marketing which blew my mind that he wanted.
• 1:03:11
  He knew what it was he wanted to do it.
• 1:03:13
  He wanted e-commerce everything. He had a realistic budget, it
• 1:03:17
  was great. And I thought I got to know what
• 1:03:21
  it is that you do. And he was very honest.
• 1:03:24
  Well, I'm opening a new offices in your city.
• 1:03:27
  So I went have a very modern website.
• 1:03:29
  You you look like a very serious-minded, professional.
• 1:03:31
  I really want to work with you. I like your credentials or it's
• 1:03:34
  great. What is what type of business
• 1:03:36
  you told me and my heart sank it was business the escort agency A
• 1:03:44
  new one. Is it, is it illegal escorting
• 1:03:48
  in history and he had a first, you had a professional
• 1:03:50
  photographer. So all the photo imagery would
• 1:03:53
  be very tasteful very well LED. Everything is escort services
• 1:03:58
  legal in u.s. I know prostitution is MM but is
• 1:04:01
  escorting. Yeah, I don't know if it was at
• 1:04:04
  the time when I wear I'm okay. But I remember feeling uncertain
• 1:04:09
  about it. Yes.
• 1:04:12
  And I remember I actually told him alms I said you know I've
• 1:04:16
  got so many calls to the, I need you to do, I need to call you
• 1:04:18
  back, but I got why did call him back?
• 1:04:23
  Because I've always believed in being very honest.
• 1:04:25
  Okay. So I hung up the phone, got off
• 1:04:28
  the phone with them, I should say.
• 1:04:29
  And I went to talk to my wife and I said, honey, this guy's
• 1:04:32
  got a very good budget. It would take care of us for
• 1:04:35
  quite some time, okay? And now we're not talking to
• 1:04:39
  One-Shot deal, he's going to need all kinds of ongoing
• 1:04:42
  maintenance. He's going to need you know he
• 1:04:44
  wants to engage in PPC. I paid advertising and, you
• 1:04:48
  know, managing everything would be very good.
• 1:04:51
  She's alright. What is it hit me?
• 1:04:53
  Because I can tell ya an escort agency and she just she gave me
• 1:04:58
  this look with like one eyebrow just went up.
• 1:05:01
  And I'll just like, all right, the money, the money, my
• 1:05:09
  quarterback and I just said, sir, I got to be honest with
• 1:05:12
  you, I'd love to work with you because you seem like a great
• 1:05:14
  guy but I see. In good conscience.
• 1:05:17
  Do this visit. This is why I like talking to
• 1:05:19
  you, because you think the same way that I do.
• 1:05:21
  It's split the business side. Yeah.
• 1:05:24
  The business cycle. Would you have taken what I'm
• 1:05:26
  getting to that. So, it's split because the
• 1:05:30
  business side of you, yeah, it's like this is good money.
• 1:05:32
  This is good work. This this would help things for
• 1:05:35
  a while and then the other side that the conscience, the not
• 1:05:39
  just conscious, but also business to like you're thinking
• 1:05:42
  about reputation, if I'm associated with this or does
• 1:05:44
  this do for my future? - what does this do for, right?
• 1:05:48
  So on and so forth. You can't put it on a portfolio,
• 1:05:52
  right? It's going to drag you down, but
• 1:05:55
  you're talking about so much infrastructure that you would
• 1:05:58
  put into it. He was talking to me about
• 1:06:01
  putting his documentation and receipts to cloud storage.
• 1:06:05
  Oh wow. He wanted to have a newsletter.
• 1:06:08
  That would be automated. He wanted to have on a kid.
• 1:06:12
  Like I said, this guy was a great client.
• 1:06:14
  He wanted to You know, a Weekly Newsletter.
• 1:06:18
  He wanted to ask text, text advertising.
• 1:06:22
  You don't hate Christian. Guess who's in your town today?
• 1:06:26
  Wink wink, you know. Wait, when can you explain a
• 1:06:28
  little bit more about text advertising?
• 1:06:30
  Somebody familiar with this out, what we'll see you are what Nam
• 1:06:34
  know what medium are you talking about?
• 1:06:36
  Come on, you have a phone. Oh you mean text message.
• 1:06:40
  Oh, okay interest so like the CRV guy.
• 1:06:43
  So personalized text messages like If the CRV guy, Christian.
• 1:06:48
  Yeah, so you would get a personalized text message, you
• 1:06:52
  know, letting you know who was in your town?
• 1:06:55
  Who could, you know, take care of, you know, the most important
• 1:07:00
  needs I guess. But it's like his older version
• 1:07:03
  of simple. Essentially, it's too, but we're
• 1:07:06
  talking about text advertising, a newsletter coupon codes.
• 1:07:12
  Moving bookkeeping to cloud storage.
• 1:07:16
  Automating, email responses. I mean, the guy was will he
• 1:07:20
  wanted to do everything except bid on government contracts,
• 1:07:24
  which obviously you're not going to be able to bid on government
• 1:07:26
  contracts for solicitation openly.
• 1:07:28
  Anyway, you do that in, you know, in some back room or
• 1:07:31
  something. See, I'm still interested in
• 1:07:33
  because escalating, as far as I'm aware, I'm pretty sure it's
• 1:07:37
  legal owner, most places because it's, it's what it's that step
• 1:07:42
  further. It's like it, can you guarantee
• 1:07:44
  that it doesn't is, or is not Not connected to prostitution,
• 1:07:47
  if it's just escort services. That's legal in many places and
• 1:07:52
  it's yeah maybe it's not, maybe it's frowned upon but as a
• 1:07:55
  business is legitimate for the most part and you can you
• 1:07:59
  compile be list that and not have any issues and that I'm
• 1:08:02
  pretty sure that's why there's a lot of websites that exist with.
• 1:08:05
  No. Yeah I mean that that in of
• 1:08:07
  itself being able to have a publicly listed website and be
• 1:08:10
  able to do that and register because presumably had to
• 1:08:12
  register his business like everyone else officially so.
• 1:08:16
  Yeah, I mean he's cool head around it.
• 1:08:18
  I mean you could conceivably Get around.
• 1:08:20
  Yeah, but it did time, I couldn't in good conscience.
• 1:08:26
  Take him on as a client. No no I understand I think it
• 1:08:30
  depends on your circumstances, I mean, like I'll give a similar
• 1:08:33
  example, is not really the same but like I remember working for
• 1:08:35
  a company one time major company and one of the very first things
• 1:08:41
  they ask me to do it was a really small task but I was just
• 1:08:46
  a guy trying to kind of build my experience and they will Like,
• 1:08:49
  hey, we need you to do reputation management.
• 1:08:54
  That's what they called it reputation management and what
• 1:08:57
  skill do? Yeah, loads of companies do.
• 1:09:00
  It's very official thing, but here's the thing.
• 1:09:02
  What reputation management is, is essentially putting it
• 1:09:06
  nicely. It's creating fake reviews.
• 1:09:10
  They wanted me to create fake reviews that they would put on
• 1:09:13
  our website and other websites and that would either turn into
• 1:09:17
  testimonials or that winter. Into reviews that they were put
• 1:09:21
  on websites about us or in forums whatever to make us look
• 1:09:26
  good essentially and make it look legit.
• 1:09:28
  And I had to do this once a week every week and have to write
• 1:09:32
  like about 20 or 30 of them. And it weighed on my conscience,
• 1:09:38
  I really did because I knew that there were going to be people,
• 1:09:41
  you know, going on to that website or that Forum seeing
• 1:09:46
  those comments and be like, oh this must be legitimate and then
• 1:09:49
  going for it now, we weren't doing anything illegal, but in
• 1:09:53
  that part we were, we were not being truthful.
• 1:09:57
  We were being dishonest and I didn't like that.
• 1:09:58
  And I felt bad about that. And but here's the thing and
• 1:10:01
  this is why I bring it up because I was not in a position
• 1:10:04
  that I could really turn it away.
• 1:10:05
  I just started this job. It wasn't.
• 1:10:09
  I wasn't personally responsible for.
• 1:10:11
  It was the company who was, you know, taking it.
• 1:10:14
  So like they would get in trouble if they got found out,
• 1:10:16
  but I still felt bad because of my involvement in that.
• 1:10:20
  I didn't like it and I kind of vowed from that moment onwards
• 1:10:24
  that if I was ever to be working for any kind of a company and
• 1:10:27
  there's something I disagree with, I'm just not going to do
• 1:10:29
  it. So right, you thought you'd the
• 1:10:31
  time that you you had to do it precisely because I wasn't in a
• 1:10:36
  situation where I could turn it away.
• 1:10:37
  I couldn't leverage. It's not even like, I could go
• 1:10:40
  somewhere else or whatever. I was always my hands.
• 1:10:43
  And no, I was very much my hands were tied.
• 1:10:46
  I was like, two, three months into this job and it was like,
• 1:10:52
  either that job will be unemployed in a country that
• 1:10:54
  would not give you any support. Like I was smoking wood.
• 1:10:58
  So it sounds like you okay? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:00
  I was very much. I just did it, you know, it
• 1:11:05
  didn't it didn't last long, I think it's like two or three
• 1:11:07
  months of that and then eventually they just dropped it.
• 1:11:09
  But like it made me think it may and it's not like the end of the
• 1:11:13
  world, but it did really kind of make me think more about you
• 1:11:17
  because now I'm in a position, I can bargain, you know?
• 1:11:20
  And I can and to be fair, if I was working for a company now I
• 1:11:25
  would refuse tasks if I disagree with the morally, I would say,
• 1:11:27
  no, I'm not doing that. And if they said well, we have
• 1:11:30
  to end the contract, then I would have no contract and Don't
• 1:11:33
  be afraid because I know I can find work elsewhere and I would
• 1:11:36
  be able to say, well, I left this job because they asked me
• 1:11:39
  to do this. And I think I told you there was
• 1:11:42
  some, did I tell you about the marketing agency interview?
• 1:11:45
  I went to where the initial person was like, 7 feet tall and
• 1:11:51
  would stand nose-to-nose with you.
