Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #84: A Knives Out View of Faith

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#84: A Knives Out View of Faith · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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Who would have thought that a detective movie about murder
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SPEAKER_02: starring the last James Bond that we've had so far,
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would offer not only a harsh but realistic take on or critique
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on Christianity,
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but would also be a movie that very movingly presents the
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message of Jesus all
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SPEAKER_02: wrapped up in a murder mystery.
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SPEAKER_02: Well, that's what we have with the third outing from the Knives Out crew.
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SPEAKER_02: which is a delightful series anyway.
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SPEAKER_02: I love it.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm a big detective guy anyway.
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SPEAKER_02: But this is an exceptional movie franchise.
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SPEAKER_02: And this particular movie has at its core,
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SPEAKER_02: even though it's about murder,
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SPEAKER_02: has at its core a discussion of faith,
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SPEAKER_02: a discussion of Christianity,
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SPEAKER_02: a discussion of the message of Jesus,
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SPEAKER_02: doubt,
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SPEAKER_02: faith,
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SPEAKER_02: all these issues.
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SPEAKER_02: Well, well done.
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SPEAKER_02: And I had one of our listeners sent me an email and said,
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SPEAKER_02: you got to watch this movie and talk about on your podcast.
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SPEAKER_02: And it was already on my list of movies to watch.
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And as soon as it was done,
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I thought,
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yes,
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I know why she wants us to talk about on podcast.
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SPEAKER_02: So we're calling this a knives out view of faith.
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SPEAKER_02: And we're not talking about circumcision.
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SPEAKER_02: We're talking about the movie, not the circumcision.
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um john d burgess is with us today and terry is still at the
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dentist so it's two
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weeks now she's at the dentist because we record on the same
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day so she'll
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hopefully she'll be back with us uh next week um john uh and i
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were talking a
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little bit before we came on uh live here uh and he has seen
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the movie except he
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doesn't know how it ended he stopped the movie about 20 minutes
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in uh left
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And I promise you we're not going to give any major spoilers in
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this discussion.
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SPEAKER_02: I do think that there's enough to talk about to sort of,
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SPEAKER_02: as we begin this new year,
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talking about faith and how do we want to share the message of
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Jesus this year.
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SPEAKER_02: We started last week by looking at Mr.
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Rogers and his understanding of the gospel and how we need to
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be a bit more
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SPEAKER_02: compassionate,
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SPEAKER_02: maybe a lot more compassionate.
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um john i uh i already knew that the movie was going to have
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some religious
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overtones to it was was quite surprised really at how much
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christianity played a
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role in this movie both the positives and the negatives yeah um
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but give me just
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sort of your impressions of not the murder mystery itself but
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some of the things
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SPEAKER_02: that you saw um
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SPEAKER_02: Being said about Christianity.
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Well,
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yeah,
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I just to be clear we're talking about wake up dead man a
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knives wake up.
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SPEAKER_02: That's right.
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Thank you is on Netflix Who is not currently a sponsor of the
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podcast here,
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SPEAKER_00: but you know,
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SPEAKER_00: we're open to discussion.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: we sure are You know,
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I I think any time I'm watching good TV and The story arc
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starts touching on
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SPEAKER_00: Christianity.
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SPEAKER_00: I get nervous and
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And I get nervous because I think it's I think Christianity can
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be an easy and
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convenient sort of scapegoat for otherwise what might be great
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storytelling.
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SPEAKER_00: And so I start I start thinking, well,
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
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But the vision of Christianity,
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the presenting,
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that's really bad theology,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: Or really immature theology.
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SPEAKER_00: Or, well, they're just showing the... And I start getting defensive.
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I want to ask you about that,
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Tim,
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because I think that a lot of us kind of feel that way.
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And then we start feeling like we need to be defenders of the
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faith in mass media.
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SPEAKER_00: And not many of us work in mass media, so it doesn't really...
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SPEAKER_00: It doesn't really work that way.
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SPEAKER_00: So I want to talk about that.
