Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / A Black Muslim Comic & Gay Jew Walk Into an Uncomfortable Conversation

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A Black Muslim Comic & Gay Jew Walk Into an Uncomfortable Conversation · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

0:02
G'day humans!
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The world's biggest comedy festival is still underway, the Melbourne International Comedy Festival.
0:09
I popped down to Melbourne to undertake a 10-hour sub-stack live-streamed marathon with five extraordinary stand-up comics.
0:19
In today's second thrilling installment of the Uncomfortable Conversations comedy extravaganza,
0:24
Zainab Johnson is a black Muslim female New Yorker with a half million Instagram fans and the title of Variety Magazine's top 10 comics to watch.
0:36
Her Amazon Prime stand up special is called Hijabs Off.
0:41
And she joined me to school me on comedy, Islam and marsupial reproduction.
0:47
Please enjoy the one, the only Zainab Johnson.
0:54
You know, Australia is a pretty far travel.
0:59
And so I had the time a friend was with me and we decided to go up to Sydney for maybe like about 36 hours, which I really enjoyed.
1:08
Yes.
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And then I hopped over to New Zealand.
1:10
Oh, great.
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Where did you go?
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I went to the main island, the big island, the big, what is it called?
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There's the South Island and the North Island, and each of them would claim to be the main one.
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No, there's one that's bigger.
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The South Island is longer, has a larger area,
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and the North Island has more people.
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I went to the North Island.
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Okay.
1:30
To like Auckland, Wellington.
1:31
I went to Auckland, yes.
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That kind of, okay, that's great.
1:35
Zainab Johnson is here, the comedian number two,
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but really numero uno in our hearts.
1:41
Always.
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Of a five-comic extravaganza that we're doing
1:44
for the Melbourne Comedy Festival all day.
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We'll be live streaming on Substack for like nine or ten hours,
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and Zainab's episode will come out on the podcast as well.
1:53
Thank you for coming.
1:55
So New Zealand, we've established that you don't know anything
1:58
about the geography of New Zealand.
1:59
That's fine.
2:00
Why would you?
2:01
Yeah, yeah.
2:02
Totally acceptable.
2:04
You're on the main island of Australia.
2:05
Yes.
2:06
Now.
2:06
Yes.
2:07
This is not Tasmania.
2:08
Yes.
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It's not the Cook Island, the Christmas Island.
2:12
Okay, I didn't even know there was a Christmas Island.
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We've got so many.
2:15
Really?
2:15
It's a very big island.
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This is what I found out.
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I found out that unlike us in the U.S., there's nothing in the middle of your country.
2:22
There's nothing.
2:23
Yeah, what's that about?
2:24
Build something.
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Get an Ikea.
2:26
Yeah.
2:27
I mean, if you talk to people in New York and Los Angeles, they also think there's nothing in the middle of America.
2:32
But there are people.
2:33
You know what?
2:34
There are people.
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There's people who watch network television.
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They're important.
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Those are the people who are the consumers.
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Right.
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Yes.
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They buy things.
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They vote as well, apparently.
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They vote.
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Apparently, yes.
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Yeah, they have a lot of power.
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We fly over them every day.
2:48
It is a problem for my friends in New York and California that they...
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Yeah, we're coastal elitists, they say.
2:55
Yes, yes.
2:55
You know, and the people in the middle, you know, are like, well, we got the power.
3:00
Do you remember the episode of 30 Rock where Tina Fey and Alec are going...
3:06
They have to drive to, like, some place that's not very far out of New York,
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but, like, they have to go to somewhere in, like, Jersey or something.
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And Alec Baldwin is terrified because they're leaving the cocoon of the East Coast.
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and Tina Fey's really excited
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because she's going to get out
3:20
to see the real America
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like the real
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heartland America
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and they end up
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in like some barn
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with a whole bunch of hicks
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and like chickens
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and things
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and she flees back
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to Manhattan
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as quickly as she can
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and Alec Baldwin's like
3:31
I told you so
3:34
I've seen every episode
3:35
of 30 Rock
3:36
I cannot remember
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that episode
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but even still
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I can understand
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you know
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imagine how
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yes
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how that goes
3:44
so where did you
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you grew up in
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in New York
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Yeah, Manhattan specifically.
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Right.
3:48
I grew up in Harlem.
3:49
In Harlem.
3:49
Yeah.
3:50
Amazing.
3:50
Harlem.
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Sorry.
3:51
With a bazillion different, Harlem.
3:54
That sounds like the hick with the chickens, doesn't it?
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Like, wow, you grew up in Harlem.
3:59
How exotic.
4:01
With a thousand siblings?
4:03
Close to it, yeah.
4:04
I had 12 siblings.
4:06
You had 12 siblings?
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12 siblings, 13 of us all together.
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And you were what order?
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I'm fifth from the top, yeah.
4:11
Okay, right.
4:12
So I'm like the oldest of the middle group.
4:14
Amazing.
4:15
Yeah.
4:15
Yeah.
4:16
Why did your parents have so many kids?
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I think because they,
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that was under duress, actually.
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My mom, I believe that she wanted,
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I think that they really valued family
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and my mom wanted to be the mother
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of a very large group.
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And my great, I think my great
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or great-great-grandmother had 20.
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And so my mom was inspired by that.
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So her goal, her goal was 20.
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she made it to 13 which is like a feat for most people but i think my mom is somewhere like yeah
4:51
my mom's like i didn't quite get it done 20 how do you even i mean logistically like between
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adulthood and menopause yeah you're really i mean you're just you're keeping up the pace there
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so my first sister my mom had her when she was 20 years old my mom got married at 19
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the first kid came at 20 and the last kid came at either 44 or 46 i believe 46 huh yeah but what's
5:21
so funny is that they say that the longer you have kids or the more kids that you have as a woman
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it puts off your menopause age oh is that right i mean i you know i don't know they say yeah this
5:32
is one of those yeah i read it on the internet kind of things right i don't even i didn't even
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read on the internet um but i remember when my mom was going through menopause and this was before
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peri i think this is before we knew that there was like a pre-menopause right right right um so
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she was going through menopause and she didn't know and she was like 60 something like well
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into like she should have been going through but she had spent her entire life just avoiding it
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you know she's squirting out babies all over the place she's like i can just pray if you post so
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if you kept having babies and you kept postponing menopause the body's like you could postpone
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death, I think we've just solved
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longevity.
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We've
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solved death.
6:11
Yeah, you just gotta
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keep having babies.
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You know what I found out?
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I went to a sanctuary
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yesterday.
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You mean like a
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wildlife sanctuary?
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Yeah, a wildlife sanctuary.
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I don't know.
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It could be full of refugees
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or something.
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What's a sanctuary?
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Okay, you went to a wildlife reserve.
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I went to a
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wildlife... You wanted to hug a koala.
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You can't hug koalas.
6:31
Well, I think you can't.
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Is that a state thing?
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I think maybe
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in my state you can and sydney you can pretty sure yeah you can pay you have to pay extra you
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can pay at the sydney uh i think the zoo i think it's called wildlife zoo in darling harbor i think
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you pay them 50 bucks you get to hold a koala well we we paid for the koala experience and let me tell
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you i think it's a scam you got ripped off we got ripped off yeah the koala her name is maple she
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was asleep the whole time let me guess yeah yeah she was asleep i'm like why they gotta sleep so
7:02
much yeah and they were like well because they eat all the eucalyptus and they're getting high
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off of it yes and i'm like well feed them a banana give them some steak get them some potassium
7:14
yeah that's right she was like behind the leaves and stuff we couldn't even get a good picture
7:18
anyway but what i found out about kangaroos is that they can pause their pregnancy did you know
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that no tell me more so my marsupial your marsupial yeah they um so they have that so
7:32
So basically, it takes them 30 days to have a baby, right?
7:35
And the baby comes out.
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It's like the size of our fingernail.
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It's like a little worm.
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Yeah, it's like a little worm.
7:41
And they have these four quadrants of tits in their pouch.
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Is that the technical part?
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It's not.
