Latest / Energy Empire / Russell Gold on Leaving The Wall Street Journal for the Solar Industry

Transcript

Russell Gold on Leaving The Wall Street Journal for the Solar Industry · Energy Empire

0:00
The renewable and energy industry in this country was
0:02
sort of born from a bunch of people getting together wearing
0:05
Birkenstocks and sandals in San Francisco ballroom, right?
0:10
I mean, and, you know, it's like, let's do something good.
0:13
And I said, look, that smallest beautiful era is over.
0:16
And you guys, you brought a fan to a gunfight, right?
0:19
The fossil fuel industry is not going to take this line down.
0:22
They're coming after you. They're going to play bare
0:25
knuckles. And you guys have to do the
0:26
same. Hi, my name is Sugar Shah and
0:34
I'm a clean energy entrepreneur. And I'm Jamie Nolan, a clean
0:37
energy communications consultant.
0:39
And this is Energy Empire. I was gobsmacked today, Jamie,
0:44
when JP Morgan said that we're going to hit $5 a gallon at the
0:48
end of April. It is bonkers.
0:52
I am sure that the White House is freaking out because like
0:55
literally like the best indicator of like how well a
1:00
president is doing or not doing is like gas prices.
1:03
I know. I mean, whether or not it be
1:05
it's fair sometimes. I definitely argued with that as
1:09
a yardstick for measuring the president.
1:11
That being said, I don't think that anyone can deny that the
1:15
reason that gas prices are as high as they are is due to
1:19
policy choices by this administration.
1:21
So I mean, I was driving up and down the East Coast this week on
1:24
spring break across North Carolina, Virginia and Maryland
1:28
and just kind of watching the prices go up and up at the at
1:31
the gas stations. I mean, I drive an EV so I'm not
1:35
as affected as a lot of folks. But I mean, you know, prices
1:39
raising 20% when that is like a primary expenditure for your
1:43
household, that is those are real costs.
1:45
Those really hurt people. Totally.
1:47
I mean, I'm also seeing just like huge increases in electric
1:51
vehicle sales, big increases in hybrid vehicle sales, like folks
1:56
are snapping up, like used DV's, like it's getting real out
2:00
there. Like I feel like folks are
2:01
looking for alternatives. Totally.
2:03
I mean, welcome to the party. We're happy to have everyone.
2:06
Welcome to the the EV game. You know, there's plenty of us
2:10
here. I'm always happy to welcome new
2:12
people into the folds, whether or not it be due to some very
2:18
concerning geopolitical moments, but nonetheless, here we are.
2:22
So that actually is a great segue into today's episode.
2:27
Our guest today is Russell Gold, who is a former journalist that
2:31
I used to pitch when he worked at the Wall Street Journal and
2:33
then it Texas Monthly. So I was really excited to have
2:36
a chance to talk to him. I love Russell.
2:38
I've known him for so long and I just, I remember, you know, his
2:42
reporting on Campfire 8 years ago with Katherine Blunt, our
2:47
other favorite reporter for the Wall Street Journal.
2:48
And it was just so mesmerizing. They just went through every
2:52
single document. They found all this stuff like
2:55
it was just amazing to see just the depth of their investigative
3:01
reporting. And then of course, Catherine
3:03
ended up writing a book about all of that, which I think Patty
3:08
Poppy ended up making mandatory reading when she became the CEO
3:11
of PG and ES. Yeah, I mean, back to the
3:15
campfire story and their reporting.
3:17
I was actually really surprised when we worked with PG&E at
3:21
LPOI, was expecting to hear from their comms team that Catherine
3:26
Blunt was like persona non grotto over there after that
3:29
reporting. But I was really pleasantly
3:32
surprised. They actually think that there
3:33
is no one who understands the company better after the depth
3:37
of reporting that Russell and Catherine did.
3:39
I think that the company felt that they did a fair job on the
3:41
reporting on that story. And I love to hear that because,
3:45
you know, it seems like they really got it right, but they
3:47
absolutely cut no corners. And so it was really interesting
3:51
talking to Russell about that. And then of course, now he's
3:54
moved on and is working in our sector.
3:56
I think when I saw that on his LinkedIn page that update, I
3:59
gasped because I could not believe he was leaving
4:02
journalism. I, I purposely refuse to believe
4:06
it. Like I actually saw Russell
4:09
after he announced it and I said, what are you doing?
4:11
And he's like, didn't you see the LinkedIn?
4:13
And I was like, I purposely, I thought it was a joke.
4:17
Like, I thought you were still at Texas Monthly or whatever
4:19
else. And like, when you think about
4:21
just how dedicated he is to helping the solo industry do
4:25
better storytelling, we couldn't have a better person, a better,
4:31
you know, grizzled expert than Russell Gold.
4:34
Absolutely. He's an incredible storyteller
4:37
and I'm so happy to have his super, his superpowers in our
4:41
camp now, and I'm really excited to dig in with him on what he
4:45
thinks the clean energy industry can be doing better.
4:53
This episode is supported by S2G Investments.
4:57
If you've been listening to me, you know that I'm done talking
5:00
about R&D. We have the technology.
5:03
The real question is can we deploy it at scale?
5:07
When I joined Sanjeev Krishnan on the S2G podcast, we skipped
5:12
the hype and talked about what actually matters.
5:15
Affordability, fit for purpose, capital, and getting real
5:19
infrastructure built. S2G Investments is one of the
5:23
only firms who brings that same deployment first mindset to
5:28
energy, agriculture and the oceans, connecting the dots
5:32
across the real economy. Listen to the S2G Podcast on
5:37
your favorite podcast app now and start with my episode on
5:42
energy affordability. Russell, I don't remember when
5:51
we first met, but I think it was when you were doing your book
5:54
tour for Super Grid. Is that right?
5:57
It could have been. I think we've been crossing
5:58
paths for at least 10 years now. What energy world is?
6:02
It can be a small world. It is a very small world and
6:05
unfortunately getting smaller. We you spent I think what, 20
6:09
years of the Wall Street Journal covering energy, two time
6:12
Pulitzer finalist. You broke the Deepwater Horizon
6:16
story, exposed PG and ES role in the California wildfires, wrote
6:20
two books. I I think for people who don't
6:23
know your work, what's the story that defined you as a
6:26
journalist? Oh God, that's like choosing
6:30
between my children. I think I think probably my
6:34
favorite story, the one I look back on.