• 1:11:53
  Do I tell you about that one? No, you told me told me about
• 1:11:56
  one, where there was a guy who had a bunch of female staff and
• 1:12:01
  it kind of seemed like he was not engaged in the interview at
• 1:12:04
  all and kept leaving and stuff. That was one I should have
• 1:12:07
  gotten up and just walked out of that right then.
• 1:12:10
  And there but tell us that one that one you just mentioned.
• 1:12:12
  That sounds interesting. Yeah that guy was like the
• 1:12:14
  Undertaker. Cool.
• 1:12:18
  Very very big guy and at the time I was heavier.
• 1:12:24
  Okay. And I had the long goatee and
• 1:12:27
  everything, I did shave. All this off with the covid and
• 1:12:30
  wearing all these masks and everything, but So this is, this
• 1:12:35
  is very recent, and know, this was actually quite some time
• 1:12:38
  ago. But I'm saying, I used to have
• 1:12:40
  the goatee all the time. It just sucks.
• 1:12:43
  So something to hide behind. Yeah.
• 1:12:45
  But so anyway, I go to this interview and I was familiar
• 1:12:49
  with the agency. I knew where they were, they had
• 1:12:52
  a very good location, you know. It was very it was reasonably
• 1:12:58
  close to home. It was in a very good location
• 1:13:01
  where you could take a boss or Whatever, if you needed to lots
• 1:13:07
  of, you know, little shops and everything and some good
• 1:13:10
  restaurants around would be a good place to work, you know I
• 1:13:13
  didn't some decent parking. What have you?
• 1:13:16
  So anyway I go to the interview at this marketing agency and the
• 1:13:22
  person who to interview me like seven feet tall, I'm like around
• 1:13:26
  61 and a half. If I wear boots or something I'm
• 1:13:29
  like 62 63 so he's towering. For me, and he's literally
• 1:13:34
  standing Just Adjust nose-to-nose with me.
• 1:13:37
  And I'm thinking, does he find me attractive?
• 1:13:40
  Is he trying to intimidate me? Because I could, you know, I can
• 1:13:45
  still take care of things, you know, if he's going to try to
• 1:13:48
  get, you know, physical with me, I can find a way to equal the
• 1:13:51
  equation. If I need to, obviously, I don't
• 1:13:54
  want to but you know, I don't know what's going on.
• 1:13:58
  This is uncomfortable. Why is he doing?
• 1:13:59
  This is very odd but anyway, he He took me in, and he's talking
• 1:14:05
  to me like this nose to nose for like, 10 minutes.
• 1:14:09
  Oh, you're right. Yeah, I'm not kidding.
• 1:14:12
  This is like 10. 15 minutes is going on.
• 1:14:14
  We just talking to me about my business, or my experience, or
• 1:14:19
  did you bring your resume with you?
• 1:14:21
  And he's looking at it, we're standing and he's looking at it,
• 1:14:23
  he's like right up, you know, in my face.
• 1:14:27
  And so finally we sat down, he walks me.
• 1:14:32
  Asked there's a table that had about ten young girls sitting
• 1:14:40
  around it. This is not an exaggeration.
• 1:14:42
  In any way there's about ten young girls look like they were
• 1:14:46
  in their teens but they were probably in their early 20s and
• 1:14:50
  they're all sitting around a table with phones.
• 1:14:54
  Okay. And they're doing the smiling
• 1:14:55
  and dialing thing where they're all sitting around.
• 1:14:58
  They have a picture water on the table and they're cold.
• 1:15:01
  Calling are all around this table, all young girls, no
• 1:15:04
  males. Okay.
• 1:15:06
  So then I walk past that and I see a roll of cubicles, and the
• 1:15:12
  role of cubicles is all filled with young young, man, who all
• 1:15:17
  look, you know, geeky, nerdy, you know, types of guys, and
• 1:15:22
  they're all working at Yours and I could tell what they were
• 1:15:25
  doing. I was looking and they were
• 1:15:26
  editing web sites and creating websites very, very quickly,
• 1:15:31
  very quickly. So I walk past those two setups,
• 1:15:36
  then I go into the room, the big seven foot tall guy sits next to
• 1:15:40
  me of course you know he sits in a chair that's like two feet
• 1:15:43
  away from me, you know. And then this other guy comes
• 1:15:49
  into the room who smaller than me.
• 1:15:51
  So you had to be like five You know, nothing of a comedy sketch
• 1:15:56
  in the moment. I was really, it could have been
• 1:15:59
  something I'd like Little Britain and then he comes in and
• 1:16:02
  he's like half my size and he comes in and he says, hi.
• 1:16:07
  I'm you know, my name is so-and-so and he's the money
• 1:16:10
  guy. He's basically the one in charge
• 1:16:12
  of this little agency. He manages all the money
• 1:16:16
  accounts, receivable accounts, payable advertising campaign
• 1:16:21
  spends and everything. He's the money guy.
• 1:16:23
  Obviously the bigger guys the enforcer, that's his role.
• 1:16:28
  So I'm sitting there, of course, the big guy doesn't give this
• 1:16:32
  guy copy of my resume I have to. Luckily I've got like ten copies
• 1:16:36
  because I knew the drill. So I gave the other guy, another
• 1:16:39
  copy of my resume. They sit there talking about me
• 1:16:42
  as if I'm not there. Then he starts talking about me.
• 1:16:46
  He starts talking about me, or he starts talking to me, rather
• 1:16:50
  about the role. So, we talked about the role of
• 1:16:53
  What the pay was the pay was. So, so it was like, hmm.
• 1:16:57
  All right, it's not terrible, but it's nothing that you would,
• 1:17:01
  you know, get excited about. Okay?
• 1:17:03
  It's if you could live, it would be all right.
• 1:17:06
  The work looked like, it could be enjoyable work, but then he
• 1:17:10
  goes into detail explaining to me how they worked at the
• 1:17:13
  marketing agency. He didn't, he said, how we use
• 1:17:16
  one layout for all websites, so that, you know, you can produce
• 1:17:21
  all the, all the websites very quickly.
• 1:17:24
  We do is we change out the text, we change out a handful of some
• 1:17:29
  of the images and we got to get it done, you know, within one to
• 1:17:34
  two hours so that we can produce, you know, at least you
• 1:17:39
  know, eight to ten websites per day.
• 1:17:42
  So there's none of this talking about SEO, none of this talk
• 1:17:47
  about writing blog posts or social media.
• 1:17:50
  They have to pay much more for that than you go to this.
• 1:17:52
  Other tier Go on and on. So he tells me all of that.
• 1:17:57
  I say, boy, that sounds fascinating.
• 1:17:59
  That's the deepest I've ever heard in my life.
• 1:18:01
  This is unbelievably fast. And I just say, you know what?
• 1:18:06
  I've got to be honest with you, I've had a few cups of coffee.
• 1:18:10
  Could you mind if I could? You could.
• 1:18:12
  I use the restroom? Yeah, he said.
• 1:18:15
  Yeah, but we don't have a restroom in our offices, where
• 1:18:18
  we work, because we don't want people wasting time with this
• 1:18:21
  thing. So you're going to have This is
• 1:18:24
  completely true. So he says you have to go and
• 1:18:27
  use the restroom for the office next to us which is in this
• 1:18:31
  middle hallway area. So I said, okay that's fine.
• 1:18:34
  Tell me how do I get there? So he said, well you're going to
• 1:18:36
  have to go through this hallway and then make a left and then a
• 1:18:39
  right and another left in this building and then you can go in
• 1:18:42
  there and use their restroom. So you know what I did.
• 1:18:45
  I went into their restroom. I wash my face, I found the
• 1:18:49
  nearest exit, I went out the back door.
• 1:18:51
  Yeah, and I went to go find my wife.
• 1:18:53
  Is that one of the cute little shops in your by?
• 1:18:55
  So how'd it go? How'd it go honey?
• 1:18:58
  I said oh well, it went just fine.
• 1:19:00
  Come on. Let's go home.
• 1:19:01
  And would you like to stop somewhere for lunch?
• 1:19:03
  Yeah. You just needed to go somewhere
• 1:19:06
  normal like with noble people and just just now I won't press.
• 1:19:11
  Yeah. There's I did have enough sense
• 1:19:14
  at the time to pick up as much swag on the way out.
• 1:19:18
  So this was quite some time ago so I still have it to other
• 1:19:22
  t-shirts. I still have their with their
• 1:19:25
  drinking, water bottle, that happened to be blue at the time
• 1:19:29
  and was a great water bottle. It's lasted me at least 10-15
• 1:19:32
  years, I've dropped about 15 times and never breaks.
• 1:19:35
  Oh, I see that the company that you went to this interview with,
• 1:19:39
  you took the stuff basically. Oh I took as much swag As I
• 1:19:42
  could get because it's free, of course, they're offering it to
• 1:19:45
  whoever is there. So I took a water drinking
• 1:19:48
  bottle, I took about 15 pens, I took a couple of opioids, a
• 1:19:51
  couple of t-shirts, I do that. That I do that.
• 1:19:55
  Well, why should I? Yeah.
• 1:19:57
  And I yeah, you could get some of the best Swag by going to
• 1:20:01
  these word camps and and what we used to call them Farms, they
• 1:20:06
  called Farms, but I just I just got my car and left and I
• 1:20:11
  figured while we were in this downtown area, let's can't find
• 1:20:14
  a cute little restaurant. And my wife would knew that she
• 1:20:17
  would always get. We've always go out for lunch
• 1:20:19
  someplace. Nice and unique.
• 1:20:21
  Whenever Dave had an interview, With the agency, whether I got
• 1:20:25
  to go offer or I didn't get an offer or I turned the offer
• 1:20:28
  down, we would always go out for lunch someplace really cool
• 1:20:31
  City. This place like reach out to you
• 1:20:33
  and be like hey where did you go?
• 1:20:35
  What the hell? Anything like that.
• 1:20:37
  Well, I applied I applied there, I'm fine.
• 1:20:41
  Yeah, I know, I know, but like, after this interview, right?
• 1:20:43
  So you walked out your like, that screwed?
• 1:20:45
  Yeah, absolutely yeah. Did they, you know, get in
• 1:20:49
  contact with you but I, hey, where are you would have?
• 1:20:52
  I would have given the big guy Burger.
