Latest / Leading By Example: Executives Making An Impact / Unshakeable Leadership: Building the American Dream with Ben Walter, CEO of J.P. Morgan Workplace Solutions

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Unshakeable Leadership: Building the American Dream with Ben Walter, CEO of J.P. Morgan Workplace Solutions · Leading By Example: Executives Making An Impact

0:04
Speaker 1: Ruby. You have to know your blast radius. When you're
0:10
Speaker 1: the boss of the company, think about how you could
0:12
Speaker 1: make sort of a flip remark like, oh, we should
0:14
Speaker 1: take a look at this thing, and then a bunch
0:16
Speaker 1: of people go running around and creating all this work
0:18
Speaker 1: that you didn't mean for that to happen. You just
0:21
Speaker 1: asked a question, but they all ran around because the
0:23
Speaker 1: boss said, right, that's your blast radius. We've all worked
0:27
Speaker 1: for a leader who's ah, this is terrible, and everything
0:30
Speaker 1: that happens is a crisis. You can run your own
0:32
Speaker 1: life that way, but when you start to scale, the
0:34
Speaker 1: impact of that becomes enormous.
0:38
Speaker 2: What happens when your words carry more weight than you
0:41
Speaker 2: intend and the way you lead starts to shape everything
0:45
Speaker 2: around you. Hi everyone, I'm Jessica chent Emmy Award winning
0:49
Speaker 2: journalist and author of the book Smart Not Loud, How
0:53
Speaker 2: to Get noticed at work for all the right reasons,
0:55
Speaker 2: And today I'm sitting down with Ben Walter. After four
0:59
Speaker 2: and a half years as CEO of Chase for Business,
1:03
Speaker 2: Ben recently started a new position as CEO of JP
1:07
Speaker 2: Morgan Workplace Solutions, the equity compensation and share plan management provider.
1:13
Speaker 2: Ben's path to that seat winds through thirty years of
1:17
Speaker 2: financial services, from Continental Airlines and Blackrock to his cocks
1:22
Speaker 2: where he first fell in love with the world of
1:24
Speaker 2: small business and never looked back. So as a kid,
1:28
Speaker 2: Ben grew up watching his father, a rabbi, lead a
1:31
Speaker 2: congregation of nearly five thousand people, and it was there
1:35
Speaker 2: he learned what it truly means to be a servant leader.
1:38
Speaker 2: And while Ben will be the first to tell you
1:41
Speaker 2: that the thirty two year old version of himself was
1:44
Speaker 2: not nearly the leader he is today, those early lessons
1:48
Speaker 2: in authenticity, patience, and kindness those never left him. In
1:53
Speaker 2: this conversation, Ben shares a leadership framework he's built over decades,
1:57
Speaker 2: from effective messaging through repetition, to why deep professional connections
2:02
Speaker 2: are important and what he calls confident humility, the idea
2:07
Speaker 2: that the more experienced you become, the more you have
2:10
Speaker 2: to reckon with just how much can go wrong. Then
2:13
Speaker 2: we get into Ben's perspective on hiring and motivating teams
2:17
Speaker 2: and why he believes honest feedback is a single greatest
2:21
Speaker 2: gift you can give someone in their career. Ben Walter
2:24
Speaker 2: shows us that great leadership isn't about having the loudest
2:27
Speaker 2: voice in the room. It's about understanding the reach of
2:31
Speaker 2: your own I'm Jessica Chen and this is leading by example.
2:40
Speaker 2: So for those who might not be familiar with you
2:42
Speaker 2: and your work, Ben, why don't you share a little
2:44
Speaker 2: bit about your background and the work that.
2:46
Speaker 1: You do today. Sure. So, I've been in various pockets
2:49
Speaker 1: of financial services over the last thirty years, and I
2:52
Speaker 1: am currently the CEO of Chase for Business, which is
2:56
Speaker 1: Chase Banks suite of products and services that we offer
2:59
Speaker 1: to small business is across the country. We have relationships
3:02
Speaker 1: with about seven and a half million small businesses from
3:05
Speaker 1: coast to coast, and we offer them everything from banking
3:08
Speaker 1: to credit card to payment acceptance and then a whole
3:11
Speaker 1: bunch of value added services. And we deliver that with
3:14
Speaker 1: our army of people and digital technology all over the country.
3:18
Speaker 2: So in many ways, you are in a position right
3:20
Speaker 2: now where, of course you are leading people. You're leading
3:22
Speaker 2: this huge initiative. But I want to even back up
3:25
Speaker 2: a little bit. So I know you grew up in Houston, Texas,
3:28
Speaker 2: So tell me about how it was like growing up
3:31
Speaker 2: for you, right? Was leadership always on your mind to
3:34
Speaker 2: get you to where you are? Today or what's your
3:36
Speaker 2: perception of that.
3:38
Speaker 1: I think I grew up with it very much on
3:40
Speaker 1: my mind because of my dad and his profession. So
3:43
Speaker 1: my dad passed away last year, but he was a
3:45
Speaker 1: rabbi and he was at the same congregation for fifty
3:50
Speaker 1: five years and it was a huge congregation almost five
3:53
Speaker 1: thousand people. Wow. So he was the spiritual leader for
3:57
Speaker 1: almost five thousand people. And he was a natural leader,
4:00
Speaker 1: and his leadership was very public. You know, he was
4:02
Speaker 1: a preacher obviously, he was up on stage all the time,
4:05
Speaker 1: and he was in the press with some regularity. And
4:08
Speaker 1: so I grew up sort of around that ethos in general,
4:11
Speaker 1: and I think that had a big influence on the
4:13
Speaker 1: way I think about leadership and servant leadership and what
4:17
Speaker 1: it means to sort of both be a public figure
4:19
Speaker 1: but also be someone that others look up to.
4:22
Speaker 2: That is so interesting because of the people that I've
4:24
Speaker 2: interviewed on this podcast and just leaders that I meet
4:27
Speaker 2: in general, I find that it often falls in these
4:29
Speaker 2: two camps where somebody has a father figure or some
4:33
Speaker 2: role model in their life that really shaped how they
4:35
Speaker 2: think about leadership, or the person who I'm interviewing today
4:39
Speaker 2: who isn't in a leadership role. They actually didn't have that,
4:42
Speaker 2: and they almost in a way had to find it themselves.
4:45
Speaker 2: Tell me more about maybe some of the lessons, the
4:48
Speaker 2: conversations that you had that has really stuck with you,
4:51
Speaker 2: about what your father taught you about working with people
4:54
Speaker 2: that you still carry today.
4:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when I think about how I became the
4:59
Speaker 1: leader that I I am today and that I hope
5:01
Speaker 1: to be, you know, that was sort of the seed
5:02
Speaker 1: of it. But I could point to obviously many mentors
5:05
Speaker 1: and leaders that I got to watch and emulate along
5:07
Speaker 1: the way during my career. If I think about my
5:10
Speaker 1: early years and watching my father from afar and up close,
5:13
Speaker 1: I would say there were a few things that were
5:15
Speaker 1: planted pretty deep within me. The most important one is
5:20
Speaker 1: authenticity and how authentic he always was, and how that
5:25
Speaker 1: made me want to emulate that authenticity, and how I
5:27
Speaker 1: think that's why he was able to emotionally and deeply
5:30
Speaker 1: connect with so many people who were so different, right,
5:33
Speaker 1: because when you have that many people, they're all different.