6:37
I mean, the biggest story that I've really been covering for 20
6:40
years and more is the fact that when I started covering the
6:44
energy space in the early 2002 thousand and two or so, you
6:48
know, the United States was an importer, it was going to have
6:52
to focus on shortage. You know, that's how it was
6:54
defined. And 20 years later, you know,
6:57
the United States is this massive energy exporter.
7:00
We have lots of energy. I mean, that's been the big
7:04
giant story I've been sort of wrestling with for 1/4 century
7:07
now. The favorite story I ever worked
7:09
on, probably it was toward the end of my reporting on PG&E and
7:15
the campfire. And this was reporting idea for
7:18
the Wall Street Journal with Catherine Blinds and the late
7:20
Rebecca Smith. And we had gotten, remember the
7:23
whole campfire started because there was a hook sitting out
7:28
there on the Sierra Nevada that failed, that was holding up a
7:30
transmission line. And when it failed, it arced, it
7:34
caused a fire, The fire ran out of control, 80 plus people died.
7:39
And we finally got like a picture of the hook.
7:42
And there was just enough information on that picture that
7:45
we could kind of figure out like when who made it.
7:48
And I, I, I remember, I went and found the manufacturer of it and
7:53
we found early 20th century catalogs from that company.
7:57
And there was one place in the country that had early 20th
8:00
century catalogs. It was the University of
8:02
Illinois Champaign Urbana's library and and I happened to
8:07
have a cousin whose kid was getting an engineering degree.
8:11
And I said, could you do me a favor and just go Xerox a couple
8:14
pages from a couple different catalogs?
8:16
And we're able by, by figuring out exactly when the, the the
8:19
hooks that were being manufactured change, we're able
8:23
to definitively say that the hook had been out there for over
8:26
a century, just sitting in the elements and weather.
8:29
And, you know, it was a small story in the grand scheme of
8:32
things, but just like being able to kind of connect the dots,
8:35
that's, that's where it makes journalism fun.
8:38
Yeah, totally. I love that.
8:39
That's what a great detail. I love that research detail.
8:42
So in addition to the campfire, you covered another one of the
8:45
biggest energy disasters in American history, Deepwater
8:48
Horizon oil spill. Terrible.
8:50
That's one is really, really cemented in my memory.
8:54
And both of those stories are about what happens when energy
8:56
companies cut corners. What do those stories teach you
9:00
about the relationship between energy companies and the public?
9:04
I mean, the energy companies can do amazing things, right?
9:08
I mean, just like the the ability to build a network of
9:12
power in the early 20th century to connect, you know, to capture
9:16
the snow melt and to turn into electricity for San Francisco,
9:20
The ability to go into five mile deep Gulf of Mexico.
9:24
Just forget how many miles, miles and miles from shore and
9:27
have a build a floating, you know, drilling rig that will be
9:32
dynamically positioned and sit there.
9:34
I mean, all of these things are things that energy companies can
9:37
do and they're absolutely amazing that they can pull these
9:40
off. And energy companies love
9:42
talking about that. They're always talking about
9:43
that with the public. What I learned is that there are
9:46
always these hidden risks. Sometimes they manifest after
9:50
100 years, sometimes it's after two or three years.
9:53
And you know, we have to, as much as we celebrate what energy
9:58
companies can do and the quest to bring us the, the barrels and
10:02
the megawatts we, we want and we need, we, we can't take our, you
10:06
know, as the public cannot take your eyes off the wrist and, and
10:09
what's out there and who's keeping an eye on them to make
10:12
sure that they're doing what they should be doing.
10:15
Well, but I mean, on that point, right, like you know who should
10:19
be looking at what they're doing, right On Deepwater
10:21
Horizon, you had Louisiana who played this big role.
10:25
You had BP, which is a large, very large global energy
10:28
company, but UK based, and then you had the federal government,
10:32
right? And so like, I mean, how does
10:34
this really get done in a way that, you know, balances
10:39
everyone's needs? Yeah, it's a great question.
10:42
The federal government was the offshore regulator there, But
10:46
you know, what BP and Transocean, the drilling rig
10:49
company were doing was so cutting edge that I'm not sure
10:52
the federal government had the necessary expertise there to
10:56
really be able to over oversee it.
10:58
You know, there was a lot of trust us, we know what we're
11:01
doing and we certainly don't want to have a massive problem.
11:05
And, you know, 5 miles of water and the truck.
11:10
You know, the government trusted them.
11:12
You know that there was a certain amount of oversight and
11:14
a certain amount of rules, but there was a lot of trust there
11:17
with the Deep Water Horizon and with all Gulf of Mexico offshore
11:20
drilling. And, you know, at the end of the
11:22
day, what happened was there was, you know, there was a
11:25
blowout, which would have been bad enough.
11:27
But the real crisis was that the blowout preventer did not work
11:32
as, as it was expected to. And nobody could get to it.
11:36
And it just, it showed the limits of, you know, human and
11:40
energy industry ingenuity. Yeah, no, I mean, I totally
11:43
agree with you. I'm in awe of what the oil and
11:46
gas industry, and notable energy industry for that matter, it
11:49
does on a day. And we should be and we should
11:52
be. It is amazing stuff.
11:54
But we cannot take that as gospel and say, Oh well then you
11:57
know, they're the cure all that you know.
12:01
I mean, and, you know, I'm so grateful that journalists like
12:04
you that are go in and do real investigations after the fact to
12:08
really, you know, dig into what went wrong.
12:10
But particularly at this moment when we are seeing renewed
12:14
interest in domestic oil drilling and, you know, they
12:17
just resumed drilling off the coast of Santa Barbara, Cobra
12:20
and I saw delivered, you know, the first barrels from that site
12:23
and we're going to see increased drilling in the Gulf.
12:27
What are the lessons that we can carry forward there?
12:29
Like if it who's The Who, how do we avoid this happening?
12:33
It's just, it's, it seems like, you know, the stakes are really
12:37
high and, and we're headed for another environmental disaster
12:41
and it's just a matter of time. I mean, I don't well, hopefully
12:45
not. I think the lesson is that
12:47
imagine the worst case scenario and be prepared for it in the
12:51
deep water horizon that that did not happen.
12:53
Nobody imagined that this could happen and we weren't prepared
12:55
for it. And then we were running around
12:57
trying to figure out how do we, how do we get machinery?
13:01
How do we basically clamp down on a blowout preventer that
13:04
failed and there's an open pipe. So, you know, as we, as we
13:07
continue to explore the Gulf of Mexico, as we restart Santa
13:10
Barbara, imagine someone needs to be sitting down and saying,
13:14
what's the worst case scenario and how can we prepare for it
13:16
Now? How can we have the, the, the
13:19
tools and the boats prepared so that if a worst case scenario
13:23
happens, we're not, you know, we're not just sitting around
13:26
watching on CNN for, for four or five weeks until we can move on
13:29
it. Totally.
