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Turning Points of the Pittsburgh Steelers · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another exciting episode of Pittsburgh Sports Memories.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um as usual, I'm your co-host, Steve Wirth, and I'm joined by I'm Tim Hannon.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Tim, you know, what would you currently say is a you know laughing stock franchise in sports?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like name name some in the New York Jets.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: End of list.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Cleveland, all the Cleveland Browns.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: The Bengals, right?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the Pirates.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: What about the Clippers, you know?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like Clippers.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: What uh even the Angels, you know, they they they've had like Mike Trout forever and never go anywhere, right?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how how does that now I would say Detroit is kind of an example of a former laughing stock to like maybe not a model franchise, but to a success.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: So how how does that happen?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do these, you know, an organization go from a laughing stock to a model flagship franchise?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, every organization has those moments, and um, it's just the direction of the franchise for years to come.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, on this episode, we're going to explore the rise of the Steelers from the Sadsack franchise franchise to an NFL flagship franchise, from basically the city of losers.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Did you know you lived in a city of losers, Tim?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we never did to the city of champions.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess when you know, it's kind of funny that there's actually a caption in the paper that talks about the city of losers.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I I don't think it's a coincidence, Steve, that it was the city of losers and then you and I were born.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's city of champions, you know.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Just saying.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you could make that argument.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: You might be wrong or coincidental, but you could make that argument.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Causation and correlation.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, something like that.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh back background.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the Steelers were founded in 1933, as well known by a gentleman named Art Rooney Sr.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, with his winnings from the track.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Art was pretty good horse handicapper, much better at the track than he was at football.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so Art Rooney Sr.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: runs the team basically from 1933 to 1965.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, what did the Steelers look like in these years?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try and give us a picture here, Tim.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Tim's really excited to learn about these early.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: We we did an uh episode of the dark years of the Steelers.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can listen to that if you really want to go into deep depth of all the misery.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so um they had a carousel of coaches.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: It seemed like they're always hiring and firing, and I'm not even talking like the early days, I'm talking like as the league modernized.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Dr.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sutherland from Pitt um was really the most successful.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, probably, yeah, I guess because he got him to a playoff game, but he was only there one year, and they had a playoff game in 1948, and uh uh Jock Sutherland died the next year, actually on a scouting trip.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um Walt Keysling was a popular with uh the Chief there.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um Walt Keisling and um uh Art Rudy Sr.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: kind of had a Billy Martin, John, uh George Steinbrenner kind of relationship where like you're hired, you're fired, you're hired, you're fired.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was like very like on again, off again, StarCrest lovers kind of thing.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know what Walt Keisling had on the chief, or the chief just really liked him.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: He he really was fired and rehired three times, which that's just unbelievable.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hard to believe.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, not when you can say, I mean, you know, we considered like why didn't this team win?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, yeah, doing that.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then they hired Buddy Parker, who, you know, okay, now we finally got a coach who's a winner, a proven winner, right, Tim?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: This guy's this proven winner, and he's and not only that, he goes and brings his you know Hall of Fame quarterback Bobby Lane to the team.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we got it set.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the wrong, the only problem with that was Buddy Parker's insane.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's putting it lately, too.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's he's a total we did a whole episode on him, yeah.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Total nut job.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so good coach, but just a little.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll we'll go into that more as the uh this episode unfolds.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh not only that, uh the carousel coaches, so you don't have stability in the coaching staff, you the ownership is stable, but the the coaches just aren't stable, and you know, and it really isn't stable from ownership because you know you're always hiring and firing the same guy over and over again.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a comedy of errors, um, signing players that played in Canada, John Henry Johnson.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: He's they tried to sign him and he's like, I'm gonna go play in the CFL.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, insane coaches trying to cut the whole team.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was Buddy Parker, was like, after a poor performance, I'm just gonna cut everybody.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Burt Bell, who was the commissioner of the NFL at the time, was like, uh, dude, you can't do that.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's by the way, one of my favorite stories ever that he tried to cut the whole team.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, you're all gone.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um how about uh Walt Keysling, who cut Hall of Famer Johnny Unitis, and then Buddy Parker did cut Len Dawson.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um they they did trade Earl Morrill, who ended up being a solid journeyman, but they at least that trade made sense.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: They traded for Bobby Lane, who you know Buddy Parker kind of knew from Detroit winning championships in Detroit.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: So um it it which kind of leads us to Buddy Parker really liked to trade away the future for win now.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Does that sound familiar, Tip?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: He he very much liked to trade away draft picks, he didn't want those pesky rookies messing things up, he wanted a veteran team with his veteran quarterback, and they were gonna win now.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the chief, like they had been unsuccessful from 1933 to the late 50s there, that the chief was getting impatient himself.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to win something here.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm tired of being the laughing stock.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so he he definitely lets Buddy Parker do his thing.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of one of the the hallmarks of the Steelers that kind of transcends both these eras, is the ownership does let the coaching staff run the team.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Art Art Rooney prided himself on that, that he he was gonna let the football people make the football decisions and not interfere so much.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, except for you know, obviously when it came to hiring and firing coaches and general.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: But like you said, if if if Buddy Parker wanted to trade Carl Morrill or Lynn Dawson away, or or even like going back to Keysling with Unitis, you know, his sons were telling him, hey, this kid in training camp, this quarterback Unitis, he's really good, but the coaches won't let him play.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And Art Rooney decides he's not going to step in because well the the coaches, you know, the coaches would know better.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that um Buddy Parker uh he had a reign of terror from 1957 to 1965, and that's so dubbed, not by me, by uh Bob Labriola, who's kind of the resident Steeler historian.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is all from Bob Labriola's article on the Steelers history with trades.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in the eight seasons between 1958 and 1965, Buddy Parker traded the Steelers' number one pick away five times, the number two pick four times, the number three pick six times, the number four pick seven times, and then their five pick seven times, the number six pick six times.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, they never had a draft from nineteen fifty-eight to nineteen sixty-five.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Although I will say, this is back in the days when the draft went like 15-20 rounds, but it was also much more of a crapshoot back then because you you know you didn't have national televised college football games like you do now, yeah, where you could easily scout these guys.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you also had a bunch of small colleges that nobody was figuring out how to extract talent from until really until Bill and Lunn came in.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So so you're right, the graph the draft was a bit of a crapshoot.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and like to be fair, the Los Angeles Rams of the current era have kind of done a very similar approach.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: They've been successful.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean it it it's not like it can't be successful.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I will say this like in 1959 and 1963, the Steelers didn't have a draft pick until the eighth round of the draft.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the Rams do pick, like a lot of the Rams' current players on their defense are draft picks, so it's not all Miles Garrett and a bunch of guys that are old-timey veterans.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's fair.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think they just kind of use it to plug in a big hole if they think they need it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, but they they also got their quarterback in a similar way that the Steelers got Bobby Lane, you know, of the trade a trade with Detroit.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's yeah, it it again, it honestly, I don't know how much you're gonna get into the detail of it, but the Steelers were very, very actually close to being successful in that era, uh, one game away from playing in the NFL championship game.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: So so it wasn't like it was a failure.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it really got blown up by Buddy Parker being as unstable as he was.