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SPEAKER_00: But I also want to say with particular attention to this movie,
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I was really kind of delighted to see one of the main
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characters presenting this
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SPEAKER_00: beautiful and what I consider correct,
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SPEAKER_00: but sort of beautiful,
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SPEAKER_00: loving character.
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gracious approach that Jesus has to all of us broken people
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trying to live a
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SPEAKER_00: difficult life through the ups and downs of life.
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I just thought the younger priest in particular was just,
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I don't know how they came up with it.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know who the influencers were that they had on the set,
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SPEAKER_00: but wow,
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I just thought some of the stuff coming out of his mouth was
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just gorgeous.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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I think part of why I'm fascinated with this movie is not just
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because I thought it
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SPEAKER_02: was a great movie,
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but it offers these almost two contrasting pictures of
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Christianity in the United
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SPEAKER_02: States of America right now.
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Sort of a ham-fisted,
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angry,
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we need to be a Christian nation view of Christianity.
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And then you've got the other side where you've got someone who
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really is trying to
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SPEAKER_02: live out the message of Jesus himself.
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SPEAKER_02: And...
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SPEAKER_02: In many ways,
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Christianity and the message of Jesus doesn't necessarily mean
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they're the same
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SPEAKER_02: thing.
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SPEAKER_02: Should be, but aren't always.
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SPEAKER_02: And I thought that this movie,
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SPEAKER_02: just on a higher level,
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SPEAKER_02: and I'm going to read out some quotes for you here in a minute,
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SPEAKER_02: really captures that.
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And I think it's something that we as Christians want to really
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be aware of,
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SPEAKER_02: how it is that the world is looking at us.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think how it is that the world wants us to be.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Reality versus the aspiration.
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And I found out after I watched the movie,
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because I wanted to go in as ignorant as possible.
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SPEAKER_02: The guy who wrote the movie,
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SPEAKER_02: who's written the franchise,
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SPEAKER_02: is a former Southern Baptist,
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SPEAKER_02: was raised in the Southern Baptist Church,
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SPEAKER_02: says he's not a believer anymore.
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SPEAKER_02: But obviously, he got some things.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's some stuff that resonates.
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SPEAKER_02: Really aspirational stuff.
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SPEAKER_02: And there's a couple of really good lines I'm going to share here.
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SPEAKER_02: To go back to your point,
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SPEAKER_02: John,
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SPEAKER_02: when I watch TV shows,
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SPEAKER_02: The Chosen Aside,
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SPEAKER_02: which is an excellent,
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SPEAKER_02: probably one of the best Christian produced pieces ever made.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm like you.
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SPEAKER_02: First of all, I get a little defensive.
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SPEAKER_02: And I want to yell and say, that's not, that's not even close.
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SPEAKER_02: Right.
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SPEAKER_02: And particularly when they show pastors,
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SPEAKER_02: because a lot of times these pastors are,
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SPEAKER_02: they're either really angry,
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SPEAKER_02: which we see some of that in this movie.
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Or their preaching is just horrible and they're just spouting
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stuff that has
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SPEAKER_02: nothing to do with anything.
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SPEAKER_02: Which we see some of in this movie.
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So you rarely get where I would say that would have made an
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excellent sermon in a church.
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SPEAKER_02: You rarely see that in these TV shows.
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You wonder how anybody's even at these churches because the
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preaching is just
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SPEAKER_02: terrible and they're not saying anything.
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SPEAKER_02: This movie...
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SPEAKER_02: was very different.
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SPEAKER_02: And that's why when I was done with the movie,
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SPEAKER_02: I said to my wife,
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SPEAKER_02: Jan,
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that is one of the most profound spiritual movies about Jesus I
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have seen in a
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SPEAKER_02: long,
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SPEAKER_02: long time.
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SPEAKER_02: And so people are going to have to watch the movie to find out.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to give you the end.
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But I want to start out,
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John,
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with a couple quotes to show the contrast here.
