Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #105: Interview with Stephen Theberge, Science-Fiction Author and Accessibility Tester

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #105: Interview with Stephen Theberge, Science-Fiction Author and Accessibility Tester · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:12
  Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jordan LBAP and MBA invites you to listen to her biweekly
• 0:21
  podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
• 0:24
  Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
• 0:27
  insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
• 0:31
  Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
• 0:35
  especially kids with disabilities.
• 0:38
  Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
• 0:42
  dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
• 0:45
  law graduate, and podcast commentator.
• 0:49
  She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
• 0:53
  skills, and expertise in access, technology and information.
• 0:58
  As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
• 1:02
  she just wants to make things better than possible.
• 1:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Remarkable World Commentary.
• 1:14
  I'm Donna J. Jordan. I am a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the
• 1:21
  world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
• 1:27
  I am a law graduate. I am an accessibility consultant,
• 1:33
  an author, a blogger, and a lifelong barrier buster who also
• 1:39
  happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments,
• 1:45
  as in November of 2010, I won the landmark charter case that forced
• 1:52
  the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian not just to
• 1:59
  sight at once. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more
• 2:07
  than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most
• 2:15
  recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Majesty's
• 2:22
  Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
• 2:30
  When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
• 2:37
  you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
• 2:41
  producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
• 2:46
  gadgets talk back in plain language.
• 2:51
  I guess I am a very busy person in many ways and Everything I do circles one
• 3:01
  goal, that being to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice.
• 3:09
  I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
• 3:14
  where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
• 3:21
  Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
• 3:25
  let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as
• 3:33
  remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
• 3:39
  Now, I am pleased to introduce to you Steve, and I hope I have your last name spelled
• 3:47
  pronounced correctly. Steve Birch.
• 3:50
  Welcome to the remarkable world of commentary.
• 3:53
  I am most privileged and happy to have you.
• 3:57
  You have a change back.
• 3:59
  You are a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as a world that we are
• 4:04
  trying to change. So welcome to our podcast.
• 4:10
  Stephen Theberge: Thanks for having me. I love their stubborn optimism.
• 4:15
  I can relate to that.
• 4:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I try my best.
• 4:20
  Stephen Theberge: All we can do.
• 4:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So Steve, Stephen, let's welcome you.
• 4:26
  And let's start at the very beginning.
• 4:30
  You were born in Lewiston, Maine in 1963 and your family moved to
• 4:40
  Attleboro. I hope I have this correctly.
• 4:43
  Yeah, Massachusetts. When you were still an infant,
• 4:47
  more than 60 years later, Attleboro is still home.
• 4:53
  What has kept you rooted in that one place for a lifetime.
• 5:01
  Stephen Theberge: Well, I think because it's of course I have family here and it's not a big city.
• 5:07
  It's a suburb. And I, I went to school in Providence,
• 5:10
  Rhode Island when I went to college. So it was very close.
• 5:13
  And I can take the train to Boston without having to live in Boston.
• 5:16
  And I just grew up here.
• 5:19
  And there's a lot of things that I like about a suburb,
• 5:22
  and it's just feels like home to me.
• 5:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I visited Boston many years ago and I really,
• 5:29
  really liked it. So I think it's great when when one could stay in one place
• 5:33
  for so long. Hey.
• 5:35
  Stephen Theberge: I got lucky. Yeah. I mean, yeah, because moving is never fun,
• 5:39
  you know? No.
• 5:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No it isn't. Now, you began at the Perkins School for the Blind in Watertown in
• 5:50
  1968 as a Residential student at roughly five years old.
• 5:58
  And then you stayed until you graduated in 1982.
• 6:04
  That is 14 years of your childhood.
• 6:09
  Take our listeners inside that experience.
• 6:13
  And what did Perkins give you that you still carry with you today?
• 6:20
  Stephen Theberge: Well, I remember the first night, of course,
• 6:23
  I I'm sure my parents explained it, but I thought they needed me there.
• 6:28
  And but I made friends pretty quickly.
• 6:30
  I still spoke French and I knew enough English to get by.
• 6:35
  I guess Perkins gave me a lot of critical thinking.
• 6:38
  That stubborn optimism.
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  I don't know if they like the stubborn as much,
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  but they taught me to persist and to, you know,
• 6:46
  think for myself and and to not give up on things.
• 6:50
  And also we learned a lot about different cultures.
• 6:54
  We had teacher trainees from various cultures and they didn't tolerate any any like racial
• 7:01
  slurs or anything. So we learned early, even beyond disability,
• 7:05
  that we had international days.
• 7:07
  So we'd learn about other cultures. And it just was a natural part of growing up.
• 7:12
  And it was, you know, once I got over the first hump of being away
• 7:17
  from home, it just felt like my home.
• 7:19
  You know, it was I made a lot of friends.
• 7:21
  I have some friends I still have from that.
• 7:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That sounds really interesting though.
• 7:27
  I mean, and it sounds like a really nice
• 7:28
  experience for you, right?
• 7:31
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. It was, I mean, I, I wouldn't trade it in because at the time
• 7:36
  it was really for me. I mean, I, I'm not going to get into that debate,
• 7:40
  but it was the best education because they weren't ready in the public schools where I
• 7:45
  was to take to do blind stuff at the time.
• 7:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, that's very true. Like in the 60s and 70s,
• 7:55
  many schools were not ready.
• 7:56
  Right?
• 7:57
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, you know, these schools gave us good foundations.
• 8:01
  And I like to I like to hear stories like that.