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in 1959 and 1963, um, they didn't have those drafts and those draft picks, and instead of getting young talent, they they could have gotten like players like Dave Robinson, Bobby Bell, tight end John Mackey, all of guys are in the Hall of Fame.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: They were kind of stuck, you know, with whatever because they didn't have these picks until the eighth round of the draft, just to finish the thought on that.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the bad ownership, Art did believe in letting the coach run the team without a GM, which may have been not a great idea.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he relied on Buddy Parker's philosophy of just drafting veterans, not developing young players, trading for veterans, not building with rookies, always citing veterans.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um he did not get involved in day-to-day football operations, like we said, you know, with the Johnny United's cut.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um he let the coaches make trades and he even overpaid for some players.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like who was the he had the one guy who was the first million dollar player.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean it wasn't like Art didn't want to spend or he was necessarily cheap.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, you know, like you said, it didn't didn't quite work out, and mainly because of once again, they didn't have the right coach and the right maybe the right philosophy on running the football side of things.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So what was the fans' view of this?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the fans used to say SOS, which normally in nautical terms means what save our souls, save our ship, whatever.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: But for the Steelers, it would be we'll use the PG version, Tim, since we're not allowed to swear, same old Steelers, which could be same old excrement, if you know what and that was like every time, like Tim would say, like every time they got close, they seemed like the bottom would fall out from this organization, and they would be back to like they finally win in 1947, they win and they get to a playoff game and they lose, and it's like, oh, okay, we got the right coach, we got an offense that'll work in this era, and then Jock Sutherland dies the next year.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we kind of you know, you know, Bobby Lane and these great teams, and oh no, you know, we we lose in a playoff game that would have gotten us to the championship game, or um we signed Big Daddy Lipscomb, the famous defensive tackle from from Baltimore, but then he overdoses in the offseason, and you know, that goes for naught.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um other bad luck was um uh Burt Bell, the actual commissioner of the NFL, died at a Steelers game.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just kind of like a cursed organization.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you remember Fran Rogell, the fullback?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do you knew what he was famous for, Tim?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there was a there was a can about him going up the middle.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hey diddle diddle, Rogel up the middle.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because that's the first play when Walt Keisling would run.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: The first play of the game was so predictable.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: The fans knew what was coming, so obviously the other team knew what was coming, and it got so bad that art made Keisling run a different play, and it goes for a touchdown.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Yay! Well, Walt Keisling was not going to be shown up, so he had an offensive lineman jump off sides.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So this is kind of like the insanity that is Walt Keisling and Buddy Parker.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that that's that's and that's a true story.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like that that the coach of the Steelers literally sacrificed a touchdown on the first play of the game just so he wouldn't be proven wrong.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that level of pettiness is uh warranted in professional sports, but um or in our professional work at all, you know, let's screw ourselves over just so we don't look bad, you know.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean you gotta give him credit for for committing all the way to to the bit there.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but that's I mean Art Rooney was his ability to evaluate people maybe wasn't his strongest skill set.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, you're probably not wrong.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um as for the organization, they played in Pitt Stadium, which they were kind of almost an afterthought because Pitt was well, at least back in like the 30s and 40s, Pitt was still more popular, college was more popular.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were no sellouts at Steeler games, very rarely.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe the biggest highlight of that um era was YA Tittle getting his head cracked open, the famous picture that we've gone over in other podcasts.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we'll kind of focus in on the years before the change in leadership.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: The last years of Buddy Parker in 1963, with the team Tim was talking about there are 7-4-3.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because they had a tie, they had to play that playoff game against I think it was the Giants, and they they lost.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um 1964, they're an aging team, they're five and nine, they've trade away all their draft picks, they don't really have much young talent going on, and then in 1965, um, they really have one of the worst seasons.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So 1964, Buddy Parker leaves and they hire a guy named Mike Nixon who's literally there for one season, and that that team goes two and twelve, which is only the second worst season in team history, Tim.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, it was the worst.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wait, I know what it was.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's coming up.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: It gets worse.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Mike Nixon, though, I don't know what happened to him, so um, whatever.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh they go out, and they and so now Dan Rooney is coming of age, and he's like, I want to do start to change this organization, and I want to come up with a new guidelines.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is kind of one of the milestones or like you know, exit ramps off the losing highway that they were on that they're gonna take here.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they hire Bill Austin in 1966.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Why did Bill Austin come to Pittsburgh?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Did he want a job in advancement?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, he wanted a changing climate from Green Bay for his wife.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he was an assistant under Vince Lombardi.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Lombardi had called him the best young coach in the league.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is actually um the story of him hiring is you know, Dan goes and interviews him and then has one interview, and he's like, Okay, I'm gonna interview some other people.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have a follow-up interview with Austin later.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And sure enough, the chief goes behind his back and calls Bill Austin up and says, Hey, you're hired.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's actually the Chiefs' last hire of a head coach.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So and here, just to prove that, like, kind of like this is Bill Austin talking about the hire.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: He says, When I left Pittsburgh, the Rooneys told me they would make a decision in a few days.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: It came quickly, and I will get to work immediately.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I plan to fly east on a Monday on a Monday again.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: My first job will be to interview all the assistants from last season.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: So he didn't really know anybody, he hadn't met any of the assistant coaches, and he just like they just kind of like, oh, you know, it kind of fits with the narrative, like, oh, Vince said he was a good coach, Vince is good enough for me.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's what um Arc Senior says to Dan.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Well, I called you know, Vince Lombardi said he's a good coach, and Vince's word is good enough for me, and that's why I'm hiring.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of having the hiring process that Dan Rooney wanted to have where he would interview multiple candidates and have several interviews, more like a modern process, we just went with the old school, well, he seems like a good guy to me, chief kind of guy.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, which is which is unbelievable.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not just that so so the way I understand it, the way that Dan Rooney tells that story, yeah.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Art Art Sr.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: wasn't even involved in the interview that Dan had with Bill Austin.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, because they were they were like it wasn't in Pittsburgh, I don't think.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was in another city somewhere.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think he was in LA.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: He had left Green Bay to go to LA for his wife's health, and I think he was actually in LA at that point.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So so so like do you remember when Mike Tomlin quit and the Steelers were one of the one of the candidates was the Chris Shola, the defensive coordinator for the Rams.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that would have been like if the Steelers would have been like, well, like we called Sean McVeigh, and he says the Shola guy is pretty good.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just gonna hire him.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And like literally, they didn't talk to they didn't talk to Bill Austin, or our didn't talk to Bill Austin about like, hey, tell me a little about about our team and and what you see, you know, what would you change about our team?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And would you keep, you know, certain players, would you change the scheme?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Would you like none of that?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, just Vince said he's a good guy, and yeah, I trust Vince's opinion's opinion.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's unbelievable that that that that's the but that's like you said, Steve, that's kind of the way he he ran the team.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's kind of I have a cool picture of Bill Austin after he was hired with actually Dick Hoke in the picture and Paul Martha, and uh that's about the only people I really know in that picture.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um they did draft Rocky Blyer in the 16th round.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they drafted him.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Can you guess why they drafted him, Tim?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: They because he thought he was Catholic.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: The chief drafted him because he thought he was Catholic.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because he went to Notre Dame.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Rocky Bly is like a Presbyterian or something or Methodist.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Don't tell the chief.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're Catholic.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: If anybody asks, you go to St.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Mary's on the Mount.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're a good Catholic boy.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: You have confirmation and communion, everything.