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And each quadrant serves another, you know, like it's like, oh, they need nutrients here.
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This next quadrant is like protein.
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This next quadrant is like.
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And so if they have another baby, if they know that they're going to get pregnant, right, they can pause because it's like it has to go through cycles.
8:04
You sound so professorial right now.
8:06
But is the source of this information the same as the source of like maybe women live forever if they just keep having babies?
8:14
No, this is accurate information.
8:15
Okay, great.
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This is matter of fact.
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All right.
8:18
I got this one.
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It's not a YouTube video.
8:19
No, this is zoology.
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Okay, great.
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This was a guy wearing like a brown zookeeper's outfit.
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Yeah, it was a girl, actually.
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Okay, great.
8:27
Yeah.
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Even better.
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Yes.
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Even more reliable.
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It was amazing to know that they can pause their pregnancy.
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And sorry, I interrupted you.
8:35
So there are four quadrants.
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Are these physical quadrants inside the pouch,
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or are these the stages of the evolution?
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No, physical quadrants, because they're a different nipple.
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I don't know if it's called the nipple on a kangaroo,
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but it's a different tit.
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Well, nipple is better than tit, I think.
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I mean, it's probably more zoologically precise.
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And so here's the thing.
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You have to be on a certain tit for like three to six months.
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Well, you can say nipple as well.
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Yeah.
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And so if another baby comes in 30 days, it messes up the cycle of how that first baby is developing.
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It's like, you know what?
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It made me realize, ain't no kangaroo twins.
9:08
Right.
9:10
What if two little red-pink worms come out at the same time?
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It's not going to happen.
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It doesn't happen.
9:14
No.
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Because there's no tit for them.
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No, the mother says, pause.
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Even if they try, the mother says, no.
9:19
Right.
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And two can't happen at the same time.
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I've got to put you on hold.
9:22
Now, I'm just wondering, is there a word that is teat and also a word that is tit?
9:28
Or are we saying tit like as in like a titty?
9:33
I'm talking about a titty.
9:35
A titty, yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think that I just, I wouldn't normally say tits.
9:39
Yeah.
9:39
But I just said teat because it makes it sound more scientific.
9:42
But I think a teat is also a thing, isn't it?
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It might be, but.
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I think that's a, I'm going to look up what a teat is.
9:49
A teat is?
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What is a, hang on, let's do this, okay?
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I'll get ChatGPT to answer this.
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I want to know what the difference is.
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They said a teat is.
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Yeah, exactly.
10:01
Let's see here.
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Hang on.
10:05
What is the difference between a teat and a nipple and a titty?
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All right, let's break it down plainly.
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Teat is a more formal or technical term often used for animals,
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referring to the part that produces milk.
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Nipple is the anatomical term for the small projection
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on the chest.
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Humans have them regardless of gender.
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Diddy is slang for a breast, colloquial,
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informal, and often used casually or humorously.
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So they refer to different levels of formality
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and contexts.
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So could a kangaroo have a titty and also a teat?
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Technically speaking, yes,
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sort of.
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A kangaroo has teats inside its pouch, which the joey latches onto for milk.
10:44
but titty is really human slang for a breast and doesn't fit the biology or context okay thank you
10:49
chat gpt i think we've heard enough from you today there you go okay so kangaroo here's the thing
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yeah i know what i'm talking about you do i doubt i can't believe i doubted you i was like i'm
10:59
australian i'm a guy like i'm sure i know more most people harlem what she know about kangaroos
11:05
most people go to the wildlife sanctuary to get a picture i go for educational purposes only
11:14
that's interesting so as the thing goes around the pouch it's also amazing that like the pouch
11:19
i didn't i thought the pouch when i was little there was just a place for like the joey to hang
11:23
out yeah it was like you know just like it's she's just you know wants to hang out in there and like
11:27
it can't run as fast as mom no but it's actually a womb it's a womb it's a womb and you can't be
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shy it's a womb let's say it again it's a womb it's a womb it's a womb and you can't be shoving
11:41
an extra baby just as you wouldn't into a womb like once there's one in there yeah we're taken
11:47
yeah it's the reserved sign it's like this meter nobody puts two hands in a pocket nobody puts two
11:53
hands in a pocket yeah right okay yeah that's right have you ever put one hand in a pocket
12:00
and then another another hand in a pocket no no you find a new pocket find a new pocket exactly
12:05
that's right this is not rocket science so as well as being a fun experience coming to australia
12:10
This is like a life-building and character-building education for you.
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I'm a hands-on learner, I've realized that.
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I realize I should have never done school in a building with books.
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It should have all been...
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In the Australian outback.
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It should have all been just out in the field, tack-tied.
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Were you good at school?
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I was.
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That's the thing, but I could have been better.
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And you were an athlete as well?
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I was.
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I played basketball for some time.
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Right.
12:37
Loved that?
12:38
It was lovely.
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I think every person should play team sports.
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It's good for socializing.
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It's good for understanding wins and losses.
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It's good perspective.
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I'm not good at team sports because there's no I in team.
12:53
I was just always like, why are these people here?
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Then you're probably not liked by very many people.
12:59
Right.
13:00
It's a very good analysis.
13:01
Good analysis of my character.
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It teaches you how to.
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I think it builds good character.
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I'm sure it does.
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I should have been.
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I should have had my ass whipped by some sport colleagues.
13:10
What sport did you play?
13:11
You seem tall.
13:12
I didn't really play sport.
13:13
I swam.
13:14
Oh, you swam.
13:15
Okay.
13:15
Yeah.
13:16
Independent.
13:16
You in the water.
13:16
Exactly.
13:17
I just wanted to be out there alone.
13:19
But how about relay swimming?
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Yeah, that's all right.
13:23
That's kind of like a...
13:24
Yeah.
13:24
It's still a team.
13:25
Yes.
13:26
But then someone else can't let me down and I can't let another person down in the moment.
13:32
I can't look at you and then pass a ball and then you fumble it or vice versa.
13:36
Well, maybe not.
13:37
But I mean, I could swim and I could make a certain time and then I could pass it off to you, right?
13:43
I'm not averse to competitive competition.
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I just wasn't very, I think I just never got into, I was a nerd as well.
13:51
So I was a very wordy kid.
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So I wasn't like, rah, rah, rah, we're all going to get sweaty together and like be all in a, you know, it was too much.
14:02
Jingoism.
14:03
That's what it felt like.
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Are you an only child?
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No, I'm a baby.
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I'm the baby of two.
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Okay, okay, okay.
14:09
Yeah.
14:09
Okay.
14:10
But also had very esoteric creative parents who were actors and bohemians who were like, you know, pretty hippy-dippy, loving people.
14:19
It was not a, we didn't all sit around the TV like turning on the sports and rah-rah-rah-ing for our team.
14:25
But I don't even think you needed that for a team.
14:27
Like even when you say that you're a nerd, like there's math, you know, you go and you do.
14:30
Yes.
14:31
I did that.
14:32
I was in debating club.
14:33
Yeah, I'm just talking about the team aspect of it.
14:36
I forget the activity.
14:37
Yes.
14:37
No, I was in improv comedy.
14:39
Yeah.
14:39
I was in debating, all that stuff.
14:41
There is something to being responsible to the group.
14:46
Yes.
14:47
You know, that I think builds a certain type of, like, character and integrity that's important in terms of functioning amongst the public.
14:56
Yes.
14:57
You know?
14:57
Is stand-up that or is stand-up solitary?
15:01
Stand-up is definitely solo, you know?
15:04
um but i i yeah it's definitely solo you know but i think it takes place in the context of
15:11
quite a tight-knit community as well yeah yeah absolutely and also too i'm very reliant on the
15:16
audience it's like i can't do it without them you know if that that's just like that's just
15:21
like a set i mean that's almost like a mental health crisis yeah right yeah if i'm just standing
15:28
talking in a room with no one and need no response you know so i didn't think about that in terms of
15:35
like stand up and and also acting that it's it's hard in a way because like the writer or the
15:42
painter or the podcaster can do their stuff regardless of whether there's anyone there or
15:48
anyone paying them like yeah mid-pandemic whatever it is you're doing like you can still get you can
15:53
still paint a painting yeah but you can't do your stand-up you actually need the people in the room
15:57
You need an audience.