13:31
Well, let's hope that the oil companies are doing that
13:34
important planning right now, because I don't think that we
13:37
can count on the federal government to be playing a
13:39
greater role in the regulation of that industry at this moment.
13:42
No, probably not. I mean, now, Russell, my
13:46
understanding is that there's a nasty rumor that after two
13:50
decades as a journalist, you went to go work for a solar
13:53
manufacturing company. And then I may have played an
13:56
accidental role in that based on something I said it at Generate
14:00
capital. Conference No, you know, you're,
14:05
you're 100% correct. You reached out to me.
14:08
You were having, it was on the sidelines of some conference in
14:11
San Antonio and you were gathering together some of your,
14:13
I guess investors or your companies that you were funding
14:17
and you were looking for someone just to do a lunch talk.
14:19
And so you invited me and I went down there and, you know, my
14:22
talk basically was, look, the renewable and energy industry in
14:25
this country was sort of born from a bunch of people getting
14:28
together wearing Birkenstocks and sandals in a San Francisco
14:32
ballroom, right? I mean, and, you know, it's
14:35
like, let's do something good. And I said, look, that smallest
14:38
beautiful era is over and you guys are not thinking, you know,
14:42
you, you brought a fan to a gunfight, right?
14:45
Like the, the, the fossil fuel industry is not going to take
14:48
this line down. They're coming after you.
14:50
They don't, you know, they're going to play bare knuckles and
14:53
you guys have to do the same. And, you know, you gave me this
14:57
venue and you, you, I think you made some comments along those
15:00
lines. And I'm just sitting there
15:01
talking to the developer saying you guys have got to start like
15:04
taking this more seriously. You're becoming the dominant
15:06
energy source. And you're pretending like you
15:09
can't be involved in politics. You're pretending like you can't
15:11
really be involved in lobbying, like you can ignore Washington.
15:14
I said, you guys are crazy. And, you know, in the years
15:18
after that, I kept thinking about it, kept coming back to
15:20
it. And they're like, yeah, that's
15:21
sort of a good point. And so, you know, when I had the
15:24
opportunity, I started. I just kind of go do it myself.
15:27
Love that. We're glad you.
15:28
Did it? I love that you and Jigger were
15:29
both early early adopters of the energy dominance messaging
15:33
sounds. Like definitely.
15:36
So now that you're on the outside looking back and you
15:39
know, major new rooms, newsrooms have gutted their energy beats,
15:42
including the Wall Street Journal, by the way.
15:45
I have heard from my friends there and a lot of the best
15:48
reporting is coming from independent journalists and sub
15:52
stacks. People who have left these major
15:54
newsrooms, what do you think is missing in energy journalism
15:57
right now? And where do you how to see this
15:59
headed? Good.
16:01
Question. I mean, look, legacy, you know,
16:02
first of all, a lot of great friends still left of legacy
16:05
newspapers, some of them who have laughed and, and as someone
16:09
who handles comms and strategy for a renewable energy company,
16:13
I have nothing but good things to say about all my friends who
16:15
are still working in newspapers. So I need to write good stories
16:18
about me. But you know, look, legacy
16:22
newspapers, legacy media, they don't have a monopoly anymore.
16:25
The monopoly has been broken, but that's not better or worse
16:28
than what happened when we started breaking up electric
16:30
monopolies. You know, one of the things
16:32
happened when we started breaking up the electric
16:34
monopolies is that we had a lot of innovation and a lot of
16:36
change and a lot of new ideas, some good, some bad.
16:39
We're going to see the same. You know, that's what we're
16:41
seeing with sub stacks. On a personal level, what I
16:44
think is missing is I would love to see more energy polyglots,
16:47
people who understand not just oil and nuclear, but also
16:51
electricity. There are too many people out
16:53
there who understand, they're one slice.
16:54
They understand it really, really well, can write about it.
16:57
Maybe they're, you know, adherence or, you know, they're,
16:59
they're boosting nuclear or this or that.
17:02
You know, with the energy industry, it, it, it feels like
17:05
it's being smashed up, you know, and blown apart like the Hadron
17:08
Collider right now. And, you know, we need more
17:10
people who can understand the different pieces of it and who
17:13
can speak about geothermal and the pluses and minuses they are,
17:17
just as well as they can speak about solar or natural gas.
17:20
Well, I'm not sure that I'm that person, but I certainly have
17:23
been baptized by fire at the loan programs office.
17:26
I had to learn a lot about a lot of different technologies, but
17:30
like, I'm curious, you know you. Spend you're in the final cut,
17:32
Jigger, you're in the final cut. Like we're taking a vote later
17:36
today. I mean, you've spent most of
17:39
your career in Texas, right? The home of oil and gas, right?
17:42
You and I grew up, like watching Dallas, right?
17:45
On TV, right? I mean, I feel like the oil and
17:49
gas sector has always been better at storytelling, right?
17:52
Red Adair, right, Land man, deep Water Horizon, right, the movie
17:58
like all the way back to Dallas and you know, and giant like
18:03
they've owned the narrative of American energy for decades.
18:06
Like, why? How do you think this changes
18:09
with clean energy? Yeah, I was.
18:12
I was, I want to say, flipping around the television.
18:14
Yeah, I guess I was flipping around the television.
18:16
You can still do that. And I came across an old Dallas
18:19
that was playing on something. I watch it in like 5 or 10
18:21
minutes and I think it was Bobby Ewing talking about like we need
18:25
a diamond tip drilling, you know, bit and it was getting so
18:28
enthusiastic. I was like, Oh yeah, there are
18:31
diamond, you know, they got it. I here's what I think is the
18:35
key. Like when you talk about oil and
18:38
gas mentioned red a day or you know, flames going everywhere.
18:41
Are they going to be able to put it out?
18:44
You know, James Dean and giant soap with oil.
18:47
There's just a natural dramatic narrative.
18:52
We're drilling a well. Is it going to come in?
18:54
Is it not going to come in? And when it comes in, it goes
18:56
spurting up, you know, the Derrick, and it's exciting.
18:59
I'm going to let you guys in on something.
19:01
Renewables are not nearly as dramatic.
19:03
We're kind of boring, right? We're building my company, T1
19:06
Energy. We're building a $400 million
19:08
solar cell fab right now out in Rockdale, TX.