• 1:20:53
  Third, if you'd followed me out, or do they call it the Jersey
• 1:20:57
  salute, but did they call, you know, or anything?
• 1:21:00
  No, nothing. So just radio silence after
• 1:21:02
  that, it's just, you know, and most agencies are like that.
• 1:21:06
  Actually, if you, if you were to do that, I would say most
• 1:21:10
  agencies. You'll never hear from them
• 1:21:11
  again. Or if they it, or if you don't
• 1:21:14
  have an offer, I've been to many.
• 1:21:17
  I had been, I should say, I had been to many agencies where you
• 1:21:21
  would interview and it would be like you Ever existed.
• 1:21:26
  So you don't take it personally, you just go and apply for.
• 1:21:28
  If you're someone who wants to work at these agencies and
• 1:21:32
  you're looking for work, then I would tell everybody apply for
• 1:21:35
  30 positions, a day in fill, your calendar with them.
• 1:21:39
  But now, that was because I got no like what was what was the
• 1:21:43
  best horses? This of this company level,
• 1:21:45
  where they produce in these websites, for every digital
• 1:21:48
  marketing agency, specifically targeting local, small, This
• 1:21:53
  owners and art galleries and solid guy.
• 1:21:57
  So, that's in explains why the websites could be pretty
• 1:21:59
  trashed. And because I stayed right
• 1:22:01
  there, the business owners and the art galleries to, in
• 1:22:04
  particular, they had no idea what SEO was.
• 1:22:08
  You couldn't begin to explain it to them, they're no interest,
• 1:22:10
  no, comprehension level of it. So I many experiences like that
• 1:22:17
  and they're fun to talk about because you pinpoint, what
• 1:22:19
  doesn't work and mistakes that business owners.
• 1:22:22
  Make, I Could directly there was one woman.
• 1:22:26
  I'll do I'll stop with this story but there was one because
• 1:22:31
  I Network like a beast and taught boot camps and workshops
• 1:22:35
  like crazy back then. So there was a realtor who would
• 1:22:40
  be at every networking event that I went to like like a
• 1:22:43
  hovering Specter she would be there.
• 1:22:46
  Whatever networking event you went to like a ghost or
• 1:22:49
  something she was always there. Just remarkable.
• 1:22:54
  And so anyway, one day she approaches me and she said, you
• 1:22:58
  know, I've seen you at all these networking events and and
• 1:23:01
  everything and I looked at your website and you seem like
• 1:23:04
  somebody actually cares about this stuff and you know, it's
• 1:23:08
  amazing and she said I've been, you know, working with my
• 1:23:11
  girlfriend who's a commercial realtor as well and an amateur,
• 1:23:15
  you know, web developer and you seem to know so much more and
• 1:23:18
  produce much higher quality work.
• 1:23:20
  So I'm thinking about maybe we could partner up somehow And so
• 1:23:24
  we talked to this coffee shop for a few minutes and then and
• 1:23:28
  everything. And she told me, she said well,
• 1:23:31
  okay, can I look at some of the work from your girlfriend so I
• 1:23:35
  took out my tablet. At the time, I look at it all of
• 1:23:39
  our websites for clients. Look, the same.
• 1:23:42
  They were gray box is filled with black text with no imagery
• 1:23:47
  at all. It was just a gray box with
• 1:23:50
  black text against a gray background.
• 1:23:53
  Now, she sold these for at least 3,000 to 5,000 each who's
• 1:24:01
  buying? Ah, yeah.
• 1:24:03
  Now, she would tell the, the, the client that, you know, hey,
• 1:24:08
  if you want to get to be number one in Google, we could take you
• 1:24:11
  there. Look at our incredible track
• 1:24:13
  record, we're all bogus, you know, made up people on and on
• 1:24:16
  and on and then what she would do is after she would deliver
• 1:24:20
  it, I researched this on my own so I could And out before, I got
• 1:24:24
  back to her girlfriend on whether or not, we would partner
• 1:24:26
  up together. So I researched this.
• 1:24:29
  So she had a burner phone so every time that she would do the
• 1:24:33
  website for the client, she would have a different phone
• 1:24:35
  number if you called it. No one would just go dude.
• 1:24:38
  The number you're tempted to call, you know.
• 1:24:41
  So anyway, she had a good racket going on 325 grand for website,
• 1:24:47
  that would take her about 15 minutes to get up and of course
• 1:24:51
  to small business owner, they do.
• 1:24:53
  Don't know what SEO is, they don't care.
• 1:24:56
  You know, I just need a website. I just need one, you know, it's
• 1:24:59
  on my to-do list or whatever, so the woman focused on sales over
• 1:25:05
  everything else, whether it was true or not was irrelevant.
• 1:25:09
  So she would sell on the basis of I can make you number one in
• 1:25:12
  Google, your sales are going to Skyrocket overnight.
• 1:25:16
  Here's all these testimonials from JT and and Alaska Camden
• 1:25:21
  Scout, right? Of course if Jay in Wisconsin,
• 1:25:24
  DJ and wherever on and on and on.
• 1:25:28
  And but she would get these people because her girlfriend
• 1:25:31
  was a realtor and this woman was a commercial realtor, so hello.
• 1:25:39
  She's getting people opening offices and stores and big
• 1:25:44
  Office Buildings. Five grand for dumb.
• 1:25:48
  Is nothing Spencer. Yeah I get it.
• 1:25:51
  It's like there's nothing so she would do it and then get change
• 1:25:56
  your phone number very quickly. So the the realtor wanted to
• 1:26:00
  work with me because I actually had a conscience and produced
• 1:26:03
  agency level work and so I told her I would be game for that I
• 1:26:08
  would throw in with her if she would, you know, work with me.
• 1:26:12
  But it was with the understanding that I would only
• 1:26:15
  do real work for real people. I Cut Corners.
• 1:26:19
  So my work would take more than 15 minutes.
• 1:26:22
  It would actually take a few weeks to, to create that.
• 1:26:26
  I would work hand-in-hand with the business owners and so on.
• 1:26:28
  Are you okay with that? And after that, I never saw her
• 1:26:31
  again. This were talking about scams
• 1:26:35
  that, what's your experience of scams?
• 1:26:37
  I know that's a pretty broad question, but you know, you've
• 1:26:39
  worked in business. So I've seen it all.
• 1:26:42
  I used to have curly hair just like you man.
• 1:26:44
  Where your hair isn't curly, but I used to have hair.
• 1:26:47
  I mean, you know, I've seen it all but I'll let please continue
• 1:26:49
  with your question. I want you to get a little bit
• 1:26:51
  more in deep with it and I'm just interested to know like
• 1:26:55
  what kind of scams you've come across both just in general and
• 1:27:00
  in business as well because obviously there's a long
• 1:27:02
  business scams out there but yeah.
• 1:27:04
  I've interviewed at marketing agencies, who wanted me to
• 1:27:08
  write. Real books for them on spec,
• 1:27:13
  which means for free. Hey doing yeah I wanted to I
• 1:27:18
  wanted to let that sink in for a minute to get your reaction
• 1:27:22
  because I knew you were going to do that.
• 1:27:23
  But yeah, that's so predictable a lot of larger agencies will do
• 1:27:32
  that when they Farm out for talent.
• 1:27:34
  That's the term that they call that.
• 1:27:37
  So remind me of the farm and I'll tell you another story.
• 1:27:40
  But, but anyway, I you shoot. I actually got a lot of
• 1:27:45
  interviews by go. To farms, and I would actually
• 1:27:48
  pick up freelance work going to farm Evil.
• 1:27:51
  All these marketing Farms. Exactly.
• 1:27:53
  That's what we always called them in marketing.
• 1:27:56
  Parlance back in the day. I back when Caesar was in power,
• 1:28:00
  a farming event would be advertised on Eventbrite meet
• 1:28:04
  up, Facebook LinkedIn, whatever, you'd see it advertised locally
• 1:28:11
  would be an open house event at a marketing agency.
• 1:28:15
  Come get your free pizza and free beer.
• 1:28:18
  Maybe they would show some pictures of some cool young
• 1:28:21
  people acting hip or whatever. It's kind of just a networking
• 1:28:24
  event then essentially, well, it might look like that, but if
• 1:28:27
  they had free pizza and free beer, it's a farm and it's a
• 1:28:31
  marketing agency. It would be a farming event.
• 1:28:35
  And what they're doing is they're saying, hey, you're cool
• 1:28:38
  young guy, you're going to want to meet who young women, you're
• 1:28:42
  going to want some free pizza. You're going to want free beer.
• 1:28:45
  So what? I would do is say we want to
• 1:28:47
  cast is Broad and that is possible.
• 1:28:51
  Mmm, that this marketing agency, know why you're there you.
• 1:28:56
  If you're interested in the services that we provide and
• 1:28:59
  working with us, you're going to want to talk to a hiring manager
• 1:29:03
  who will be at the event. Of course, to talk about how
• 1:29:07
  brilliant and incredible this agency is and how they just
• 1:29:11
  happen to be hiring for all these different positions.
• 1:29:15
  Knowing We got a couple of hundred young guys, odds are
• 1:29:19
  pretty strong that there's going to be, you know, some very
• 1:29:23
  interested applicants there. And so those are farming events
• 1:29:27
  you could, you know, by today's standards you would go to
• 1:29:31
  indeed, or Craigslist to look up.
• 1:29:33
  You know, agency, open house, or even Google it.
• 1:29:37
  Not today, you have covid. I mean, half the population
• 1:29:40
  believes, it's real, the other half doesn't, so I don't know,
• 1:29:43
  but I would be comfortable going to one right now and person
• 1:29:48
  myself, even if I were looking for that but But anyway, my the
• 1:29:56
  realtor story aside, I would go to these farming open houses all
• 1:30:02
  the time, and this is how you would pick up feeling.
• 1:30:05
  It's were as far as the full-time paid positions, they
• 1:30:10
  were usually seasonal were they would rotate you out every, you
• 1:30:14
  know, at the end of every season, so that you would never
• 1:30:16
  have to give you benefits. So, they would know very, very
• 1:30:21
  methodically what they're doing. Using you and kicking you to the
• 1:30:25
  curb before where you can accrue any kind of, you know, sick
• 1:30:29
  leave or annually or anything like that.