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh, you know, in 1968, the team goes to 11-1, which is once again only the second worst season uh tied to the 1965 season.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I they tied, so I guess you know that's a little bit better.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: That tie makes them a little better than the 1965 season.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Bill Austin goes 11-28-3 overall in three-season, three-season, and he's fired after that horrible 1968 season for obvious reasons.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think he ever coaches anywhere.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's just an assistant wherever else he goes.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the players on the 1968 team, um, the immortal Dick Shiner at quarterback, which is just unfortunate name.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great, great 1960s name for you.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: They also have Dick Hoke, um, who becomes a longtime coach with the Steelers.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you remember the O2 divisional game against Cleveland, the big comeback?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember the touchdown by Christopher Mathamalafala?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that won the game.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know who called that?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm guessing it was Dick Hoke.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it was.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was Dick Hoke.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: He kicked um, who was the was it uh Malarkey or Wizard Hunt?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: He kicked the I think it was Mullarkey, kicked him, you know, and said, hey, like nudged him under the table, like, hey, call this play, and sure enough, it was a walk-in.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um another fun guy that coached uh that played for that 68 team that won two games was Rich Cotite.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, the future coach of the Eagles.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Jets, yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think he Eagles too, yeah.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: He he was a tight end on that team, so he went on to coach the Jets badly.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and Andy Russell was a linebacker.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's one of the few players that will survive this uh disaster and uh see success with the uh Steelers, the one of the few pre-noll players.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um Paul Martha, you've probably heard the name.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: He's a free safety from Pitt, more famously known for running the Penguins and Maulers for the the Baller and O team, the Bardebo family.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: You probably remember him from that.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And just like more bad luck for the Steelers, like uh Rocky Blyer gets drafted and has to go over the Vietnam.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not so bad enough that he has to do that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: While he's over there, he actually gets injured.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so like and not that he was a high draft pick, but you know, it's unfortunate that one of the players you would pick to be on your team is now injured in a non-football incident that he really couldn't control.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So by the numbers, in the first 36 years of the Steelers' existence, do you want to hear this, Tim?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be pretty, is it?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: They had in 36 years, they had eight winning seasons.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: No playoff wins or championships or divisional wins.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: They played in the century division later, but they they didn't even come close to winning that.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um they had one playoff game in 1947 versus the Eagles, which they lost.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: That was with Jock Sutherland.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they had never won a playoff game.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, they the playoff game was due to a tie with the Eagles in a regular season.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: The Steelers were eight and four, and the Eagles were eight-four, and had to playoff, had to play a playoff game to go to the championship games, which the Eagles played against the Chicago Cardinals, and the Eagles actually lost that game to the Chicago Cardinals, which I think that might be the Cardinals' last championship, I think, in 1947.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're correct.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and that um that's another kind of garbage franchise we failed to mention at the beginning.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: The uh the um the 1963 game you mentioned, you said a playoff game that year, but I guess there wasn't.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think actually now that you meant because you said the Eagles was the only playoff game.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the 63 game, that game against the Giants, I don't think it was a playoff game.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was like the season.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a you're right, it's a regular season, but it ended up being a de facto playoff game.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was the Bears in the NFL championship game.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was basically a playoff game, but not officially.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're we're this is you know, we're pretty low here.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: The Steelers have sucked for a long time.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: They just had to fire like their hundredth coach they've had.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: So what changes?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in 1965, Dan Rooney takes control of the team.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna say it took it's gonna take Dan Rooney seven years to dig out of the hole that he was left by his father and buddy, buddy Parker.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it really does take this change in leadership and this change in philosophy.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think in any business, you know, the the leadership sets the tone for the rest of the organization.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's what kind of happened.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of went from this organization that just kind of flies by the seat of their pants, and if it's good enough of Vince, it's good enough for me.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And hey, you know, if you want to cut a Hall of Famer, I don't care, you know, whatever kind of attitude to um, you know, the modern version of the team.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and and Dan Rooney, you talked about like the whole left by by Buddy Parker.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: The only reason Buddy Parker isn't still there is because Dan um sort of fired him.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: What would happen was he would threaten to quit.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't was he the one that would threaten to quit all the time, or was that Keesling?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was either he wouldn't he wouldn't threaten to quit, he would actually quit.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Quit.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: But then he would but then like the next day he'd be like, okay, I'll call it because we'll come back.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And this time, like in He quit.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And Dan was like, good for me.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like, because the chief was just would just let him quit and come back.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then when Dan got in there in 65, he's like, Oh, you quit?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I hired a new coach.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and and the the reason that he quit that time was because uh Dan made him approve but Dan had to approve all his trades.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because that was another thing.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Art, like you said, art just let him trade whoever he wanted to.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he wanted to trade.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm blanking on the guy's name.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was a it was a black defensive player who he didn't like black players.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, he was very racist.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: We'll go into that later, too.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and Dan was like, Dan vetoed the trade.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so Buddy Parker's like, then I quit.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like he thought, I think he thought he could use that as like leverage.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like Dan would be like, No, no, don't quit.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Fine, go ahead and trade him, it's fine.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And Dan's just like, okay, bye.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: So so so it's it's worth noting that yeah, Buddy Parker might still be there in 19, you know, 70 or whatever, had had Dan not taken over.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and and that's you know, the change in philosophy is the franchise came to believe that the way to win championships in the NFL was to take young talent from college and teach those players how to be Steelers, and that's per Bob Labriola.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's part of the change in philosophy.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And Dan Rudy kind of you know, he creates the Steelers paradigm or the Steelers' way, which we always hear about.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's the way the Steelers do things.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like become so ingrained, Tim, that we just always say, Well, that's the way the Steelers do things, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that wasn't the way the Steelers did things, right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Which is just so weird to say.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, what is the Steelers' way of doing things?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is the as much as I can tell from the outside looking in how I would define it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: You hire a young coach, and normally they're defensive-minded.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: You build through the draft, and you never trade away.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have current draft picks, but I would say more future draft picks.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can trade away a draft pick for this year, but never next year's draft pick.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Normally, or very rarely, they did that.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Ownership is not involved in day-to-day decisions, so that kind of came over from the chief.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: No rash decisions or win now philosophy.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's new, that's different than the chief, because obviously signing Bobby Lane, getting all the you know players, you know, and it and another big thing is Dan is no consideration of race.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Dan is totally gonna be colorblind.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care are they a good football player or not?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the Steelers tend to stick to players.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for example, um, I would say uh cornerback is a big, big uh I mean probably quarterback is more obvious, but corner, Ike Taylor or Mel Blunt, they both took time to develop.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like Mel Blunt got div got benched in the 1974 divisional game.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And Taylor, too, got benched early in his career, but then they were allowed to develop and they became really, I mean, Mel Blunt a Hall of Famer, and Ike Taylor a really solid player later in his career.