5:35
Speaker 1: And the reason I think it's so important is because humans,
5:39
Speaker 1: Homo sapiens, have an unbelievably fine tuned pardon my French
5:45
Speaker 1: bullshit a meter. I actually mean this, and I think
5:48
Speaker 1: it's in the lizard brain, and I think it goes
5:50
Speaker 1: back to when we were living in clans and the
5:52
Speaker 1: other one was over the hill, and those were the
5:53
Speaker 1: strangers you didn't know, and someone came wandering over the
5:55
Speaker 1: hill and you're like, does he have a spear or
5:57
Speaker 1: does he have a fish? Like? I don't know. I
5:59
Speaker 1: actually believe physiologically that we have the ability to sort
6:03
Speaker 1: of sniff out bs really well and really quickly. And
6:06
Speaker 1: I think that's an evolutionary adaptation. And so I always
6:10
Speaker 1: say to people, remember that time you thought you had
6:12
Speaker 1: him fooled? You didn't You just thought you They knew,
6:15
Speaker 1: they knew, they knew. Of course they knew. You always
6:18
Speaker 1: send this guy's bs and me like, of course you know.
6:21
Speaker 1: And so I tell people all the time that the
6:22
Speaker 1: most important quality of a leader. You can be upbeat
6:26
Speaker 1: or calm, You can be charismatic or subtle. You can
6:30
Speaker 1: put a whole bunch of adjectives on it, which everyone
6:32
Speaker 1: will have their own style, but inauthentic is not one
6:35
Speaker 1: of them, because nobody wants to follow anyone who's in authentic. Ever,
6:39
Speaker 1: And so I think authenticity is the core of any
6:43
Speaker 1: good leader in general. They may not like what you
6:46
Speaker 1: have to say, but if they believe that what you're
6:47
Speaker 1: saying is authentic, they're going to respect you way more
6:50
Speaker 1: than the other way around. And so that's one of
6:52
Speaker 1: the I think the big lessons that I got from
6:54
Speaker 1: my dad, And I would say the second one is
6:56
Speaker 1: I'm trying to decide if the better word is kindness
6:59
Speaker 1: or patience. They're not the same thing, and maybe it's both.
7:02
Speaker 1: But I would say he had an incredible tolerance for
7:07
Speaker 1: people who he disagreed with, who were very different than him,
7:11
Speaker 1: who thought about the world in an orthogonal way to
7:15
Speaker 1: the way he might approach the world, and he just
7:18
Speaker 1: was sort of like, yeah, but we're still going to
7:20
Speaker 1: go on with whatever we're doing. He never let that
7:22
Speaker 1: get to him. He was unflappable in the face of it.
7:24
Speaker 1: So I think that idea of always being able to
7:27
Speaker 1: respect the lens through which someone else might be viewing
7:30
Speaker 1: the world, even if you still disagree and they can't
7:32
Speaker 1: convince you of what they think, is something I've tried
7:34
Speaker 1: to carry with me.
7:36
Speaker 2: I love that. I want to connect it to your
7:38
Speaker 2: early years when you first started working your professional career,
7:41
Speaker 2: so I know you had stints at Boston consultant group
7:44
Speaker 2: Black Rock and His Cocks. How did those traits authenticity, kindness,
7:49
Speaker 2: and patience show up when you are five, ten, fifteen
7:53
Speaker 2: years into your career.
7:54
Speaker 1: Not as well as they do today, I think. I mean,
7:56
Speaker 1: that's the honest thing. You have to admit. Thirty two
7:59
Speaker 1: year old then was not a as good a leader
8:00
Speaker 1: as fifty two year old Ben is. And by the way,
8:03
Speaker 1: I'm fifty two. So if I think about the way
8:06
Speaker 1: I was younger, it's not that those things weren't there,
8:08
Speaker 1: but they certainly weren't as refined and as well thought out.
8:11
Speaker 1: But when I think about the things that I have
8:14
Speaker 1: learned about leadership over the years, while the core was there,
8:17
Speaker 1: what mattered about those roles and those companies was less
8:21
Speaker 1: about whether I was my most authentic self then, or
8:24
Speaker 1: I was my kindest self then, or any of those things.
8:27
Speaker 1: It's that I had two things that everybody needs and
8:30
Speaker 1: everybody needs to recognize, And one is I had incredible
8:35
Speaker 1: mentors who gave me the best thing anyone can ever
8:38
Speaker 1: give anyone else, and that's honest feedback. It's the best
8:42
Speaker 1: thing you can receive in your career. It's the best
8:44
Speaker 1: thing you can receive in your journey as a leader.
8:46
Speaker 1: It's gold dust. And there's only one acceptable answer when
8:50
Speaker 1: someone gives you constructive feedback that is well intentioned, and
8:54
Speaker 1: that is thank you. It's the only thing there is
8:57
Speaker 1: to say it stinks, because what you want to do
8:59
Speaker 1: is argue, and the right thing to do is say
9:02
Speaker 1: thank you and think about it. And the second thing
9:05
Speaker 1: I had was incredible role models of leaders who I
9:09
Speaker 1: got to emulate. So the CEO of my first company
9:11
Speaker 1: when I was at Continental Airlines after college, was Gordon Bethune,
9:14
Speaker 1: legendary CEO at a front row seat watching him operate.
9:19
Speaker 1: When I was at his coocks, I worked for Ronic Masciata,
9:21
Speaker 1: who's still a friend of mine, who was the CEO
9:24
Speaker 1: and a mentor, is still a mentor, and he was
9:26
Speaker 1: a brilliant CEO, and I got to watch him and
9:29
Speaker 1: learn from him. And I could give you ten twenty
9:32
Speaker 1: other leaders who I got to watch in action. And
9:35
Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons, by the way, why I
9:36
Speaker 1: am so against remote work, ah, because for me, personally,
9:41
Speaker 1: I think about every ounce of leadership skill I have,
9:45
Speaker 1: whether it's good enough or not. I definitely only have
9:48
Speaker 1: it because I got to watch and learn by osmosis
9:52
Speaker 1: and by the way, they weren't all good leaders. Some
9:54
Speaker 1: of them weren't, but I learned from the ones that weren't.
9:57
Speaker 1: What I didn't want to do and what you have
9:59
Speaker 1: to do over the course of your career is sort
10:02
Speaker 1: of cherry pick from all the leaders you see, the
10:05
Speaker 1: things that you think are great and work well, and
10:08
Speaker 1: the things that you think aren't as great and don't
10:10
Speaker 1: work as well, and find ways to authentically, coming back
10:14
Speaker 1: to that word, take the best of all the good
10:16
Speaker 1: things and put them together in a portfolio of behaviors
10:19
Speaker 1: and beliefs that allow you to be the best leader
10:22
Speaker 1: you can be.