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SPEAKER_02: I want to start out with quotes that kind of
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SPEAKER_02: root themselves,
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SPEAKER_02: and I think realistically so,
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SPEAKER_02: in the Christianity that far too many people are seeing today.
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SPEAKER_02: So the movie starts out with this young priest,
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SPEAKER_02: Father Judd,
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SPEAKER_02: who is a former boxer,
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SPEAKER_02: and I'm not going to tell you his background story.
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SPEAKER_02: He becomes a priest.
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SPEAKER_02: He's got a little bit of a problem still with his anger.
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SPEAKER_02: And in one of the opening scenes, he punches out another priest.
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SPEAKER_02: So he has to go before the tribunal.
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SPEAKER_02: And he's sitting there.
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SPEAKER_02: Now, this is the Catholic world.
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SPEAKER_02: So I don't know what a priest is from a bishop.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't understand that completely.
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SPEAKER_02: But there are three people on the panel.
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SPEAKER_02: And one of them says to the young priest,
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SPEAKER_02: we need fighters today,
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SPEAKER_02: but not to fight ourselves,
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SPEAKER_02: but to fight the world.
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SPEAKER_02: And he goes on to say the priest is a shepherd.
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SPEAKER_02: The world is a wolf.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And then a couple more.
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SPEAKER_02: And then let's unpack that.
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This young priest is sent up to a church where there's a priest
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there who's well
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SPEAKER_02: entrenched in the congregation and who is angry.
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SPEAKER_02: He preaches intentionally to hack people off.
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SPEAKER_02: His sermon's a good one if someone gets up and walks out.
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SPEAKER_02: And he is essentially,
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SPEAKER_02: without saying it a lot,
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SPEAKER_02: I would appreciate that I didn't go into too much of it.
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SPEAKER_02: He is essentially a Christian nationalist,
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meaning he believes that Christianity should set the agenda for
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the United States
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SPEAKER_02: of America,
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SPEAKER_02: and his Christianity is very angry.
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SPEAKER_02: And one of his lines is, the world is out to get us.
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SPEAKER_02: I hold the line.
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SPEAKER_02: I hold the line.
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And then finally,
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I don't have the direct quote,
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but somebody is saying to the young priest that
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anger-driven religion or anger-driven politics basically seeks
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to create an enemy
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SPEAKER_02: in order to control people with fear.
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SPEAKER_02: Right?
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So we want to create an enemy and I'm going to fight this enemy
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on your behalf.
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So follow me as your political leader,
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follow me as your religious leader.
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And in all of those instances,
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and these are all,
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I think we see them all the time,
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SPEAKER_02: This is the view that people have of Christianity today,
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SPEAKER_02: that we see the world as the enemy,
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SPEAKER_02: we see the world as wolves,
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SPEAKER_02: we see the world as a place to be condemned and purified by condemnation,
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and that the best possible scenario for the United States of
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America is to become
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SPEAKER_02: that kind of a Christian nation,
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which I think very few people would like at all except for
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those who are in power.
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SPEAKER_02: But it is the view, I think, that people have a Christianity.
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SPEAKER_02: We're angry at the world.
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SPEAKER_02: The world is the enemy.
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SPEAKER_02: We're here to condemn the world.
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SPEAKER_02: And we're here to change the world through the fire of condemnation.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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And I think that captured a little bit and we'll tease it all a
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little bit more,
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SPEAKER_02: but your,
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SPEAKER_02: your impressions of,
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SPEAKER_00: of,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: no,
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SPEAKER_00: I think that,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: I,
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SPEAKER_00: I think you're certainly right in saying that,
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SPEAKER_00: uh,
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SPEAKER_00: and you know,
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it's hard to talk about what was a pretty good movie without
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giving away all of the
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SPEAKER_00: movies.
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SPEAKER_00: So we're working, I hope.
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SPEAKER_00: And, and by the way, we forgot to say thanks for the question.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, thanks for sending the question in.
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SPEAKER_00: We love to get questions from readers.
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SPEAKER_00: Love to get that feedback.