19:11
It's a printing press, more or less, right?
19:14
We're taking silicon wafers and we're running it through a
19:17
printing press and we're going to be doing thousands of them a
19:19
day. It's just not dramatic.
19:22
That natural drama of, Oh my God, is the law going to become
19:25
in? But I don't think that's
19:28
actually bad. Like we don't want our energy to
19:31
be dramatic. We don't want to go through this
19:33
period like, Oh my God, is the Strait of Hormuz going to be
19:35
open or closed? Are we going to be able to get
19:36
our LNG? No, we want energy to be
19:38
abundant. We want it to be reliable.
19:41
And that's why, you know, renewables.
19:42
We might not kind of get the movies, you know, we might not
19:46
get, you know, the exciting movie treatment, but that might
19:50
not be the worst thing because it means that we're kind of
19:52
boring and reliable totally. I don't know.
19:56
I don't know if boring is the brand we're going for, but I
19:58
see, I see what you're headed for.
19:59
I see what you're going for. Well, let's talk about a more
20:03
modern depiction of energy. So Land Man specifically, that
20:07
show is really impressive from a production standpoint.
20:10
I actually just got a Paramount Plus subscription specifically
20:14
so I could watch this show because I've heard so much about
20:16
it. But I know it also has some
20:18
pretty pointed messaging against renewables.
20:21
So you've you've watched that. What's your reaction to that?
20:25
Well, I've seen the first season and that was enough for me.
20:27
I, I, I didn't go back for Season 2.
20:29
Maybe I'll get around to it. I'm not a fan of it.
20:34
I you know, there's the famous Billy Bob Thornton scene where
20:36
they're out in the wind turbines and he's talking about how much
20:41
oil they need for lubrication and how much cement and steel
20:45
and they don't. And what is it?
20:46
20 year lifespan? They would never pay back the
20:48
carbon footprint. I'm sorry, that's just not true.
20:52
It's just it's factually incorrect.
20:55
And the other thing is also it's like, look, maybe it's maybe
20:58
they did it for dramatic effect. It's oil versus renewables.
21:02
But look, we need it all and it all has different, you know,
21:06
it's like the classic thing when I go to my toolbox, like
21:09
sometimes I need a screwdriver, sometimes I need a hammer.
21:12
Different fuels are good for different things.
21:13
And to, to sort of say 1 is better and one needs the other.
21:18
Look, we 2 can play at that game.
21:20
And I just don't think it's helping anything that kind of
21:22
narrative and putting that kind of message out.
21:24
We like oil and gas. Like, you know, I'm, we're, you
21:28
know, I, I work with a whole bunch of former oil and gas
21:30
people working in solar right now.
21:32
There's nothing but love. Well, I mean, and it's, and
21:36
there's actually a truth to it, right?
21:38
I mean, over 80% of electricity in western ERCOT is renewable,
21:42
right? The Permian Basin literally
21:43
relies on renewable energy to stay competitive.
21:46
And the Republican Party came after the solar and wind
21:49
industry in 2025. The oil and gas industry are the
21:52
ones who went to bat to save clean energy from those
21:56
restrictive rules. And the show pretends renewables
22:00
are just a funny sideshow. You know, How do you square that
22:03
narrative? I, I don't really, and you go
22:07
back to the, what is it 2005 Energy Policy Act, which I think
22:11
is probably one of the most important pieces of energy
22:13
legislation in my lifetime. And guess what?
22:16
Both sides got something they wanted, right?
22:18
We ended the, the export ban, but we got a, a long term
22:22
extension for energy tax credits for renewal.
22:24
Both sides got something wanted, which really set up the energy
22:27
abundance narrative that, that we're living through right now.
22:31
But going back right to the Permian Basin, one of the first
22:33
things I wrote at T1, it's read on on our company's website is,
22:36
is a little case study which we call hey, Permian Basin.
22:39
We got your back and we ran the numbers on an hour by hour
22:42
basis. And you're right, 80 plus
22:44
percent of the electricity out there is, you know, it's
22:47
renewable, it's wind, there's a lot of wind out there and solar
22:50
like. And if you want U.S. oil to be
22:53
globally competitive, you've got to keep your operating prices
22:56
down. And one of the ways to do that
22:57
is inexpensive electricity. So it's like we're more than
23:01
happy to be working out there. We're glad that they they like
23:04
our electricity. And, you know, you know, look,
23:12
we cannot forget the most important lesson that Emery
23:15
Lovin's taught us, right? And they're not that many
23:18
lessons that we should take from Emery Lovin, in my opinion, but
23:21
there's some really important ones.
23:22
And one of the things he said was people don't want barrels of
23:25
oil. They don't want cubic feet of
23:27
gas. They don't want megawatts.
23:29
You know, they want warm, They want a cold beer, not warm beer.
23:32
They want cold beer and warm showers, right?
23:35
That's right. People want what energy can
23:36
provide for them. So like, let's stop just like
23:39
arguing with each other, like for the, for the good of the
23:41
country, for the good of consumers, We really got to stop
23:44
arguing and trying to tear each other down because right now we
23:47
just need a little bit of everything and we need it to
23:50
work together. Absolutely.
23:52
So I think we agree that Land Man needs better production
23:57
consultants from the energy industry.
23:59
They should feel free to reach out to the show if they would
24:02
like our thoughts on that. We are happy to help.
24:06
And an an oil and gas of we, as we've just discussed, has like
24:10
this more than century of cultural storytelling and all of
24:13
this, you know, this big cultural like, you know, brand,
24:18
if you will, what's the clean energy equivalent?
24:20
Like what? What should the clean energy
24:22
industry be doing that it currently isn't?
24:25
This is a topic we come back to time and time again on this
24:27
podcast in order to create that type of cultural relevancy that
24:31
we still continue to miss. Jimmy, that's a great question.
24:35
I mean, we're about to celebrate the 250th anniversary and I'm
24:38
sure there's going to be a lot of like going back and
24:40
celebrating great inventions. Let's talk about the fact that
24:43
solar energy is, is American, right?
24:45
Charles Fritz, back in the 1880s, putting the first
24:48
selenium cells up on top of a rooftop in lower Manhattan.
24:52
I think actually where the current Federal Reserve Bank of
24:54
New York is, right? First time that anyone put out
24:58
solar cells, silicon based solar cells invented at Bell Labs.
25:02
I mean, solar is as American as apple pie.