10:23
Speaker 2: I completely agree with the idea of proximity being a
10:27
Speaker 2: huge way to learn and how you can become a
10:30
Speaker 2: great leader. You know, as a working mom, I understand
10:33
Speaker 2: the conversation around flexibility and being able to work from
10:35
Speaker 2: home to be you know, I get that. I get that.
10:37
Speaker 2: I'm living that right, I get it.
10:39
Speaker 1: It's not that they can't get it. I do get it.
10:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so much value though in to your point,
10:44
Speaker 2: proximity to watching other leaders do the work that they
10:47
Speaker 2: do and using that as a learning experience for yourself.
10:50
Speaker 2: So you know, I'm just imagining the people who are
10:52
Speaker 2: listening to this podcast. They might already be in a
10:54
Speaker 2: leadership role, or they are listening because they want to
10:57
Speaker 2: become a better leader. My question is, how does one
11:01
Speaker 2: go about asking for that honest feedback, asking to have
11:05
Speaker 2: a mentor.
11:06
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say I've ever formally asked for a mentor.
11:08
Speaker 1: It's not my style, but I have definitely had people
11:12
Speaker 1: mentor me, whether formally or informally. But more important on
11:16
Speaker 1: the feedback thing, I have gone to people and said, listen,
11:19
Speaker 1: I want to be better at my job. I'm ambitious,
11:21
Speaker 1: i want to move up to my career. I want
11:23
Speaker 1: to be a leader. I would like your opinion on
11:24
Speaker 1: how I'm doing. I'd like some feedback, please good, bad,
11:27
Speaker 1: and different. I'd like it. I've done three sixties in
11:30
Speaker 1: my career. They can be pretty uncomfortable to read, and
11:32
Speaker 1: by the way, before I do them, I encourage people,
11:35
Speaker 1: please tell the truth. Yeah it's okay. The problem is
11:40
Speaker 1: because it's professional, it's not personal, but it feels personal,
11:44
Speaker 1: and the only way to make your peace with it
11:46
Speaker 1: is to remind yourself that this is a professional exercise,
11:48
Speaker 1: not a personal exercise. Nobody is passing judgment on your
11:52
Speaker 1: quality as a human. They're talking about your skills. Leadership
11:56
Speaker 1: is a skill, how you do it, work is a skill.
11:58
Speaker 1: How you influence others as a skill. It's not a
12:00
Speaker 1: judgment on whether you're a good human or not. That's
12:03
Speaker 1: your own judgment.
12:04
Speaker 2: To make I really feel the differentiation between professional versus personal.
12:08
Speaker 2: That could also allow people to kind of get out
12:10
Speaker 2: of their own head of feeling like, oh, I'm scared
12:12
Speaker 2: to hear what they're going to say, because to your point, Bent,
12:15
Speaker 2: it's not a reflection of who you are as a person.
12:17
Speaker 1: That's right.
12:18
Speaker 2: So you had your experiences at those organizations, and then,
12:22
Speaker 2: of course now you do all things small business at Chase. Now,
12:26
Speaker 2: before we get into that, I want to ask, during
12:28
Speaker 2: your experiences at those companies, what did that start to
12:32
Speaker 2: tell you about the world of working with small businesses.
12:37
Speaker 1: So when I went to work for Hiscock's, I got
12:39
Speaker 1: recruited to go there and I didn't know anything about
12:41
Speaker 1: insurance and I really didn't know anything about small business,
12:44
Speaker 1: but I knew a lot about financial services. So they
12:46
Speaker 1: took a bet on me, lucky for me, but seventy
12:49
Speaker 1: five percent of that business that I ran was small
12:51
Speaker 1: business insurance. It was serving small businesses, and I just
12:55
Speaker 1: fell in love with it. I didn't know that world
12:57
Speaker 1: at all before. My life was very corporate and financial
13:00
Speaker 1: services and institutional, and I was thrust into this world
13:04
Speaker 1: of small business and I just was absolutely blown away
13:09
Speaker 1: by the diversity of the things that people do, by
13:13
Speaker 1: how interesting it all was, by how scrappy they had
13:17
Speaker 1: to be, by what people were able to achieve without
13:20
Speaker 1: all the resources that I was used to having. It
13:23
Speaker 1: was an eye opening experience. So once I got to
13:25
Speaker 1: that role, I was like, this is cool. How did
13:29
Speaker 1: I not know this existed? Like what kelse can I learn?
13:32
Speaker 1: I still remember we were trying to come up with
13:34
Speaker 1: our first ad campaign and we came across this business
13:37
Speaker 1: called Conbody, which still exists, by the way, it's here
13:40
Speaker 1: in Manhattan, and it was a guy who had been
13:44
Speaker 1: in prison for drug trafficking and he had served his
13:48
Speaker 1: time and gotten out. But while he had been in prison,
13:50
Speaker 1: he lost something like one hundred and fifty pounds, some
13:52
Speaker 1: crazy amount of weight, and he did it with this
13:55
Speaker 1: workout regimen that he had developed when he was in
13:57
Speaker 1: his cell, Like it was all body weight. He did
13:59
Speaker 1: it himself, and he came out like ripped, completely jacked whatever.
14:02
Speaker 1: And when he got out, he started a boot camp
14:06
Speaker 1: company in New York in Manhattan where he talked that
14:10
Speaker 1: method to people in the boot camp and he employed
14:13
Speaker 1: other formally incarcerated individuals as the boot camp leader. So
14:17
Speaker 1: he was giving back and making it circular, and he
14:19
Speaker 1: had built a really good business. And I just remember
14:21
Speaker 1: thinking like this is not something that I ever encountered
14:24
Speaker 1: when I was working in some corporate office somewhere, Like
14:26
Speaker 1: this is really different. And I could give you, you know,
14:29
Speaker 1: thirty stories like that, forty stories like that.
14:34
Speaker 2: We'll be back with more, leading by example after a
14:37
Speaker 2: quake break. So you are the host of a podcast yourself.
14:54
Speaker 2: It's called The Unshakables, and you interview a lot of
14:57
Speaker 2: these small business owners, but particularly highlighting some of the
15:00
Speaker 2: toughest moments that they've gone through. What have you learned
15:03
Speaker 2: in that experience of talking to a lot of these
15:06
Speaker 2: small business owners, Like what were some of the leadership
15:09
Speaker 2: tips that you took away?
15:10
Speaker 1: The most important thing you learn in that is how
15:12
Speaker 1: important it is to be resilient. I mean, you cannot
15:15
Speaker 1: overstate the value of being able to take a punch,
15:18
Speaker 1: get knocked down and get right back up, put your
15:20
Speaker 1: gloves on and go back at it. It's a great
15:22
Speaker 1: life skilled no matter what you do. But to be
15:24
Speaker 1: an entrepreneur you have to be able to really do that.