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SPEAKER_00: Keep it going.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Certainly,
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the images that are portrayed of the senior priest at this
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particular parish
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SPEAKER_00: represent the absolute worst of Christian nationalism,
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SPEAKER_00: as I understand it,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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And to a large extent,
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this younger priest is just coming into this firestorm and
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where the few parishioners that are left have sort of been
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trained in this really
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kind of radicalized view of the impact and the importance of
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how the church lives
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SPEAKER_00: in current events and lives with the state,
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SPEAKER_00: really.
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SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I thought,
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SPEAKER_00: Tim,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't want to jump ahead on you,
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but one of the things that I thought was so beautiful is these
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three movies are
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SPEAKER_00: fast-paced movies.
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SPEAKER_00: This is a traditional whodunit.
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SPEAKER_00: where we get to know all of the kind of main characters.
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SPEAKER_00: And at this point in the franchise,
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SPEAKER_00: by the way,
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SPEAKER_00: the main characters are played by by actors that you will recognize like,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: that's that guy playing that,
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SPEAKER_00: which which makes it even more.
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SPEAKER_00: And they all have their own.
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SPEAKER_00: They are really well developed characters.
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SPEAKER_00: They all have their own things.
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But everything's happening really fast and you really have to
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pay attention.
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And it's not uncommon for them to show a scene that they showed
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30 minutes ago.
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SPEAKER_00: And there's one little detail that you missed as a viewer.
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SPEAKER_00: And if you would have caught on to that, you kind of be understanding.
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SPEAKER_00: So it's really fast.
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SPEAKER_00: And what I one of the most beautiful parts of this particular movie,
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SPEAKER_00: I felt we're right in the middle of it.
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SPEAKER_00: the younger priest,
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SPEAKER_00: who at this point is completely caught up in the investigation,
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SPEAKER_00: and he's one of the suspects,
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and he actually just takes a moment when someone comes to him
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who's really grieving
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SPEAKER_00: something.
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In other words,
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he takes that moment to be a pastor with all of that going on,
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SPEAKER_00: And,
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SPEAKER_00: and the,
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the entire show I felt like just softens for two or three beats
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as we're waiting
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SPEAKER_00: for that to happen.
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SPEAKER_00: And we kind of know what's happening.
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SPEAKER_00: I just thought that was really, really well done.
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SPEAKER_00: It was just artistry.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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So the,
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you've got on the one hand,
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you've got this sort of this,
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it's not a caricature.
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I think it's a real picture of how people view Christianity
14:00
pretty mean and
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SPEAKER_02: On the other side,
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SPEAKER_02: and we'll get to him in a moment,
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SPEAKER_02: this other view of not Christianity,
14:06
SPEAKER_02: but of Jesus.
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SPEAKER_02: We'll make that distinction for the sake of discussion.
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But sort of in the middle is the detective,
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brilliantly played by Daniel Craig.
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SPEAKER_02: And he is the former James Bond.
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SPEAKER_02: He plays a detective called Beno Blanc.
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or benoit i guess i guess benoit blanc and when he first walks
14:34
into the church and
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meets this young priest after the murder has taken place and we
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won't tell you
14:40
who's murdered um this young priest sort of begins to ask the
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detective about his
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own faith and he's and and starts out by saying what do you
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think of this place and
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SPEAKER_02: they're in kind of an old gothic church in new york and um
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Benoit Blanc is looking at the architecture and he's commenting
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on how beautiful it is.
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SPEAKER_02: But then he says this,
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SPEAKER_02: and I thought this was,
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SPEAKER_02: I spent 10 minutes writing down word for word what he said here.
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SPEAKER_02: He's looking at the architecture and then he says,
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SPEAKER_02: it's like someone has shown a story at me that I do not believe.
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SPEAKER_02: It's built upon an empty promise of a child's fairy tale
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filled with malevolence and misogyny and homophobia and its
15:30
justified untold acts
15:32
of violence and cruelty while all the while and still hiding
15:36
its own shameful acts.