15:59
Yeah, you need an audience.
16:01
And if you want to create your audience, you can have an imaginary audience, you know, but again, that's... Yeah.
16:09
It's a call and response.
16:10
Yes.
16:11
And the call is a punchline.
16:12
The response is hopefully laughter.
16:14
Right.
16:15
Where I think if we use a painter, a painter, I think paints for them.
16:19
A painter is is trying to express themselves.
16:24
And and then whatever happens that is after that is just like maybe icing on the cake.
16:29
Right.
16:29
If somebody sees it, maybe enjoys it and even decides to purchase it and then hang it and celebrate.
16:35
Yes.
16:36
That's all like that's all.
16:38
It's separate.
16:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:39
Separate from the actual laugh.
16:40
Yeah.
16:41
That's interesting.
16:42
I mean, you said that the offering is the joke
16:46
and then the response is laughter.
16:48
Yeah.
16:49
Is it always laughter?
16:51
Is laughter the only metric for you?
16:54
No, but it should be the most important metric
17:00
when it comes to comedy.
17:01
Yeah.
17:02
You know, this is not a TED Talk.
17:03
This is not a lecture.
17:05
This is comedy.
17:06
Because I remember I went to the HBO, the Aspen Comedy Festival one year.
17:12
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:13
And word got around that Chappelle was doing a set in one of the rooms.
17:17
So we all crowded in and it was late.
17:19
And he was like, three and a half hours later, he's still there and everybody.
17:23
And it was silent.
17:24
You could hear a pin drop as he's just like philosophizing.
17:27
Up into those shows.
17:27
Right.
17:28
And he's like, at one point he was just like, I've lost you all, haven't I?
17:32
And someone shouted out, we're wrapped.
17:35
uh you know and he was like what he was like like we're we're speechless we're we're wrapped and
17:42
he was like oh that's that's good and that stuck with me because i was like he was right like that
17:46
that it was an electrifying place to be yeah but it was no laughter it was like he was yeah but
17:52
it's only built on his um consistent uh exceptional ability to have made you laugh
18:01
you only go to see
18:02
Chappelle not make you laugh
18:04
because he has superbly
18:06
made you laugh
18:09
for so long
18:10
you know if you saw me
18:12
for the first time
18:14
and there was no laughter
18:16
you might be confused
18:18
I don't think that was a comedy show
18:20
yeah she may have been thought provoking
18:22
but my expectation was
18:24
to laugh
18:25
I think the expectation now
18:28
from Chappelle is
18:29
anything we'll take anything from you yes we'll take anything that you give us we are peasants
18:34
in your world yeah and we trust you but i mean yeah we trust you yeah yeah but it's because
18:39
you've managed to uh uh make a lot of things that you know are really philosophy you've managed to
18:48
um be a philosopher by way of humor right and so now if ever if ever you philosophize is that a
18:57
and you aren't humorous, we allow you that because your track record has earned you.
19:03
Yeah, you've earned it.
19:05
But yeah, no, I'm not.
19:06
I mean, there is, though, a style also of new comedy.
19:10
It's less prevalent now, but I think it was more prevalent during, I guess,
19:14
the social justice reckoning of like 2018 to 2023 where people would do the TED Talk type show.
19:21
Yeah, you had a big show.
19:22
There were a lot of very celebrated shows.
19:24
Oh, the biggest one was Hannah Gadsby.
19:26
Yeah, exactly.
19:26
You can say it.
19:28
You know, there'd be like five real laughs in an 80 minute show.
19:32
Yeah.
19:32
And the rest is like, oh, isn't it profound?
19:34
Like how this person is like, you know, making a commentary about culture and society.
19:40
I just wonder where that fits into the whole mosaic of comedy.
19:44
I mean, I think it's evolving, but it's like comedy is tragedy plus time equals humor.
19:50
Right.
19:51
It's like you don't have comedy if you don't, if you're not laughing.
19:54
You just don't.
19:55
you know, and you can decide how much laughter something has to have.
20:01
I remember when I first got into comedy, somebody said, pay attention to Seinfeld.
20:07
He does like a certain amount of laughs per minute.
20:10
And I'm like, you just made it unfun.
20:13
You know, like this is math.
20:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:17
But I think also a lot of the world was unfamiliar with Hannah Gadsby,
20:23
if we speak about her specifically.
20:25
and I think she talks about this very openly
20:30
the disservice that Netflix did to her
20:33
by calling her special a comedy special
20:36
because most of the world
20:38
or a stand-up special
20:39
because most of the world at that time
20:42
didn't view
20:43
that wasn't what stand-up was
20:47
and so it got a lot of backlash
20:51
because everybody couldn't receive it as stand-up
20:54
But if they would have marketed it in the way that it was toured.
21:00
Right.
21:02
Which was a one-woman comedy show.
21:05
Which was a one-woman show from a comedian who was ready to depart from stand-up.
21:13
You know?
21:14
Yeah.
21:15
And so, yeah.
21:16
That's interesting.
21:17
How do you wrestle with your desire to make a point?
21:22
I go up and down.
21:24
Oh, I go up and down.
21:25
It's like at one moment in the show, I'm like, hmm.
21:28
In another moment, it's just it's it's it's high laughter.
21:32
You know, I like that.
21:33
I like sort of like, you know, walking the line between tension and like silliness.
21:40
I think it's really fun.
21:41
And I think that there's I think that there's space for both.
21:45
I think that I want to, I'm going to try to trick you into laughing every single time.
21:52
And then I think there's some moments where I want you, I want it to land and I don't want it to be funny.
22:01
And I need it to land that way.
22:03
But for sure, just know right after it lands, I'm coming with a joke.
22:09
You know?
22:10
Yeah.
22:10
Is it easier or harder to make those quiet points or like those non-laugh points when everything feels like it's going to shit a bit?
22:20
Like, I mean, at the moment, I think I assume there's quite a lot that one could criticize about the state of America.
22:27
And...
22:29
And I think that that's also the misconception
22:31
that every serious moment has to be directly tied
22:34
to, like, politics or, like, geopolitics.
22:37
You know, it's like, sometimes I can make a really...
22:41
I can be really poignant just talking about family,
22:43
and that has nothing to do with the political state.
22:46
No, but I've seen you address, you know,
22:48
on stage Minneapolis and ice and like...
22:50
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:51
You've seen my social media clips.
22:52
Yeah, exactly.
22:53
All the shit that's going on in the...
22:55
But then if you see my first special,
22:57
which was her Jabs Off, there's a very quiet moment
23:00
about my desire to be a good comedian.
23:03
There's a very quiet moment about me being kidnapped
23:07
as a small child, you know?
23:09
It's very, very quiet.
23:11
And then, I mean, and it's...
23:14
Nobody knows that that's coming in the show.
23:16
It's like a hard laugh.
23:18
And they're like,
23:19
wait, what?
23:19
We were just having a good time.
23:20
How dare you?
23:22
How dare you make us laugh so hard
23:24
and then drop that line, you know?
23:26
You know, and that has nothing to do.
23:28
I mean, kids have been and will be kidnapped.
23:34
That your president does not, you know, that doesn't that doesn't change with your president.
23:40
No, no.
23:40
Yeah.
23:41
This is a part of the president is doing the kidnapping.
23:43
Yeah.
23:45
This is a hard reality of just the human existence.
23:48
Yeah.
23:48
Yeah.
23:49
You know.
23:49
Yeah.
23:50
And so.
23:50
Yeah.
23:51
And I let that.
23:52
Yeah.
23:52
And then and then I address it.
23:53
I know exactly what you're thinking.
23:55
who that took a that took a turn right and they're like oh yeah okay she's she knows what she's doing
24:01
yeah yeah and how do you workshop that when you're doing i mean assume the normal way that you might
24:06
build a uh a special is doing eight minute sets of you know clubs and so on how do you weave a
24:13
lengthy heavy yeah piece into a special you go on you go on stage when you only have 10 minutes at
24:20
at a comedy club and everybody's making them laugh, and you go,
24:23
um, so I got kidnapped.