15:28
Speaker 1: So the first is just the value of resilience, and
15:31
Speaker 1: resilience takes many forms. There's physical resilience, there's emotional resilience,
15:34
Speaker 1: there's cognitive resilience, and all of that comes together when
15:38
Speaker 1: you're an entrepreneur and you face that every day. The
15:41
Speaker 1: second thing is the importance of deep connections. And I'm
15:47
Speaker 1: going to say this in a weird way, the size
15:48
Speaker 1: of your rolodex. When you're a small business owner, it's
15:52
Speaker 1: really lonely. It's lonely. I always tell people have a partner.
15:56
Speaker 1: It's a lot less lonely. One plus one is like infinity.
16:00
Speaker 1: Even that aside, go into it with lots of people
16:03
Speaker 1: you can call and talk to, because it is a
16:06
Speaker 1: lonely thing to be the custodian and the CEO all
16:08
Speaker 1: the same time. Every problem that happens is your problem. Right.
16:13
Speaker 1: You can't be like Jess can you take that one
16:15
Speaker 1: like no, it's you. And so I think having a
16:19
Speaker 1: well of resources, friends, former colleagues, advisors that you can
16:25
Speaker 1: call on is critical to people who want to start
16:28
Speaker 1: own a business. And then I think the third thing
16:31
Speaker 1: that I learned when I talk to these entrepreneurs who've
16:33
Speaker 1: had really tough times is if you want to start
16:37
Speaker 1: a business, you have to have a kind of passion
16:41
Speaker 1: that approaches your love for your children. You have to
16:45
Speaker 1: love it that much and you have to want it
16:48
Speaker 1: that much. You can do a corporate job and not
16:50
Speaker 1: want it that much. You cannot do this and not
16:52
Speaker 1: want it that much because the market will eat you alive.
16:56
Speaker 1: So you have to go in saying I have the
16:59
Speaker 1: force of will, the passion to make this happen no
17:02
Speaker 1: matter what.
17:03
Speaker 2: As an entrepreneur myself who owns a small business, I
17:07
Speaker 2: one hundred percent resonate the resilience to get through the
17:11
Speaker 2: crappiest of days or even weeks and months sometimes right
17:14
Speaker 2: you know, you never know what it's going to look like.
17:17
Speaker 2: But also having that network, you know, whether it's joining
17:19
Speaker 2: your local chamber of commerce or an organization that brings
17:23
Speaker 2: other entrepreneurs together. And of course that passion that's going
17:26
Speaker 2: to get you through those really dark times. I was
17:29
Speaker 2: doing some research before our conversation that ninety nine point
17:33
Speaker 2: nine percent of businesses in the US are small businesses.
17:36
Speaker 1: That's right. I was shocked, that's right. I mean, guess
17:39
Speaker 1: how many Fortune five hundred companies there are five hundred, right, right,
17:43
Speaker 1: Like by definition, there's only five hundred of them. There
17:45
Speaker 1: are over forty million businesses in the country, and five
17:48
Speaker 1: hundred of them are in the Fortune five hundred. Five
17:51
Speaker 1: thousand of them are in the Fortune five thousand, right,
17:54
Speaker 1: and then you've still got thirty nine million, nine hundred
17:57
Speaker 1: and whatever. You know, it's like, so, of course it
18:00
Speaker 1: is over ninety nine percent of small businesses. They represent
18:03
Speaker 1: forty four percent of US GDP, so that's almost half
18:07
Speaker 1: the economy. And they create and this is the one
18:10
Speaker 1: that I always want people to remember. They create two
18:12
Speaker 1: out of every three new private sector jobs. So it's
18:16
Speaker 1: not that big companies don't hire people. They do, but
18:18
Speaker 1: they don't grow as fast as people. So it's the
18:20
Speaker 1: creative destruction at the low end of the economy in size,
18:23
Speaker 1: the small end of the economy that creates the new jobs.
18:27
Speaker 1: And so it literally is two of every thing new
18:29
Speaker 1: private sector job that's created.
18:31
Speaker 2: I think I was so surprised by that statistic because
18:34
Speaker 2: when you go and look at the news, it's always
18:36
Speaker 2: the big fortune five hundred companies that are in the news, right,
18:38
Speaker 2: It's very rare that you see news about the small businesses,
18:42
Speaker 2: which brings me to you know, one of the new
18:43
Speaker 2: initiatives that Chase launch, which is the American Dream Initiative.
18:47
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit more about that.
18:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we're super proud of this and what it represents.
18:52
Speaker 1: If you think about we're at the two hundred and
18:53
Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary of the United States, which is a great milestone,
18:57
Speaker 1: and we wanted to both celebrate and knowledge it with
19:00
Speaker 1: a couple of initiatives at JP Morton Chase. The first
19:04
Speaker 1: we launched last year is called the Security and Resiliency Initiative,
19:07
Speaker 1: and that's really around making sure that America has the
19:09
Speaker 1: security and resiliency in things like supply chains and defense
19:13
Speaker 1: and the things that protect America in an increasingly dangerous world.
19:17
Speaker 1: And the second is the American Dream, which is all
19:19
Speaker 1: about exactly what it says on the tin, the American Dream.
19:22
Speaker 1: There is no question that whether it's true in numbers
19:26
Speaker 1: or not. There is a perception out there that the
19:29
Speaker 1: American dream is harder to attain than ever. I think
19:31
Speaker 1: people feel like that. We believe that American capitalism has
19:36
Speaker 1: been the greatest engine of wealth creation and security the
19:39
Speaker 1: world's ever seen. For all its flaws, and of course
19:41
Speaker 1: there are many, but on net, it has left more
19:43
Speaker 1: people better off than anything we've ever seen. And we
19:46
Speaker 1: want to make sure that that dream continues, that it's
19:48
Speaker 1: shared equitably, and that it's viewed as attainable through genuine
19:52
Speaker 1: hard work. And so we took a step back and said, well,
19:56
Speaker 1: what are the key components of the American dream? And
19:59
Speaker 1: there are things like affordable housing, being able to get
20:02
Speaker 1: a good job, getting access to healthcare, being able to
20:06
Speaker 1: start a business and own a business is a core
20:08
Speaker 1: component of that. And those are all pillars where we
20:11
Speaker 1: are active and we have resources, and we're engaged both
20:14
Speaker 1: economically and in the community. And so we decided to
20:17
Speaker 1: start with small business, with business growth and entrepreneurship, and
20:21
Speaker 1: we've set a few goals. One is, today we have
20:23
Speaker 1: relationships with a little over seven million small businesses. Over
20:26
Speaker 1: the next ten years, we want to serve ten million.
20:29
Speaker 1: Over the next ten years, we want to lend eighty
20:32
Speaker 1: billion dollars to small businesses to help them grow and thrive.
20:36
Speaker 1: We have something called the Coaching for Impact program, which
20:39
Speaker 1: is a free coaching service for small businesses. We've graduated
20:41
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand businesses from that program. We're going to double
20:45
Speaker 1: the size of it, and over the next ten years
20:46
Speaker 1: we want to graduate one hundred and fifteen thousand, So
20:49
Speaker 1: we're really going to go hard there. And then finally,
20:52
Speaker 1: we're going to advocate for policies that small businesses care about.