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SPEAKER_02: So like an ornery mule kicking back,
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I want to pick it apart and pop its perfidious bubble of belief
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and get to a truth
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SPEAKER_02: I can swallow without choking.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: And you hear him say that, and it's such a poignant moment.
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SPEAKER_02: And you just want to walk up and say, no, that's not who we are.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's hard to hear.
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SPEAKER_02: That's who people see.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I wasn't offended by the speech.
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I thought,
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here's a guy who has seen the worst that Christianity has to
16:21
offer.
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SPEAKER_02: And this is what he feels like.
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SPEAKER_02: He doesn't see this love and grace.
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SPEAKER_02: He sees the anger and the condemnation.
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SPEAKER_02: And I've read a couple online comments on this.
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And one of the things that really frustrates me is when people
16:39
will try to defend
16:40
SPEAKER_02: it and say,
16:40
SPEAKER_02: well,
16:41
SPEAKER_02: Christians aren't perfect.
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SPEAKER_02: And yes, sometimes we're hypocrites.
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SPEAKER_02: And I thought, no, that's not what this is about.
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SPEAKER_02: This is about a prevailing view of Christianity in the world right now,
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SPEAKER_02: in the United States of America right now,
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SPEAKER_02: that is angry and hate-filled and misogynistic and homophobic.
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And it does justify all kinds of cruelty and justifies people
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who commit that
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SPEAKER_02: cruelty as long as they're fighting my political battles.
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SPEAKER_02: And so people are judging.
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SPEAKER_02: They're not judging Jesus at this point.
17:16
SPEAKER_02: They're judging Christianity.
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SPEAKER_02: Christianity.
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And what this said to me was people are gagging and they're
17:25
choking on this message
17:28
SPEAKER_02: of violence and hatred and condemnation.
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SPEAKER_02: And I just thought it was such a powerful moment in the movie.
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SPEAKER_02: And then we'll get to the priest's response here in a moment.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: So tell me when you heard him say that.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Well,
17:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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it's just hard to hear because I think it's incredibly powerful
17:46
language that
17:47
SPEAKER_00: describes the concern that I have,
17:50
that many people have with the rhetoric that we're seeing in
17:55
particular in my
17:56
SPEAKER_00: country today,
17:57
SPEAKER_00: in America today.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't think it was inaccurate.
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SPEAKER_00: I just thought it was, it had put
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SPEAKER_00: very careful and powerfully chosen words to a deep concern, right?
18:12
SPEAKER_00: And something that we're battling with.
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SPEAKER_00: And I thought that the younger priest's response to it,
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SPEAKER_00: this is the part where I start getting nervous,
18:20
SPEAKER_00: right?
18:20
Because I'm like,
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wow,
18:22
what is going to be the on-screen response to that?
18:25
SPEAKER_00: And I hope it has some semblance of
18:27
SPEAKER_00: of grace and understanding, but also intellectually driven insight.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Like, I want all of that.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: And I don't get that very often.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: But I thought his response was pretty good.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: So let's turn the corner a little bit now.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: We've kind of been talking about how this movie gives a realistic,
18:50
SPEAKER_02: unvarnished,
18:53
SPEAKER_02: uncomfortable look at the Christianity too many people see today.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: So let's turn to the Pastor Judd here for a moment.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Here's his response to Benoit Blanc's statement.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: And basically, the detective says, was I too honest?
19:12
SPEAKER_02: And he said, no, no, no, it was good.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: It was good.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: And then he says this.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: The question is,
19:19
SPEAKER_02: do these stories convince us of a lie,
19:22
SPEAKER_02: which is kind of what Blanc was saying,
19:25
SPEAKER_02: or do they resonate with
19:27
SPEAKER_02: was something deep inside us that's profoundly true,
19:32
SPEAKER_02: that we can't express any other way except storytelling.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: And I thought that was a brilliant line because sometimes as I listen,
19:41
SPEAKER_02: even sometimes in Christianity,
19:46
SPEAKER_02: people who don't believe it just say it's fairy tales.