• 1:30:30
  Cutting sounds like the that's a scam.
• 1:30:33
  Roger skin to me. Now, I get that, I get that
• 1:30:36
  bake. A kind of sounds like the
• 1:30:38
  internship deal. That a lot of companies are
• 1:30:40
  doing now where they'll give you an internship of three mumps,
• 1:30:44
  they'll be free, you won't get paid for it, and then just at
• 1:30:47
  the end of that, they just rotate.
• 1:30:49
  They have no intention of giving you a job and they just go to
• 1:30:51
  the next person. Yeah.
• 1:30:53
  Yeah, yeah, I entertained. Yeah.
• 1:30:56
  I interned, it's as many places as I could find when I was a
• 1:30:59
  college student. But even back then I knew that
• 1:31:03
  like, look if you're not paying for my books or you're not
• 1:31:06
  giving me credit hours in a better, be at least three or I'm
• 1:31:09
  not lifting a finger to help you got to be at least correct,
• 1:31:13
  three credit hours or you're paying for these expensive.
• 1:31:17
  Books was remember college textbooks are always several
• 1:31:19
  hundred. You know, for per course.
• 1:31:23
  So either college credit or college textbooks and or pay me
• 1:31:29
  mmm? Otherwise I wouldn't even
• 1:31:31
  consider it. I would do the same thing.
• 1:31:32
  I would go in there and see what kind of Swag they had.
• 1:31:35
  If any, you know, if there's any free food or whatever.
• 1:31:38
  And then look for the bet, the bathroom and go out the back
• 1:31:41
  door, see you, you've got to, you've got to have your head
• 1:31:45
  screwed on tight, but yeah, internships are if they're if
• 1:31:50
  It's unpaid, yes, totally a scam and it's completely amoral.
• 1:31:55
  They should be ashamed of themselves, you know, and they
• 1:31:58
  know exactly what they're going to do.
• 1:32:00
  They're rotating you in and out before.
• 1:32:02
  You could get 40 hours a week or crew, any kind of sick, leave,
• 1:32:05
  or annual, leave your out the door, if you can get it at all,
• 1:32:09
  I don't know if the law mandates that now in the US, or not, or
• 1:32:14
  how that may have changed, you know?
• 1:32:18
  And I don't know how it is in the you Okay.
• 1:32:21
  But yeah, the labor laws to have a tendency to be very flexible
• 1:32:27
  but I wouldn't recommend that at all.
• 1:32:29
  It's very difficult out there. If you're a freelancer trying to
• 1:32:31
  earn a living, my I have a you know, a lot of empathy for
• 1:32:35
  Freelancers and I would love to train a freelancer like Rocky
• 1:32:39
  Balboa and just say you know, we're going to turn you into a
• 1:32:43
  lean mean freelancing machine. Here's what you're going to do
• 1:32:46
  is What You Won't Do. I think if anything this covid
• 1:32:50
  era Our has brought out the worst in many companies, because
• 1:32:53
  with my job hunting, I have seen some wild stuff, but here's just
• 1:32:58
  a few examples. Today, I saw a role which I
• 1:33:01
  suppose, it depends how you look at it on paper.
• 1:33:03
  I thought it was kind of wacky. So it's basically a barista /
• 1:33:08
  marketer and I was like, how did these two things go together?
• 1:33:12
  And basically, what they wanted was a person who is legit a
• 1:33:14
  barista but also does all of the social media for the company all
• 1:33:18
  of the marketing for the company, like, Everything and I
• 1:33:21
  was like these just isn't realistic like well of course it
• 1:33:25
  is they're just but they what's troubling is that they see the
• 1:33:31
  marketing. Hmm you know as equal to serving
• 1:33:35
  a cup of coffee as. Yeah.
• 1:33:36
  And that's the thing they'll pay you like the minimum wage for
• 1:33:41
  that. Sure she's a minimum wage at 40
• 1:33:43
  hours a week but you'll not get paid as you say for those
• 1:33:46
  marketing higher level higher training, I work, but I think C
• 1:33:52
  is on level of doing dishes, right?
• 1:33:56
  Yeah. And it's, which is insulting,
• 1:33:58
  it's insulting. Anybody who takes the work
• 1:34:00
  seriously and it's insulting to you as a potential applicant.
• 1:34:05
  Did I ever send you my freelance boot camp?
• 1:34:08
  Course that no more bad clients course, I did.
• 1:34:12
  No, I don't believe so. We spoke about on the podcast
• 1:34:14
  last time. But I think we, I got I, you
• 1:34:17
  know, I'll send you the free version because you're a cool
• 1:34:19
  guy with Thank you a couple of, I'll send you to you, but you
• 1:34:24
  have to tell me. Honestly, if you do it, you got
• 1:34:28
  it. Tell me.
• 1:34:29
  Honestly, Dave here's what I think.
• 1:34:31
  Okay. Which I think I think that's
• 1:34:32
  very fair. Yeah.
• 1:34:34
  So I'll set it up so I can send it to you because I really would
• 1:34:37
  like to hear your objective opinion on it, but it's the idea
• 1:34:43
  of, if you're a freelancer because this episode should have
• 1:34:47
  a theme to it, I should say if your Struggling freelancer.
• 1:34:52
  I mean good God Spot the BS before you can smell it.
• 1:34:57
  And the other thing is you've got to have your head screwed on
• 1:35:00
  tight. You got to have a game plan.
• 1:35:02
  It's like hunting snipe in the forest.
• 1:35:05
  You got to know what it looks like before you go pursue it.
• 1:35:09
  And you got to have a plan as a lot of folks out in this is the
• 1:35:14
  purpose of it, you know, know who's the red flag, who's not a
• 1:35:18
  red flag have Strategy and place, you know?
• 1:35:23
  Yeah, that doesn't there's a lot of things I've learned through
• 1:35:25
  it. Like, for instance, not
• 1:35:27
  underselling yourself is a big one.
• 1:35:29
  I think a lot of people will try to, like, I got something recent
• 1:35:34
  Ivory. I mentioned this, I think in the
• 1:35:35
  last episode as were so sorry for repeating this guy's, no not
• 1:35:39
  at all. No, I just said to my listeners
• 1:35:41
  who listen, if I don't get annoyed with me repeating things
• 1:35:44
  but yeah, I received an offer from someone who would actually
• 1:35:48
  work within a different company. on a freelance basis, and they
• 1:35:51
  wanted me to Offer like a third less than what I would normally
• 1:35:58
  offer. So I quoted them, they were
• 1:35:59
  like, well, this is what we're willing to pay and it was like a
• 1:36:01
  third less plus but the draw if you like was that they were
• 1:36:06
  offering full-time work. And I was like, well it's just
• 1:36:09
  not worth it, you know. Me and a lot of these jobs that
• 1:36:12
  I see that listed these days like I'm unemployed and I'm
• 1:36:17
  still looking at a lot of these roles like like I'm better off
• 1:36:21
  not going for it at this point and it like, for example, I A
• 1:36:24
  lot of jobs where it's like between 16 to 18, thousand per
• 1:36:27
  annum, right there, it will be like, sometimes you'll even be
• 1:36:32
  like a mid-level marketing role which typically pays between 23
• 1:36:35
  to 25. So it's just, it's just a pretty
• 1:36:38
  low. Yeah.
• 1:36:40
  It's like they did in the yolk in the UK. 23 to 25 for
• 1:36:43
  mid-level marketing. Exec is pretty fair.
• 1:36:45
  It depends how much they're asking you to do.
• 1:36:48
  You know what I mean? But like 16 to 18 to put that
• 1:36:51
  into perspective, that's That's kind of what you'd expect to
• 1:36:56
  earn when you go into like an entry-level office job like as
• 1:37:01
  in admin General. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:37:04
  Not every marketing real. So it's, I look at it and I'm
• 1:37:08
  like, this is a joke especially when you look at all the
• 1:37:10
  different things like I think a lot of the time they're there.
• 1:37:13
  Hey Char, just literally copies and pastes things from other
• 1:37:17
  websites because you have like all the disgusting.
• 1:37:20
  Yeah. You do know they'd I could tell
• 1:37:21
  you, they do but see not realistic.
• 1:37:23
  You can't, you can't. Start in a job.
• 1:37:25
  That's offering two thirds less than, you know, what the market
• 1:37:29
  average is or third less than what the market averages, but
• 1:37:32
  then expect to have, you know, five years experience.
• 1:37:35
  You have to be proficient in Adobe suite or whatever.
• 1:37:39
  It's like come on. One of the biggest problems with
• 1:37:43
  applying for Freelance or marketing work online with
• 1:37:49
  employers. One of the biggest problems is
• 1:37:52
  that they'll have these these openings, you know, that just
• 1:37:58
  like you said, have a big long list as long as my leg of what
• 1:38:02
  they want. And they're not only that but
• 1:38:04
  there they prescribe what tools you have to use, how you have to
• 1:38:09
  use it, what type of work you're doing?
• 1:38:11
  So what you're going to do, how you're going to do it?
• 1:38:14
  What tools you're going to use? It's like, you could take a web
• 1:38:17
  developer, which is what I am. I do other things, but a web
• 1:38:21
  developer and say, well, you got to use this layout or just
• 1:38:24
  theme. You've got to use only WordPress
• 1:38:27
  or whatever, you know, and on, and on, and on which, like look,
• 1:38:30
  I may have my own way of working that can accomplish your
• 1:38:34
  objectives, and I can do a really great job for you, but
• 1:38:36
  you'll never know. Right?
• 1:38:39
  It's like responding to rfps unless you can have an adult big
• 1:38:43
  boy, big woman conversation with them.
• 1:38:46
  You can never break through that BS smokescreen.
• 1:38:50
  So what I always tell people is, you know, apply, it's a numbers
• 1:38:54
  game, it's strictly a numbers, give they don't know you from a
• 1:38:58
  hole in the wall and they're not interested.