24:25
And then the audience goes,
24:27
what the fuck is happening?
24:29
You know, what's this about to be?
24:30
And you rough it out.
24:32
And sometimes you spend ten minutes at a time,
24:34
fifteen minutes at a time, not funny.
24:36
You find one laugh in that, and you do it over and over
24:40
and over again until you figure it out.
24:42
That's stand-up.
24:44
I was doing a show a couple of months ago
24:46
at the Comedy Store in Los Angeles.
24:48
And this guy, I'm sure he calls himself a comedian.
24:54
I have never seen him perform.
24:55
But he felt, um, he felt bold enough to, like,
25:01
tell me how to tell a joke of mine, right?
25:03
He's like, it would be funnier if you do it this way.
25:07
And I listened, right?
25:08
Meaning, like, I heard him out, right?
25:11
And I considered it and I was like,
25:14
but no, that's not what I'm saying.
25:16
Like, I know that you think that that's funny,
25:17
but that's actually not my experience,
25:20
nor is it what I'm saying, right?
25:22
And he's like, but no, don't trust me.
25:24
And then I'm like, I said thank you, but no, right?
25:26
Then he goes to another comedian, a guy in a room,
25:29
and pitches him the bit.
25:30
And the guy, I guess, laughs, and he's like, see?
25:34
Even as if some other guy's opinion is gonna validate,
25:36
you know, if that makes it more powerful for me, right?
25:39
Now, what he, this is what I know about comedians.
25:42
The comedian laughed and immediately got up and left,
25:44
which means that was a fake laugh, right?
25:47
And so fast forward, this was...
25:49
So even if one person laughs, like, good for you, buddy.
25:51
Exactly.
25:52
Humor is subjective, right?
25:55
Um, but so I go on stage at the comedy store some weeks later,
25:59
and I try out this version of the joke
26:01
that this guy tells me, and it bombs.
26:04
Of course it bombs.
26:04
I knew it would bomb when he told me.
26:06
Uh, and so it bombs, and I say to the audience,
26:09
I said...
26:10
I tell them the story,
26:12
I'm like, this guy told me to say that,
26:13
and it bombed, I knew it would bomb,
26:16
and it bombed and I'm so happy it bombed.
26:18
So now I can go back and tell him
26:20
with absolute confirmation that he sucks, right?
26:24
And when I said it bombed,
26:27
a group in the audience were like,
26:28
oh, right?
26:31
And I said, wait, wait, wait.
26:32
Don't feel bad about a bomb.
26:34
Bombing is a part of comedy.
26:36
I have to fail for it to be good.
26:39
Nobody gets up on stage and it's like,
26:41
every so often we say something
26:42
and the first time it's funny,
26:44
funny but usually what happens when it's funny the first time when we try to recreate it we can't
26:49
get it funny again we have to fail in order to succeed yeah and we gotta fail in front of an
26:54
audience it just is what it is so i can where's the cameras at i can apologize i can apologize
27:00
for all the people that have to see me fail for all the other people to see me succeed yeah
27:05
you know yeah yeah that's interesting isn't it i mean that guy so did he even ask your permission
27:10
before no no no he didn't okay yeah okay i mean it's interesting i'm sometimes sensitive about
27:15
whether they give colleagues yeah feedback right but i will always ask permission but if i can see
27:20
something that someone is doing i will say like uh would you be interested in hearing like my take
27:27
about about because sometimes you can see that there's just there's a structural thing whether
27:32
it's in an article that's being written or in a gag or something you're like if they just put that
27:36
bit there oh then it would be stronger like i said i listened to consider it yeah i'm saying
27:42
yeah but you don't even have to that doesn't even have to be like professionally sometimes
27:45
my friends call me and they just need to vent and i'm like okay can i offer some you know i still
27:50
say it i don't say well you should do this i say yeah okay so i have a bit of unsolicited advice
27:55
are you do you just want to vent or can i it's such a good trick in a conversation i talk about
28:00
having like a meta conversation meaning a conversation about the conversation about the
28:05
where you're like, you know, if someone does call you to vent and it's your friend,
28:08
like sometimes it is useful just to say, how can I best be useful in this conversation?
28:15
Like, do you want me to just be an open, like, do you just want me to listen and say nice things?
28:22
Because that's totally fine.
28:24
Do you want me to, like, coach you through this?
28:27
Do you want me to be pushed back?
28:29
Because I could go either way.
28:30
I can do everything.
28:31
Yeah, in this particular instance.
28:33
It's nothing wrong with having a conversation
28:35
about the conversation.
28:36
There's nothing wrong with that, you know?
28:38
But I've also learned that because I'm a person sometimes
28:42
that I think if you have a hyper awareness of how you are,
28:47
it really helps you navigate how other people are.
28:50
Because I am very aware when I just need to vent to my friend,
28:55
when I really need the truth,
28:57
when I need a battery in my back, you know what I'm saying?
29:01
I'm saying when I just need to be lifted up.
29:03
I'm aware of all of those things.
29:04
Because you don't have to know how you're aware of it.
29:07
You call who you, when you need the truth,
29:09
you call who's going to tell you the truth.
29:10
When you need to be, you know, just sort of like pacified,
29:14
you call the person who's going to.
29:16
And so because I know that about myself,
29:18
I know that I can offer that option to people.
29:22
That does require a certain amount of insight about yourself
29:24
to learn that, I think.
29:25
Because sometimes people are mistaken
29:27
about what it is that they want.
29:29
Like, you know, this is a classic in a relationship, right, where, you know, the two partners aren't, you know, the person thinks that what they want is an honest conversation.
29:41
But what they actually want is reinforcement and to feel loved.
29:45
And the other person gives them the honest conversation, which makes the person feel unloved because they didn't want tough love at that point.
29:51
You know, and as you say, you need to know, you need to have the self-awareness to be able to understand what it is that you need.
29:57
often it often it's it isn't obvious to people that what they want is just reinforcement and
30:03
yeah love and connection and sometimes i do both right sometimes i'm like can i are you do you just
30:09
want to talk because i can totally be just i can listen to you but you're like no no i mean i want
30:12
to hear what you think about it and i'm like okay well you know i love you and i think that and
30:20
and lift you lift you lift you lift you lift you yes you know but if i weren't if i were giving
30:24
tough love right so it's the way you present it that you so that they hear it all yeah they get
30:30
everything that they need you hope that they take it but it's i don't think there's anything wrong
30:35
with like you know as you said having a meta conversation yes and so i like the idea of
30:41
putting a shit sandwich together where the constructive criticism is wedged between like
30:45
you know love anyway i need to learn to do better oh i'm so good at it i'm just i just
30:51
I'm very aspie in terms of like, I'll just get to the point, you know, it's like, you know,
30:55
why do we have to worry about all this bullshit about like, you know, you're wonderful.
31:00
I love
31:01
you.
31:01
I value you.
31:02
I love you.
31:03
And I, okay.
31:03
Yeah.
31:04
Let's take all that as a given.
31:05
Of course we're
31:05
friends.
31:05
No, no, no.
31:06
It's, but it's not a given.
31:08
It's not a given.
31:09
We are our worst critics and we
31:11
are abusive to ourselves and we need, we need to be affirmed and we need to be validated and,
31:20
And sometimes that is even hard to ask for from the people who you know will do it to you and for you forever.
31:28
You know?
31:29
And so, yeah, you got to just do it.
31:32
I feel like you could do a TED Talk.
31:34
You don't just have to do the stand-up.
31:36
If stand-up falls through, we've got an Oprah-style TED Talk right here, ladies and gents.
31:40
That's where I want to end up, actually.
31:42
Not a TED Talk, but at the end of all of this, I just want a couch and a show.
31:45
A talk show.
31:46
Oh, back in the day, before all the, you know, when people still, when people in those flyover states were still sitting at home watching television all day, maybe some of them still do.
31:57
But when like you could still sustain.