20:56
Speaker 1: And many of those, by the way, are not in Washington.
20:59
Speaker 1: You know, many of those are at the state and
21:00
Speaker 1: local level. If you think about the ones that really
21:02
Speaker 1: affect you know, the barber doesn't get a license from DC.
21:06
Speaker 1: The barber gets a license from the local town ordinance.
21:09
Speaker 1: And so there are a lot of policies about the
21:11
Speaker 1: state and local level that we think smart reforms can
21:14
Speaker 1: make it easier to do business and can help entrepreneurs
21:17
Speaker 1: succeed while bringing down costs.
21:20
Speaker 2: First of all, I love the initiatives name the American Dream.
21:23
Speaker 2: You know, my family they immigrated from Asia over to
21:26
Speaker 2: the US. Gosh, maybe like forty some years ago. It
21:29
Speaker 2: was for exactly the sentiment. You know, we are trying
21:31
Speaker 2: to achieve the American dream, and it's for what to
21:34
Speaker 2: give themselves and their future children that better future.
21:37
Speaker 1: My family came at the turn of the century with
21:39
Speaker 1: nothing exactly.
21:40
Speaker 2: And that's oftentimes a story, right And to your point,
21:43
Speaker 2: America is a place for folks to do that, for
21:45
Speaker 2: me to even be able to sit here with you
21:47
Speaker 2: and have this amazing conversation. Sure, so I do want
21:50
Speaker 2: to ask a little bit more about the mentorship and
21:52
Speaker 2: the coaching because I think that is such a unique
21:54
Speaker 2: aspect of this program, Like why do you feel like
21:56
Speaker 2: that is just as important the coaching in addition to
22:00
Speaker 2: them also getting access to.
22:01
Speaker 1: Capital, because we see it time and time again, capital
22:04
Speaker 1: isn't enough, particularly in communities that are historically underserved in
22:08
Speaker 1: many ways, that don't have some of the generational assets
22:11
Speaker 1: that wealthier communities have. There are some basics that people
22:14
Speaker 1: you know, if you grow up in a family that
22:16
Speaker 1: owns a successful small business, you know some stuff through osmosis.
22:20
Speaker 1: I mean I talked about what I learned from my
22:21
Speaker 1: dad through osmosis. Everybody learns from their family through osmosis.
22:24
Speaker 1: But if you don't have that in your family, you
22:25
Speaker 1: might not have learned it. And so we see, Look,
22:29
Speaker 1: an entrepreneurship's kind of hot. It's like the thing to
22:31
Speaker 1: do these days, right, like you talk about you know,
22:33
Speaker 1: gen z go buy a business, do your bus. All, yeah,
22:37
Speaker 1: it's the thing. It's yeah, it's sexy now, right, And
22:40
Speaker 1: we're supportive of that, genuinely supportive. But there are some
22:43
Speaker 1: basic things like how to prepare your books properly, how
22:47
Speaker 1: to organize your business, what risks you need to think about,
22:51
Speaker 1: how to grow your customer base, how to get certified
22:54
Speaker 1: to do certain things. There's some basics that some businesses
22:56
Speaker 1: don't know, and so we form this program. We built
22:59
Speaker 1: a really robust curriculum, and we've hired senior business consultants
23:03
Speaker 1: all of the country. Of eighty seven, we'll have one
23:04
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty by the time we grow it fully out.
23:07
Speaker 1: And at any given time they mentor seventy five small
23:09
Speaker 1: businesses and they take them through the curriculum and they
23:11
Speaker 1: become sort of their one on one coach. And by
23:13
Speaker 1: the way, not every business owner finishes the program because
23:16
Speaker 1: it's demanding, and I refuse to back down from that.
23:19
Speaker 1: I'm not going to make it easier so more people
23:21
Speaker 1: can say I finished the program. I'm not interested, because
23:24
Speaker 1: we build a program that we think anyone who runs
23:27
Speaker 1: a business ought to be able to complete, and that
23:29
Speaker 1: we want them to have some skin in the game
23:30
Speaker 1: and show some commitment. But our businesses that finish, we
23:34
Speaker 1: track how they do. We know they have higher revenue,
23:36
Speaker 1: we know they hire more employees, and inevitably they end
23:40
Speaker 1: up mentoring another generation of small businesses because small businesses
23:43
Speaker 1: like to help each other, and so there's a really
23:45
Speaker 1: helpful network effect that develops. And by the way, we
23:49
Speaker 1: don't do it as charity, and I say that unapologetically.
23:52
Speaker 1: You know, we don't charge for it, and we don't
23:54
Speaker 1: make you become a customer. But disproportionately, many of those
23:56
Speaker 1: businesses do become customers and they refer us to other people,
23:59
Speaker 1: and we make more money and that's great, and they
24:01
Speaker 1: make more money, and that's capitalism at its best.
24:05
Speaker 2: I want to pivot now because I want to talk
24:07
Speaker 2: about you as a leader within Chase and the organization.
24:11
Speaker 2: So when you were leading your people, you might encounter
24:15
Speaker 2: someone who is not necessarily performing the way they should,
24:19
Speaker 2: or you know, you see their potential, but they're just
24:21
Speaker 2: not giving.
24:21
Speaker 1: Up that would never happen though, of course not right.
24:24
Speaker 2: How do you typically approach a situation like that.
24:27
Speaker 1: It's a little bit context dependent. I wouldn't say there's
24:30
Speaker 1: a one size fits all. I would say number one.
24:34
Speaker 1: Face into it early is the most important thing. I
24:36
Speaker 1: say this all the time. I fired him too soon,
24:39
Speaker 1: said no one ever. No one's ever said that. It's
24:42
Speaker 1: never happened. And so that doesn't mean everybody should be
24:45
Speaker 1: fired when they make a mistake. That's not my point.
24:47
Speaker 1: My point is if you see someone going off the rails,
24:50
Speaker 1: you know, and if you don't say anything, then you're
24:52
Speaker 1: accommodating it. And if you let it keep going and
24:56
Speaker 1: it's not getting better, or you've given feedback and it's
24:58
Speaker 1: not improving and you're not doing something about it, you
25:00
Speaker 1: know where this is going. You have to be active,
25:03
Speaker 1: active and early is what I tell people all the time.
25:06
Speaker 1: Give the feedback, be vocal, and make decisions. You know,
25:10
Speaker 1: these things don't age well. And by the way, not
25:13
Speaker 1: giving someone feedback when they're doing a poor job is
25:16
Speaker 1: doing them a disservice. Keeping someone in a job that
25:19
Speaker 1: there's no way they can succeed, it is doing them
25:21
Speaker 1: a disservice. I would actually say it's cruel, and I
25:24
Speaker 1: would say ninety nine point nine percent of the people,
25:28
Speaker 1: pretty much every person I can think of where we've
25:30
Speaker 1: had to make a change or things, they've gone on
25:32
Speaker 1: to great things because they found something that was a
25:34
Speaker 1: good fit for them, and so it's much kinder.