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, this is better than the you know, I'm gonna trade, you know, whatever.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: So so now we're gonna get into so Dan's kind of got his philosophy setting up here.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: How is he gonna execute this organizational change?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because you can't do it all by yourself, you can't coach the team, Al Davis, you can't, you know, run the scouting department, you can't run the day-to-day, you know.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: So Dan has got to find some reliable people.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the big hires, and we don't talk about this guy probably enough because he has a later blemish on his resume, and he does end up getting fired by Dan, but really, he's a big reason for the turnaround.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's Art Rooney Jr.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: So this is Dan's what older brother or younger brother?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: I can't.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Younger.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Younger.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Younger.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Art Rooney Jr.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: makes a promise.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: He says he's going to get so many good players that the coach can't screw it up.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's got to just load the team with so much talent you can't do nothing but write.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: He also um starts using an organization called Blesto, which was the pulling of scout services between the Bears, Lions, and Steelers.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: And this kind of like is a precursor to like, you know, the Combine, the NFL Combine.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, Chuck Knoll, who ends up coming into play here, was okay with that.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: And he's Chuck Knoll actually said, I'm okay with that as long as we have good scouts, too.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And another big thing that Dan Rooney does in Art Rooney too is they hire Bill Nunn.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, and also Art Rooney Jr., and we're gonna talk Bill Nunn's gonna get his own section here.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: They they draft Mean Joe Green from North Texas, and Art Rooney Jr.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: oversees the 1974 draft, which we'll go into detail too, which is just probably one of the greatest NFL drafts in history.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they had other scouts like Dick Haley, who saw the potential in Jack Ham in the Jacks, Ham is in Labert Lamberts.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so Art Rudy Jr.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: really changes the scouting department, modernizes it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the biggest thing is he doesn't believe in seeing race.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's you know, he shares that philosophy with um Dan.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they go and Dan actually hires Bill Nunn.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Bill Nunn was hired in 1967 as a part-time sideline role.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: He still worked at the Pittsburgh Courier, which was an African-American national paper of great renown.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And his father actually was the editor in chief of that paper.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Bill Nunn was a very good basketball player at a small um historically black college called um West Virginia State.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, but it actually took two years, and Dan Rooney finally hired him as a full-time scout, which meant he had to leave the newspaper.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, Bill Nunn was revel, he had covered Jackie Robinson at Forbes Field, very influential, and the biggest thing he did was he would do an all-American, like uh they called it a black all-American team back then because you know they were segregated still, even into the 60s.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he had this knowledge and context of all these HBCU programs in the South, like Grambling, Southern, you know, uh what else, Delaware State, all these great players are not being playing on the Alabamas, Tennessee, Georgia's, all the all the big schools in the South.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because segregation is still alive and well, even though it's not the law of the land, still culturally it hasn't switched.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um, major universities like Alabama, Georgia and Clemson, um, coaches that are famous, such as Bear Bryan and Vince Dooley and Frank Hallard, they would not recruit African American players even into 71 and 72.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the people that are just scouting the Alabamas and the Georgias of the world are not seeing the best players.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're really missing a huge crop of talent.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, by 1974, the Steelers have 11 players from historically black colleges on their roster during that season.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that is such an advantage for them because having Bill Nunn, because he knows who to look at, he know all the coaches know him, all the coaches, all the players know him.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they he's just like a real key instrument in the Steelers scouting success.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: He actually like uh scouts with the Steelers till I want to say 2014, 17.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, very late in his life.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that that's a very like I don't want to quite compare him to like Brant Rickey, but it's a similar thing where um literally, you know, there's all this talent that nobody's mining, and it's and it's it's all due it it's it's due to racism, but it's not even that the NFL teams themselves like in baseball is a little different.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like in baseball they literally had this like code.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you couldn't sign black players.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: In the NFL they had black players.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: They just like you said, everybody's looking at you know, Notre Dame and Alabama and and like the big colleges that are known for football, and you just there's this thought that like, well, if it's an all-black school, that's like that's that's such a lower tier, those guys could never make it in the NFL.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Bill Nunn thought differently.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, which leads to the next big key.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we got our ownership, right?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: We got our paradigm, we got your our marching orders, and we got our scouting department.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: The next big key in I would say in a winning organization of any sports is the coach.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: The coach is gonna, you know, handle the day-to-day, picks who plays and who sits, who we keep and who we don't.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this time um it's Chuck Knoll.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this time, Rooney has two hours a two-hour rigorous interview with Chuck Knowle.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So um, some background on Chuck Knoll.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was supposed to play for Notre Dame, but he had a seizure, I guess on the field.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Notre Dame wouldn't let him play.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so he he actually ended up playing linebacker and lineman for the University of Dayton.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: He was at the University of Dayton, he was nicknamed the Pope because he had such a great knowledge of the game.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it was Pope Knoll, I guess.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he does get drafted by Cleveland in 1953 in the 20th round.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta love these 20 rounds of drafts.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: You thought the draft was boring now.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's have round 18 and 20, huh, Tim?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and actually Noel was very smart.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: And he was um now, do you you don't remember us, neither of us are alive, but before the quarterbacks had like radios in their helmets, you would have to send the guy, either you would have signals or you would like I would tell another guy and he would go in and tell a play to the quarterback.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that guy in Cleveland was Chuck Knoll, and he was the messenger guard, and he would go in and get the play, and and he would bring the plays in to Otto Graham.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they said they said in Cleveland like Knowle got knew the picked up the playbook so well and knew the plays that they almost would just let Chuck Knoll call his own play.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: He could have called his own plays and been fine.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if Paul Brown ever would have let that happen, but yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: So Chuck Knowles start he retires at 27 to start coaching because he doesn't get a promotion.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: I figured they they had brought another player and they he just wasn't gonna get the play, so he's gonna lose.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: So he figured, well, I'll leave at 27, which is still pretty young.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um he actually goes to Los Angeles when they're still the Chargers that one year.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: We had covered that in the Raiders, Steelers rivalry, and him and Al Davis actually were in the same organization, and then Los Angeles San Diego Chargers, and then in 1966, he goes over to become the defensive coordinator of the um Baltimore Colts.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Almost said the other and in 1968, he creates this great defense that has the lowest points allowed in the NFL, 144 that season.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's how much how well that ranks in the record books with all the other teams, but um so he goes in 1968 and has his great seasons, considered his up-and-coming coach, and uh they lose Super Bowl III to the Jets 16-7, which is kind of a disaster for the NFL.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, they Dan Rudy doesn't hold him against them.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um Don Shula stated that he was like a teacher in the classroom the way he coached and broke down techniques.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I don't think I don't think the defense necessarily lost them that Super Bowl.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: That was kind of they missed the guy wide open, too.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: They ran a trick play, and what's the one Don Chandler was like wide open?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and once again, Earl Morrill.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Earl Morrill was the quarterback.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: And Earl Morrill was the league MVP that year.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean the Colts were really good, and it they just yeah, they just they blew it in the Jets.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: The Jets were kind of like one of those teams at the time that you know with Joe Namath and everything, it was kind of like a a magical run kind of a thing.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think it was like, you know, oh, we lost, it's all because of Chuck Knowle.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, during the interview process, Art Jr.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: actually, so Dan, not only does he interview his as his brother help interview, but he asked Chuck Knowle, do you care about a player's race?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: And Chuck Knowle responds, I don't care about the color of a player's skin.