• 8:04
  You know, I want to stay with those Perkins years for a moment,
• 8:12
  because I think many of our listeners have no idea what residential school life is like or
• 8:20
  actually like. You were a little boy away from your parents and your siblings for much
• 8:28
  of the year. How did your family stay close to you across that distance?
• 8:36
  And what were those homecomings like?
• 8:41
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah, that was an advantage to living closer.
• 8:43
  I could go home every weekend.
• 8:45
  There were students that couldn't go home because they were too far away, so they had
• 8:48
  to. So the homecomings were nice when I was a little boy.
• 8:51
  Of course, my mother would make me a chocolate cake on Saturdays.
• 8:54
  But yeah, as I got older and I've talked to my siblings about this we kind of like the
• 9:03
  summers, you know, they had their own friends. So I was kind of alienated.
• 9:07
  I mean, they did their best at the but, you know,
• 9:09
  they didn't, but I wasn't included in as many things.
• 9:12
  And I think part of that too.
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  And at the time, there wasn't as much like inclusion or talk about,
• 9:19
  you know, awareness. So you know, I don't blame anyone for that,
• 9:24
  but it can be, it could be lonely going home sometimes because yeah,
• 9:28
  you know, I'm like gone nine months out of the year and they have their friends and I
• 9:32
  had a few friends in the neighborhood, you know,
• 9:35
  in the summer, but it was hard to really make friends in that neighborhood.
• 9:38
  You know, my friends were really at school because I saw them most of the year.
• 9:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess, you know, it was sort of like a not,
• 9:46
  not, not exactly a double life, but like two different
• 9:50
  lives in many ways. Right?
• 9:51
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah.
• 9:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Oh, gosh. In 1987, he graduated from Rhode Island.
• 10:00
  Island College with not just one, but two bachelor's degrees,
• 10:07
  one in computer science and one in English literature.
• 10:12
  Wow. With a focus on creative, technical, and analytical analytical writing.
• 10:20
  Those are two very different ways of using the mind.
• 10:25
  Why did you refuse to choose between them and how both.
• 10:33
  How have both halves served you since.
• 10:39
  Stephen Theberge: Well, I always love retelling this story because it's a great stubborn optimism story.
• 10:44
  I was in the beginning when I was in college,
• 10:47
  I wasn't really. I had some vision, so I was kind of in denial about my.
• 10:53
  So for the first year in computers, I was doing pretty badly,
• 10:56
  I. I was one class away from.
• 11:00
  I had to pass a statistics course and if I didn't,
• 11:04
  I was out and I, I had to, I was on my second go round and my advisor,
• 11:09
  I don't know if he did it deliberately or just didn't think.
• 11:13
  He said, you know, I don't. I think you should find another major.
• 11:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh no.
• 11:18
  Stephen Theberge: And I was like, you know, like English or something.
• 11:21
  So I went, I went through the college stuff and I was like,
• 11:25
  hey, I can, I can get a, an English degree and not take all these
• 11:30
  electives. So I'm going to double major.
• 11:32
  And so now I thank him for that pushing me.
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  I really think at the time he was like trying to help me and say,
• 11:39
  go think about doing something else.
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  But I said, I'm going to finish this computer science degree and the writing stuff really
• 11:48
  to me made a connection between, you know, being a tech person and talking
• 11:54
  tech and, and being able to communicate, you know,
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  without having that technical talk that people aren't going to understand.
• 12:02
  And, and just reading, like writing it, it, it helped me with being,
• 12:08
  wanting to be a writer, you know, taking English classes and learning
• 12:12
  different kinds of styles of writing.
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  So I, it, some people, it, it really is actually not as strange a
• 12:20
  mix as it would seem. You know, you would think on the surface they actually
• 12:23
  complement each other, I think.
• 12:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're not sorry that you.
• 12:28
  Stephen Theberge: Oh no, I probably wouldn't change anything.
• 12:31
  Yeah. And and that but what really drove me was the anger of saying,
• 12:35
  you know, how you want me to change majors.
• 12:38
  And I it was not really a conscious thing at the time.
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  I said, well, okay, I'll just do, I'll just do two majors because it was like,
• 12:47
  you know, I can take all these electives.
• 12:49
  That would have been great. But I said, hey, so I don't know how it just happened to
• 12:52
  fall fall into place. And no, I have no regrets.
• 12:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Why is your advisor surprised or was he?
• 13:00
  Stephen Theberge: I don't know if my advisor even ever knew.
• 13:03
  I don't know if they left later or because I didn't really talk to him later on in the.
• 13:07
  I did because I was pretty much doing all right. You know, I think in the beginning
• 13:10
  they're they're more. I don't know if he was there when I graduated,
• 13:14
  but I would have liked to say, yeah, I took your advice.
• 13:17
  I got two degrees, but.
• 13:19
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's okay too.
• 13:20
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. Thanks for the. Thanks for
• 13:22
  the advice. Yeah.
• 13:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, goodness. Now, here is something I would love you to unpack for our listeners.
• 13:32
  Okay. You were studying computer science in the early to mid 1980s,
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  long before those screen readers and the, you know,
• 13:46
  mainstream accessibility we know today.
• 13:51
  How on earth did you actually do the coursework and what did access look like for
• 13:59
  a blind college student back then?
• 14:03
  Stephen Theberge: Well, I did have a friend who went to another school and the text to speech was just start.
• 14:09
  He was totally blind. He would not have made it without text to speech.
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  Now, I was fortunate at that time to have some vision.
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  I used a closed circuit television or they used to call it a visual text.
• 14:20
  Yes, especially with the English.
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  There was a lot of reading and learning how to type.
• 14:25
  So it was like I didn't always have to see what was on the screen.
• 14:29
  Of course it was. It was a struggle, but it was definitely a struggle.