19:51
And then you sort of want to say,
19:53
all right,
19:54
so tell me what it is you don't believe.
19:57
But when people hear the Jesus story,
20:04
love your neighbors,
20:04
you love yourself.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: Care for those who are poor and oppressed.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: Fight for those who have nobody fighting for them.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: Forgive as you have been forgiven.
20:18
When they see a Jesus on a cross who has been put there by his
20:22
enemies and he says,
20:22
SPEAKER_02: Father,
20:23
SPEAKER_02: forgive them because they don't know what they're doing.
20:27
SPEAKER_02: I think that those are,
20:28
SPEAKER_02: to quote Father Judd,
20:32
those are stories that resonate with something deep inside of
20:36
us that's profoundly
20:38
SPEAKER_02: true.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: And I sometimes wonder if people get angry at Christianity,
20:46
not just because the Christianity they're being peddled does
20:49
make them choke,
20:52
SPEAKER_02: but because they're so disappointed in us.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: Because so deeply they yearn for this Jesus story that says,
20:59
SPEAKER_02: blessed are the meek,
20:59
SPEAKER_02: as Tim talked about last week.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: Blessed are the poor in spirit.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: Father, forgive them.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: Love your neighbors, you love yourself.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: Love your enemy.
21:09
Because they want that story so desperately,
21:12
they want that story to be true.
21:15
And yet those of us who say we believe in that story live as if
21:18
it's not true.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: And I wonder if this movie...
21:25
is capturing some of that disappointment in a guy like the
21:30
detective here who makes
21:31
SPEAKER_02: this brilliant statement.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: And,
21:34
SPEAKER_02: of course,
21:34
you'll see a little bit of a – he doesn't become a Christian at
21:37
the end of the
21:38
SPEAKER_02: movie.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: That's a spoiler.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: But he does have – he's impacted by this story that Father Judd tells.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: A couple more from Father Judd.
21:50
uh when the when the bishop says to him hey tim yeah right
21:53
before you move on i
21:54
just want to say one one thing that i thought was great about
21:57
father judge response
21:58
there was it's it's not the response that that culture and
22:02
youtube is teaching us
22:03
we should have which is let me give you the five points why
22:06
you're wrong followed
22:08
by two more that will um shame you into never saying something
22:11
again his his
22:13
SPEAKER_00: response was actually more of an invitation
22:15
SPEAKER_00: It was actually more of a,
22:17
SPEAKER_00: it was a paradigm shift in thinking,
22:18
but it was a really kind way to say there could be something
22:21
else here that's worth
22:23
SPEAKER_00: talking about.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: I just thought that was part of the movie.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: It was brilliant.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: And this is why I think the movie itself is so brilliant,
22:28
SPEAKER_02: because it is so clear in its critiques of Christianity,
22:32
SPEAKER_02: and it is so spot on in the presentation of the Jesus story.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: It's just beautifully, beautifully written in that sense.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Sorry to interrupt.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: No, that's good.
22:42
SPEAKER_02: So when Father Judd,
22:44
SPEAKER_02: back to the beginning of the movie,
22:45
SPEAKER_02: hears this bishop say,
22:47
SPEAKER_02: we need fighters today to fight the world.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: The priest is a shepherd.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: The world is a wolf.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: Father Judd says a couple of things I think are really interesting.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: He says,
22:56
SPEAKER_02: when you start fighting wolves,
23:00
SPEAKER_02: pretty soon you find everyone with whom you disagree is a wolf.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: So I thought that was really profound,
23:09
SPEAKER_02: that if you don't see people or you see people as your enemies,
23:14
SPEAKER_02: then everybody's going to be your enemy sooner or later.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: And then he says, Christ came to heal the world, not fight it.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: And he said, essentially, the gospel is this.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: And he stretched out his arms.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: He said, it is not this.
23:27
SPEAKER_02: And then he put his fists up.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: It is not a fight.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: It's an embrace of grace.