25:06
But the other thing I think that's really important in terms
25:08
of recapturing the narrative and talking about this, and we
25:11
talked about this a lot, is that what solar gives you is freedom,
25:17
right? And what's more American than
25:18
that? You want to be able to power
25:20
your house. Great, Put some solar panels on
25:22
top, stick some batteries in in your garage and you can get off
25:25
the grid. You are free.
25:26
You're generating your own. You're a pioneer, You're you're
25:29
self-sufficient. That sort of, you know,
25:31
Americans love freedom. And you know, that is a, it's
25:35
solar in particular and batteries too.
25:38
Solar plus storage is really feeding into a very deeply
25:42
American sentiment and value. And I think we need to talk
25:46
about that a lot more than we do right now.
25:48
I love that so much. So SIA or ACP, one of those
25:53
groups, we, I would, I would love to see them do something
25:56
around the 250th anniversary around the legacy of, of
26:01
innovation in this country and American ingenuity in terms of
26:05
energy technology. I think that's brilliant.
26:07
I would love to see that happen. So just just moving a little bit
26:12
along from that. Your book Superpower was about
26:15
Michael Skelly and his massive bet on wind power.
26:19
And now we have Solar kind of figuring out how to earn
26:21
bipartisan support. Meanwhile, Mint Wind has been
26:25
having, I think everyone would agree, a little bit of a
26:28
difficult time with the Trump administration.
26:30
He's so strongly opposes offshore wind.
26:34
If you were running comms in the wind industry right now versus
26:37
solar, what would you tell them about how to meet this moment?
26:44
That's a really tough question. That's a good question because
26:46
you're right, you know, we don't, we used to always talk
26:49
about solar plus wind, wind and solar.
26:52
And now all you do is talk about solar and batteries.
26:54
Wind is sort of being a little bit pushed to the side, even
26:58
though it's a still generates a very good amount of electricity
27:01
in this country. I would sort of just start with
27:04
the fact that wind, there's some really amazing wind resources
27:09
around the world, right? You go to a place like Oman,
27:12
huge, great wind resource. The middle of the country, the
27:14
plains states all the way down into the Panhandle of Texas is
27:18
an amazing wind resource. We need to focus on that and
27:21
maybe move away a little from offshore where it's just very
27:25
controversial and very difficult.
27:27
I mean, look, oil and gas industry has been had to fight
27:30
for years for, for the social license to do offshore drilling.
27:34
Wind's not going to have any easier.
27:38
It just, you know, my sense is like, go where the good wind
27:41
resources are and don't rock the boat.
27:44
Just just kind of keep pushing that.
27:46
Because the other thing I would say is that, you know, we, if I
27:53
were the wind industry, and I've said this for the solar industry
27:56
as well, we want the right to build wind, the exact same
28:02
rights that someone has to drill an oil or gas well.
28:05
So if, if a rancher has the ability to lease out their land
28:08
to do some oil and gas exploration, that's the exact
28:10
same right that we want for, for solar or for wind.
28:14
No different, no different rules, no different permits.
28:18
Because the, the, the you know, natural gas occurs somewhere,
28:22
oil occurs somewhere, wind occurs somewhere and people
28:26
should have the right to pursue energy.
28:28
The good news for solar is that it pretty much occurs
28:30
everywhere. You don't really have, that was
28:32
kind of geographic limitations. Maybe Portland, OR we can rule
28:35
out, but almost everywhere else is solar is good and you can
28:37
generate good electricity. So one thing that's on
28:41
everyone's mind, Russell, right now is that JP Morgan just said
28:45
that we're going to hit $5 a gallon for gasoline at the end
28:48
of April because of the Iran conflict.
28:51
Electricity bills, as you know, has been going up because of
28:54
great upgrades, mostly distribution.
28:56
And we have a unique window right now to make the case for
28:59
clean energy to a mainstream audience.
29:02
Do you agree? And who is actually, like
29:05
targeting that audience? Like who's who's trying to make
29:08
that case? Yeah, I do agree.
29:12
I think, you know, anytime not just prices go up, but the
29:18
supply of energy becomes fragile and becomes uncertain is a good
29:23
time to be talking about the localization, the domestic
29:27
manufacturing of energy. It's this is the time is right
29:29
now. Look, I think I, you know, I
29:33
since I started this job about a year ago, I have been talking
29:38
for the company, talking about solar and I've been talking a
29:41
lot to, you know, the right wing and to Trump align voters
29:46
because, you know, I feel like our story is very compelling.
29:51
I don't talk about carbon like I go weeks without mentioning
29:56
carbon in my job. Honestly, I don't even talk
29:58
about renewable energy. We're just energy.
30:01
We are low cost, scalable, reliable energy.
30:05
And you know, I think people get that and I think that's the
30:09
message we need to put out right now.
30:10
Like we prices are going up or or expected to go up because
30:15
demand from hyper scalers and air conditioning and restoring
30:18
manufacturing are increasing. Great.
30:20
We need a scalable energy resource.
30:22
Boom printing press solar, you know, we needed to be reliable.
30:26
You know, you pair solar with batteries, you've got
30:29
reliability, low cost. I mean, it's no question that
30:32
solar's is the low cost, you know, from an LCOE basis out
30:36
there. So people understand that and,
30:39
and I think, you know, we just, we need to talk to them about
30:42
power, about energy and about what it can do for us and why
30:47
it's important. And, and for right now, talk
30:49
less about carbon, talk less about particulates and, and
30:53
health. And it's just right about.
30:55
It's just about look, look, we need energy.
30:58
Let's figure out how we get it. You're speaking my language,
31:00
Russell. I have been, I have been saying
31:03
that we've discussed it on this podcast.
31:05
We, we still have those benefits whether or not we are talking
31:09
about them. And right now in order to get
31:12
ahead, we just need to adjust our messaging for this political
31:15
moment and our environmental benefits still stand whether or
31:21
not we are leading with those. So I'm right there with you.
31:25
So let's talk a little bit more about your about your new
31:29
company, T1 Energy, which I understand is building something
31:33
pretty ambitious, a fully domestic solar supply chain in
31:37
here in the United States. So can you tell us a little bit
31:40
more about what T1's actually doing?
31:43
Yeah, sure. Happy to look.
31:46
A year ago we set out and we basically we looked at the solar
31:51
landscape manufactured and you kind of had two choices.
31:54
You could get an American made solar panels, but typically they
31:59
were cadmium Telluride, they were less efficient. 98% of the
32:03
world's already moved over to silicon based solar panels.
32:05
That's where all the interesting research and developments.