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm more interested in whether a guy was intelligent about the game and whether he'd be a team player.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he had been with Paul Brown in Cleveland, and obviously Paul Brown had that same philosophy.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And apparently referencing Buddy Parker and his blatant racism, he would um have a few too many after the game and drop the N-word when chewing out the team.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't I can't see why no black players wanted to play for Buddy Parker, right?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, I'm gonna get all lingered up, you guys were terrible, blah, blah, blah.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Racial, racial this and that.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh my goodness, what are you doing?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and can you can you imagine even at the time that question being asked in an interview?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: If if you asked that question today, everybody would have the same textbook standard answer.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: But literally, when you ask that question at the time, you might have a guy say no, you might have a guy say yes, you might have a guy say, Well, you know, it kind of depends.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: If they if they come from a good, you know, whatever, whatever place, then you know, maybe we you know we would take them on.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh that answer that you read by Tuck Noel sounds very much aligned with what you would expect somebody to say today, but in 1969, yeah, I was kind of far from a guarantee that somebody's gonna answer that way.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's see here.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so Noel, actually Dan Rooney, I have a quote from Dan Rooney.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Noel had plenty of recommendations.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sid Gilman, a fantastic rotation from Ball Brown, Rooney said, but this choice wasn't based on recommendations.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: What impressed me was the man himself.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if that was a shot at his dad.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: I particularly like his knowledge of organization, his concept of putting the whole pro game together.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: He has his own ideas on how things should be run, how men should be handled.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think he has a touch to motivate men.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he that was a good call.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have to I we have to put this on the Facebook page.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: I have this picture from the paper when Chuck Knoll gets hired in 1969.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is from January 28th, 1969.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it has a picture of Chuck Knowle.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the caption is Tim.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is where I kind of got the title of the podcast.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: New Steeler Coach to Take Crack at City of Losers! Losers.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it has like Chuck Knowle wistfully looking out the window of an office building onto Pittsburgh, like, what am I gonna do with these losers?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and he was actually asked that.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um we posted this on the Facebook page um at one point, and and that he was in probably that same article, he was asked about you know, it's a city of losers.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't just the steelers, the pirates were they they'd won in 1960, and Pitt had kind of gone into a funk.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, the the city of losers thing was just a moniker, and they a reporter actually asked Technology about that, like, you know, hey, City of Losers, and kind of laughing, and Technol very seriously responded, and he said, We're gonna make history.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was his answer to that, is we're basically we're gonna turn it all around, we're gonna make history.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what a bold thing to say in that moment, and then you know, well, not to spoil anything, but he kind of backs it up.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what about the other coaches considered, Tim?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Nick Skorich, he was an offensive coach for the Cleveland Browns.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know much about him.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know one of the guys that was considered.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: How about Bill Peterson?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's an FSK FSU coach at the time, and he had a pretty successful run at Florida State.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he would he would actually get a job with the Houston Oilers, and um, I'm really glad they didn't hire this guy.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: He was one and eighteen.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he was a favorite of the papers.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: The papers really wanted them to hire Bill Peterson, but he was like, he would he would like say like crazy stuff like that wouldn't make any sense.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like the NFL film's like highlights of Bill Peterson are just incredible, like to him just saying nonsensical things.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Ernie Stotner, who was a Steelers legend, uh was a coach with Dallas at the time, which I don't know.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: I could see like maybe you thinking about that, you know.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's funny that you say that, Steve, because when they hire Bill Cower, you know, all those years later, Joe Green was one of the finalists for that job.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting that that was kind of a thing that they did.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this is of course, I don't know this for officially I only know this from like papers and what people said.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um Joe Paterno, oddly, now this is per Joe Paterno, so I I don't think Joe Paterno would lie about it.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't remember if Dan said anything about this in his book, but um he said he was offered$70,000 to coach the Steelers, and that was like triple what he was making at Penn State at the time.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: But he was like, Well, I just haven't won anything at Penn State, and I really want to turn it around, so he decided to stick with Penn State.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: So thank goodness.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: You don't think he would have been successful in the pros?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: You think he would have been like a Bill Peterson?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: That that's a great what if.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean because he's like kind of a calm demeanor kind of guy.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: He is, and and you know, he obviously you know had had a lot of good experience shaping younger players.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I and he wasn't you he would he would get you know he wasn't racial at all.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, that's also true.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I it's hard to say, Steve, because there's all there's a whole plethora of guys who were really good college coaches who became really Bad NFL coaches.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: Bill Peterson.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Nick Saban.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Steve Spurrier.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's like Jimmy Johnson.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's there's guys that went the other way too.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, who knows, actually.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great what if.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: He looks like he could be a Steeler coach with those thick glasses and just hanging around here forever until he's way too old to coach.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: So they have the they have the ownership.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: They have the paradigm.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: They have the scouting department, Tim.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: They have their coach.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to be awesome.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this first year, the the Super Bowl were bust, right?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, for sure.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: So their record is uh uh the worst record in team history, Tim.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is the worst of all time.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's one and thirteen.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and the one game that they won against the game.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first game of the season against Detroit, ironically enough.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like a last, like a last minute, not like a last second, but like in the final minutes of the game, they came back.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Dick Shiner threw a touchdown.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you're like, oh, this is what a great start for this new Knoll guy.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: And great things are ahead, and then they lose 15 games in a row to end the season.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yikes.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: See, you want to hear some stats?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why not?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Dick Shiner, for his credit, had eight touchdowns and 20 interceptions.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but not to be outdone, um, Terry Hanorati uh had two touchdowns and eight interceptions.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Dick Hoke uh had 531 rushing yards.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Roy Jefferson, who uh ends up getting traded or not traded, or maybe traded, had 1,079 receiving yards and nine touchdowns.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: They gave up a like that defensive genius that is Chuck Knoll, they gave up a league high 404 points on defense.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just for comparison, Gail Sayers led the league that year with 1,032 rush yards.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And at the I I think at the beginning of the season, Noel famously said to the players, we are going to win a Super Bowl, but most of you aren't good enough to be here when you do.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: I guess an A for honesty.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, you know, Steve, you talked about the steel away.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: You like you like listed as like five or six characteristics of what the steel away is, and one of the things you said was they don't make rash decisions.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a terrible season.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: You you have very bad, you know, obviously the quarterback stinks, the the leading rushing rusher is half of what you know GL Sayers would be the defense is the worst in the league.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Defense from the defense coach, yeah.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where, again, if you have ownership that that is rash, you know, there's been the other thing that the NFL history is littered with is coaches fired after their first season.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Tons of that.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the Steelers could have easily been like, God, one game.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: You lost 13 games in a row.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this was a mistake.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: We gotta move on.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Let's is Bill Peterson still free in the game?