• 1:39:00
  It's just pure numbers, your collect hundreds of resumes
• 1:39:03
  every day and they're looking for a mirror match or what they
• 1:39:06
  think they should have. So, if I get an RFP request or
• 1:39:11
  something, what I do is I say, you know what, I'm so honored
• 1:39:15
  and so flattered to talk to you. In fact, I'm so excited and so
• 1:39:19
  honored I can barely get a pulse right now.
• 1:39:22
  It just unbelievable. I don't say it.
• 1:39:24
  Of course, I'm being facetious but what I say is, it's the way
• 1:39:27
  you're saying that. It's like, it's like earlier
• 1:39:29
  when you were telling that story about that job, interviewing
• 1:39:31
  just I just love, you know, what do this?
• 1:39:33
  The sarcasm was brilliant. I mean, an RFP from a practical
• 1:39:38
  perspective. Active is is like putting on it
• 1:39:41
  in Iron Boot and kicking someone right in the boobies.
• 1:39:45
  For those who don't know, what is enough 5p for those listening
• 1:39:48
  request for proposal, nonprofit organizations and POS love rfps
• 1:39:55
  because they think that's what they're supposed to do.
• 1:39:58
  What it really is in essence is a cattle call because it's
• 1:40:02
  basically like a little miniature report and they put it
• 1:40:05
  out and they say this is what we want this.
• 1:40:09
  How we want it done, this is how we want you to do the work, even
• 1:40:12
  though we're not experts in digital marketing.
• 1:40:14
  But we're going to tell you how to do it, what tools to use by,
• 1:40:18
  what deadline to do it, and how much it should cost.
• 1:40:22
  Because this is only what we're willing to pay for.
• 1:40:24
  It doesn't matter if it's our budgets realistic or not.
• 1:40:28
  So responding to rfps is usually a tremendous waste of time.
• 1:40:33
  And a lot of cases, they send them off.
• 1:40:35
  So that legally, it gives the appearance Appearance of what we
• 1:40:39
  did interview other people, we couldn't find anyone who was a
• 1:40:42
  good fit for us. So we had no choice but to go
• 1:40:45
  with this company and the other company just happens to be the
• 1:40:48
  owners brother or whatever, you know.
• 1:40:51
  So they that happens in a lot of cases with agencies and
• 1:40:56
  nonprofits and government organizations and so on.
• 1:40:59
  It's very common in marketing, you see it all the time.
• 1:41:02
  The way you break through that or one way, you can possibly
• 1:41:06
  break through it. If they're receptive is to just
• 1:41:08
  send them Like a very polite letter just says, you know, look
• 1:41:12
  I'd love to work with you but I need to know more about what you
• 1:41:16
  really want in terms of expectations and setting
• 1:41:20
  realistic priorities. This is a form that doesn't
• 1:41:22
  really tell me anything. Would you be receptive to
• 1:41:25
  jumping on a zoom chat and just having a serious adult
• 1:41:30
  conversation about, you know how my experience could really match
• 1:41:36
  with achieving your goals, you know?
• 1:41:38
  Maybe I don't use the exact same tools that you think would be an
• 1:41:41
  appropriate fit, but I could still do a great job for you and
• 1:41:45
  here's all these testimonials and so on.
• 1:41:48
  If you're interested, here's a link that you could schedule
• 1:41:51
  this with most of the time, you'll never hear from them
• 1:41:55
  again because you don't fit into that, very narrow cattle, call
• 1:42:00
  that funnel, you know. So I thought I could come down.
• 1:42:06
  There are just looking for morons these days, which is,
• 1:42:08
  Really sucks. I mean, well, if you think about
• 1:42:10
  it, who is easier to control? I've been nearly scammed a few
• 1:42:13
  times. I'm not sure if I've actually
• 1:42:15
  spoken about this on the podcast, but I find out if I had
• 1:42:17
  a job interview today and I mentioned this story in passing
• 1:42:21
  because I thought I always find it funny.
• 1:42:22
  So when I drew brought up, did I what sorry?
• 1:42:26
  Did you blow it off the job, interview, the interview?
• 1:42:30
  Did you pull it off? I know I'm waiting to hear back
• 1:42:33
  from them so well, so we'll see what happens with that.
• 1:42:35
  But no, I told this story because I I've always just found
• 1:42:39
  this fascinating, it's really funny.
• 1:42:41
  So when I finished my degree back in summer, 2017, I was
• 1:42:46
  looking for work and I was working out of a hotel.
• 1:42:50
  Job was working 60 hours, we sent crazy like that.
• 1:42:53
  So in the very small time that I did have occasionally I was able
• 1:42:57
  to sort of take like the day off and go to a job interview but
• 1:43:01
  obviously it cost a lot of money to commute into London and, you
• 1:43:04
  know, oh yeah, yeah, I just didn't have a lot of money.
• 1:43:06
  I was it was like, oh, do you wanna go to an interview or Eat
• 1:43:09
  this week, it was, it was tough times but you know, I made a
• 1:43:13
  couple of exceptions because I genuinely believe I got, okay,
• 1:43:15
  this might be something and both instances that I got offers for
• 1:43:20
  job, interviews were both scams. Now, here's the thing, they were
• 1:43:25
  actual jobs, but they were essentially pyramid scheme style
• 1:43:31
  situations. Yeah, very, very calm.
• 1:43:33
  And there's a good documentary on Amazon Prime called just
• 1:43:36
  leave class. So basically, Lee.
• 1:43:40
  I don't know if it really is the same in America, but in the UK
• 1:43:43
  we've got a lot of positions. I've seen some of them here in
• 1:43:46
  Manchester actually. Well, they'll advertise for a
• 1:43:49
  marketing and sales role or maybe even just a marketing
• 1:43:53
  role. So be like social media,
• 1:43:55
  marketing executive, and you go, and you show up and basically
• 1:43:58
  they just lay out a sales pitch to you for a Salesman and it'll
• 1:44:02
  be like oh we want you to regularly go to networking
• 1:44:06
  events and talk to other like-minded professionals.
• 1:44:08
  Sell our product or something, some rubbish like that all
• 1:44:12
  door-to-door sales or something but this company they bring me
• 1:44:15
  up to London. I have this intense interview
• 1:44:20
  with this guy who tears into me for like half an hour and hit
• 1:44:24
  like I remember one point he said to me do you read item in
• 1:44:28
  the same guy? It might have been the same 7
• 1:44:30
  foot tall guy Nas different guy this this will do is this will I
• 1:44:33
  was like self-assured like he just loved to terrorize people
• 1:44:36
  you like Have you read any books?
• 1:44:39
  And I was like, I've read a few and he's like, which ones have
• 1:44:43
  you read? And I was like, I don't know.
• 1:44:44
  And I listed a few and he was like, yeah, but have you read
• 1:44:48
  and this book and this book, I've read, thousands of books,
• 1:44:51
  blah, blah, and it was just like the type of guy that's, is that
• 1:44:54
  bully tactics? Basically, the guys trying to do
• 1:44:57
  and he was basically trying to like, expose my weaknesses.
• 1:45:00
  So it's like do you have any experience in the field?
• 1:45:02
  And I said, well no but I have this degree and yeah I didn't
• 1:45:06
  have a lot of confidence back then.
• 1:45:07
  Self. Yeah, I don't need what a little
• 1:45:10
  bit in business. At this point.
• 1:45:11
  I'd had like an internship, but that was it.
• 1:45:13
  I had no experience and this guy was just tearing in and exposing
• 1:45:17
  all of that and it was really unprofessional interview and I
• 1:45:21
  just kind of left feeling a bit like deflate in as a huh, okay.
• 1:45:24
  But that was not the end of the situation that was just the
• 1:45:28
  interview. Now we go on to like I don't
• 1:45:30
  even know what to call it. Like one of his colleagues came.
• 1:45:33
  This big Burly guy. He's built like a rugby player.
• 1:45:36
  I run. It always has That they always
• 1:45:38
  have the enforcer. Yeah, and he was he was legit.
• 1:45:43
  He was a sales guy, but he legit played rugby and I noticed that
• 1:45:48
  he was now look I'm not trying to Fat shame or something like
• 1:45:52
  that but like when there's a guy who's you know, trying to tell
• 1:45:56
  you that he his life is amazing and that you you know, he's made
• 1:46:01
  100,000, he's going to make 100,000 this year and he's like
• 1:46:05
  the top sales guy and his life is amazing.
• 1:46:07
  And basically trying to say like, hey, you could be me but
• 1:46:10
  the guys sweating profusely look stressed.
• 1:46:12
  The whole time is like, like aggressive when you questioned
• 1:46:17
  him about things like very defensive and bear in mind.
• 1:46:21
  I'm just a guy there for an interview.
• 1:46:23
  Like why are you getting defensive when I'm asking you
• 1:46:25
  questions, you know what I mean? But yeah, he takes me through.
• 1:46:29
  London takes me to the other side of London and we get like
• 1:46:34
  it was weird. Like occasionally, we would just
• 1:46:36
  be like we did. In get transport that we've got
• 1:46:39
  public transport there. So we literally was with, we
• 1:46:41
  followed him to the train station, then we got the train
• 1:46:44
  with him, and then like the interview is occurring like when
• 1:46:48
  we're on the train. It was weird.
• 1:46:50
  Like I've never been in a situation like that before, I
• 1:46:52
  like it will be intermittent. So sometimes we would just be
• 1:46:56
  talking normally, then sometimes it be silenced and then
• 1:46:59
  sometimes he'd start asking like interview style questions and it
• 1:47:02
  was it was weird and people were looking at us like this weird.
• 1:47:05
  And then we finally get to this Shopping Center.
• 1:47:09
  And we meet, like the other people who, you know, been there
• 1:47:12
  for a while at trainee six months a year, whatever.
• 1:47:15
  Right. And they're basically
• 1:47:16
  brainwashed, they have clipboards, they're basically
• 1:47:19
  doing like sales in malls. Basically, like, you know,
• 1:47:22
  trying to sell you crappy products, or whatever.
• 1:47:25
  At first glance, I'm paying attention to these people
• 1:47:28
  because they look happy, they look, you know, I was in my
• 1:47:32
  mid-20s then they look like early to mid-20s, you know, so
• 1:47:36
  they don't look like idiots, they don't let that fool.