23:33
SPEAKER_02: And that's,
23:33
SPEAKER_02: again,
23:34
SPEAKER_02: why so much of what Father Judd was about was,
23:41
SPEAKER_02: interestingly,
23:42
SPEAKER_02: I think,
23:42
SPEAKER_02: would you agree with this,
23:43
SPEAKER_02: John?
23:43
It was almost like he was radically different than anybody else
23:49
in the story.
23:51
SPEAKER_02: And should that be, should he have been so radically different?
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think that's right.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the contrast was just beautiful storytelling.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was well written.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: And again,
24:07
I think the reason why we're talking about this today is it's
24:16
hard not to be
24:17
passionate about and a little bit angry about these really bad
24:23
presentations of
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Christianity.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:26
that we see in this movie about fighting the world and holding
24:29
the line and
24:31
condemning people and calling them out on their sin versus the
24:35
father judge of the
24:36
SPEAKER_02: world who want to embrace and love and care for the world.
24:38
It's hard not to be,
24:39
especially a guy like me,
24:41
I put 41 years of my life into being a pastor.
24:44
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: Why is it we Christians aren't getting it?
24:50
SPEAKER_02: What have we missed here?
24:53
We've gotten so driven by power and condemnation that we've
24:56
lost what it means to
24:57
SPEAKER_02: serve and to love.
24:59
It probably doesn't help for a guy to get angry about people
25:02
who are angry.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we need to fight those people.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're the enemy.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: You know, the point is that Jesus loves us all.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: But there's a world that's watching.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I think this movie is saying.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: There's a world that's watching.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: And what they're seeing right now,
25:26
SPEAKER_02: especially younger generations of people,
25:28
SPEAKER_02: what they're seeing right now is not to their liking.
25:32
They're not seeing a story that speaks to the deepest levels of
25:35
their human spirit.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: They're hearing a message that makes them choke and gag.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:41
And it would be good for us as Christians to step back and say,
25:45
why is that?
25:47
SPEAKER_02: And if I look at people,
25:51
SPEAKER_02: if I look at the world and I see it as the enemy,
25:54
SPEAKER_02: if I look at the world and I see wolves,
25:56
SPEAKER_02: if I look at the world and say Christianity is the last line of defense,
26:02
SPEAKER_02: then maybe it's time for us to take a breath and read Jesus again.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: And to see that for Jesus, it wasn't about being a last line of defense.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: It was crossing over those lines with grace and compassion.
26:19
SPEAKER_02: It was spending time listening to stories.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: It was as we talked about last week with Mr.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: Rogers,
26:24
SPEAKER_02: seeing people as neighbors and being able to say to them,
26:27
SPEAKER_02: I am proud of you just as you are and nothing will change that.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: And that's ultimately what will speak to a guy like Benoit Blanc,
26:41
SPEAKER_02: who won't choke on this story,
26:45
SPEAKER_02: but who will...
26:47
SPEAKER_02: have his head turned in a way that will surprise him and shock him,
26:52
SPEAKER_02: that that's the story that you want me to hear?
26:57
SPEAKER_02: I think I could listen to that one.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there might be something there.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want us to give the impression to you that the younger,
27:04
SPEAKER_00: for those that haven't seen it,
27:05
SPEAKER_00: that the younger priest,
27:06
SPEAKER_00: the younger priest is very human,
27:07
SPEAKER_00: has his own stuff that he's working through and is not like,
27:14
SPEAKER_00: it's not like Jesus showed up on the set of this non-Christian movie,
27:18
SPEAKER_00: but
27:19
SPEAKER_00: In some ways, Jesus showed up on the set, I guess.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
27:23
The message that he stuck to throughout the movie is the one
27:29
that I think deep down
27:32
SPEAKER_00: there's a yearning for.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: That's what you're talking about.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:37
And leave it to God to use a former Christian who right now is
27:44
going through
27:46
SPEAKER_02: a period of doubt.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: I'll give him that.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't, I'm putting words in his mouth.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: Maybe he's just completely doesn't buy it at all,
27:54
SPEAKER_02: but to articulate so beautifully what the story is supposed to be.