• 47:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, but the one good the the kind of the silver lining to this dark cloud is the Steelers finish, ironically enough, with the tied for the worst record because Chicago Bears decided to be the Bears.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they're tied.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so the NFL actually had to have a coin flip to decide the first play pick.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I forget how they decided the Bears got the call the choice.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: I forget.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think Rooney let that happen.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's a story.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a story behind that.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: There is.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: So so number one.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: The the NFL, like it's always funny how you like look back at stuff and you're like, really, this was the this was the way they determined uh who was going to get the number one pick.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because guess what, Steve?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Guess who the Bears only win was against?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: I forget.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh was it the Lions?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was the Pittsburgh Steelers.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then that should give them the number one pick.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: That should be the tiebreaker.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: They played head-to-head and the Bears beat the Steelers, so now the the Steelers should be the number one pick, but they didn't have that tiebreaker or any tiebreakers.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: They were just like, oh, both had one win.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: How would we ever resolve that?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Slip of coin.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Ed McCaskey ends up calling the making the call when he works for the Bears.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's obviously one of the McCaskey family, yeah, who still owns the Bears to this day.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and this the story was that Art so so it was it was he and Dan Rooney, I think, were in the room.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: And Art had always told Dan, if you're ever in a situation where you are doing a coin flip for anything, don't call it.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: He said, always let the other person call it.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know what?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: For the one time, Art would know this because he was a gambler from way back when.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's one thing Art knows, it's gambling.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so he lets Ed McGaske call it.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not not hiring head coaches or running a football team, but gambling, he's your man.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or coin flips.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you're ever gonna do a coin flip, get the chief in the room.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's a there's a funny story.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: There was a reporter in there from the Chicago, what's the Chicago newspaper tribune?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's a Sun Times Tribune, who knows?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a there's a Chicago reporter in there that like blasts Ed McCaskey for calling heads.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you idiot, how could you mess that up?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he should have called tails because tails never fails.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Tails never fails.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Except for when Jerome Bettis called it.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Detroit did get their revenge, I guess, in 1998 when Jerome Bettis screwed up the coin cost.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they're really happy they won that game.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, now they have the top draft pick.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the first pick, the I think this is the last time the Steelers had the number one pick in the draft, correct?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is correct.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, they'll they won't draft anywhere near this high again.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as of as of the time of this recording, I don't think they've ever even been in the top five again.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: So Dan Rooney actually his philosophy of not trading picks is really tested.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't blame him on this one because you know that they're probably some, you know.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's see.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: According to Dan Rooney, there were three or four very firm offers made for the rights to the top pick last night.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Then this morning the Steelers withheld declaration of their pick until the draft started because Rooney said somebody could surprise us with somebody could offer us Superman.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: So he he was he was wait waiting for Superman and Lois Lane to come walking in.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: But no, he doesn't.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: They stick to their guns and they pick Terry Bradshaw, and yeah.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: The rest is kind of history there.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it ends up being a very pig.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a while for Terry to get on board, but yeah.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, meet the Mean Joe Dream graft draft in 1969 is probably a little bit more, you know, influential.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's the fourth overall pick from North Texas.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Green was disappointed to be drafted by the Steelers because he wanted to win.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't blame him.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the fans, for the fans' reaction, is who's Joe Green?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Steeler fans were asking almost to a man, who is Joe Green?
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Only three of 20 male fans in the Golden Triangle had heard of the six foot five, two hundred and seventy-five pound defensive tackle.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great 1969 newspaper.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: Gotta make sure you ask only the men.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think they do ask a woman in here.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is he an all-American?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: asked the salesman.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: The answer was yes.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's something he said.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: I never heard of him, a pat driver said.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a bus driver.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: They had a chance at Terry Hanready, didn't they take him?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: The man shrugged his shoulders.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, can they line him up in the secondary?