25:38
Speaker 2: So then how do you go about motivating your team?
25:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, First of all, I should say I learned from
25:43
Speaker 1: my old boss. There are four letters that really matter
25:46
Speaker 1: when you're in charge, HFPP, higher, fire, promote, and pay.
25:49
Speaker 1: They matter more than everything else. Unless you are a
25:51
Speaker 1: one man band, Every higher, fire, promote, pay decision you
25:55
Speaker 1: make is more important than the business decisions you make
25:58
Speaker 1: because it's an amplified decision. By making that decision, you
26:01
Speaker 1: are empowering that person who's going to make hundreds thousands
26:04
Speaker 1: of decisions, and so it's an amplified decision for sure.
26:08
Speaker 1: In terms of how I inspire and motivate, I would
26:11
Speaker 1: say a few things. One is to set a really
26:13
Speaker 1: clear vision and be consistent about it. What are we
26:16
Speaker 1: trying to achieve? How are we trying to achieve it?
26:19
Speaker 1: What are we going to do? And then the second
26:21
Speaker 1: piece is obviously celebrating. Just celebrate all the good stuff
26:24
Speaker 1: that you cannot celebrate enough. And when you think you've
26:27
Speaker 1: celebrated enough, people don't feel it like celebrate more. You
26:31
Speaker 1: can never ever celebrate too much, as long as it's
26:33
Speaker 1: honest and it really is a win. And then third
26:35
Speaker 1: is what I call the blue pencil test. I came
26:38
Speaker 1: up with this years ago when I got my first real,
26:40
Speaker 1: big leadership job. Somehow in my head I thought, well,
26:43
Speaker 1: I'm in charge now, so when I say something, everyone
26:45
Speaker 1: will understand and hear it and we're good. And that
26:49
Speaker 1: is such a krack of you know what, it's not
26:51
Speaker 1: even funny. So I came up with this idea of like,
26:54
Speaker 1: what if I sold blue pencils, Like that's my job.
26:56
Speaker 1: I'm a blue pencil salesman. And I came to you, Jess,
26:59
Speaker 1: and I said hi, I'm Ben, and I sell blue pencils,
27:02
Speaker 1: and you'd be like, nice to meet you. And if
27:04
Speaker 1: I came back tomorrow and I said hi, Jess, I'm Ben,
27:05
Speaker 1: you'd be like, oh, Hi, who are you. Oh I'm Ben.
27:08
Speaker 1: I sell blue pencils. Oh yeah, that sounds kind of familiar.
27:11
Speaker 1: And I have to do that over and over and
27:13
Speaker 1: over and over again until one day I walk in
27:16
Speaker 1: and I say hi, Jess, and you go, oh, it's
27:18
Speaker 1: that blue pencil guy, right, And only then have you
27:22
Speaker 1: started to break through with your message because we live
27:25
Speaker 1: in this crazy world where everyone's gout phones and like
27:28
Speaker 1: there's messages and there's got their email and their texts
27:31
Speaker 1: and their Instagram and everything. The information overload comes at
27:34
Speaker 1: a rate that our brains were not designed to consume
27:37
Speaker 1: and to process. And so when you are a leader,
27:41
Speaker 1: you set that vision, you set that tone. What matters
27:44
Speaker 1: if you want to inspire people is that they hear you.
27:47
Speaker 1: And if you want them to hear you, you have to
27:48
Speaker 1: repeat it over and over and over again. And if
27:52
Speaker 1: you're not bored of it, they ain't hearing you. Seriously,
27:55
Speaker 1: So repeat, repeat, I think is really important. And then
27:59
Speaker 1: I think finally is reward, and that reward can come in.
28:02
Speaker 1: That was a great job, Jess. Thanks, you really crush that.
28:05
Speaker 1: It doesn't always have to be a big paycheck. Sure,
28:08
Speaker 1: pay matters, but it's not everything. And I want to
28:10
Speaker 1: add one more thing actually, which is empowerment. Nobody wants
28:15
Speaker 1: to work for a boss who doesn't empower them. Nobody
28:18
Speaker 1: wants to go to work and be an automaton, and
28:20
Speaker 1: so make sure that you set a vision, that you
28:23
Speaker 1: repeat it over and over, that you empower your people
28:26
Speaker 1: to achieve it, and by the way, hold them accountable.
28:28
Speaker 1: They want to be held accountable. They really do and
28:31
Speaker 1: celebrate when they do a great job. And if you
28:32
Speaker 1: get a reputation for being that kind of leader, people
28:35
Speaker 1: are going to jump over the fence to work for you.
28:36
Speaker 2: You're note about repeating yourself really resonates with me because
28:40
Speaker 2: I mean, you might not know this, but I also
28:42
Speaker 2: have a book called Smart Not Loud, How to Get
28:44
Speaker 2: noticed at work for all the right reasons, And it's
28:46
Speaker 2: really teaching people how they can communicate their impact if
28:49
Speaker 2: they do find themselves to be more of like the
28:51
Speaker 2: introverted type, right, because you know, it's very hard for
28:54
Speaker 2: a lot of us, more quiet people to communicate. But
28:56
Speaker 2: that's one of the things I tell them. You have
28:58
Speaker 2: to follow up, have to say it over and over again.
29:01
Speaker 2: Research shows it takes someone hearing something three to seven
29:05
Speaker 2: times in order for that message to stick. But a
29:07
Speaker 2: lot of people feel very awkward about having to repeat themselves.
29:10
Speaker 2: And I always say you have to reframe it because oftentimes,
29:13
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's a blue pencil test, they might
29:15
Speaker 2: have just heard one or two words of that whole thing.
29:18
Speaker 1: Right, that's right. And by the way, I think the
29:20
Speaker 1: seven times thing I think is outdated. I think that's
29:22
Speaker 1: a pretty smartphone data point.
29:25
Speaker 2: What do you think it is?
29:25
Speaker 1: I think it's twenty now. I mean, I just think,
29:28
Speaker 1: I really do. I mean I think about the amount
29:30
Speaker 1: of information coming at me all the time. It makes
29:32
Speaker 1: me dizzy.
29:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, are you really understanding and comprehending what's
29:35
Speaker 2: going on when things are moving so fast?
29:37
Speaker 1: Right?
29:38
Speaker 2: So I want to get your approach to hiring. What
29:41
Speaker 2: do you look for? What do you do?
29:43
Speaker 1: So take the basics and just assume them. So does
29:46
Speaker 1: this person have the skills to do the job? Are
29:48
Speaker 1: they right enough to do the job? By the way,
29:50
Speaker 1: not a genius, just bright enough. Do they have the
29:52
Speaker 1: requisite experience and knowledge? I'm just going to take all
29:55
Speaker 1: that as a given. If you don't have that, like,
29:57
Speaker 1: it's probably not so good once you have that. I'm
30:00
Speaker 1: actually only looking for a few things. I'm looking for
30:05
Speaker 1: someone who shows a willingness to understand what they don't
30:09
Speaker 1: know and be willing to learn. I'm looking for someone
30:12
Speaker 1: who is really fun to be around, because we spend
30:15
Speaker 1: a lot of time at work and I don't have
30:17
Speaker 1: any tolerance for someone I just wouldn't want to be around.