31:59
Yeah, like when people put on Donahue.
32:02
Yes, Donahue.
32:03
Yeah, that was a little bit before me, but I know the reference.
32:07
He pioneered that genre of running into the audience with a microphone and talking to the audience.
32:14
But, you know, things are cyclical.
32:17
So it could.
32:17
Yeah, but people aren't going to go back to watching television, are they?
32:20
We don't know.
32:20
We went back to doing a lot of stuff when we were in a global pandemic.
32:24
We revisited a lot of things that we had left behind.
32:28
We also accepted some really new things.
32:30
Well, yes, you're right.
32:31
People will get the content that they want to get.
32:35
I just don't think it'll be delivered by NBC, ABC, and CBS.
32:38
Yeah, it might not be delivered in the same way.
32:40
But it was just cool when Oprah and Ellen could just hang out on television
32:44
television and have an automatic 50 million people watching them and paying them their
32:50
salaries uh we're doing this live stream all day by the way i'm just in case people are
32:54
tuning in uh zainab johnson is with us uh dave hughes was here before we have a whole with five
32:59
different comics coming in and out throughout the day uh and uh so nine or ten hours of live
33:05
streaming it's going to be great um so what did you want to do when you were little did you want
33:10
to do be oprah or did you want to be like what was your thing we and we never watched oprah in
33:16
my house for some reason i asked my mom about that when i was older i was like why didn't we
33:20
watch oprah and she was like if it i grew up in a very pro-black house though like it was like if
33:26
it wasn't a spiky joint we wasn't seeing it like i'm telling you my oprah wasn't black enough for
33:31
you oprah was too white no my mom was like listen we put you we putting on a color purple oh that
33:37
Yeah, Oprah in it.
33:37
That's how we watch Oprah.
33:38
We watch The Color Purple.
33:40
We watch, you know, Crooklyn do the right thing.
33:42
Like that's what my parents.
33:44
And we didn't watch that much TV.
33:45
Like we didn't watch TV on weekdays.
33:48
We didn't, you know, like TV was a privilege in my house.
33:51
And it was one TV and it's so many people.
33:54
So even if I did want to watch Oprah, it's like she got to get the votes.
33:57
You got 12 siblings.
33:58
Yeah, right.
33:59
Everyone wants to watch Transformers.
34:00
Yeah.
34:00
It's like, it's more boys.
34:02
It's like people was watching Star Trek.
34:05
It's like, nah.
34:06
Um, I, um, I thought that I would be a math teacher.
34:09
Okay.
34:11
Um, I thought for a long time that I would be a teacher.
34:14
I think that was the height of my aspiration.
34:18
And I think that at some point,
34:20
I really, acting appealed to me,
34:22
but acting didn't appeal to me like the art of theater, you know?
34:27
Like, it didn't appeal to me from the lens of like,
34:30
Like, I'm just a, I'm a artist.
34:33
I shall be a thespian.
34:34
Yeah, like I need to live in it.
34:36
But it appealed to me in the way that I was like, what about the person that wants to do everything in life?
34:42
Who gets to be the lawyer, the astronaut, the mom, the teacher, the entrepreneur, the athlete?
34:51
Who gets to do everything?
34:53
Oh, the actor.
34:55
And that was the way it appealed to me.
34:58
Got it.
34:58
That you get to sort of, in a way, explore so many different life trajectories, you know, where most of us just have to pick a path.
35:10
Yeah, yeah.
35:11
You know?
35:12
So did you go to school?
35:13
Yeah, I did go to school.
35:14
Yeah.
35:14
Oh, no.
35:16
Not really, actually.
35:17
I went to school for math.
35:18
Right.
35:18
I went to school for math and education.
35:20
You were in there.
35:21
Yeah, no, that was, yeah, my degree is in education and math.
35:23
Yeah, right.
35:24
I thought that I would be a teacher.
35:25
Right.
35:25
um and then i remember when i first moved to la i did i did a summer um what is it called i did a
35:33
summer intensive at rata uh-huh in the uk yes and that was yeah the royal academy of dramatic arts
35:40
yeah very fancy um and that was a nice that was a really nice experience yeah right yeah and then
35:46
you ended up doing the improv uh scene in la did you then i ended up doing standard and ground
35:52
Yeah, yes, yes, yes.
35:53
I did, what did I do first?
35:56
I did Groundlings first.
35:58
And then I only did one level of Groundlings.
36:03
And then I did, did I do UCB or did I?
36:06
I did UCB actually.
36:07
I did UCB, which I found to be a bit more enjoyable.
36:11
It was a little bit more free.
36:13
Yeah, yeah.
36:14
Felt a little bit less racist.
36:18
Oh, really?
36:19
I have no experience with Groundlings.
36:21
only with UCB, but that's interesting.
36:23
It felt, I shouldn't say racist,
36:25
that's a little bit more charged,
36:28
but it felt a bit more diverse.
36:30
That's a better way to say it.
36:32
It felt a bit more diverse, definitely,
36:34
at the time that I did it.
36:36
Yeah, it can be a bit of a
36:37
cliquey place, can't it?
36:39
Now that you mention
36:40
that, there's a certain sort of
36:42
white
36:44
nerd boy improv
36:46
archetype.
36:47
I even remember
36:50
in my Groundlings class, and this may not have anything
36:53
to do with Groundlings, because I do remember liking my teacher.
36:57
And I've been to, I've had friends who have been in Groundlings,
37:00
like, you know, Sunday Company and stuff like that.
37:02
And so I've been to a bunch of shows and have very much enjoyed them.
37:05
But I do remember in one of my classes,
37:11
you know, like we're improvising,
37:13
and I remember one of the other students made something very racial.
37:17
I was the only Black person.
37:20
I was the only person of color, you know,
37:23
in this particular...
37:24
It's like a class of maybe 12 or 14 people.
37:27
Wow.
37:28
And I remember being on stage doing something
37:32
and another student, she said something
37:35
that was very, like, just racist.
37:37
And that happens, because comedy,
37:39
sometimes when you're not very good at it,
37:41
you punch down, you know?
37:44
And so... And I remember the entire class
37:47
had a reaction to it.
37:49
Do you remember what she said?
37:50
No.
37:52
She was trying to do it as a joke?
37:53
Yeah, yeah.
37:54
It was like something like, I'm all, like,
37:57
moving ahead like a black girl.
37:58
It was something like that.
37:59
Right, a caricature, yeah.
38:00
Yeah.
38:01
And, uh, but she said it.
38:02
Like, I don't know.
38:04
And I remember the class reaction
38:08
was much more drastic.
38:09
You know, me, I was actually good at comedy.
38:13
So it's like, girl, I got something in the chamber.
38:14
You know what I'm saying?
38:15
Like, you know?
38:17
And...
38:18
But it felt like when the class reacted,
38:21
it felt like, you know, when a kid falls
38:24
and the kid doesn't know quite what to do yet,
38:26
but then when everybody else is like,
38:28
oh, are you okay?
38:28
Then the kid is like,
38:29
I'm supposed to cry, I guess I'm hurt.
38:32
And I think that that's what happened.
38:34
Like, I didn't cry, of course, but I recognized
38:37
that like an offense had took place
38:40
only because of how everybody responded.
38:41
Yes, I see.
38:42
Yeah.
38:42
But, and this is not to...
38:44
this is not like to talk about Groundlings in any way.
38:47
I have very little experience with them.
38:49
But I do remember, like, the class responded a certain way,
38:53
but I didn't feel like the teacher's response was...
38:57
very protective, you know?
38:59
It was kind of like,
39:00
-"Let's get past it!"
39:02
You know, like, let's...
39:02
Yeah."
39:03
Yeah, you know.
39:05
And so, that didn't really sit well with me.
39:07
And so, I remember not feeling like I was gonna...
39:10
Like, yeah, after this is over, I think I'll...