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: One fan said.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: Joe Green presses pants right over there, jested a magazine staff member from Cleveland.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: He does good work, too.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: Gee, I thought I was a pretty good football fan of Mount Levin and found township officials said, but I've never heard of Green.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then another, Joe Green must have been rated pretty good, said a stockbroker who never heard of him.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's pretty much nobody.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: s if I uh you know, I think he uh some small kid knows he's a defensive tackle, so
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's it was not a popular pick.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's funny that the one the one guy wanted the bus driver wanted Terry Hanry out of you.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then they get him anyway.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they got him in the next round.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's interesting too, because even with a second round quarterback in 69, they draft Bradshaw the next year.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, those eight interceptions, his two touchdowns just didn't do it for Chuck Noel, I guess.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's so bad.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: You just gotta keep throwing stuff at the wall at that point.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because they draft Joe Gillam later, too.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, and honestly, that's not a bad strategy.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's worked very more recently for the Patriots.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: They did the same thing, drafted a bunch of young quarterbacks, and saw who, you know, figure out who which one was the best.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, they they definitely uh at least there's a plan, right?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's a plan in place.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's 69, and you can think, well, maybe it's not quite come together.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: In 72, things start to really come together because Chuck Dole has had a couple years, a couple drafts now under his belt.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: He's starting to weed out the lesser talent, getting better talent.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Bill Nunn is doing his thing, get funneling them players that they're able to get later in the draft.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so Franco Harris is the first round.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's a first round pick, he's a 13th pick overall.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's from Penn State.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge get.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's still they're still drafting the 13th in 72, but you know it, it it's it's it's improvement, you know.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Joe Gillam, like I said, in the 11th round and Steve Furness.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the big thing about Franco is it seems like when Franco gets there, they start winning.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's kind of what the Chief says.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: He says, before Franco got here, we didn't win much.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Since he got here, we don't lose.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the paper actually said that the Steelers really wanted a guy named Willie Buchanan, but the Packers drafted him early.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: Willie Buchanan was a corner.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think I don't know if he's in the Hall of Fame, but he actually played very well for the Packers for years.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: But that was kind of when the Packers stunk.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and and people have to remember, too, that in 1972, having uh like a like a franchise running back was the way to go, yeah.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe more important than having a franchise quarterback at that point, or or at least equally important.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was a huge deal.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: You needed you needed to have like a quality running back.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: You weren't going to be any good if you if you couldn't run the ball back then.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: And uh just uh Chuck Knoll on Joe Gillam, head coach Chuck Knoll said, we were surprised to see a fine athlete of Joe's caliber still available in the 11th round.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we grabbed him.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, he was rated high, and we expected him to be long gone by the time we would have had a chance at him.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: So um Knowle said Gillen had one of the best throwing arms in the college ranks.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, Steelers draft is defended.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was most happy upon reading the scoreboard by Pat Livingston that the uh topic was the Pittsburgh Steelers college draft.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was glad to read that someone besides me gave the draft a favorable evaluation.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody knows what they're looking at.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: Some guy named Robert Adams from university from University Park, wherever that is.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is that Penn State?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: Was that a letter to the editor?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: So he actually, like Franco Harris, the number one pick, received an extremely high evaluation.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: I personally think he'll become one of the stars of professional football.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, look at that guy making a good production.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's kind of like the initial, that's like the seeds are being planted of this team.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then in 1974, um, it all kind of comes together.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we talked about like 1969.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't have immediate success.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: It took from really 1969 to 1974 for the team to really I mean, 1972 they have a glimpse of success, but in 1974, it really starts to come to fruition.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the best, like from I would say from on the field, off the field, every which way, everything really locks in.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: And what was that about four or five years?
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is that five years?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Took Noel about five years to get everything set up.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: So this is probably the best draft in an NFL by an NFL team in history.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: He really came all together for the Steelers.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: They get Lynn Swan, Jack Lambert, John Stalworth, um, Jim Allen, Mike Webster, James Wolfe, Rick Druschel, Alan Sirto, some Scott Garski, and Matt Geffert.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they actually pick up Donnie Schell, I guess, I think in free agency and undrafted free agency.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: So Lynn Swan becomes a Hall of Famer with all the Super Row MVPs.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: Jack Lambert's a Hall of Famer.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: Stallworth is the interesting one because Chuck Dole was really this is where Bill Nunn comes in.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: He says John Stallworth is going to be like a really good wide receiver.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: The other teams just don't know it because during Stalworth's workout, I guess the field it had rained and the field was a mess.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: So he ran a bad 40.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so um there weren't a lot, because he played at such this Alabama AM, such a small school, there was like one like they called a can of film, I guess one tape, you know, whatever of him.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: So Bill Nunn goes into the offices and takes the film and is like, yeah, yeah, I'll share it with all you guys later.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, that film was lost.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's just the darndest thing, which allows the uh Steelers to pick him up in the fourth round.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they all end up Stalworth is probably the PSD resistance of a nun pick.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um Phil Music, who I vaguely remember, uh drafted.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: He says the Steelers drafted well.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: This draft is an exercise not unlike thrusting your hand in a haystack and grabbing for a you know what.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: The Steelers got wide receiver, got receiver Lynn Swan in the opening round, and it was all downhill from there because there was little talent, and all indications are that Swan will be of immediate help.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's all downhill from there, I guess.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: All those other guys really stuck stinkville.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, but I mean, I I'm sure I would have had the same.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, who is this, you know, you know, Stalworth guy.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, and Lambert, Lambert too, went to went to Kent State Small School.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that was another guy they saw him practicing on the parking lot.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, oh, this guy, he's small, but he's a tough guy, you know.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, like you said, the Steelers are improving by this point, but but and they had already had the immaculate reception and some playoff appearances, but I think people still have it in their heads that like think about like when the Pirates had those good years in like the the 2010s, it was like, oh, this is the team's getting better, but like at this at the end of the day, it's not a breakthrough.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and at the end of the day, it's still the same ownership that you've come to know all these years, and you're kind of expecting it to eventually fail, and it does.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so probably at this point people still have that mentality.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the outside opinion on the Steelers is there's a great, great quote by Vince Lombardi.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Chuck Knoll is building one hell of a football team up in Pittsburgh, and that's by the Vince Lombardi, who might have been by 1974 late, the late Vince Lombardi.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he might have made that quote a few years earlier.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I, if if I remember correctly, that wasn't just like a random quote.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: He like wants he when he said that, he was like, you know, write that down.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like he like he wanted to be like he he literally wanted people to remember that he said that, and we do.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um after Super Bowl nine, uh Kurt Gowdy, you know, after course the win, he says, they're still a very young team.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: I would say their best years are still ahead of them.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: That team may have not reached its peak, and their future opponents are going to have some trouble.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: And Kirk Gowdy's recognizing the talent.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it really on the field things start to turn in 1972.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't imagine, like, we'll go back to those stats from 33 years.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: Were we looking at eight winning seasons, Tim?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you have a two- and eleven season in there.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just terrible football.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't imagine sitting in 1972 being even a fan, if you're just a fan of the team for five years, having to watch that one win.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: So eight winning seasons in 36 years, never won a playoff game, they weren't sniffed anything.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you're winning seven to what, six with a couple minutes to go.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you they're up six, they're up six.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: So six-nothing.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, oh man, we're finally gonna win it.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: The defense really cared uh carried us, and then gosh darn it if you know um what's his name?
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um the snake, you know, Ken Stabler doesn't have that scramble that puts uh you know the Raiders up seven to six, and you you it's the SOS, it's the same old Steelers, right?