• 1:47:37
  Fools their world dress. Like I was looking at it now
• 1:47:39
  that like, okay, maybe I should hear this up, but at the same
• 1:47:42
  time, my I'm getting red flags. My my I'm starting to not panic,
• 1:47:47
  but I'm like this. This is there's something off
• 1:47:49
  about this, you know what I mean?
• 1:47:50
  And if it down because I was with a girl as well, who was
• 1:47:55
  being interviewed as well. And he asks us to write like 30
• 1:48:00
  reasons why we think we would be good for the job or something.
• 1:48:03
  And then he goes to talk to these people and I'm just
• 1:48:06
  sitting there looking at this piece of paper.
• 1:48:08
  I've right, like five things and then I just stopped and I can,
• 1:48:11
  what am I doing? Like honestly, what am I doing?
• 1:48:13
  And I know that's, you know, that's the thing.
• 1:48:15
  I start talking to that girl. And I'm like, are you, do you
• 1:48:19
  think this is weird? You know, like, what?
• 1:48:21
  What's your take? And she agreed with me
• 1:48:23
  completely and both just as I think, I'll get something for
• 1:48:27
  lunch. Yeah, before I could finish the
• 1:48:28
  conversation with her, he comes over.
• 1:48:31
  And he's like, how much of you guys written and bear in mind?
• 1:48:34
  He's given us like five minutes. It's not enough time to write,
• 1:48:36
  like 30 different Aunt, intricate good points.
• 1:48:40
  But he I think what happened was he didn't like the fact that I
• 1:48:44
  was not a yes, man. He didn't.
• 1:48:46
  He like, he didn't like the fact that I was inquisitive.
• 1:48:49
  Like, that was a danger for this, so he'd already written me
• 1:48:52
  off. But here's the thing, I was
• 1:48:55
  completely polite and professional the whole time.
• 1:48:57
  So when he came over to me and I, he said, like, you know,
• 1:49:01
  wherever you up to us like, well, you know, I haven't had
• 1:49:03
  much time to finish it. But look, I've been doing some
• 1:49:06
  thinking and I'm thinning that you're maybe this opportunity is
• 1:49:09
  not for me, you know, but thank you for your time, I appreciate
• 1:49:12
  and then he just bursts he just gets really angry at me.
• 1:49:15
  Start shouting and is it's like, yeah.
• 1:49:17
  Oh, you know, my colleague interviewed you, and he could
• 1:49:20
  tell that, you know, you're not right for this.
• 1:49:21
  You know, you've got no self-esteem and you're, you
• 1:49:24
  know, you're not the right fit. You, you would never be a
• 1:49:26
  successful salesman or or and I'm just bewildered.
• 1:49:29
  I might okay? And the other girl is still
• 1:49:32
  sitting there watching this and he's like and I don't want you
• 1:49:35
  to affect her decision and And to turn your negativities the
• 1:49:39
  way you put it on to her and I was at what asking questions is
• 1:49:42
  being - so I just start laughing.
• 1:49:44
  I'm like yeah but it is. Yeah, I know imagine, imagine
• 1:49:48
  working in that on a daily basis, it sounds to me like you
• 1:49:52
  walked into an MLM. I mean basically but there's a
• 1:49:57
  lot of them seem to exist and like I'm over here I interviewed
• 1:50:01
  for one here in Manchester and I mean, like, here's a couple of
• 1:50:06
  things, like, I walked in there to have an interview of a
• 1:50:09
  particular guy, and I get there. And I've been, first of all,
• 1:50:13
  it's like 10 minutes late. I'll be kept, right?
• 1:50:16
  Secondly, I go into this meeting room.
• 1:50:18
  Yeah, I don't do that anymore. Yeah, it's just, it's just rude.
• 1:50:22
  But like, secondly, I get brought into this meeting room
• 1:50:25
  with a different guy who says, okay, this guy is not here or
• 1:50:28
  he's busy with someone else, which I was like, what?
• 1:50:32
  And then I have to basically sit with another guy.
• 1:50:34
  Who's being interviewed question that same time.
• 1:50:36
  Sounds like what? Like, what is this?
• 1:50:38
  I didn't agree to like a group interview.
• 1:50:42
  I thought this was a one-on-one, so I'm already annoyed.
• 1:50:45
  Like, I'm acting like my body language shows that I'm annoyed.
• 1:50:48
  Like, I'm not angry, but I'm kind of like, I'm just going to
• 1:50:54
  finish it and then walk out. I've already decided, but I'm
• 1:50:56
  going to like, hear him out because maybe he'll say
• 1:50:58
  something that will just change my whole complexion.
• 1:51:01
  I don't know. I like, I'm pretty sure he's not
• 1:51:02
  going to, but I like to just give things.
• 1:51:04
  Things the benefit of the doubt, right?
• 1:51:06
  So he asks me a bunch of stupid questions and I quickly realized
• 1:51:11
  this has nothing to do with marketing.
• 1:51:13
  You know, it's that networking thing I told you about before.
• 1:51:15
  It's just I and then he asks the other guy.
• 1:51:20
  Yeah and he asked the same questions and then he kind of he
• 1:51:25
  said something. Which was interesting he said in
• 1:51:29
  the middle of the interview like oh yeah I can tell that this is
• 1:51:32
  you know you know you're not going to go for this, you're not
• 1:51:33
  right fit or something be said that in the interview which I
• 1:51:37
  found pretty puzzling because it's a sort of situation where
• 1:51:42
  you know, it's as much me trying to sell myself as it is them
• 1:51:45
  trying to sell themselves to me. I think a lot of companies,
• 1:51:48
  forget that, particularly these self-assured companies that
• 1:51:50
  think they're the greatest and, you know, they can do no wrong
• 1:51:53
  and so on and so forth. Like they seem to think that
• 1:51:57
  that like they're doing you a favor and it's like, well, no,
• 1:52:00
  all you've done is just confirm that I've wasted my time.
• 1:52:04
  It's just I just worked out like, yeah, they're very common.
• 1:52:09
  I mean, you gotta have your head screwed on tight.
• 1:52:11
  I mean, is, you know, you said and, you know, the stories, I
• 1:52:15
  indicated, I mean, the deeper into the forest, you go, the
• 1:52:18
  more nuts you find, and that's exactly what it is.
• 1:52:20
  It's, you know, there's a lot of mlms that are posing as
• 1:52:24
  marketing agency, right? It's very calm, and if you're a
• 1:52:28
  freelancer, looking for a way to earn a living, you're going to
• 1:52:32
  encounter them, you know, they're, they're like traps in
• 1:52:35
  the forest. You got to know how to sidestep
• 1:52:38
  them. Yeah, I totally agree with you.
• 1:52:43
  Yeah. I got one more sort of final
• 1:52:44
  question before we sort of rash, sure for today.
• 1:52:47
  So what do you think? I could talk to you all day
• 1:52:49
  long? The only reason to tied up to
• 1:52:51
  just to get something to eat and use the bathroom.
• 1:52:54
  Christian go right ahead. Listen, I I totally agree.
• 1:52:58
  I have not even asked you do. Well, I've got loads of
• 1:53:01
  questions, still for you. I've not asked you pretty much
• 1:53:03
  anything here. It's makes me laugh, but that's
• 1:53:06
  great. We've had a fantastic chat.
• 1:53:08
  Yeah, today is basically, today is basically a fun fun chat day
• 1:53:14
  and, you know, just touching base with you basically.
• 1:53:17
  Yeah. And here I find it interesting.
• 1:53:19
  Actually, a lot of the ground we've covered and it's still
• 1:53:22
  being business and marketing related, the whole time which I
• 1:53:25
  find fascinating. To be quite honest.
• 1:53:29
  I mean it's a bulk of my life, right?
• 1:53:31
  Yeah. No of course I don't know if
• 1:53:32
  that's a good thing, it's probably actually quite sad but
• 1:53:36
  it's the bulk of my life real, I don't think so.
• 1:53:39
  You know, I don't know if it's something that you enjoyed it,
• 1:53:42
  you're motivated by. I don't think anyone can tell
• 1:53:44
  you. There's some, there's some good
• 1:53:47
  things that came out of it. I mean, I learned a lot from
• 1:53:49
  some places. There was a marketing agency
• 1:53:51
  that I worked for with the director marketing was actually
• 1:53:55
  extremely Lee well-qualified. Okay, Legendary experience.
• 1:54:01
  Unbelievable experience, but he also had a filthy filthy mouth
• 1:54:07
  and would also shout expletives. He would also say, racist things
• 1:54:13
  on a regular basis. Wow.
• 1:54:15
  Yeah, really nice. Now I did, I learn a lot from
• 1:54:19
  working there. Yes, I did.
• 1:54:22
  Right, did I make some good money working there?
• 1:54:26
  Yes, I It. But throwing things at the wall.
• 1:54:32
  Cursing people out shouting expletives.
• 1:54:35
  Staying to meaning a little. You don't belittling racist
• 1:54:38
  comments and everything. I would have stayed longer a lot
• 1:54:42
  longer actually, if that hadn't happened.
• 1:54:45
  Yeah, no dude. I'm totally psyched, dude.
• 1:54:49
  David, I'm totally. I'm a dude.
• 1:54:51
  No, I know, I know, I just feels feels not appropriate right now.
• 1:54:57
  But anyway, so I'm a senior. Yeah, she's not even now.
• 1:55:01
  I feel like when I'm talking like to people about business, I
• 1:55:04
  feel like when I use these like more familiar terms it's like
• 1:55:08
  what you doing. It's just yeah.
• 1:55:09
  But anyway, okay with it. Go right ahead.
• 1:55:12
  I've been there I worked with a guy who I mean okay it was an
• 1:55:19
  international office and English wasn't his first language but he
• 1:55:22
  spoke English perfectly you know like what that wasn't the issue.
• 1:55:26
  Um, I don't know if he was trying to impress me or what the
• 1:55:31
  situation was, but he swore, like every sentence, he swore
• 1:55:37
  and I felt uncomfortable. I mean, it's not like, I don't
• 1:55:40
  drop the F-bomb once in awhile course I do.
• 1:55:42
  But I just felt like, that's not something you should do in a
• 1:55:46
  business environment. No, not in that environment.