39:11
I'll yeah go explore improv somewhere else yeah how did your parents feel about this turn into
39:18
creativity when I started doing stand-up Muslim parent yeah my parents are Muslim yeah um are
39:24
they conservative I mean in terms of their outlook about you know loving you becoming
39:28
loving the idea of you becoming a mathematics teacher and not so much loving the idea of you
39:32
becoming a my father passed away my senior year of my last my fourth year of school that's hard
39:38
And so he, yeah, so he didn't get an opinion.
39:42
But I found out later, my mom said, your father would be so proud of you.
39:45
I said, really?
39:46
She said, yeah, you know, he always wanted to be a comedian.
39:49
What?
39:50
Get out.
39:51
That was a serious ass man.
39:53
I don't, let me tell you something.
39:54
I don't remember him doing nothing funny.
39:56
He was, he was the strict disciplinarian in our house.
40:00
Was he a migrant or was he born in America?
40:01
No, he's born in America.
40:03
Okay, right.
40:03
Yeah.
40:03
Tough guy.
40:04
Yeah, tough guy.
40:05
Converted to Islam through the Nation of Islam.
40:07
Black national.
40:08
You know, like, yeah.
40:10
Very serious.
40:11
Yeah, very serious.
40:12
Yeah, right.
40:13
You know, I mean, he didn't stay with the Nation of Islam, but still very, very serious.
40:17
Yeah.
40:17
And so I don't remember.
40:20
Isn't that funny when you have just an idea of your parent that is from your childhood?
40:25
Yes.
40:26
How was he fun?
40:28
Funny how?
40:29
He's got like Louis Farrakhan over here.
40:31
Yes.
40:31
He's got his comedy heroes over here.
40:34
Yes.
40:34
And he was just a real human being who was vulnerable like everybody else.
40:37
I've never heard anybody called Louis Farrakhan Louis.
40:41
That is so funny.
40:42
I've never heard anybody make his name so casual.
40:46
That is hilarious.
40:48
Me and Lulu, we go way back.
40:50
Lulu, my stuff.
40:51
But you want to know what?
40:52
As funny as I am on stage, and as easily as I can access comedy or humor, I am very serious.
41:04
And so I think when I look at it like that,
41:06
I can understand that, like, maybe my mom knew
41:08
a part of my father that I didn't.
41:12
Obviously, she's his love interest.
41:14
But also, like, people who are fans of mine
41:17
that know my siblings, they go to my siblings
41:19
and they're like, your sister must crack you up all the time.
41:23
Like, she's so funny, you guys must just be laughing
41:25
all the time.
41:26
And my siblings all say the same thing.
41:28
They're like, she's very serious.
41:30
Right.
41:30
Right.
41:31
She's actually, when we're in the house, she's not the funny one.
41:35
Like, she's super serious.
41:37
Yeah.
41:38
I don't think that's uncommon for professional comedians.
41:41
Yeah.
41:42
You know, it's like there's, it's one thing to be the wacky person at a party.
41:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:47
But it's another person to actually take seriously, like, the craft of stand-up.
41:51
I think the wacky person, the person that's always on, they're kind of exhausting.
41:54
Yeah, exactly.
41:56
That's right.
41:56
It's like, here she comes.
42:00
Here's funny Susie.
42:01
oh my god you know the party ain't started till suzy gets here like it should be an snl sketch
42:09
or something like funny suzy yeah like funny so funny suzy shows up to the party with some
42:15
yeah everyone knows the party jokes to dan yeah but i'm and so was your mom i mean i'm interested
42:23
in people who are raised by in a in a devout household especially in during a period in which
42:28
There was, you know, prejudice against Muslims as well as black people and like the rise of the right and like the, you know, everything that's going on at the moment.
42:40
It's an interesting thing being like a black American Muslim, being like, I talked about this in my first special, being like a black American Muslim woman.
42:48
It's like, I got to pick.
42:49
I don't know.
42:49
I don't know what you're discriminating against.
42:51
You know what I'm saying?
42:52
Yeah.
42:53
I heard you saying that you wish you were gay.
42:55
Yeah.
42:55
I have the fourth.
42:57
Yeah.
42:57
I have the infinity glove of diversity.
42:59
That's right.
43:00
But you just don't know.
43:01
There's moments in my life where I'm like,
43:04
okay, which one of this is, are they attacking?
43:07
Which one is hurting me right now?
43:09
Yeah.
43:11
But my parents are reverts,
43:18
which means that they were both born Christian
43:22
and reverted to Islam, right?
43:24
Or converted, however you want to say that.
43:26
And so why would it be reverted?
43:28
Is that something that they say that is that a nation of Islam?
43:32
It's not a nation of Islam thing reverted to Islam.
43:36
Revert is because like what did they have ancestors who were Muslim?
43:39
No, no, no.
43:40
But it's like the belief in Islam is that everyone is born Muslim.
43:44
Right.
43:44
OK.
43:45
Whether you choose a slightly chauvinist take on religion.
43:48
But like, yeah, you're not converting.
43:50
You're reverting to the truth.
43:51
Yeah, exactly.
43:52
Exactly.
43:54
And so and so that's just, you know, that's why I like to I don't really want to piss nobody off.
43:59
That's why I'd be like, revert, convert, whatever in your soul allows you to receive the conversation in the most, you know, copacetic way I'm all for.
44:09
You know, I'm not about to die on a hill of revert and convert.
44:13
You know, there's too many more pressing issues.
44:15
Right.
44:17
And so but because of that, because they chose it, you know, I always talk about this, too, when I'm doing like very Muslim specific shows.
44:26
There is there is a my faith is Islam.
44:31
But my cultural background is that of a black American.
44:35
Yeah.
44:35
And they're very different.
44:37
And so when I get on the stage with, let's say, somebody like Rami Youssef or Moen, they're speaking about an immigrant experience.
44:44
They're speaking about Islam, but by way of an immigrant experience.
44:48
And and I and I have a lot of friends and fans who are, let's say, from or, you know, Iranian.
44:56
And they're like, we love being in America.
44:58
We love being in Canada because we now get the freedom of choice.
45:02
And I think when you meet usually black American Muslims, it was Islam is liberating.
45:10
It is anti the enslaved mindset.
45:14
And so we sort of have a different appreciation for Islam than maybe someone who grew up in an Islamic state.
45:22
Right.
45:23
And it was maybe forced upon, you know, like and so even in my stand up, I am very proud.
45:31
I lean into Islam where sometimes, you know, Muslim comedians talk about the the problem, you know, like obviously a lot of people celebrate it.
45:42
But I just I just think that that's always an important note, you know.
45:46
And so there are certain things like my mom sort of she walks that line, too.
45:55
Like sometimes I'm not sure if she's going to respond to me as a Muslim woman or a black woman.
46:00
Right.
46:01
You know?
46:01
What's the difference?
46:04
A lot of times the Muslim response is based in like morality.
46:12
or modesty, you know,
46:21
where the cultural response...
46:28
When would the cultural response come in?
46:31
I'm having a hard time pulling an example right now,
46:34
but there is a difference.
46:37
There is a difference.
46:38
You know, and I'm not trying to say that the cultural response lacks morality or modesty, but things that are just overtly like, is this good or bad?
46:50
Is this what I want my teenage daughter to be doing?
46:53
It's not really based in like what we're doing in America.
46:56
It's based in what's the teachings of Islam, you know?
47:00
But then like...
47:03
And you don't find a problem in terms of modesty in reconciling your presumably American feminism with the subordinate role of women in Islam?
47:19
I think that you can only sort of answer that question if you truly believe that there is a
47:24
subordinate role you know that Islam presents it in that way um I think that there's a lot of like
47:33
here's the thing sexism is sexism you know what I'm saying like sexism
47:38
exists even if you don't if you take it out of the context of religion yes you know um
47:45
religion doesn't dictate that you pay me less because i'm a woman you know and i don't believe
47:52
that i'm a muslim woman that doesn't wear hijab right i don't cover up and there's some you used
47:58
to i used to i definitely used to um and why did you stop it just really wasn't cool
48:07
for you or for people around you everything i was a black i was a black girl in the inner city
48:15
and I was tired of people pulling off my kimar.
48:18
You know what I'm saying?
48:19
And so I wanted to be cool.