30:21
Speaker 1: And I'm looking for someone who wants the job for
30:24
Speaker 1: the right reasons, wants it because of the contribution they
30:28
Speaker 1: can make and the impact they can have, not the
30:30
Speaker 1: title it can give or the money it can pay.
30:33
Speaker 1: And if those things are true, the rest of the
30:35
Speaker 1: book rights itself.
30:36
Speaker 2: How do you determine that in an interviewer too?
30:40
Speaker 1: So I don't put a lot of stock in interviews.
30:43
Speaker 1: I put way more stock in references, and I ask
30:46
Speaker 1: really hard questions in references. I ask for specific examples
30:51
Speaker 1: of how someone behaves and how they demonstrate the things
30:54
Speaker 1: that I'm looking for. I think it's way more important.
30:57
Speaker 1: I think you get way more insight I do the
30:59
Speaker 1: interview thing. I get a feel. And it does matter
31:01
Speaker 1: if you vibe with someone. That is important. You know,
31:03
Speaker 1: all the research shows we make a decision about someone
31:05
Speaker 1: in like thirty seconds or seconds or whatever it is.
31:07
Speaker 2: That's sooner now as that's like two seconds.
31:09
Speaker 1: Now probably, So there's some of that, and you know,
31:13
Speaker 1: Is that fair? Maybe not, but welcome to humanity.
31:16
Speaker 2: So as we start to wrap up here, I want
31:18
Speaker 2: to ask, what's one piece of advice you would give
31:21
Speaker 2: small business owners looking to scale and adapt their leadership style.
31:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good question. So it's a couple
31:28
Speaker 1: of things. One is you start to scale your leadership
31:30
Speaker 1: through your direct reports and your leadership team, so they
31:34
Speaker 1: become a projection of you in a different way. You know,
31:37
Speaker 1: if Jess works for me, I have to inspire Jess
31:39
Speaker 1: to be a great leader to all the people who
31:40
Speaker 1: work for her, and I want her to lead in
31:42
Speaker 1: a style that is authentic to her, but consistent with
31:44
Speaker 1: the values and the way I want the company to operate.
31:47
Speaker 1: That's not an easy thing. That's a tricky thing. So
31:50
Speaker 1: I think that's right. But when you think about operating
31:52
Speaker 1: in a scaled environment, there are a whole bunch of
31:55
Speaker 1: other lessons I could bring to bear. So I'll give
31:57
Speaker 1: you an example. You have to know your blast reading.
32:00
Speaker 1: I say that all the time. When you're working with yourself,
32:04
Speaker 1: you decide the work that's done and doesn't get done.
32:07
Speaker 1: When you're the boss at the company, think about how
32:09
Speaker 1: you could make sort of a flip remark like, oh,
32:11
Speaker 1: we should take a look at this thing, and then
32:13
Speaker 1: a bunch of people go running around and creating all
32:15
Speaker 1: this work that you didn't mean for that to happen.
32:18
Speaker 1: You just asked a question, but they all ran around
32:20
Speaker 1: because the boss said, right, that's your blast radius. It's
32:23
Speaker 1: like every little comment you make has a multiplicative effect
32:27
Speaker 1: on everything you do. I also tell people, as you scale,
32:30
Speaker 1: you have to learn to set the deaf conpone. You
32:32
Speaker 1: look like you're too young to have seen wargames, but
32:34
Speaker 1: there was a movie back in the eighties called Wargames,
32:36
Speaker 1: and they talk about the deaf con, which is defense condition.
32:38
Speaker 1: It's a real thing that the military uses. Defcon five
32:41
Speaker 1: is world piece. Defcon one is we hope we never
32:44
Speaker 1: get there. And you know, in the world, things are
32:46
Speaker 1: rarely as bad as we think, are as good as
32:48
Speaker 1: we think. But we've all worked for a leader who's ah,
32:50
Speaker 1: this is terrible, and everything that happens is a crisis.
32:53
Speaker 1: And you know, if you're always at def Con two,
32:56
Speaker 1: then the place will seize up and you can run
33:00
Speaker 1: your own life that way. But when you start to
33:01
Speaker 1: scale the impact of that becomes enormous. The other thing
33:05
Speaker 1: I tell people is when you start to lead at scale,
33:08
Speaker 1: you have to practice this thing called confident humility. And
33:11
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is this really interesting thing
33:14
Speaker 1: happens as you start to run bigger and bigger businesses.
33:17
Speaker 1: One is you get more confident in your own judgment
33:20
Speaker 1: because you've made more decisions and you've seen more stuff,
33:23
Speaker 1: and you have more context, and you can make decisions
33:25
Speaker 1: with more inputs because you have more experience. Fine, but
33:29
Speaker 1: you've also made more mistakes, and you've also seen that
33:33
Speaker 1: even when you do make a good decision, sometimes it
33:34
Speaker 1: all goes pear shaped, right, So you have to have
33:37
Speaker 1: the humility to know that there's a lot that's not
33:39
Speaker 1: in your control, and even if it is in your control,
33:41
Speaker 1: it might be a car crash you don't know. And
33:44
Speaker 1: so just as you are getting more confident in making
33:46
Speaker 1: your decisions, you're also getting more humble about the fact
33:49
Speaker 1: that the world goes awry a lot. And so I
33:52
Speaker 1: think of it as like the liber scales, and they
33:53
Speaker 1: just keep climbing up on either side of each other.
33:56
Speaker 1: And your job, as you lead at larger and larger
33:59
Speaker 1: scale is to manage that balance right and to think
34:04
Speaker 1: about is this a moment that I need to be
34:05
Speaker 1: confident and back my own judgment, or is this a
34:07
Speaker 1: moment I need to be humble and really be thinking
34:10
Speaker 1: about what the downside could look like. And there's no
34:12
Speaker 1: roadmap for that. Its experience and having the judgment to
34:16
Speaker 1: know which side of the ledger to be on at
34:18
Speaker 1: any given moment is a real skill. Because if you're
34:20
Speaker 1: the CEO who freaks out every time something goes wrong,
34:23
Speaker 1: guess what everyone else is doing. They're all freaking out.
34:26
Speaker 1: And if you're the CEO who every time something goes right,
34:28
Speaker 1: you go, We're good, nothing could go wrong, Well, then
34:31
Speaker 1: they're going to think that and you and I both
34:33
Speaker 1: know the world doesn't work that way. And so keeping
34:35
Speaker 1: your emotions in check and keeping your demeanor professional and
34:40
Speaker 1: calm and measured through those wild swings of outcomes is
34:44
Speaker 1: really important.
34:45
Speaker 2: That just reminds me of like the EQ part of it.