• 1:55:50
  It's not their CEOs, and I've worked in Like I said that guy,
• 1:55:58
  he didn't talk that way around other CEOs and other Executives
• 1:56:02
  who he would meet with. So interesting.
• 1:56:04
  So he only did it around the staff, then that's interesting
• 1:56:07
  right when they left, he would say, well, you know, those
• 1:56:10
  nothing. So, and so's and all like that.
• 1:56:13
  And I remember one time he said something and he said, well, you
• 1:56:19
  know how those Jews are. And I said, no, tell me because
• 1:56:22
  I really want to know because my grandmother had the numbers on
• 1:56:25
  her. Tell me.
• 1:56:30
  What did he do? Look at he, he kind of mumbled
• 1:56:33
  something and I laughed that seems apologize.
• 1:56:40
  I'll reach toward with a dude. Dude, I would have responded at
• 1:56:45
  that time in my life. I mean, it really, I probably
• 1:56:49
  shouldn't even have been at that job.
• 1:56:50
  I did learn a lot from it in hindsight, but it was a bile
• 1:56:53
  ducts, wildly, inappropriate wildly inappropriate.
• 1:56:56
  I was getting ready to punch its ticket.
• 1:56:58
  Yeah, yeah, an OWI agreed. Like I'm surprised you kept your
• 1:57:02
  nerve in that and I mean because well, I was pretty close.
• 1:57:07
  Don't know what my hand was reaching for it the time, but he
• 1:57:11
  didn't apologize that that blows my mind even more like, you've
• 1:57:14
  just been exposed. I've said something that, I
• 1:57:17
  mean, maybe he, maybe he didn't even like, think about that.
• 1:57:20
  Maybe he didn't put two and two together.
• 1:57:22
  I don't think we realize people, I don't think they do.
• 1:57:25
  There's no nobody when you call someone out, and something is
• 1:57:27
  very rare, that the person doesn't least apologize.
• 1:57:30
  Even if they do it in that, like, kind of half, not serious.
• 1:57:33
  Kind of women. Oh yeah.
• 1:57:34
  So we like, they, at least, say something, like, Like just
• 1:57:38
  Mumble, something a walkout stuns me, like, he must Dodge.
• 1:57:41
  It just be a racist and not care, which is crazy.
• 1:57:45
  Now, I don't remember exactly. I remember, from time to time,
• 1:57:50
  he would like, see take the company credit card and go out
• 1:57:53
  for lunch. And you could come back in three
• 1:57:55
  hours, or whatever he would do that from time to time.
• 1:57:59
  And he would say like, well, we're having a meeting in Miami
• 1:58:01
  or something. If you want to go, you can go
• 1:58:05
  and help with the setup and everything.
• 1:58:07
  So you can learn That's all you got, that's all you have to do,
• 1:58:10
  you know. But we want you to be trained
• 1:58:13
  and you know and see how the business is operated.
• 1:58:17
  But at that particular time at that particular comment.
• 1:58:20
  It struck a nerve with me and moving back, we're going to lie
• 1:58:27
  but blood mumbling, something and kind of, you know, going
• 1:58:31
  back into his office or whatever.
• 1:58:34
  Okay. How was he was, he afraid was he
• 1:58:38
  Like shocked star should have been there, but what was his
• 1:58:41
  demeanor was? I think.
• 1:58:44
  Yeah, he seemed a little bit taken aback, because my demeanor
• 1:58:46
  was always very quiet. Yeah, you know, I'm pretty.
• 1:58:51
  I'm pretty introverted guy. I don't know how I come across
• 1:58:53
  to other people but I think I'm a pretty introverted guy.
• 1:58:56
  I'd like to just do my work and what gets me excited is doing
• 1:59:00
  something, creative a legitimately, you know, being
• 1:59:04
  part of a business turning things around and increasing
• 1:59:07
  profits. Being creative, good meal with
• 1:59:10
  my wife being a nature. Those are the things that really
• 1:59:13
  turn me on as I say. So at that time, his statement
• 1:59:20
  kind of got under my skin and I was usually a pretty quiet
• 1:59:24
  subdued person. So if I'm saying no tell me I
• 1:59:29
  want to know. I think that probably I think he
• 1:59:33
  could tell, you know, he was either going to get a face of
• 1:59:36
  hot coffee or something pretty quickly.
• 1:59:39
  So I think he knew that something was going to happen so
• 1:59:42
  he he was, he was like I just got my office now.
• 1:59:44
  Before this guy kills me, I think, I think he knew and the
• 1:59:49
  thing is his office was in office.
• 1:59:52
  So we worked about 10 feet away from him, he had an office, he
• 1:59:54
  can go in there and slam the door, and you'd hear him on the
• 1:59:57
  phone and everything like that. Did you ever get an apology
• 2:00:00
  after that? It's did he did you know
• 2:00:03
  nothing. So you just kind of moved on
• 2:00:06
  something, right? I think he might he might have
• 2:00:09
  like a couple of days later. He might have given me the
• 2:00:11
  company credit card, as a good take three dollars as if that
• 2:00:16
  makes up for things like here. Right money.
• 2:00:18
  Please forget that. I'm a massive radio.
• 2:00:21
  Yeah. But I mean you know it's I
• 2:00:24
  forgot with the whole point was but it was a story to illustrate
• 2:00:28
  what you were asking me about but I'm having a senior moment.
• 2:00:32
  But yeah, I've been through the wringer with these agencies and
• 2:00:36
  that's why every once in a while when you can partner with a
• 2:00:39
  business who really wants to turn things around and they
• 2:00:42
  really need it and they got it, they're willing to be a part of
• 2:00:46
  something bigger than themselves and you can really knock out of
• 2:00:49
  the park for them. That's very gratifying.
• 2:00:52
  Yeah, I've not really had that, I've not really had that
• 2:00:55
  experience. If I'm on it, I've had it with
• 2:00:57
  my freelance clients but with the companies of work for as
• 2:01:02
  you've been way too much politics, too much kind of
• 2:01:07
  Blockers in place that shouldn't be there.
• 2:01:12
  Like a lot of time when I look at these things.
• 2:01:14
  Like I remember so many things, I work with where we would talk
• 2:01:16
  about the things that we should be doing or like, you know, the
• 2:01:21
  fact that we had budgets to do certain things but we weren't
• 2:01:24
  doing them or like, you know what other companies were doing
• 2:01:26
  that, we should be doing that they were weird, the
• 2:01:28
  conversation would always go back to that and then like I
• 2:01:31
  remember other teams, you know, like maybe I'm on a marketing
• 2:01:35
  team and I'm talking to the SEO team.
• 2:01:37
  Like the SEO team would be like, you know, you guys should be
• 2:01:40
  doing this. This is what we should be doing
• 2:01:41
  and I was like, you don't need to tell me I know that and it's
• 2:01:44
  not like I haven't suggested that and I'm sure you have but
• 2:01:47
  we're still doing this thing which we know is not as
• 2:01:50
  effective and it's like the could be up because that way of
• 2:01:52
  doing things makes them the bottom line or makes them the
• 2:01:56
  amount that they want. So there's no they don't see the
• 2:01:59
  perceived value in making that transition where they're
• 2:02:04
  delivering higher value to decline.
• 2:02:07
  They're not expensive, it's not just that that's one of the
• 2:02:09
  reasons why people work for them.
• 2:02:11
  It's not just a value thing though.
• 2:02:12
  It's like by a lot of time. Like in that instance, I gave as
• 2:02:16
  an example, doing that particular thing would have
• 2:02:20
  meant that we made more money in the long run.
• 2:02:23
  Oh yeah. A definite.
• 2:02:25
  And we would have saved money as well.
• 2:02:27
  Everything is done on the basis of short-term just, you know,
• 2:02:31
  yeah, work term gain. That's what do you know?
• 2:02:37
  You caught my eyes is most definitely.
• 2:02:39
  I understand like do if your if your If you're a startup
• 2:02:45
  business, you're trying to trying to make something I
• 2:02:47
  understand, but if you're a major company, you've already
• 2:02:50
  made it doing stuff like that is going to lose you money in the
• 2:02:53
  long term and surely you want to get to?
• 2:02:55
  Well it should. Yeah.
• 2:02:57
  You want to condition is show? I mean that's the law of
• 2:03:01
  attrition. You know the companies that
• 2:03:02
  can't adapt and change or deliver higher value in a
• 2:03:06
  certain way will go on door. I think, I think I don't
• 2:03:09
  remember. Last time I looked at this is
• 2:03:10
  about the exact specific number, but I think the average
• 2:03:14
  Generator death rate, I should say, for the average agencies
• 2:03:16
  around five years. Most marketing and ad agencies
• 2:03:21
  are going to be gone in five years.
• 2:03:22
  I remember I actually had a local area marketing agency
• 2:03:27
  contact and multimillion-dollar Agency, contact, me.
• 2:03:31
  And I don't want to get into too much background because I,
• 2:03:33
  obviously, I don't want to say who it is.
• 2:03:35
  I mean, they're, they're nice people but they contacted me.
• 2:03:39
  The owner contacted me and said, you know, we're marketing agency
• 2:03:43
  multimillion-dollar agency blah, blah blah.
• 2:03:47
  We need help getting behind this web saying those were her words,
• 2:03:52
  it's web saying and I said well what he what do you talk about?
• 2:03:56
  And she said, well clients want websites and they want to be
• 2:03:59
  number one in Google and everything.
• 2:04:00
  And we're still doing everything but that and we just, you know,
• 2:04:05
  we really need help scaling, our agency.
• 2:04:07
  So we can deliver this and I'm thinking What are you like 30
• 2:04:12
  yours and, you know, trapped in time or something?
• 2:04:15
  So I have to go here here as my recommendations your might, you
• 2:04:20
  know, I listened and I when did I mention?
• 2:04:24
  They had one, they had one but they didn't know how to build
• 2:04:27
  them. Right?
• 2:04:28
  Older business owners. They Outsource everything to
• 2:04:31
  Fiverr or Craig's Lots. Yes.
• 2:04:35
  And it was very economical for them.
• 2:04:38
  But yeah. Patrick how can, how can you,
• 2:04:40
  how can you trust? Just like the basics of your
• 2:04:44
  business and your marketing to people on Fiverr.