• 14:33
  And I know some people would know it would notice.
• 14:35
  Like I had my face an inch away from the screen.
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  I don't know, I guess I was very Determined.
• 14:42
  But no, they didn't really have.
• 14:44
  Even I was there even really before the internet.
• 14:48
  I mean, they they it wasn't they didn't even PCs were just starting.
• 14:53
  And so it was totally like on the edge of just everything was starting.
• 14:58
  And that was exciting to me because it was like the timing was awesome because I could
• 15:04
  see things were hitting, you know, the PC came out and yeah,
• 15:09
  we didn't talk about accessibility at all in those days,
• 15:12
  but they did have some, some rudimentary text to speech.
• 15:16
  And I know in the beginning they had a whole bunch of different options.
• 15:19
  And, you know, and finally the certain companies made it like,
• 15:22
  you know, jaws and of course, the Apple computers.
• 15:25
  But back then it was it was like the Wild West,
• 15:28
  you know, but when I was in school, we didn't even the personal computers weren't
• 15:33
  a common thing. I had a Texas instrument computer in my house,
• 15:37
  and it was like one of the first ones.
• 15:40
  You know, it had nothing.
• 15:41
  It had 32 K ram and you know, it looked like a breadbox.
• 15:45
  And you put this big card in there for expansion memory expansion.
• 15:48
  And it was one sided 90 K floppy disk.
• 15:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 15:53
  Stephen Theberge: It was it was a totally but it was I guess that was just to me it was exciting.
• 15:58
  So I, I really loved being in that field at the time.
• 16:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess we've come such a long way right from that.
• 16:06
  Stephen Theberge: Unreal. Yeah.
• 16:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's unreal. Like, I mean, if you talk to today's generation about what
• 16:11
  you just described, they would they wouldn't know what we talked.
• 16:14
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. I remember I'd, I'd run the, I'd bring the punch cards to
• 16:18
  the dispatcher.
• 16:19
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And.
• 16:19
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. And then I would go and have coffee and come back and pick up my readout.
• 16:23
  It was like totally different.
• 16:25
  And then finally they got terminals in the college.
• 16:28
  So you didn't have to do the punch cards anymore.
• 16:30
  But we never got to see the computer in the basement.
• 16:34
  It was like a magical Wizard of Oz thing.
• 16:37
  It's like, don't don't you don't you can't see that.
• 16:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. It reminds me of the very first Kurzweil machine.
• 16:44
  I don't know if you're familiar. Oh, yes. That was so big.
• 16:47
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah, it had all these keys on it, and it was unreal.
• 16:51
  Yeah. Yeah. Those were exciting times.
• 16:53
  Growing up, it was like, really the it just everything opened up and
• 16:58
  it was an exciting time for me to be in computers.
• 17:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now, from the late 1980s through to the beginning of the new
• 17:11
  millennium, you started and ran your own business building software for blind and
• 17:20
  visually impaired people.
• 17:22
  Tell us about that venture in your own words,
• 17:27
  and what did you build and what were you trying to solve?
• 17:32
  Stephen Theberge: Well, at the time I was concerned about the cost of,
• 17:37
  you know, because there was like everything was expensive.
• 17:40
  Yeah. And I, I did come up with an alternative.
• 17:44
  And I actually was able to test it when I did have surgery in 94.
• 17:48
  I had no vision. And I said, oh, this really works,
• 17:50
  you know, because I could see a little. And it was really the hardest part was really
• 17:56
  getting the word out. Like I said, there were, there were companies and text to
• 18:02
  speech, you know, different devices out there were a whole bunch of them.
• 18:07
  I had a whole, whole catalog of all kinds of.
• 18:10
  And that's when it was like the Wild West, like I said earlier.
• 18:13
  So at the time, it was really exciting.
• 18:15
  And so by the time the early 2000 hit computers changed.
• 18:23
  The big companies and standards are good, I think,
• 18:26
  I think we need like things settled down and the big companies kind of took over.
• 18:31
  So it really wasn't possible for me as an individual to keep developing a screen
• 18:36
  reader. But I had a good run at it.
• 18:40
  I mean, it was exciting to get to talk to people overseas and,
• 18:45
  you know, emails and online.
• 18:48
  The world was so different than it was, you know?
• 18:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How many years did you stay in that area?
• 18:57
  Stephen Theberge: Probably a good five. 5 to 10.
• 19:00
  Really? Yeah. I think I think in the 2000 came.
• 19:04
  Even the software changed where I couldn't really do it visually anymore because it was
• 19:10
  all GUI and there wasn't access tools.
• 19:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 19:13
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. I commend anyone that's doing software development today,
• 19:16
  which I'm not really doing anymore.
• 19:19
  But it wasn't really possible for me to do it anymore because it was,
• 19:24
  you know, so visual and there was just no way I could,
• 19:28
  I could keep up. And, and again, the big companies,
• 19:31
  you know, jaws was really exploding and.
• 19:34
  Which is good. I mean, you know, a lot of people criticize it,
• 19:37
  but we we do need standards.
• 19:39
  And so now we have Nvda, jaws and VoiceOver pretty much of the basics
• 19:45
  for most people.
• 19:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, this is a good history lesson for anyone listening who is of the younger generation,
• 19:53
  you know, because they have no clue where we all started and where we are today.
• 20:00
  They just think, well, you know, it just happened magically.
• 20:02
  Stephen Theberge: But and computers are slow dial up.
• 20:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. I mean, dial up.
• 20:07
  Stephen Theberge: I remember Napster would you'd be like eight hours to download an album and now today,
• 20:12
  today it takes like 10s to up, you know, 2 or 3 minutes to update my phone
• 20:18
  and it's like, we're impatient.