32:08
But if you wanted a silicon based panel, you you were
32:11
probably going to have to deal with either a Chinese company
32:14
or, or imported panels. And so we said, look, let's
32:16
create a company that is American, is manufacturing in
32:19
the United States, but gives you the good, the good technology,
32:23
you know, the high efficiency top time solar.
32:25
And, and that's what we've set out to build.
32:28
And we started off, we bought a 5 GW factory that had been
32:32
built, but not Commission had started running for like 2 weeks
32:35
when we bought it. Trina Solar built it and we, we
32:38
purchased it from them. So we got modules.
32:42
But you know, let's, let's start at the beginning of the solar
32:45
panel, right? The beginning of the solar panel
32:46
is polysilicon. And we get that from Hemlock.
32:50
We have a contract with Hemlock Semiconductor in Hemlock, MI one
32:54
of the few, I think like 95 to 97% of global polysilicon is
32:59
from China or Chinese companies. We get ours from the United
33:01
States. Corning is now taking that
33:04
polysilicon and making it into wafers, very complicated process
33:08
and slicing those wafers, let it make it into ingots and then
33:11
slice the wafers. That also happens in Michigan.
33:13
We've got a contract with them. The next step is solar cells and
33:17
we're building, like I said, a $400 million facility in
33:20
Rockdale, TX to make top con solar cells, start building it
33:24
in December. So we're about four months in.
33:26
It's pretty exciting what's going on out there.
33:28
We're going to be putting a lot more stuff out on social media.
33:30
And then you take the solar cells and you bring them off to
33:33
Wilmer, TX, just outside of Dallas, slopping between two
33:36
pieces of glass, put some steel frames around them and you've
33:39
got a solar panel. And so, you know we are building
33:43
all of that. And when our solar cell fab is
33:45
done, we will have a fully integrated domestic supply
33:48
chain. You know, we're getting steel
33:50
panels that are made in America, still looking for junction
33:54
boxes. And if anyone out there knows of
33:57
a good domestic glass manufacturer, you know, give us
34:00
a call. We're we're working on it, you
34:02
know, and we're, we're actually working with companies that want
34:04
to build that. And, and we're sort of stepping
34:07
up and, and committing to a certain amount of off take to,
34:09
to so they can get financing. But yeah, I mean that's what
34:12
we're putting together. We did 2.8 gigawatts last year
34:17
and our five GW factory mostly just because we were the
34:20
beginning of the year. We're just starting up.
34:21
We we take name play capacity. So it's a fun and exciting place
34:25
to be and we're really creating something that has not existed
34:30
ever before, which is a large scale multi GW American advanced
34:36
silicon solar manufacturing business.
34:39
So I, I guess I've got a couple of questions for you, Russell.
34:42
I think let me start with the first.
34:44
Which is it? I think that one of the things
34:46
that Elon Musk did when he started Tesla was he didn't
34:50
manufacture the EV in Mexico. He manufactured in California.
34:55
It does feel like that actually, you know, caused folks to
35:00
really, you know, love the electric vehicle a little bit
35:03
more because it was made in America.
35:07
I'm curious whether you think that this whole American story
35:11
versus, you know, like the old NAFTA story or the old, you
35:16
know, you know, sort of like North American story really is a
35:20
different story. Yeah, I do.
35:24
I actually really do think so. You know, like we take, we take
35:28
people on tours, the factory politicians, you know, and when
35:32
they're there and they're looking at them and they see not
35:35
just 1200 workers, but, you know, advanced robotics and AI
35:38
being utilized to figure out what cells might not be working,
35:42
We need to swap them out. They get excited.
35:44
I think people are really, really want more domestic
35:49
manufacturing, really to rebuild a manufacturing base in the
35:51
United States and they get excited.
35:53
We had the state director for Senator Ted Cruz visit us the
35:56
other day, and he just put up a couple days ago and LinkedIn,
35:59
how exciting it was to see it. You know, like we're like,
36:02
people are getting excited. They're not the people you
36:04
normally would expect. And we we love that.
36:07
So yeah, I do think building it in Willmar, Texas and not Laos
36:12
makes a difference. So the other angle that I hear
36:15
from people though, is that, look, it's one thing to build
36:19
batteries here because there's like 5 more breakthrough
36:21
technologies that we might get in batteries.
36:23
But solar panels like we're already sort of, you know, went
36:26
from 14% efficiency to 23% efficiency.
36:29
You know, like we're never going to beat the Chinese on cost, you
36:32
know, Like, what do you say to that?
36:34
Like when people you know give you that argument.
36:37
Yeah, well, I mean, look, if we had a level playing field and we
36:41
didn't have to face dumping, you know, overcapacity, polysilicon,
36:45
yeah, we probably would be able to compete with them.
36:49
Our factory doesn't know where it is.
36:51
You know they the ABV robotic arms that are moving glass
36:54
around and putting it and then putting the cells onto the glass
36:57
doesn't know if it's in Wilmer TX or.
37:00
Are you saying that you don't have AGI robots?
37:03
Is that what you're saying it hasn't reached general
37:07
intelligence yet? No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
37:09
We're working on. That's the next upgrade except
37:12
credit sugar maybe in a couple months.
37:13
No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
37:16
You know, look, the Chinese are have done a great job iterating
37:22
and figuring out how to do manufacturing of solar panels at
37:25
a low cost. But if there's a level playing
37:27
field and, you know, anti dumping and countervailing duty
37:31
tariffs are applied universally, we feel we can compete.
37:37
This is not, you know, and you know, there's a lot of
37:41
technology still coming out. What kind of tandem panels are
37:43
we going to have the HJTS coming?
37:46
You know, Prof Skype, like we're not done innovating yet.
37:50
And you know, we're still a new company, But I, I, I have no
37:55
doubt that, you know, we're going to start getting into more
37:58
R&D and trying to understand what's coming next.
38:01
Like right now we're trying to figure out supply chain.
38:02
We're trying to figure out manufacturing.
38:05
We're getting that down. But the big lesson we've learned
38:08
is that, you know, with the right skilled workforce and,
38:11
and, and the robots and AI like, we feel we can compete with
38:15
anyone around the world. And then, you know, when you
38:18
think about the Inflation Reduction Act, right?
38:20
And really I think what that has set off, right?
38:22
Because Trump got elected in 2016 basically saying, you know,
38:26
we need to manufacture stuff here.
38:28
Obviously didn't pass any legislation to do that, but
38:30
fine. And then you've got the
38:32
Inflation Reduction Act and you've got like some 45 X
38:35
credits, right, which you guys are using that, you know, are
38:38
paid on every Watt of of solar that you produce.