28:00
And you kind of wonder again,
28:02
I'm,
28:03
I'm speaking on behalf of this guy now.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't know anything about him.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: I read a quick article.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: You got to wonder to yourself, is this the message that he has?
28:13
SPEAKER_02: wants to hear,
28:14
SPEAKER_02: that he craves to hear,
28:16
SPEAKER_02: that he yearns to hear,
28:18
SPEAKER_02: and wants a Father Judd to step up and say,
28:21
SPEAKER_02: this is who Jesus is.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
28:25
SPEAKER_00: it would have been really easy,
28:26
SPEAKER_00: I think,
28:27
to write a story that took place in that context only with sort
28:32
of the extreme
28:35
views of Christianity that people are getting faced with today
28:39
and not provide
28:40
SPEAKER_00: that.
28:40
I mean,
28:41
especially if you're right,
28:43
if the makers of the show,
28:45
or at least one of them,
28:46
is...
28:47
is working through some stuff it would have been very easy to
28:49
do that but and
28:50
that's what always gets me nervous but uh i really encourage
28:54
people if you're a fan
28:55
of murder mysteries at all uh there's uh not a lot of you know
28:59
um violence and gore
29:01
there's there is a little bit but you know go on to common
29:04
sense media or one of
29:05
the other sites kids in mind probably that are reviewing those
29:08
uh they'll tell you
29:09
SPEAKER_00: exactly what to watch out for if you've got a um
29:12
SPEAKER_00: something you want to be careful of in that area.
29:14
But from just a great movie for most folks that really presents
29:20
this kind of
29:20
SPEAKER_00: conflict that I think we're in the midst of right now today,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: as you listen to this in 2026,
29:26
SPEAKER_00: I was just really impressed with that part of it,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: for sure.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: And John's not seen the ending.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to give away the ending.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: But I will say this.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: Grace will show up and it will make you uncomfortable.
29:46
is it bold and reckless it's bold and it's reckless and it will
29:52
and and even though
29:53
i bought into everything it still made me uncomfortable and i
29:57
thought could i go
29:59
that far so yeah so hopefully people will john's gonna go
30:04
finish the movie now um
30:06
SPEAKER_02: yeah all this to say friends that um
30:11
There are a lot of people out there in our world today who deep
30:18
down in their souls
30:21
SPEAKER_02: are looking,
30:22
SPEAKER_02: they're hungry,
30:23
SPEAKER_02: they are desperate for a word of grace and hope and for it to be true.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: We believe it's true.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: Now, how can we share this wonder-filled story
30:39
SPEAKER_02: in the way that Jesus shared it,
30:42
SPEAKER_02: that drew people to him,
30:44
SPEAKER_02: not repelled them,
30:46
SPEAKER_02: that moved Jesus to go to them,
30:48
SPEAKER_02: not see them as the enemy,
30:51
SPEAKER_02: and that ultimately transforms the world.
30:54
The good news,
30:55
we're just getting out of Christmas,
30:56
the good news of great joy for all people.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: How can this be good news of great joy for all people?
31:07
SPEAKER_02: And I think this movie...
31:10
SPEAKER_02: offers us a picture of what that can look like.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: So we highly recommend it's called Knives Out, Wake Up Dead Man.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: It's the third in the trilogy.
31:21
You don't need to see the first two to understand what's going
31:23
on in the third one
31:24
SPEAKER_02: at all,
31:25
SPEAKER_02: but it would be helpful to watch the first two as always.
31:28
You sort of get to fall in love with some of the,
31:30
with the detective in particular.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: John, thank you for joining us today.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
31:37
SPEAKER_02: And you're welcome.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: We're not sure what we're talking about.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: About grace.
31:46
SPEAKER_02: Maybe Terry will be back with us.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: All right.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: So, go love your neighbors as you love yourself.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: Let's show them Jesus.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: Have a good week, everyone.