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't blame Art Rudy Sr.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: for getting in the elevator and beating the traffic.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, no, and I think he I think he actually wanted to come down McGrath congratulate the team.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was I don't think he was leaving at the game.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, he was just going to the locker room to well, we lost the guest.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right, which was what everybody uh in the stadium thought too.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's funny, like again, back then, you know, the the Steelers uh I think there was I don't I don't know how many seconds left when they first got the ball.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe like 45 seconds or something, and they only needed a field goal.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like if that were today, you'd be like, oh, you have a really good chance, just manage your timeouts, and but that's not the way football worked back then.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you were allowed to hold the wide receivers and hit the quarterback.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the roles were very slanted against an offense.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: So to come back even from one point down, and kickers weren't that good either.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so to come back from one point down with like under a minute left, that was pretty like that was curtains.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just knew that was that was it.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, our Rooney coming down, that was totally um makes made sense given the time frame.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then too, like Super Bowl nine, finally the Steelers go from the city of losers to the city of champions.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there's some great interviews that it's so meaningful when they hand the trophy to the chief and you know, long suffering, and it's kind of like yo, emblematic of all the long-suffering fans and why people went crazy for it.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just good stuff.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that leads us to the current success of the Steelers, and really the turning point I'm gonna say was 1970 to 2025, since that's when this is being recorded.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: The Steelers record now is 504, 318, and 4.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: They have four ties, um, six Super Bowl wins, eight Super Bowl appearances, 11 Hall of Fame players, four from the 1974 class alone.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Chuck Knoll, Bill Cower, Mike Tomlin, and Mike McCarthy in what is that 50 some years almost?
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's over 50 years, they've had four coaches.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: How many how many coaches do you think the Cincinnati Bengals have had, or yeah, or the Arizona Cardinals, or you know, hell.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: How many how many cities have the Rams been in since then?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or the Raiders?
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good point.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean some of those teams have had more cities than the Steelers have had coaches.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: Very true.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it it so it's just you know, sticking with a coach, all these you know things have set up for all this success.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: 25 division wins, eight AFC championships won.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: They have 16 appearances, which ties them with Denver, and they're only behind New England in championship game appearances for the AFC.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um the Patriots have had 12 head coaches since 1970.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: Denver has had 15, and those are like probably comparable to the Steelers when like in terms of success successful AFC franchises.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they've had yeah, that's a lot more coaching change.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what what happened?
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: How did like you know, why did this happen?
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, a couple things uh changed in the NFL in college.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Bear Bryant actually retires December 15th, 1982, and he never was really integrated Alabama football the way that it became after that.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to know a fun fact about that game?
• 1:05:21
  unknown: Sure.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: Bruce Bruce Arians was the offensive coordinator.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, for Alabama?
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:28
  unknown: Huh.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the Southern schools finally figured out they begin to integrate.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it means less less African Americans attending HBCUs.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: And when you look at the list, like I actually will look at the list, I'm not gonna post it all here.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: From the 1990s, like you you like to even 7080s see like this massive amount of players like Doug Williams.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it starts even the 70s, it starts to change.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like Doug Williams gets drafted in the first round by Tampa Bay, and Jerry Rice in 85.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: And Walter Payton is a high draft pick in 75 from Jackson State.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see the philosophy starting to swing even back in the 70s.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the Steelers kind of lose their advantage that way.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, the change in philosophy, the building through the draft, developing players, um, four championships over a six-season span from Chuck Knoll.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they were the in 1979, the Steelers won the Super Bowl with all homegrown talent.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: You'll probably never see that again.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: Never.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that really like kind of solidified Dan Rooney about not trading away draft picks and keeping drafting.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: And this really was the Steelers' operating you know principles until I would say, you know, Mike Tomlin and Omar Khan kind of strayed away a little bit there in the 20s.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but they kind of still have this.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: They they they stick with a coach, although they they did go, you know, Art Jr.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: now obviously runs the team after Dan Rooney's death in 2017.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um they hired an old established offensive coach named Mike McCarthy.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's more of a little bit more towards win now right now.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um they got rid of Kenny Pickett pretty quickly for a top draft pick.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they don't develop players on offense like they used to, but I think the defense is still there with the development because um what's his name?
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: Nick Herbicks coming up behind you know the other outside linebackers.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but more reeling and dealing in the past.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't I still don't think they trade away their future draft picks as much as they should.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I don't know.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I I hope they kind of go back to more of the sticking with things, but I don't know how you do that with Mike McCarthy as head coach, since he's probably not gonna be here more than five years, I can imagine.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I think that you're seeing signs that they're that they are starting to revert back to the the Dan Rooney way of doing things.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and we talked about a little bit in that episode we did where I talked about the Ben Rothersberger injury, just shook up everything.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the you know getting the win now players uh um in the final years of Tomlin was because I don't think anybody knew it at the time except a few people, but Tomlin wasn't going to be there for very long.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that they wanted to just get the I think they wanted to win a Super Bowl so he could retire.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you wanted.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why you have Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers instead of a young quarterback, and why you have a Jalen Ramsey or or um Kenny Gainwell or whatever, just the other the other veteran players that they kept picking up.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think though that when you know when Omar Khan got in there, if you look at his first three or four drafts, they're actually pretty darn good.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's been a bunch of guys that have second contracts coming now from his first draft, and they've got some young offensive linemen who are pretty good.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: They've got some young talent on defense, like you said, guys like Herbig and Joey Porter Jr.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: and guys like that.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it I think they're starting to go back to it.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the thing that's still missing, as we always keep talking about, is the franchise quarterback, which is the same thing that was missing for Noah until that that you know, like you said, that Terry Bradshaw coin flip.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: Until 74, really.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like they the the quarterback really didn't develop until like like even halfway through the season, you know, was the joke.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: Gil Gillum was a starter halfway through the season.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and and your point about McCarthy not being here very long, I don't think that was I when they when they made I think that was the keep Aaron Rodgers happy, quite honestly.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, I disagree.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think I thought that at the time.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you would have asked me that like a week after the hire, I would have 100% agreed with you.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the whole point of that is we're gonna build from a young team the right way, but it's not gonna mean squat if we can't find and develop a young quarterback.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the whole point of McCarthy being here is to develop a young quarterback.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the whole point.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they bring in McCarthy for one year of Aaron Rodgers.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: They Aaron Rodgers aren't even guaranteed to come back, yeah.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that's the mentality.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, maybe that's me being like glass half-full kind of picture, because uh Art II hasn't exactly um proven himself to be his dad.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, or anywhere close.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's just me being too optimistic, but that's my optimistic view at least.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see if we'll see if that's right or wrong.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: We'll call you in four years, Tim, in 2020, 2030 or whatever.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_01: We can play this back and say what a genius Tim was, or what a what a dummy Tim was.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh that's that's it for this podcast.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for tuning in.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Check us out on Facebook and all the other podcast services you like.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's always a lot of fun talking about the Steelers and uh how they've changed over the years.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And um thank you for tuning in, and we'll catch you next time.