• 20:20
  We get we get so spoiled.
• 20:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And we didn't have YouTube in those days.
• 20:25
  No MP3's and all the players.
• 20:30
  My God, I could go on and on, but let's keep going here.
• 20:34
  Something you have said about those years really stayed with me.
• 20:40
  And this is that the promise of access and the actual affordability of access were two
• 20:50
  entirely different things.
• 20:53
  Our community still lives with that gap today.
• 20:57
  What did you see back then and how much of it has really changed?
• 21:05
  Stephen Theberge: Well, back then it was like, you know, open.
• 21:08
  It was open, you know, free for all the development was out.
• 21:12
  Like I said, I, I couldn't name the synthesizers that were out there.
• 21:17
  Yeah, yeah. I remember I used the Covox speech thing,
• 21:20
  I think it was called it was a speaker.
• 21:22
  And that's what I used for my screen reader. But there was so many options for,
• 21:26
  you know, like text to speech.
• 21:29
  I, I know people criticize And.
• 21:33
  But really the iPhone really is that it's expensive,
• 21:37
  but it's like it is a computer.
• 21:38
  And if you get enough training on it, it really is access for all.
• 21:44
  And you're not paying extra like you do, you know,
• 21:46
  you buy a PC and then you go buy jaws.
• 21:49
  I do like the fact that jaws has the subscription.
• 21:52
  I know a lot of people complain about that, but that really helped me because I know that
• 21:57
  VOC rehab wasn't going to pay for it the rest of my life,
• 21:59
  which I don't need them to anymore.
• 22:01
  And, you know, a hundred a year, it's a lot,
• 22:03
  but it's not like $600 at once.
• 22:08
  I mean, so I think, you know, there's a lot of criticisms to go around.
• 22:13
  And, you know, I, you read all the time online about some people are very negative
• 22:18
  and there's fair criticism.
• 22:20
  You know, I, you could probably have a whole show just on that.
• 22:23
  But yeah.
• 22:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, people tend to criticize more than look at,
• 22:27
  you know, the glass being half full as opposed to half empty.
• 22:30
  And I, you know, I try to tell them, you know,
• 22:32
  come on, folks, grow up, you know.
• 22:35
  Stephen Theberge: Well, if they remember what it used to be like,
• 22:37
  it was like no access almost, you know?
• 22:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, like we've come from did you know
• 22:45
  Braille in those days?
• 22:47
  Stephen Theberge: No, that that was an interesting now, I remember I had asked to learn Braille,
• 22:52
  and I guess one of the teachers said, oh, you won't have to worry about that. Your
• 22:56
  prognosis is now, I think if I had one, you know,
• 22:58
  I just didn't question as much back then if if I had told my parents,
• 23:02
  they might have advocated for me to get Braille.
• 23:04
  So I learned it later in life and I wish I had learned it.
• 23:09
  But then again, I don't know, maybe I wouldn't have really been that
• 23:14
  interested in it. You know, because the mind,
• 23:16
  you know, you go to your vision, it's just a natural thing.
• 23:20
  And so it might not have, you know, it's easy to look back and say,
• 23:23
  I should, I should have taken I, I think it would have been nice if I had the
• 23:27
  opportunity, but I'm getting along pretty well with the Braille now.
• 23:32
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. I think a lot of people misjudge Braille,
• 23:35
  but I know for me, I, I really, you know, embrace it.
• 23:38
  I really appreciate it.
• 23:40
  Stephen Theberge: Well, they always say we have. Technology and it's like,
• 23:42
  bingo, you can use a Braille display and it's expanded.
• 23:48
  It's it's not dying. It's like it's not Braille books anymore.
• 23:52
  And you know, you can do things in any language.
• 23:57
  And it's really, I think it opens the world.
• 24:00
  And another reason I like to you know, talking about the glass half full or half
• 24:06
  empty, it's like if I ever did lose my hearing,
• 24:09
  Braille would be the only way I could communicate with the outside world.
• 24:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. I never thought of that.
• 24:14
  But you're right. Very true.
• 24:18
  What became of that software in the end?
• 24:22
  I ask because I think of our community, you know,
• 24:28
  loses its own technological history.
• 24:31
  Very quickly, tools that mattered, you know,
• 24:37
  enormously to the people who use them.
• 24:40
  Simply stop running to one day and then nobody writes it down.
• 24:49
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. It basically became obsolete because of course they had dos back
• 24:54
  in the day. So that.
• 24:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yeah.
• 24:57
  Stephen Theberge: I actually knew somebody about ten years ago that was still using DOS.
• 25:01
  And of course, all they can do is email.
• 25:03
  And I said, if your computer ever does break down,
• 25:06
  you're going to have no choice. You're going to have to go to windows. But yeah,
• 25:10
  it just became obsolete because like I said, I couldn't keep up with developing it.
• 25:15
  And you know, and then and then software, the tools,
• 25:20
  software tools started getting more expensive.
• 25:23
  So it was, it was financially getting out of reach where I could keep up.
• 25:26
  And it was like everything started being done by teams and there was just no way I could
• 25:32
  keep up with that.
• 25:35
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So basically, you were forced to really
• 25:37
  change course, right?
• 25:38
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah.
• 25:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Among the materials that you share publicly,
• 25:45
  you have kept a television appearance from WJAR channel ten,
• 25:54
  right, dated February 8th, 1998.
• 26:01
  Right. That is 34 years ago.
• 26:07
  What was that that moment like?
• 26:10
  And what does it mean to you that you have held on to it all this time?