38:42
And then you've got, you know, some domestic content adders,
38:46
right, so that some of the people who are installing solar
38:48
have an incentive to use domestically produced materials,
38:53
right? You know, there's a construct
38:55
there, right? And then some of that construct
38:56
was preserved by the O triple BA, right, When the Trump
39:00
administration, you know, passed something there.
39:02
I'm curious like, you know, from a policy standpoint, it does
39:06
feel like we need industrial strategy though to manufacture
39:11
stuff in this country until we get, you know, good at it again
39:15
and you know, maybe we don't need it anymore.
39:18
What we, what we need to avoid is what actually happened with
39:21
the wind industry in the 2000s where the policy was such a stop
39:25
and start. You know, you'd have your
39:27
production tax credits for two years and then they'd go away.
39:30
But though they'd be retroactively applied for
39:32
another year and then they'd go away.
39:34
That really made it difficult to finance any kind of
39:37
manufacturing, any kind of industrial base.
39:39
And I agree with you. The IRA was certainly moving
39:44
towards a reindustrialization. And what happened in the OBBBA
39:48
was that the 45X tax credits, the manufacturing tax credits
39:51
remain. There is a bipartisan agreement
39:53
that we want more of an industrial base.
39:55
Now, you can call that, you know, an industrial strategy,
39:58
but what we need is just consistency.
40:01
Republicans and Democrats have both said that they support more
40:04
industrial development in the United States and more renewable
40:07
energy being built here. We support that at T1.
40:11
The one, you know, call it a policy, call it a strategy,
40:14
whatever you want. I just, we just need a few years
40:17
of consistent policy and you've already starting to see large
40:22
amounts of modules, solar modules, batteries being made
40:25
here in the United States and we're starting to move up and
40:27
down the, the chain solar cells. You know, we're, we're going to
40:31
be able to do it. What we just don't want is the
40:34
the herky jerky policy that we've seen in the past.
40:38
No, I think that's right. But the reason I bring it up is
40:40
because I think what happened after the 1973 oil embargo was
40:44
people said OPEC had too much power.
40:46
We need to diversify, you know, like where we're getting our oil
40:49
from. We need to like, you know,
40:51
reduce their power, right? So like I don't like, I'm not
40:55
anti Chinese. I think that like when you have
40:57
a very essential technology, which solar panels clearly are
41:01
today. So we're batteries, so is wind,
41:03
so is electric vehicles. We need to diversify the supply
41:06
chain, right? In the same way that we said
41:08
Saudi Arabia is not evil like in the OPEC piece, we just said we
41:12
need to have them have less power, right?
41:15
And so part of what I'm trying to understand is, are we
41:20
creating a model that we want everyone around the world to
41:24
replicate, right? Because we want this
41:26
diversification, right? Do we want Europe to do stuff
41:29
like this? Do we want Brazil to do stuff
41:31
like this, like India, South Africa, right?
41:33
Because clearly the Chinese did some version of industrial
41:36
strategy. They didn't just iterate.
41:39
They also got 1% interest loans and a lot of losses and all this
41:43
other stuff, right, For 20 years, right?
41:45
That's how they got here. Yeah.
41:47
Well, I mean, the way I think about it is that if you look at,
41:50
like I spelled out before, the four main steps of making a
41:53
solar panel, right, the polysilicon wafer cells and
41:56
modules, globally speaking, each of those steps is like 90 to 95%
42:01
controlled by either in China or by Chinese companies.
42:05
If we had 95% of global oil coming out of Saudi Arabia, I
42:09
think people might say we need to diversify.
42:11
So that's, that's really the only, that's the argument we're
42:13
making right now in the United States.
42:15
Plus we're bringing back jobs, you know, we're creating
42:16
economic growth. So I, I think we're very much in
42:20
alignment. We, we, there's nothing wrong
42:22
with, with China and what China's done manufacturing, they
42:26
have done an incredible job. They're like what, 1 terawatt of
42:29
installed solar? Capacity.
42:30
That's amazing. And yeah.
42:31
And they're not doing it for carbon reasons, right?
42:33
They're doing it because they're creating an electrostate and
42:35
they're supporting this industry and they're supporting economic
42:38
growth. I, I think that's, you know,
42:41
good on them. We need to be doing the same,
42:43
right? We have to be careful.
42:45
You know, in the course of my career from like when I started
42:49
covering energy in 2002 on we gained energy independence more
42:53
or less in the United States, effective energy independence.
42:56
But we're at a point right now where as solar and storage are
42:59
so dominant, 80% plus of installed capacity in the last
43:03
two years from these two technologies, we're running the
43:06
risk of becoming going back to energy dependence on one
43:10
country. And, and we just need to be
43:11
careful of that. And, you know, and, and like I
43:15
said, solar's and American technology, I'm, I met Charles
43:18
Goodenough, the inventor of the lithium ion batteries,
43:22
University of Texas before he passed away a couple years ago.
43:24
These are these are technologies that have made the United States
43:27
and, you know, like you remember, I certainly remember
43:31
Alan Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chair, getting
43:33
up before Congress and saying we're running out of natural
43:35
gas. We've got to import lots of
43:37
natural gas. That was the conventional
43:39
wisdom. Well, guess what?
43:40
Now we're the world's number one exporter of natural gas.
43:43
We've got more natural gas then we know what to do with.
43:45
Like, why can't that also be true for solar?
43:48
What? Why can't we be developing the
43:50
next version? Yeah.
43:52
That gets us to 26 or 27% efficiency in solar panels.
43:56
We certainly can. And you know, to get your other
43:58
question, if Brazil sees this and wants to copy it in other
44:02
countries, I, I don't think there's anything necessarily
44:05
wrong with that. You know, one of the big, you
44:07
know, when I just came back from Sierra week couple weeks ago in
44:10
Houston, and one of the things I was really struck with was that
44:14
seer week is a celebration of the global energy supply chains,
44:18
right? The the the way oil and gas move
44:20
around the world, Man, that's felt like it is much more afraid
44:24
than it has been. Then I can remember there's just
44:27
a fraying of global supply chains.
44:28
I'm not saying they're going to end, but but you know, given
44:31
what's going on in Iran, given Straits of Hormuz, it just feels
44:34
very frayed right now. And I think we're going to see a
44:38
lot of interest and movement towards localization.
44:41
I know you guys have been talking about this with the new
44:43
Jewel order a lot. I mean, I from my perch, I see
44:46
that happening and I think it's going to continue to happen.