• 2:04:47
  I have you seen some of the stuff that's on fire tried.
• 2:04:51
  I'm trying to get a log off from Fiverr before and I ended up
• 2:04:55
  doing it like three or four times you be better off doing it
• 2:04:57
  in Ms. Paid paying someone to do it for you.
• 2:05:02
  Yeah. And I well, that's one of the
• 2:05:04
  reason why I do everything myself.
• 2:05:05
  Yeah. But or most of it anyway, but
• 2:05:10
  Yeah, it's just another example of, you know, putting the cart
• 2:05:15
  before the horse or priorities, just weren't in sync.
• 2:05:18
  They didn't adapt to change with the times.
• 2:05:21
  I don't know if they're still around them, but they they're
• 2:05:23
  not adapting, you know, if you put them in a more competitive
• 2:05:27
  market, they'll be long gone, very quickly, actually Now, you
• 2:05:32
  go to adapt or die in this much specially.
• 2:05:34
  Now I if you're a company that's not, I would, you know, I'd even
• 2:05:38
  argue right now the new version of that what you just laid out
• 2:05:42
  there would be, you know, not not having SEO and content
• 2:05:47
  managers manage content marketing.
• 2:05:50
  As part of your strategy, they give you don't have those two
• 2:05:52
  things. I mean, pretty much within
• 2:05:55
  reason it depends on your industry.
• 2:05:57
  Like I know that bit it doesn't necessarily apply to B2B and
• 2:06:00
  b2c. See and you know, if your
• 2:06:04
  company is mainly like a sales focused industry and you get all
• 2:06:06
  your sales from within the industry or whatever, then
• 2:06:09
  that's different. But if it's a content-based
• 2:06:12
  business of some description, you're delivering a service to
• 2:06:15
  the public or something like that.
• 2:06:17
  If you don't have SEO and content Management in place,
• 2:06:20
  then like you're I mean, you're just destined to fail or make
• 2:06:23
  losses if you're not going to get any traction, right?
• 2:06:27
  Yeah, but you know what? I would like to try to help with
• 2:06:32
  that freelancing issue so I mean maybe I can send you my
• 2:06:36
  freelance course you know through email.
• 2:06:40
  And then what we could do is if you want if you think there's
• 2:06:44
  enough substance to it, you let me know.
• 2:06:47
  We could maybe do a breakdown of it or maybe we could talk about
• 2:06:53
  freelancing issues specifically, when we if we were to talk
• 2:06:59
  again, like do a Part 3, we could just talk about
• 2:07:01
  freelancing only and rather than just you know let our hair down
• 2:07:07
  and having fun. We could do that.
• 2:07:09
  I really get down to Medieval and what do you think of that?
• 2:07:11
  I think there's going to be more than just one more to be honest
• 2:07:16
  judging by the fact that I have all these questions to ask you
• 2:07:19
  right here and you've just laid out the potential of doing a
• 2:07:22
  freelance only episode that there's someone to know.
• 2:07:25
  We can all these questions, but I'm starving.
• 2:07:27
  We can do many more of these. Not a problem at all.
• 2:07:32
  Yeah. Well okay maybe I'll just give
• 2:07:35
  you the one last question in before we sure we do pretty
• 2:07:38
  good. Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:07:40
  Thank you. Thank you for agreeing to do
• 2:07:42
  this. And so what would you say are
• 2:07:44
  the most kind of effective marketing Tools in 2021?
• 2:07:48
  What a company's need right now? More than anything else?
• 2:07:51
  You know, the answer to that. You know what?
• 2:07:53
  I'm going to say. I'm sure you do.
• 2:07:56
  I mean a mobile responsive website that does Doesn't take
• 2:08:01
  you no more than a split second to load.
• 2:08:04
  You want to have your local SEO? Ideally because most businesses
• 2:08:08
  just like politics grow locally, you want to every website in the
• 2:08:12
  world should have e-commerce. I mean, whatever it is that you
• 2:08:16
  do, you you need money to pay bills.
• 2:08:19
  So even you know, the Christian Reeve website, if you don't
• 2:08:24
  have, if you want to have e-commerce, for whatever it is
• 2:08:26
  that you're providing. But even people might say Chris,
• 2:08:30
  I love your podcast. I want to, you know, donate some
• 2:08:34
  money or what have you you want to, you know what I mean?
• 2:08:37
  You every business, every website should have e-commerce.
• 2:08:40
  I have downloads on my own website, I payment plans.
• 2:08:44
  I've all kinds of mess like that.
• 2:08:46
  So you want to have content marketing as you alluded to
• 2:08:49
  earlier, that's that specifically speaks to the pain
• 2:08:53
  points of your ideal target audience.
• 2:08:57
  You want to automate the heck out of your email.
• 2:09:00
  So you're not spending all your time responding as spam or or
• 2:09:03
  for that matter. If someone asks you a question
• 2:09:06
  related to your business, you have a template that you can
• 2:09:09
  send them right away. You know you want to have you
• 2:09:13
  know a branding that looks professional.
• 2:09:15
  So you can apply that to your podcast and your you know your
• 2:09:18
  videos you want to have some notion as to paid advertising if
• 2:09:22
  you're really ready to scale. Absolutely.
• 2:09:26
  Because your PPC has to tie into your local SEO.
• 2:09:30
  Add your content. If I do any kind of PPC, it's
• 2:09:34
  going to be based on my content. So those are just a few things
• 2:09:38
  to get started with And they all come from having an organized
• 2:09:43
  deliberate plan because none of that will help you if you just
• 2:09:47
  throwing tools at someone with no plan.
• 2:09:50
  Absolutely I couldn't agree more.
• 2:09:53
  Well once again David it's been an absolute pleasure.
• 2:09:56
  I want to say a massive thank you for agreeing to be on the
• 2:09:58
  show we're definitely going to do many more of these so those
• 2:10:01
  who are interested in marketing and business expect to see more
• 2:10:06
  of these and yeah we'll definitely work out something in
• 2:10:09
  the very near future. Each animal will do a follow-up
• 2:10:11
  to this and probably future Parts as well.
• 2:10:14
  To be honest, if you hold me to it, if you hold me to it and you
• 2:10:20
  know hold me to whatever it is. It you want to ask?
• 2:10:23
  Don't let me digress. I can answer any question you
• 2:10:27
  come up with and I'm happy to help out and I would definitely
• 2:10:31
  love to be able to help with freelancing, not just for you,
• 2:10:36
  but for anyone listening or watching, oh my God.
• 2:10:40
  A Lansing is something I know like the back of my hand I've
• 2:10:43
  been through hell and back with it as you would imagine.
• 2:10:46
  And so it's something. It's also something I really do
• 2:10:49
  legitimately care about because I know a lot of people are
• 2:10:52
  struggling out there. So I did start working on a
• 2:10:56
  freelancer course, but okay, I think it's I think I think it's
• 2:11:03
  pretty good but I don't think it's 100% perfect yet so I'd
• 2:11:07
  love to get your feedback on it and Gus that topic in the
• 2:11:12
  future, you know. Yeah, I can see at least two
• 2:11:16
  episodes from this. I think one for the remainder of
• 2:11:18
  my questions and potentially any new ones that I think of during
• 2:11:21
  that time and then I will do my research and we'll do a
• 2:11:25
  freelancing episode in the near future and we'll push that and
• 2:11:28
  we'll also hopefully just answer a lot of questions that
• 2:11:32
  Freelancers want to know and really kind of gained an insight
• 2:11:36
  into into what you know and try and provide some value for our
• 2:11:39
  listeners. I think that's definitely Lee
• 2:11:40
  something we're doing the near future and I got to figure out
• 2:11:44
  how to get you on my new podcast to would love to would
• 2:11:47
  absolutely love to. I would Grill.
• 2:11:50
  You like you know interrogate you and bring it up like you're
• 2:11:57
  on dr. Phil or something.
• 2:11:59
  I'm going to ask you all kinds of probing questions.
• 2:12:02
  Excellent. Okay.
• 2:12:04
  Well, like I said, massive, thank you, David, and for
• 2:12:07
  everyone for everyone listening. I hope you've enjoyed this.
• 2:12:10
  So the question we podcast, if you have, please make sure to
• 2:12:15
  like share and subscribe. If you're on YouTube, please
• 2:12:18
  make sure to give us a follow on, you know, Spotify up a
• 2:12:22
  podcast, Google podcast, wherever you listen to the
• 2:12:24
  podcast. Give us a rating.
• 2:12:25
  Give us something and I want to know.
• 2:12:28
  Yeah, I want to know. I want to know to did people
• 2:12:31
  like the episode would. They think about what I said?
• 2:12:33
  They think I'm Bonkers. Or did they like some of my
• 2:12:36
  input? If you have a question about
• 2:12:39
  digital marketing, just I interject you can actually
• 2:12:43
  submit a voicemail question. Go to DM, s dot blue, / podcast,
• 2:12:48
  guests, and there's a little button at the top there where
• 2:12:51
  you can click on it and leave me a voice message.
• 2:12:53
  If it's spam or you told me to go take a running leap, I'm just
• 2:12:56
  going to delete it. So ask me a good probing digital
• 2:13:00
  marketing question and I'll use it in my own podcast.
• 2:13:03
  Sorry to interject their Christian 90s.
• 2:13:06
  Yeah luck. I'll just add to that as well.
• 2:13:08
  If there's any particular Or topics.
• 2:13:11
  You want to see covered on the show in the future?
• 2:13:14
  Please, let me know. Please get in touch.
• 2:13:16
  My DMs are open. The Discord is available now.
• 2:13:18
  If you go to www.hsn.com / links or if you're on YouTube, can
• 2:13:23
  just find the link permalink within the description to the
• 2:13:26
  Discord, it's open their, you can throw us different
• 2:13:30
  suggestions that you have either for the podcast or just in
• 2:13:32
  general for myself. And yeah, just let us know what
• 2:13:36
  you want to see from the podcast and let us know your thoughts on
• 2:13:39
  how it's going so far. Thank.
• 2:13:40
  You very much for listening and until next time.
• 2:13:43
  Peace out one of us you in the next one.