• 26:18
  Stephen Theberge: Well, at the time it was my first appearance on TV showing a screen reader.
• 26:24
  And I just thought, you know, this could be the beginning of something big.
• 26:29
  It wasn't. I mean, it's kind of forgotten and it's just a nostalgic.
• 26:33
  But it was it was just the excitement of the times.
• 26:36
  It was like, wow, we actually got got noticed because,
• 26:40
  you know, I was sending press releases and it was,
• 26:43
  it was like the only station that said, oh, well,
• 26:46
  we'll send someone over and interview you. So it was like,
• 26:49
  because I did it all myself, you know, sending this stuff out and you know
• 26:54
  that anyone even answered me.
• 26:55
  It was amazing because like, there was that was the only station that
• 27:00
  said, you know, nobody else. And so it was, it was exciting.
• 27:03
  I thought maybe this could be the beginning of something really big.
• 27:08
  So I was a big dreamer.
• 27:10
  And, you know, I don't have any regrets, but I thought, man,
• 27:12
  this is going to be great.
• 27:14
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. But sometimes, you know, if you believe you can
• 27:17
  achieve. Right?
• 27:18
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 27:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And this is what, you know, I'm presently working on to teach to kids
• 27:24
  preparing to leave high school and young adults,
• 27:27
  if you believe you can achieve.
• 27:28
  But you've got to have the dream first of all. Right?
• 27:31
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah.
• 27:32
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, sounds like you you were a big
• 27:35
  dreamer. Sorry. Go ahead.
• 27:36
  Stephen Theberge: It's a matter of saying, you know, and it does sound corny.
• 27:40
  If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
• 27:42
  But it's so true. There's that stubborn optimism again.
• 27:46
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 27:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. You're right, you're right.
• 27:50
  In 2014, you went to the Carroll Center for the blind for Vision Rehabilitation,
• 28:00
  to learn to, you know, compensate for vision that was getting worse
• 28:06
  and to get current with assistive technology.
• 28:11
  What made you decide that it was time to go?
• 28:18
  Stephen Theberge: Well, I couldn't live in denial anymore about my vision loss.
• 28:21
  And the doctors knew that they didn't have a date,
• 28:27
  that I was losing my vision.
• 28:28
  There was no there was nothing they could do about it.
• 28:32
  And when I got to the assessment at the chiral center,
• 28:35
  it was a two week assessment.
• 28:37
  And, you know, they said, okay, what do you how do you do email?
• 28:40
  And, you know, I have my face literally almost on the screen.
• 28:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 28:45
  Stephen Theberge: And they say, you gotta learn jaws.
• 28:47
  And I'll tell you from taking an hour to read emails to have it done in five minutes with
• 28:53
  jaws, I said, yeah, I'm in.
• 28:55
  You know, and, and, and then other techniques,
• 28:57
  daily techniques, blindness, non-visual skills.
• 29:01
  I, I never thought about it.
• 29:03
  You know, they didn't really talk about that at Perkins,
• 29:05
  but Perkins wasn't really it was more academic learning.
• 29:09
  You know, people learn Braille. They. I had large print,
• 29:12
  but I didn't really. They didn't talk about losing vision or vision loss at Perkins.
• 29:17
  We we lived with it. You know, there were blind people.
• 29:20
  But it wasn't a conscious thing.
• 29:22
  And I think a lot of the low vision, it's like the denial.
• 29:27
  But when you start bumping into things, I ran into a branch and it knocked my glasses
• 29:31
  off and I had it was like it was a week away.
• 29:33
  I said, yeah, I think it's time to go.
• 29:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you felt a bit of pain before you said time to go.
• 29:41
  Right? Yeah. And that's always the case with most people.
• 29:44
  They don't want to admit that they can't see or they're losing it.
• 29:47
  I guess maybe it's pride.
• 29:49
  Maybe it's, it's not concern but
• 29:52
  fear. Right.
• 29:54
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah.
• 29:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's a bit of everything.
• 29:58
  And then 2019, you lost the remainder of your vision and you returned to the Carroll Center
• 30:07
  for what you have described as a refresher in honing your,
• 30:14
  you know, non-visual skills.
• 30:19
  And Steven, you were already experienced, capable blind man by then.
• 30:26
  What is it like to go back and be a student again at that stage of your life?
• 30:34
  And what would you say to someone who is frightened of exactly that
• 30:41
  transition right now?
• 30:44
  Stephen Theberge: Well, I would say I was fortunate.
• 30:46
  Like when I did lose my vision, I was, you know,
• 30:48
  I had I said, I'm going to need some momentum.
• 30:51
  You know, I'm kind of rusty.
• 30:52
  You know, I was using my cane since 2014.
• 30:56
  But and I remember I went home that day.
• 30:59
  I came home, I was at traveling and it took me an hour to get home when it's normally
• 31:05
  should take 25 minutes.
• 31:07
  I mean, I did it. So I said, okay, I'm going to get some on one O and M,
• 31:11
  you know, but then they were like, maybe you should go back to the Carroll
• 31:16
  Center. And I was like, I said, no, I, I don't want to take,
• 31:21
  out time from work and all that.
• 31:23
  The work, they were great when my work was at the Mbta.
• 31:28
  They were like, yeah, you take take your time,
• 31:30
  you know, we'll still be here.
• 31:32
  So so the fear, I think the first time there was a lot going on in my life,
• 31:38
  I was grieving. I, I was a nervous wreck.
• 31:42
  I was, I was so I did learn a lot, but the second time I was like,
• 31:46
  oh, I got this. And it was just so smooth.
• 31:49
  And I said, I wish I had had that.