48:21
Yeah, I was watching Destiny's Child.
48:26
They was not wearing hijab.
48:28
You know what I'm saying?
48:29
Truly, the images that I was seeing,
48:32
the images that I felt like represented me,
48:36
they were not that of a Muslim girl.
48:39
So now I get to be that.
48:41
I get to be some version, you know?
48:44
But no one will rip it off you now.
48:46
No, they'll still do it.
48:48
Yeah.
48:49
I mean, that would be a completely taboo crime.
48:52
But you could put it back on.
48:53
I would have loved to hit that middle school boy in my class with a hate crime.
48:57
Oh, I would have loved to go viral, cancel.
49:00
You know what I'm saying?
49:01
I don't want to say his name now because it's a very specific name.
49:05
But why don't you wear it now?
49:08
I actually think about it often.
49:10
but I think every time I think about it,
49:13
it's not for the right reasons.
49:16
I'd be just like, it'd be so easier to not do my hair.
49:21
It's not right, you know?
49:23
Or sometimes it's a peer pressure.
49:25
You know, it's like, would this be better marketing?
49:29
If I were...
49:30
You know, my special was called, Hijab's Off.
49:33
You know, should I put it on now and like, get the sequel?
49:37
That's not the right reason to put on a hijab.
49:39
I don't know if there is any right reason, but...
49:42
What do you make of non-Muslim people putting it on in solidarity for Muslim rights?
49:49
Like, there was an interesting moment, I think, at the beginning of the Trump administration where there was...
49:54
It was a bit conflicting and confusing.
49:56
Like, I understand that I don't want to caricature Islam by making it a given that women are subordinate in that faith.
50:06
But the majority of places where the majority of women are wearing headscarves or veils, they don't have any say in the matter.
50:15
Yeah, and let's not pretend like women aren't being stoned in places and killed in places, murdered in places where they're not.
50:22
So I'm not pretending that that's...
50:23
this strange sort of it's become a symbol of defiance for like well-meaning like lefty
50:29
non-muslims to show solidarity for progressive causes without i think adequately wrestling with
50:36
the reality of the way that women are treated under so in so many muslim societies and under
50:41
so many muslim regimes it's like it's all very well for you to wear it when you're protesting
50:45
in North Hollywood, but like 90 plus percent of people who wear that would face serious
50:53
punishment if they didn't.
50:54
If they didn't, yeah.
50:55
And even if not from their actual state.
50:58
Yeah, then from their family, they'd be excommunicated, they wouldn't have any rights not to have
51:02
their husband divorce them, they wouldn't be able to keep any of their money, they wouldn't
51:04
be able to keep the house, they wouldn't be able to see their kids.
51:06
Exactly, exactly.
51:07
And that's all fundamental to the way that Islam is practiced in the world.
51:12
Yeah.
51:12
I think that it's performative, but it's not bad.
51:18
You know, like I wouldn't villainize the left-leaning woman
51:22
that goes to a protest in Seattle and is like,
51:26
not my hijab!
51:29
It's like she's well-meaning, you know,
51:31
and I think that that shouldn't be villainized.
51:36
But I would then also encourage that same person
51:39
to, like, apply that energy, like, tangibly,
51:43
like, legislatively.
51:45
Do you get what I'm saying?
51:46
And that really does mean, like, where you put your dollars.
51:48
That really does mean, like, who you vote for.
51:51
You know what I'm saying?
51:52
Because who you vote for
51:53
establishes who we have relationships with
51:55
around the world.
51:56
You know what I'm saying?
51:57
And then who gets impa... You know, there's a lot of, like...
52:01
We're talking about it now, maybe not in the news,
52:04
but definitely on social platforms,
52:06
how regimes are planted in certain areas
52:09
to assist, you know, some other government
52:15
to maintain power or resource or whatever.
52:18
And so I think it just has to go a bit beyond the performance of it.
52:22
You know?
52:23
But I don't think that there's anything...
52:25
You know, sometimes in these really, really big issues
52:29
and these... this wanting for change, you know,
52:34
like, historically and globally,
52:37
sometimes as just a human being you can feel powerless and sometimes the only way you feel
52:43
like you can help is I'm going to show up to the protest with a flag and a hijab
52:50
and that's like a good place to start maybe you could also read a book uh well who says you're
52:55
not doing that as well probably not reading probably not reading a lot of books about the
53:01
history of women in islam you know but maybe that's where it starts maybe you show up you
53:06
know when you tie your hair up and and then you and then somebody tells you somebody says
53:12
hey you know if you really want to and that's the start of it you know like i think that that we
53:19
criticize people's entry points sometimes and really we should sort of celebrate the try
53:27
Right.
53:27
You know, I think that that's important.
53:29
Yeah.
53:30
I think it's important.
53:31
And I say that as somebody who exists on the Internet
53:34
and I understand the extremes of the Internet,
53:39
and I get it a lot.
53:40
You know, my hijabs off dropped 20 days after October 7th
53:50
or maybe, you know, that year.
53:53
And so there was a lot of...
53:55
I received a lot of what I call misguided grief, you know?
54:00
And I had to like navigate it,
54:01
but I had understanding of it all, you know?
54:05
Why you would think this is disrespectful,
54:07
why you would misunderstand me,
54:10
why you would feel the need to protect what you believe,
54:14
why you would celebrate me, why you would feel liberated by me,
54:18
why you would just be able to kind of get a joke,
54:19
you know what I'm saying?
54:20
why you would be able to get a play on words, you know?
54:23
Like, I got it all, you know?
54:26
And some things felt, it felt much better for people to be like,
54:29
I love this, thank you.
54:30
You opened up my soul and made me still work, you know?
54:34
Versus people who were like, you should never have a career.
54:37
How dare you, and you're going to hell.
54:40
Now, you were able to tune it out?
54:41
No, no.
54:43
Not completely.
54:45
But, you know, it's kind of like, it's part of the job.
54:48
It's like you don't get the praise without the demonization.
54:54
You know, it's part of the job.
54:56
Do you read social media?
54:58
Some of it.
54:59
Yeah.
54:59
Yeah, the more popular you get, the more you tune out.
55:02
Yeah, exactly.
55:03
Because you're like, these people are crazy.
55:04
Yeah, that's right.
55:04
There comes a point, surely.
55:06
It's fine.
55:07
It's just a blur.
55:08
Yeah, it's like 100 people following you and only three people are like, you should not be here.
55:12
Yeah.
55:13
But then when you have hundreds of thousands of people following you and videos and things get millions of views and stuff like that, and you just have a barrage of people sort of like, you don't even know if it's bots at this point.
55:27
No, exactly.
55:27
You know what I'm saying?
55:28
Also, even if they're real people, they're behaving functionally like bots, so you can disregard them as if they're bots.
55:34
Yeah.
55:36
Spewing some bullshit out on the internet.
55:37
Let me put down this phone and turn on NBC and watch Oprah.
55:41
I'm telling you
55:42
we're going to get back there
55:43
go out to the nature preserve
55:45
and talk to a kangaroo
55:46
about its nips
55:48
about its teats
55:50
about its teats
55:52
fabulous
55:53
so this show
55:53
that you're doing
55:54
at the comedy festival
55:55
this year is what
55:57
do you want to
55:57
shill it for
55:58
yeah let's do it
55:59
it's called
55:59
yeah yeah yeah
56:00
I'm doing it every night
56:02
at
56:02
I'm doing it every night
56:03
through April 5th
56:04
at the Melbourne Town Hall
56:06
in the portrait room
56:07
thankfully my show
56:08
is selling pretty well
56:09
We've had some sold out dates.
56:11
We have some shows that are also sold out.
56:13
And so get some tickets.
56:14
Are you bringing it to Sydney or anywhere else?
56:17
I'm actually, it'll be taped for special in Washington, D.C. in June.
56:22
And you're not coming to elsewhere in Australia?
56:24
I'm not coming elsewhere in Australia, but I really do love the Melbourne audience, audiences.
56:30
I feel like they're smart and savvy, but also curious and willing to listen and patient.
56:38
And also they have a good sense of humor.
