Latest / Follow the Leighder / Leaving the New Apostolic Reformation | Adam James (@epistemiccrisis)
Transcript
- Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson. And y'all, I went down to Georgia and I brought back a friend. me today in the studio is Adam James, welcome. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Hello there, how are you? Leigh/@followtheleighder: I'm good, folks. Adam James is a physical therapist. got it. actually has his doctorate in physical therapy. So you can technically call him Dr. Adam James. He's out of Augusta, Georgia. He's a medical comp. He provides medical commentary, Christian nationalist commentary. He does ex evangelical content creation online and also a little bit of neurodivergence content as well. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I found Adam while scrolling as we do and went down the rabbit hole of his profile and I was like, I gotta introduce him to you guys. So, Adam, tell us a little bit about your background and why you have taken to online content creation for your message. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: So the first time that I got into content creation seriously was with my wife because she is the late diagnosed of level one autistic and inattentive ADHD person. We had no idea she was neurodivergent when we first met. And we had been married for basically a decade when we found out that she was, you when she got diagnosed, we accidentally had a video that we posted. We were just joking about something together. It got it's up to 33 million views now. So we randomly got thrown into content creation that way. And then a couple of years later, I started feeling because I am a, ⁓ I'm an escapee of ⁓ fundamentalist evangelicals, Pentecostal charismatic type church cult groups. And I escaped that ⁓ roughly a decade ago. And I've been untangling and deconstructing all that ever since then. And especially with, you know, Trump being reelected in 24, I felt a strong need to start speaking out about how, you know, helping people understand how we got here because I used to be MAGA. I used to be a right wing authoritarian, like all the people that support Trump. So I want, I'm trying to help people understand how we got here and then how we get out of it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that's exactly, it is so needed, your voice. Can you talk about, you said that you were an escapee, and I know we'll get to the getting out, but when you say you're a pro-MAGA, you're an escapee of this movement, what did a church service look like for you? how, kind of just talk us through what a church service or a Bible study may have looked like for someone who is very much in this movement. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Mm-hmm. Right. So for one of the most probably the crown jewel church of the movement I stage is called Bethel Church in Reading, California. ⁓ Bethel is internationally famous because of their music. ⁓ Before that, they were still internationally influential and famous because of ⁓ the senior pastor there, Bill Johnson, has ⁓ built a following that's absolutely massive. But if you were to pull up Bethel Church's ⁓ Sunday morning service on their livestream, that's what you would see me doing at the church that I helped start in 2013. The church is still going, by the way. ⁓ Long protracted times of worship. I was the worship leader. I'm a musician, songwriter, producer, and all that. This is my home studio I'm sitting in. ⁓ So very expressive worship, know, Pentecostal charismatic, know, lifting of the hands, there'd be dancing, clapping, shouting, people running laps around the room if you like, you know, it was very, very charismatic. And along with that came all the, you know, spiritual warfare, prophecy, dream interpretation, laying on of hands, all that fun stuff. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, what was the kind of messages or sermons you might've heard? Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: ⁓ so. Like there are kind of three core tenets for the NAR. ⁓ Number one is that apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church and that God is restoring them to the church because they've been lost, quote unquote. So the senior pastor that I helped start the church with, he believes himself to be an apostle. He'll never say it publicly, but he believes himself to be that. ⁓ And second would be spiritual warfare. where everything good that happens is because of God and everything bad that happens is because of the devil. So there's never just stuff happens. Sometimes you have bad luck. Everything bad that happens is because of the devil, including criticizing the leadership or the movement itself. You are automatically labeled as trafficking with the demonic because they have the concept of spiritual warfare. And number three would be the seven mountain mandate. which is where, this was made famous by Lance Wallnau, ⁓ where society is divided into seven spheres or mountains of influence, quote unquote, and we are called by God to ascend to the pinnacle or the peak of all of those mountains as Christians in order to bring God's kingdom ⁓ on earth as it is in heaven, so to speak. Leigh/@followtheleighder: that blends in really nicely with Rush Dooney's theology of Christian dominionism. And ⁓ that's what I'm trying to help folks understand. If this is a multi-front, there's quite a number of Christian denominations that have their own language for what's going on right now. ⁓ You talk about the new Aposolic movement. ⁓ Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yes. That's right. Yeah. Right. So Lance Wallnau grabbed this teaching. It first came from Bill Bright. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Can you tell me within that, did Lance Wall and the Seven Mountain Mandate come out of that? Did it guide it? What is that relationship? Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: and Lauren Cunningham, Bill Bright founded Campus Crusade for Christ, which if you've been to college anywhere in the United States, you've run up against ⁓ Campus Crusade folks trying to covertly recruit you and kidnap you to their summer beach project or whatever. ⁓ Bill, see, and Lauren Cunningham founded YWAM, Youth with a Mission, which is an international missions organization. These two guys had a meeting years ago. where they both felt like they God had told them the exact same thing separately, that society can be divided into seven mountains or spheres. And that's where this whole thing started. Lance Wallnau co-opted it. ⁓ Lance Wallnau was legitimized by ⁓ another leader in the, well, really the founding father of the NAR, whose name is C. Peter Wagner. Peter Wagner was a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary in Southern California, which is where it was started by one of the old school Pentecostal folks that came, really was downstream from Azusa Street. And Wagner literally coined the term, the New Apostolic Reformation. That is his language. He wrote many, many books and he put all of his influence and effort into codifying what the NAR is and what they should be doing as a movement. So, Walnall was beginning to teach the Seven Mountains. When he got connected to Wagner, it turbocharged it because Wagner gave Wallnau access to all the people that he had influence with. And for some reason, it's funny to think of now, but Wagner was considered like a quote unquote scholar because he was a seminary faculty member. Wagner's PhD was in sociology. He's not a theologian. ⁓ He's like ordained as a minister, but honestly, his, the idea that he is considered a scholar is laughable. He's never actually gone through any sort of academic rigor in the world of theology or ⁓ ministry or ⁓ apologetics or critical biblical scholarship. He's a sociologist. He was a missionary for a time. Then he came back to the States and got his PhD. He's fascinated with how movements grow and how you build them. That's why he was able to do what he did with the seven, with the NAR and by extension, the seven mountains. So that's, that's how Walnow got his start. And of course, with the rise of Trump, Walnow was at Trump Tower on the invitation of Paula White King when Trump declared candidacy for the 16 election, but no evangelical would touch him with a 10 foot pole. So Paula White, who's been friends with Trump since 2005, ⁓ She gathered all the people that she knew who were not mainline evangelicals. They were people like Lance Wallnau, Pentecostal, charismatic, prophetic people, you crazy people on the fringe. ⁓ So Wallnau was there with Trump when they had a meeting and Paula White Cane convinced all of them to throw their support behind Trump's. And then all of a sudden, Wallnau has this prophetic word about Donald Trump being a type of King Cyrus. And he writes this ridiculous book. called God's Chaos Candidate. And he successfully convinced millions of Christians that Trump is not a godly man, but he is God's man. He literally got them to give over their sense of right and wrong to political power. And that's part of the reason that then one by one, you sort of see in the Domino's fall of all these mainline evangelicals, John MacArthur, for God's sake, he hated Trump. Next thing you know, John McArthur's pro-Trump. How did they do that? It was a wave of, ⁓ it was a war of attrition. They were falling one by one because Paula White came instigated it to begin with. The next thing you know, Jerry Falwell Jr. is endorsing Trump instead of Ted Cruz. He did not return Ted Cruz's phone call saying, are you going to endorse Senator Cruz for the 16 election? He didn't call him back because he already, he'd already decided to endorse Trump. So anyway, all that to say. That's where Wallnau comes from. And Wallnau has exploded in internet fame among MAGA with the Flashpoint television program that they have, which is one of the vilest, most ridiculous pieces of propaganda that the modern world has ever seen. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And thank you so much for connecting how it got brought into Trump during his first term, because I remember that he appealed to David Duke, and we remembered how a— Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: how that whole term, the campaign, and then he wins, he's now in office, it was so turbulent. There was so much in and out, staff being fired, it just seemed like a joke, and now it is not a joke. It is not a joke at all. And ⁓ it wasn't funny then, and it's absolutely not funny now. The thing you talk about with Lance Wall, Bill Bright, ⁓ Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: looking at Paul the White, in churches are they also talking about politics from the pulpit? Is that happening in Sunday school or in how, how are we, because I've heard this, this weaving and I know you said that they gave over their sense of right and wrong, but then they also just, they embraced them. Can you talk about how, Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yes. ⁓ well, they handled the Bible like children to begin with. They were already vulnerable to the whims of an authoritarian dictator because that is how their churches are set up anyway. The locus of control. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and why, lean into that a little bit more like biblically, they can justify it. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: for people who are deeply involved in church does not rest with individuals. It rests with the pastor. They give over the, you know, if you look at, for example, the bite model of authoritarian control from Dr. Stephen Hassett, he's one of the world's foremost cult experts. Any, the bite is an acronym for behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions. Any group or person that is attempting to control any of those four, is exerting authoritarian control. right. So in in in evangelical churches, they control your behavior. They control the information. They control your thoughts. They control your emotions. It's already set up for an authoritarian who is objectively shameless to come in and co-opt all of you as a voting bloc. So Trump did not. ⁓ Trump appeals to their fantasy that they are being persecuted. And the truth is that this is such a wild thing that I say nowadays, but like I am, you know, just me, for example, I am a straight white male raised in church in the deep south. I get my cake and can eat it too all the time. I move easily in society without a problem because of my privilege. Right. But yet these people. I saw a standard comedian recently, this is one of the funniest jokes I've ever heard. It was a black comedian who said, white people have no natural predators. That's why you guys make up stuff like Game of Thrones. You're like, save us, Khaleesi. You have no natural predators. You got to make up a problem. And so now they fully believe that they are being persecuted. Trump comes up with the anti-Christian bias task force. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: And I'm over here like, you own the Senate, the House of Representatives, and the White House, and the Supreme Court, my dude. Nobody is coming for you. You run this. You're in charge. But he has appealed to this lie that Christianity's in danger, or whatever. It's laughable. Even American evangelicalism is quite possibly the best funded and most powerful political movement in the history of the world. But they all internally believe we're under attack. So, yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and it's a great way because they believe we're under attack. So now we have to go to Iran and launch Armageddon. And tell me how it goes from we're being persecuted to full blown total war. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: ⁓ my god. Right, so. They don't support Trump as an elected official. They support him as a messiah. They support him as a luminary. And that's why many of the MAGA people will have, they'll use this language like, no, no, just trust Trump. He has a plan. They fully believe this stuff. They think that he has forethought. He's never thought of another person in his entire life. And they, again, They, of course, we're saying everybody appeal to future of dispensational eschatology, the left behind eschatology, where there's a great tribulation and there's a rapture and there's an antichrist and a beast and a false prophet. And they none of these evangelicals know that the idea of the rapture is only 200 years old. It doesn't exist in church history before that. It was literally made up by John Nelson Darby, who founded the Plymouth Brethren denomination in the UK. And he came up with the rapture theology based on the ramblings of a girl that was on her sickbed. And she claimed it was prophetic that God was speaking to her. because Darby was a convincing orator, He was able to convince all of his followings. There's a Plymouth Brethren Church 10 minutes from me right now. Like they're still around. And one of Darby's proteges was a man named Cyrus Schofield, who the world will know as C.I. Schofield, who created the world famous Schofield's Chained Reference Study Bible. The first of its kind. When it came out, it was the first of its kind. Every single seminary student had that thing on their shelf. and even still do. What kind of eschatology do you think is in the footnotes of Schofield's study Bible? Future Thysbosationalism, everything that's in the Left Behind book series. So that proliferated across the world. And it's just an indictment that evangelicals, again, they handle the Bible like children. They negotiate, as Dan McClellan would famously say, they negotiate the Bible to make it say what they need it to say. to satisfy their rhetorical goals to affirm their power structure and their identity politics. Because there are actually four major views of eschatology, not one. There have been tons of, if you ask the first century Christian about the rapture, they have no idea what you were talking about. And so again, they negotiate this sacred text to fulfill a goal that they already have, which is usually racist, xenophobic, ⁓ oppressive and all the other terrible things that gave us World War II. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and talk about a little, ⁓ how does that play into ⁓ who are these people's enemies? guess is the best question because we're in Iran. But ⁓ is it how are they also aligning with Israel? Can you talk about that? Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Hmm. Yes, so the Israel alignment is all to do with again future dispensation with the top They want the Jews as a whole to be regathered physically to Israel Because that is part of that eschatology Now what they don't say is by the way We want all the Jews to come back to Israel so that more than half of them can be slaughtered in Armageddon If you follow it to a T, that's what they really want. But they never say that. Now, on the other side of the coin, you know, the other side of the world, you have Benjamin Netanyahu, who is more than happy. By the way, Netanyahu can't win an election. Their system is set up so that he can't be ⁓ displaced. That's the only reason we know his name anymore. Kind of like Trump. So, ⁓ so Netanyahu knows. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, yeah, actually. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: There are rabid Zionist Christians all over the United States. That's what he's leveraging. His agenda is to exterminate all other people in the Arab world who are not Jewish. That's why he's doing what he's doing in Gaza. And will continue to do so. You know, they talk about, this was a joint venture between Israel and the United States. But no. It's babynet now you're telling Trump you're going to attack Iran because I know what's in those files. So that's where comes. You have the Christians United for Israel founded by John Hagee. John Hagee has been one of the most, I mean, insatiable Zionist people. He preaches more, spends more of his bandwidth and energy on Israel than he does on Jesus of Nazareth. It's really shocking, you know, but the one of the associate pastors at the church I grew up at, he would go to Christians United for Israel events by himself. I mean, regular basis. So, I mean, thousands of church leaders across the nation have been involved with CUFI for years, and they cultivated this commitment to, you know, this toddler level understanding of the Bible. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, and it's so ⁓ militant, it's so dominionist. It's how, so for someone like you, you talk about how you walked away from this, A, cannot imagine how hard and lonely that was. ⁓ My hat's off to you for your own spiritual resilience. And then, but also, can you kind of talk about what was your wake-up moment? Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. Yeah. So, found out the rapture is made up. I found out that the idea of the rapture is only roughly 200 years old. And right alongside that, found out what hermeneutics is. And hermeneutics are how, you know, the study of how you interpret a scripture, like the lens that you look at the scripture through. And all of a sudden I'm finding out there are so many passages of scripture that we talk about that the hermeneutic we've been using, first of all, is not consistent. We don't use the same hermeneutic from Genesis to Revelation. But you can't do that because it's not intellectually consistent, right? You can't interpret a scripture. You can't be like, oh, the Book of Revelation is literal. And then the pastoral epistles from Paul, they're symbolic. What are you doing? That doesn't even make any sense. So, I learned what hermeneutics is. And I learned that, like I mentioned before, there are actually four major views of eschatology across the history of the church. There are people who believe the historical, the historicist view of the Book of Revelation is that it is a narrative that we are actually, it's actually unfolding over time. Like it's a. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right, right, right. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: It's a description of actual events. Then there's other people who are like, it's all symbolic. None of that is real. It's all meant to be apocalyptic imagery, not literal, right? So when I find this out, I'm like, okay, I am a pastor. I have helped start a church. And I didn't know any of this. And the pastor that I helped start this church with, he never said a word. But he knew this was out here. And We had ⁓ breakfast one morning and I was really, you know, again, you got this sheer amount of internal turmoil and energy you have to expend to deal, to tamp down your cognitive dissonance, to participate in ministry. It's just, it'll make you start drinking if you don't already. And we're having breakfast and I'm kind of explaining what I'm learning to him, but I'm afraid to, you Leigh/@followtheleighder: It will, yeah. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: go all in with it because I don't, I'm not sure what he's gonna say. I've never discussed these things with him. And he starts to defend the dispensationalist view of the Bible. And I'm over here, I already fully know that that's BS. And he starts to defend it to me. And I cut him off and I said, I think I'm done. I think I'm done. And, you know, he tries to, you know, convince me not to leave the church and blah, blah. And at that moment, I knew that was my tipping point. And I called my wife as soon as I got in the car and I said, I think I'm leaving the church. I think I'm done. And she's seen it coming for a long time. Again, my wife is neurodivergent and she did not grow up in church. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: So when I am going through all of this awful, you know, tearing my own identity down to the studs, she was right there with me. She wasn't stuck, you know, in any of that stuff. So that was the first, that was my tipping point per se, but it has taken a decade to deprogram. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ And the thing that I go back to with conservative evangelicals is how well you know the Bible. And it's because of that. And yeah, you're talking about, because you've been reading the Bible, you're doing what you were supposed to do. And then you start forming questions about the sermons, about the direction it's heading. And... ⁓ Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that's kind of what makes it more interesting because for on the progressive side, there's almost a joke for the progressive churches ⁓ is that we spend so much time on the social justice or on quote, red letter Jesus that we can't speak to a lot of the rest of the texts that other folks have been focusing on. Furthermore, militant. So it's like a funny like like almost like colliding in the middle of both of us explaining like what's going on right now. Well, here's why. Like those progressive churches Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: weren't going down rabbit holes and having the same sermons on scripture because that's not what they've emphasized and so because you haven't been exposed to that folks like you can come on and shed light. One of the most profound statements things I read I have a book behind me it's called the psychology of Christian nationalism by Pamela Cooper White and she talks about the greatest allies are gonna be folks just like you who woke up and then started working with others to be like hey if you're also feeling this way you're not crazy actually Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: here's why. Because you've lived it and it's I don't know if this is a great example this is the books example was it's it's almost like someone recovering from alcoholism you can't have someone who's never had that struggle tell them why they should get sober they don't understand they don't get it. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that's going to be, there's also ways like, there's nothing that a progressive, again, I'm putting these all in quotes because what do those mean? But there's nothing that a progressive person can do to change your mind. You had to come because of the rapture. Like that there's nothing anyone could have said or done to you up until then. Maybe you talk about your wife playing that role, but it's... There's so many plot holes that it takes the person eventually to hit that pot hole hard enough to be like, is the rota mon actually safe? ⁓ And so. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. What a great analogy. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I'm trying to piece it together because like it's so what you're doing. You're humanizing it. I creators like you that's that's why it's so important is like There is hope for people waking up stop riding them all off as a loss like there's all sorts of rhetoric and narratives going on right now And I'm like, it's no actually there's a lot of people who can speak to this they've been here ⁓ and they're Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: And I have to mention, I have to mention there's a girl going viral right now on TikTok whose name is Carter Brown. And she is, she's left MAGA. She's a triple Trumper. And she's making videos about her process. ⁓ But it is very messy because she just started. And. I watch her videos and I'm like, it just, it gets me so deep. Cause I'm like, I, on one hand, I want you to talk about these things. I want you to be able to have people to talk to. But on the other hand, I can't for the sake of your mental health, I don't want you to make another video for a decade because what she's doing is psychologically precarious. People like that's the peak. There's just as many videos, like her comments are full of people who were mad as a snake at her and for good reason. But at the same time, she is going to lose everything. That's what, and it's worth it. But you might spend a little time with some clinical depression and anxiety. You're going to need the help of a mental health care professional because you're tearing yourself down to the concrete foundation. There's not going to be anything left. And then you're going to have to rebuild it. ⁓ also, you're married with children. You still got to come through every day for the people who depend on you. So just all that to say, yeah, that hits me so deep. The way you're describing like humanizing it. These are are human being there. They're they're waking up. It's like being unplugged from the matrix to use an old allegory. You literally were asleep. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it's not a fault. It's like there you have to step back on the systems and the way it's just so, it's just so much deeper than like, just some fringe people decided to take over the government. It's like, no, there's actually a lot of systems here. There's cuts to educate. There's approaches to education, media. ⁓ Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. But. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah. Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: now with a misinformation online or just even if it's not quote misinformation you're only getting fed one side of the story and the again that's the kind of call and i i hope you get a chance to read that book psychology of christian nationalism by pamela cooper white because she goes into the recruiting the data targeting online like it is yes your your quote are victims they're waking up but it's not because any of these people were like they're wrong flawed deserved it in any way like it's like we're like the people that are waking up and leaving I'm like you I understand you want to be angry because of what happened but these people are also victims yes yeah your anger is right is valid Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yes, and you should be. Yes, you should be angry. Yeah, I don't want to disarm people if they're angry because it is the thing that's ⁓ socially and psychologically protects them from abuse, right? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: It's this duality of things. Like the duality of a cult member is that you were a victim and a perpetrator. You were actually both, but you have to reconcile with both if you're going to deprogram. You have to acknowledge I was, I've been abused. I've been abused by predatory people who wanted to use me. And at the same time, I've got to take responsibility for the heinous stuff I said and did while I was in that group. You Leigh/@followtheleighder: You know, it's funny you said that about people like, I made a video about this last week. I've talked quite a bit about how predator, what a predator Pete Hegseth is, but I made the comment that based on some of the comments from Doug Wilson about how he ministers to pedophiles and a lot of his hateful comments towards women. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, but again, it's that victim-perpetrator duality, lots to reconcile with. ⁓ Talk to me about how you're the community, you have found the support. What was it, like you said, you talked about clinical depression, but what else? What were the light? What was the good? Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, man, feel like I feel more like myself every day. ⁓ I've recovered the locus of control. It rests with me now. I negotiated two raises last year at my job. And I did it because I did a job interview with a different ⁓ company. And I took that offer back to my current job, so that if you match it, I'll stay. And that may sound like a random, unconnected example. But your sense of self does not exist inside of a cult. You cannot acknowledge that you have needs as a person, as an individual inside of a cult group, because you will always do whatever it takes to comply. And so we end up being the people in society who not only are we taking advantage of inside of our cult group, we're also taking advantage of in society in general. And so something where nowadays the truth, I know the truth that every single company, they're trying to squeeze blood from a rock. That's what they're trying to do. They're not trying to look out for their employees. They're not trying to make the world a better place. They're trying to maximize shareholder value. That's the truth. And when I was inside the cult group, I would never have dared think those thoughts, even though it's the truth. If you really want to respect an employee, you pay him more. That's the bottom line. And so that's just one example of me recovering my own sense of self where I deserve to be paid more because this other job is saying they'll pay me more. So how about you match it? And they did it twice. And I got a retention bonus on top of that. just this whole interplay, like a lot of people in cult groups, ⁓ they're trained to disappear. You're trained to not take up any space whatsoever. And I know that's strange because I have a very big personality and I have a voice that like cuts through space and time. Like it seems counterintuitive, but you got to understand how deep the programming goes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and for you. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: So now our friend circle now is ⁓ mostly neurodivergent people, by the way. This is funny. But they understand. They understand empathy. They understand kindness. They understand, you know, working on yourself, trying to be better, those kinds of things. And they're not doing it because of religious dogma. or some other ⁓ ethereal motivation. It's all about, no, this is the real world we live in. And this is the kind of person I want to be and so I will. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That is... Because I'm like listening to you and I'm like, how? There's no way you were in a cult. But like that's exactly... Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: 100 % I was. Yeah, that's what I said. always says online. They cannot believe, especially the way I present, you know, in my content, they're like, there's no way brother, there's no way you were Magnus. I'm like, yes, there is. Yes, there is. How about this? I know that Rush Limbaugh used to call the Atlanta Journal Constitution, the Atlanta urinal and constipation. Now, how would I know that unless I listened to a hell of a lot of Rush Limbaugh? I cracked that joke to the senior pastor of the church I grew up at and he finished my sentence. And we both had a good laugh. I was in it, brother. It wasn't called MAGA back then, but I'm gonna tell you, I was one of them. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. and ⁓ it's a tough place to be. And I commend you again for being so courageous, for walking through all of that and finding, you know, a lot of folks, the scary part about having something so narrow, so specific is that once you leave, there's nothing else quite like it to replace it. And like... Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: ⁓ yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: want it so late because yeah you have the structure the rules the dogma the doctrine but it was your community that was your friend group it was how you saw the world it was everything and so for Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Ugh. All right. You can't I gotta say you can't bill my insurance for therapy. I'm just letting you know. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. But my point being the hard part about deconstructing is The left is so messy right now. Look, whatever you want to call that. That's why I keep putting it in quotes. So what does it look like for someone like you to rebuild? who you called neurodivergence? Do you do you replace the Sunday that you lost that you're not going to church anymore with a new congregation? Do you not do church at all? What what does your life look like to fill in the gaps? Because it's grief. There's a lot of Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Mm-hmm. Right. you. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: grief there. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Listen. ⁓ That's stealing. You said it, like that word grief. My phone is still full of worship music. I don't listen to it. Like if I put my phone on shuffle, I'd skip. But it's all still there. It's all still there because It's almost like, ⁓ If I delete it, I'm... I'm saying goodbye to the kid who's learned to play guitar and learned all this song. it is grief. It's it's ⁓ it's a more, somebody dies. When you escape or someone dies and it's you. But yours, you're still alive. That's the wild thing. People don't, you know. That's one of the reasons I was so struck by Carter Brown's story, her talking about all these things. And I'm like, oh, God, we're watching the death of someone. This is really weird. sometimes she gets angry that people are so angry at her. And I'm like, is the ghost that's talking right now. So yeah, it's the grief. For me personally, like, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: I haven't been to church in years ⁓ and I don't want to go back because ⁓ I've had enough of church. I've been to enough church to last me three lifetimes. ⁓ My mom, ⁓ she had a drug problem because every time the church doors were open, she drug us to church. So on that front, I can't go and Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: You know, I know there are more way more progressive progressive and close progressive churches out there, but I just I don't want to hear about the Bible anymore. I don't want to sit in a room and listen to somebody talk about the Bible because I'm like. You know, I'll end up shouting from the congregation. That's an inconsistent hermetic, You know, so. So honestly, I was going to say this. I was thinking about this today like. Every time I'm on a podcast or I make a video where I talk about these things, like, is oddly and deeply soothing. Because I feel like I'm connecting with who I actually am. When I when I present, you know who I am in this moment, it's. Yeah, I started, you know, I started getting invited to be on podcast recently and I just started accepting and. The emotions were very weird. I'm like, am I accepting all these invites to be on these people's podcasts? And then it hit me. You're enjoying this. This feels good to you. It feels good to you. And I'm like, well, why do I enjoy it so much? Because you're getting to talk about all the 30 feet of BS you've dug out from underneath. It feels good. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, it's liberating. It's the truth. It's like it's testimony, it's witness, but not in someone else's narrative or idea. It's yours. Like this is my reality and I'm gonna say it. I, ⁓ folks, real quick, just wanted y'all to know that my headphones are like one ear is working. So if I cut out... Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Me too. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay, fantastic. But we are getting close to the top of the hour. ⁓ Can you share with us how folks can reach you for folks who might be struggling? Can you share a few either creators or books you've used? But how can people learn more and just who are inspired? Give them some action. Give them some homework. Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah, right, right. So you find me at Epistemic Crisis everywhere. I'm on such stack as Epistemic Crisis, y'all. I'll put y'all on the end because Epistemic Crisis was already taken. So that's where you can find me. But if you are, if you're deeply questioning right wing authoritarian, ideology or you're a Trump voter or you're MAGA and you're like, I am not sure because of recent events or maybe the last year or whatever. I want to encourage you to look up Dr. Stephen Hassan. I mentioned him before. On top of being a cult expert, he's also an ex-cult member. He was part of the Moonies in the early seventies. So he wrote a book called The Cult of Trump, where he applies all of his expertise to Trump in particular. But he also all of his books are phenomenal. There's one called ⁓ Escaping Cult Mind Control. ⁓ Freedom of Mind, I believe, is another one of his. it just this look up Dr. Steven has freedom of mind dot org or dot com. I I remember which one it is, but you've got a bunch of resources. You can download his bike model that I mentioned earlier for free. And you can also download what he calls the influence continuum. which is a tool you can download as a free PDF. It's a tool that you can use to determine whether or not a group or an individual is having a toxic influence or a constructive influence. So again, the reason I point to a cult expert, if you are a Trump supporter, is that you have been the victim of cult mind control techniques. I'm sorry, there's no easy way to say that. Just bite the bullet. If you don't have the courage to stay cold, that's fine. Look him up and go from there. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, Dr. Adam James, you have been absolutely amazing today. What a rich conversation, a connecting conversation. I do hope that you'll come back and that we stay in touch. Folks, can you say one more time what your user handle is? Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. ⁓ Epistemic crisis. Leigh/@followtheleighder: epistemic crisis folks go follow him go learn go see what's up this the stuff goes deep and and to remember that while we're navigating the abuse of these systems that we keep folks humanity at mind that we don't become the monsters that we're trying to take down ⁓ and ⁓ and continue to build a world of freedom for all ⁓ and that starts with the freedom of conscience freedom of thought ⁓ Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: So thank you again for coming and hanging out. You want to say any last words or goodbyes real quick? Dr. Adam James, Ex-Evangelical Creator: ⁓ I love to say I love to quote Samwise Ganji from The Lord of the Rings, because there's some good in the world and it's worth fighting for. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Amen. Amen. Been watching that one quite a bit. Folks, that's another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and that was Adam James out of Augusta, Georgia. Thank you again for being here. Let me know, folks. What did you think? Tell me in the comments. And don't forget to like, share, subscribe, follow. You know the drill. But until next time, this was Follow the Leighder. your host, Leigh Larson. See ya. ⁓