• 31:51
  So the first time and it's people say, well,
• 31:56
  you're so courageous, but I think it's just sometimes you just have
• 32:00
  to surrender whatever that whatever you define as surrender and say,
• 32:04
  I'm not in control. So and I, I lost my vision at the end of August in
• 32:10
  2019. And then of course, I had to stop going in because Covid,
• 32:15
  Covid hit. So I was doing a lot of remote, which was.
• 32:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 32:18
  Stephen Theberge: So, but to me, Covid was like, yeah, it's too bad we can't go out.
• 32:22
  But it was like, you know, people always like to think they're in
• 32:25
  control. So I was like, well, I wasn't in control before Covid.
• 32:29
  So to me, Covid wasn't a big deal.
• 32:31
  It's like, well, I'm still going to learn skills.
• 32:34
  I can do it from home.
• 32:36
  And I would have never learned Braille.
• 32:38
  I had more time at home one on one, which I would have never got in person at the
• 32:42
  at the center, you know, because it would have been 12 weeks.
• 32:45
  Time's up. So they they really stretched it out.
• 32:49
  So I was more like the second time I said, yeah,
• 32:53
  I really want to learn Braille grade two.
• 32:56
  And I was, you know, it's, it's that motivation and it's not giving up
• 33:02
  in the fear. Yeah. It's, it's hard to say, don't be afraid,
• 33:06
  but you kind of have to find that mindset where you're just going to push through it.
• 33:11
  It's not that you're not afraid, but you just say, well,
• 33:14
  I'm going to do my best and, and stop beating yourself up.
• 33:17
  Like that was another thing. I was always trying too hard to be perfect,
• 33:22
  and there was a teacher there that she was actually teaching special ed,
• 33:30
  and she was losing her vision and she was like,
• 33:33
  you know, I didn't just slow down and enjoy, enjoy it with what you're doing here.
• 33:37
  And it's like, I never forgot it.
• 33:39
  It's like, slow down. Yeah, take your time.
• 33:41
  There's no rush. It's no race.
• 33:43
  Do your best. And because I was like the assessment,
• 33:47
  I was like, I just want to get through this. You know, it's like you're going to be here
• 33:51
  the same amount of time. You may as well enjoy it as much as you can enjoy
• 33:55
  something like that.
• 33:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it has to do a lot with maturity, confidence in who you are and to know that
• 34:03
  you want to do it. I mean, a lot of people are definitely afraid,
• 34:07
  especially when they're losing their vision, right?
• 34:09
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah.
• 34:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But, you know, I think this is a great story.
• 34:13
  You know, now you work with Jaws on windows and with voice over on
• 34:23
  iOS. You have used an assistive technology across more decades than almost anyone
• 34:33
  listening to this now.
• 34:35
  When you sit down at a computer today, what feels genuinely miraculous compared to
• 34:44
  where you started and what still frustrates you?
• 34:50
  Stephen Theberge: I think the biggest thing when I if I hadn't gone to the Carroll Center and learned jaws,
• 34:57
  I would have never written my first book.
• 34:59
  I was starting to write my first book, but it wasn't going to happen either.
• 35:02
  I'd have to have someone read it to me, or so jaws gave me that liberation.
• 35:07
  And yeah, what's frustrating sometimes is when things don't work the way they're
• 35:12
  supposed to, or it's not speaking or.
• 35:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right.
• 35:17
  Stephen Theberge: Websites of course. So there are a lot of frustrating things.
• 35:23
  I could probably make a big list, but it's just like things don't work the way
• 35:28
  they're supposed to and you have to.
• 35:30
  That's one thing I'm glad I, you know, a lot of people,
• 35:33
  it's like, you know, they don't have that troubleshooting background that I had.
• 35:36
  So I'm not going to give up.
• 35:38
  But I understand where people are frustrated because it's like,
• 35:42
  it shouldn't be that difficult.
• 35:44
  And it's a lot better than it used to be.
• 35:46
  But there's still a lot of things that have to be worked on.
• 35:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And then you have, you know, like adaptive technology,
• 35:53
  not keeping up with the changes, and then it breaks and they say,
• 35:57
  oh God, where do I get the training?
• 36:00
  Who is going to help me out?
• 36:01
  And you still have a lot of people who are afraid of,
• 36:05
  of our technology, right?
• 36:07
  Yeah. But it's not as bad as, say, maybe 2 or 3 years ago.
• 36:11
  I mean, I have a technician who's really not afraid.
• 36:13
  He takes the bull by the horns.
• 36:14
  But you still have people who say this thing talks.
• 36:17
  I don't know what to do.
• 36:18
  Right.
• 36:19
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. It's different. It's a different tolerance.
• 36:23
  I mean, I know somebody, they self-taught themselves.
• 36:27
  They never went to a training center. They find all their life they got jaws and just
• 36:32
  pretty much went through the menus.
• 36:34
  And, you know, you can do it that way.
• 36:36
  It's going to take time and persistence. But,
• 36:39
  you know, but, you know, some people say, well,
• 36:41
  I get confused in the menus and it's like, I get it.
• 36:44
  But it's, you know, everyone has a different,
• 36:47
  different set of, you know, what they can, what they're going to
• 36:50
  tolerate. But I mean, she taught herself French Braille and we do
• 36:54
  French stuff together.
• 36:55
  It's really cool.
• 36:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. I heard about French Braille.
• 37:01
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah. They, I guess the old days that, oh, that's a whole other issue with the USB.
• 37:05
  And you get all kinds of opinions on that.
• 37:08
  And it's like, well.
• 37:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm my Braille and yeah.
• 37:13
  Stephen Theberge: God has always been changing.
• 37:15
  It's not like it just changed overnight.