44:50
All right. So I frankly think your last
44:52
answer answered most of my question, but like, but just the
44:56
final question is summarize what you just said, right, in terms
45:00
of like what the status is of energy in the United States, not
45:04
what we want it to be in the future, but what it is right
45:07
now. Yeah.
45:08
I think energy in the United States is in great shape.
45:10
You know, we're we, we're huge amounts of oil production, huge
45:15
amounts of gas production. We've got growing battery and
45:18
solar, we've got R&D coming down the Pike in the next few years
45:23
with geothermal and small module reactors.
45:26
We've got lots of great things going on with energy right now,
45:30
but production, all that's production we're, we're finding
45:34
incredible. You know, we're finding new ways
45:35
to produce lots of energy, but production is not everything.
45:38
And we're still in some ways living in a 20th century world
45:41
with transmission, transmission rules, utility rules.
45:45
And, you know, we need to update that and sort of come into a
45:48
more of a 21st century abundance mindset and change a lot of
45:53
rules around energy. And if we do that, I think we're
45:55
going to be in great shape for for the foreseeable future,
45:58
which in the engine world is about 5 to 10 years.
46:01
After that I don't know. Well, with that, Russell, it was
46:06
such a pleasure to have you on. Obviously, your grasp of these
46:11
technologies and where energy has been, where it's going in
46:15
the future and all the players is really unmatched.
46:18
And so it's, it's, it's really exciting, frankly, to have you
46:22
in the solar industry as a storyteller.
46:23
So thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me,
46:27
it was a blast. I I really enjoyed it.
46:35
My goodness, Jamie, like I forgot about how awesome Russell
46:41
Gold really is. Like he, I've, I've we must have
46:45
covered like 18 different angles to this like sort of
46:50
conversation. It was.
46:52
It was far reaching. It really was.
46:54
And I and I told him I think after we had already, we had
46:57
stopped recording for the interview, but I said to him, I,
47:00
I wish my clients were as well media trained as he was because
47:03
he just, he was so succinct in his answers and was such a clear
47:07
communicator. And I mean, I loved his
47:10
explanation of solar manufacturing and I could really
47:13
see each, you know, he was talking about Michigan and Texas
47:18
and all the various locations and all the elements that are
47:21
manufactured in the various places.
47:23
And I just thought it was he's, he's a masterful storyteller.
47:26
I could really see it in my head.
47:28
And so I hope that our listeners are left with a sense of
47:32
hopefulness about the state of of energy manufacturing in this
47:37
country and what we can do and the work that's happening even
47:41
despite the headwinds that we're facing on the federal level
47:43
right now. Well, I mean, I do think it's
47:46
going to require his masterful storytelling.
47:48
My sense is, is that some of the solar installers are going to
47:52
skip the domestic content adder and actually just buy cheaper
47:57
solar panels from China and like not try to even meet the
48:01
domestic content requirements, which I think is one of the big
48:04
challenges I see. Like, I thought that when you
48:07
and I served in the Biden administration, we didn't get a
48:11
universal understanding from all of the solar panel buyers that
48:16
this was critical to their social license, that they needed
48:20
to buy domestically to be able to get the right to keep
48:23
installing solar in these different counties that just
48:27
didn't want to see Chinese equipment in their county.
48:31
I think it's such a great point Jigger.
48:32
And I really do wonder like particularly later this year,
48:36
you know, you and I always go to the RE Plus show and it really
48:40
serves as kind of a moment of like a gut shock with the
48:44
broader industry. And there are a lot of solar
48:45
installers there in particular to to kind of get our finger on
48:49
the pulse of what people are thinking and what's driving
48:53
them, what risks they're seeing. And so I wonder later this year,
48:57
when we touch base with them, if any of that approach will have
49:02
shifted right? Like particularly now after
49:05
we're seeing the, the conflict in Iran and the incredible
49:10
opposition to particularly offshore wind, but also to solar
49:15
by the, the, the Trump administration, if we're going
49:18
to see any shift in their strategy.
49:19
Because I totally agree with you.
49:21
I mean, I have bought 2 solar arrays and have twice purchased
49:27
American made solar panels. It's really important to me
49:29
personally and I think that a lot of Americans share those
49:33
values. So I I know you talk to a lot of
49:36
folks. So you know, given that it's
49:38
still a few months before we get that big gut check at RE Plus,
49:41
what kind of are you hearing percolating?
49:44
Well, this is the thing I keep explaining to people is that a
49:47
lot of times people talk to me about spreadsheets and they're
49:52
like, well, but if I do this and I like calculate this and I get
49:55
this adder and I do this and I do that, then like I can get a
49:59
higher internal rate of return. And I was like, this is not
50:03
about a higher internal rate of return, but it's like 20% of all
50:06
the counties in the United States now that have banned
50:09
people putting in solar in their county.
50:11
It's a huge number, right? Like, I just think that people
50:15
don't understand that if we're going to meet this moment of AI
50:19
load growth, if we're going to meet this moment of, of all of
50:23
the electricity load growth that we're seeing right now, we're
50:26
going to need as much solar power, wind power, battery
50:29
storage, other stuff that we can deploy at scale.
50:33
And that means finding a balance, right?
50:36
So that you get permission to do all that stuff.
50:39
Absolutely. And I also think right now, and
50:42
this is something that Russell touched upon, the importance of
50:44
that localization. And you know, if that if someone
50:49
in Texas has a job because of those, the solar array that's
50:53
going in down the block from you, I do think that that's
50:55
powerful. And in terms of storytelling, I
50:58
hope that we get some videography out of these, out of
51:02
these facilities so that we can make this more real for people.
51:06
And, you know, I hope that it breaks through culturally in
51:08
some way. You know, we talked about about
51:11
land man and the fact that they've kind of ridiculed solar
51:14
or diminished it and renewable energy in general in terms of
51:18
its role in the broader energy economy.
51:20
And so, you know, I'm just, I hope that we can breakthrough
51:24
here in a more significant way and make these projects real for
51:28
people so that they understand that this work can and is being
51:32
done in the United States of America.
51:35
Totally. I'm all I'm all in.
51:37
So this is not boring, Jamie. It's dependable.
51:43
I like that. Thank you for that Rebrands
51:45
Jigger. Well, with that, thanks
51:49
everybody for listening. As usual, you can find this
51:52
podcast wherever you listen to podcasts like Apple Music or on
51:58
Spotify. We're also on YouTube.
52:01
We love when you subscribe. So as my son says, smash the
52:05
subscribe button and we're super excited about our sponsors.
52:09
S2G investments really couldn't do this without them.