56:41
Are they racist compared to Americans in the sense that not intentionally being mean, but being less on the bandwagon of norms that have been updated in the States in the past five years?
56:53
Because I found when I came back from New York, it was in the middle of the cultural reckoning where there were all kinds of norms and taboos around the way that you would talk about race in the States that didn't yet exist here.
57:09
So there could be well-meaning, perfectly non-racist people, ostensibly, who would say things.
57:14
You were reminding me of it when you were talking about the incident in the improv class.
57:18
Who would say things that, to someone who's lived in the States, to me, would land as pretty racist.
57:24
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
57:24
And they'd have to sort of be a little bit educated.
57:28
Yeah.
57:29
Or not.
57:30
You know, maybe America has become overly hypersensitive about those conversations.
57:34
Yeah.
57:35
maybe it's more important to care about what's in a person's heart than the way they put their
57:39
foot in it or something but i don't know do you find do you find a difference so well one my my
57:44
let's say i think my room seats look like close to 200 people and every night i'm just seeing a
57:49
sea of white faces for the most part like 99 are white faces and i'm not sure if that's the
57:54
demographic of melbourne or if no it's not the demographic of melbourne that would be the
57:59
the demographic of the melbourne comedy festival go perhaps okay it's also probably that people
58:03
are interested in yeah and so i think that they're i think that these are people who already know me
58:08
they know my work in some way and so and so just that and that curiosity alone to like come in like
58:15
well let me see what she's talking about you know but i i haven't experienced that's why i mean i'm
58:19
not suggesting that there's any racial anima so that people are uncomfortable with black people
58:22
i'm saying that there would be ways of talking there would be i mean i can't even think but but
58:27
like for an example the use of the phrase the n-word yeah right that became mandatory in the
58:33
states a lot long a lot earlier than it did here yeah right so if you were having a conversation
58:38
about how and if you said oh the n-word is the worst word in the world and you should never call
58:42
anyone an n-word in australia up until three years ago probably you could have said that you could
58:51
have said that in conversation don't never call it to someone you would never say the word to
58:55
someone but if you were saying the sentence you should never say the n word you could actually
58:59
say the word when you're saying it oh when you're saying don't do it when you're yeah exactly when
59:04
you're referring which sort of makes sense doesn't it i mean it's obvious that it's obvious that when
59:09
i'm saying that sentence i'm not using a racial slur against anybody i'm not demeaning anybody
59:13
right i'm talking about language yeah it would also sound different from you guys though because
59:18
the accent is like like how like it would probably it would not really sound probably sound yeah but
59:25
Don't try it right now.
59:26
Don't try it.
59:26
In some way.
59:27
But so things like that or things about talking about, I mean, you know, traditional ways in which American, you know, clueless American white people would put their foot in it by talking about people's hair.
59:38
Yeah, yeah.
59:38
Or asking where you're from or something like that if it's an Asian person.
59:41
Yeah, I'm not finding that.
59:42
Those things are not.
59:43
No, no, no.
59:44
Are less to do here.
59:44
Yeah, I'm not finding that.
59:45
And this is not my first time at the festival.
59:47
I think my first time at the Melbourne Festival was in 2018.
59:51
And so that's eight years ago.
59:53
Yeah.
59:53
You know.
59:54
That's almost pre-work.
59:55
Yes, and I don't even remember then.
59:58
And I wasn't performing in front of an audience.
1:00:00
I was a less established comedian at the time.
1:00:02
And so, really, I was coming out to audiences
1:00:05
that didn't know me, and I was, like,
1:00:06
sort of convincing them that they should know me.
1:00:09
And now I'm performing in front of fans, you know?
1:00:12
And even back then, I wasn't, I didn't feel, um...
1:00:17
I don't think I experienced any sort of, like,
1:00:20
somebody trying to, like, cross the line, you know?
1:00:24
whether that's just truly in them or just to be provocative or get a reaction.
1:00:29
Yeah, good.
1:00:30
Yeah.
1:00:31
Yeah.
1:00:32
So, but I do find that the audiences here can be a bit quiet sometimes,
1:00:38
you know, like, and it's like, but they respond to like,
1:00:43
they respond to truth, which I can appreciate.
1:00:46
Like I'm talking a lot in this show, I talk about guns,
1:00:48
which I will say I was asked not to because you guys had the Bondi beach
1:00:53
shooting you know um and i and i am proudly pushing against that because how like you know
1:01:02
these these things exist yeah exactly no i think that's right also it was you know when was it
1:01:10
end of november either way for me it felt like it was last week but even if it was even if it was
1:01:16
yesterday it exists you know what i'm saying but also i'm not i'm not saying bondi right like
1:01:22
Nobody's making a joke about it.
1:01:24
We're talking about something that really exists in the world.
1:01:26
And it kind of felt like somebody was trying to control my art.
1:01:30
And I don't like that.
1:01:31
You know, it feels like, why am I here?
1:01:33
Why would I be doing this?
1:01:34
If you're going to, if you're essentially, I said it on stage.
1:01:38
I say, yeah, you know, I was asked to not talk about that.
1:01:40
I said it after the audience has enjoyed 24 minutes.
1:01:43
Yeah.
1:01:44
On me.
1:01:44
Yeah.
1:01:45
Talking about my experience with a gun, you know?
1:01:48
And I say, yeah, they asked me not to talk about it.
1:01:50
And I said, what is this, Saudi Arabia?
1:01:53
And they laughed and then they realized, oh, shoot, we really do look out at other parts of the world with this moral superiority.
1:02:04
And we actually have the same practices sometimes, which is much more passive.
1:02:09
You know?
1:02:10
And so, yeah.
1:02:12
Yeah, that's interesting.
1:02:13
And I like finding those moments on stage where we can just have a real, they don't need to take long.
1:02:19
They don't even need to be heavy handed.
1:02:22
But it's like, we get a glimpse into like...
1:02:28
What's the truth?
1:02:29
Oh, yeah, shit, that is the truth.
1:02:30
Damn.
1:02:30
You know?
1:02:32
Look at your neighbor.
1:02:32
Fuck.
1:02:33
Yeah.
1:02:34
Look at us being hypocrites.
1:02:36
Oh, my God.
1:02:37
Who knew?
1:02:37
Right?
1:02:38
Yes.
1:02:39
Yes.
1:02:40
Although it's likely that the kinds of people
1:02:42
who are in those audiences are already sold.
1:02:45
I imagine.
1:02:46
They're, yes.
1:02:47
They're, yeah, they're like, they're fans,
1:02:50
they're interested, they're curious.
1:02:51
At the very least, they're curious, and that's good.
1:02:54
Curiosity, I don't know if it has...
1:02:57
You know how certain words have negative or positive connotation?
1:03:00
I'm not sure what is attached to curiosity,
1:03:03
but I think that it should always be positive.
1:03:06
Oh, yeah.
1:03:06
Because curiosity leads to learn.
1:03:09
It's education.
1:03:10
Definitely.
1:03:11
And so, at the very least,
1:03:12
I know that every single person in my audience is curious.
1:03:15
Yeah, fabulous.
1:03:16
And that's a good place to start.
1:03:18
Okay, great.
1:03:18
The show is called?
1:03:20
toxically optimistic
1:03:21
it's a dark time
1:03:25
we gotta be so optimistic
1:03:27
that it's toxic
1:03:28
tell me about it
1:03:29
exactly
1:03:29
yeah
1:03:30
I wanna be so positive
1:03:32
that people are sick of me
1:03:33
fabulous
1:03:34
well I'm not sick of you
1:03:35
thank you for coming
1:03:36
thank you
1:03:36
we've got three more comics
1:03:38
coming up
1:03:39
in the rest of the afternoon
1:03:40
we've got
1:03:41
we've got Steve Visard
1:03:43
we've got Sam Jay
1:03:45
and we've got Tom Ballard
1:03:46
amazing
1:03:46
so it's gonna be great
1:03:47
glad to have been a part
1:03:48
of this
1:03:49
marathon.
1:03:50
Thank you.
1:03:51
Yeah, thank you.