• 37:17
  It's a big change, I get it.
• 37:19
  When and that was what I was grateful for in vision.
• 37:22
  Rehab is learning the old and the new, which I didn't think you'd be in the old
• 37:27
  contracted. Yeah, there's differences, but they were like,
• 37:30
  you should really learn both because the old Braille isn't going away.
• 37:34
  There's going to be a lot of old stuff around.
• 37:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 37:37
  Stephen Theberge: And to me, I cannot. I mean, writing it might be different.
• 37:40
  I probably should do more writing, but I can pretty much read UEB and the other
• 37:45
  older Braille without much difficulty.
• 37:48
  I liked. I like the old Braille I do.
• 37:50
  A lot of people say I like the old. I like the snuggling and,
• 37:53
  you know, and into the and things like that.
• 37:56
  That's kind of neat, which they don't do when you leave.
• 38:01
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, this is really, I think would be really great for our listeners to know a lot about,
• 38:06
  you know, like you've come a long way history wise to me.
• 38:10
  Yeah. No. Folks starting to wind down.
• 38:15
  But here's a question for you.
• 38:16
  Let's talk about transit, because this is where your advocacy became a
• 38:23
  job. You have worked as an A D a compliance tester for the Massachusetts Bay
• 38:33
  Transportation Authority.
• 38:37
  Tell our listeners what that work actually involves and bring us up to date on where
• 38:46
  things stand for you with the MBTA today.
• 38:53
  Stephen Theberge: Well, basically what they do is they pair a disabled person with with an observer who
• 39:00
  usually they have perfect sight.
• 39:02
  They do a lot of documentation with things I couldn't read, like the bus number,
• 39:05
  and it's all documented the route they give you a route and you.
• 39:10
  I used to say I was an undercover, but I wasn't really a cop.
• 39:14
  But it was basically saying, do do we.
• 39:17
  Are they doing the stop and nonsense?
• 39:19
  There's a whole checklist of things.
• 39:20
  And sometimes they say, ask them to deploy the ramp.
• 39:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 39:24
  Stephen Theberge: And things like, which I don't usually use, but it's testing all the systems.
• 39:28
  And you have to know, like if the, if the stop announcements aren't
• 39:32
  working, what are they? What are they supposed to do?
• 39:34
  They're supposed to announce the major connections and there's a whole checklist.
• 39:39
  And then if there are violations, it's more educating,
• 39:43
  you know, that. I mean, if someone's chronically has issues with with
• 39:47
  with that, they will fire them.
• 39:50
  But they want to educate because it all came about from Boston Center for Independent
• 39:55
  Living. There was a class action lawsuit.
• 39:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 39:59
  Stephen Theberge: And, and they're still committed to it. I think pretty much the lawsuit is resolved.
• 40:03
  And they didn't really do it for financial.
• 40:06
  They just said, we want this to be accessible.
• 40:08
  And there's, there's a there's a whole video on how it started in the history of it.
• 40:12
  So I was part of that, you know, running the system and,
• 40:15
  and, you know, and what we would do at the end is especially if there were violations,
• 40:21
  is like, is this a, a flagrant violation?
• 40:25
  And you, we had to be on the same page.
• 40:28
  So it was like, you know, I had to write my own words.
• 40:31
  I could say, oh, I agree with Scott. You know what he says? I know you got to write up what
• 40:34
  happened. So you we had to have a consensus like,
• 40:38
  and I learned a valuable lesson.
• 40:39
  One day I made a bad assumption.
• 40:42
  There was a bus driver and he, he could I could tell he had an accent.
• 40:47
  He was. And I asked him, you know, do you stop at so and so?
• 40:52
  And apparently my. The observer said later, oh.
• 40:55
  He nodded. So it's like it's kind of a there's a lot of gray.
• 40:59
  There's a lot of gray in that job, so I.
• 41:01
  Because I said it must be a language barrier.
• 41:03
  And he said, no, he understood you.
• 41:05
  He nodded. I said it. Obviously that's not going to help you.
• 41:09
  You can't see. But so these things are not always black and white.
• 41:13
  And he said, well, I'll we'll write it down what happened?
• 41:17
  But we're not going to call it a violation.
• 41:19
  It's like, it's very, very gray because you don't want to sit there
• 41:25
  and say, these are all the rules.
• 41:26
  And, you know, there are things that are, you know,
• 41:30
  important, more important than others.
• 41:32
  I can't remember specifics.
• 41:33
  You know, some things are more serious than others.
• 41:36
  Like like missing your stop is probably more important than whether he nodded or not.
• 41:41
  And so I think, I think the bus driver did say,
• 41:45
  you know what, that we were at that stop.
• 41:48
  So it's all these things to put together and things to remember.
• 41:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 41:55
  Stephen Theberge: And and no. Two, you know, you can, you know,
• 41:58
  it's not a boring job because it's very rare.
• 42:01
  You have two days that are the same. It's all,
• 42:03
  you know, the routes you start, you kind of learn because there are certain
• 42:06
  problems, areas that you're going to do over again.
• 42:09
  You know, maybe, but it's like it's never the same.
• 42:13
  You know, just when you think you've seen and heard it all,
• 42:18
  something comes up that you never thought about.
• 42:20
  So it was exciting. I'm not doing it anymore,
• 42:24
  but I think I stopped in 22.
• 42:26
  But yeah, it was, I enjoyed it because and, and that was the best.
• 42:32
  You know, I know we were talking about Perkins and they were talking about open
• 42:36
  house. They used to have the kids, you know,
• 42:39
  sit around and they'd bring people in and, and they were like,
• 42:42
  it was like an exhibit.