34:47
Speaker 2: And then the last thing you said was the humility part,
34:49
Speaker 2: which I really have to say, you know, having interviewed
34:52
Speaker 2: so many leaders, people who are at the top of
34:54
Speaker 2: their game, that is always a one word that I
34:56
Speaker 2: hear repeatedly, Like, even though you're at this level, it
34:59
Speaker 2: still is so important to go down and be very
35:01
Speaker 2: humble with what it is you know and what you
35:03
Speaker 2: don't know.
35:04
Speaker 1: I make mistakes all the time. I am wrong all
35:07
Speaker 1: the time, and anybody who thinks they're right more than
35:10
Speaker 1: sixty or seventy percent of the time, you're just not. Yeah,
35:13
Speaker 1: or we'd all agree on everything right, So it just
35:15
Speaker 1: can't be.
35:16
Speaker 2: True, right, That just can't be true. So, Ben, as
35:19
Speaker 2: we wrap up here, this is the question we always
35:21
Speaker 2: ask our guests. What does leading by example mean to you?
35:25
Speaker 1: I would say, for me personally, leading by example means
35:30
Speaker 1: being authentic. It means never asking someone to do something
35:35
Speaker 1: that you wouldn't mind if someone asked you to do.
35:38
Speaker 1: It means being values driven ultimately and how you make
35:42
Speaker 1: your decisions, and it means treating everybody with respect.
35:47
Speaker 2: I love that, Ben. Is there anything that we didn't
35:49
Speaker 2: cover today that you wanted to mention?
35:51
Speaker 1: No, I just wanted to say thank you for having me.
35:53
Speaker 1: I love talking about leadership. It's how I spend a
35:55
Speaker 1: lot of my time. I've had a thirty year career
35:57
Speaker 1: of getting to watch and learn from some of the
35:59
Speaker 1: best leaders in the world, and every day I hope
36:02
Speaker 1: I can just make them proud with whatever I get
36:05
Speaker 1: to do, so to be able to talk about it
36:07
Speaker 1: is a real privilege.
36:08
Speaker 2: Thank you so Jena. By the way, I just want
36:09
Speaker 2: to say, I felt like there's so much more that
36:11
Speaker 2: I wanted to go deep on, but I feel you
36:13
Speaker 2: gave people real, great perspective. So thank you so much.
36:16
Speaker 1: Ben, thanks for having.
36:17
Speaker 2: Me another great episode. And I want to thank Ben
36:24
Speaker 2: so much for being on the show with me. As
36:26
Speaker 2: I was listening and reflecting back on our conversation, these
36:29
Speaker 2: were the three points that really stood out to me.
36:32
Speaker 2: The first one was how authenticity at work isn't optional.
36:37
Speaker 2: Ben made the point that humans we are wired almost
36:41
Speaker 2: at a biological level to detect when someone isn't being real,
36:45
Speaker 2: and I think we all know when it's happening right.
36:48
Speaker 2: We've all been in a room when someone is just
36:50
Speaker 2: quote unquote performing instead of being themselves. So the real
36:55
Speaker 2: question is how do you show up in a way
36:57
Speaker 2: that feels right, that feels real. When I was writing
37:01
Speaker 2: my book Smart Not Loud, I made it very important
37:04
Speaker 2: and very clear that leadership and visibility isn't about changing
37:08
Speaker 2: who you are. You can be a beat or calm,
37:12
Speaker 2: charismatic or understated loud or quiet, and all of those
37:17
Speaker 2: are valid leadership styles, but inauthentic. No, that doesn't build trust.
37:23
Speaker 2: In fact, that doesn't move people. And that's what leadership
37:27
Speaker 2: really is, being able to move and inspire people. The
37:31
Speaker 2: second thing that Ben said that really stuck with me
37:34
Speaker 2: was what he called gold dust. Do you remember what
37:37
Speaker 2: he was referring to. Gold dust was feedback and how
37:42
Speaker 2: receiving feedback can be one of the best things you
37:45
Speaker 2: can receive in your leadership journey. And here's what's also
37:49
Speaker 2: quite ironic about it. For a lot of us, getting
37:52
Speaker 2: feedback is hard. Research backs this up. Neuroscientists have found
37:57
Speaker 2: that when we receive critical feedback, our brain can't distinguish
38:02
Speaker 2: between is this helpful or am I being attacked? It
38:06
Speaker 2: almost registers it as a threat, So our instinct is
38:10
Speaker 2: to just defend ourselves. The learning I took away here
38:13
Speaker 2: is this we have to learn how to see that
38:16
Speaker 2: feedback isn't a personal attack on us or our values.
38:20
Speaker 2: It's just a piece of information that can help us
38:23
Speaker 2: do our job better. And I really loved that advice.
38:27
Speaker 2: And here's a third point. It's actually similar to feedback,
38:31
Speaker 2: but it's this you can never fire a person too soon.
38:36
Speaker 2: This was so honest and raw. But really, if you
38:39
Speaker 2: let someone keep working underperforming, you're almost doing them a disservice.
38:45
Speaker 2: You're not helping them in their career for having them
38:48
Speaker 2: just stay on board, because you're also not letting yourself
38:51
Speaker 2: do the work at a level you expect. And it's
38:55
Speaker 2: understandable why firing someone can be hard. It's just like
38:59
Speaker 2: giving fees. People generally want to avoid hard conversations because
39:04
Speaker 2: it feels uncomfortable. But what de Ben say, Once you
39:08
Speaker 2: know something isn't working out, face it early, give that feedback,
39:14
Speaker 2: be clear and direct, and make your decision. Remember being
39:19
Speaker 2: silent that isn't kindness. Silence is just you avoiding and
39:24
Speaker 2: actually tying it back to the beginning. If you can
39:27
Speaker 2: have that tough conversation and do it with sincerity and authenticity,
39:32
Speaker 2: that lands way more. Thank you so much, Ben for
39:37
Speaker 2: this amazing conversation, and thank you so much for joining us.
39:40
Speaker 2: I had a great time, and for all of you listening.
39:43
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, or you have feedback on
39:46
Speaker 2: what you want to hear and guess you'd like to
39:48
Speaker 2: hear from, please rate and review this podcast. Leading by example,
39:53
Speaker 2: every review. Every rating really does help us reach more
39:56
Speaker 2: people and make this show the best it can be.
39:59
Speaker 2: I'm Jessica, the author of Smart Not Loud, How to
40:02
Speaker 2: Get Noticed at Work for all the Right reasons in
40:05
Speaker 2: the CEO of Soulcast Media, a communications training company. For
40:09
Speaker 2: more information about me and what I do, head over
40:12
Speaker 2: to Solcastmedia dot com or add me on LinkedIn and Instagram.
40:17
Speaker 2: A huge thank you to our production team at Ruby Studio,
40:20
Speaker 2: especially Kelly Kyle, Matt Stillo, and Sierra Spring. We'll be
40:24
Speaker 2: back with another episode of Leading by Example. I'll see
40:27
Speaker 2: you then,