• 42:44
  And someone said last night, every day is an open house for us blind.
• 42:48
  You know, we have to perform every day.
• 42:50
  So it was really interesting.
• 42:51
  I met a lot of nice people, a lot of interesting people.
• 42:54
  And yeah, you meet some people that aren't so nice,
• 42:57
  but I thought it was great just getting out and with good exercise,
• 43:01
  you know, because I'd be, you know, walking a lot.
• 43:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear in your voice that you really, really enjoyed it.
• 43:09
  Stephen Theberge: The passion. Because I think, you know, we have such so many transportation
• 43:15
  issues. I don't know how.
• 43:17
  I know you were talking about Canada, and I'd be interested to compare notes on
• 43:22
  that. Like what's the transportation and accessibility on websites?
• 43:26
  And yeah, so it's to me, it's, you know, that's one of the main things
• 43:32
  of independence. And yeah, it's nice to get a ride,
• 43:36
  but it's nice to say I'm going to go to.
• 43:38
  And that's another reason you were saying, you know, I can go anywhere.
• 43:42
  I can go to Boston. It's only an hour away.
• 43:45
  It's a little time commuting.
• 43:47
  But and then I can come home and it's nice and quiet,
• 43:50
  you know? That's why I like living here.
• 43:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I love your attitude. And I think, you know,
• 43:56
  we're to the end of your interview, but I would invite you to come back,
• 44:02
  you know, one day, not too long in the future to talk more about this.
• 44:06
  I've truly enjoyed, you know your descriptions of Perkins and the Carroll
• 44:11
  Center and, you know, everything that you've done,
• 44:15
  I think it's great. And I know that our listeners would truly appreciate and enjoy
• 44:20
  this interview. So I want to thank you for having taken the time to be with us today.
• 44:26
  And please, if ever you wanted to come back and talk about,
• 44:30
  you know, your authorship, what you've written,
• 44:33
  what are you doing? But tell me in, in, in just a short minute or so,
• 44:40
  what do you think the future is for our kids?
• 44:44
  Stephen Theberge: It depends what's going on that day in the news,
• 44:47
  I think, you know, I always hear about people talk about the youth of today and I don't
• 44:54
  know, I haven't, I haven't run across you know,
• 44:59
  I've run across a lot of nice people, you know,
• 45:01
  they say they don't have any respect. And, you know,
• 45:04
  I know some adults that could work on that and they're older than I.
• 45:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes.
• 45:08
  Stephen Theberge: I, I, I'm kind of scared for the future.
• 45:10
  I think you know, there are a lot of things I wouldn't,
• 45:13
  I don't know if I'd want to be a kid growing up today because the world is just so
• 45:18
  overwhelmed with.
• 45:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 45:21
  Stephen Theberge: You know, it's like we didn't have that. We we had the news once a day and we didn't have
• 45:27
  24 over seven. And the social media it has its advantages,
• 45:32
  but it's like just too much.
• 45:35
  I mean, you really we need.
• 45:36
  My dad was invented it before social media.
• 45:40
  Like let's have some electronic piece.
• 45:42
  You turn off the TV and say, you know, just sit here and it's like,
• 45:45
  yeah, you can hear the birds or you can, we can still do that,
• 45:48
  but it's harder because we're so distracted and I don't.
• 45:52
  And for what? I don't know.
• 45:54
  So I'm, I'm hopeful for the kids of today.
• 45:57
  But but then again, it, it, I think if people have,
• 46:03
  you know, I understand there's a lot of things to be afraid of and to worry about.
• 46:07
  But I mean, we got through the Cold War and the,
• 46:11
  you know, we thought the world was coming to an end when we were growing up.
• 46:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 46:14
  Stephen Theberge: And here we are.
• 46:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It was a pleasure, Stephen.
• 46:19
  I really, really enjoyed it.
• 46:20
  And like I said, if ever you wanted to come back,
• 46:23
  please get in touch with me and
• 46:25
  let me know. Okay.
• 46:26
  Stephen Theberge: That'd be great. I'd love to talk about my books.
• 46:29
  I guess that's the only thing we haven't talked about. Really?
• 46:32
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, we haven't, and I'd like to talk about it.
• 46:34
  So maybe sometime early in the new year, I'll contact you and you could come
• 46:39
  back and talk about it.
• 46:40
  Stephen Theberge: Sounds good. I can tie it all together for you.
• 46:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've really enjoyed this interview because this is one of the first interviews where
• 46:47
  someone is able to talk about the, what I call the good
• 46:51
  old days, you know.
• 46:52
  Stephen Theberge: Good old days.
• 46:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, the good old days.
• 46:55
  And I yearn for that. Sometimes.
• 46:57
  I say, I wish I could sit on a beach with my book and leave me alone.
• 47:01
  Stephen Theberge: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
• 47:04
  I like the old days. We'd be waiting for the next week,
• 47:07
  and it's like last week, as you recall.
• 47:09
  And it's like, I'm, I missed that now it's like we,
• 47:12
  we watch seven episodes of a show.
• 47:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:17
  Stephen Theberge: There's no, there's. No drama anymore.
• 47:20
  It's like it's no anticipation.
• 47:22
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. So thank you very, very much.
• 47:25
  And we'll be in touch with you early in the new year to see if we could arrange another
• 47:30
  interview with you. How's that?
• 47:32
  Stephen Theberge: Sounds good. Sounds great.
• 47:33
  Thanks, Donna.
• 47:34
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Steve. And you take care.
• 47:36
  Stephen Theberge: All right. You too.
• 47:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Bye bye. Now.
• 47:43
  Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donna@gmail.com.
• 47:49
  Until next time.